We ask Hedley Widdup about every gold mining junior

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Great one was sitting there with
have you on.

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They were the obvious buyer of
the rest of have you on from

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from Newmont.
And if anyone bought that, why

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the hell wouldn't you want
Telfa?

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00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,600
You know, they, they haven't
managed to push that decline in

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as fast as people thought.
How many tons do you get out of

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an anagram?
It's not going to fill Telfa.

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So you know, something extra is
required in that region.

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You know, that's not just my
view.

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There's obviously enough people
in the market who keep buying

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Antifa.
Right on Buddy Waters we had a

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bloody impromptu surprise visit
from a great friend of the show,

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Henley Widdip.
Line selection, Kurt, good short

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notice recruit and Travis.
What a lucky coincidence that he

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happened to be available in in
town the exact same day I

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messaged him.
We had such a wicked

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conversation about every school
gold junior you can think of.

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Maddie.
We asked I.

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Was surprised how many gold
juniors you across.

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Have you got a new?
Found passion.

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I cut my teeth in that sector.
Maddie, I once you, once you're

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across, once you do the gold
comps in corporate finance, you

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never forget the companies.
They're all had Reg paid

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histories, but yeah pretty much
went through frigging everything

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other than a mid cap in guards.
We can talk about them.

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Yeah, and if they're potentially
producing or bloody, Yeah, he's

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no, It was a frigging good yard.
It's awesome.

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Keen to hear it guys, Maybe
they'll last sort of get their

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big day in the sun as we're
starting to see.

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Jade, have you heard if Vice
aren't have thrown that offer to

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Gerard James yet?
WA Waterboards.

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Cannot confirm or deny Maddie
but I've I've got a sort of

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price that I think gets the deal
over the line in my mind.

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What are you thinking?
Mate, if you've got a contact

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there, Matey reckons 30 mil
would do it.

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But based on the fact that the
best bloody mud Rotary drillers

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in the world are at WA water
balls, they'll probably make

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that in a year and a half.
So that multiple doesn't even

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make sense for me.
So vice, Ange.

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Checks.
Checks the box for.

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Open up the checkbook.
I reckon you might be mate.

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They they find water with gold
in it in this bloody

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environment.
So we're talking bloody bore

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field installations.
You want to find water?

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You want to fuck water off?
You want to bloody do anything

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water related mate.
You can even drill paste tiles

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in the underground with the WA
water balls team and the bloody

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vertical angle.
Anything anything.

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They are the absolute gurus and.
God will come out of them.

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Pretty pretty much you can flush
it's gold straight up the bloody

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paste tile into your into the
back of your truck if you want

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go Gerard James, go vice on by
and Gerard James open your.

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Check.
Let's let's do WA water balls to

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be clear.
Yeah, yeah, but no.

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Well, bloody maybe.
One and the same.

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Yeah, 2 transactions, righto.
Let's get into it with headers.

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Righto buddy.
Miners Headley by Kay while the

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sun shines, mate, this is your
time to do as many podcast

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interviews as you can.
Oh, tell you what Headley, we're

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at Law and Selection Group.
How are you mate?

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I'm well, thanks, Maddie.
And I must say it's a great

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privilege to be sitting at this
round table, which has become

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quite famous.
I've been, I've been blessed to

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be on your podcast before, but
never in this office.

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So this feels like.
Table mate.

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Feels like a first time for me.
It's, it's, it's pretty

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impromptu and serendipitous.
I sent you a text message this

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morning and I said, mate, when
you're in Perth next, I was

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thinking like this is this is
Gold junior time and you are Mr.

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Gold Junior and, and, and you
replied and said, I just landed,

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I'm I'm here, do you want to get
a beer?

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And I said, well, why don't we
have a beer miked up and you've

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popped in.
Well, you said, you said when

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you're coming to Perth, I
thought, shit sounds like an

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invitation, I'll book a flight.
No such thing as a free lunch,

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mate.
I didn't want to have a beer.

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We're getting an episode.
Out I even managed to organise a

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site visit for tomorrow, so, you
know, legitimise the whole

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thing.
Awesome, I heard you're visiting

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a deposit with my my name.
That's right, the mighty Ricky.

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Ricky.
The Murchison region.

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I don't want to.
Well, it sounds like.

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I mean, you know, they say don't
kiss and tell.

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I haven't even kissed this one
yet.

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So what's it like?
So what's it like that you've

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since we first interviewed you
last year, you're one of the, I

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guess, more publicized early
movers seeing the value in

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junior gold stocks And they're
they've all had a bit of a run

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and a lot of yours, most of
yours have had a pretty good

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run, some yet to probably run as
much as you like.

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What's the vibe like?
How do you feel about picking it

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and it's finally sort of
happening?

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I think I've been working in
mining finance now for 18 years

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and then there was 10 years of
mining before that.

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And I think one of the things
which you recognise after that

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long in the industry is how
cyclical it is.

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And you know, there's good
times, but you got to recognise

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when there is a good time
because you need to, like you

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said, make hay when the sun
shines.

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They don't last forever.
At the moment we've seen the

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gold price rocket away and we
started buying into the junior

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golds just thinking that they
were the most depressed, as in

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they've been sold off the
hardest, particularly when

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critical minerals were all the
rage was like who gives the

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stuff about gold?
So we're investing in it at that

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time, feeling contrarian, but
also feeling that the risk

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profile across the entire junior
space was very much skewed.

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And if you're paying a lot for
critical minerals at that time,

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you're also taking marketing,
metallurgical, etcetera, risk.

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And in gold, that is a risk
which is generally much, much

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lower, if at all, you know, you
can dig gold up, separate it and

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sell it a lot easier than
anything else.

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So if you're getting it cheap,
it's a great time to be in it

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and then you wait and, and
hopefully it goes up.

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So that thesis played out and it
feels great.

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But you know, now we start to
think where does this lead?

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And I guess nobody knows the
answer to that, but I do feel

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like quit quite early.
Well, and it seems like a very

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basic overview of it.
It feels like they were so many

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companies were stuck in the
whole of very small market caps

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beating up like anything
inability to raise cap that much

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capital that can actually get a
much.

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Now there's actually a bit of
equity and momentum in the mall.

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They're right.
Like just the, the tailwinds you

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get from being able to raise,
you know, 2 figure amounts of

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money and now just set up.
It just seems it's either one

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end or the other and it just
really feels like that's pushing

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them all at the moment.
Yeah, well, I mean last year if,

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if, if you took the first half
of last year and then even

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trickling through into
September, October, a big raise

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was 10 million bucks if you're a
gold company and even if you're

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really advanced.
Replacement capacity.

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Yeah, yeah.
Well now I mean you've got

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companies raising 30 million
bucks every second day and and

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not much has changed other than
the gold price.

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But yet, I think the, the, if
you look at it from a a value

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perspective, you're still a
long, long way behind what you

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would be buying in terms of
dollars per oz or whatever

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metric trick you want to use
that kind of values what a

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company might be able to produce
versus the producers.

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The producers have benefited
from the gold price, maybe not

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as much as you would have
expected in a 1980s style cycle

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or a 90s or even naughties style
cycle where gold starts going

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quite hard and and a lot of
speculation starts to get built

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into the equities.
I think we live in a world now

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where gold is being bought by
such a large market, which

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doesn't necessarily include a
lot of Western speculators,

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whereas it's the Western
speculators in the Western

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markets which need to purchase
the equities.

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So whatever is driving the gold
price isn't also applied to the

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equity price.
And in the past, that leverage

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would have been much more
significant than what we see

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now.
And I think that has probably

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had something to do with the
lack of feed through into the

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development space and the junior
space, although there's a lot of

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relevant recent history which
probably has put people off of

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taking those risks as well are.
You are you still saying a

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pretty substantial like
disconnect between the the

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equity valuations of the, you
know, the undeveloped juniors

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versus the producers and and
kind of how are we quantifying

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that?
Yeah.

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How do you how do you measure a
whole sector?

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Not so much in valuation that
that that's a harder piece,

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Although I would say
subjectively, non empirically,

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yes, I I see that that as a big,
big difference.

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If I just took aggregate prices
and the way that they trade and

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you say, well, you know, if
someone's got some good answers

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to come out of the ground, then
that group of companies with

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good answers should be trading
in a similar pattern to the

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people who are producing good
answers.

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And there must be good answers
because you're producing them

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and you're making money.
Some are better than others, but

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you know, there's good that make
money and there's bad that

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don't.
I suppose if you just draw that

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very black and white
distinction.

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For the last three years, the
gold producers have taken

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advantage of a robust semi
solid, now almost vertical gold

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price and they've been able to
expand their revenues.

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They've been very fortunate to
be doing that against a backdrop

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of prices not inflating all that
heavily.

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Price inflation in the mining
market has been driven by iron

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ore in the naughties and coal at
the same time.

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We've had the critical minerals
boom and all these new lithium

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mines that had to compete with
the labor pool that wasn't

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expanding, but the amount of
mines wasn't contracting.

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So that that pushed costs
amazingly and that's not a

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factor at the moment.
A lot of those jobs are falling

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away.
So the gold industry I think is

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00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,799
able to make more money at the
same time as costs not chasing

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it up.
And we haven't seen the kind of,

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you know, let's all push our pit
optimizations out and start

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mining marginal material to make
more answers that make less

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00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,400
money.
I'm sure that'll come, but we

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haven't seen it yet.
So the producers have runaway,

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00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:57,640
they've had that price trend for
three years.

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In that same three years, the
developers have been on a

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00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,520
downward trajectory, I would say
until very early this year or

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00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:09,040
late last year when the the
junior slash Explorer class, if

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00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,600
you just take it as a whole and
I'm sure you could pick out the

200
00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,880
ones which are the better
performance versus the worst

201
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,800
performance.
But if you just take a median

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00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,560
across a very large group of
maybe a hundred, 120 of them

203
00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:22,760
that sit below a 200, two, 150
mil market cap, that ticked up

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00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,960
as of last year and that broke a
very significant three-year

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00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,320
trend.
So it wasn't the gold price

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00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,200
which pulled it out of that.
I think it was money coming down

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00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,280
from the producers and saying
where can we take a bit more

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00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,360
risk to expose ourselves to a
bit more performance.

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00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,480
So I feel like that corresponds
with the raisings that got

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00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,080
bigger.
You know, the two seem to go

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00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,480
hand in hand.
So if I had to say, you know, it

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00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,040
is now the time for gold
juniors.

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00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,120
Yeah, I think we're into we're
into that era now.

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00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,400
I.
Think Connor bit bit devil's

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00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,720
advocate against what you said
about the the labour pool and

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00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,640
everything dropping off.
Like I agree with the the

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00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:01,760
lithium and the nickel providing
putting a lot more people into

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00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:03,640
the market.
But I guess what's happened in

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00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,200
in parallel with, you know, with
gold, like you got more

220
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,040
obviously a lot more of a
underground mining pool that you

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00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,520
have to pick from and you know,
word on the street the amount of

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00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,520
people that Northern Star are
consuming for this Kalgoorlie

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00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,040
expansion is really chucking a
lot of pressure on the

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00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,040
employment pool at the moment.
There was a lot available, but

225
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,880
it's like that expansion is
really taking a lot of people

226
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,000
out of the market.
So and, and when we get to the

227
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,560
point where like these prices
are up here, they're not and and

228
00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:40,400
lithium's dead, like how how
we're not producing as cheap.

229
00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,240
Yeah, like those big operations
are actually sucking a lot of

230
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:44,560
people.
Well, that's true.

231
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,000
And I suppose that there will be
other gold projects which are

232
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,320
also expanding or you know,
bringing more people on.

233
00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,360
I'd just contrast that if you,
if you were to take now and the

234
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,600
expansion of the Super pit, and
perhaps that's another hundred,

235
00:10:56,680 --> 00:10:59,640
150 people, I don't know, rough
numbers, you might know better

236
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,080
than me.
But I can think back to when I

237
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,560
was finishing up being a
geologist and moving into mining

238
00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:06,440
investment.
That was when iron ore was going

239
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,320
from 40 bucks to 100 bucks.
And that was a case of you used

240
00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,920
to get paid 60 grand a year as a
truck driver and suddenly it was

241
00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,120
120 and then it was 150.
And it was just they needed bums

242
00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,680
on seats and it was expansions
that were bringing in thousands

243
00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:23,960
of people, not not hundreds.
So I think that you know that

244
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,640
and that was in a market which
needed to expand in order to do

245
00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,160
that.
My sense would be that if

246
00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,080
Northern Star or anyone else in
the gold space says we need a

247
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,120
couple of underground operators,
we need a hundred of them.

248
00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,920
You put an ad in the paper and
you're more than likely to have,

249
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,000
you know, a large proportion of
that pool that apply.

250
00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,000
Have some experience that they
can bring to it in which case

251
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,640
they can be picky.
So it's probably not having to

252
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,440
expand the labour pool too much.
Whereas you know the the case of

253
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,600
the truck drivers in the Pilbara
and the the naughties to the

254
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,480
late naughties, I would say
there was very few of them went

255
00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,760
with any experience.
Got to ask had the if, if, if

256
00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,760
the gold juniors have kind of
picked up already and some of

257
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,640
them are fairway off their lows.
You know, some some of them are

258
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,480
are yet to really tick up yet.
But certainly it feels like that

259
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,320
tide's turned.
Why, why are you not fully

260
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,520
deployed?
I mean at 303131 Jan, you had

261
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,560
what was it $61.3 million in, in
investments, but cash and term,

262
00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:21,880
term deposits of $47 million.
Don't you wish you had that

263
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,520
deployed before or they just
weren't like ways to actually

264
00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:26,280
deploy in that size in the
junior market?

265
00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:27,880
Part of me does, but we're not
traders.

266
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,120
So the part of me that wishes we
were deployed would also be the

267
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,800
part of me that was now sitting
there going well, if I want to

268
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,160
top up in anything like a satin
minerals, which we did

269
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,480
yesterday, sorry, yesterday was
Sunday.

270
00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,280
So we announced that today if we
wanted to top up in anything,

271
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,800
we'd be needing to sell
something and you'd be, you'd be

272
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:45,960
crystallising a return.
But when you go to sell anything

273
00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,600
to follow your money, you're,
you're stressed and you might

274
00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:50,080
not be making the best
decisions.

275
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,480
So I know that's probably a weak
defence for not being fully

276
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,680
deployed.
I must say it's difficult to

277
00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:56,640
time when you think a market is
really going to run.

278
00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,680
But what we've been focused on,
I mean, we, we exited the market

279
00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:05,360
to a large extent in 20/21/22.
We went to 90% cash.

280
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,560
We felt like we were at the top
of the market.

281
00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:11,000
There was opportunities to sell
some big investments and I don't

282
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,680
know, opportunity meets
preparation I guess.

283
00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:15,800
But at the same time, you're
probably only half clever.

284
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,080
You're also very lucky and but
you know, found ourselves in a

285
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:21,320
situation which I don't think
too many other asset managers

286
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,760
were to be fully cashed at the
top of market.

287
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,280
And then as that market and our
market is the juniors fell away,

288
00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:28,840
the purchasing power of that
increases.

289
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,360
So the temptation to be coming
into the market was always

290
00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,520
there, but it was also met by,
are you going to be investing

291
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,000
too, too far before that market
turns around.

292
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:43,480
And because we feel that the the
investment return which we're

293
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,680
hoping to get off of this pool
of assets is going to be over

294
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,160
let's say three to five years
in.

295
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:49,960
In practice, it could be longer,
it could be a bit shorter.

296
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,920
But I suspect 3 to 5 is probably
fairly near to what the ultimate

297
00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,360
boom phase might be.
And to crystallise value, some

298
00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,520
of them are going to have to
make discoveries, extend their

299
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:05,080
deposits, develop mines.
We can't be looking to sell once

300
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,120
we've had the return that we
have.

301
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,480
So I think in that same
quarterly it would have said

302
00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,400
we'd invested about 31,000,000
bucks.

303
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,160
And that pool of money which has
been invested just in Australia

304
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,400
was up about 52% at that marker.
It's up by more now, but you

305
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,520
know the, the, the market is
fortunately moving.

306
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,080
We can follow that money and
every single one of those

307
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:24,520
companies.
They're gonna need more.

308
00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:26,360
Is is at risk of needing more
capital?

309
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:27,960
There's one.
There's one I don't think they

310
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,200
will, but the rest of them do.
So let's say across the

311
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,160
portfolio, we need to be
prepared to follow our money.

