The Gold M&A Wave Has Started (Hedley Widdup)

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Travis Ricciardo, we have a fan
favorite.

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We have Headley Whit up joining
us again for a fantastic

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discussion.
We're talking Goldie's, we're

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talking big deals in the mining
space.

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We're talking about the
companies that he is most

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excited about across the boards
right now.

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What he's doing with the
portfolio, how he's thinking

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about deploying the capital that
he has the the part of the cycle

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in which we're in IPOs, deals,
all these sorts of things.

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So.
I always, I always want to ask

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Heidi about just offbeat obscure
companies and he very candidly

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gives me like tells us what he
really thinks, which I threw a

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few if you were them at him.
But we start the conversation

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talking about the very topical
Vault Regis merger.

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At the time we were recording
this, I'm like, I'm I'm certain

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that vault was not trading above
terms right now.

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If you're watching Vault Regis
relative share price, Vault is

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trading above terms which is a
bit more indicative of a

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different take of what than what
I had at at the time.

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And this was only recorded a
couple days ago, so enjoy it

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money miners.
Before we jump in, we've got to

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talk about the great Sandvik
ground support, don't we Trev?

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Absolutely mate.
I in fact I can't stop myself

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talking about the great Sandvik
ground support.

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I have to.
I have to hold myself back

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because I'm elated thinking
about the great standard.

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Ground support, you know what I
find myself doing just going on

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Derek Herds LinkedIn page and
just seeing the latest R&D that

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they're doing.
They're coming out with new

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types of bolts all the time.
They're coming out with new

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sensors and these sorts of
things to keep mines safe on the

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ground to make sure the industry
keeps ticking and pushing ahead.

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You know what's around the
corner, mate, Christmas in July

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and we normally tell people,
money monitors to get their

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Christmas orders in for San
Marquin.

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Christmas in July is not that
far away.

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In fact, you know what?
There's always someone's

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birthday around the corner.
Mother's Day, Father's Day, all

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those.
All of those are opportunities

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to get your Sandvik Ground
support order.

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Couldn't have said it better.
There's a lot of supply chain

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disruptions as well, as we know
across the world, so you'd be

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prudent to get that order in
ASAP.

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Go Derek Hurd and go Sandvik
ground support.

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Onto our conversation with
Headley Widow.

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Headley went up.
We are joining you in Melbourne

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and we we're fresh off.
We're fresh off some some

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relatively big news in in the
gold M and a space.

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A deal that kind of took took us
by surprise.

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We took a lot of people by
surprise because it wasn't the

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the perfect marriage, but it was
a big marriage nonetheless.

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Vault and Regis tying together
creating a plus $10 billion ASX

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behemoth producing circus of
700,000 oz per annum but no

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regional synergies.
What is, what is a, what is a

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script deal like this mean in
the context of the framework

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that you know, you look at the
mining landscape?

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Yeah, Well, first of all,
welcome to Melbourne, Trev.

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I know JD, you come here fairly
frequently, but we're obviously

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all dressed up in our Melbourne
Woolies, so you know you're

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here.
Yeah.

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Interesting deal.
I don't think there's been any

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secret that they've been sort of
various levels of acquisitive

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interest across the gold space.
And there's always names that

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you see pop up and then there's
always names that kind of pop up

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and then get eliminated on the
basis of, oh, well, I think

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they're actually looking to be
taken over rather than.

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So, you know, it's fascinating
when you can think of one

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company, I'd say Regis has been
fingered as being involved in

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most of the processes for
companies or projects.

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And you know, that had a that
had a knock back in New South

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Wales.
So they probably thought that

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would have been in their
production profile by now to be

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picking up production obviously
makes sense with their strategic

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plan.
And it looks as if they've gone

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through a great many things.
So, you know, to land on

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established production and, and
pull in the whole of vault,

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which I think, I mean, I've
always wondered, I don't want to

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get yelled at by anyone.
And that can happen sometimes

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when you talk about some
companies.

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But I'd wondered whether there
was a succession plan that they

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just weren't getting to.
And this makes perfect sense.

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What do you think they were
really going to do?

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Like was there ever really a
succession plan there?

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No.
No, I don't think they had a

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succession plan.
I think they'd announced that

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they needed one, but they didn't
have one.

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And, you know, recruiting is
hard, promotion is hard in terms

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of deciding exactly who, and
there's always certain

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characteristics that you want to
fulfil when you put a person in

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a seat.
So, you know, and maybe maybe

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that was part of the challenge.
So it's not to say that getting

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taken over is a fresh start, but
it probably just obliviates the

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need for all of that to take
place.

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It it felt glaringly obvious at
their AGM last year, I think

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three or four months after they
made an announcement finally on

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succession planning, that it
wasn't mentioned.

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Yeah, not, not once did it come
up during the AGM.

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How many times?
Has there been the need to

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replace a person at the top of
that organization, whether it's

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Silver Lake or Vault?
And it was like the the Luke's

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gonna move on and then doesn't
move on.

