Why these 2 miners led the bloodbath

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Right eye money viters buddy
trap.

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Your screen here says it all for
today.

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Bloodbath mate, say bloodbath
today there is a very few

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companies with a little green
square there, which tells me

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it's a bad day the.
Market.

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It reminds me of that movie V
for Vendetta where it's just all

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black and white and then just
red blood everywhere.

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I can't say I ever watched that
10.

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Mate, it's just, it's just that
go, go Aurelia.

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Yeah, up 10%.
And this is just these

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oscillated greens look pretty
cool.

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This is just the miners as well,
right?

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So you can picture a very
similar graphic for the whole

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ASX and most of world markets as
well.

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It's not not been a a great day
for the old share market.

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Yeah, I bet your stockbrokers
wish they were like Trump and

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they could just say something
and move the market.

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Right boys?
What have we got?

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We got Remilius Mount Magnet
playing update today.

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What have you got?
Yeah.

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I mean, I guess that's one of
the, one of the stocks that is

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most down today is Remilius.
Yeah.

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Another one that is most down
is, is, is nickel mine.

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So I'm going to talk about them
and some potential royalty

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changes on the way to to them
and.

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We're going to talk about
Cobalt, the DRC and a bit of a

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tie in with the LSE as well.
Jeez, go love it.

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It's all happening.
Let's start in our patch,

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though.
Maddie Remelius.

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Oh, you'd say like my patch
considering I've got no idea

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internationally so we'll I'll
stick to.

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Me, we can educate each other,
mate.

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So yeah, Remelius has said
there, I think this graph says

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down 14%.
I think last time we checked

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they were down about 16%.
Obviously everything is down,

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but they've outperformed the
down.

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So they released their new, it's
hard to hard to win in mining,

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isn't it?
They're always being questioned

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about mine life and now they've
released a 17 year plan for

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Mount Magnet and they've been
hammered for it.

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So they're probably like, oh,
you can't win with this market.

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What were the the the features
that were most pronounced in in

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the commentary and and your sort
of analysis mate that.

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Yeah, well, like you, you if you
look at the it's all about

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comparing these numbers to what
they released in the previous

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sort of long term plan for Mount
Magnet.

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So they're saying now 17 year
period, 2.1 million oz.

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The the big changes and the
change that they hadn't

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considered before, which has
sort of changed pre production

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and everything is the pit cut
back at Erinitis.

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So they've effectively committed
to doing a massive bloody cut

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back there, extending the life
of that pit, delaying the

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underground and avoiding
sterilizing or so it's obviously

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impacted them in the short term
with the answer profile also

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really blown out the pre
production capital, but we'll

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talk about that in detail.
And yeah, so it's but there's a

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lot of little gaps to fill and
there's probably some read

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through of what their intentions
are going to be on possibly the

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deal front.
It's pretty gonna be pretty

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obvious when I show you what
their incentive will be.

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So we'll go through it.
It's bloody very, very

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interesting bit of value wiped
out.

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So as I said, 680,000 oz pit cut
back and there was a that's

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replacing this 280,000 oz
underground that they were going

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to essentially earlier.
So you look here upfront capital

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of 15 mil, but pre production
costs of 336 mil.

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So effectively sign the pit cut
back is 336 mil of cap like

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CapEx.
But the I guess the thing that I

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talked about in the call which
it it will become a bit of an

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accounting thing with all in
sustaining.

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So they're they're classing that
pit cut back if you scroll a bit

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down at the cross section as pre
production capital.

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But it is going through low
grade.

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So it would normally be classed
as an OpEx but there is lower

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grade material that they will be
mining and will be processing.

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But it is classed as pre
production.

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So it's a bit of a bit of an
accounting thing.

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So I like that whole 3.
It's essentially that 300 odd

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mil of cut back is not just 0g
per tonne.

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Can you give us a a ballpark of
what what sort of grey dirt

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they're going through?
Will it?

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Well, yeah, if you look at the
cross section here like it's you

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know point the green bits are .3
to .5, yeah, yellow bits are

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sort of half to 1.
So it's sub 1g dirt and a lot

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lower grade and there's
different patches of it.

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So it's how that'll all be
handled on the all in sustaining

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cost front.
So it's not like complete waste.

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But you know, the comments were,
it's like look, we could have

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gone underground earlier and we
could have like sterilised, like

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to think about the mine plan,
you know, from sort of 27

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onwards, 'cause you can see on
here like FY20 7 on this current

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mine plan, root drops from 200
to 136,000 oz for the annual oz

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output for the group.
So that's obviously when the,

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the cutback and everything's
gonna kick in.

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So, but they've obviously said,
right, if we do the cutback,

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we're not gonna sterilise as
much to in the long term.

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And we're setting it up to be a,
a 17 year plan for what they've

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got at the moment.
So it's, yeah, they're, they're,

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they're taking a short term pain
like, oh, essentially like over

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a few years pain for the mount
magnet hub for a longer term

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view on getting the most out of
the ore body, which is some

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something you don't really see
actually, like the, as always

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said, the best between the
client, the contractor and the

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asset.
It's hard to get 100%

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utilisation out of more than one
of them.

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So what's best for the ore body
ain't best for the share market

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sometimes.
So on a short term frame, So,

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and they're also upgrading the
mill.

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So it's currently 2,000,000
tonne.

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I'm pretty sure based on soft
dirt, because it's very hard

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dirt at mount magnet.
You'll get all the bomb ball

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index was historically it said
30.

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That's saying at the moment it's
about 20.

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So that's like on the very hard
scale.

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So they're saying they're going
to, they're going to add a

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bigger crusher, a sag mill,
bigger ball mill.

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And so it'll effectively treat
two and a half million tonne of

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hard dirt all the way up to
3,000,000 tonne of soft dirt and

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everything in between.
So getting oxide material and

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you can see how much the oxide
material drops off following

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that.
Once I get deeper in the pit,

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there's some big gaps of where
they need some oxide dirt to

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fill.
So I think that's where the

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appetite's gonna come.
What do you?

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Think in there, Maddie.
Oh mate, take your pick around

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the area essentially.
Who Who knows, who knows?

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We know they're pretty active on
the deal front usually and I

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think there's this is the base
case of what they've got at the

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moment.
Doesn't discount what is around

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the area.
And we know when we say the

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area, we know Remelius trucks
dirt like so they're the area

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can spend bloody 200 two 100K
radius easily.

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And they'll they'll track a dirt
because the incremental value

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they'll get out of increasing
throughput from 2 1/2 to 2.8

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with some oxide dirt that they
can feed through will be where

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the benefit will come.
So who knows what they'll what

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they'll look at.
So yeah, it's the how do you how

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do you predict a bloody 17 year
mine plan?

