Turning a deposit into a mine (Entech interview)

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Love it right Eye money miners,
you got questions about bloody

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studies?
We are delivering an absolute

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spectacular.
You might notice on the if you

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see a good ASX announcement with
the word Entech mining

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consultant in it.
We are delivering the people

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that drive those announcements,
the founder himself, Shane

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Mcclay and the resident
principal.

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I won't say rock liquor, we'll
say geologist.

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We'll keep it tidy.
Jill Urban, thank you very much

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for walking 100 metres to come
and see us for a bit of a

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consultant.
Spectacular maca.

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Whoever said consultants were
boring, you've always said that.

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Exciting tonight.
It should be boring.

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Hey, we've tried to make this
conversation happen, I reckon

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for the best part of a year now.
I think we were bumped back a

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couple of.
Times big ticket people, mate,

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big ticket people.
They take.

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They take a bit of work
sometimes, but it's going to be

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worth it.
Changes saw how how big the flow

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and effect for Nathan's story
was and was like I want some of

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that money in mine effect you.
Don't need to get on board,

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you're already on the long town
board rocks guard.

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Look at him, just catapulted.
He's actually can't believe I'm

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so interested in metallurgy.
He's so flattered.

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No, that's good.
Thanks for having us, guys.

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So yeah, here with Jill from
Entek and yeah, we've been

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working together for nearly a
decade and lovely to be here to

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tell our story.
Well, wait, I guess what's what

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initially sparked the discussion
was like talking about studies

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and I think I was actually
talking to you about between

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scoping PFSDFS bankable lot.
What's the actual differences in

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and from like looking behind the
hood from the consultant side of

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actually what goes into the
planning of it here?

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What is different between the
different levels of how you

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actually get all this together
and like what is a good study, a

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bad study and from your
obviously got the mining

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engineering expertise Maka, but
you're probably good expert at

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everything now after having do
it all.

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And then from the mineral
resource side of things, why

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don't we tie it all in together
so.

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That's the way of saying we
realised how much we didn't know

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and we need you guys to come on
and explain what we don't know.

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So why don't we start with a
good study and a bad study at

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the set?
Let's start the scoping study

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level and then maybe we can sort
of work through PFS, DFS, these

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sorts of.
Things well, I'll explain the

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difference between the levels of
study.

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So really once you go from
scoping to pre feasibility to

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feasibility study, BFS and DFS,
they don't really mean anything

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other than it's a feasibility
study.

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So they're kind of at the same
level.

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I think Jorg's trying to get rid
of those terms bankable and and

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definitive.
So it's just feasibility study,

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but really it's the quality of
the inputs to the study.

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So you start with the scoping
study, which is very high level,

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well, not very high level, but a
high level study that really

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wants to answer the question is
the project feasible?

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And there will need to be lots
of assumptions.

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And and from there you go to a
fee, a pre feasibility study and

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that's where you look at the
options analysis and then

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through to the feasibility study
and that's the one you take

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through the financial decision.
So if the quality, the inputs

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are different as you go along
and obviously the levels of

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accuracy reduce as you get
towards the financial decision

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making, the feasibility study.
And then the number we see

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kicked around 35% ish for the
scoping study.

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Is that sort of?
Right.

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Yeah, Yep, 30 to 50 in that
range depending on who you ask.

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Yep.
The PFS always comes out and the

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CapEx is about twice as big and
then yeah, DFS is twice as big

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again.
Yeah, yeah, there's a.

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It's a big a lot of opposite.
Studies.

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So when you talk like, let's use
some, oh, you could probably use

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as a speaker to store, you could
probably use rocks golden as

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example.
The the you and me when you're

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talking about you've got
potentially using a a lot of

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different scenarios when you're
talking like, OK, are we going

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to mine it and create a
concentrate to then sell?

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Or are we going to put a
processing plan in with high,

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high pressure grinding and not
go the concentrate route?

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When you when you're evaluating
those sort of many broad range

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of options of how to like
process something, is that done

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in a scoping study level and
then to evaluate all the

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different options and then
they're really refined in the

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PFS when you nail down one idea
when do those decisions?

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Most of the works done in the
PFS, so you may look at a couple

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of options and there'll be some
broad assumptions.

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But the PFS is when a lot of
work is done and, and quite

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often the PFS will take longer
than a feasibility study because

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you've got to look at all the
options and that's where you

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have to do it at, at a certain
level of accuracy.

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Yeah.
So, OK, So what what's the

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what's the difference between
you probably said it before, if

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you that situation scoping to
pay FS and is there stages when

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you just do a pay FS straight up
and not do a Skyping study?

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Well, this one of my biggest bug
bears actually.

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And you know the question what?
What is a bad study?

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And really you've got to follow
the, you know, there's 3 levels

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of study for a reason.
And I think that process is

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really, really important.
And quite often we'll have

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clients come to us and say,
yeah, we want to do a scoping

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and then we're just going to do
the feasibility study.

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And yeah, it might work.
But quite often you'll, you'll

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leave stuff on the table and you
might actually get to the end of

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your feasibility study and go,
Oh my God, this doesn't work.

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So yeah, those three steps are
really important.

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And so when you say we just want
to go straight to a feasibility,

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so we just want to go scoping to
DFS, is that right?

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Yeah.
Yep, Yep.

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And people will quite often do
that.

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And simple projects, you'll get
away with it where there's not a

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lot of options, You know, small
gold pit in the gold fields, you

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know, digging up some oxide
material, you know, really it's

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just about tidying it all up.
But you know, something like

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rocks, gold, not that I know
much about it, but yeah, you'll

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need to obviously put the work
in.

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There's also like a level of
information gathering as well

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through each step as well.
So you know from a drilling

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point of view, the amount of
information you have at a

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scoping study is not would you
be expecting a DFS?

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So there's like several rounds
of drilling and extra

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information need to happen
through the process as well.

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So even if someone wants to make
it quicker, there's, you know,

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probably a good few resourcing
fields they gotta do.

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Yeah.
So and probably talking about

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the drilling specifically in the
mineral resource estimate, wait

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before you do your first study,
you're scoping what's probably

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the least amount of confidence
that you need in the mineral

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resource when you can commence
that cause what you I guess

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alluded to there is like that
the resource needs to be

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upgraded as the study.
Usually progress, yeah, usually

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it kind of goes like that, but
you, I mean, you need some

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drilling in it.
You wouldn't be able to do it on

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an expression target
necessarily.

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It'd be, you know, inferred
level.

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So you could sort of
conceptually get an idea of of

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what's happening, but you need
to move to indicator quite

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quickly through any anything
moving from PFS onwards.

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Yeah, 'cause we saw one recently
where the they put out a study

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with no NPV and no IRR because
of the high, high percentage of

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inferred material in it.
And it's sort of like everyone's

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like, well, why the hell are you
putting this study out?

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And we don't even have a, a
number to see if it makes money

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or not.
But they obviously wanted to get

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the study out for, you know,
whether it was capital reasons

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or share price reasons or
whatever.

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But is, is that a bit of a grey
area to actually progress to a

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study?
But it's like, well, you haven't

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got enough geological
information actually to put a

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the, the, the two numbers behind
it that people want to see.

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I guess.
What's your view on it?

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Sure answer is yes, it still is.
Despite everything you have to

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guide you, it still is up for
debate in terms of what people

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would like to do or what they do
do.

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Yeah.
But generally speaking, yeah,

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you're going to need, you know,
for what we would do.

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We would need a sentiment of
drilling to to be able to wrap

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a, you know, a joke resource
around it.

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And I assume that number of
infer, that inferred percentage

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number is very dependent on the
ore body style.

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If you can, like you could have
a high inferred number.

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But if it's something like a
continuous, what you deem a

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continuous ore body, you could
be more confident.

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But if there's shit going on
everywhere, yeah, yeah, you'd

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need a higher confidence.
Yeah, it's a little bit

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confidence, geological
confidence before the, you know,

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and the guys once it goes
through the engineering, heaps

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of other studies as well.
But there is deposits that sort

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of lend themselves to having a
more, you know, better

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continuity and others that are
less commodities.

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Some commodities are just
generally a little bit more

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simpler from a geological point
of view and deposits can be.

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So, yeah.
And that's kind of, I guess

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where some of the grey area
comes in.

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What are you?
What are some examples of that

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something?
What's a simple a simple 1?

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You could be pretty confident on
inferred and the other end of

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the spectrum.
It's like you need to drill the

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living shit out of this to
really get an understanding.

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Look, I'll just go by
commodities.

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Gold will always need more
drilling generally than say some

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base metals, but it is hard to
just put them into a couple of

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different boxes.
So yeah, look, you can get

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really complicated VMSS and
simpler gold, but generally

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speaking, gold having nugget
does need a little bit more

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drilling than some other
commodities.

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And like poor like what about
like a porphyry system for gold?

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Like a big A a bulky one?
Would that need less confidence

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or there is a nuggety factor
within the porphyry that can?

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Yeah, really.
Influence it.

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Yeah.
So if you're giving bulk,

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obviously the grade is usually a
bit lower.

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So, you know, in terms of having
to get in the reminder and find

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it in the right spot, there's a
less risk around selectivity and

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things like that.
So yeah, look, you know,

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generally speaking, the simpler
it is, you could get away a bit

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less drilling, but that's that's
not a rule that's gonna hold

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true everywhere.
So that's giving it a nice vague

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answer.
Yeah, no, no, but it's like

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that's geology way.
That's why 'cause I try to

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simplify things.
But if if it was that simple,

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you wouldn't need to exist.
So you got to make sure you make

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it sound as complicated as
possible so everyone comes to

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you for the studies.
Jill, you, you mentioned

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exploration targets.
What do you think of them?

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In general.
In general, yeah.

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I think there's a place for
them.

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I think perhaps the use of them
is is still people aren't always

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100% sure when they should or
they shouldn't.

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But there I think there is a
place, particularly if you're in

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the junior end, where you have
enough information to be able to

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give some sort of conceptual
idea of what's out there.

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But I think it's a big sort of
elastic band in terms of what

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everybody does.
When did they come in?

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When did exploration targets
become a thing?

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That's just a good point.
Like it's probably something, I

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mean, prior to 2018, nineteen, I
wouldn't have done 1.

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So I'm not actually sure if
there's actually a moment

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whether it was in.
Yeah, maybe it was in 2012.

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It's kind of like someone does
one and then you I say it's all

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good to do it.
So they could do it.

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Well, this.
Is the thing right with the ASX,

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there is a lot of like precedent
stuff.

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So obviously, you know, joke
will tell you something.

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But, and we'll have, I'll have
conversations with some people

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00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,240
where they, you know, they'll
say, can we do this?