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It just I'm sure that that's
come up more than once

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historically and whether that's
been rumoured or announced, I

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can't recall.
But you know, it's so I, it's

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always hard to know what's going
on behind the scenes there.

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And why do you keep staying when
you've said you were gonna go I,

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I don't know so.
Yeah, but it's like, I mean,

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it's a defensible outcome.
You do a jail like step, step

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off stage, right?
Maybe, you know, maybe it's in

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the best interest of
shareholders, the deal deal

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terms, Yep, there's there's a
premium even though it's a, you

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know, merger of equals kind of
vibe.

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But but the question I have is
like, is this?

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Is this the sort of deal that
like really makes sense?

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What does it say about the
characteristic of deal making?

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Yeah, I mean, there's been a lot
of things which have seemed

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quite synergistic, like Spartan
and Remelius coming together

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when they're both next door
neighbors made a great deal of

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sense.
You know, you, you always find

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things when you peel back the
covers, I think of assets and

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grind sizes and mill suitability
and things like that.

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But being so close together, I'm
sure they were, you know, that

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you're not going to find
regional synergies anywhere

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unless you're right next to each
other.

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So to see a scatter of assets
coming together into a bigger

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scatter of assets does raise the
question, doesn't it?

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And I guess, you know, you can
streamline corporate processes,

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but I don't think that really
strips too much out of a

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business.
I think what it says fairly

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clearly is that there is
companies in the space that just

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have a desire to be larger
production output, larger cash

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growth and larger market cap
you.

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You normally want to improve the
quality of your portfolio to

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deal on at least that's like a a
sensible line of thinking.

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Or maybe maybe in this case,
like you say, it's just about

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size to size sake.
But what does it also say about

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like I I actually think they're
they're not too like in not too

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dissimilar situations.
Both Regis and Vault they've

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they've they've both kind of got
yeah, formidable production

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profiles, no denying that.
But they've got kind of

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unanswered questions about their
reserves as you look out into

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the future on their cornerstone
assets being, you know, coughing

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and drinking undergrounds and
throwing to that.

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You've got like sugar.
I think of sugar zone and

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Mcfilimy's as analogous.
Even then they're not from a

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production potential production
perspective, but you know like

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sugar zones been this kind of
like ancillary project in the

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distance.
It may becomes back in.

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I think it is coming back in
like 12 months time, Yeah, in a

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better way.
And then Mcfell it means like

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you're waiting in event that
will be a really good project,

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but it needs capital in time.
Yep.

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I just think they're in similar
situations.

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And instead of, yeah, instead of
a deal that revitalizes the

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longevity of their reserves,
they've kind of just, it's more

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of the same.
And what's the opportunity cost

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of doing that?
It's it's not moving on some

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other undeveloped project.
And I'm I'm not saying that

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there is some magical beautiful
project that they go by, but you

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know, you've long talked about
the the, the stage of the cycle

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where the developers just get
bit up.

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Yep.
And that's not what this deal

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is.
Well, I think when you run out

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of medium sized companies to put
together, you know, acquisition

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then has to turn its sights very
squarely to the developers.

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So you know, I feel that's
probably a step towards that

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because if you've run out of,
you know, really synergistic

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things to collect around
yourself, you start to think

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about how you can build value by
adding to the portfolio.

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So I wouldn't, I wouldn't say
that it's always hard as well

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with M&A to put yourself inside
the boardroom, put yourself

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inside the discussion with major
shareholders and, and what, what

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are you achieving through a
deal, whether it's the

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combination of Vault and Regis
or whether it's, you know,

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company X acquiring surrounding
company Y or something like

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that.
You know, there are always

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hidden things which you're
probably never going to see and

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you'll, you'll see the
headlines, but there's all sorts

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of things beneath the, the, the
surface.

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And I would be guessing that,
you know, from one of those

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companies perspectives, it
probably answers a succession

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plan.
It, it puts them in a strong

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managerial sense to say, well,
here is, you know, there's an

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established track record and
leader who will manage to

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combine business into the
future.

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So that's, I would say that's
probably a tick.

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And you could probably also say
that for something like

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Mcfillimy's for example, And I'd
say that's a little bit

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different to sugar zone in that
Mcfillimy's is in Australia,

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sugar zone isn't.
It it it.

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Makes it a smaller part of the
greater portfolio.

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So it's optionality still sits
there, but with the acknowledged

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challenge of, you know, you need
some political things to either

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settle down or change direction
completely for that to be

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developed.
And I'd say they'd still got a

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great hope that it will one day
be in mind.

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You just need time overall
things needs time and and

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probably healing and and just an
engagement and serious

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engagement that can get you to
the starting line there.

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So for that optionality to play
out, I think sitting within a

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much bigger portfolio makes a
lot of sense there.

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So I think it probably
ultimately protects the value of

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something like Macfillan is a
lot better than sitting inside

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just, you know, the size of what
Regis was, which is a a well

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established company.
But I think the scale helps

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there.
But then how does that turn to

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the developers?
Well, I suppose the question is

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could Regis have acquired
anything which is at development

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stage, which would be closer?
I think there's always a risk

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here that a mid tier, let's call
it a mid tier.