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You do it the best you can.
You say like, oh, they're all in

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sustaining cost spikes in FY20
9, but you just don't know

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what's going to be in the
portfolio then.

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But they've taken AI like that.
They've taken a long term view

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of the ore body to set that up
for long term.

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They've got half a billion in
cash.

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You got 400 million in Spartan
shares at at the moment.

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What they do with Spartan
shares?

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Oh nice.
Like I, I would think looking at

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this, adding the Spartan dirt to
be great because it lifts the

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grade.
But are they going to cough up

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in whatever shape or form that
amount of money to get the

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Spartan dirt?
Probably thinking not.

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The easier win for them would be
acquiring some oxide material

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from somewhere, some easy wind
pits to feed in and offset the

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hardness of the mount, the
Erinitus dirt.

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So in the future, so do you
remember?

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Do you remember when they
released the plan last time

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around Mount Magnet it it
actually came amidst the the

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media speculation that they were
going to do a deal with Corolla.

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They were in exclusivity with
Corolla.

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Then they released their long
term Mount Magnet mine plan and

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at the time I thought their
rationale for releasing it was,

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yeah, it was actually related
to, you know, just just just

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some, some potential kind of,
you know, deal deal strategy or

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or requirement in some respects.
So they're updating it now and

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it's it's it's the market's sort
of somewhat disappointed

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relative to what it was before.
But I wonder if there's, I

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wonder if it's part of a, you
know, a deal thematic that's

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underway at the moment again
with this company.

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Yeah, yeah, who who knows?
I'll just like could use I I

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don't think they're going for
Spartan to use.

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Do you agree?
Disagree.

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What do you think?
Ding, Ding, Ding, while we're on

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it on, on Spartan.
No, no, I, I don't think what I

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think the market's just taken,
you know, on board very heavily

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today is that very near term
production, that very immediate

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term CapEx bill, you know that
300 + 1,000,000 and that all in

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sustaining, you know, going up
with to over 3000 bucks.

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And I think it's that sort of
short term mindset that the

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market is purely fixated on.
And to your point, Trev, and,

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and what you said earlier as
well, Maddie, it, it could very

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well be something more in, in
the plans.

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You know, that's sort of my plan
looks like it'll fit something

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in quite neatly down the track.
Just kind of remains to me

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saying what that is and at what
price that could potentially

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come in.
The war, yeah, I disagree with

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you guys.
I think, I think they're only

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20% of Spartan like and yes,
there's a scenario where it gets

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too expensive to and you know,
Spartan kind of have to go to

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line, but Spartan on a relative
basis has underperformed other

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gold names last six months.
Like you're going to move, you

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know, you, you, you're going to,
if you do want to move on them,

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you want to convince the market
that you're not going to move on

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them and then they underperform
and then you acquire them.

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I think that's what I think
that's what they're doing like.

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Yeah, the biggest thing we'll go
against them is Spartan resource

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growth, I guess, because that'll
help them perform.

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00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,240
So yeah, there's a bit of a bit
of a tug of war going on there

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which you think's going to
happen.

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Yeah, the the lens of them not
pursuing Spartan isn't isn't you

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know, I haven't arrived there
from this mine plan that hasn't

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changed the thinking massively.
It's just a a sort of price and

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dilution kind of piece.
Yeah, I take your point on, on

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00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,920
the last sort of six months.
But yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a

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tough one to call.
There's always so many moving

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parts with these big M&A deals.
And this would be, at this

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point, essentially a merger
rather than a takeover just

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about, you know?
Yeah, very much so.

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00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,640
And look, in addition to that
mill expansion, which the

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science is going to be about 80
million bucks, 5 for extra

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water, tend to upgrade the power
for it all.

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00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,720
Like looking to put in like a
really up it to I think it's 32

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MW hybrid power, solar battery,
wind.

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00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:27,760
So Jesus Christ hasn't got that
good.

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Tim Taylor and CBA written all
over it, lads.

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00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,360
Couldn't have, couldn't put it.
Tim's probably already called.

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00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,240
Yeah, he's locked that one up.
Yeah.

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00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,600
I think that is Remilius
effectively talking to CBA in

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that line saying, hey, can you
just give us a call?

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00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:43,840
It's it's his bread and butter,
right?

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00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,160
Oh mate, like if this is this is
his wheelhouse bread and butter.

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Mopping up the gravy off the
plate.

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00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,960
Just stop standing.
Bread and butter play for Timmy

223
00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:53,400
Taylor and so very.
I didn't.

224
00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,240
I didn't appreciate how
substantial cross boundary

225
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,360
energy are mate until having a
beer with with Tim.

226
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,200
They do some big ticket power
items mate.

227
00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,880
Come from especially well years,
would have probably seen a few

228
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,400
over in Africa in your trip.
Mate, come on.

229
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,280
Cooler, Yeah.
Enormous.

230
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:11,920
Just signed, just signed a big
one there.

231
00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,040
Oh mate, what more branding do
you need?

232
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:16,920
How good's that?
It's crazy.

233
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,560
I'll just get the copper as it
comes out of the hole and Chuck

234
00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:21,520
it in the power plant.
It'd be bloody great.

235
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,080
Yeah.
So that's where are we at?

236
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:27,800
So.
Penny, you had some.

237
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,080
Oh yeah, there's always
expiration potential, so and

238
00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:34,600
that and that's probably what's
not.

239
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,920
And they alluded to it on the
call, like talking about, you

240
00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,880
know, like break of day is
positively reconciling at the

241
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:43,240
moment.
Like God, I think the initial

242
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,280
open pit was coming out at 9
grams.

243
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,320
Still got the underground to
come off that that they have

244
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,520
backed in.
They've got drilling to the

245
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,280
north to do.
They're like you look at the

246
00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,360
tenement there, there's plenty
of potential on that break a day

247
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,360
tenement like they've just hit,
was it half a meter at 22 1/2

248
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,440
grams at the north of Penny.
So there's, you know, potential

249
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,200
potential extensions there like
just on on what they've got part

250
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,960
that's 50 meters past the end of
the proposed development.

251
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,480
So might be a bit extra there
and Simon Galaxy at mount

252
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:16,800
magnets.
I like you don't even know you

253
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,920
don't know what they're going to
get organically that they can

254
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,040
add to fill that gap in FY20 7
potentially.

255
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,160
You don't know what they're
going to pick up for scrap or

256
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:31,920
cash for some potential oxide
opportunities to both fill that

257
00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:37,440
gap and lift the mil throughput
from 2 1/2 to 2.7 if they can

258
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,960
blend some oxide with it when
they're in all the hard stuff.