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00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,440
And I, you know, say here's
here's joke, this is what you

228
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,400
should do.
And then they'll pull out like 3

229
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,240
precedents that have already
gone out public that don't

230
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,160
really talk to that.
And that's not necessarily means

231
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,480
you should set the bar like
that, but it does make it hard

232
00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,960
to, you know, sort of support
and and push forward what you

233
00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,480
need to happen when you're
putting out a jerk when

234
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,760
something's already gone out.
That's, you know, that's sort of

235
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,520
pull the rubber band hugely more
than you would no.

236
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,160
As the as the study gurus, do
you use, do you use deal with

237
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,720
the ISX at all or that's all on
the companies that engage you?

238
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,720
The companies as I understand
it, have like a representative,

239
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,120
so you know, chain jump in if
you want as well, but they

240
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:50,320
usually have an ASICS
representative.

241
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,600
So if we've got any questions or
this clarifications required,

242
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,040
they'll go back to their
representative.

243
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,400
That's my understanding.
It's hard for us to get direct

244
00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:58,520
access.
Would that be?

245
00:12:58,520 --> 00:12:59,480
Fair.
Yeah, that's right.

246
00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:01,680
Yeah.
This this whole kind of process

247
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:05,160
from, you know, the, the, the
resource infill all the way

248
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,800
through like all the study
process, it's just it's it's de

249
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,360
risking, right.
That's what's happening in this

250
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,160
process.
You're you're building your

251
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,600
confidence in the ore body and
its capability of being a an

252
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,480
economic thing to mine.
And the highest degree of

253
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,680
confidence of that is that at
the production of the, you know,

254
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,960
when the DFS is finalised and
FID is announced, right?

255
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,480
But are they kind of like with
your amalgamated history of

256
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,720
seeing it go wrong?
Are they sometimes a bunch of

257
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,960
clues along the way of when like
crappy work might have been done

258
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,040
that didn't actually have the
highest degrees of confidence?

259
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,520
That's a good question.
I think where where you've seen

260
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,720
projects go wrong, it's easy in
hindsight, but quite often

261
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,280
there'll be one thing that goes
wrong.

262
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,480
You know, it might be the
resource and unfortunately, if

263
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,120
it is, if the resource does
underperform everything from

264
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,240
that point on, the mining, you
know, the economics, the

265
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,360
productivities, everything, the
cut off grade, all based on that

266
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,160
resource.
And if that resource is a bit

267
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,160
out ten, 2030% out, that could
blow the project up very

268
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,640
quickly.
So for me, the resource is

269
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,680
pretty much, you know, that's
what you're starting with,

270
00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:12,280
that's the ingredients of your
project.

271
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,440
So that needs to be right and
skimping on a resource or not

272
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:21,480
doing, you know, peer review and
and that sort of thing is, is

273
00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,680
fraught with danger.
So, yeah.

274
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:28,640
And then obviously as you go
along, all those inputs become

275
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,200
important at the right time.
And then, you know, we've seen

276
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,800
projects that have, you know,
the resource wrong mining

277
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:40,720
method, issues with paste, you
know, issues with community, you

278
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:42,320
know, they can really blow a
project up.

279
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,160
So there's so many inputs and
all of them require that level

280
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,760
of diligence to get your final
product.

281
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,960
And you know, you can't, you
can't have one thing fail, you

282
00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,680
know, or you know, obviously,
because that can just buy a

283
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,840
project up.
So yeah, it's important to get

284
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,920
everything right.
And what about the the arsenal

285
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,120
that you're given?
When do they do they ever put

286
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:07,800
constraints?
I suppose when you're talking

287
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,240
about infrastructure and the
design and everything, because

288
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,040
you could judge up a mine and
make it the as easiest as

289
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,600
possible with the best
infrastructure in place to make

290
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,240
it very efficient.
But when you're as the person,

291
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,280
as the entity that's doing the
study and given the options,

292
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,560
you've got constraints on the
amount of capital that you can

293
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:30,400
spend, which affects the optimal
mind design and everything.

294
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,920
Is that is the onus on you then
to?

295
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,840
Is there a lot more pressure to
deliver an optimum result

296
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,680
really?
You know, any engineer worth

297
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,880
their weight will understand
what an engineer's job is, and

298
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,320
it's to get the most out of the
least resources.

299
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,200
So you need to go in with a
mindset of fit for purpose.

300
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,480
And yeah, you do need to look
at, you know, you got to look at

301
00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,800
a project the last five years a
bit differently, the one that's

302
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,480
going to last 25 years, you
know, when it comes to the

303
00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,000
quality of the buildings, you
know, and you know, you know, do

304
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,440
you need to future proof the
ventilation fan system or will

305
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,800
that be just fine?
And later on down the track, if

306
00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:09,880
the mine gets bigger, we'll put
a bit better one on.

307
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:16,120
So I think, you know, growing up
in WA and, and like most of our

308
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,920
people here, they're pretty
tough minds to make dollars out

309
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,240
of.
So we've, we've kind of got ADNA

310
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,840
and especially in Australia and
WA of really doing things pretty

311
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,680
tight.
So there's not too many gold

312
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,520
plated mines that you see over
here.

313
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,960
You go to different parts of the
world, you'll see more gold

314
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,400
plated mines than you see here.
So yeah, I don't think there's

315
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,120
AI, don't think there's a lot of
people out there gold plating

316
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,040
mines.
I think people do the, you know,

317
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,080
the Holden Commodore rather than
the Ferrari type mentality when

318
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,120
it comes to building a mine.
Couple Are you Falcons out

319
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,280
there?
Yeah, well, nothing wrong with

320
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,160
an IU.
Still works.

321
00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:00,080
So when we think of the scoping
study stage and a company puts

322
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,119
up two potential scenarios,
there's a few examples. 11 is

323
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:05,960
chalice, that's sort of a recent
one that comes to mind.

324
00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,839
Off the top of my head.
It was a sort of 15 and a 30

325
00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:13,000
million tonne per annum example.
But more generally, are they

326
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,200
trying to see what the market
kind of thinks of the two

327
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,599
scenarios or why isn't this
decision sort of made in the

328
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:24,839
process by the management team
and just one of them put forward

329
00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:27,280
to the market?
Yeah, well, we didn't get that

330
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,960
job so can't talk for
experience.

331
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,960
What would you But no look, it's
that is a really complicated

332
00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,280
project compared to most mines.
Yeah, you know, metallurgically

333
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,000
there's lots, lots of things
going on and therefore there's

334
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,760
lots of options.
So, you know, and poor bug is

335
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,880
the commodity price would have,
you know, I think it was

336
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,640
Palladium half during their
study time.

337
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:54,400
Like how do you run a study
properly when you've got things

338
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,240
moving?
You've got so many dials and

339
00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:01,880
knobs, it's pretty tough.
So I do sympathise with where

340
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,520
their, you know, their journey.
And yeah, but I think to go back

341
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,560
to your original question, the
study phase being scoping, you

342
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,760
would be looking at all
different things at that point

343
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,480
in time.
But unfortunately, when the more

344
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,800
work you do, sometimes the more
options you find and you know,

345
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,720
you can study these things for
the next decade.

346
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,160
But I mean, it's amazing
orebody.

347
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,360
I think there will be a project
there one day and they're

348
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:30,600
working through it now.
So yeah, it's just a, it's just

349
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,960
a complicated mind, you know,
compared to compared to most.

350
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,040
I've got another one just just
quickly the appropriate amount

351
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,840
to to sort of spend on these
different phases of projects.

352
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,720
I've had this number in my head
for ages that the right amount

353
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,520
to spend on a DFS is.
Might be quoting it wrong here.

354
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,080
Is 3% of the MPV just a random
rule of thumb?

355
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,960
Does that stack up at all or is
that completely wrong?

356
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,440
Have you heard that?
One Well, I think people need to

357
00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,680
spend more on this stuff.
Goes with that I gave you the

358
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,120
layout I need to.
Hold an extra, make a shit light

359
00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,360
out of there.
Yeah.

360
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,800
Now look, I don't know what that
number is.

361
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,320
You know, we, we are only a part
of the study.

362
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,600
You know, there's obviously a
part of a study that'll include

363
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,920
things like geotechnical
drilling, include pace field

364
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,200
test work, you know, lots and
lots of different things that we

365
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,760
don't directly do.
So yeah, I'm not sure what that

366
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,440
number is, but I do know that
there are lots of cost and time

367
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,240
pressures during study phases
that we're always faced with.

368
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:40,920
And I think that is something
that people need to be more

369
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,040
realistic about when it comes to
study phases and spend money at

370
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,680
that point in time because,
yeah, like I said before, you

371
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,680
know, you can make some
assumptions early on that can

372
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,920
cost you a lot down the at the
end of the day, you might find

373
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:02,800
you've made some capital
decisions that are not quite

374
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,360
right because didn't look hard
enough into it at the early

375
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:08,240
stages.
So.

376
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,040
Yeah, I can't stress how
important it is to do the study

377
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:14,960
system properly.
You know, go through your

378
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,640
scoping and spend a lot of time
on your pre feasibility and then

379
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,560
finalise it with your
feasibility station.

380
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:26,040
I should.
Cut you off.

381
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:31,040
Should we be sceptical of like
the, the, the, the teams that

382
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,720
decide to manage their own kind
of study work streams where they

383
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,920
don't necessarily rely on, I've
got this kind of hypothesis that

384
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,320
a lot of times mines get built,
they're kind of marginal and the

385
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,400
numbers that sort of come to the
market, especially if they

386
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,480
manage their own studies, they
might be kind of squeezing

387
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,960
things a little bit or, or
taking a very optimistic view on

388
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,080
some of the capital or operating
cost components.

389
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,280
And that's just to sort of paint
a rosy enough picture for the

390
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,720
thing to actually get finance in
the 1st place, and then things

391
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,040
go kind of tits up.
Yeah, I think you need to be

392
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,360
sceptical, but there are some
owner teams that are doing

393
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:07,880
really good work.
Yeah, you know, so I think, I

394
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,080
think you kind of need, they
need to prove that it's a

395
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,440
reasonable study and sometimes
that's a some peer review or

396
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,400
they'll farm out parts of that
study.

397
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:24,440
But yeah, look, it's in their
best interest to get the project

398
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,800
going generally, but it's not in
their best interest to fail

399
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:33,000
either, you know.
So yeah, I think, I think most

400
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,240
teams that take it on themselves
will get the right people to do

401
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:37,880
it.
So they.

402
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:40,760
Also have, you know, there is
that ownership thing as well,

403
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,280
you know, so I don't think you
could sort of put it into the

404
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,120
bucket where it's just like
they've done it themselves.

405
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:48,240
So they they have ulterior
motives.

406
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:50,880
If it does go well, they have to
deliver on it.

407
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,040
Yeah, If we go back, probably
our first big job, if I go way

408
00:21:55,040 --> 00:22:00,920
back when I worked with Sapphire
Resources on Degrusa and they

409
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,360
did the study themselves.
Martin Reed did that and he's,

410
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:08,080
he's done more studies than
we've had hot dinners and he got

411
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,080
us in to do the mining component
of it.