312
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,800
And when you're following your
money, you're probably waiting

313
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,760
for another low price move
marker because no one, you know,

314
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,240
very few companies in that space
get it right where they go

315
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,320
right, we've gone from 10 to 50.
Let's raise all the money we

316
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,320
need now.
You know, they, they kind of get

317
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,520
to a point where they come issue
and if they'd hit 50, they'd

318
00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,880
come right back to 35 before
they raise money again.

319
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,200
So you're, you're probably
always getting a bargain when

320
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,520
you're putting fresh money in.
So we're very conscious of

321
00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,080
following our money to that
extent because our position as a

322
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,680
visible shareholder is sometimes
something which can influence

323
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,600
the success of a raising as
well, particularly in a market

324
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,400
which is not yet roaring it.
I think it's going well, but

325
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,480
we're also cognizant that if
we're, you know, a 10%

326
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,640
shareholder in something
someone's raising money and we

327
00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,840
go, we're not interested.
You know, that book might not be

328
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,240
as full, it might put pressure
on the price.

329
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,080
And it's, it's often something
that we're either there and

330
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,600
we're investing or we're finding
a way not to be there.

331
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:26,960
And there's not too much in
between that the market will be

332
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,520
happy with if there's a raising
on it's.

333
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:33,360
Probably a weird question, but
with the market I, I, I guess

334
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,680
yeah, rewriting to some extent.
Is your investable opportunity

335
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,720
set bigger or smaller than it
was 12 months ago?

336
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,560
Well, the investable opportunity
set has probably got most of the

337
00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,320
critical minerals in it now,
whereas 2 years ago I would

338
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,480
argue they weren't.
And it's, you know, there's no

339
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,240
objective marker.
It's what I think because if I

340
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,040
decide I'm not interested, then
I won't do the work, right.

341
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,800
So, so I think, you know,
there's some of those which I

342
00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,120
could be quite skeptical about,
but if someone came in with a,

343
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,880
what is obviously a large and
attractive, you know, sector

344
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,840
leading lithium deposit or rare
earths, I'm, I'm happy to have a

345
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,680
look at that.
I'm happy to think contrarian.

346
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,080
It might not be something that
we put a large amount of our

347
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,480
money into, but it's something
that we're very happy to think

348
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:15,960
about and see how that's going
to play.

349
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,200
Because if the lithium price
starts to move, the most

350
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,640
leveraged thing that you can be
in is the biggest, best grade

351
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,000
undeveloped deposit that's in
that space.

352
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,360
And that's that's where we often
try to put our money.

353
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,680
So I mean, we'd put money into
rare earth and that was the

354
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,520
mentality we had.
Look for that.

355
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:33,120
If it doesn't exist, don't do
it.

356
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,360
But so that's, I would say that
that opportunity set has

357
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,040
broadened.
Now it's easy to say when the

358
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,960
gold price is almost doubled in
that period of time that the

359
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:45,480
critical minerals couldn't
possibly do that.

360
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,000
We've seen them all come off
quite horrendously in many cases

361
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,840
and probably been the worst
performers across much of the

362
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,880
commodity market.
So how can you be so contrarian

363
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,320
about that when, you know, gold
was maybe a bit obvious?

364
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,480
We're biased by the performance
that we've seen.

365
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,360
It's difficult to make that
comparison, so I'm open minded

366
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:03,320
to looking at them.
But the other thing to think

367
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,720
about with gold is that, like I
said before, they tend to be

368
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,720
lower risk.
So if you've got 10 bucks to

369
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,040
spend in the mining market and
you want to do 10 stories,

370
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,640
there's a pretty good chance to
have all the things you assess.

371
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:18,040
Four or five of them are going
to be gold that race to the top

372
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:19,560
just because of pure weight of
numbers.

373
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,240
And if you're risk influenced,
if you want to hold something to

374
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,240
three, three to five years and
see it grow, see the project be

375
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,920
successful and the value which
you've, you know, come up with

376
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,000
in an empirical way is realised
by the market because it's time.

377
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,680
You need to have that time for
that to play out, which means

378
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,400
you can't, you can't take an
institutional approach to

379
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,480
something that starts off being
capitalised at 10 or 15 because

380
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,280
you might be right, but then
you're trapped in a lobster

381
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:43,680
trap.
And, you know, if it's just new

382
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,080
liquid stock, you might never
get price discovery.

383
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,160
So we've, we've, there's a lot
we've got to manage in that

384
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,680
sense.
And we, you know, we often get

385
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:53,960
shareholders will often come in
and say, oh, did you see this

386
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:55,240
trade?
You know, I made a lot of money

387
00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,080
off of it.
And it's buying an esoteric

388
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,600
option in a company which was,
you know, a death's door and

389
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,600
something happened and squeezed
and the options went great.

390
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,520
It's like, well, you know,
there's about 50 or $0.60 of

391
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,440
liquidity in that I wanted to
put half 1,000,000 bucks in

392
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,680
would have swamped it.
It's it's impossible, couldn't

393
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,440
get in, couldn't get out.
So there's a lot that happens in

394
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,280
the junior space where, you
know, for an institution to

395
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,280
invest, you have to be very
careful about what you pick just

396
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,200
because that money can influence
prices in the wrong way as well.

397
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,800
Right, you want to extract 100%
of these bloody resources that

398
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,360
headers is talking about?
You need a pace plant.

399
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,880
You need, you need an EPC
contract in a designer pace

400
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,880
plant.
Quite your bloody pace plant,

401
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,360
you know.
Oh, they quattro, they, as you

402
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:38,560
said, design engineer construct
and that pace has to go

403
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,800
somewhere, goes into the pace
fill Retik pipes underground,

404
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,600
they put those in that goes
through a quattro pace diverter

405
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,640
valve to optimise the flow of
this pace so you don't have to

406
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,160
bloody turn the plan off.
I think in the future that the

407
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:58,200
generic word Pace Phil will be
termed Quattro Phil because they

408
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,520
have just freaking taken over
the world of Pace Phil and it's

409
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,040
going to be like Band-Aid or Red
Bull.

410
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,000
There is no underground
engineering that these guys have

411
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,440
not, you know, wrapped their
their fingers and hands around.

412
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,160
This is this is their bread and
butter.

413
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,080
They are, you know, just Jeremy.
What, what, what?

414
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,360
An entrepreneur starting a
company, having a crack,

415
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,400
building something special with
Quattro Get around.

416
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,040
Them mate, they've been it's
decades long now, so absolute

417
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:27,240
APC gurus keep an eye on them
for at underground operators

418
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,840
conference and get them to tell
you how good they are instead of

419
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,040
me.
Don't Quattro as well.

420
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,880
Let's get back into it.
What do you think about if

421
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,760
you're going to split up the
gold juniors at the moment, the

422
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,760
ones that have performed well,
performed not as well as those

423
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,040
who are well in terms of the
information they have out.

424
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:52,280
I'll pluck a few names, ones
that have really outperformed of

425
00:19:52,280 --> 00:20:00,400
light, like Medallion, like
Astral Maker.

426
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,280
They all have like a there's a
bit of there's a study, there's

427
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,720
some numbers that you can wrap
your head around of like

428
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,600
hopefully what will happen.
One that probably hasn't

429
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,040
performed as well and starting
to go is probably great.

430
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,120
Boulder doesn't have a study yet
that looks like they're trying

431
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,360
to get to 1,000,000 oz before
they actually wrap a plan out.

432
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,440
Another announce the other week
that you know, bring on some

433
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,520
people to progress studies and
everything is that is that

434
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,920
influencing the performance of
these juniors.

435
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,320
If you like, they've got some
got some numbers for the

436
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,440
investors to sign up that makes
sense or don't want a bar of.

437
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,880
It well, short answer is yes, I
think that's very important.

438
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,000
But I think you've also got to
take step back and I've seen

439
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,440
some very clever people in the
mining space.

440
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,320
I'm not going to give you their
names, but you'd probably guess

441
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,520
it pretty quickly.
They know their story back to

442
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,040
front.
If you put them in front of a

443
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,120
purely retail audience and you
say you've got 15 minutes spewed

444
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,280
out, they'll hit you with
grades, they'll hit you with

445
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,640
tons, they'll hit with
timeframes and costs and all

446
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,360
this other stuff.
And the retail people just go,

447
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,280
what the hell are you talking
about?

448
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:04,920
I don't understand.
Like it, there's no relativity

449
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,120
around a parcel of 10,000 oz.
There's no relativity around how

450
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:11,040
many millions of dollars it
costs you to produce that.

451
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,080
So studies are useful because it
gives you the basis to announce

452
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,640
something and then to put that
into a layperson's terms.

453
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,440
And I think that's probably
where the magic is, is having a

454
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,360
story where you can genuinely
say we have done the study.

455
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:26,400
So if you've got the time and
the intelligence, go and read it

456
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,080
and digest it.
Come back with questions if you

457
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:30,600
like.
But but I can say with

458
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,840
confidence that this is what
we're going to do.

459
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,320
And I think those companies
which have proceeded, sorry,

460
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,800
have have really flourished in
this market have been ones who

461
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,800
can say things like we have a
plan a la a study.

462
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,560
We are advancing and they've
made tangible progress towards

463
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,760
being in cash flow and in many
cases they've been able to

464
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,040
procure some kind of a surprise
or at least a step down in terms

465
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:54,000
of how much it was going to
cost.

466
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,440
So they're not standing before
the market and saying it's going

467
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,640
to cost us half a billion
dollars to build a project and

468
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,000
that is all we can do.
You know, we're, we're a small

469
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,880
company and one day we're going
to need that capital in the case

470
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,800
of Medallion, which is I like
talking about that because we

471
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,480
put 1,000,000 bucks in at $0.10
and last I looked it was 20

472
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,160
something 20. 5 1/2 tonight. 25
There you go, they.

473
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,240
IPO D at 25 yeah, come back they
I think it went down as low as

474
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,080
like 3.
Yeah, but we didn't get any in

475
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,840
the IPO and we didn't get any at
3, but we did get some at $0.10

476
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,440
not long ago.
So what they did was you know

477
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,760
they had a study and it showed
we're going to go into

478
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,400
production.
We've got a great inventory and

479
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,480
it I think it's a very well
drilled deposit.

480
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,760
You know, it's well understood
from a geological perspective.

481
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,440
It's not a new resource and that
there's an advantage in that,

482
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,520
but one of the disadvantages,
it's been sitting in the ground

483
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,560
for a long time and people say,
well, what what straw needs to

484
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,520
break this camel's back to pull
it out of the ground.

485
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,000
And I think in this case, the
straw that broke the camel's

486
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,400
back was stepping away from, we
have to spend, I can't remember

487
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,800
what the CapEx was going to be,
you know, was it over 150 to

488
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,560
build a brand new plant?
And by the time you're doing

489
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,800
that for one deposit, which has
copper with gold oxide,

490
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,320
transitional and fresh, you need
to be able to try to come up

491
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,840
with a CapEx solution which
meets as many of those

492
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,200
requirements.
And as you know, I mean, if it's

493
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,880
plain gold, you can use one
plant reasonably simple.

494
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,280
By the time it's copper, you
need to think flotation.

495
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,840
And by the time you add
weathering into that it, it can

496
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,920
be a nightmare.
The nickel collapse happened,

497
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:23,880
IGO found many of its operations
unsustainable.

498
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,280
So they've been able to get
access.

499
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,160
Well, they've got an option on
the Cosmic Boy plant, which is

500
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,720
150 odd KS by Rd. which is, you
know, it's not next door, but it

501
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,080
it still makes sense when you're
taking. 2 grand.

502
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:35,880
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.

503
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,560
I think it's a bit more than
that that comes out of the

504
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,880
ground.
But it, it enables them to go in

505
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,520
with a smaller development
footprint, smaller CapEx and get

506
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,760
into business.
And I think there is an element

507
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,000
of the market which in the last,
I would say call it two to four

508
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,120
years has been much more open
to, you don't have to develop

509
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:53,480
something which is going to be
100,000 oz per annum because

510
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,480
there's so many deposits which
were shoehorned into that.

511
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,280
And they should have been longer
life, smaller capacity or, or

512
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,120
whatever.
But you know, some of the

513
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:02,680
mistakes I've seen in the market
that that's probably part of the

514
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,960
reasoning in the medallion case,
You know, they've found a way,

515
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,240
it looks as if they found a way
into production, which cuts the

516
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:10,800
CapEx back that they need to
raise.

517
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,440
And you know, by the time they
get to it, well, how much do

518
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,320
they need to raise?
They need to exercise an option.

519
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,680
There's a, there's a net off for
the the environmental

520
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,320
rehabilitation cost.
And what they've told the market

521
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,920
is that, you know, it's AI think
it's a $50 million option.

522
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,600
So they're not going to have to
pay 50.

523
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,120
It'll be reduced by a, a
liability amount.

524
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,880
And then they need to pay the
CapEx to, to do the bits and

525
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,480
pieces to make that plant work
for gold.

526
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,200
So, you know, instead of the
original.

527
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,560
And I can't remember what it
was, but maybe it was 150

528
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,080
million bucks.
It's now, you know, sub 100.

529
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,520
So it's a it's a big reduction,
but the other advantage of doing

530
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:50,160
it that way, well, not everybody
can is instead of saying we need

531
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,440
to build all of this from
scratch, which means you've got

532
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,360
to raise all that money in one
go.

533
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,640
It's not like you can do a
raising one year and buy your

534
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,720
crusher in your camp and then
come back the next year.

535
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,440
You know, you need once you're
committed, you've got to do it

536
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,440
all.
In this case, it's like they

537
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,280
they raise the money to to pay
for the option, raise the money

538
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,760
to do do a bit of the cap ex
raise the money to put yourself

539
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,160
into production of this couple
of bite sized chunks there,

540
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,240
which make it eminently more
manageable.

541
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,440
And because you're scaling up
your market cap each time, you

542
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,680
know, you've got a much bigger
rump to to raise money off of.

543
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,280
So I think that's probably part
of the success and that that

544
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,040
applies to some extent to some
of the others.

545
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,400
Astral is probably the odd one
out there and that they don't

546
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,400
seem to have an easier way into
production other than than

547
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,440
building their project.
But they've very successfully

548
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,800
demonstrated to the market.
And you know, it's up to Mark de

549
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,520
Clair.
Some call him Chocolates de

550
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,040
Clair.
I quite enjoy introducing Mark

551
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,600
to conferences and he's not here
to stare at me or send me rude

552
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,960
text messages now.
But I'm sure I'll hear about

553
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,320
this when it goes to it.
Have you ever get a picture of,

554
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,000
if you Google Alex Perry, the
fat fashion icon with

555
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,080
sunglasses, you got to stipulate
sunglasses.

556
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,480
Just tell me what it looks like,
because when Mark De Clair calls

557
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,000
my phone, that's the picture
that comes up.

558
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,920
So Mark Mark has very
successfully compared their

559
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,360
project to something like a like
what what Capricorn did with

560
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:12,480
Kalawinda.
And basically it's it's not high

561
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,480
grade, but it's large tons, it's
stable costs, it's stable

562
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,000
throughput.
It's a very bite size meal.

563
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,160
You know, you're buying
everything is vanilla in terms

564
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,200
of putting it on the ground with
CapEx, you're not taking too

565
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,520
many technology risks or
anything like that.

566
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,680
And I think that that story has
been well told and persevered

567
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,720
with and you know, as one
institution comes bit of

568
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,960
success, another institution
come, you know, so that one been

569
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,400
built up a bit more piece at a
time there.

570
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,440
And I wouldn't say that there's
been a breakthrough other than

571
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,840
Mark convincingly telling that
story.

572
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,440
Not everybody can do that
because you know there's a,

573
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,760
there's a circumstance,
audience, timing, all the rest

574
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,440
of it that comes into that.
Today, and like all those two

575
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:53,160
companies specifically and
everyone else, they all grinded

576
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,920
it out in the absolute dog shit
time of exploration being hated.

577
00:26:58,120 --> 00:26:59,800
Yeah.
And it just make more sense if

578
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,880
that went to an expanded
Higginsville mill.

579
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,520
That project have just wrapped
up Maximus I think.

580
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,560
Yeah.
That went yeah, yeah.

581
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,160
Well, there's been Pulsory
acquisition.

582
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:10,960
I mean, there's been trucks go
further than that.