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I mean, the global mid tier is
very different to the Australian

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mid tier.
Most of what we talk about is

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majors in Australia are mid tier
companies on the global stage.

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You know, they're they're genius
to mids in the Australian space.

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And for for them to be
purchasing a a development

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situation, they probably need a
step change from it at the

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moment.
It's not to say that it's not to

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say that they have great
development options of their

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own, but they've been very
disciplined in building cash,

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maintaining margins.
So for them to bite something

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off that doesn't seem like
there's too much left of a

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Remelius being able to purchase
a W Musgrave, for example, which

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is just very high grade, rapidly
developable, instantly adding to

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their their inventory.
I think for them to go after an

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acquisition from here, it
probably needs to be in the 2 to

226
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,520
4 million oz realm and it needs
to be able to fit into their

227
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,680
portfolio to say this will be a
dominant part of the future

228
00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:01,160
rather than just an accretion
around the edges.

229
00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,000
And and when it comes to
accretion around the edges, I

230
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,720
mean we've seen Australian mid
tiers vending those sorts of

231
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,480
projects as well.
So that adds a really

232
00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,520
interesting dimension, I think
to what the mentality must be

233
00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:14,640
and as far as M&A might look
into the future.

234
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:19,120
I think what they, what they, I
think Regis is like, what's the

235
00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,320
deal rationale here?
Actually, I think it's like

236
00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,600
they're, they're counting on
this giving them more capability

237
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,640
to do the deal that they really
want to do, which is buying the

238
00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,520
other 70% of trop and, and
potentially the rest of Anglo

239
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,080
Gold's Australian portfolio.
And that's the, that's the deal

240
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,440
that they can do it creatively
because they've got the, they've

241
00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,520
got the roofer on 70% of Trop.
So you know, they're not going

242
00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,880
to have to blow their brains out
because of that, you know,

243
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,600
wonderful dynamic.
However, can they get their own

244
00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,760
value?
Well, well, well, it was in

245
00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,200
Jim's own words on the on the
call that this gives them more

246
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,600
capability to to do something to
do, to do bigger things.

247
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,480
And I think I think that was a a
comment that maybe things fell

248
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,520
over with Anglo in in their
pursuit of that.

249
00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,880
And maybe that will come become
available in the future.

250
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,160
But to just get size for size
sake to do more capability.

251
00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,400
I hope it pans out and I hope
that, you know, other parts of

252
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,280
the portfolio don't.
Don't pressure the.

253
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,040
Capability of the in the
interim, you know.

254
00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,000
Yeah.
Oh yeah, Can recall when that

255
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,480
speculation about Regis for
Tropicana was in the media and I

256
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,680
was part of a small audience
that was listening to Albert

257
00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:27,680
Alberto Calderon maybe a week or
two later and.

258
00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:29,160
Melbourne Mining Club.
Was.

259
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,880
He spoke there, but he he did a
round of institutional meetings

260
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,120
as well.
And someone asked him about the

261
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,040
speculation.
And it was like it was the kind

262
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,440
of thing that you would kind of
expect just to be put to bed

263
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:42,640
straight away.
Oh, look, you know, I can't

264
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:44,200
comment on whether we're going
to sell it or not.

265
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,160
If we do the process to be or
something like it was nothing

266
00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:48,480
like that.
The response was kind of more

267
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,880
along the lines of, well,
clearly there's some leakage

268
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:52,880
from our partner.
And it was.

269
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,720
So it wasn't like, no, we're not
talking about it.

270
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,960
No, we're not going to deal.
It was so I.

271
00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,280
You know I.
Made me wonder about how that

272
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,920
kind of thing fell over.
And so then to extend your, your

273
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,360
line of reasoning there, you
know, if this is to put them in

274
00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,400
a stronger position to be that
acquirer, maybe being a bigger

275
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,280
company will help because Anglo
Vending into something is going

276
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,120
to feel a lot better about it
being a a much bigger company

277
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,160
with a more versatile cash flow
and supposedly stable balance

278
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:23,320
sheet from size.
So.

279
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:28,280
One of the hiccups, you know,
in, in, in that whole dynamic I

280
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:33,760
think is Anglo's current credit
rating is, is tied to a certain

281
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,480
percentage of their portfolio or
certain percentage of their

282
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,640
earnings coming from, you know,
what they call these, you know,

283
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,960
Tier 1 jurisdictions or, you
know, their bondholders calling

284
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,440
Tier 1 jurisdictions or whatnot.
So until, until the Nevada

285
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,280
development project, which by
the way looks phenomenal, comes

286
00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:53,400
into production, then then
there's a, a, a reluctance to

287
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,760
actually part ways with
Australia because of what the

288
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,840
implications it can have to
their, yeah, their, their credit

289
00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,600
rating.
Well, I think there's been a

290
00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,280
whole host of originally South
African producers which have

291
00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:07,240
been very, very keen over the
past 20 years to expatriate

292
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,680
their production, broaden their
portfolios into places like

293
00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:13,640
Australia and the States.
So yeah, you could see that

294
00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,600
hesitancy.
In fact, I think someone went on

295
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,440
to say, well, if Tropicana's for
sale, how do you feel about

296
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,000
your, the rest of your
Australian assets?