412
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,400
So we, we sat in there like an
employee and did the mining

413
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,160
component, but the study come
out as a sand fire study and it

414
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,080
was a good study and you know,
it worked well and executed

415
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,120
well.
So, so that's that's done, you

416
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:28,680
know, not often often, but it is
done.

417
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,880
Probably is going to spend more
time looking at, you know, the

418
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,400
inputs around what's gone into
it as opposed to necessarily

419
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:37,960
he's done it.
Help that great help there for

420
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,880
sure.
Shout out Tristan Somerford.

421
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,640
How about how competitive is the
consulting tendering process?

422
00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:51,480
So, so there's a there's a big
hotshot study that's coming up.

423
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,960
Entech want to get their hands
on it and I'll assume everyone

424
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,960
else does.
Is it a very competitive

425
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,520
landscape?
Is it like Burn Cut and bar

426
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,200
Minko fighting over a contract?
Yeah, a little bit.

427
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,240
And, and it's probably a good
comparison when you look at the

428
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,960
underground contracting space
because that's where I come from

429
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,840
as well.
Elton, rest in peace.

430
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,840
So the answer is yes, it is
competitive, but it also does

431
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,800
rely on relationships.
And you know, there'll be people

432
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,240
that will come to us just
because they've worked with us

433
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:24,640
before and there'll be no
competition.

434
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,680
We just get the work.
And some of our people that are

435
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,600
in our space, that'll be the
same for them as well.

436
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,440
We won't even get a shoe in.
We won't even be able to put a

437
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:40,320
tender in, so I would say
probably only less than half of

438
00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:44,520
the work we get we would be have
to compete for and the rest

439
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,440
would just be return, return
work.

440
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,800
So if you we go back to Degruta,
your first one, one of your

441
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,240
first, well, is that probably
what 14 years ago?

442
00:23:55,240 --> 00:24:00,360
Yeah, it was 2010 and 2011.
How does the the how do how do

443
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:03,640
studies evolved and probably
yours particularly from from

444
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,360
that one to what what you do
now?

445
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:08,680
Like does I assume there's just
a bucket load of learnings from

446
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,640
studies And then give yourself
the do you think you have a

447
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,560
better statistical chance now of
executing a better study based

448
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,920
on what you learn?
Or is it it's just a continually

449
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,920
evolving environment now the
bloody lithium comes in and just

450
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:22,920
confuses the hell out of
everyone.

451
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,600
But does the skills and
expertise evolve over time and

452
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,880
the efficiency of it?
Yeah, definitely.

453
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,960
I think the software has come a
long way in that time.

454
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,920
And, and I think for, for us
people that step out of

455
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:40,080
operations and go into study
work, they've got to understand

456
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,960
that you that the work is
different.

457
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,640
And, you know, you don't have to
worry about, you know, levels

458
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,160
being one in 50 and, you know,
making sure that the sumps one

459
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,720
in six and all of this, you just
do a design that's got the right

460
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,960
amount of metres in it.
So your levels will be flat.

461
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,840
You know, if you try and do the
work at the same level of

462
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,520
diligence, you think someone's
going to execute it, then it'll

463
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,160
take you too long.
So you need to do it a lot

464
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,080
faster and obviously the tools
have changed a lot in the world.

465
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:19,040
Back in the day it was more
surpak and more data mining.

466
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,080
And as we know now Deswick have
really got a lot of the market.

467
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,440
So we tend to use that a lot
more now because a lot of our

468
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,320
clients use that.
So yeah, so I think software has

469
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,560
changed a bit as well, made
things a bit quicker.

470
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,560
What's the reality of working on
a study?

471
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:34,880
Are you working with the client
every day?

472
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,320
Are you touching base every
couple days or what is actually

473
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,840
it's?
Probably normal would be at

474
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,200
least once a week.
Yeah, yeah.

475
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,960
But we've we've worked in
people's offices as well.

476
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,600
Like even in recent times.
Yeah, someone will spend few

477
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,160
days a week in someone's office
or or we've had the client

478
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,680
working in our office as well
and what's that's good?

479
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,320
What's the sort of standard
period for for a scoping study?

480
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,160
How long is that contract?
How long will you be?

481
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,240
Working on it.
How long is a bit of string?

482
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,760
Yeah, it's a, it's a good
question.

483
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,360
I know what I say will be half
the amount of time that GM Dan

484
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:11,600
Donald will say.
So I'll get in trouble for this.

485
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,040
But, you know, you're probably
talking, you know, two or three

486
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,520
months for a scoping study.
Yeah, Yeah.

487
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,160
Jill, you mentioned earlier as
well looking at the studies and

488
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,120
maybe honing in on a couple
numbers, if it's been an in

489
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:30,200
house one, look more broadly in
house or done by another mob.

490
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,840
What are the sort of inputs you
guys may be on a Geo side and on

491
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:35,960
a sort of mining engineering
side.

492
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,800
What are the key inputs you'll
look at first if it's a non

493
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,880
Ntech study?
Yeah.

494
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,400
So I'll go first.
Yeah.

495
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,320
So for if it's a non intex
studies, yeah, all right.

496
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,320
So if we if we were to pick it
up and just be looking through

497
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:52,680
it.
Yeah, and see sort of where they

498
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:53,640
messed up.
Red flag.

499
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,680
Well, everyone thinks they can
look through something and see

500
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:58,840
what someone's like Shane said
before hindsight, it's a

501
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,560
wonderful thing.
But a couple of things that you

502
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,480
know, I would look at straight
up is just what they use for a

503
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,960
reporting cut off grade and what
their grade is.

504
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:11,480
So the reason being sort of
talks to the grade tonnage

505
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,240
curve.
You know, how many of the tonnes

506
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,600
sit right between where they've
actually reported it and what

507
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,720
they've got a minor.
And because the more the tonnage

508
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,720
that's in there, the harder they
have to work to get the, you

509
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,880
know, select what's ore and
waste, right?

510
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,040
So that's one of the kind of key
things.

511
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,120
Get the GT curve out and have a
look what everyone puts that in.

512
00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:32,680
But in terms of a, you know, if
I'm actually having a look from

513
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,520
a diligence point of view, you
know, looking through the study,

514
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,000
there's also who's contributed
to it.

515
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,160
Yeah.
I think you've said that before.

516
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,160
The first thing I'd look at is
who's.

517
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,160
Done it, yeah.
Like the individuals, I think

518
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,120
experiences is worth a lot when
it comes to study work.

519
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,720
You know, have they done similar
type projects before?

520
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,680
How did those projects go?
But on the mining side, you

521
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,920
know, the first thing we'll have
a look at is the mining method

522
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,520
selection.
Have a look at the core, make

523
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,080
sure it makes sense compared to
the mining method selection.

524
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,760
So just that, you know, I'm
talking about an hour's work,

525
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,200
you know, just the first thing
I'd look at and and then cost

526
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,960
some productivity.
How how productive do they think

527
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,120
the fleet's going to be?
Are they being realistic?

528
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:20,720
Where is the project?
So yeah, you just have a quick,

529
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,240
quick look over at a few key
things and and then do a bit

530
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,120
more work from there.
How do you know?

531
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:29,000
How do you know what an
unrealistic, like unrealistic

532
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:30,600
expectations of productivity
look like?

533
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:38,320
We've got a, we've got a pretty
good database, Damien and he's,

534
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,680
that's his job, right?
So cost and productivity.

535
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,840
Yeah, but he's underground.
It's like how many?

536
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,200
How many metres development?
Yeah, that's right.

537
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,400
So yeah, he's a wealth of
knowledge.

538
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,480
So we will sit down and have a
look at it, have a look at all

539
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,800
the key assumptions and to, to
make sure they look realistic.

540
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,240
So yeah, we've, we've got that
in here.

541
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,880
So we've got, you know, we, we
know what, what a jumbo's going

542
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,640
to get.
That's, that's the start of, of

543
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,280
the productivity, right.
So you got to get the metres.

544
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,280
So the jumbo's the first thing
you look at most important thing

545
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,560
for the start of a mind.
Do they think they're going to

546
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,680
get 200 metres a month in the
decline or 150 or 120?

547
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,920
And that, and that'll change
depending on which state you're

548
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,440
in or which country you're in as
well.

549
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,560
So, so there's there are a
couple of quick and dirty we'll,

550
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,200
we'll have a bit of a look at
just to see what they think

551
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,360
they're going to get.
Because you know, when it comes

552
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,720
to NPV, if you if you're a
little bit out and you start

553
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,640
going to and you're going to
start production six months

554
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,240
later, that's going to make a
big difference to a project.

555
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,000
So.
I think the, you know, around

556
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,920
resources, there's always, you
know, in terms of feasibilities

557
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,080
and the resources side of
things, a lot of the risks

558
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,960
haven't changed a lot.
Talking back to that question

559
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,360
you had before about, you know,
has it got better or have we got

560
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,000
better?
There's there's still a lot of

561
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,840
risks that are similar as you
know, geological complexity,

562
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,880
people classifying, you know,
potentially where it's not

563
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,520
supported by dual spacing.
Those sort of things are kind of

564
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,920
recurrent themes that they keep
coming back.

565
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,400
So you know, in terms of
feasibilities and have do you

566
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,760
get better with experience?
When you're looking at things,

567
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,760
you might, you will probably
look for flags quicker, but a

568
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:16,600
lot of the risks around
feasibilities do come back to

569
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,920
similar things.
Like one of the key things is,

570
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,840
you know, there's one resource
that underpins hell of a lot of

571
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,240
other work and value.
And, and that resource can is

572
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,640
one person's view on, on
something.

573
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,800
And if it's a simple ore body,
then the risk of them being too

574
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,960
far out, it's not too bad.
But there's no such thing as

575
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,720
really a straightforward ore
body.

576
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,440
So I think, you know, one of the
things for feasibilities is good

577
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,360
if and we've had a few clients
do this, they'll get more than

578
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,360
one resource done.
They don't really pick it, pick

579
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,360
the best one, but they might run
internally and have us do an

580
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,600
external and they'll sort of
have a look at what the

581
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:56,800
difference is.
And if there is a lot of

582
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,320
difference, we'll try and
understand what that is.

583
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,720
So does one group did three and
then that also gives feedback to

584
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,640
management and board in terms of
look, you know, we're getting

585
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,720
these big variations before it
goes into the study and the guys

586
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,480
do all their work on everything.
So 3 different Geo teams using

587
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,760
the same data.
What resource do you spit out?

588
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,840
Is that the analysis each would
do?

589
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,400
So they would sort of act
independently.

590
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,760
Yeah, and just come up.
And so the idea being you get an

591
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,000
idea of exactly the variation in
your raw body.

592
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,280
And it's not information that
everybody wants to hear, but

593
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,680
it's probably good to get an
idea of what that would be at

594
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:35,840
the start.
And if there's a lot of

595
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,920
variation, might be an
indication you should do some

596
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,000
more dense dual spacing in the
first place.