259
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:45,360
So yeah, that's pretty much
where I think they're at.

260
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,400
So it's yeah, it's odd.
They've given themselves mine

261
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:55,000
life, bro still then Rebecca
Rose baked into this as well to

262
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,160
come on.
I think it's FY20 7 when we're

263
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,000
going to see that.
So that's so I'll get that

264
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,000
right.
FY20 8.

265
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,040
Sorry.
You feel that the market is

266
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,200
wanting that to to pick up the
slack a little bit.

267
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,680
There's a bit more reliance on
it.

268
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,360
Well, there there is on that on
that chart.

269
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,560
Like that's the big contributor
to their answer profile.

270
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:19,200
So I don't like God in terms of
cash position.

271
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,200
Like, you know, they're still
going to the cash they're going

272
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,560
to still make in the next in the
with the penny break a day

273
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,280
should we hit together until
penny runs out?

274
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,560
Like I think what the for
Rebecca Rowe I think had pre

275
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,680
production of 200 and some 200
low 2 hundreds for the pre

276
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,960
production.
So Chuck a bit of mail on it if

277
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,760
you need to.
Their PFS was actually from the

278
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,280
streets at all.
It was, you know, underwhelming.

279
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,200
But I've heard comments thought
their costs that they actually

280
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,320
use for Rebecca Rowe were just a
bit more realistic than some

281
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,040
studies use.
So hence the low 20% IRR for it

282
00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,800
though yeah, I think that's
where they're at.

283
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,520
We'll see See what happens on
the Remelius train.

284
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:04,480
I'd say.
I'd love to see these.

285
00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:10,280
I can with I think what is it,
60,000 BCM 6?

286
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,360
Sorry, 60 million BCMS.
A waste to behold from Erinitus

287
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,040
for that cutback.
If like a bloody MMS logos on

288
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,000
all those trucks, that'll make
me happy.

289
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,960
Can you, can you think of
extrapolating what they did at

290
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,800
my rate, like get into the ore
early, like along to the scale

291
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,520
of 60 million BCMS?
What that would mean for

292
00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,520
Remilius's mind playing if MMS
do the cutback quicker?

293
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,040
I'm connecting the dos mate and
it's early a cash.

294
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:43,640
Flow unbelievable.
So I just yeah, it's a no, it's

295
00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:45,520
a no brainer for me.
I'm pretty I'm pretty much

296
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,120
setting up the whole amount
magnet with money in mind.

297
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,760
Sponsors today.
Jeez.

298
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,760
Like mate it could make that
production profile look sexy.

299
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,120
So you can already see it in the
name.

300
00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:02,080
MMS, Mount Magnet Superstars.
People are mining Sims, Mount

301
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,160
magnet superstars.
There's a lot of places you can

302
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:08,320
go with this one, but what I
know is that when I need to mine

303
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:13,440
and move the dirt, I call MMS.
And Trav, he pretty much every

304
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:15,800
weekend.
Yeah, he's mining all the time.

305
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:17,520
Oh, I love it.
Right up.

306
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,320
This is interesting.
Cut the cobalt.

307
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:30,480
It's packing flavour.
Yeah, I suppose this kind of be

308
00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:37,480
called Cut Cobalt Unit Trust.
They've gone with Cobalt

309
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,800
Holdings, but I think you could
be on to something.

310
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,400
They matter.
So we'll we'll get a bit of a

311
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:43,440
bit.
I'm just going to leave that

312
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,360
there.
We'll get a bit of a petition

313
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,800
going and maybe we'll get a name
change happening, but.

314
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,560
Spot to cut.
I'm going to talk about

315
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,760
everything going on in the, in
the broader cobalt market and

316
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,480
then wrap up with the the cut
piece of it, Maddie.

317
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,240
So no surprise to anyone, cobalt
prices in the gutter and it has

318
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,800
been for for some time.
I heard in inflation adjusted

319
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,520
terms, it's essentially at the
the lowest price.

320
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,839
It really has been on on record.
So that's, you know, centuries

321
00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:15,040
sort of plus type of time frame.
It's pretty, pretty bad and it's

322
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:19,000
led to some big decisions from
from governments, namely the

323
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,720
DRC.
Is the price in the in the

324
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:26,280
gutter just as a result of A the
copper mine expansions in the

325
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,400
DRC and then B the, you know,
nickel, nickel, cobalt kind of

326
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,560
lateral operations that rapidly
got produced in Indonesia?

327
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,080
Yeah, more supply than demand at
the end of the day, but demand

328
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,640
has grown.
So it's just that supply has

329
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:46,120
grown so, so strongly.
So we'll start with what's

330
00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:49,560
happening in in the DIC.
So in, in late Feb, the

331
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,840
government announced that they'd
suspended cobalt exports for

332
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,640
four months.
The DIC is the biggest producer.

333
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,480
They have about 75% market share
of the world's supply.

334
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,400
So they're a massive, massive
player to to the extent that not

335
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,880
many other countries are.
When it comes to the various

336
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,880
commodities, the Hard Rock
commodities out there, the ramp

337
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:14,480
up of mines like Seymox, Kisanfu
was a big one. 10K from the room

338
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,520
as well is a big one.
And then you've got the

339
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:20,400
expansions of all these other
copper operations has flooded

340
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,880
the market.
And to get a sense of the scale

341
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,920
so people kind of know that the
rough tons we're talking about C

342
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,800
Mock, the biggest producer in
the world produces 630,000 tons

343
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,600
of copper and 110,000 tons of
cobalt.

344
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,480
That was the 2025 target, the
midpoints.

345
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:38,520
And that's just across 2
operations.

346
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,160
The other key players are
Glencore and Arg.

347
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,280
So that's Eurasia Resources
Group, the the Kazaks the rest

348
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,840
of the world supplies.
So roughly 25% is made-up of

349
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,400
bits and pieces all around the
world.

350
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,200
You've got the Indonesian nickel
mines moving from next to

351
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,480
nothing just a few years ago to
about 10% of global supply.

352
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,720
That doubled in 2024 alone, just
in one year.

353
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,120
Doubled again purely as a.
Byproduct.

354
00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:10,800
So it's, it's a byproduct in
the, in the VRC assets as well.

355
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,880
I mean, they're, yeah, all those
companies are hunting for the

356
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,360
copper, but the, the cobot's
there.

357
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,840
Yeah, the the economics looked
very, very good at say Kisanfu,

358
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,440
which is one of the heaviest
cobalt to copper ratios in the

359
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,200
world.
When, when Cobalt's it's sort of

360
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,240
50 thousand U.S. dollars a ton.
Those economics look very

361
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,760
different when cobalt is down
7075%.