297
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,000
And I can't remember the exact
response, but you know, it's

298
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,720
quite well reasoned in that they
look at each of their projects

299
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,080
in a different light.
And I think there was a Barb in

300
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,280
this, which was that, you know,
your, your production in

301
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,320
Australia is being fed at
something like 80% of the, the

302
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,720
process capacity.
How do you feel about that?

303
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:38,880
And, and he was like, I'm not, I
don't care about process

304
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,000
capacity.
I care about cash flow and cash

305
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,720
flow into the future.
And it was kind of like the rest

306
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,840
of what we have in Australia, we
are very, very solid on.

307
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:51,680
So I, I don't know, I think
simply reading, you know, I'm

308
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,880
sure that Regis would be
enthusiastic about those assets.

309
00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,720
And I dare say that if you took
a, let's say, Remilius or a

310
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,720
Northern Star operating attitude
to something like a Sunrise dam,

311
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,880
you may actually be able to find
external laws to feed to it as

312
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,480
well, which might change the
face of that.

313
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,280
It seemed like Anglo had a
completely different perspective

314
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,760
of how they wanted to operate it
and were completely comfortable

315
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:15,560
with it.
So didn't get to explore it, but

316
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,360
you know, I'd say it'd be, it's
always, it's always fascinating

317
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,120
to try and get in the heads of
those people that make the

318
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,400
decisions, but never easy.
You mentioned Remelius there,

319
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,520
they had Edna May or have had
Edna May on the on the chopping

320
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,280
block for for some time, but
they seem to have changed,

321
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:33,680
changed their tone a little bit.
What do you think's going to

322
00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,080
happen?
There.

323
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:37,800
Good question.
If someone's been gunner and

324
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,400
then not gunner and then gunner
and not gonna.

325
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:42,800
You got to say they'll probably
just keep doing that.

326
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,440
I think.
I mean, if I step back and

327
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,640
think, well, what has changed in
that time?

328
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:50,440
Edna May.
Has always been a fairly

329
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,320
challenging asset.
I remember seeing Jim Askew,

330
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,120
who'd been the the chairman of
evolution and then lead

331
00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,400
independent director of
evolution for a long time and he

332
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,200
used the expression that it was
the runt of the litter.

333
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,600
And he only justified being so
rude about it in that he calls

334
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,360
himself the run to the litter in
his selection of brothers and

335
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:13,520
sisters.
So, you know, he was the

336
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,120
smallest, you know, he was quite
tall.

337
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,280
So not to be nasty about an
asset, but it had been difficult

338
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,720
in that it's not high strip, but
it's very Hard Rock and it's a

339
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,760
large pit.
There's a big waste moving

340
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,120
exercise to to expose the rest
of the inventory.

341
00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,080
And I think Remilius had pushed
right up against that decision

342
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,920
before the gold price had really
run.

343
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,640
That brought in Tampa, which was
a, you know, quite a troublesome

344
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,120
takeover.
And I and I think that part of

345
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,840
the world just sort of has a bit
of a fence around it.

346
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,480
If everything's a bit prickly
and difficult in terms of how

347
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,920
Remilius has experienced it
would be my guess.

348
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,640
So do you want to reinvigorate
that asset?

349
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,040
Well, maybe because gold prices
moved so significantly since

350
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:55,760
they sort of got to the end of
that road.

351
00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,320
Having looked to sell it, the
people who are in the area and

352
00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,560
there are people with growing
inventories who I think probably

353
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,119
look around and go where are we
going to feed this?

354
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:09,560
Could we deal on that, that
process facility it it, it's

355
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,520
really mixed messages as to
whether or not Remilius is

356
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,000
there.
So I suspect it comes down to a

357
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,240
number, which is probably a bit
too high given the value that

358
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:22,040
Remilius probably sees in it for
others to accept.

359
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,319
And you know, anything that they
might propose might be a bit too

360
00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:27,119
low for Amelius to look at.
So one of those tricky ones

361
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,440
because when, when a project
isn't producing, you know, it's

362
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,920
value is really somewhere
between scrap and, and being

363
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,440
reinvigorated.
And I I suspect that Edna May

364
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,560
has undeniable value given that
there are mindable reserves

365
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,960
there or, you know, mindable
inventory in someone's mind.

366
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,200
There's a bunch of gold under
the plant, you just gotta move

367
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,920
the plant as well.
Yeah, well, you gotta be

368
00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:48,240
careful.
When you move something too

369
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,320
much, it's not a demountable.
It came from big Bell initially

370
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,320
and sat there in the weather for
a very long time.