583
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,160
Not even that far to.
Take material to the Saint Ives

584
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,560
mill, which.
Yeah, well, that's a logical 1

585
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,480
for them, but.
If you ever flew over St.

586
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,640
Ives in a helicopter, I'm not
saying I'd do that very often,

587
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,960
but I did it once and there was
nothing on the romped.

588
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,640
I used to work there so I know
what the romped should look

589
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:25,240
like.
So they've.

590
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,040
They've been put in crushed heap
ledge through that, you know,

591
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,200
semi recently I believe.
Yeah, yeah.

592
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:35,000
I believe so, I think.
The thing on Medallion now, the

593
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:37,480
one thing you didn't mention is
the fact that they can market

594
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,520
the copper now.
Yep, because copper was the

595
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,240
taboo for that stock.
They're like, how are you going

596
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,920
to deal with the copper?
And that was the whole thing.

597
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,280
And now they can put drill
results out that say 5% copper

598
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,080
because they've got the
processing solution.

599
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,680
So they've got extra, you know,
firepower in the perception of

600
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,000
that stock.
Well, and 10 years or maybe not

601
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,840
ten years ago, but in the last
market where copper was, you

602
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,160
know, hitting choppy levels,
TCR, CS and what you'd have to

603
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,480
pay away in a copper concentrate
was a much, much higher value in

604
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,560
proportion of the value of the
of the ore.

605
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,880
So you know, if you were selling
5% copper or 5% ore going into a

606
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,640
concentrate and going off site,
you know, you would still see a

607
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,720
material cost that you pay in
that.

608
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,320
There's been so many smelters
built, you know, Glencore is

609
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,560
tracking some of the shittest
concentrates in the world up the

610
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,680
train line 2 man iser to keep
that smelter full.

611
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,680
So there's arsenic going to
places where I think probably

612
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,400
need not go, not saying it goes
up that train line, you know

613
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,280
couldn't substantiate that.
But there is a demand for copper

614
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,440
concentrates now and if they are
good quality they are in high

615
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,640
demand for blending.
So I would say that that's

616
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,680
something which is also inflated
that copper story for them in

617
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,600
that that can enable finance.
So what I said the other day was

618
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,960
that have a number of off take
interests and some of them are

619
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,920
offering debt terms alongside
the the off take contracts.

620
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,600
And if you can do that, then it
means you don't need to deal

621
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,600
with the bank.
And the more gold in it, the

622
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,320
more they'll take.
That's right, yeah.

623
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,880
Another portfolio company that
has really bounced and it was a

624
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,760
catalyst Antipa.
It's not like 300 ish ish

625
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:13,400
percent since Greatland acquired
the rest of of Haveron and

626
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,600
Telfa.
Talk us through you know how you

627
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,520
how you see Antipa in their
recent performance well.

628
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,240
We invested in Antipa.
I can't remember the exact date,

629
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,680
I'd say it was, it was
definitely before Diggers and

630
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,280
dealers because I remember
talking to them about it

631
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,080
afterwards.
So let's say that was mid 2024

632
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,640
and at that time we were looking
at something where I think

633
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,160
they're raising about 6,000,000
bucks.

634
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,240
They already had a reasonable
size inventory and where they

635
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,760
were was in the Patterson.
And you know, I, I cast my eye

636
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:47,840
across WA, rest of Australia,
the most heavily developed part

637
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,560
of Australia for common
infrastructure would which would

638
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,200
be useful to so many people
irrespective of where the

639
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,000
tenement boundaries are is
probably the yield gun.

640
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,520
And you know, the central area
of the Gulf fields around

641
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,240
Kalgoorlie, the Murchison,
etcetera.

642
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:01,920
The Paterson is not heavily
developed.

643
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,680
In fact it's quite remote, but
it's very close.

644
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,280
Well, Telfer is in the heart of
it.

645
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,160
And, and Telfer is a pin up
operation.

646
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,840
It's very large, has been a very
large gold project.

647
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,000
So we were looking at Antipa
thinking these guys have a big

648
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,560
inventory.
And if you take a 5 year view,

649
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,720
particularly if the market turns
around and turns into a boom,

650
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,080
this is something which should
become interesting either the

651
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,360
people that want to build
projects or for these guys to be

652
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,200
able to fund it.
And at the time we were looking

653
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,120
at it thinking, you know, it
could be a stressful financing

654
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,320
as their market cap at the time
we entered was about 60.

655
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,640
But you know, give the passenger
time and add a boom to it,

656
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,320
market caps can increase.
So we sort of took that risk on

657
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,520
our thesis was definitely A2
fold 1 though.

658
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,680
And one thing that we've tried
to be a lot more cognizant of

659
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,120
in, in this generation of
investing in the last, let's say

660
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,000
five years is you're not just
investing in the project and,

661
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,480
and that has to be successful
because that's always something

662
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,720
you look for.
But if you can have a second

663
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,160
exit point which is just you
know, is there a factor which is

664
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,080
close to that could procure a
development pathway or an exit

665
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,520
for you from the stock even that
that takes all the project risk,

666
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,720
development risk off the table
and M&A is one of those.

667
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,320
So we weren't buying Antipa
because we thought there's M&A

668
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,160
in this.
It was more there's a very

669
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,680
obvious process facility there.
It's 20 odd, 22 odd million tons

670
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,200
per annum.
It's like 12 mils.

671
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,080
Yeah.
Well, it's in one.

672
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,560
I mean you think of a big, a big
mill in the yield gun is 3 to 5

673
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,800
million tonnes, right?
And so here's one which is 4 to

674
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,640
five times larger than that
which you know, great

675
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,000
efficiencies in that all the
rest.

676
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,680
But Telfer has had a very long
life and found itself with a

677
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,920
very little actual law.
In fact, when Newmont sold it,

678
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,760
it had 0 reserves.
So that that picture is changing

679
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,680
now with Greatland having got
hold of it and investing in all

680
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,360
the rest of it.
But we took the view that

681
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,840
whatever happens with Telfer,
there's a good chance that the

682
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,080
anti parole there is of great
use.

683
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,600
And we clearly, you know, it's
hard to escape the obvious

684
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,200
story.
We we didn't know it at the

685
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,840
time, but Greatland was sitting
there with have you're on.

686
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,360
They were the obvious buyer of
the rest of have you're on from

687
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,640
from Newmont.
And if anyone bought that, why

688
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:08,760
the hell wouldn't you want
telephone?

689
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,640
So we thought, well, if you do
that, how hard is have you're

690
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,440
on?
We were speculating a bit, but

691
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,400
it looked like something which
the development maybe hadn't

692
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,880
stalled, but it come to the most
challenging part of the

693
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,680
development of it.
You know, they, they haven't

694
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,240
managed to push that decline in
as fast as people thought.

695
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,240
How many tons do you get out of
an anagram?

696
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,080
It's not going to fill Telfa.
So, you know, something extra is

697
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,760
required in that region other
than have your own.

698
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,880
They've done a great job of, of
expanding the resources at Telfa

699
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,120
since they've owned it.
And I think the thesis still

700
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:41,760
fits.
But, you know, that's not just

701
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,160
my view.
There's obviously enough people

702
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,480
in the market who keep buying
Antipa who either they share the

703
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,840
thesis that it's a developable
project or I would say given,

704
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,000
you know, the apparent
ferociousness of buying in the

705
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,400
stock, it's probably more like
they also share the M&A view.

706
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,320
So you know, I think that's
something which a lot of people

707
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,480
are talking about.
But it the thing with M&A is it

708
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,600
it's so difficult to deliver
into because it's all

709
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,400
speculation until it happened.
And you know, we I know you guys

710
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,680
talk about M&AA lot.
The thing I often smile about is

711
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,280
that we all sit outside of an M
and a deal and talk about what

712
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,040
the obvious factors must be.
When you're on the inside of it,

713
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,800
those obvious factors are
sometimes really difficult or,

714
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,600
you know, just no on impossible
and you try to deal with them.

715
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,640
But you know, I think so in, in
something like this, you look at

716
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,800
it and go, well, there's a mill
there, there's a deposit there.

717
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:27,760
There's a gap.
Just go on there.

718
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:28,840
Go there.
Go and do it.

719
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,000
Yeah.
But I mean, you know, greatly

720
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,320
needs to list in Australia
first.

721
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,520
Yeah, I think that's that's
something which they need to do

722
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:35,880
and.
And Tipper needs approvals to

723
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,080
fill that gap in the mine plan,
too.

724
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:37,720
Right.
That's right.

725
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,240
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But meanwhile, and Taper got one

726
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,520
of the exploration JV's back
from Newmont that already had a

727
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,920
ripping target on it and and off
they go.

728
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,680
They're going to be trying to
drill that fairly shortly.

729
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,400
They raised money and it was a,
it was confusing to me because

730
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,960
they, they were pretty cashed up
because they'd sold the

731
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,240
remainder of the JV with Rio
back to Rio and that had to

732
00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:59,480
cash.
And then they raised money and I

733
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:00,920
was like, well, didn't see that
coming.

734
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,120
Are you as a shareholder
comfortable with that raise

735
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,000
because it just gives them a bit
more?

736
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,240
Yeah.
We participated in that raise

737
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,480
and it was priced at, or they've
reconstructed the price price,

738
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,280
but that was priced at $0.20,
which seems a long way in the

739
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,480
rearview mirror from 40 odd or
the mid 40s where we are at the

740
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,639
moment.
The thesis at the time was

741
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,040
they'd been, you know, they've
been doing Rd. shows, they're

742
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,159
always doing Rd. shows.
And one of them I think was the

743
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:27,080
first foray overseas.
It might not have been the first

744
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,560
foray overseas, but it was they
presented to a lot of North

745
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,800
American institutions.
And this was in the lead up to

746
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,920
Christmas.
So there was this question

747
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,719
around where's gold going?
It was starting to feel quite

748
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,480
pleasant, like a lukewarm bath.
But you know, we all knew we

749
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,440
were going to the hiatus of
Christmas and anything can

750
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,480
happen over that period of time.
So that had this interest.

751
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,400
And I think I think what they
felt was that in the book, they

752
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,639
were going to get some interest
from North American institutions

753
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:53,040
which were ready to go, ready to
pay a good price.

754
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,040
And they would be able to come
out to the market and say, look,

755
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,520
we're funded right through we we
can actually do everything we

756
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,360
want to do.
And if you think about that in

757
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,920
the context of developing a
project, it's very defensible to

758
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,160
raise the money to say we don't
need to raise any.

759
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,400
But that's that's the second
most powerful thing you can say

760
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,240
other than we've just dropped
the CapEx is we don't need to

761
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:15,600
raise any more money for a long
time.

762
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,760
The only way to get those shares
is to go on market and buy it.

763
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,160
So I think it was a good thing
for them to do in that case that

764
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,280
regard.
If you think that there is any

765
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,200
MNA coming and I know no better
than anybody else does here, but

766
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,440
if that was to occur, you want
to give yourself the longest

767
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,200
possible time to, we've got to
work through that.

768
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,640
And so having an expanded Kitty
there also puts them in a very

769
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,480
strong position to be able to
say, look, we're, we're

770
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,480
drilling, we're doing our PFS.
You know, if someone's

771
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,360
interested here, then let's
talk.

772
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:46,160
But the, the worst time to enter
into an M and a discussion and

773
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,760
I've, I've been a part of this
is when you know, you need to

774
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,400
raise money in the next 6 months
because once that M&A discussion

775
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,920
starts, it's incredibly
difficult to raise money.

776
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,760
And once that Ave. is taken
away, it takes away a real

777
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,960
platform of strength.
You can be you can be starved

778
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,520
very rapidly.
While we're talking about M and

779
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:07,120
A2 of your portfolio companies
merged very recently in Bright

780
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,600
Star and and Alto, was this, was
this a, you know, a deal you

781
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,240
were pretty, pretty keen to see
happen as a, as a shareholder of

782
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:19,440
both and kind of encouraged.
Definitely blessed it.

783
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,800
Yeah, we were.
We were very happy to see that

784
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,840
as an outcome.
And the the pure, the biggest

785
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,800
reason for that is that the
operating assets which Bright

786
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,880
Star have, I mean Bright Star
had nothing in it at that point

787
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,280
which was extremely large, high
grade or anything like that.

788
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,400
It was a scatter of smallish
things.

789
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,400
And by smallish I mean up to a
few 100,000 oz but quite close.

790
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,200
M&A that company.
Yeah.

791
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,560
Well, I mean, one, one thing
which I would say Alex

792
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,160
recognised very, very well a
couple of years ago when he

793
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,760
stepped in to be the MD was he
said these might not be

794
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,040
glamorous gold deposits, but
they are so close to other

795
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,600
people's process facilities
don't need to build 1.

796
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,840
So to get into business, we need
only a small level of CapEx.

797
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,560
And that's, I think that's been
a very good thing for him it

798
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,200
because he's gone through a few
transactions.

799
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,560
I would say that the market is
saying, well, you show me that

800
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,480
you can make money now, but you
know, he's making money poured

801
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,720
gold the other day.
So I suspect that you give it a

802
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:17,480
couple of quarters of delivery
there and the market will start

803
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,880
to listen and we'll start to
say, well, let's talk about

804
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,000
growth.
All of a sudden the, the growth

805
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,560
story which they now have is
that the cash flow they make

806
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:29,120
from those small assets and
this, this, this, this trend of

807
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:32,320
commercializing small assets has
become possible in the gold

808
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,840
market because there's so many
big mills around.

809
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,680
There's a lot of capacity to be
processing parcels of all.

810
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,880
I mean, I, I know that's a glib
remark.

811
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,880
Not every single one has
capacity and it can vary in

812
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,080
time.
But it wasn't possible 10 years

813
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,960
ago. 10 years ago, if you had a
gold deposit, you had to build

814
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,360
your own mill.
That was just the way it worked.

815
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,160
And it was almost a disgrace to
go to the market and say, no,

816
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,080
we're just going to dig it up
and sell it to make a little bit

817
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,280
of money.
Now, if you do it, you can

818
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,360
achieve a pretty reasonable
valuation off of the back of

819
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,000
doing that, and you can make
good cash, particularly if

820
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,120
you're doing it today.
Yeah, so.

821
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,800
Then you can risk share like you
don't even have to stump up the

822
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,280
CapEx to do it.
Like we're drinking stubbies of

823
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,440
of MMS, right?
Like, yeah, and and they're one

824
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,120
of The Pioneers.
Of that model funny you should

825
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,440
mention it.
You guys are usually pretty

826
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:14,720
quiet about your sponsors,
aren't you?

827
00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:18,440
So no, we're he's.
Given you the layup mate, have

828
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,080
we done them this way?
But it's it.

829
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,080
Is interesting, right?
Like, I mean, I mean, you know,

830
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,560
they're one of several who
who've been willing to come on

831
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,160
the scene and, and, and really
provide an Ave. for cash flow

832
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,400
for these gold juniors by taking
like wearing a fair bit of risk

833
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,720
in the process, but sharing the
upside, the equity upside.

834
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:36,880
And in a rising gold market,
everyone's very happy with that

835
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,200
situation.
Including shareholders and

836
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,560
therein is the is the the point
as well.

837
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,080
So all of a sudden you can do
these small gold deposits.

838
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,600
The thing is that for anyone who
owns a small gold deposit, you

839
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,840
know, if they go to
institutional investors and say,

840
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,440
well, we're a $15 million
company, we've made $8 million

841
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,720
of cash in the last 12 months,
aren't we wonderful?

842
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:55,600
You should buy us.
The institution goes, well,

843
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,200
that's great, but what next?
I mean, you've made that money,

844
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,960
you've got nothing left, what
are you going to apply it to?

845
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,720
So that's the question with a
lot of these companies.

846
00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:06,200
And for us, Bright Star was
something we wanted to get

847
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,320
involved with because we saw
this commercialization over a,

848
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,400
you know, it was, it was a good
million oz that we could see

849
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,200
were possible between the in the
Menzies area.

850
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,600
And that's over a period of time
that that would generate a

851
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,560
reasonable amount of cash.
But at the start, and that was a

852
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,240
smaller investment for us to
start with, there wasn't the big

853
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:26,480
growth asset.
So when Alex's approach to us

854
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,080
was to say we'd like to do
something with Alto, that's

855
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,440
where the growth project came
in.

856
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,280
So, you know, to fund Alto all
on its own, there's dilution to

857
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:36,560
shareholders.
You got to take that into

858
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,760
account with whatever return
profile you think you're you're

859
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,000
expecting from the asset.
And if you put that into a

860
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,680
company which has the ability to
fund it without having to raise

861
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,400
money, then all of a sudden that
just gets squeezed into the

862
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:47,520
amount of shares which are on
issue.