362
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,680
So they they, they alone kind of
not many others were really

363
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:45,760
thinking so cobalt heavy, but
98% of cobalt is if you're, if

364
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,480
you're counting seem like in it
98 percent is by product supply.

365
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,240
So not many.
Between nickel and Cobold in the

366
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,320
sheet, how Marin.
Marin is still going.

367
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,520
Phenomenal, isn't it?
Yeah, I don't think, I don't

368
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,320
think Marin Marin's moving the
needle much on global copper

369
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,520
supply.
But it's it's Australia's

370
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:04,720
biggest one.
Go Australia.

371
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,600
Yeah, I'm not sure how
profitable the operation is at

372
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,280
the moment, but it's it's still
running as as far as we know.

373
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,760
So, yeah.
And just to run out on on

374
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,840
demand, a lot of sort of
forecasts were pointing to 20%

375
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,320
growth this year.
That's very substantial.

376
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,040
You know, take any kind of
forecast with a pinch of salt,

377
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,560
but that is substantial growth
by by any kind of.

378
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,720
Measure demand goes up because
the price came down.

379
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,880
You'd, you'd think, but you
know, LFP has been the, the

380
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,960
chemistry winning outright, but
that is a, a huge part of the

381
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:37,520
debate, right?
How do you think about it?

382
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,960
If you're the DRC government?
It's it's a balancing act

383
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,440
between not wanting to Jack up
the price crazy high and

384
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,080
disincentivize OEMs, battery
makers or car makers are

385
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,360
actually using the stuff as
well.

386
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:52,280
I mean you got the Super alloy
part of the market as well.

387
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,680
That's sort of 20 to 30% of the
market, a bit less than that,

388
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,600
but 70% of the market is, is
batteries.

389
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,800
So it's a, it's a balancing act.
So the, I mean the cobalt price

390
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,160
did bounce on on the back of
this.

391
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,720
You've got a few different
exchanges measuring it in, in

392
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:07,840
Europe over the past couple
weeks.

393
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,640
It's up about 25%.
It's up in, in China as well.

394
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,760
Remains to be seen if the OEMs
actually have the supply to last

395
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,960
them four months or if we're
going to see a bit of a tick up

396
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,440
again as we get to the end of of
that period.

397
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,040
And on the equity side of it,
ERG isn't listed.

398
00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,120
Glencore, it's kind of
irrelevant, you know.

399
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,080
So Seamock's the only one we can
really go off and they're up

400
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,840
about 15% actually since the end
of February.

401
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:34,640
So they've had a tick up on the
back of this too.

402
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,040
So what?
What's the export being gonna

403
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,520
actually do?
This is a, you know, kind of

404
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:45,000
open for interpretation, right?
If you can think how this

405
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:49,040
impacts the market, Maddie.
So we, we spoke a lot when BHB

406
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,400
were considering putting nickel
waste into care and maintenance

407
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,600
and shutting it down at well
over a year ago now.

408
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,240
And you know, you get into the
realm of politics.

409
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,800
But at the end of the day, a
government's ability to

410
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,600
manipulate a commodity and a
smaller commodity than nickel.

411
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,040
This is cobalt in which it has a
big stake.

412
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,560
You know, 75% is is pretty
complicated, but you need to

413
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,480
take a long term view and I
think that's the lens.

414
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,440
So what's going to happen over
the next four months?

415
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,880
To start with the XDRC
producers, the people in

416
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,040
Indonesia for instance, they're
going to make a bit more money

417
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,760
and I've got Pretty Little doubt
there will be some people in the

418
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,880
DRC making money out of this one
way or another.

419
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,160
Well, I noticed the the price of
hydroxide shut up because that's

420
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,960
coming from the the copper in
the DRC.

421
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,680
But what you what comes out of
Indonesia is MHP and where is

422
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,840
that prices that hadn't moved as
much.

423
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:50,040
The Indonesian yeah, stuff,
yeah, I didn't focus on that too

424
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,600
much.
But I mean, let's kind of say

425
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,440
over four months what it kind of
does because it's it's been a

426
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,440
bit complicated through actions
that the Indonesians have

427
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,240
actually done, which you might,
yeah, talk about soon as well.

428
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,840
But at the end of four months,
right, you're going to have big

429
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,080
stockpiles from from all of
these companies.

430
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,000
And this happened with C Mock in
2023.

431
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,800
There's a tax dispute with the
DRC.

432
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:13,960
They built up, you know, nearly
a year's worth of stockpiles and

433
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,240
then just washed them out
through 24.

434
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,320
And that's part of the reason
that the market came off.

435
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,160
There's, there's already massive
stockpiles of, of cobalt

436
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,800
hydroxide.
Like if the stockpiles aren't

437
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,960
currently with the miners and a
lot of them, I mean, we, we were

438
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,480
in the DRC, we saw like all the
mines we visited where they,

439
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,280
they're producing a cobalt
byproduct.

440
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,520
It's just bags and bags and bags
of cobalt hydroxide there.

441
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,280
And they're waiting for better
prices before, before selling.

442
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,360
So we saw heaps of stockpiling
happening at from the miners and

443
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:43,000
then talking to people at at,
you know, CMOC or whatever,

444
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,400
they're selling it to the OEMs
in China who are taking the

445
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,960
opportunity to stockpile
themselves at very low prices.

446
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,920
So one way or another, there's a
buildup of surplus of these bags

447
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,720
of cobalt hydroxide.
And if it's not actually going

448
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,200
into an end product like it's an
overhang on the market at the

449
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,040
end of the day.
What's cobalt hydroxide look

450
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,800
like?
Bags.

451
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,800
Bags of like a very dark
coloured kind of powdered dust

452
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,440
and it unlike your lithium
hydroxide and very long life as

453
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,000
long as it's in a moisture free
environment.

454
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,800
So if it's if it's in a shed you
can you can store it for ages

455
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:15,760
like.
Happy days.

456
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,560
Those bags are those bags are
like 1/3 cobalt.

457
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,960
They need a bit of work on them
still to be done, but that's,

458
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,800
that's the product that's
getting shipped from the DRC.

459
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,880
And to that point on stockpiles,
the the Chinese state, I don't

460
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,120
know exactly in, in what form,
but they were stockpiling over

461
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:36,440
six months ago, strategic
reserves of cobalt.

462
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,800
We don't do that in the West,
but that's a whole another kind

463
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,520
of topic.
Longer term, if, if the DRC does

464
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,560
want to keep prices up, it's,
it's pretty complicated, right?