371
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,280
So I know I think that was
probably some of the teething

372
00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,280
issues that evolution had in the
early days of the asset was

373
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,360
putting something back together.
That was a mechano said it'd

374
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:07,120
been the shed for too long.
So I'm sure it's been, you know,

375
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:10,120
brought up to spec, brought up
to speed, but some of that pain

376
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:11,360
will be flaking off again by
now.

377
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,840
So a reinvigoration of that
could or a movement.

378
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,520
Maybe you're better off saying
what are we best doing in this

379
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:19,920
part of the world?
I mean, there is value in having

380
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,200
a tilings dam and A and a
process facility.

381
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,920
It it may be that something new
would be a little bit more

382
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,320
expensive but last for a lot
longer.

383
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:29,760
But then there's a question of
where does the rest of your

384
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,840
inventory come from.
There's attractive things in the

385
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,040
region you can probably track to
it.

386
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,560
So that's a big decision even
for a Remelius to say, well to

387
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,800
make that work do we need M&A or
can it be done just on what

388
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,640
we've got and you know it's an M
and a decision whichever way you

389
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,840
look at it, it's.
It's sell and walk away,

390
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,240
possibly for a number which
we're not comfortable with, or

391
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,200
it's buy.
Something in order to make it

392
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:52,960
work.
I'm guessing a lot here.

393
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,280
So, you know, don't mean to be
unfair as they'd be there and

394
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,920
what he thinks of the asset.
But you know, I wonder if it's

395
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,360
in that limbo land because it it
probably has been a tough period

396
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:02,160
of time for making decisions
about that one.

397
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:08,200
It's it's a funny time for the
Yeah, like that the ASX gold

398
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,800
universe landscape.
And it feels like, you know,

399
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,640
the, the, the new, the new
emerging cohort of developers.

400
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:21,320
There's this something kind of
like more subscale about their

401
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:22,640
nature than we've seen in the
past.

402
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,080
And maybe you don't need as many
ounces in order to actually have

403
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:26,600
very profitable business these
days.

404
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,640
We need to rethink conceptually
what that means.

405
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:33,000
But but there's a, a limitation
or at least in, in the minds of,

406
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,960
you know, the incumbents who who
maybe aren't even attracted to,

407
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,400
to buying these opportunities
because maybe they don't fit

408
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,480
their scale criteria or whatnot.
Like, you know, if you, if you

409
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,600
look at the, the makers of the
world or the medallions of the

410
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:50,000
world, like who are, who are,
you know, the, the emerging kind

411
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,200
of next tier of gold producers,
current, current and future, do

412
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,360
you think that they're they're
capable of being relevant enough

413
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:01,400
to be acquired themselves?
Yeah, it's an interesting 1,

414
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:02,480
isn't it?
And I think you got to think

415
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,000
about location as much as the
scale that they're at.

416
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,040
And they're both quite different
stories, even though they're

417
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,760
fairly similar sized.
I'd probably add new merchants

418
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,560
into that discussion because,
yeah, and it's, and it's

419
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,440
probably a little bit topical in
that part of the world.

420
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,640
I mean new merchants and has
generated really strong cash,

421
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,720
yeah.
West Gold must be kicking

422
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,880
themselves.
Well, can we come back to that?

423
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,040
They they parade.
They parade it like, but yeah, I

424
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,600
do.
I do think that the opportunity

425
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:29,880
cost is what no one talks about.
Yeah.

426
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,080
They could have bought it.
Yeah, Yeah.

427
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:34,240
They could have, but I mean,
West Gold has been selling Oz,

428
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,120
which are, yeah, surface mining
things.

429
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:39,520
And they've got agreements tied
to them that they make money off

430
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,560
the processing.
So it's kind of like a well,

431
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,800
we've eliminated every single
bit of downside on those

432
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,200
answers.
They're not going to anyone

433
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,760
else.
Yeah, We know we'll make this

434
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:49,720
much margin when they come back
to our mill.

435
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:52,680
Well, a new merchant was
different than that.

436
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,880
They never sold those answers,
but I mean my my thought.

437
00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,280
Was a company like a new
merchant doesn't own a mill, has

438
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,320
had a market cap which was quite
phenomenal.

439
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,240
Come back a bit now, but it's
still considerable.

440
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,760
And you compare that to some of
the development class of

441
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,520
companies which are talking
about having, you know, 2

442
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,160
million oz reserves at some
stage and new merchants probably

443
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,680
got the cash flow to make a
meaningful difference to to the

444
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,600
size and scale of what could be
developed there.

445
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,240
I mean, you could, you could
sort of say, well, their oyster

446
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,960
is most of the development class
if they, if they chose to, to

447
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,520
have a look at it and who knows
what's on.

448
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,960
Their mind, but I mean Maker as
well as a producer and before

449
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,280
the gold price started to waiver
was sitting there, it was at

450
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:43,720
like 650 mil market cap with an
operating team with an operating

451
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,680
mine.
So how would they consolidate?

452
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,400
And I, I suspect that either you
do it in the district with

453
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,080
things which are immediately
going to feed your mill and it's

454
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,320
not a large facility, so you
don't need to buy much to

455
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:02,240
extrapolate your mine life.
Given that that hadn't happened.