863
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,480
So that, that was the investment
thesis that saw us build our

864
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,320
position when that deal took
place.

865
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,400
And I, I still think it was a
fantastic deal.

866
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,600
So interestingly, you know,
Bright Star has traded fairly

867
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,760
flat since that deal took place.
And I think when you buy

868
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,040
something and you issue a lot of
shares, there's indigestion.

869
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,320
So a lot of those get turned
over style, shareholders,

870
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,880
whatever.
Consolidation of shares too, so.

871
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:10,320
I think so too, yeah.
Yeah.

872
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,520
But but you know, they've,
they've done that.

873
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,680
I think they've got a lot of
that hard work in the market

874
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,840
behind them.
They're now concentrating as far

875
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,800
as I can see on develop on
delivering that, that first part

876
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,000
of the story.
And you know, for them to be

877
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,760
able to work aggressively on a
project like that sandstone

878
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,400
project, which Alto had that
needed that was living on 2 to

879
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,920
$3,000,000 a year of exploration
and spend, which is not enough

880
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,120
to be doing it justice.
I think the market won't sit

881
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,480
there and be patient and say
we'll reward you for that.

882
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,720
If you're spending between 5:00
and 10:00, that's where you can

883
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:45,080
start to meaningfully grow
resources and do it in a period

884
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,160
of time where the market can see
that and go this is getting a

885
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,880
lot bigger.
And I mean, that's, you know,

886
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,480
there's, I think there's been
about 5-4 to 5 million oz

887
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,800
produced over that sandstone
greenstone belt, which Bright

888
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:58,800
Star don't own the whole lot of,
but between them and the

889
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,600
neighbor, they have most of it.
That's a hell of a lot of gold

890
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,280
for one greenstone belt.
And I mean, the average depth of

891
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,120
drilling is like 70 or 80
meters.

892
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,360
So, you know, you extrapolate
that to 200 and what's the

893
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,240
inventory going to look like?
You know, you're still well

894
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:15,320
within open pitable depth and
there's some pretty big

895
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,680
footprints in there.
So that that is an exploration

896
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,200
and growth story is amazing.
So I mean, if you're asking me

897
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,800
and this is not informed by what
they've told me, I'd cast my eye

898
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,080
over the maps and, you know, use
my own imagination.

899
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,680
They bought something at
Sandstone between that and the

900
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,640
Gateway Gold tenure which was
dealt in, which is about one,

901
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,120
one and a half million oz.
So for that to turn into a two

902
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,400
and a three, I think can happen
reasonably rapidly and in the

903
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,640
sense of, you know, 1-2 or three
years.

904
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,080
And by the time you've got
3,000,000 oz sitting in that

905
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,000
part of the world, which is
ringed by Mills, but no one in

906
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,840
the middle, it's like, well,
it's a 3,000,000 oz asset, which

907
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:51,960
would be very attractive.
It's in.

908
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:53,880
The middle.
But it's not very, very good

909
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:55,280
news.
It's pretty much dead, yeah.

910
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,440
Yeah, by by process facility, I
mean something that you can put

911
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,400
ore into and then gold comes out
the other end.

912
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,520
Well, do you think they're
probably and do you think

913
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,720
they're probably getting
penalised because they

914
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:08,320
essentially have to build a mill
there?

915
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,840
Like what The the only two
options I can think of that have

916
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,360
enough potential scale close
enough by will be Kirka Locker

917
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,240
and Walluna.
And they're both pretty

918
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,520
trackable.
It's trackable, but it's still a

919
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:22,960
good chunk.
So there.

920
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,400
Do you think they know that
there's a big, it is a growth

921
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,200
story, yes, but they're going to
have to build it.

922
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,120
Well, I think that they're in
business elsewhere and their

923
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,440
intention is to apply the cash
flow.

924
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,160
They're getting to
reestablishing cash flow out of

925
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,760
their own process facility at
Laverton, which would mean

926
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,160
they're an owner operator and
you know, they they would have a

927
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,280
lot more control over their own
destiny than from the Labourton

928
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,000
perspective.
Might they just keep giving it

929
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,920
to RAL?
Well, they.

930
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,120
Couldn't wouldn't be a lot of
because that's a until Genesis

931
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,520
get their, you know, get their
own operations up and go under

932
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,680
the to feed, you know,
potentially 4 million tonne

933
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,400
through that Mount Morgan's
mill.

934
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,760
Like they'll be crime for dirt.
Well, I would have thought so

935
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,240
too, but I don't know how
rallied feel about me saying

936
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:08,600
that He's desperate for that
dirt.

937
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:11,840
I don't know if it's quite so
simple, but you know, there's

938
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:16,160
bound to be a playoff between
how much it costs to, you know,

939
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,320
have the dirt process there
anywhere else or to bring your

940
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,680
own facility along.
Now, if there wasn't a an

941
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,000
existing facility at Laverton,
the bright star could

942
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,520
rejuvenate.
Different decision, you know.

943
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,800
So clearly it gives them that
optionality which can be very,

944
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,160
very helpful in discussions.
But I suppose if in, I don't

945
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,120
know, let's say it's three years
from now, they start saying what

946
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,320
should we do at Sandstone?
If you've been operating for

947
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,640
that long, you've built your
market capitalization to a

948
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,480
certain level.
Yeah, you'll, you'll have to

949
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,200
build a new milling facility,
but how will you do that?

950
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,320
Well, I would expect you'd have
a much bigger market cap to be

951
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,320
able to raise money off.
So it might not be as

952
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,760
dilutionary.
You may have the cash flow to,

953
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,800
to fund your equity and your
ability to raise debt is going

954
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,400
to be, you'll have far more
flexibility.

955
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,440
So I, I don't know if that
penalisation would be occurring

956
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,120
now.
If I had to say what's what's

957
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,320
holding Bright Star back, it
would be there's been selling of

958
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,160
former Alto shareholders and
there's probably been a

959
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,400
perception that there's been a
couple of deals to pull things

960
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:17,640
together.
Is there any more of that?

961
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,800
And they just need to settle
into a rhythm of delivery.

962
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,480
And it looks to me like that's
what they're doing.

963
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,040
What about the Menzies stuff
like do you think they need to

964
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,760
probably simplify the business a
bit and divest because it's,

965
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,520
it's, there's a lot going on and
it's probably, it's a bit hard

966
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,160
to actually wrap your head
around of, you know, what's,

967
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:34,960
where's all this shit coming
from?

968
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,320
I've introduced Alex at a couple
of situations recently where I

969
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,840
think he had 15 minutes and in
both situations I was standing

970
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,160
next to him at about the 17
minute mark.

971
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,000
Go mate, are you finished?
So he has a big story to tell.

972
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,280
So I mean your point around
simplification, you know, if

973
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,000
someone offered to take it off
your hands, would you do it?

974
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,040
I, I don't know.
I as a shareholder, I'd say,

975
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,520
well, if there was value coming
in, you'd, you'd be foolish not

976
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,360
to think about it.
But they, they had produced from

977
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,280
Menzies in the last 12 months,
which I, I think that probably

978
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,440
shows you that.
But for getting the resources

979
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,760
set up in a milling arrangement,
they could do that again.

980
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,520
In which case, if you think you
can make money from it, then the

981
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,760
impetus to be trying to do
something with it might diminish

982
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,200
pretty quickly.
So I, I guess, you know, if

983
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,680
people are talking about it,
then they'd be weighing up 1

984
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,240
alternative against the other.
But I think I mean from from

985
00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:29,160
chatting to those guys and
keeping in touch with them, they

986
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,760
seem pretty focused on
delivering gold and there's

987
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,600
probably far more kudos in doing
that than there would be on

988
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,840
executing more deals unless they
were ridiculously priced.

989
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,440
So and.
You've got another gold junior

990
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:47,160
which has probably, yeah, not
had a real run like some of the

991
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,960
other portfolio ones.
Saturn who yeah to that to

992
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,280
announced today raised 23
million bucks.

993
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,920
You guys tipped in another 4 and
you you kind of maintain that 17

994
00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,240
1/2 percentage shareholding of
the company.

995
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,880
You speak to people and
historically there's there's

996
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,600
been a, you know a knock on
Saturn that it's 10 million ton

997
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,360
per annum heap leach.
So everyone's scared of it

998
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,760
because it's massive size and
also like how many 10 million

999
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,400
ton per annum heap bleach is
going around that's a lot of

1000
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:15,480
dirt to move yadda yadda, but at
these gold prices probably makes

1001
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,680
a fair bit of money.
Are you not worried about any of

1002
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,440
the, the, the, the logistical
kind of nerves that, that a lot

1003
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,400
of the market has here?
No, not so much.

1004
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,360
I mean, I think, I think the
Western Australian mining

1005
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,400
industry is very familiar with
bulk operations.

1006
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,920
What they're not familiar with
is bulk operations in a gold

1007
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:34,600
mine.
And that's because in most gold

1008
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,320
mines, you need to be extremely
selective because your gold,

1009
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,640
your gold zone, you know, could
be somewhere between half a

1010
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,480
meter wide and 10 meters wide,
you know, 10 meters in a great

1011
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,200
case.
And if you leave half a metre of

1012
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:48,760
that behind or put it in with a
waste or take too much waste, it

1013
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,360
can be a real problem for you in
the Saturn case.

1014
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,400
I mean, one of the reasons which
we really like Saturn and this

1015
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,040
is our biggest investment by
funds deployed.

1016
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,240
So it's something that we've
demonstrated a fair bit of

1017
00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:03,000
commitment to.
And I think by the time you've

1018
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,080
invested that much money in it,
your futures are somewhat

1019
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:07,800
intertwined.
I mean, if we decided tomorrow

1020
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,760
that we're sick of Saturn, the
ability to sell that for us is

1021
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,400
it's a moot point.
So you know, we are, we think

1022
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,040
very highly of those guys.
The reason to be there, the

1023
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,040
feeling of longevity is all is
all present.

1024
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:24,120
But looking at the project, take
your point about heat bleaching,

1025
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,800
if that project was in North
America, we wouldn't be having

1026
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:28,920
this discussion.
We'd be talking about how they

1027
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,480
started producing 6 months ago
and the resource is still

1028
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,840
growing.
I think it's a, it's a market

1029
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,240
that that isn't as familiar with
heat bleaching.

1030
00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:39,520
And I get that, you know, that's
just a, that's a bridge that

1031
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,840
needs to be crossed.
But the important thing about

1032
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,200
that deposit is inside of a pit
design, the strip ratio is about

1033
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,640
1 1/2 to 1.
So you look at any other gold

1034
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,400
mine in WA and how much waste do
you have to move to get a tonne

1035
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,200
of ore to the wrong?
And it's probably the average is

1036
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,400
going to be between 5:00 and
10:00.

1037
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,760
In this case it's 1 1/2.
So you're moving a lot less

1038
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,400
waste.
So the tonne, dollar per tonne

1039
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,000
cost of moving ore of generating
ore is just like a fraction.

1040
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,440
Plus, you know any other open,
most other gold open pits, you

1041
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,360
might blast 10 metres of of of
material then to mine it,

1042
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,760
whether it's oral waste, you
take it in 2 1/2 meter flitches,

1043
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,760
maybe 5 if you're really being
aggressive in order to be

1044
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,280
selective.
In this case, you know you blast

1045
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,840
10 and you'll mine it with a
face shovel rather than needing

1046
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,600
you use a digger.
So the, the efficiency of moving

1047
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,360
that material and, and the need
to be selective, just being so

1048
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,440
much less.
I think he's a big protection

1049
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,400
because you don't, you just
don't face that risk of

1050
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:36,320
accidentally throwing the ore
away because you're going to be

1051
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,280
in awe for three days, not for
half an hour as you are in most

1052
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,960
open pits.
And then heap leach processing.

1053
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,320
I mean, the, the risk you have
on heap leach processing is will

1054
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,920
the recovery work and will the
heaps stand up in a geotech

1055
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,720
sense to the height that you
need them to in order to

1056
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:55,200
efficiently irrigate them?
I think it's 44 odd percent of

1057
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,000
gold is produced in the world
comes out of heap leachers.

1058
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,800
This is this is a technology
which is not new.

1059
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,760
It's very, very well understood.
So I think, you know, we feel

1060
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,320
like we've been buying something
which is poorly understood in a,

1061
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,120
in a market which really gets
gold.

1062
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,760
So, you know, I'm a bit puzzled
as to exactly how that'll come

1063
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:14,560
about.
But I know that there are there

1064
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,720
are foreign companies that drop
in and say hello and they're

1065
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:18,760
like, jeez, mate, you've got
something special there.

1066
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,320
So if there's that kind of eyes
on it, these companies, you

1067
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:24,920
know, aren't operating in the
Australian market.

1068
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,280
But if they needed an excuse to
having the right size asset, you

1069
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,000
know this is 120,000 oz per
annum for 10 years or more.

1070
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaking like a 7 1/2%
shareholder.

1071
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:35,520
There.
What do you say?

1072
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,800
Ding, Ding, Ding.
Yeah, yeah, Must disclose it,

1073
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:39,240
but.
We're gonna have to say a few of

1074
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:41,960
them when we talk about ally
stocks, which, yeah, Shorty

1075
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:43,600
chop.
Can't believe you haven't

1076
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,160
mentioned 1 yet.
Yeah, we'll get there.

1077
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,040
We'll get there.
She did give us her To Do List,

1078
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:49,600
didn't she?
So yeah, could you put a good

1079
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:50,880
word in for?
Yeah, exactly.

1080
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,480
And I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm
looking at your portfolio and,

1081
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:57,560
and we're kind of there's, you
know, there's a couple of names

1082
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,040
I'm not very familiar with, to
be honest as well, like Coon,

1083
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,960
Coonberry Gold and you know, in
addition to them Sunshine

1084
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,320
Metals.
Run me through what you what you

1085
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,960
see there with those names.
Well, Cunenbury first we

1086
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,800
invested in Cunenbury when it
had one project, it's namesake,

1087
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,680
which is in northwestern NSW,
Cunenbury project.

1088
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,720
It's a, it's an area where
there's been a very substantial

1089
00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:21,560
amount of alluvial gold mining.
So there's been shedding of

1090
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:24,680
Nuggets which don't look like
they've travelled very far for a

1091
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,920
long period of time.
It's sort of had a gold rush in

1092
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,160
the era of gold rushes, but very
remote, very dry, very difficult

1093
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,360
to get to, and close enough to
Broken Hill that when people

1094
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,640
started finding gold, there was
also a big silver rush to the

1095
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,960
Broken Hill area.
So it kind of was found and then

1096
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,920
forgotten.
I think there's been a lot of

1097
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:47,320
modern prospecting success and
there's been a few Hard Rock

1098
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:51,360
intersections and, you know,
golden quartz samples picked up.

1099
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,320
So there's all this smoke.
We invested in that at a

1100
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:55,880
valuation which was incredibly
low.

1101
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,760
I think it was like an EV of
about 1.2 million bucks that the

1102
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,640
day we first invested.
So we put money in effectively

1103
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,600
buying into a shell which had a
project in it.

1104
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,080
It had a chance.
It had fantastic management.

1105
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,760
I think very highly of the, of
the MD there and also the board

1106
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,280
and off they went to explore.
That wasn't to be they, they

1107
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:15,560
just didn't get the instant
success.

1108
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,360
And you know, exploration,
sometimes it can cost you

1109
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:19,480
1,000,000 bucks to find
something.

1110
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:21,160
It's just you don't know if it's
going to be your first million

1111
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,040
bucks or yeah, 100th, 1,000,000
bucks.

1112
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:26,440
So in their case, they wisely
said, you know, rather than

1113
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,840
keeping being aggressive with
this, they came across a deal to

1114
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,040
deal into some effectively a
back door listing of selection

1115
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,720
of NSW exploration portfolio.
And there were some real

1116
00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:39,040
crackers in this.
I mean, this was some ex Newmont

1117
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:40,600
guys.
They put together some big

1118
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,600
targets.
They had some JVS with Newmont.