465
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,120
Because so hypothetically they
were able to, you're just going

466
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:52,480
to encourage people to go more
down the LFP route, which

467
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,600
doesn't use cobalt or the
various other bits of battery

468
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,480
technology or chemistry that are
non cobalt based.

469
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,080
And you know, we've seen LFP
dominance surge.

470
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:06,600
So in EV share, they're in the,
the mid kind of 40s percentage

471
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,120
of all cars sold.
And if you look specifically in

472
00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:12,560
China, because they don't care
as much about range and stuff,

473
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,000
we're talking about close to 70%
relies on that chemistry.

474
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,600
And LFPS even gained market
share in best in stationary

475
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,480
storage batteries, which a lot
of people didn't think it would

476
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,480
for a while.
They thought, you know,

477
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:31,640
basically on a, a sort of land
space type discussion, you would

478
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,520
want to go with a denser
chemistry because it wouldn't be

479
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,840
taking up and your real estate
cost would be lower, these sorts

480
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,320
of things.
But again, LFP is just becoming

481
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:42,680
dominant.
So I'm very curious to see in

482
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,360
time what sort of market share
the various chemistries have.

483
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,960
Nobody knows And it already
looks every year it kind of

484
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,040
looks different.
And it does seem LFP is winning

485
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,120
on all kind of regards and
that's becoming the dominant

486
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:55,040
one.
But this is a market that's seen

487
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,600
pretty significant changes from
time to time.

488
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,680
So yeah, an open-ended one on on
that front.

489
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:03,360
What's next mate?
Like.

490
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,080
It's it's complicated at Travan.
I think there's one more thing

491
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,120
we kind of have to to pace in
here and it's the the

492
00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:15,360
deteriorating, deteriorating
situation in the Eastern DRC.

493
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:19,160
I don't don't talk too much
about it, but again, heaps of

494
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,160
moving parts.
But you know, suffice to say

495
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:26,360
it's not gone well for the DRC.
It's a bit of a geopolitical

496
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,640
mess across the world really
not, not just in that part of

497
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,640
the world.
But the DRC urgently needs cash.

498
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,600
And it's probably not a complete
coincidence that this has

499
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,720
happened now.
And I've, I've got Pretty Little

500
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,960
doubt that, like I said before,
that the DRC government one way

501
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,120
or another will try and profit
off this somehow because they,

502
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,920
they need to kind of fund their
efforts over there.

503
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,080
And I'm sure they're going to be
looking at other type

504
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,880
discussions like we saw last
week, potential conversations

505
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,360
with the US to try and tie up
mineral deals like we saw with

506
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:02,560
Ukraine.
Yeah, it's, it's a tough one.

507
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,640
There were rumors that they
wanted to look for ex Chinese

508
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,120
support, which was very
interesting because I think 2/3

509
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,840
of the cobalt producers and a
lot of the miners in the country

510
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,720
are Chinese groups.
Well, there they're certainly

511
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,640
majority non Western.
You know, Glencore is really the

512
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,840
only one left there.
So, yeah, very, very tough to

513
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,560
see where that goes on the
specific cobalt kind of front.

514
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,400
Maybe they do an export quota.
Maybe you're giving each company

515
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:34,440
a certain amount of cobalt that
they can specifically export and

516
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,080
potentially to the point on the
actual material that they are

517
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,880
producing, maybe they're forced
them to go downstream like we

518
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,320
saw in Indonesia.
Maybe they want more value add

519
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,400
in country.
It's a kind of tough bargain to

520
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,760
kind of drive when you're not
making any money on it, but it

521
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,840
remains the same Here we go on
that one.

522
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:58,360
What about yellow cake 2.0 or
brown cake 2.0 or dark dark

523
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:00,000
coloured cake?
Too dark coloured cake.

524
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,560
This is, this is the interesting
stuff, Maddie.

525
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,120
It's very interesting.
Yeah, I found this fascinating.

526
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:07,200
So there's a group led by a guy
called Jake Greenberg and they

527
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,040
want to list a cobalt holding
company.

528
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,800
Like I said, at the top, Jake
was part of the team that

529
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,040
founded Yellow Cake.
Every uranium bull knows Yellow

530
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,760
Cake.
They've got about £21.7 million

531
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:21,600
of uranium locked up in a, in a
vault somewhere.

532
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,000
And he wants to repeat that
recipe for cobalt.

533
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,840
And he's talking about this
being out of loved.

534
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,160
He's talking about this, you
know, he, he, he talks about in

535
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,520
the context of mean reversion
being a moving kind of principle

536
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,080
in financial markets with cobalt
being no exception.

537
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,920
So they're looking to raise £180
million and list in London in

538
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,160
May.
So it's happening quite soon and

539
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,120
they've actually tied up a deal
with Glencore, who reportedly

540
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,280
take a 10% stake in the company,
as well as agreeing to sell

541
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:58,440
about US $200 million worth of
cobalt to the company over a a

542
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,200
undefined long period of time.
Yeah.

543
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,680
So effectively the same as what
Yellow Cakes deal is.

544
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,520
Yellow Cake have the contract to
purchase 100 million US of

545
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,840
uranium from Kazaam Prom every
year.

546
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,800
So I assume they're going to
structure a very similar thing

547
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,840
with Glencore.
Would you check in, Maddie?

548
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,320
Jeez, you're not filling me with
confidence, Copper.

549
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,240
With all those kind of thoughts
in my mind, I kind of admire

550
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,120
that.
The counter cyclical thinking

551
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,520
like I'd I'd have to do a lot
more research but.

552
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,400
Well tipped in the fucking spot
at the wrong time like your

553
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,320
soldered it went down bloody
another friggin 50%.

554
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,920
Yeah, I mean, it's safe to say
most people hate cobalt, right?

555
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,280
Like we've we've been saying it
for for literally years now,

556
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,000
like battery makers looking to
make batteries that don't have

557
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,280
cobalt because of all the the
artisanal related challenges in

558
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,280
the DRC.
You know, you can go from one

559
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,960
challenge to the next.
So yeah, it's thinking outside

560
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,560
the box.
It's thinking outside the box.

561
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,680
They're like, and usually,
usually our industry is self

562
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,320
correcting, you know, lower
prices and then you get a

563
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,000
contraction of of supply and
then you and then all of a

564
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,240
sudden prices go higher again.
But when 98% of your production

565
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,400
is by product, you don't have
the same market forces in place

566
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,680
that constrict supply.
If anything, supply is growing

567
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,640
because the world is demanding
more or copper.