456
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,440
Doesn't mean they weren't
working on it, but you know,

457
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,160
they hadn't got to it.
I, I suspect they probably had a

458
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,640
similar opportunity, maybe not
quite so large scale as new

459
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,560
merchants and but to, to be
thinking about, could you

460
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,520
actually deal up in terms of
asset quality?

461
00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:17,920
The risk attached is that it's
undeveloped, but you know, we

462
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,760
might be able to solve some of
the financing risk there.

463
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,680
And when I think about that from
a same medallion perspective,

464
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,680
they're not sitting in the
Murchison, which is already

465
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,680
dominated by existing producers.
So having to pinch the scraps

466
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,560
from between them or or go
earlier stage in order to get

467
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:36,440
access to something to bolster
your own plan.

468
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,000
You know they're sitting in the
Forestania area with their their

469
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,640
processing facility.
They're bringing all up from the

470
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,280
South Coast of WA.
And the reason I hesitate is

471
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,760
because in our.
Portfolio.

472
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,160
There's a Ravens Wooden, a
Ravens Thorpe, and every time I

473
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,840
speak it, I get them mixed up.
So it's Ravens Thorpe coming up

474
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,040
from the South Coast.
I mean, they're going to have a

475
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,600
trucking model.
Perhaps they get to a stage

476
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,480
where they go, well, there's
there's actually enough around

477
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,760
Forestania that we could start
thinking about how we process

478
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,120
the stuff on the South Coast
differently.

479
00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:11,360
But you know, as it stands, if
they get into production

480
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:13,760
successfully and doing a great
job so far.

481
00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:17,880
Will they also be rewarded with
a market cap which says this is

482
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,960
just the logical acquirer of a
lot of things in the district

483
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,280
and doesn't I think there's a
lot of opportunity around there.

484
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,280
You mentioned scale before
Travan.

485
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,960
I, I can't think of a time, well
that I can recall anyway, where

486
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,160
someone coming up with 200,000
oz or even dealing on say 150 or

487
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,800
200,000 oz and saying I'm going
to make money out of that

488
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,640
because I'm.
Going to get this mining

489
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,320
contractor to dig it up for me
and I'm going to get this

490
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,880
trucking contractor to take it
over there and then I'm going to

491
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,960
get sell it to that mill owner
and I'm still going to make cash

492
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,120
flow out of it.
It's the gold price which has

493
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:54,600
enabled that and it's the mill
owners lack of inventory that

494
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,720
can be brought forward quickly
which has enabled that.

495
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,040
And so it's, you know, it's a
first.

496
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:00,720
Is that a long term business
model?

497
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,320
Well, I think we've seen how
hard it is.

498
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,600
There's a number of stories that
have shown that, you know, you

499
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,680
can lose gold, you can leaked
margin quite excessively through

500
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,080
doing it.
And there's others which have

501
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,520
been successful.
I mean, you've got to take your

502
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,040
hat off to the new merchants and
situation where that has enabled

503
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,400
them to say, well, that might
have been a, a, a, a way, which

504
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,280
wasn't historically the the most
glorious way to do it, but it's

505
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:24,880
generated cash flow, heaps of
it.

506
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,920
And now we're, you know, we can
take on other things and, and

507
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,480
diversify from there if we
choose to.

508
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,520
So I that, that has been a
fascinating way that the gold

509
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,280
market has evolved.
So what does that mean in terms

510
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,880
of development of new assets?
I mean, it's also probably

511
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,960
moving into a new paradigm for
financing, right?

512
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,480
10 years ago you'd go straight
to the Australian commercial.

513
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:52,120
Banks, I think their appetite
for financing gold in Australia

514
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:54,520
has been tempered by a number of
the deals which they've made,

515
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,600
which is soured and whether
that's the assets.

516
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,840
Fault or the hedge books fault
you know, there's been varying

517
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,160
contributors, but we can see
appetite from.

518
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,200
Streaming companies, royalty
companies, there's been some big

519
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,320
notable deals in Australia and
whether the Australian market

520
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,760
lunges towards that, it's
undeniably a competitor in the

521
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,960
financing space, which you know
adds a a great deal of

522
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,240
competitiveness.
And in fact, I mean, we've seen

523
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,920
bond financing come into the
space as well, which I think

524
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,600
it's fascinating for a
development stage company, so.

525
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:27,800
Trav, I've got a quick one for
you.

526
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,360
You know, in the mining space,
getting the rock out of the

527
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:33,800
ground is one thing, but getting
the best price for your product

528
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,560
is a whole another thing.
And the awesome team at Metals

529
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,880
Hub are solving this problem, be
it the lithium space, the

530
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,320
tungsten space, the cobalt
space, you name it.

531
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,800
A lot of people flying blind out
there and Metals Hub is

532
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,200
addressing that.
Well, it's because those like

533
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,000
these niche commodities like
what, what even is the real

534
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,120
number?
What is the real index?

535
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:53,280
And producers are, are selling
because there's ambiguity.