1119
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,040
They had a high grade gold
situation up close to Armadale

1120
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,600
that got vended in and and from
there I think I think that

1121
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,440
stocks up about 4 1/2 times.
So it's been a fantastic

1122
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:57,520
performance off the back of that
deal in and the new slow which

1123
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,160
can come from that and you know
fantastic valuation that had

1124
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,360
occurred at as well.
So it was not one of those silly

1125
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,000
deals where it it happens in an
enormous number and then it

1126
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,040
trades backwards because
everybody realises how greedy it

1127
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:08,600
was.
It was exactly the other way

1128
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,680
around to that.
So Coonabri to us when we invest

1129
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:13,600
in early stage exploration, you
can't value it.

1130
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:15,320
You're you're trading on
speculation.

1131
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:16,640
You don't know what's going to
happen.

1132
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:18,320
You can have all the hopes in
the world.

1133
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:19,800
You can have magnificent
science.

1134
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:21,760
It can happen on a really nice
weather day.

1135
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,680
You can be as lucky as you want.
But you know, in the end, if it

1136
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,560
doesn't produce a discovery that
really gets the market going,

1137
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:28,720
then you don't get your price
return.

1138
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:31,440
So to do it, you have to feel
like you're doing it at a

1139
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,520
absolute rock bottom value and
you have to be able to see a

1140
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:38,280
transformational outcome to it.
So in Canonbury's case, we

1141
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,520
reasoned that it, it wouldn't
take as much to produce a 10 or

1142
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,840
20 times return from, I think
we're about $600,000 in there

1143
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,840
from that level of investment.
And, and so it was something

1144
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,080
where we could feel, well,
there's, there's a really good

1145
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,680
possible return.
We can see many, many, many

1146
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:57,880
opportunities for that to occur.
And we're doing it at a cheap

1147
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,040
level.
So there's, there's not a lot

1148
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,800
holding back that return if, if
they get lucky with the result.

1149
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,560
And Sunshine, Sunshine is
probably the opposite of that.

1150
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,080
Damian Keyes, the managing
director, is a guy I've known

1151
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,480
since uni.
He was a year above me at uni.

1152
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:14,960
Casey wouldn't thank me for
saying he started a couple of

1153
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:16,760
years ahead of me and I, I
didn't catch up.

1154
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:17,880
It's, you know, he took his
time.

1155
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:24,400
So Casey's going on to, I mean,
he has been behind some fabulous

1156
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:28,200
project pull togethers.
So probably the best one is

1157
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,120
Penny W, which was a chemical
spectrum got taken over by

1158
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:32,680
Remilius for about 300 million
bucks.

1159
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,240
And Casey had been involved in
the pull apart of the geology

1160
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:37,200
and then putting it back
together.

1161
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,200
And that's what Casey does.
Fantastic with data sets,

1162
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,360
fantastic with working with
people in that environment.

1163
00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:47,760
And he was exploring in North
QLD Red River had gone into

1164
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,760
administration and there.
We just spoke about them that I

1165
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,720
on the back of Hillgrove, OH.
I haven't, I haven't listened to

1166
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:55,040
that one that yeah, just.
Just got up.

1167
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,640
Poor, old, poor old River went
out of business at just the

1168
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,600
wrong moment there.
They had a, they had a troubled

1169
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,520
operation at Falanga.
And by troubled, I mean they'd

1170
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,560
run into all kinds of financial
problems and, and Falanga had

1171
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,640
brought that operating entity to
its knees.

1172
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,440
So it was put into
administration shortly before

1173
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:16,760
the whole of Red River went to
the administrators.

1174
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:21,120
So Casey and Sunshine dealt with
the administrators of Red River

1175
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,480
to purchase this.
And what was attractive was the

1176
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,280
Thalanga project gets pulled
out, you get everything else.

1177
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,360
So you take no liabilities,
you're not operating.

1178
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,080
But there is a hell of a lot of
money had been spent in the data

1179
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:32,880
set.
And I think, you know, the

1180
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,720
replacement value of the data
which they acquired in that move

1181
00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:38,960
would have been probably 40 or
$50 million worth of years and

1182
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,600
years and years of soil work,
geophysics, drilling.

1183
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,560
There was an existing resource
at a project called Lyontam.

1184
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,920
They've grown that by about 50%.
I think it started at about 4

1185
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:49,400
million tonnes.
It's now 6,000,000 tonnes.

1186
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,720
And it was a mixed metal.
So it's AVMS, it's got zinc,

1187
00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:55,480
copper, gold.
They drilled a few holes.

1188
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,840
But the, the, the wonderful
thing which Casey did yet again

1189
00:54:57,840 --> 00:54:59,920
was pulled the geology of pieces
and said where are the high

1190
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:03,000
grade shoots?
You know, first we invested in

1191
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,760
this as a base metals investment
wanting to diversify our

1192
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,840
commodity sort of exposure.
And I think the second or third

1193
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,640
result that he had was about 20
odd metres at 19 grams gold.

1194
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,280
And it was like this is supposed
to be our base metals exposure.

1195
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,200
So they performed strongly off
of that.

1196
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,560
They repeated it with another
hit and this was drilling into

1197
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,600
high grade shoot in the deposit.
So it didn't, you know, it

1198
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:27,720
didn't reflect what the rest of
the deposit look like.

1199
00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:33,120
But they've done a wonderful job
of fleshing out exactly what

1200
00:55:33,240 --> 00:55:35,520
loads of which and, and I don't
think that have been

1201
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:37,840
particularly well done.
So they now have a resource

1202
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,680
which I think has been upgraded
in terms of quality.

1203
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,520
It's been expanded.
But in that same period of time

1204
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,720
they've also brought many, many
targets forward.

1205
00:55:44,720 --> 00:55:48,520
So we bought into that for circa
a $10 million EV.

1206
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,280
It's more or less been the same
each time we've invested and we

1207
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,280
put a bit of money in another
half $1,000,000 in recently.

1208
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,000
And and the thesis was Lion Town
is not far from being the scale

1209
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:00,840
that it probably could be
thought about to be developed.

1210
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,720
No one is thinking outside of
probably the heartland of WA

1211
00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:07,320
about how you can put your roar
into someone else's mill.

1212
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,760
And that's a very well developed
area, the Charters Towers area.

1213
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,800
So there's you know, four or
five plants or former plant

1214
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:16,400
sites.
There are, there are some

1215
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,920
tailings opportunities which
would be quite valuable that I

1216
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,800
think probably feed into the
critical minerals piece in

1217
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,440
Queensland.
So that doesn't exist in WA, It

1218
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,320
does in North Queensland and
there's a clean up that goes

1219
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,960
along with that.
So sunshine has a very dynamic

1220
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,280
outlook there.
But they they have something

1221
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:34,840
which is very valuable in the
ground.

1222
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,960
I think it is developable.
They're going to add to that in

1223
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:40,120
the next couple of years and you
know if you're going to back

1224
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,920
anyone to look in the right
place, easy to be one of the

1225
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:44,480
very few people that I'd choose
to do that.

1226
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:46,160
And he's operating in a data
rich environment.

1227
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,760
So that one continues to go
under the radar of the market.

1228
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,000
But everybody has their moment
and I think that one, that one

1229
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:53,840
will probably set up really
reasonably soon.

1230
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:55,200
Like it?
It's our sunshine soon.

1231
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:57,760
Yeah, yeah, it'll have its day
in the sun.

1232
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,040
We should we should pick your
brain Headley about, you know, a

1233
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,880
lot of the the gold projects
that aren't even in your in your

1234
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,560
portfolio, but I'm sure you've
you've run your eyes over them

1235
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,480
and and have a view.
And there's there's no shortage

1236
00:57:10,480 --> 00:57:14,400
of, of companies that have a
fair endowment that yeah, like

1237
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,840
maybe go under the radar or, or
or or or maybe you're going to

1238
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:19,920
have their moment or have had
their moment in the past.

1239
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,240
But Ozgold's Katanning really
comes to mind.

1240
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:25,480
Been around a long time.
You know, there's, there's

1241
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,920
3,000,000 oz resource there.
Will it, will it be a, you know,

1242
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,280
will it get developed in the
midst of this gold cycle?

1243
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:34,840
Do you think?
Are you, are you kind of on the

1244
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,360
on the sidelines watching?
Well, everything that has an

1245
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,720
established inventory now has
the best chance that it's going

1246
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:42,600
to have, right?
Because when the gold market

1247
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,000
comes, your ability to raise
money comes with it.

1248
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:49,720
I think one of the things, and
particularly in WA is there are

1249
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:51,840
a lot of people who look at a
project and then go, what's it

1250
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:53,360
near?
Who could take it over?

1251
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:55,520
Where's the tension?
Is there another mill?

1252
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:57,680
You know that and that in this
current market that's a big

1253
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,200
feature.
Osgold sits out there on its

1254
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:01,440
own.
That project was originally

1255
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,720
called Boddington South by some
of the original management,

1256
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,800
which you know, it is South of
Boddington, but bloody long way.

1257
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,000
So, you know, it's not like you
can consider it a, an extension

1258
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:13,360
or even analogous.
It's just in the vague region.

1259
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:16,000
You might as well call it
fucking Perth South or

1260
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:19,400
something.
But you know the originally as

1261
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:20,400
well.
I can remember some of the

1262
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,480
intersections that came from the
first management team after that

1263
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,600
company listed and it went from
about a $8 million IPO to being

1264
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:29,880
160 mill market cap company.
I remember writing due diligence

1265
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:31,720
on it and scratching my head
just going, they've got an

1266
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:34,120
incredibly small deposit.
Why is this going to such a

1267
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:35,640
value?
A lot of border under the bridge

1268
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,520
since then, but things that sort
of get a run on and then fall

1269
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:41,720
flat on their face, which is
what happened many, many years

1270
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,880
ago.
That rejuvenation is always

1271
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,800
challenged because anytime you
get a run of luck, there's

1272
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,080
always someone style that just
goes, oh, I don't trust you

1273
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:51,840
anymore.
And you know, your price goes

1274
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:53,240
up, comes straight back down as
they sell.

1275
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,280
So I don't know if that's still
a factor, but it, you know, it

1276
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:58,760
is distal.
So it needs to develop itself

1277
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:00,480
all on its own.
It needs to find that scale.

1278
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:04,160
And I think that's probably one
of the things, which is what the

1279
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,720
market would be thinking, do I
fund them or do I fund something

1280
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:08,480
where there is that bit of
tension?

1281
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:11,720
Now, having said that, they have
a register, which is pretty

1282
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:13,480
impressive.
You know, Dundee's a big

1283
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,320
shareholder there.
They're a global gold investor.

1284
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,840
They know what they're doing.
They've put representatives on

1285
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:19,480
the board.
And John Dalwood's been around.

1286
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:22,440
He, he's operated in some very
tough parts of the world as

1287
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:24,320
well.
So, you know, if you want to

1288
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,360
give something a good chance,
give it a gold, a good gold

1289
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,080
market and give it the people
who know what they're doing.

1290
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,760
So, you know, if you could pick
that up, which I know you can't,

1291
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,320
and put it right next to
Kalgoorlie, it wouldn't be in

1292
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,760
the ground anymore.
So I'd say the fact the reason

1293
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:40,680
why it's undeveloped is, is
because of where it is, and

1294
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:42,640
that's one of the things that
I'll need to overcome it.

1295
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,600
Was it was a historic mine,
right Like there is there is

1296
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,160
like, you know, historic open
pits there.

1297
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:48,520
So at some point it was mine,
but.

1298
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,560
It's Peter Alexander who was
Dominion at the time.

1299
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:55,520
I remember bumping into him.
It would have been 10 or 12

1300
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,880
years ago and I, I happened to
mention to him that I've been

1301
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,280
looking at and he goes, I
remember mining that and it was

1302
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:03,080
probably 30 years ago at that
point.

1303
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,600
So Dominion Once Upon a time.
Is he not the follower that made

1304
01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,160
the pyjamas different?
Peter Alexander.

1305
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:11,720
I asked him that.
I asked him that myself once,

1306
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,520
and he he was suitably
ambiguous.

1307
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:16,080
But no, I don't think the two
are connected.

1308
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:18,680
You're right.
Or if you're a bloody speaking

1309
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:23,000
because back to Medallion
though, you know, pushing the

1310
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:25,120
story around the exact same
time.

1311
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,360
Do you think Alkane are going to
act on them?

1312
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:29,800
They wouldn't have went in there
for no reason.

1313
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:34,200
Well, Alkane's invested in a
number of companies in an equity

1314
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,200
sense.
I've been involved in companies

1315
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,160
where the name's been mentioned.
So you wouldn't be the first

1316
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,120
time they bought equity in a
company and they haven't taken

1317
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:44,840
one over yet.
Callitus, Genesis, historically.

1318
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:48,040
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
Now that doesn't, I mean that

1319
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:49,440
all that is, is a pattern,
right?

1320
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,000
And patterns can evolve in
interesting ways because

1321
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,520
sometimes you try something and
try something and try something

1322
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:56,800
and then you do it and you
succeed at what you were going

1323
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:58,000
out there to do.
And I don't know what they're

1324
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,240
trying to achieve.
I, I would say they're not an

1325
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,760
investment company because they
are a gold mining company and a,

1326
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,320
and a mining company, in which
case you can see some of the

1327
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,560
reasoning.
Now I look at the pattern of the

1328
01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:12,160
things which they had done.
And Genesis was before RAL, they

1329
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:14,120
were backing something where I
think they probably felt they

1330
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,680
could import some mining
expertise.

1331
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,600
Then the deal came together,
which created the modern Genesis

1332
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,800
and Rally came in with it and
what Caddell came at then if

1333
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,120
they were value oriented, they
probably said, well, you know,

1334
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:29,880
the equation has changed Caledus
long way from the heartland of

1335
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:31,840
gold.
So I think they'll probably

1336
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,520
around the edges going where is
the something where we can see

1337
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:38,200
value.
We might be able to aid with our

1338
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,840
balance sheet.
So, you know, maybe if you and

1339
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,520
then in Caledus's case, it, it
probably tipped the other way

1340
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,480
and he knows maybe they looked
at it after it after it fell

1341
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,000
over.
But so medallion, you know, fits

1342
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:54,120
that that that pattern of it's
on the edge.

1343
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:56,000
It's something where all came
probably felt that they could

1344
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:57,160
add value.
And I'm guessing at that.

1345
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,800
I don't know those guys, but
yeah, probably felt they could

1346
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:03,000
add value.
So does the equation evolve from

1347
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,560
here?
The fact that it looks to have a

1348
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:12,120
milling solution which reduces
CapEx of developing it has

1349
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,440
changed the share price.
But does that change the way

1350
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,240
that you look at it as a
potential acquirer?

1351
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:17,520
I don't know.
It probably makes a few things

1352
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:19,640
easier.
So I, I think it's probably too

1353
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,160
early to, to conclude which way
they might go.

1354
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,240
And I don't think there's any
evidence to say whether they're

1355
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:27,840
coming or going at the moment.
So, you know, we can only

1356
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,880
speculate and I love it when
people speculate because Ted's

1357
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:32,880
people pay a lot more for
something that they don't

1358
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,960
understand than what they do.
So long may that go on.

1359
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:43,160
Rocks you and me yeah had a
pretty pretty hefty raise

1360
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:47,000
recently and Hawks points been
really patient and and and

1361
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:49,840
continue to to put capital into
it sort of you know their

1362
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,240
patients certainly paid off with
or abandoned recent history.

1363
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:54,040
Will it?
Will it repeat with rocks?

1364
01:02:54,120 --> 01:02:58,600
And Capricorn, they, yeah, from,
from sitting and sitting and

1365
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:00,040
sitting.
They, they've done well with

1366
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,200
some projects which have, which
have flourished.

1367
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:05,080
Look, I, I don't know.
You've got to be careful.

1368
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:09,360
Any investor looking into
something, whether it's genius

1369
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:10,920
or luck, it wears off sooner or
later.

1370
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:12,440
So you got to be careful
following people into

1371
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:14,840
situations.
And I think in the the case of

1372
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:18,240
rocks, they do have an
established resource base.

1373
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:20,240
There's a hell of a lot of money
been put into drilling there.

1374
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:22,920
It is high grade, you know, just
compared to anything, it's

1375
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,720
highest grade.
You guys did a fantastic session

1376
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:27,800
with Rob.
I think you called him

1377
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:30,320
Refractory Rob at the time.
It's extractory, Rob.

1378
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:32,880
Extractory, Rob.
In addition to that, we did a

1379
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,240
met episode with Nathan Stewart.
He's now joined the board too.

1380
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:37,960
Yeah.
Well, I mean, rocks has kind of

1381
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,240
changed its tempo recently had
it, hasn't it?