568
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,560
And as a result of that, yeah,
you don't have the same mean

569
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,280
reversion as Jake would put it
on on your side necessarily.

570
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:27,760
You've got to take that into
account.

571
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,800
I'd I'd look at, if you look at
the journey of yellow cake and

572
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,360
spat, probably pretty similar to
this.

573
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,440
A lot of their pounds were
purchased early on at lower

574
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:37,840
prices.
So for 200 million, you're

575
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,000
getting a lot more cobalt.
That's how they build the build

576
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,320
the size of the trust and yadda
yadda.

577
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,800
And then sell the bloody thing.
That's what you know about spat.

578
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,600
So it's it's a similar starting
point of what when they probably

579
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,800
started the Sprott Physical
Uranium Trust.

580
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,360
It takes tons out of the market.
So to a, to a certain degree, it

581
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,440
helps their 'cause if they can
do it, you know, but what degree

582
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,120
can you do that?
And yeah, I just under score

583
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,960
what you just said there, Trev.
It's a, it's a byproduct and

584
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,400
that adds a whole layer of
complexity to this.

585
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,720
We haven't seen any supply
response from what we've seen,

586
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:15,840
hardly any.
I mean, they're stockpiling it

587
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,480
at mine sites, but limited in
terms of minds being canned and

588
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,520
those sorts of things.
Yeah.

589
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:28,240
So when's that or is it may, may
watch this space, very

590
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,680
interesting, very interesting
also.

591
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,600
So that 190,000,000 lbs.
Sorry, in the flight that's

592
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,720
going to cover what they are
going to buy off Glencore

593
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,440
effectively are there 200 US to
190,000,000 lbs with

594
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,600
roundabouts?
Yeah, but they said long term,

595
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,240
so I'm not sure when those 200
would be paid.

596
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,000
Right up it's.
It's light on details at this

597
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,440
point, but we'll see.
Brought out Speaking of

598
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,240
something that makes cobalt as a
bloody by product nickel.

599
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,440
If you check Nickel Industries
and it's one of the companies

600
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,480
probably most, most punitively
attacked for its market cap by

601
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,320
the by the gyrations today in
the stock market, it is down in

602
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,920
today it was down about 19%.
And this is a, this is like, you

603
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,160
know, before, before today's
movement talking about a $3

604
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,280
billion market cap smashed down
19%.

605
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,360
So that's a, that's a whopping
move for a company of that size.

606
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,920
And it was such a substantial
intraday move that it triggered

607
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,760
a speeding ticket from, from the
mighty ASX.

608
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,800
And it was the response to ASX's
question that I think we have to

609
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,960
talk about because it kind of
provided me to do some research.

610
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,760
Question 3 in the speeding
ticket from ASX says, is there

611
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,360
any other explanation that the
company may have for the recent

612
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,280
trading in the securities of the
company to which Nickel

613
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,160
Industries pointed to?
Firstly, there was a sale of

614
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:51,400
approximately 178 million shares
by their shareholder called PT

615
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,640
Haram Energy in a block trade at
about $0.69 per share.

616
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,560
And secondly, they point to,
I'll quote this, the press is

617
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,320
widely reported that the
Indonesian government has

618
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,160
released a proposal for public
consultation that would increase

619
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,040
royalties for operators across
multiple commodities, including

620
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,120
nickel.
The current royalty rate on

621
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,960
nickel ore is 10%, whilst the
proposed royalty range for

622
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,560
public consultation is 14 to
19%, depending on the prevailing

623
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,440
equal price at the time.
Based on the information

624
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,360
released, the proposed royalty
would be 14% of the current

625
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,440
nickel price.
At this point in time, the

626
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,840
proposals have not been
legislated.

627
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,760
However, should this change, the
company will continue to fully

628
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,800
comply with Indonesia's laws.
IS.

629
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,360
Is PT Haram energy Indonesian?
It it is.

630
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,160
It's a yeah, it's a very
interesting.

631
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:44,160
Coal company, Yeah.
Nickel or that that wording.

632
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,400
What do you think?
Well, I, I did a bunch of, of

633
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,160
research that and there's,
there's varying kind of changes

634
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,040
to royalty regimes on all of the
nickel products, including

635
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,400
nickel ores and metal nickel pig
eye and MHP all, all of all of

636
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,800
the above.
So is the conversation being had

637
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:05,840
that there'll be an increase in
royalties on Matt, Pig Eye and

638
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:11,120
any any further processed metal?
Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll add some

639
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,080
context here.
First, it was, it was Reuters

640
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,040
that led the Western media with
the coverage of of this

641
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,760
potential royalty hike as I've
highlighted here.

642
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,800
But the, the primary sources
actually comes from Indonesia's

643
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,280
Ministry of Energy and Mineral
Resources on the 8th of March.

644
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,920
So that was that was Saturday.
So it was kind of fascinating

645
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,960
how nickel mines share price was
largely unaffected all through

646
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,080
trade on Monday.
And then Reuters story landed

647
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,520
kind of aftermarket Australian
time, the clever shareholder

648
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,280
Haram, they block out their
stock at $0.69 and when I last

649
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,639
checked the stock was about
$0.63, so lower than they

650
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:47,000
blocked it out even though that
the shareholder did a pretty

651
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,719
substantial discount to last.
So breakdown this actual

652
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,800
government proposal that's been
reported upon.

653
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,000
In a nutshell, Indonesia.
They actually had elections last

654
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,720
year and as of October, the new
president and administration was

655
00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:05,160
sworn in.
It sounds a bit abstract, but

656
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,080
the the the president who was
sworn in, President Prabowo

657
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,200
probably saying that wrong, but
his policies, they included a

658
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,640
lot of popular ideas such as
free meals for school children

659
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,040
and pregnant women.
And these kind of popular

660
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,120
policies are, you know, they,
they resonate with the public.

661
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,600
But Indonesia's a huge country,
right?

662
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,080
And there's over 200 million
people.

663
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,720
So that's a lot of food.
Especially pregnant women,

664
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:33,600
right?
Too, I suppose the context of

665
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,560
this proposed royalty change is,
is honestly like, think of the

666
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,360
budgetary implications of a new
president's pretty substantial

667
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,280
popular spending agenda.
You need more revenue to spend

668
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,320
more.
So I've looked pretty hard to

669
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,480
find the, the actual kind of
guidance put out from the, the

670
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,880
ministry itself in relation to
these royalty changes.

671
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,440
But I, I failed in that
endeavor.

672
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,280
I found pretty good secondary
sources.

673
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,920
The articles that talk about
this, even when you Google

674
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,960
Translate the Indonesian ones,
they, they all source like

675
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,680
quotes from the director of
minerals and coal at the

676
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,080
ministry by the name of our tree
Win, win, win.