597
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,720
As it comes down to just
infilling more information.

598
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:45,360
Right.
So how so how many?

599
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,000
Is there many cases where a
company comes to you and said,

600
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,920
right, we've this is our
resource.

601
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,600
Or like, even if you've got to
do the resource and they want to

602
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,400
do a study and I think it's
enough confidence that you're

603
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,320
like, and as you said, the the
whole study is essentially

604
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:05,960
underpinned by that resource.
You're Jill walks into the room

605
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,400
and says.
And she looks like that.

606
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,560
Too bad lean forward with the
head down.

607
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,720
You know when Jill's serious.
Like we cannot do this study

608
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,920
unless there is a better drill
density.

609
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,240
Full stop.
Oh, it's an easy way to make

610
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:21,400
money.
Just do more drilling.

611
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,560
But yeah, look, the, I think
those that are happy to really

612
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,880
understand where they're going
with their project, they'll ask

613
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,240
those questions.
Yep.

614
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,440
And they'll seek outside
information like help or, you

615
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,800
know, not say help, But, you
know, systems are an opinion and

616
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,080
they're open to being able to
talk about different inputs and

617
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,120
opinions as opposed to, you
know, this is how I want it to

618
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,680
be and this is the path we're
going on.

619
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,880
And any news that sort of
disagrees with that gets

620
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,240
discarded along the way.
So.

621
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,400
Yeah.
And most companies are like the

622
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,960
most, most companies in this
country anyway are usually

623
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,360
pretty amicable and work
together and like it's, it's

624
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,360
there's a good relationship or
is there sometimes some it's a

625
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,120
bit argy bargy with with like
obviously what you think is a

626
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,960
the studier is the best going to
be the best outcome versus the

627
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,600
capital that I want to outlay
for all that work.

628
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,080
Yeah, I think they're just
discussions to have.

629
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,560
So I I've.
Been a few discussions over the

630
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,720
years, but not all clients
they're, you know, happy with

631
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,960
what you say when you tell them
it's not as good as what they

632
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,720
thought it was going to be.
So yeah, it's not all plain

633
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,800
sailing, that's for sure.
Yeah, Yeah.

634
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:29,720
No, there is.
Yeah.

635
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,560
Jill's probably thinking what am
I allowed to say?

636
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,240
But if you said it's all.
Right, she's worried I'm going.

637
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,520
To say that's what it is, she
said.

638
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,480
Too much.
But sometimes Jill doesn't even

639
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,960
get involved, right, because the
client will come to us and say

640
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,320
here's our resource, can you do
a mining study on that?

641
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,360
So completely bypassed
whatsoever and we take that and

642
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,040
we'll obviously make sure the
metal adds up in the model and

643
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,840
do all our mining type cheques
of the resource.

644
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,640
But whether that resource has
been signed off by some other

645
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,200
competent person, you have to
assume.

646
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,480
It works.
Yeah, that's right.

647
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,640
So you and.
She's bypassed and.

648
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,120
Then so then the the onus and
the liability is on that

649
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:12,080
competent.
Person.

650
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,040
So yeah, somebody else has
signed off on it, whether that

651
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,400
could be internal or external or
whatever.

652
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,880
And then I suppose broad
liability for the for a study

653
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,880
you're if you're you're putting
out a study who who does take

654
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:30,520
the onus you or the company like
is there in terms of this isn't

655
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,159
an insurance ad by the way,
probably could be, but how does

656
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,480
that work?
Well, the, the study that we put

657
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,000
out is, is, is our work and
we're accountable for that work

658
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,320
that, that we've signed off on.
So if it's a, a reserve, you

659
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,880
know, we've, we've signed off a
reserve that competent person

660
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,199
is, is liable for the work
that's been included in that.

661
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,280
They don't have control over all
the inputs because they'll get

662
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,640
experts that'll do the resource.
I'm talking mining only now

663
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:02,520
though, you know, resource
someone who's done the geotech

664
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,000
work might be done third party.
So you know, and, and they're

665
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,880
the competent person, you know,
or the, the expert, I should

666
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,680
say, for that sort of work.
There's only so much a, you

667
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,160
know, a mining type person can
look into to make sure things

668
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,640
add up.
But somebody else's accountable

669
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,760
for the work that that feeds
into it because you can't

670
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,280
control everything.
Yeah, and.

671
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,400
What so if you want to talk like
speaking geotechnically

672
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,560
specifically like say you put a
study out in the record, there's

673
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,720
recommended all the proposed
ground support patterns and

674
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:37,040
pillar spacings.
And say when that mine gets into

675
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,600
production and there is an
incident, geotechnical incident

676
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,920
and it could be a failure of
ground support or a something to

677
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,640
do with pillars or something.
Is there any liability on the

678
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,880
consultant that put that forward
in the study or does the company

679
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,320
then take on that
responsibility?

680
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,280
Well, I think, I think it's
almost the studies pretty much

681
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,960
completed at that point in time.
And then you have a geotechnical

682
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,400
team that is accountable from
that point on.

683
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,520
So they're doing the design,
they're doing the ground support

684
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,080
design, they're doing the
reviews underground, they're

685
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,440
doing the checking.
So the study's almost.

686
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,080
Old news about almost gone.
Yeah.

687
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,080
Yeah, that's the thing.
The study's like a moment in

688
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:20,240
time.
The moment in time, Yeah.

689
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,040
And a mine is evolving.
And our spreadsheets are so,

690
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,960
like, prescriptive and accurate.
But the reality of a mine is so

691
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,200
different to a spreadsheet too.
Yeah, that's why people, you

692
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,520
know, there was a question
people sort of ask at what point

693
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,040
do feasibilities sort of go out
of date?

694
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,240
Yeah, with with everything that
was changing particularly on

695
00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:40,760
costs and pricing, you know, in
the last couple of years I

696
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,200
think.
The view on that, are they out

697
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,520
of date?
What, like a month after?

698
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,400
I think obviously anything pre
COVID is out of date, right,

699
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,960
Because costs have increased so
much Yeah, quantity prices has

700
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,480
changed a lot in that time, so.
Yeah.

701
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,640
I think there's like there's a
couple of conversations.

702
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,120
Nothing, nothing actually based
on any real information, but

703
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,520
just just talk on the street,
like people sort of.

704
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:02,760
Yeah.
Like around that time, you know,

705
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,440
two years or so and you could
two to three years you could be.

706
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,160
Well, you might not need a clean
sheet of paper study.

707
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:13,440
You know, you just update all
the assumptions and you know,

708
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,800
give it a, give it a revamp.
On that sort of topic, are

709
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,400
there, are there other sort of
trends more broadly, say since

710
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,440
you started Ntech 15 years ago,
you know, things you have to do

711
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,960
in studies you didn't once have
to do, other things that kind of

712
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,960
stand out or is it, you know,
just a more simple evolution in

713
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,280
the study process?
Yeah, I don't think there's been

714
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,800
any significant changes.
I don't know, Jill on your side.

715
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:40,560
Yeah.
Now look, it's pretty boring on

716
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:41,640
that front.
You know, there's, there's

717
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,560
probably, I think moving forward
there's going to be a lot more

718
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,800
emphasis on, you know, ESG than
there has been in the past.

719
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,760
There's obviously a lot of whole
different conversation and

720
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,880
podcasts on that.
So from my point of view,

721
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,120
though, there's not a lot of a
lot of changes.

722
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,360
I think some of the
conversations around risk are a

723
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,080
lot more developed and in terms
of what you can, you know, what

724
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,440
we're now putting out in our
studies is a lot more defined

725
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,440
than perhaps it was.
And making sure risk is

726
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,120
communicated downstream.
It's a big part of the

727
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,920
conversation, probably, you
know, all the way along.

728
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,880
So that's outlining to the
client what the what you sort of

729
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,200
deemed to be the top three or
top five big risks.

730
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,880
Yeah.
Also, yeah, to make sure it's at

731
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,480
the front of everything, not
buried at the back.

732
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,480
Everyone gets rated and then you
know, feasibilities have their

733
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,800
own sensitivity inbuilt in it.
We have some, you know, in terms

734
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,160
of software you have from a
geology point of view, we have a

735
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,320
few different ways we can tackle
that now, which is really quick

736
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,320
and efficient and, and sort of
test like we're talking of, you

737
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,880
know, before about risk around
resources.

738
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,800
We can test some of their
sensitivities pretty quickly.

739
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,120
Shane, you mentioned the the NPV
before as well, the discount

740
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,240
rate, is that just shove down
your throat.

741
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:51,080
Do you have any say or any
recommendation?

742
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:56,960
No say so.
We will comment if we think

743
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,400
someone's been a bit
unrealistic.

744
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,960
What is your rule of thumb?
Thoughts on discount, right?

745
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,400
Well, if it's too far from 8%,
you're asking questions, right?

746
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,000
Yeah, yeah.
And when did it 8 become the

747
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,800
number instead of five?
I think 8 was the number.

748
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,040
Should have been the number,
yeah.

749
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:16,560
Yeah, I think obviously
inflation dropped to, you know,

750
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,640
an interest rates dropped there
at 1 stage.

751
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,120
So that's when people were
pushing 5, but before that it

752
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,400
was 8.
And So what cases shouldn't be

753
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,080
8?
What's your big factors driving

754
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:27,960
that?
I don't.

755
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,920
I'm no expert in that field.
I just ask questions.

756
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,200
Why isn't that?
I'd argue that eight's the wrong

757
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,440
number too.
I think of project project

758
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,360
finance.
You're never getting project

759
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,600
finance debt cheaper than 13%,
right?

760
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,920
So if the debt's 13% yet you
know the equities, the cost of

761
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,000
equities north of that.
So your weighted average cost of

762
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,840
capital should be somewhere in
between like you know those two

763
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,360
numbers right, the risk free
rate like.

764
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,720
AUS government bond is about 5%.
You wouldn't, there'd be no

765
00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:01,120
mines with a mine life any
longer than five years ever go.

766
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,080
And that's a point going that's.
A point, too, yeah.

767
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,960
Yeah, what now when you do your
first pass, look at a mine now

768
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,320
just in terms of and we could
probably just talk.

769
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,680
Operating mine or study?
No, just for a study something

770
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,640
comes to you what the grades for
a gold mine compared to when you

771
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,520
first started 14 years ago.
Do the numbers, Yeah.

772
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,360
Have you had to change your rule
of thumbs of what is a

773
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:27,880
profitable gold mine?
It's.

774
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,040
Probably half.
Yeah, it's just everything,

775
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,800
because it used to be like 4
gramme for an underground, 2

776
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,400
gramme for an open pit.
Now it's half of that, isn't it?

777
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,640
It'd be half, yeah.
Yeah, roughly.

778
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,800
And was that been a gradual
thing or is it just in the last

779
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:43,840
few years that we've seen these,
I think?