1382
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:44,160
And I think sometimes it might
not be that a management team is

1383
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:47,240
doing the wrong thing.
It's just that they do they

1384
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:49,760
March along the strategy pathway
that they've agreed and

1385
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,800
sometimes that just doesn't
float the boat of the market.

1386
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,800
And you know, so I think it's
possible to say that with Rocks,

1387
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,520
the market was just not in the
groove of that.

1388
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:02,240
And by changing the management
and in doing so changing the

1389
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:05,200
pathway and they've more or less
said, right, let's raise money,

1390
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:07,240
let's start dewatering this
thing and we'll go for it.

1391
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,600
I think that probably portrays a
sense of confidence to say we

1392
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,640
think this is going to work.
Follow us, you know, and and

1393
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:15,640
you'll you'll find out one way
or the other right now.

1394
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:18,160
Gold price obviously turned it
it was.

1395
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:20,720
I think that's a lot of.
Coincided with the time as well

1396
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:25,160
where all juniors started going.
Well, it hasn't been all, but I

1397
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:27,800
think the point is that if you
are putting yourself in a

1398
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:31,600
position to show, you know,
we've got this, the shape works

1399
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:35,080
for us, we think we're going to
make it work, then it yet the

1400
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:37,160
market is more likely to follow.
So I think that's how they've

1401
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:41,560
hitched themselves.
Yeah, and the incentive package

1402
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:45,120
that just got announced for the
MD is heavily focused around

1403
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:47,840
pouring concrete and building
something Yep as well.

1404
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:49,400
Hopefully they pour gold as
well.

1405
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:57,120
Yeah, magnetic.
So lady, lady Julie, they've had

1406
01:04:57,120 --> 01:04:59,760
AI think it's lane four or
something like that.

1407
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:01,800
Is a is, you know, a new
discovery.

1408
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:08,520
Yeah, interesting, interesting
lack of of reserve to to date,

1409
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:12,160
but you know, not, no, no lack
of kind of revelations of we've

1410
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:13,480
got a data room open.
Yeah.

1411
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:18,080
What do you make of the deposit?
Well, aggregate numbers all

1412
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:22,360
appear quite interesting.
You know, every so often a

1413
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:25,960
project comes along and you sort
of think, wow, tons of great

1414
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,360
grades, great.
Those numbers on costs look like

1415
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:30,720
they're a bit lower than I would
have thought.

1416
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:33,680
You know, I haven't gone through
their estimate in a great deal

1417
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:35,880
of detail.
Whenever, you know, sometimes

1418
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:39,160
you look at a project at a point
and Northern Star was a great

1419
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:40,800
example of this going back many
years now.

1420
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:42,960
You look at it at any point in
time, particularly when they're

1421
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:44,960
raising money and you think,
shit, you've really got to

1422
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:48,520
perform to to match this price.
If I just go by my estimates,

1423
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:51,920
and it's not that you demand
perfection, but you've you've

1424
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:55,200
got to perform quite well.
And Northern Star did so, you

1425
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:57,920
know, over the raisins that they
did in the way they executed.

1426
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:00,920
And I think probably magnetic is
one of the ones that every time

1427
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:02,960
I've looked at it, when there's
been an opportunity come along,

1428
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:07,080
I've thought there's other
opportunities which which I can

1429
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:10,040
probably find a larger position
for the same money.

1430
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:12,560
And for that reason, I see value
elsewhere.

1431
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:16,720
Now having said that, what I'm
missing clearly is that at a

1432
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:18,920
larger market cap, you can raise
more money, which means that you

1433
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:21,560
can progress faster.
So, you know, that's where

1434
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:25,400
they've been successful.
So my lens doesn't quite work on

1435
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:27,480
that one.
I'm looking for the deeper value

1436
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:31,120
and, and the deeper value takes
delivery risk out of it to some

1437
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:34,320
extent.
But to, to, to adequately remove

1438
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,640
delivery risk, you also need to
remove funding risk.

1439
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:39,480
And they've removed funding risk
better than many of the ones

1440
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,720
that I've looked at.
So I suppose, you know, there's

1441
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:44,200
a collection of comments there.
But one thing that I've sort of

1442
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:47,560
lacked is just an understanding
of the detail.

1443
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:51,720
I mean, if I take a Saturn
presentation for example, you,

1444
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,440
you look at that and any gold E,
any gold BD team of a major in

1445
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:57,640
the world is going to go, OK, we
understand this one quite

1446
01:06:57,640 --> 01:06:59,400
thoroughly.
We know where to stop next time

1447
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:01,560
we're in Perth.
Other companies, prezzo's, you

1448
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:04,040
look at them and you just think,
still don't know what it means.

1449
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:07,280
And some of them have big
numbers, but which appeal

1450
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:08,800
probably more to a retail
audience.

1451
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:11,760
So Magnetic's one of those ones
that I'd probably need to go and

1452
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:14,400
sit with them and go through the
sections to feel like I

1453
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,280
understand it myself.
And when business has been quite

1454
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:19,200
busy, I just haven't had the
opportunity to do that.

1455
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:22,080
So I'm afraid I can't really
offer the sophisticated view on

1456
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,840
that one.
What about assets that have been

1457
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:29,400
purchased off the mid caps that
have come to the end of their

1458
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:32,080
mid cap life and that are sort
of getting rejuvenated?

1459
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:35,800
Well, God, obviously Gorilla
Gold's like a self fulfilling

1460
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,040
prophecy at the moment that just
keeps going up for after they

1461
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,520
got Vivian.
But Lewin Metals purchasing the

1462
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:46,000
martyr assets from Remelia so
that they're being a bit

1463
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:47,920
quieter.
It looked like there wasn't much

1464
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:49,840
happening until the deal
actually went through.

1465
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:54,280
It's gone through these projects
that are on, you know, on mining

1466
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:58,280
leases, permitted mining leases
that have a bit of exploration

1467
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:02,600
potential to find some
extensions or take some take

1468
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,440
some crumbs where which might
not have been at the, you know,

1469
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:08,800
appetite of the Remelius.
That's what do you think of that

1470
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,120
one?
Well, I mean those things

1471
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:15,520
they're always interesting
because you know, any midcap

1472
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:18,880
which is working a set of
assets, if it starts to slip in

1473
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,279
terms of scale and what's,
what's the sensible scale to

1474
01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:23,720
operate those, I don't know.
It's probably smaller than the

1475
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:26,600
Remelius threshold.
So at that point there's

1476
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:29,120
probably an effort where they
go, well, we either drill and

1477
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:32,319
find enough to go on or we go,
well, we'll leave a little but a

1478
01:08:32,319 --> 01:08:33,960
little bit of meat on the bone
for somebody else.

1479
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:37,600
So I think you could probably
you know, you can look at those

1480
01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:40,240
assets and say, is there a way
to make a success of those?

1481
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:44,319
And just because they've been
sold by a Remelius, I think can

1482
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:49,720
can often provide a an overview
which isn't quite correct really

1483
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:51,160
they.
Sold some valuable assets in the

1484
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:53,319
past.
No, they they sold Kathleen

1485
01:08:53,319 --> 01:08:55,840
Valley, the lion town for 400K
or whatever.

1486
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:56,760
Yeah.
Is that right?

1487
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:58,680
Yeah.
There you go.

1488
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:01,160
I I had AI had a long
discussion.

1489
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:05,439
Well, I, my first job as a
geologist was a proper geologist

1490
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:07,880
was working at Mount Keith,
which is a nickel mine, which is

1491
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:12,399
developed by Western Mining.
And every so often on weekends,

1492
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:15,359
you know, we'd grab a couple of
four wheel drives and find a

1493
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:16,960
picnic spot in the Bush or
something like that.

1494
01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:20,000
Kathleen Valley was one of the
places.

1495
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:22,680
There's an old shearer's Hut
near there, which was a not a

1496
01:09:22,680 --> 01:09:24,279
bad place.
There was a nice stone fireplace

1497
01:09:24,279 --> 01:09:25,560
in there.
So in any way that you could go

1498
01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:28,560
in and have a fire and have a
couple of beers and you just get

1499
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:30,120
your crib out of the out of the
mess.

1500
01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:32,359
So we would have driven over
that Pigma type.

1501
01:09:32,359 --> 01:09:35,080
This is cars full of geologists,
you know, and there's quite a

1502
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:37,960
few people I think have kicked
themselves for that opportunity.

1503
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:41,359
You know, buying it at that
point gave you the opportunity

1504
01:09:41,359 --> 01:09:43,760
to run with it.
That's been an interesting

1505
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:45,920
operation, hasn't it?
I mean, you guys have done a lot

1506
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:49,359
of diagnosis of that.
I got a mate who is a fantastic

1507
01:09:49,359 --> 01:09:52,399
project guy.
Like he, he, he, he devours

1508
01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:53,760
everything that companies put
out.

1509
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:57,960
And we talked about, I reckon we
talked about that asset over

1510
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,280
dinner once and we were, you
know, we were getting quite

1511
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:03,000
feisty about it.
And he was like, I can't believe

1512
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:04,720
that they sold it for that.
I should have bought it.

1513
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:08,400
And I said to him, well hang on
mate, after the conversation

1514
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:12,480
we've just had, would we, if you
and I had bought it, we've just

1515
01:10:12,480 --> 01:10:15,720
disagreed on, you know,
orientations and how easy it's

1516
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:18,080
going to be and how many jumbos
you're going to need and how you

1517
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:20,120
process it and all the oil
qualities.

1518
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:22,640
And this is always some stuff we
know now we would have fallen

1519
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:24,360
over at the first hurdle.
We probably would have sold it

1520
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:25,680
to someone else after we'd
bought it.

1521
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,160
So, you know, you you need to
buy it with the vision.

1522
01:10:28,360 --> 01:10:31,120
And Remilius is a gold company.
They're not a, they're not a

1523
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:33,600
lithium company and.
It was, there weren't even drill

1524
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:34,880
holes into that Pegmerton at
that point.

1525
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:37,760
It was just Rockship samples.
And yeah, so I mean, it was

1526
01:10:37,760 --> 01:10:39,480
like.
Lithium wasn't really a thing.

1527
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:41,920
Yeah, yeah, it didn't.
It didn't hurdle out of the

1528
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:43,480
blocks either.
So yeah, yeah.

1529
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:47,360
So no, I mean things like things
like Marta, I haven't looked at.

1530
01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:50,160
I think the, the, the
exploration prospectivity of

1531
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:52,880
those things is interesting.
A look at a lot of them which

1532
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:57,440
are here's an asset which comes
out of a a largish company plus

1533
01:10:57,440 --> 01:10:59,400
or minus a mil.
That's often problematic because

1534
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:02,280
you got, you got to pay for the
value of the processing facility

1535
01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:04,680
which might come with it.
Don't think it did in that case,

1536
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:07,400
but there's another one I looked
at recently which did.

1537
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:10,800
So you're paying, I don't know,
AV of 20 ish to have some sort

1538
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:14,080
of process capacity there.
But if it comes with no or where

1539
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:15,720
you got to go and explore, it's
worthless.

1540
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:17,760
You know, you have the mill, but
you got to keep it in good

1541
01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:20,080
working order.
So you know, this complexity

1542
01:11:20,080 --> 01:11:22,600
that comes with it, this huge
option value, anything you find

1543
01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:24,800
you might be able to act on, but
there's also a threshold

1544
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:28,240
consideration.
So just because it's been done

1545
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,600
by someone bigger doesn't
sterilize it.

1546
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:33,720
But at the same time, that
option of being on a mining

1547
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:37,800
lease and everything else can
sometimes be a poison chalice in

1548
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,400
that, you know, you, you might
have higher expenditures.

1549
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:44,400
So the exploration picture needs
to hurry and hurried exploration

1550
01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:46,920
is always the hardest.
It's you need time to sit back

1551
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:49,120
and think about it and consider
what you're doing so that you

1552
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:51,200
don't you don't drill in the
wrong place just because you're

1553
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:55,040
hurrying.
What a bit juniors that are on

1554
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:59,160
their way to production there or
pre development at the moment

1555
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:02,760
there's a few of them.
Is there any that stand out that

1556
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:06,960
your flag is a bit of a risk of
not executing?

1557
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:09,960
Well.
Only given you the heebie

1558
01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:11,800
jeebies.
There's.

1559
01:12:12,760 --> 01:12:15,360
Obviously ones you don't I'll.
Because I yeah, yeah.

1560
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:16,560
Because that's why we don't hold
them.

1561
01:12:17,440 --> 01:12:21,000
No, there's, there's plenty that
we haven't invested in that I

1562
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:23,200
wouldn't, I wouldn't say we've
kind of come up with a negative

1563
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:25,000
value on it, a negative
impression.

1564
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,960
It might be that we've, we've
had our hands full with

1565
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:29,800
something else.
So something came in last week

1566
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:31,880
and I was thinking, geez, I'd
love to have a better look at

1567
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:34,000
that.
But I'm just finishing my paper

1568
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:36,840
on Saturn for the board.
And you know, I know that if I

1569
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:38,720
put two things in front of my
board, they're just going to

1570
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:41,560
say, mate, one at a time now
we'll do none.

1571
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:43,960
So we've got to manage that
carefully.

1572
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,360
And that's often the reason why
we might look something over is

1573
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:50,120
just to remain focused.
But I'd say one of the biggest

1574
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:52,080
factors, and this is a
roundabout way of answering your

1575
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:55,000
question, one of the biggest
risks that many investors who

1576
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:58,960
are peripheral to the gold space
would perceive in gold at the

1577
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:02,200
moment is that there's been a
long history of, of failed

1578
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:04,840
projects.
And it's not that they developed

1579
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:07,480
something which was absolutely
shit and wouldn't work.

1580
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:10,520
It's that the financing
decisions that they made, the

1581
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:13,360
hedging decisions that they
made, the, the production

1582
01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:17,520
forecast decisions that they
made have it some of it, the

1583
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:21,200
mining of it at some stage have
brought them unstuck.

1584
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:25,040
So, you know, was was Caledus a
story which should never have

1585
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:26,680
been mine?
Well, I understand that that's

1586
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:29,200
producing quite a lot of money
now that the balance sheet

1587
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:32,320
issues have been extinguished
via an administration process.

1588
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:36,320
Bellevue has been a very
successful story in the market

1589
01:13:36,320 --> 01:13:40,480
from whatever it was when it
bought that asset to its peak

1590
01:13:40,480 --> 01:13:42,760
price.
Is it going to be a success from

1591
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,680
its peak price to wherever it is
now and whatever happens next?

1592
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:49,800
Well, the problem is that's
another part of the promise

1593
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:52,240
making to the market which has
been broken and I think

1594
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,680
indelibly marks the sector
Western Australian gold project

1595
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:58,720
developments, you know, is there
a tainted promise that that

1596
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:03,040
comes with all of them?
So I think the more you squeeze

1597
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:05,920
your economics, there's a lot of
projects that I look at where

1598
01:14:05,920 --> 01:14:08,400
they're trying to be 80 to
100,000 oz per annum and really

1599
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:09,960
what they need to be is 50 to
60.

1600
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:13,280
But there's this feeling that if
you're not producing at a

1601
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:15,800
certain rate that institutions
won't look at you.

1602
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:17,840
I think that's, I think that's
flawed.

1603
01:14:18,120 --> 01:14:20,680
You look at what happened with,
I mean the history of Vault,

1604
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:24,720
right?
Vault was essentially brought

1605
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:28,480
about by bringing two companies
together, Doray and Silver Lake.

1606
01:14:28,480 --> 01:14:30,000
They were both small asset
companies.

1607
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:32,600
As soon as they did, they found
themselves above the threshold

1608
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:34,680
of being able to be bought by
institutions because they're in

1609
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:38,080
an index game that beautifully
doubled their price and they've

1610
01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:40,240
dealt through M&A from there as
well.

1611
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:42,320
So I think small assets can
work.

1612
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:44,760
It's more about the
commercialization process and

1613
01:14:44,760 --> 01:14:47,440
how you then go on from there.
So it's.

1614
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,080
One of those things, Maddie's,
you know, a reflection I have is

1615
01:14:51,080 --> 01:14:53,240
like, you know, nobody has a
natural rate it should be mined

1616
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:54,400
at.
Yeah.

1617
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:56,120
Yeah.
Well, as your guiding post,

1618
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:59,520
rather than the broker telling
you you need a, you need 100,000

1619
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:01,760
oz scenario for me to go and
raise the money for you.