536
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,400
They're not getting, you know,
the full margin they can for

537
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,640
their product.
Metals hub changes that mate.

538
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,080
And it completely makes sense
why And you're already seeing

539
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:02,720
some of the big guys move
forward and adopting it.

540
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,640
Think of line down Albemarle
SQM.

541
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,520
They're moving their sales
towards the Metals Hub platform.

542
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,120
It's true and we know people in
the mining space, they don't

543
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:12,480
want to be the first mover, so
you can have confidence with a

544
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,080
lot of other players doing it
already, not just the lithium

545
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,160
giants.
You're seeing it across

546
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,840
different commodities, like I
mentioned in the graphite space.

547
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,280
You can take Northern Graphite
as an example as well.

548
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,640
They're jumping on Metals Hub,
they're running structured

549
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,320
bidding events, and effectively
they're running a digital

550
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,520
auction to get the best price
for their product.

551
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,880
Auctions maximise the outcomes.
I learned that one in economics

552
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,760
removes the guesswork, JD.
So stop leaving money on the

553
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,320
table.
Start trading with the same

554
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,720
sophistication as these guys.
You've got to be on the

555
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,720
platform.
You can check out a master class

556
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,800
on their platform done with the
team at Lyontown as well at

557
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,520
metalshub.com/money of mine.
The financing landscape is ever

558
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,280
evolving.
It's it's always changing.

559
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,480
It always has been that way.
Another interesting one is MGX

560
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,040
and and Tanami.
What they've done in slightly

561
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,400
different part of the world up
in the NT and interesting with

562
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,640
MGX bringing a big balance sheet
to to the table.

563
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,520
Came to hear what your thoughts
are on on how that kind of

564
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,880
progress is because to the point
of of scale that could be pretty

565
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,920
decent scale but it come online
smoothly.

566
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,640
Yeah, well, I think, I mean,
Tanamil has been one of those

567
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,520
ones which people have been
sitting there wondering about

568
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,320
for a long time.
Sort of dominated by a little

569
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,600
company and had various
companies deal in.

570
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,760
I can remember a presentation
long, long time ago at Diggers

571
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,000
and Dealers now where Peter?
Cook got up to speak and he'd

572
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,160
just been stiffed on a deal in
the Tanami by Northern Star,

573
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,080
who'd sort of trumped.
Maybe not by too much, but.

574
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,680
His expression and hats off to
Cookie because he has a, a long

575
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,320
list of marvellous expressions.
And I, I wrote this one down at

576
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,440
the time and he just said, we'll
let sunshine be the disinfectant

577
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,880
on that one.
I've got no idea what that was

578
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,440
intended to mean, but it was
extremely memorable to hear him

579
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,480
sort of say that quite, I don't
know that bitterly, but you

580
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,520
know, in the way that Cookie's
capable of saying, let's just,

581
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,360
you know, we'll, we'll just
remember that forever, won't we?

582
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,600
So it's, it's an asset, which is
obviously got some appeal

583
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,880
because it had had the West gold
of the day with Cookie at the

584
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,200
helm and Northern Star of the
day with Bill Bayman at the helm

585
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,440
looking at it.
And, and now you've got Matt

586
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,400
Gibson in there Who?
I think for a long while had

587
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,800
been generating a cash.
Pile from a, you know, a

588
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,080
difficult iron ore asset which
they've made a fist of and

589
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,400
determined to move into base or
precious metals at their own

590
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,000
declaration.
They've, you know, they've put a

591
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,000
few chips on the table.
So I'd say they've looked at a

592
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,320
lot of things.
I think there's probably an

593
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,920
allure of gold for them as well.
It's a unusual company in the

594
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,160
way that it's owned and probably
some of the influences come

595
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,960
through pretty strongly there
for the strategic nature of

596
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,680
being able to produce gold.
So I dare say that's that could

597
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:53,720
have a bit to do with it as
well.

598
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,360
But strikes me as a company
which definitely brings

599
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,200
operating capability.
They're quietly confident about

600
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:04,000
about that and you know, they've
got financing capability to be

601
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,320
able to be patient and
persistent with an asset which

602
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,880
is probably confounded a few
others over the journey and I

603
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,200
think it probably does require
some some patients so.

604
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,360
There's some refractory answers
there, some oxide lungs too, but

605
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:18,840
lots of refractory answers
there.

606
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,200
The theme of refractory answers
being being cool again.

607
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,000
Is is, is it's back.
It's maybe it's a bull market

608
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,480
thing, but it's back that, you
know, there's there's no answers

609
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,120
that are, yeah, completely
untouchable anymore.

610
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,120
You know, Roxy's marching ahead
and they they've got a

611
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,760
formidable inventory.
There's no denying it.

612
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:45,240
But, but, but, you know, the
inventory requires some

613
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,360
alternative processing that you
don't always see.

614
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,040
And they're not the only ones.
There's, you know, this is, this

615
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,680
is, this is, this is the new,
the new era.

616
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,080
Yep, Yep.
Are you more open minded about

617
00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:00,440
refractory deposits yourself?
When we assess the risk of a

618
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:05,560
project, we work right through
can you?