780
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,960
It's speed up in the last few
years.

781
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,400
I remember we did a study not
that long ago and the reserve

782
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:56,200
was sub to grammes for an
underground and everyone was

783
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,760
having a heart attack and it's
like, well, but it works and Oh

784
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,120
no, we need to get it higher.
Well, we can't just get it

785
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,080
higher.
You know, it's it is what it is.

786
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,880
We we go to one significant
figure or what do you want us to

787
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,920
do?
But it worked, right.

788
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,760
And so I think people's mindsets
have changed.

789
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,600
So that was about five years
ago.

790
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:17,960
That mind's operating how?
How many times have you ever

791
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,920
come across it like the, the,
you, you see the ore body or you

792
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,560
look at the ore body and you're
like, you smile, it's not going

793
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:26,000
to work.
And then you actually crunch the

794
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,680
numbers and it works like what?
Are there any examples where

795
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,760
you've been very surprised that
like going through the whole

796
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,040
process of of of the starting
now you could you always know

797
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,960
from the ore body intubation?
I haven't been surprised.

798
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,000
Yet I suppose you wouldn't be
good at your job, would you?

799
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,680
That's such an interesting
takeaway access.

800
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,480
Basically you can.
You can really tell from the ore

801
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,400
body.
Oh, look, there's like, like

802
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,800
Shane was saying before, you
know, you don't want, you could

803
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,120
probably maybe one thing moving
against you, but if you're

804
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,120
starting off with, you know, the
geology and resource side,

805
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:56,640
there's stuff already moving
against you.

806
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:57,760
And then there's some other
things.

807
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,360
I don't know, I think maybe when
you've done a few of them, you

808
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,560
can, you can tell geological
complexity is huge.

809
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,080
That's cost all the way along,
particularly if you don't pick

810
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,960
it up at the study level and you
experience it as you're trying

811
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,440
to ramp up.
It's you know, it's, it's the

812
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,320
reason why you know, many
struggle to, you know, in the

813
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,440
1st yes, year or two to actually
get to where they need to be.

814
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,360
So I'll weave 2 questions into
one question just to make it

815
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:24,720
hard for you, Jill.
When, when?

816
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:30,120
So what are the cases when you
see a ore body that has a high

817
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,680
grade on the surface that
doesn't work, and then on the

818
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:39,880
opposite to that, an ore body
where you see a lower grade but

819
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,520
you like this can work.
What are the factors outside of

820
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,520
the grade that make it work and
not work?

821
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,720
In terms of I guess and I'll let
change or two how you're going

822
00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:53,240
to mine it, but the higher grade
stuff if we're like talking

823
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:56,800
generally speaking tend to be
perhaps narrower vein stuff.

824
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,200
So then it goes down to width
and you know you can have really

825
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,680
good grade, but the width
doesn't really carry a start And

826
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:07,920
you know that's something that
can be a problem.

827
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,560
And in terms of lower grade,
well with pricing and everything

828
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,360
the way it is now there's you
know those sort of things are

829
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,880
actually meaning you can, you
can take a lot more bodies

830
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,920
underground than we could
probably have done before so.

831
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,320
Is that, and that's a life
thing.

832
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,880
Like it's like you can get so
much more life out of it because

833
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:25,920
you can go underground at a
lower grade now.

834
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,520
It is like it is, you know, I
wouldn't, I wouldn't want to

835
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,360
sort of generalise too much on
it, but it does change a few

836
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,280
things.
Some of the grades we can can

837
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,560
take out now means sort of what
was sort of previously

838
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:42,120
incremental can be considered
in, you know, it's just it has

839
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,680
changed a lot and it's still
changing in terms of what people

840
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,160
can operate at.
What what about like uniformity

841
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,160
and continuity?
I can't because there's probably

842
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,960
2 minds I can't mention here,
but how much is that for,

843
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,280
especially for lower grade
stuff?

844
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,800
How much does that that sounds
like a big driver in making

845
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,960
lower grade things work.
Just knowing we, I guess an

846
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,160
example we've probably seen
unfortunately far was callous

847
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,200
and like whether that was either
density or like just not

848
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,000
continuity of the ore body or
body.

849
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,800
And it's just like you might be
thinking you're getting

850
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,200
something, but you're just not
for that period in time.

851
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,760
I assume that's a pretty big
bloody driver as well.

852
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:23,280
Yeah, yeah.
Look, you know, obviously

853
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,880
because I'm a GL bang on about
complexity for the geology.

854
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,240
But yes, if you are going to
like go lower grades, the more

855
00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:31,400
simpler, simpler.
If it's a tabular kind of ore

856
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,320
body, yeah, in sandstone, then
that's a pretty simple thing to

857
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,640
tackle as opposed to say
something hitting underground.

858
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,400
It's it's, you know, hard to
find, hard to say.

859
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,920
You know, it's going to cost you
more to get that out.

860
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,760
And so that kind of eats away
your margin.

861
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,120
And what and what, and with open
pits, because we, we, we tend to

862
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,400
focus on underground a bit in
this corner over here.

863
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,520
But I'm like my, I've broadened
my horizons with pits.

864
00:44:54,800 --> 00:45:00,280
So when we talk about you might
see these pits with these, as

865
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,000
you said, tabular, it looks, you
know, it looks great on the

866
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,880
surface, but how the, the mine
ability of those tabular pits,

867
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:13,200
like I assume you can't be
scraping in great detail on a

868
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,800
pit like everything get blown up
and spread everywhere.

869
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,840
Is there what what's involved in
actually mining these

870
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:25,120
efficiently and like trying to
maximise the the grade and not

871
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,480
diluting it with shit flying
everywhere in a pit?

872
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,600
Yeah.
Well, if it's, if it is, I mean,

873
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,000
I'm just trying to get your
example.

874
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,320
If something's quite broad and
tabular, then you're not

875
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,120
necessarily going to be
selective within it.

876
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,000
So it comes down to selectivity.
If you really want to be going

877
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,400
in and grabbing a bucket here
and a bucket there, that's not

878
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,720
how you want to be mining it.
So for pits, ideally those sort

879
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:47,760
of deposits where they're, you
know, sort of tabular go across

880
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,240
spit floor similar grade, you're
not having to pick the eyes out

881
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:53,200
of it.
They will always, they will

882
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,480
always go better.
And as most gold open pits, can

883
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,920
you easily distinguish the awe
visually or are there somewhere

884
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,120
it all looks the bloody sign?
This one I saw today all look

885
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,680
the bloody sign, but you know
it's there is usually some sort

886
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,800
of redeeming feature.
You're gonna go look a.

887
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,680
Green tinge.
Just something.

888
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:15,880
Which is really good for colour
blind mining.

889
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:20,120
Engineers, yeah, yeah.
So look, obviously visual bodies

890
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,920
are good, you know, it's just
ticks one of those boxes.

891
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,880
Less, less too.
You have to worry about, you

892
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,080
know, but this people just need
to be smarter if they can't see

893
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,920
it visually.
You gotta do more work essay for

894
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,280
more background elements and try
and get a bit of a

895
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,440
characterisation around what
actually drives your whole body.

896
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,720
Then you can kind of rely on
proxies to to sort of find your

897
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:39,400
way around.
It usually means you've got to

898
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,920
spend more money on information.
So as long as it comes into your

899
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,160
pockets, it's all good.
But if the price stays where it

900
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,840
is, then yeah, everyone can
drill more.

901
00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:51,640
We spoke about a company a few
weeks ago, Xanadu.

902
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,320
You don't have to speak
specifically to the company, but

903
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:59,000
the thing we'd heard this was as
the PFS study was coming out is,

904
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,920
you know, from an investor,
ignore the CapEx.

905
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,320
That's a Western style CapEx.
The project is in Mongolia.

906
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:10,320
If a Chinese company were to buy
it, they'll slap on their own

907
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,960
CapEx and they'll be able to do
it way cheaper.

908
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:14,680
What do you kind of think of
this?

909
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:18,400
Like I'm curious to get your
thoughts about the ability of

910
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,520
sort of companies in different
countries to significantly mark

911
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,840
down the CapEx of a project?
I think it's just got to be

912
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,200
realistic.
You know, if that is what it is,

913
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,880
you would want to demonstrate
that in the study.

914
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,640
So you, you how do you justify
that cost and you'd want to see

915
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,120
that.
But there's definitely,

916
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,920
definitely different costs in
different countries for CapEx,

917
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,760
for operating equipment
selection.

918
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,720
So yeah, countries do make
massive differences in the

919
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:50,960
study.
So if we're doing a study of the

920
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,200
same ore body in two different
countries that are quite

921
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,360
different mining wise, those
studies would look different.

922
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:02,000
But, but in this case, when the
ore, you know, the ore bodies in

923
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,160
one country and you're talking
about a potential miner from

924
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,600
Australia versus a potential
miner from China, is it just

925
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,920
that they're buying different,
maybe lower quality in some

926
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,240
cases, maybe higher quality in
other cases, equipment,

927
00:48:14,240 --> 00:48:16,480
machinery, these things.
And and that's what ultimately

928
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,480
leads to the the massive change.
It's a good question for them

929
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,960
without knowing much about the
project, but I think it's bold

930
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:29,680
in saying that, you know, we,
we, we try to put science and

931
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,880
facts behind the studies.
So, you know, if there's no

932
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:37,320
science and facts behind some of
those assumptions, then yeah,

933
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,360
you'd you'd definitely be asking
questions.

934
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,640
It's what and there's probably a
lot of stuff that goes on behind

935
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,320
the scenes that we don't even
know about or appreciate and

936
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,840
one's probably like analysis
owner mining versus contracting.

937
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:53,840
Do you?
What goes into that?

938
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,600
It's a good question.
And you know, I kind of tongue

939
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,440
in cheek always say when someone
asks us they want to do that is

940
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:03,040
what do you want the answer to
be?

941
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:09,120
Yeah, because it's again,
there's there's one, one thing

942
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:14,760
that's very hard to measure,
which is of key input to that

943
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,760
analysis.
And that is what is the

944
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,680
productivity that you're going
to get as an owner operator and

945
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,720
what is the productivity you're
going to get with a contractor?

946
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,840
Are you going to assume, are you
going to assume they're the

947
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,640
same?
If so, how?

948
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:30,280
How are they going to be the
same?

949
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,680
Because costs are costs.
You know, you can go to Sandvik

950
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,440
by jumbo, you know how much it
costs diesel, you know how much

951
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,920
it costs people, You pretty much
know how much they're going to

952
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,160
cost.
So the real differences are

953
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,120
contractor margin and and
productivity.

954
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:49,640
And yeah, you know, there's big
differences in productivities.

955
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,760
I'm not saying contractors are
always better and and clients

956
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,640
are always worse, but they're
going to be different and you

957
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:58,920
need to articulate that in some
way.