1620
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:04,440
Yeah.
And you can't easily just get

1621
01:15:04,440 --> 01:15:08,240
20% above it, but you can very
easily get 20 plus percent below

1622
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:10,520
it by not doing it right.
Yeah.

1623
01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:13,400
And the problem is that so many
people in the market who might

1624
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:17,320
be tempted to buy the shares are
wowed by the output that you

1625
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:19,400
think you can generate from it
and the numbers that you can put

1626
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:21,760
on a piece of paper and don't
understand the difference

1627
01:15:21,760 --> 01:15:24,600
between that and what is
probably a more natural right.

1628
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:29,000
So look, I can't think of any
which are howlers and there

1629
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,200
might be a bit of personal
danger in it for me if even if I

1630
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:35,600
could think of a great example.
But maybe maybe I should say the

1631
01:15:35,600 --> 01:15:38,440
most attractive things that I
see in pre development gold

1632
01:15:38,440 --> 01:15:43,720
juniors at the moment are you've
got a reasonable size inventory

1633
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:46,280
to sponsor growth.
So you know, there's a, there's

1634
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:49,160
a prize, which if you make those
answers more valuable, if

1635
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:50,960
there's a lot of them, then
you've got a great leverage

1636
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:52,680
effect.
You've got a way into

1637
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:57,480
production, which might not be
the huge CapEx route as well as

1638
01:15:57,720 --> 01:16:00,600
you know, if you if you grow
your market value that that big

1639
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:02,200
CapEx route is available to you
as well.

1640
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:05,400
So it being in a situation where
permit pathways and stuff aren't

1641
01:16:05,400 --> 01:16:07,480
a blockage.
So if you're on some sort of a

1642
01:16:07,480 --> 01:16:10,840
mining lease, great start.
And if you can, if you can come

1643
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:14,080
to the market and say we've
found a way to be in business

1644
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:16,200
without having to raise that
full amount, that's a great

1645
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:19,240
surprise for the market.
But being in a part of the world

1646
01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:22,400
where some sort of MNA
speculation can be helpful.

1647
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:24,640
I'm not saying want to buy in
things that have that

1648
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:26,280
speculation.
It's just that if there is

1649
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:29,680
another mill that needs that
ore, then there's that tension

1650
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:33,080
which exists and no one can deny
it might not come true, but it

1651
01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:34,320
helps a lot more people look at
it.

1652
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:36,840
And the more people look at it,
probably more people are going

1653
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:38,480
to convert into buyers.
So it's good for the price.

1654
01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:41,800
I've got a few more companies
that maybe tick at least a

1655
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:46,360
couple of those boxes.
Vault Allejo say Ding Ding Ding.

1656
01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:47,720
Yeah.
And Remelius for her.

1657
01:16:48,360 --> 01:16:53,440
And Remelius.
So Bart and Gold they're they

1658
01:16:53,480 --> 01:16:56,320
put in a study last year and it
was like 1 to one kind of MPV to

1659
01:16:56,320 --> 01:16:58,040
CapEx ratio of a gold sword
since then.

1660
01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:01,440
So there's, you know, real kind
of talk, talk in the, in, in the

1661
01:17:01,440 --> 01:17:03,400
we.
Haven't had a talk for a while,

1662
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:05,560
have we?
No, bring it back, but I don't

1663
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:07,040
think might talk great again.
Exactly.

1664
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:10,640
I don't think the equities kind
of really propelled yet, but

1665
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:14,520
there is a big endowment there
SA, what do you think?

1666
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,000
Well, they have 2 interesting
deposits.

1667
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:21,840
One's not so big, but it's
reasonably close to their

1668
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:25,120
process facility.
So if and I always get them

1669
01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:27,600
mixed up because they are so
close in namesake.

1670
01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:30,640
And Takula.
Takula is within tracking

1671
01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:33,440
distance of the old Challenger
plant which Dominion built.

1672
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:36,680
So, you know, if you find any
answers there, which are, which

1673
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:39,640
are economic, then you've got a
way to commercialize them.

1674
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:42,280
So they might be off to be able
to generate cash flow.

1675
01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:44,320
That I've always found
interesting about Barton is that

1676
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:46,880
that's a part of their story
which you know, could come to

1677
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:48,520
fruition very quickly.
There's not a hell of a lot of

1678
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:53,640
permitting etcetera required.
And then Tan Killia, which is

1679
01:17:53,840 --> 01:17:57,520
the big one.
In fact, I, I did work

1680
01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:02,520
experience, I think as a year 11
student in 1995 in the offices

1681
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:04,720
of JB Weir, which was when my
father was working at the time.

1682
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:07,720
And the week I was only there
for a week, but the week I was

1683
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:12,600
there, a company called Helix
its first hole into Tonkilla and

1684
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:14,600
discovered it.
So I've always, I've always felt

1685
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:16,760
like I had a personal connection
to that deposit just because I

1686
01:18:16,760 --> 01:18:18,120
remember the day it was
discovered.

1687
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:20,680
And when I'm talking about it,
my girlfriend thought I was a

1688
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:25,920
Dick head because no one talked
about that at our school anyway.

1689
01:18:26,480 --> 01:18:27,920
So I mean, big amount of
answers.

1690
01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:29,560
It's sat in the ground for a
long time.

1691
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:33,360
And you know, it's one of those
assets which will really benefit

1692
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:35,480
from a gold price running
because all of a sudden the

1693
01:18:35,480 --> 01:18:38,560
CapEx that you need to to pre
strip is more available.

1694
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:41,720
But I, I think, you know,
combining those gold assets in

1695
01:18:41,720 --> 01:18:44,640
the same company has been very
wise because one could very well

1696
01:18:44,640 --> 01:18:47,280
lead to the other, maybe not in
terms of a process solution, but

1697
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:50,560
in terms of being able to stay
around long enough, generate

1698
01:18:50,560 --> 01:18:53,400
some cash flow that might help,
but it also builds a bigger rump

1699
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:56,200
of market cap in order to fund
yourself.

1700
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:59,120
So I think, you know, if that
was my strategy for them and I,

1701
01:18:59,480 --> 01:19:00,680
I don't think they're too far
off that.

1702
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:03,600
Although, you know, Alex is a
clever guy who thinks about

1703
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:05,480
economics in a different way
than most other people that I

1704
01:19:05,480 --> 01:19:08,560
know than the gold market.
So he seems to have avenues to

1705
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:11,280
connections which might be
useful for financing, which

1706
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:12,880
might might be different as
well.

1707
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:17,600
Yeah.
Golden Horse Minerals recent,

1708
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:21,080
recent IPO, but they're, they
were like a ATSX company, but

1709
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:22,640
they're in the, we're talking
about the Southern Cross kind of

1710
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:25,560
gold field.
Now there is a mill nearby.

1711
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:28,880
Do you think they've got a an
endowment that warrants

1712
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:30,480
interest?
Well, the thing I found

1713
01:19:30,480 --> 01:19:33,520
interesting about that is Nick
Anderson used to be the CFO of

1714
01:19:33,520 --> 01:19:38,280
an unlisted company which had
been involved in processing ore

1715
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:41,640
at that mill.
So struck me, yeah, struck me

1716
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:44,120
that he and there was a
collection of other companies

1717
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:47,600
sort of around that.
So you know, the that consortium

1718
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:50,000
wasn't particularly successful
in executing on its business

1719
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:52,920
plans, but Nick knew the area
quite well.

1720
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:56,320
So that struck me as interesting
that he was agglomerating these

1721
01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:59,240
assets.
They look as if they haven't

1722
01:19:59,240 --> 01:20:00,560
been particularly deeply
drilled.

1723
01:20:00,600 --> 01:20:03,600
And you know, when you list a
company you want your first few

1724
01:20:03,600 --> 01:20:05,960
holes to be a success.
So I'd say they've had a good

1725
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:07,360
think about where's the best
place to put them.

1726
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:09,000
But I think.
I think they've pulled out some

1727
01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:11,560
pretty reasonable thicknesses
and grades, so it's on my list

1728
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:15,560
of things to keep an eye on.
But at the moment, you know,

1729
01:20:15,560 --> 01:20:19,000
you're speculating on Oz
inventory accumulation.

1730
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:22,360
If if I'm going to buy 10 things
across the market, the

1731
01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:24,600
speculative ones where I don't
know what they're going to find,

1732
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:27,520
I need to see real cheap.
And the ones which I want to get

1733
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:30,360
into, which have answers, I want
to be buying those answers cheap

1734
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:31,720
as well.
And then he sort of sits in an

1735
01:20:31,720 --> 01:20:34,200
unusual place in between because
he's not dead cheap, he's just

1736
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:37,320
listed.
But at the end of the day, he

1737
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:39,720
needs to find them.
So I'm, I'm sort of watching

1738
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:42,720
that for, for how that evolves.
If the situation overtakes the

1739
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:44,960
value, then it might it might
slip on the list.

1740
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:47,480
I think of a company where the
the answers are certainly cheap

1741
01:20:47,480 --> 01:20:51,240
because the company trades with
a negative AV after you factor

1742
01:20:51,240 --> 01:20:56,920
in the cash, but the liquidity
is completely absent. 10 of my

1743
01:20:56,920 --> 01:21:00,600
gold Oh.
It's been so long since I've

1744
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:03,160
looked at that one.
Yeah, It seems to have been a

1745
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:05,320
part of the world where it's
just been exceptionally

1746
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:08,520
difficult for anyone to
commercialize anything that's,

1747
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:11,000
you know, of an ordinary scale
you need.

1748
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:13,560
I mean, Newmont has some
excellent assets in that part of

1749
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:15,880
the world so that it's a remote
place.

1750
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:17,920
I think that adds a lot of
expense and difficulty.

1751
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:22,720
Northern Star bought 10% more of
that JVI think last year for

1752
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:27,320
like 15,000,000 bucks and yet
you know, so 10 of my gold, I

1753
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:31,160
still have 50% of it, $30
million market cap and 30 odd

1754
01:21:31,160 --> 01:21:33,960
million cash, yeah.
Is Metals X still on the

1755
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:35,640
register for?
Them oh they own a little bit,

1756
01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:38,800
but most of it's with AIPAC who
own I think it's over half I.

1757
01:21:38,800 --> 01:21:45,240
Can remember there there was a
year when metals X and Northern

1758
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:48,120
Star were maybe it wasn't an all
out bidding war, but you know,

1759
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:51,400
one of them had made a proposal
and then metals X had made a

1760
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:54,680
proposal and northern star came
over the top and seemed to win

1761
01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:57,920
out.
And I think Peter Cook got asked

1762
01:21:57,920 --> 01:21:59,600
about it, the diggers and
dealers and I was sitting in the

1763
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:03,160
audience and he said something
like we'll just like sunshine be

1764
01:22:03,160 --> 01:22:06,840
the disinfectant on that one.
So I don't know what he meant

1765
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:09,360
because you know, it's sort of
all gone quiet.

1766
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:12,000
But I mean the thing I've always
found interesting about it was

1767
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:15,720
you've got two big companies at
that time and Peter Cook and and

1768
01:22:15,720 --> 01:22:17,680
Bill Beaman at the time.
You know, they they understand

1769
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:19,520
gold projects.
No mugs.

1770
01:22:20,920 --> 01:22:24,320
Northern Star has done so many
things in that time other than

1771
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:27,200
making Tanamar success.
I can't help thinking that

1772
01:22:27,280 --> 01:22:30,920
something has held that back.
And I mean, Northern Star bought

1773
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:34,800
bought into Platonic.
They subsequently off sold that

1774
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:37,160
and it's, it's taking
consolidation of that field for

1775
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:40,640
that to be a success.
Under Catalyst, you know,

1776
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:43,520
Northern Star grew from
Paulsen's, which no longer fit

1777
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:47,440
their, their portfolio profile.
So, you know, Tantami might not

1778
01:22:47,440 --> 01:22:50,280
necessarily get the the capital
allocation that it needs

1779
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:52,400
perhaps, but I can't help
thinking that there's been

1780
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:54,520
another reason.
I don't know what it is, but I

1781
01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:58,120
think it sounds difficult just
on that basis, and that's me.

1782
01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:00,720
There's a huge tendency in
financial services and brokers

1783
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:02,600
are the worst at this, that if
you ask them a question and they

1784
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:05,080
don't know the answer, the
answer will be no or the answer

1785
01:23:05,080 --> 01:23:06,720
will be it's shit, or it'll be I
haven't heard of it.

1786
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:09,560
I'm not bothered.
So I could be falling into that

1787
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:11,840
bias tendency of saying, look, I
don't know enough about it so

1788
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:14,320
I'm not going to, I'm not going
to go out and be too optimistic.

1789
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:16,240
So I could be being quite unfair
there.

1790
01:23:17,440 --> 01:23:21,240
Word I.
Word I I I did say I wouldn't

1791
01:23:21,240 --> 01:23:25,720
kiss and tell, didn't I?
So one thing I think that's

1792
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:28,800
interesting about Warridar is
they've drilled out a reasonable

1793
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:30,960
gold inventory now and they're
still going.

1794
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:34,280
It's a very long structure.
I mean, they've got about, I

1795
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:38,240
think it's about 2526 kilometres
of one structure.

1796
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:40,640
There's a couple of places there
where that structure doesn't

1797
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:42,640
look particularly well
understood and it's undercover.

1798
01:23:43,080 --> 01:23:45,280
They've got a couple of shallow
holes that say, hey, you know,

1799
01:23:45,400 --> 01:23:47,160
you, you change your
interpretation.

1800
01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:48,280
You might have missed the mother
load.

1801
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:50,200
I don't know.
One day we'll know.

1802
01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:53,160
But there's there's gold dotted
all up and down that.

1803
01:23:54,200 --> 01:23:57,280
So it hasn't been closed off.
The previous owners of it were

1804
01:23:57,280 --> 01:24:01,200
fascinated with oxide ore.
So there's been a lot of

1805
01:24:01,520 --> 01:24:04,240
unfinished geological business.
That's what attracts me is that

1806
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:05,520
it's wide open.
Now.

1807
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:09,840
What is also interesting is that
they've they've found

1808
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:13,560
significant antimony, which is
semi associated with the gold in

1809
01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:15,800
the fresh rock position.
And at the moment antimony is a

1810
01:24:15,800 --> 01:24:18,520
bit of a buzzword.
I don't know if that's a good

1811
01:24:18,520 --> 01:24:21,400
thing or a bad thing or just a
mutual factor for the asset, but

1812
01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:24,440
I suppose I look at Waradar as
being something that has a very

1813
01:24:24,440 --> 01:24:26,600
reasonable.
It's probably got the scale,

1814
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:29,800
it's definitely got starter
scale gold asset.

1815
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:32,200
And then you've got this
optionality from from the

1816
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:35,640
antimony that could give in a
moment and you just I don't

1817
01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:37,800
think anyone really understands
how well that could work.

1818
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:40,680
It might not work at all.
But you know, getting an option

1819
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:42,520
for nothing is always
interesting.

1820
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:45,600
But of those answers, they've
shown that some of the fresh

1821
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:47,680
rock answers are going to need
flotation.

1822
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:50,480
So they're to some extent
refractory.

1823
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:54,080
Now, if there was no rocks
developing, you and me, you'd

1824
01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:58,400
say, or that might be a bit
tough if you float some answers

1825
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:01,200
into a concentrate there, it
sounds like there could be a

1826
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:03,840
process pathway which exists in
WA where you could take those

1827
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:06,200
the extra step.
This golden Grove, which is just

1828
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:08,600
up the road as well, which you
know the base metals mining

1829
01:25:08,600 --> 01:25:10,880
there won't last forever, so
that there may be a flotation

1830
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:12,720
plant.
There are some free milling

1831
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:15,280
answers there as well, and they
will I think probably grow a

1832
01:25:15,280 --> 01:25:18,000
free milling inventory so.
Deflector as well.

1833
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:21,080
That's Yep, that's closer to
Geraldton.

1834
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:24,080
There's been times when that was
pronounced deceptor, but yeah,

1835
01:25:24,440 --> 01:25:28,160
it's got a, it's got a flotation
NCIL process facility there.

1836
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:30,880
And I mean you've got a question
that could come a time where

1837
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:33,920
that is subscale for Volt.
So, you know, perhaps there's a

1838
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:35,440
consolidation in the area that
makes sense.