677
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,040
I know himself.
So I think, I think there's

678
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,680
credibility to all of this.
There's two regulations that are

679
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,560
suggested to be revised. 11
relates to the coal royalty

680
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,080
rates and the other one to, to
the nickel product royalties

681
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,360
too.
And like Nickel Industries says

682
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,080
in their response to ASX, that
nickel ore royalty is proposed

683
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:29,000
to change from a fixed 10% to a
range of 14 to 19% depending on

684
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,280
the, on the reference nickel
price.

685
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,600
They, they, they referenced this
HMA nickel price, you know, U.S.

686
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,080
dollars per ton.
You can see that scale of, of

687
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,680
what the, the royalty would
actually change to based on,

688
00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:42,760
based on that, that rate sort of
the, the higher the price, the

689
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,920
more you got to pay.
And it doesn't stop at just

690
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,600
nickel or sadly lucky.
You touched on JD, there's the

691
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,160
downstream is, is going to take
a hit too.

692
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,320
So you've got royalty rates for
ferro nickel and nickel, nickel

693
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,640
and pig iron are currently 2%
and 5% respectively.

694
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,960
But this proposal would see them
lift to a range of five to 7%

695
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,280
depending on the reference
price.

696
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,880
And lastly, nickel Matt's
windfall profit has been removed

697
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,960
under the new proposal with a
fixed 2 to 3% royalty rate to be

698
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,040
revised to 4.5 to 6.5% depending
on your reference rate.

699
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,480
To be clear, like these, these
are, these are proposals at, at

700
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,400
this stage for public
consultation as as as nickel

701
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,120
industry says.
But the concerning thing for

702
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,280
investors is this is a proposal
that has come from the new

703
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,000
government of the country.
It's not, it's not like an

704
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,000
opposition party that is
proposing something that has no

705
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,520
chance of kind of getting over
the line in a legislative sense.

706
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,840
And, and also like this, the
president of Indonesia, this is

707
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,360
the president of a country who
was quoted last year describing

708
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,880
democracy as tiring, costly and
messy and said there was room

709
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,280
for improvement.
So make your own mind up on the

710
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,800
probability this proposal turns
into legislation or not.

711
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,280
What is clear is equity markets
are nervous in particular

712
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,840
investors in nickel industries.
I I just pulled up the relative

713
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,360
share price movements of all the
companies that produce a a

714
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,360
nickel product from from
Indonesia that I could find and

715
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,800
check the relative sell off in
in nickel industries versus the

716
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,120
other list of names I could I
could find it, it leads to pack.

717
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:08,400
Substantially the one at the
bottom.

718
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,080
Yeah, it is.
It's pretty, pretty stark,

719
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,240
right?
I think there's potentially a

720
00:38:14,240 --> 00:38:18,040
few reasons for that.
Yeah, substantial

721
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,120
underperformance, first, first
peers.

722
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,680
They could also be oversold like
you know, you've got to do your

723
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,720
own homework here.
But if you look at the proposed

724
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:28,760
royalty changes, they punitively
punish sales of nickel ores.

725
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:33,200
And if you, if you check nickel
industries EBITDA for, you know,

726
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,680
full year 2024, USA 100 million
comes from sales of nickel ore

727
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,840
mining.
The other US 200 million comes

728
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,840
from their share of NPI and MHP
produced from the downstream

729
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,560
processing.
So there's, there's a fair whack

730
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:49,240
there on all fronts.
And what probably hits them

731
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,120
again is you got to look at the
balance sheet too.

732
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,920
So I got net debt of US
832,000,000 bucks.

733
00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:58,760
And if you, if you thought of
the status quo royalty regime,

734
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,120
they're like with that sort of
net debt, no issues.

735
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,360
These are fantastic assets that
are really low on the cost curve

736
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,240
like that, that amount of debts,
no worries.

737
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:08,800
But the pros hike suddenly eats
into a giant proportion of your,

738
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,320
your EBITDA and all of a sudden,
you know that that gearing kind

739
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,320
of doesn't look as appropriate
as it used to look under the

740
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,080
status quo.
So I just thought I'd pose a

741
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,600
question to you guys like
hearing this news, observing

742
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,200
this and the, the, the, the kind
of out of nowhere implication

743
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,160
that hasn't stopped for us.
What do you what do you think of

744
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,920
this?
Got a couple thoughts.

745
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,680
Firstly, mining companies with
single kind of assets with debt

746
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,760
are always risky and can often
come from left field.

747
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,280
What hits you?
You know, this isn't a single

748
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,160
asset company.
They've got a lot of different

749
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,120
minds, but they're concentrated
country risk.

750
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,440
So that's what I was referring
to, a single jurisdiction

751
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,280
rather.
And my other thought was trying

752
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,520
to tie it back to stuff I'd read
about Indonesian nickel last

753
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,480
year.
They obviously wanted to

754
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,920
dominate supply of nickel that
was a, you know, pretty much

755
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,640
written in legislation there.
But even these prices were

756
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,120
levels they weren't happy with.
They wanted prices to be higher

757
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,560
so the government makes more.
Revenue via via royalties and

758
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,320
taxes and all these kind of
things.

759
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,920
So just trying to think kind of
creatively, are they trying to

760
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,160
disincentivize potentially more?
I know that's thinking like one

761
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,360
or two steps kind of ahead, but
this would certainly be a big

762
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,480
disincentive.
Like you guys remember the the

763
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,560
reaction to the coal royalties
in Queensland and just how

764
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,760
disgusted BHB, Glencore and
every other miner in the state

765
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:34,440
was.
You know, companies don't like

766
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,240
this for a reason.
You know, you want stability to

767
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,840
guide your mind, plans to rate
the rewards for the CapEx you've

768
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,720
sunk into the ground a long time
ago and the the reaction would

769
00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:48,640
be pretty, pretty heated.
Even even if they are Chinese

770
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,280
companies or whatever, you know,
they're not going to, they're

771
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:51,920
not going to like this one bit.
What?

772
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:53,680
Do you recommend?
It's like, it's like Indonesia,

773
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,880
Nichols just, and the
government, they're all just

774
00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:00,360
fighting between themselves
because they've gained control.

775
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,120
Like they're just, yeah, it's a
lot.

776
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,520
They've caused the price.
Well, they obviously have caused

777
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,280
the price themselves to be low
because they wanted the market

778
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,480
control.
And it's just, yeah, it's, it's

779
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,280
a weird concept to think of.
I don't know, it's all happening

780
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,360
in one country.
I don't know if there's like a

781
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,920
unified voice or opinion of
Indonesia.