958
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,240
And so based on your big
database that Daimos

959
00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:06,920
established, is there a trend
that of productivity contractor,

960
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,160
verse owner, operator?
Well, in this state we have a

961
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:15,200
lot of contractors, right.
So and, and, and what we tend to

962
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:19,720
find is owner operators later on
in the mine life and contractors

963
00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:23,400
are early on in the mine life.
So that's, that's probably more

964
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,760
so the case here in WA than
anywhere else, hence why our

965
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,120
contractors are very good and
why they're all over the world

966
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:30,960
now.
So we are very good at

967
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:36,320
development.
So I, I don't know if there's a

968
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,160
big difference because it's
very, you know, the thing about

969
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,120
mining, we're not all just
mining in concrete.

970
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:43,720
You know, every mine is
different.

971
00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:46,440
They're different depths,
they're different hardness in

972
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,800
rock.
So you can have the same people

973
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,800
in different areas going to get,
you know, drastically different

974
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:52,840
results.
So it's a.

975
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,040
It's not an easy answer for that
one.

976
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,360
And what about the balance
between development and

977
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,960
production?
When your owner operator verse

978
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,720
contractor like notoriously the
contractor, it's like they love

979
00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:06,560
doing development because they
did historically get paid more

980
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,400
for development or it keeps all
the high maintenance jumbo

981
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,720
operators happy.
But then it's trying to balance

982
00:51:11,720 --> 00:51:14,480
that to get the order or out,
which is the what the client

983
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:15,720
wants.
But the you know whether the

984
00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:18,200
contractor mightn't make as much
money off it.

985
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,320
If the contractor was set up
that way the would you think

986
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,800
owner miners are better more
aligned to get ore out to get

987
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,640
the the metal rather than
getting the higher cost

988
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,280
development done?
Yeah, I think contractors get

989
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:37,320
paid on tonnes generally, which
doesn't necessarily equal good

990
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,640
dilution and all control.
So I think that's probably the

991
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:45,800
only one that's very difficult
to align metres.

992
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,640
It's easy to align, everyone
wins, but when it comes to

993
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:53,560
stopping, yeah, it is a bit
difficult to both have the same

994
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,360
goal when it comes to that.
How?

995
00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:02,320
Does geotech impact mine design?
It's apart from geology, it's

996
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,840
really the, well, it's the
number two thing, right?

997
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,600
Because it's all about how big
your voids can be.

998
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,160
Yeah.
We never talk about geotech.

999
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,640
Yeah, well, we happen to have
the best geotech going around.

1000
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,640
Tom who?
Told me that or that Tom told me

1001
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:23,240
that, Yeah.
But yeah, we're very, very

1002
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:26,200
important.
And you know, I am the world's

1003
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,320
worst geologists have 0
interest.

1004
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,240
But I go, I love going to a
courtyard because I want to go

1005
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:35,360
and see the core to see how
structurally good or bad it is,

1006
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,600
if it's together or not.
Am I looking at sticks a coral

1007
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:40,480
or trays, a road base?
You know, because that's going

1008
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,920
to really tell you the
difference on how that mine's

1009
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:48,520
going to perform and the void
size and yeah, really, really

1010
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,120
important.
Gotcha, so bad geotech.

1011
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,240
The void's got to be smaller.
Yeah, background.

1012
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:57,840
Yep, Yep, Yep, background.
Yeah, definitely the voids and

1013
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,160
some places you can't actually
mine it underground, right,

1014
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,400
right.
But yeah, definitely the void

1015
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,440
and it changes the ground
support and Stopes whether you

1016
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,800
need paste fill, you can leave
pillars.

1017
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,800
So it's it's one of the major
inputs to mine design selection.

1018
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,960
And for open pits is it?
Angle all angle.

1019
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,680
That's that's the main thing.
So the ore, the ore might be

1020
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:20,720
nice and solid, but then you
look at the other side of the

1021
00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:22,400
core.
Oh shit, there's an ultra mafic

1022
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,520
hanging wall.
So you know your dilution is

1023
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,400
going to be shit loads.
Yeah, you have a good look at

1024
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:31,120
the hanging wall because that's
generally what's, you know,

1025
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,680
what's hanging in your Stopes.
And then you have a good look in

1026
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,400
the football because that's
where your decline's going to

1027
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,040
go.
So go to the courtyard, have a

1028
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,960
look at the ore, then go about
have a look at the next 4 trays

1029
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:41,720
that way, and have a look at the
next 4 trays that way.

1030
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:43,960
And then, you know, Oh yeah,
this would be a good Peace of

1031
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:45,960
Mind.
Courtyard site visits Courtyard

1032
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:47,800
is like the bit that I want to
blow my brains out.

1033
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,480
Get your get your mark and
there's one, there's one,

1034
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,760
there's one example, which I I
don't have the full information

1035
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,520
on, but I know it's like one of
the, you know, one of a real big

1036
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,400
up and coming open pit
sensational.

1037
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,680
But they're talking about, you
know, the future underground of

1038
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:07,680
it.
But I'm pretty sure that it has

1039
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,560
an ultra mafic hanging wall.
That might be fine to open pit,

1040
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,200
but then to take that, to take
that then underground to control

1041
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,960
the grade is like that's going
to be a big, big challenge.

1042
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:21,360
I don't know what you're talking
about which one, but but ultra

1043
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,880
mafic is there's ultramaphic and
ultramaphic.

1044
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:29,040
Some ultramaphic is very good
and some is if you look at can

1045
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:33,480
belder type ultramaphic that
where I grew up it can be

1046
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,240
horrible.
So yeah, that might be good.

1047
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:37,040
Ultramaphic.
I don't know.

1048
00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:39,080
Yeah.
Who knows, I'm just hearing that

1049
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:43,560
geology is still key.
Yeah, sorry, I'll pay attention

1050
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,080
to call you.
You are you are just the the the

1051
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,960
the sponges of the sponge card.
That's.

1052
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:50,760
Right.
Yeah.

1053
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,080
There's one other component in
these studies always look at and

1054
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,000
I'm curious where they pluck the
numbers out of the, the

1055
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,080
contingency.
So in in a DFS or PFS, it can be

1056
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,680
a relatively, you know, decent,
decent component, decent amount

1057
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:05,880
of money.
Who picks that number and how's

1058
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:10,840
that number picked?
Generally, client will look at

1059
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:14,360
the contingency and it's
generally around the CapEx,

1060
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,520
right.
So, yeah, so that's where it

1061
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:20,240
comes from.
Pretty much everywhere else in

1062
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:24,560
the study, we just try to make
realistic numbers, you know, and

1063
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,560
kind of sit in the middle of the
bell curve when it comes to

1064
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:30,320
productivities and so forth.
But CapEx will often have

1065
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,640
contingency in there which is
normally led by the client.

1066
00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:36,640
Yeah.
But that that contingency

1067
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:40,240
number, is there like a a rule
of thumb in the in the CapEx for

1068
00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:43,920
the the quantum of it or?
I'm not sure if there's a a

1069
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,040
standard number, you know, some
people use 5, some 10.

1070
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:50,400
I think again, it comes to the
confidence in the number.

1071
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,000
The less confident you are,
obviously you're going to make

1072
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:53,920
it a bit higher.
Yeah.

1073
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,200
What it is?
So what about these, these

1074
00:55:56,200 --> 00:56:00,800
tenders that we see contractors
tending tendering for a, a mine

1075
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,280
or a new portal or whatever,
even if they're, you're pretty

1076
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,880
sure it's going to one
contractor, but then you've got

1077
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,320
all these other ones tender.
And what's the role in like, you

1078
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,360
know, the numbers that get
thrown around.

1079
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:18,200
I know that contractors have to
deal with consultants to figure

1080
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:19,920
out what numbers to put in
tenders.

1081
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:25,040
Like what's what's the role you
guys play with contractors?

1082
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,360
Yeah, Damian runs that part for
us.

1083
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:34,360
He, he often runs tenders.
So he'll help the client, you

1084
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,600
know, get the physicals, the
schedule rates together and then

1085
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,400
get the formal contract and the
contract document and then and

1086
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,680
then go to tender.
So we're involved in, in that

1087
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,560
process.
Probably the key, one of the key

1088
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,160
conversations we have with the
clients is what sort of contract

1089
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,840
do you want?
Like because there's everything

1090
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:56,800
from fully variable, which is if
you do nothing, you get paid 0

1091
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,080
and you take a cut, you get paid
X amount.

1092
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,360
So there's no fixed component.
So that's kind of one extreme.

1093
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:07,200
And then the other extreme is
your cost plus essentially an

1094
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,360
alliance type contract.
And then in between, which is a

1095
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:14,640
bit more normal is where there's
some fixed like you might pay

1096
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,600
for the site manager and the
admin and maybe some of the

1097
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,120
equipment and so forth.
And then there'll be a variable.

1098
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:25,920
So and that varies generally
between about 30 to 70% fixed.

1099
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,240
So, so we have that conversation
and, and really you try to line

1100
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:35,320
up the contractor and, and the
client to have the same goal

1101
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,800
and, and that can vary and you
know, depending on the contract

1102
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,520
type and where the contract is
at that that can change.

1103
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,280
And then the market as well.
If the market's really hot, then

1104
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,560
the the risk will move from one
side to the other.

1105
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,800
And so that's why you need
someone like Mr Damian, just I

1106
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:58,760
assume that is so variable in
terms of like, as you said,

1107
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,720
timing in the market, the size
of the mine, the mine life, the

1108
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,680
whole body life.
It's just, Yep, there's a lot of

1109
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,040
a lot of ingredients that go
into that cake, a lot of cake

1110
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,120
references today.
Yeah, no, that's right.

1111
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,280
You know, there's probably 10
contractors out there and some

1112
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,520
are Tier 1-2 and three.
And depending on the project,

1113
00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:21,840
you might need a Tier 2 because
they're right sized for this

1114
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,680
project.
Or you know, if you've got a, if

1115
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,280
you've got a line down, for
example that or a Bellevue

1116
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:34,120
that's going to require multiple
jumbos, like 4 plus, then you'll

1117
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,400
need, you won't be able to talk
to the smaller guys.

1118
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:37,720
You'll have to go to the big end
of town.

1119
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,680
Yeah.
And so that's dealing with the

1120
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,320
client that's going out to
tender to the contractors.

1121
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,200
Do you ever deal with the
contractors?

1122
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:46,960
Yeah, yeah, all the time.
So what?

1123
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,320
Do you do for them?
Well, we have actually done work

1124
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,520
for some of the contractors like
helping them with mine design

1125
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,600
and so forth.
Like in Australia it's, it's

1126
00:58:56,600 --> 00:59:00,120
pretty much the client does the
mine design and gives it to the

1127
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:01,920
contractor and you give me a
price.

1128
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:06,320
But if you go overseas, a lot of
the time they'll, the contractor

1129
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:10,000
does the schedule.
So we've we've helped out

1130
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:14,400
contractors, you know, do do the
actual mining schedule and then

1131
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:16,120
present that to the client.
Yeah.