1839
01:25:35,440 --> 01:25:38,200
But waving my arms around there,
all I'm saying is that on that

1840
01:25:38,200 --> 01:25:40,880
one I can see one or two
different pathways where in many

1841
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:43,320
companies you only have one and
they have 1-2, maybe 3.

1842
01:25:43,480 --> 01:25:46,360
So I think it's interesting, I
think very highly of Amanda.

1843
01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:49,120
She's a colleague of mine on
another board in an unlisted

1844
01:25:49,120 --> 01:25:50,880
company, which we didn't do any
Ding dinging on.

1845
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:52,080
They don't have an inventory at
all.

1846
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,080
That's just completely
speculative exploration.

1847
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:57,280
But Amanda is a a deep thinker,
a very hard worker.

1848
01:25:57,280 --> 01:26:00,640
So I was excited to go for a
look when the opportunity came

1849
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:02,720
up.
And Kairos.

1850
01:26:05,840 --> 01:26:09,280
In the Pilbara, yes, yes, well,
they're an interesting 1.

1851
01:26:09,360 --> 01:26:12,560
So I look at them the other day
they did the rounds of Melbourne

1852
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:16,520
and I kind of had them in my
head as being something which

1853
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:18,600
was kind of in the slightly,
it's a difficult basket.

1854
01:26:19,200 --> 01:26:24,080
What I realized is that they
have gold which is associated

1855
01:26:24,080 --> 01:26:27,440
with arsenopyrite and sulfides.
And when someone says that to a

1856
01:26:27,440 --> 01:26:29,960
geologist, you think or
refractory and that, I mean,

1857
01:26:29,960 --> 01:26:32,320
you're going to be careful with
the R word because it can

1858
01:26:32,320 --> 01:26:35,480
stretch from refractory means
that the gold is just, you know,

1859
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:37,640
encapsulated in something.
And you can break that very

1860
01:26:37,640 --> 01:26:40,880
simply just by cracking it.
You can break it by oxidizing it

1861
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:43,200
in various ways.
You can do that in this case,

1862
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:47,120
the test work that that's been
done in previous years, if they

1863
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:50,120
grind it and it's not even super
fine, I mean, it's a fineish

1864
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:52,800
grind, but it's not ends of the
earth and you're grinding,

1865
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:54,920
you're fine grinding sulfides
rather than the whole rock.

1866
01:26:55,160 --> 01:27:00,360
So that that that shows a very
reasonable pure cyanide recovery

1867
01:27:00,440 --> 01:27:02,720
off the back of that.
So it made me think this is

1868
01:27:02,720 --> 01:27:04,600
worth looking at.
The other thing which was

1869
01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:08,120
interesting about them is that
they sold some tenure to Pilbara

1870
01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:11,000
for 20 million bucks.
I think 10 of that has been

1871
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:13,040
paid.
So they're well funded for now.

1872
01:27:13,040 --> 01:27:17,520
They've got about 22,000,000
bucks of liquidity, 10 still to

1873
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:19,080
be delivered, but there's no
reason to think it won't.

1874
01:27:19,080 --> 01:27:22,240
So you know, if you if you have
a reasonable size gold inventory

1875
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:24,400
and they swap some tenements.
So it looks like they can follow

1876
01:27:24,400 --> 01:27:27,440
their trend onto pilgrade ground
and who knows, that might grow

1877
01:27:27,440 --> 01:27:29,320
to scale and they look like
they're funded to do it.

1878
01:27:29,320 --> 01:27:31,960
So it's an interesting one.
It's on my list to look at, but

1879
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:34,280
I haven't come to a landing on
it yet.

1880
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:37,560
And I don't customarily sort of
say, hey, I'm looking at this

1881
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:38,560
one.
I'm really excited.

1882
01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:41,640
But I look at a lot of things
and you know, the excitement can

1883
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:42,880
wear off pretty quickly on a
few.

1884
01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:46,080
But those were the points which
really grabbed my attention with

1885
01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:48,120
them and I thought it was well
worth spending a bit more time

1886
01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:50,040
and.
How are you?

1887
01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:52,080
What's going to be your best
performance stock this year,

1888
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:54,120
Hadley?
And we're going to hold it

1889
01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:55,280
against you at the end of the
year.

1890
01:27:55,720 --> 01:28:00,400
Well, last year it was Saturn
and there's a there's a fund

1891
01:28:00,400 --> 01:28:04,200
manager in Melbourne who he's a
journalist.

1892
01:28:04,280 --> 01:28:06,880
I don't know if he doesn't sound
like the kind of person I'd go

1893
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:10,040
to Christmas parties with, but
they have a famous Christmas

1894
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:12,360
party and they have it after
Christmas so that they make sure

1895
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:14,160
that everybody goes.
Maybe that's just his character.

1896
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:17,120
He's famous, he's giving people
cars and all this stuff, like

1897
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:19,960
for someone gives him a tip and
if it goes really well for him,

1898
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:21,920
that's how he rewards them at
his Christmas party.

1899
01:28:22,240 --> 01:28:25,880
So I thought, well, when we have
our AGM, we invited Saturn

1900
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:28,880
Bright Star and Platonic, which
is an unlisted company, to

1901
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:31,200
present at our AGM just to talk
to our shareholders and say what

1902
01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:32,840
they're all about.
And then we had a dinner

1903
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:36,040
afterwards for the those
speakers and the board and a few

1904
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:39,400
of the largest shareholders.
So I was thinking I just need

1905
01:28:39,400 --> 01:28:41,400
some sort of silly shit to talk
about over dinner.

1906
01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:45,480
And we had these these medals
which were cast many years ago

1907
01:28:45,480 --> 01:28:47,080
from some silver which we'd come
across.

1908
01:28:47,440 --> 01:28:49,560
And they've got a, they've got a
lion image on it.

1909
01:28:49,560 --> 01:28:52,000
So I was giving them each one as
a token to say thank you.

1910
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:54,760
But I wanted to stir one of the
MD's up.

1911
01:28:55,120 --> 01:29:00,720
So I am Ian Bambra from Saturn.
Actually he and I have quite an

1912
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:03,560
interesting personal story that
has crisscrossed.

1913
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:05,760
Ian and I were born in the same
hospital in the north of

1914
01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:07,520
England.
I don't, I think there's only

1915
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:09,080
three geologists have ever come
out of that.

1916
01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:13,000
That's my dad, me and him.
And he also likes Land Rovers.

1917
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:16,280
I like Land Rovers.
So I made-up this crap and I, I

1918
01:29:16,280 --> 01:29:18,920
don't know, I probably went on
for about 5 minutes and I said

1919
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:22,560
all this other fund manager who
buys people cars.

1920
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:25,880
So for the best return in our
portfolio this year, I've bought

1921
01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:28,560
them a car and, and it's his
favorite sort of car.

1922
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:32,480
And I had this little Hot Wheels
Matchbox Land Rover which I gave

1923
01:29:32,480 --> 01:29:35,560
him.
And we we, Ian and I swaps swap

1924
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:39,800
photos where I put one of my toy
Matchbox Land Rovers on a rock

1925
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:42,000
and take a picture to show him
where I've been.

1926
01:29:43,040 --> 01:29:46,560
So, so Ian won a Land Rover that
was that was our best performing

1927
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:49,440
stock last year.
I hope that it's sat in this

1928
01:29:49,440 --> 01:29:51,120
year.
And I couldn't tell you what

1929
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:52,600
it's performance has been since
that point.

1930
01:29:53,360 --> 01:29:55,240
I think it's done quite well in
this gold market.

1931
01:29:55,240 --> 01:29:57,880
But satin I think has an awfully
long way to run on its value.

1932
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:01,760
But it's going to struggle to
compete against Antipa and

1933
01:30:01,760 --> 01:30:05,480
Medallion in terms of return to
date in a very short period of

1934
01:30:05,480 --> 01:30:07,320
time.
And I mean, short returns can,

1935
01:30:07,680 --> 01:30:10,280
you know, you can't extrapolate
that trend too far, but both of

1936
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:11,400
those look like they could have
stuck.

1937
01:30:11,400 --> 01:30:14,720
So who knows, maybe Antipa won't
exist by the time we have our

1938
01:30:14,720 --> 01:30:18,320
AGM in 2025 and Medallion, who
knows.

1939
01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:20,320
I mean, we were speculating
about M&A for both of those.

1940
01:30:20,320 --> 01:30:22,960
So I'd love to give them a Hot
Wheels of their choice.

1941
01:30:24,760 --> 01:30:27,280
And yeah, we'll be definitely be
inviting a few stories to come

1942
01:30:27,280 --> 01:30:30,760
and talk at our AGM as well,
just to spice it up and provide

1943
01:30:30,760 --> 01:30:32,000
a different event for our
shareholders.

1944
01:30:32,440 --> 01:30:35,360
I mean, congratulations on, you
know, really timing the the

1945
01:30:35,400 --> 01:30:37,720
thematic really well.
I shouldn't be surprised you did

1946
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:40,320
invent the mining clock.
So I can't let you go without

1947
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:42,760
asking you where we are on the
the clock, right?

1948
01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:47,280
Now I would I have to give full
kudos for the creative concept

1949
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:51,040
of the line clock to my father
Robin, who used it as an an

1950
01:30:51,080 --> 01:30:53,000
analogy when he was working at
JB Weir.

1951
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:55,680
So it probably dates back to pre
9.

1952
01:30:56,440 --> 01:30:59,640
Let's say pre 97, it'd be maybe
mid 90s.

1953
01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:03,840
And I think he had observed that
in the period of time there,

1954
01:31:03,840 --> 01:31:07,040
they'd done, you know, they'd
all got involved at, at a part

1955
01:31:07,040 --> 01:31:09,240
time in the market without doing
small raisings that are hard

1956
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:10,480
work.
And then all of a sudden the

1957
01:31:10,480 --> 01:31:12,800
metals prices came along and
they're doing big raisings.

1958
01:31:13,480 --> 01:31:17,240
And then they formed line many
of that management team so that

1959
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:20,000
that concept is carried.
And from that time, I would say

1960
01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:22,520
that was probably fairly
subjectively set at that point.

1961
01:31:22,960 --> 01:31:26,000
Now we monitor it and and the
underlying theory is that

1962
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:28,320
liquidity which is money coming
into the market or going away is

1963
01:31:28,320 --> 01:31:31,200
what sets the time.
The last time we published it,

1964
01:31:31,360 --> 01:31:33,800
it was 4:00.
Now the boom starts at six.

1965
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:38,840
And I think that we might look
back at now and say we were at

1966
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:41,440
six.
What we're going to do in our

1967
01:31:41,440 --> 01:31:45,240
next quarterly, which will be
published in May will be to set

1968
01:31:45,240 --> 01:31:48,120
the clock at 5:00.
And I think the reasoning around

1969
01:31:48,120 --> 01:31:50,080
that is liquidity has definitely
increased.

1970
01:31:50,080 --> 01:31:53,200
But the signal which we're
getting to 6 or going through 6

1971
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:55,640
is that we're starting to see
things like IPOs starting to

1972
01:31:55,640 --> 01:31:57,640
happen.
And as much as things like

1973
01:31:57,640 --> 01:32:01,000
greatly and gold are coming to
Australia, shit big IPO, but

1974
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:04,360
that you know, that's a one off
very unusual story.

1975
01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:07,000
And the reason they want to come
here is to migrate their

1976
01:32:07,000 --> 01:32:09,200
listing.
So I think we need to see

1977
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:12,000
exploration IP OS coming to the
market and I can see them

1978
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:13,640
developing.
I want to see that stick.

1979
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:16,840
So I think, you know, we might
look back at now and say boom's

1980
01:32:16,840 --> 01:32:19,640
on good chance of that.
And if we don't look back at

1981
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:22,120
now, then it could be some other
time in 2025.

1982
01:32:22,120 --> 01:32:25,040
But I think that's where we are,
which is a great time to be

1983
01:32:25,040 --> 01:32:27,920
investing.
If you invest in pre development

1984
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:29,640
things, you need to be able to
follow your money.

1985
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:32,680
So if you miss those
opportunities when they have a

1986
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:36,240
distressed raising, it affects
your investing experience

1987
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:39,000
incredibly.
So you know back to me not being

1988
01:32:39,000 --> 01:32:41,880
fully invested that's we will be
investing right through to 9

1989
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:43,640
until we start trying to
harvest.

1990
01:32:43,920 --> 01:32:47,720
Two, it's probably dependent on
lithium because there's too many

1991
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:52,040
lithium shells from the 2021
IPOs that are getting used for

1992
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:53,840
gold.
So unless lithium comes back,

1993
01:32:53,840 --> 01:32:55,640
there's too many shells for IPOs
to happen.

1994
01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:58,880
Actor ammo, Yeah.
I noticed that Core came out

1995
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:02,160
with some announcements recently
of a massive gold trend in the

1996
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:04,160
NT site.
You don't say you had a big

1997
01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:06,360
lithium project and now on the
exact same ground you got a big

1998
01:33:06,360 --> 01:33:07,920
gold project you said nothing
about before.

1999
01:33:07,960 --> 01:33:08,760
Oh.
They got both.

2000
01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:11,280
Bloody great, they.
Bought the crusher from Minrez.

2001
01:33:12,320 --> 01:33:15,120
90 million bucks.
Yeah, pretty interesting Got.

2002
01:33:15,880 --> 01:33:17,960
To be careful what you pay
sometimes, don't you?

2003
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:21,200
So that's.
Not a bad break for you, it's

2004
01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:24,960
all.
Right, very good headers.

2005
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:27,440
Thanks very much mate.
Thank you very much for having

2006
01:33:27,440 --> 01:33:28,000
me.
Thank you for the.

2007
01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:30,440
For you, because if you're going
up, I'm going up.

2008
01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:33,240
We'll kick up this.
Crap my stocks.

2009
01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:37,040
They're way too specular.
Is that why you never Ding,

2010
01:33:37,040 --> 01:33:39,680
Ding, Ding, Yeah.
You'll be like oh you're a Dick

2011
01:33:39,720 --> 01:33:41,880
head.
Jeez, brother.

2012
01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:43,800
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me, guys.

2013
01:33:43,800 --> 01:33:45,560
It's been fantastic.
Right.

2014
01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:47,520
Oh, there you go Jay.
So you missed that bloody

2015
01:33:47,520 --> 01:33:48,880
episode.
That was right up your.

2016
01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:51,760
Alley, Oh I.
Know I now it's I'm sort of

2017
01:33:51,760 --> 01:33:54,440
doing a bit of a you I haven't
quite I haven't watched it yet

2018
01:33:54,440 --> 01:33:55,760
but I.
Can't.

2019
01:33:55,800 --> 01:33:58,360
Wait to it was I'm sure it was
amazing.

2020
01:33:58,360 --> 01:34:00,440
So they're probably a bit small
cappy for you.

2021
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:03,000
Actually small.
Cappy, I love it.

2022
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:06,920
Right, let's RIP through bloody
everything on offer at the

2023
01:34:06,920 --> 01:34:10,960
moment.
We're JRX Conference Brisbane

2024
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:15,280
May 2020 Second, get your bloody
tickets exclusive discount by us

2025
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:20,440
and I'm going now.
I'm going, I'm going, I'm going

2026
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:23,840
full conference mode this year
and that's after Oz IMEM

2027
01:34:23,840 --> 01:34:28,280
underground operators next week.
And so you can still get tickets

2028
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:31,480
for that with our exclusive card
in our thanks to all the

2029
01:34:31,480 --> 01:34:34,480
partners Mineral Mining
Services, Grounded TAB, Ground

2030
01:34:34,480 --> 01:34:39,240
Sports, TRA Insurance, WA, Water
Balls, Quattro, KCA Sort

2031
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:43,600
Services, Black Diamond, Cross,
Boundary Energy and K.

2032
01:34:43,600 --> 01:34:45,840
Drill.
ODRO.

2033
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:48,640
Money.
Information contained in this

2034
01:34:48,640 --> 01:34:51,400
episode of Money of Mine is of
general nature only and does not

2035
01:34:51,400 --> 01:34:54,040
take into account the
objectives, financial situation

2036
01:34:54,080 --> 01:34:56,080
or needs of any particular
person.

2037
01:34:56,400 --> 01:34:59,440
Before making any investment
decision, you should consult

2038
01:34:59,440 --> 01:35:02,480
with your financial advisor and
consider how appropriate the

2039
01:35:02,480 --> 01:35:06,200
advice is to your objectives,
financial situation and needs.