782
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,960
I mean, we're talking about
changing government over this

783
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,120
period of time.
And I, I, I, this is not just

784
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,720
going to apply to nickel, it's
going to apply to coal in a, in

785
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:31,000
a different capacity to all of
the other minerals they produce

786
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,160
in unspecified kind of, yeah,
quantified royalty changes so

787
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,640
far and the other commodities.
It's not just nickel, but I hate

788
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:43,000
seeing this.
Like if you just take, so one of

789
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,360
one of Nickel Industries
operations is, is the Oracle

790
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,480
nickel project, which nickel
industries they have an 80%

791
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,640
interest in.
And all of the flood of

792
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:57,400
investment that you saw go into
Indonesia, a huge amount of that

793
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,440
was concentrated in what is
called Morawali Industrial Park.

794
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:03,440
And the reason Morawali
Industrial Park attracted

795
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:09,120
phenomenal sums of, of foreign
capital is because like I, I,

796
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,440
the, the Indonesian government
wanted to focus on the value add

797
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,960
in the downstream, but they also
provided the necessary tax

798
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,760
breaks to warrant the huge
upfront capital investment that

799
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,000
was required to develop and
build out that industry.

800
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,840
You don't just get industry,
decide to put a, put a smelter

801
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,360
there because you're, you're all
of a sudden, you know, banning

802
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,040
the export you've got, you've
got to create the conditions

803
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,880
that allow for it.
So with Oracle nickel project,

804
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,000
for example, concessions, these
these concessions include a 100%

805
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,600
corporate income tax reduction
for 10 years from the

806
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,120
commencement of commercial
production, followed by a 50%

807
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:43,520
reduction for the next two
years.

808
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,720
And I also got a 10 year
exemption from withholding and

809
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:50,280
tax collection by third parties
on sale proceeds.

810
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,640
So those that's the environment
that you know, let's you kind of

811
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,840
go to your board and and warrant
the the huge amount to make a

812
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,080
very long term kind of capital
investment because you're

813
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,840
thinking, you're thinking about
an asset 30 year mine life

814
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:04,960
discount that back.
It all works out if we get these

815
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,120
tax breaks and all of a sudden
the royalty gets lifted.

816
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,760
So who gives a who gives a shit
about your corporate tax break

817
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,840
because you've got no tax
because you don't have any net

818
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:14,880
profit anymore.
Like.

819
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,360
Is that is that a hell of a?
Have they provided similar

820
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,920
concessions to other?
There were similar ones, the

821
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,240
companies, there were
inconsistencies by project, but

822
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:27,280
there were that they were same
ballpark.

823
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was one of a few.

824
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:31,920
Five different government.
Industrial.

825
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,200
The same government.
Same government?

826
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,360
Yeah, well, oh, sorry, you mean
that?

827
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,360
When when they provided the tax
breaks compared to now

828
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:40,920
potentially lifting the
royalties.

829
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,000
I'm not sure on the differences
in what the the previous

830
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,520
administration, administration
kind of stand for, but.

831
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:48,480
It is a different government,
though.

832
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,400
It's a different different.
Government.

833
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:51,480
The joys of different
governments.

834
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,680
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, this, this is.

835
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,760
And when you hear about the way
that the majors are talking

836
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,680
about investing in, in Argentina
at the moment, it's because that

837
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,280
that framework, the Riggy
framework, actually provides

838
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,040
absolute certainty over a / a
long period that is required to

839
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,160
amortize the huge amount of
investment that you're embarking

840
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,120
on.
If you imagine just like putting

841
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,280
hundreds of millions or billions
of dollars into a project in

842
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,360
Indonesia and you get these tax
breaks, happy days, and then all

843
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,720
of a sudden the royalty's up so
you don't have any profit

844
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:25,520
anymore, like massive rug pool.
But if you have certainty in a

845
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,600
regulatory framework for a
period of time that you know

846
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,960
your downside is protected too,
that actually lets you make the

847
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:32,480
infrastructure like investment
that's required.

848
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,480
There is no, in my view,
absolute certainty in, in

849
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,920
mining, you're building a
project in someone else's

850
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,080
country.
You can get as comfortable as

851
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:42,240
you want.
And I think Riggy has done a

852
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:44,400
great job to, to get people to
that level.

853
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:47,160
But you're building something in
Argentina.

854
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,400
And when Malays out out of
government, things could change.

855
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:56,400
You know, I hope they don't and
they probably won't, but

856
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,320
there's, there's always that,
that risk.

857
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:02,040
We seen changes across the world
in almost in almost every

858
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,280
country.
You know, it's that is part of

859
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,040
the risk of investing in mining,
unfortunately.

860
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:12,360
Do you think nickel sulfide
developers and X producers would

861
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,320
look at this as a positive?
Yeah, For them, yeah.

862
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,720
They'd be thinking this is the
sort of potential Indonesian

863
00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:21,760
catalyst that could change the
landscape.

864
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,640
These are the the cracks that
start to emerge.

865
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:30,240
Commodities are cyclical, you
know, and for, for the varying

866
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:32,840
factors in like this case, the
government wanting a bigger

867
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,160
piece of the pie.
That's nothing new.

868
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,480
Nothing new under the sun there,
right?

869
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,000
Yeah.
And it's a, it's a incrementally

870
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,080
huge piece of the pie that
they're wanting.

871
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:42,120
I mean.
It is the pie.

872
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:42,360
Yeah.
It's.

873
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,200
Fascinating.
Really, really interesting.

874
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:48,560
That's a good, that was a good
one.

875
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:50,520
We'll see.
We'll see where it goes and

876
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,760
whether that does in in due
course, become legislation.

877
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,920
Yeah, well, well, very good
lads.

878
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,520
Get your tickets to Aussie Man.
Yeah.

879
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:06,240
And it's 100 bucks.
That's not gonna go up by 15%

880
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,560
unexpectedly.
It's just 100 bucks off some

881
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,960
other contractors that will buy
Chuck a random royalty on you

882
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:18,880
MMS grounded see if it ground
sports CR insurance kadrill a

883
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,400
transparent invoice.
No chance of a bloody royalty WA

884
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,160
water balls sweet quattro
project engineer across boundary

885
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,360
energy Urdu money.
More information contained in

886
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,160
this episode of Money of Mine is
of general nature only and does

887
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,960
not take into account the
objectives, financial situation

888
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,000
or needs of any particular
person.

889
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,360
Before making any investment
decision, you should consult

890
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,440
with your financial advisor and
consider how appropriate the

891
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,120
advice is to your objectives,
financial situation and needs.