1132
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:17,640
So we've done that sort of work
as well.

1133
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:19,680
Oh, there you go.
It's like MMS mate.

1134
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,720
Oh, it's just very fully
integrated.

1135
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,640
Jill, I've got another one.
There's a number that always

1136
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,520
comes out and I'm always kind of
suspicious about it.

1137
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:32,400
I just think it's kind of open
to being gamified and that's

1138
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,720
metal equivalents.
When companies report these for

1139
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:40,000
true results or maybe on a on a
resource basis, what do you kind

1140
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,000
of think of them more broadly, I
guess?

1141
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,640
And is this something just by
default you go and interrogate?

1142
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,280
Is that just the way to kind of
go about it?

1143
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:50,800
Yeah.
I, you know, in terms of how I

1144
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,400
feel about them, I think they
they are helpful and there is a

1145
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,320
place for them.
I think there is a lot of, you

1146
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:59,920
know, there's payables, there's
pricing, there's recovery,

1147
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:02,040
there's things that go into
getting the equivalent.

1148
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,520
That means, you know, if you're
going to use them, it would

1149
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,440
generally be on a pretty
advanced project.

1150
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:10,160
Or a project which has the, the
company already has an operating

1151
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:14,840
mine using that equivalent.
So, you know, in terms of using

1152
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:18,240
them, I, you know, I know there
is debate around it, but I think

1153
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:20,680
if you have a good amount of
information behind it, there's

1154
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:22,200
no problem.
You think as long as you're not

1155
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,640
like, you know, you've got to
use the gold equivalent in a

1156
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:27,680
zinc deposit.
There is, there is, there is

1157
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:29,760
opportunities for people to
misuse them.

1158
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,520
So exploration companies, they
Chuck one up, you know, on one

1159
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:36,360
of their first sorts of
campaigns, take them with a

1160
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:37,880
pinch of salt.
That's what I'm sort of hearing.

1161
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:40,920
Yeah, I'm probably not going to,
I'm probably going to be more

1162
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,240
diplomatic.
But I would say that in my

1163
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,280
experience and how I would use
them, I have I've advised

1164
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:48,800
companies that are probably
early stage to not go with

1165
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,400
equivalent at that point and to
do it once they have some, you

1166
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:57,280
know, some information signs and
solid numbers behind a couple of

1167
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:59,240
those other things.
I mean, the trick thing about

1168
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,400
equivalents is that you it kind
of depends how you're going to

1169
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,840
get it through the plant in
terms of what the recovery is

1170
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:07,720
going to be, right.
So if you're talking about base

1171
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:11,000
metals, there's different cons
that come out the back end.

1172
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,720
You might have a metal in there,
but you're not might not be able

1173
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:16,560
to get a con out or at the
recovery that you think you

1174
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:18,800
might be able to get.
So like I said, I think if you

1175
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:23,000
stick to using them and this is
just my experience using a more

1176
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:26,560
advanced projects, that's where
I'm comfortable and we I often

1177
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,560
sort of push towards NSRS now.
So Ultra returns.

1178
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,440
Yeah, that's a clean way.
Yeah, yeah.

1179
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,880
Because you don't have that
conversation around, you know,

1180
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,120
if you've got four or five
medals which equivalent because

1181
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:40,640
sometimes they're, you know,
especially, you know, especially

1182
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:42,680
with the pricing, they're all
very similar.

1183
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:46,120
Which one do you put it on?
So NSRS are are a good way

1184
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:48,600
Totally.
That's kind of my go to.

1185
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,120
Again, it's usually they're at
feasibility level.

1186
01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:54,320
Yeah.
But yeah, it can be exciting to

1187
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:56,080
put a metal equivalent out if
you got a draw.

1188
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:00,360
What?
I've got 2 questions and after I

1189
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,040
asked the first one, you're
gonna know what the second one

1190
01:02:03,040 --> 01:02:05,440
is.
What's the best study you've

1191
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:07,520
ever done?
What?

1192
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,040
What?
What do you put the N Tech hat

1193
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,760
on as the greatest study ever
that you were most proud of?

1194
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:17,960
They have to be 1.
Well, I don't know.

1195
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:19,720
I mean, there's studies we're
doing now, but.

1196
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:21,960
They could be.
You won't know until they

1197
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,680
actually get get going whether
it's the best ever, really.

1198
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:26,040
So you.
Discount them.

1199
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,760
I think what you really want at
the end of the day is you want

1200
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:34,720
the study to be executed.
I think that's that's really

1201
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:36,440
important because at the end of
the day, we're here to build

1202
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:41,440
stuff and to to my medals.
So I think some of the proudest

1203
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,640
ones would be de Grusa.
You know, that was that was one

1204
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:46,680
of our early ones and.
Start at the top.

1205
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:49,160
We started.
Like it was really, really good

1206
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:54,520
for five years or even longer.
So, so that was really good.

1207
01:02:55,120 --> 01:03:01,760
We also did the study for Nova,
another cracking deposit and you

1208
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:03,760
know, that's, that's in this
later years now.

1209
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:08,200
But, but pretty much what we
said in the study happened,

1210
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:12,120
which was which was really good,
really wanted to convey there to

1211
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:14,600
put a conveyor in an underground
crusher, but we couldn't get

1212
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,840
that one across the line.
Unfortunately, the previous

1213
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:21,920
owners didn't want to spend that
little bit extra, but that was

1214
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:24,120
that, that was quite good.
So yeah, at the end of the day,

1215
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:29,480
I think look, we we like doing
the work we do, but we really

1216
01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:33,160
like it when the mines happen.
I think that's that's what it's

1217
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:34,800
all about.
I won't.

1218
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:35,680
I was going to ask you.
Sure.

1219
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:37,960
What the next?
One is, but I'll rephrase it.

1220
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,320
What's been one of the?
Is there any that stand out that

1221
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:45,240
were the most not difficult, but
you like really had to unpack a

1222
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:50,040
lot of new learnings to get the
study done something very new

1223
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:53,040
and they're probably.
Ones you haven't heard about.

1224
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:56,640
I think.
Or are they sometimes commodity

1225
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:02,920
specific?
Look, I think we're doing some

1226
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,640
work at the moment and, and
we're doing something that's a

1227
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:09,520
bit new, which is, which is
doing some discrete event

1228
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:12,400
simulation.
And that's, you know, we all

1229
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:18,560
know that a truck can do 90,000
to 120,000 TKMS a month, get 450

1230
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:20,520
to 500 hours.
We, we kind of know these

1231
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:22,120
things.
We know a decline can get

1232
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:26,200
2,000,000 tonne a year out.
You know, so we use a lot of

1233
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:31,400
rules of thumb in mining and but
what that doesn't allow you to

1234
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:35,200
do is really push the envelope
and get that extra 5 or 10% and

1235
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:38,760
say, OK, how many tonnes can we
really get out of a decline?

1236
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:43,200
Or if we're loading a crusher
underground, will one 2900 do?

1237
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:46,120
Or if we put two in there, do we
get double?

1238
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:52,360
So we're starting to do
simulation around those events,

1239
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,920
you know, on a real time basis
where you can, you can do some

1240
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:59,480
calibration and then you can,
you can run that and actually

1241
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:02,720
see what you can do, you know,
congestion.

1242
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:05,080
So it really deals really well
with congestion.

1243
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,000
You put in crib times, you put
in normal distributions, you do

1244
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,200
all this kind of work.
So, so that's exciting.

1245
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:12,640
That's something that we're
doing a bit new at the moment.

1246
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:17,200
Chap Chap GPN Tech.
Pretty nobody wants to pay for.

1247
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:22,640
It but it's till now give a
special discount card for that

1248
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,880
yeah.
What what about the the and it's

1249
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:28,920
I wouldn't say it's going quiet,
but there was the push not long

1250
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:33,320
ago with the electrification of
Australian mines, which is with

1251
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:36,440
one in seven declines is very
challenging.

1252
01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:39,760
And so not, not practical
sometimes.

1253
01:05:40,000 --> 01:05:43,160
But with the new stuff coming
out with I know there's the

1254
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:46,880
battery electric trucks, but
then the potential hybrid

1255
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:53,160
versions for trucks and loaders.
What is your first take on all

1256
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:58,120
of this and is it all possible
for a one in seven decline in

1257
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,200
Australia?
Yeah, Well, this is the actual

1258
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,680
reason why we started doing the
discrete event simulation,

1259
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:06,680
because we wanted to understand
how to compare diesel and

1260
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:08,600
electric trucks.
You know, when do you, how do

1261
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:11,160
you charge a truck?
How do you know do your battery

1262
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:12,280
swap?
Where does the charger go?

1263
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:14,160
And really we wanted to model
that.

1264
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:17,080
I think we're definitely going
to well, we're definitely

1265
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:19,240
heading in that route.
I think it's going to take

1266
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:23,240
longer than what people think
and I and every mine will be

1267
01:06:23,240 --> 01:06:25,720
different.
Some mines will will have

1268
01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:27,360
battery electric trucks not a
problem.

1269
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:31,440
Others will have hybrids because
you just cannot have a battery

1270
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:34,320
big enough.
So I think it's going to be

1271
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,960
horses for courses.
I I like electric loaders.

1272
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:38,920
I think they will be a good
thing.

1273
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,880
My personal opinion is we won't
be swapping batteries, We'll be

1274
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:46,160
charging batteries.
I think that is a a cleaner

1275
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:50,440
more.
I think the mines are more

1276
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:54,200
amenable to integrating that
than actually battery swapping

1277
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:56,200
it.
I think it sounds a lot easier

1278
01:06:56,200 --> 01:06:59,960
than it is.
Charging is in hot like a hybrid

1279
01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:00,360
like.
Charger.

1280
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:02,960
No, I think you'll have a
battery loader and you'll pull

1281
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:06,120
up and you'll sit there for 2025
minutes and charge it up and

1282
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:07,480
then you'll go again.
Yeah.

1283
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:09,880
The problem with battery
swapping is each of those

1284
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:11,800
batteries is probably worth
$1,000,000 each.

1285
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:14,840
So have you got three?
You got $3,000,000 sitting there

1286
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:17,560
charging or $2,000,000?
That's another loader, yeah.

1287
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:19,800
You might as well just have a
loader and charge it up.

1288
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:22,280
So, and they're probably some of
the things we want to model

1289
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:26,120
because you sound like, oh, you
know, 22 minutes or 25 minutes

1290
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:27,440
to charge up.
Yeah, but you can go and have

1291
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:29,600
crib, you can service it, you
can do other things.

1292
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:33,400
But really trying to understand
what that means in the day to

1293
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,280
day life of a mind, I don't
think we really understand yet.

1294
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:39,000
But the OEMs have still got some
catching up to do.

1295
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,480
They're not there yet.
You know, there's not a whole

1296
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:44,000
fleet of them sitting on Grayson
Highway ready to go to work at

1297
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:47,040
the moment.
So yeah, it's going to take

1298
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:49,600
time, but we will get there.
Do you, do you think there's

1299
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:53,840
going to be any change in how
the clients and companies invest

1300
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:58,240
like outlay the capital for
Greenfield projects if there's

1301
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,560
not like there's shit loads of
them coming online in terms of

1302
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,120
electrifying it with shafts
instead of.

1303
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,920
We're already working on a
project.

1304
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:12,040
We've been pushing conveyors.
So we, we think because

1305
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:14,680
conveyors is you know and it
will depend on the depth and the

1306
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,000
tonnage and, and all of that and
we can model that.

1307
01:08:17,319 --> 01:08:22,160
So I think that is the easiest
way to electrify a mine and and

1308
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:26,040
haul decent amounts of dirt to
you know, 2 to 3,000,000 plus

1309
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:29,120
tonnes per annum because it kind
of gets above where trucks

1310
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:33,560
really work that well.
So shafts I think we will see

1311
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:36,760
shafts but they are big and
expensive.

1312
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:41,120
So I think there's got to be,
and now all bodies don't really

1313
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,359
suit it.
I think the Super Pit will be a

1314
01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:44,600
classic.
I reckon there'll be a few

1315
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:47,120
shafts out there and they're
running, I don't know, half a

1316
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:49,479
dozen jumbos and half a dozen
portals and they're going

1317
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:52,479
bananas there.
So there'll be. 24 million tonne

1318
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:54,120
mines coming up, it's
unbelievable.

1319
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:58,160
They'll have a cave it.
Possibly, yeah, yeah, sub level.

1320
01:08:58,240 --> 01:08:59,760
Good way to deal with all the
voids.

1321
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:04,880
Yeah, I'm OK myself.
Yeah, what's the and so with the

1322
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:08,399
conveyors is it, is it still you
pretty much have to, it has to

1323
01:09:08,399 --> 01:09:12,520
be straight and then something
going over the top of it and it

1324
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:14,880
has to be a striped exact cannot
be curved.

1325
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:18,680
No, no, just impractical cost
wise.

1326
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:20,359
I think there is curved
conveyors, but I don't think

1327
01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:23,720
anyone's doing that.
Yeah, I think they're very old

1328
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:27,000
simple technology, very easy way
to electrify a mine.

1329
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:31,840
I think the other thing that
we've looked into and mines, you

1330
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,920
know, we're seeing a lot more
solar farms and, and you know,

1331
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:39,520
wind farms on mine sites now so
that even, you know, will will

1332
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,439
bring us closer to having fully
electric mines because there's

1333
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:44,319
no point.
A lot of the mines at the moment

1334
01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:45,520
are burning diesel on the
surface.

1335
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:51,120
So why electrify, electrify your
mine only to add another 3

1336
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:53,600
diesel gensets onto the surface.
You know what, what are you

1337
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:56,480
really doing it waste?
It's it's not really much of A

1338
01:09:56,480 --> 01:10:00,440
benefit, but if we can tap into
green power and in some of these

1339
01:10:00,440 --> 01:10:05,560
mines, you know, Lion Town just
put in a massive hybrid power

1340
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:08,160
station there, you have lots of
green energy.

1341
01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:11,640
Same with Bellevue.
Jandy are putting in some just

1342
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:13,920
put in some wind turbines.
I think so, yeah.

1343
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,520
I think the future is electric
for those mines.

1344
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:20,080
And with those conveyor setups,
is there like you, you might you

1345
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:22,240
might be able to leave a hook
for people to come through your

1346
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:27,240
door here, but is there is there
being evolved how to actually

1347
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:31,200
develop the mine, install
conveyor systems, maintain

1348
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:35,440
egress without having to Chuck
in multiple different declines

1349
01:10:35,440 --> 01:10:38,600
like can you drive utes under a
conveyor belt?

1350
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:44,280
The well Nifty had that so nifty
had a conveyor belt in the top

1351
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:46,600
part of the mine and you drive
under it.

1352
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:48,400
That was the main in and out of
the mine.

1353
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:51,360
The mines department don't
really like it because if that

1354
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,200
catches on fire, which conveyor
belts can, and that's your fresh

1355
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,480
air intake, then it's a problem.
So, so really they they need to

1356
01:10:57,480 --> 01:11:00,360
be in an exhaust airway.
So you will have they will have

1357
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:03,160
service availability and you
know you will be able to drive

1358
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:07,040
white vehicles most likely
beside them small vehicles to

1359
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:08,640
clean up and whatever and
service.

1360
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:12,160
But more than likely they'll be
in an exhaust airway.

1361
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:15,480
But you'll be able to run HV
down there and air water

1362
01:11:15,480 --> 01:11:18,680
pumping.
Yeah and yeah.

1363
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:21,560
So that will be used for other.
And so you'll still have to

1364
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:26,960
always maintain a conveyor free
declines for main traffic, fresh

1365
01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:29,440
air intake.
So does that will that likely

1366
01:11:29,440 --> 01:11:33,560
change how ventilation systems
are designed in underground

1367
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:35,080
mines?
Because you've got to have,

1368
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,400
you're going to have a dedicated
return airway system that is in

1369
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:41,880
a decline, not in necessarily.
You'll probably still need both.

1370
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:46,840
You will still need both because
really at the bottom of the, the

1371
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:50,200
bottom of the conveyor is a
crusher which will produce dust.

1372
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:56,200
So you want to be taking its own
own dust out of the mine and

1373
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:57,560
that's generally the way to do
it.

1374
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:01,080
So, but don't forget now you
don't have 10 trucks running

1375
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:05,760
1214 trucks or you know, so
there's big benefits on

1376
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:09,160
ventilation in that side of it.
And then so I assume you're a

1377
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:12,040
big part of what you guys will
be doing is determining, right,

1378
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:16,680
how deep can we put and all body
dependent, how deep can we put

1379
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,600
this conveyor and the crusher
system and getting you the

1380
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:23,320
earliest amount of cash flow
because obviously the deeper it

1381
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:27,800
goes, the longer it takes to get
the most optimum production

1382
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:29,320
going.
Yeah, you normally start off

1383
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:30,360
with trucks.
Yeah.

1384
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:31,800
So it's a.
Ramp, you're always gonna.

1385
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:33,320
Have to, yeah, You're gonna have
to start off with trucks.

1386
01:12:33,480 --> 01:12:35,720
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.

1387
01:12:36,480 --> 01:12:37,880
Well, it's too late.
We digress.

1388
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:41,720
We digress into talking mining.
No, that was that was

1389
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:43,640
fascinating.
Just one last one on that.

1390
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:47,680
Do you think sort of as a basic
rule electrifying open pits will

1391
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:51,240
be much easier before
underground or you think equally

1392
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:55,240
just very challenging?
No, I think open pits definitely

1393
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:59,040
electrifiable, especially the
bigger ones that will use the

1394
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:01,120
containeries.
You know, they've been around

1395
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:04,560
for a long time and and I, you
know, they're just getting

1396
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:08,360
better at modularizing these
things so you can get them in

1397
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:10,320
relatively easy and you can
still have battery.

1398
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:13,680
I know there's a few people
working on battery triple sevens

1399
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:16,320
and you know, aftermarket units
and so forth.

1400
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:19,960
So I think, you know, it's, it's
a thing, it'll happen as well.

1401
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:22,640
Awesome, Joe, I'm all out of
questions.

1402
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:24,760
Guys, do you know that you're
recruiting for JI's or anything

1403
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:27,640
at the moment, Jimmy, you can
Chuck it for a job advert up at

1404
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:33,560
the bar.
Just put one on actually.

1405
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:36,720
There you go very much.
Oh right, thank you very much

1406
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:37,840
for that.
On on short.

1407
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:39,640
You can't say it was short
notice.

1408
01:13:39,640 --> 01:13:43,360
We've been trying for a year,
but now I appreciate that.

1409
01:13:43,440 --> 01:13:46,080
Learnt an absolute shit load.
Thanks a lot.

1410
01:13:46,080 --> 01:13:47,720
That's.
The secrets of consulting.

1411
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:51,240
Thanks very much.
No, I haven't.

1412
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:52,520
Yeah.
Thanks guys.

1413
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:53,040
Cheers.
Awesome.

1414
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:57,760
Sensational mate, tell you what
special place in my heart in

1415
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:01,960
tech Maca was one of the I think
he was like my first ever

1416
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:04,720
sponsor on life of mine back in
the day.

1417
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,480
What a champion.
With me some cash each month and

1418
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:10,000
I'll just I actually felt bad
taking it.

1419
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:14,000
He was, he was, yeah.
He was one of the great the out

1420
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:17,840
of that journey, one of the,
there's a couple of people that

1421
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:20,720
really influenced this whole
thing and where we are today and

1422
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:23,160
he was one of them.
So fucking a lot of thanks to

1423
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:24,520
him.
Yeah, I don't think we'd be

1424
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:25,760
doing money in mind if it wasn't
fair.

1425
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:29,400
Well, no, I'll tell you the
story about why, and I think

1426
01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:32,720
I've told this before when I was
just interviewing drunk

1427
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:35,880
underground miners all the time.
I'm I want to do a battery

1428
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:39,560
metals spectacular of like I
want to start talking about

1429
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:42,120
these battery metals and start
talking about the share Mark and

1430
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:47,240
I went to macro said who do you
know anyone who I could talk to

1431
01:14:47,240 --> 01:14:51,040
him about lithium, copper and
nickel and he's like, I've got

1432
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:54,520
the guy forwards me on to Andy
Clayton from precision funds

1433
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:58,520
management, who are next door.
And that was how talking about

1434
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:00,920
share market started start doing
and then you 2.

1435
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:03,640
Channel.
One news channel 9 news and then

1436
01:15:03,640 --> 01:15:07,320
you 2 are like fuck this guy
needs some help and his money

1437
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:11,200
might so pretty much cheers
Shane McLeod and cheers mineral

1438
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:15,600
mining services, our floody
partners, along with who else we

1439
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:17,240
grounded.
We've got grounded, we've got

1440
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:20,520
cross boundary energy, we've got
Sambic ground support, CR

1441
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:24,480
insurance, Kaydrill Dash Sat.
And thank you very much for the

1442
01:15:24,480 --> 01:15:27,520
intent for coming on.
Have a great weekend, cheers.

1443
01:15:29,480 --> 01:15:32,000
Information contained in this
episode of Money of Mine is of

1444
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:34,080
general nature only and does not
take into account the

1445
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:37,680
objectives, financial situation
or needs of any particular

1446
01:15:37,680 --> 01:15:39,720
person.
Before making any investment

1447
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:42,800
decision, you should consult
with your financial advisor and

1448
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:45,920
consider how appropriate the
advice is to your objectives,

1449
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:48,120
financial situation and needs.