619
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,760
Can you create a product?
Can you make a product?

620
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,600
As in can you separate the
interesting thing from the rock

621
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,280
and can you sell the product?
So, and there's a there's a big

622
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,400
difference between just having a
product and being able to sell

623
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,800
it.
So and I think in the refractory

624
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,720
space that has moved
considerably over time the

625
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,520
threshold of what you can, what
you can capably sell because.

626
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,840
For a lot of refractory
projects, the approach has been

627
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,320
to use flotation to to float a
sulfide.

628
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,000
It's often rich in arsenic,
which makes it difficult to

629
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:40,000
transport, difficult to sell.
You can blend that, but you

630
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,720
know, if you need, if you need
to be susceptible to blending,

631
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,560
you need someone else's product,
which means you caught the

632
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:45,680
discount, they caught the
premium.

633
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,720
So I think that has always been
a bit of a challenge that I get

634
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,360
the impression that appetite for
refractory sulfide concentrates

635
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,920
is is pretty reasonable and
that's probably driven by the

636
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:02,240
gold price more than anything.
But the ability to transport it

637
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,240
to people who can smelt it and
refine it is still, you know the

638
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,920
thing.
So we we still are a little bit

639
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,800
circumspect on looking at
refractory projects and it's

640
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,200
you've got to separate yourself
as well and the kind of investor

641
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:17,400
you are.
If you're the kind of investor

642
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,480
and this is what we are that we
would invest and, and our base

643
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,400
case expectation is that we will
still be there when they move

644
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:25,800
into production.
And hopefully you get the

645
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,200
rewriting and through the DE
risking to that point, there's

646
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,920
an alternative, which is that
you say, well, this has got a

647
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,440
really nice promotable story.
It's got a strong promoter

648
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,320
upfront and that's a good reason
to invest.

649
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,040
But then you're needing to pick
your exit point with a little

650
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,520
bit of market timing and other
things.

651
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,240
And we've, we've always found
that difficult to do.

652
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,200
I mean, it's easy to look back
at something and say, well, when

653
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,000
Rox's management changed and the
the story promotion changed a

654
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,400
bit and they, they basically
just said, right, we're DE.

655
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,800
Watering, we're going into this.
We're financed and we're going.

656
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:02,280
The stock responded positively,
but that doesn't they risk it it

657
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,320
it would have been a good trade.
The question mark still in my

658
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,840
mind is how's it going to look?
What are the problems going to

659
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,680
be, What are the challenges
going to be and there are always

660
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,840
problems and challenges
developing a new gold mine.

661
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,880
It's not a rock specific thing.
It's something that we've got a

662
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,040
little bit less confidence on is
refractory now good technical

663
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,160
people and sufficient balance
sheet can probably get to the

664
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,360
point where any of those
challenges have a little bit

665
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,800
less of an effect on share
price.

666
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,640
So, you know, I, I wish them the
best and I, I really salute the

667
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,320
way that they're going about it.
But we, we look at a lot of

668
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,120
refractory things and sort of
have that, that concern.

669
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,040
And I, I suppose as well, when
you're talking about risk in a

670
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,880
project, if you turn on a, a
gold mill.

671
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,560
And I remember Peter Bamford,
who was the engineer that

672
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,320
originally sat across the
development of Andy Well and a

673
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,760
doorway.
And I said to him, how long is

674
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,360
it going to take you to
Commission the plant?

675
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,880
Like from the point where you
you're confident that everything

676
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,920
works.
So then you put in gold bearing

677
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,760
material.
How long does it take you to get

678
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,640
a gold bar out?
And he said three days.

679
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,680
I think it took a little bit
longer than three days, but you

680
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,960
know, there is not a long
residence time.

681
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,200
So from the point where you take
a ton of ore out of the ground

682
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,600
and bring it to the surface and
crush it, put it in the process

683
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,920
facility, it doesn't take you
long to turn that into a very

684
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,240
marketable product.
And you know, we've said before

685
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,160
that you could take gold out
onto Collins Street and sell it

686
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:26,960
probably gold dust better than
gold bars.

687
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,960
I mean, I don't know how you get
liquidity for that on Collins

688
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,320
Street, but a concentrate?
Is a completely different

689
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,880
marketing situation.
So, you know, it is something

690
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,080
that's going to have an upfront
payment maybe when a truck goes

691
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,320
out of gate and then there's
going to be.

692
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,200
A rectification that takes place
trailing payment, perhaps

693
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,120
adjustment for price along the
way, maybe three months later.

694
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,920
So you know that always comes
into our working capital

695
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,520
concerns with a refractory
project because it means you

696
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,880
need to set it up.
Much more like a base metals

697
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,200
mine than than like a precious
metals mine.

698
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,920
So I suppose that that enters
our thinking as well.

699
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,320
So presented with something
which is a copper project versus

700
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,920
a refractory gold project, I
suspect we'd probably lean

701
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:09,920
towards.
The Copper project.

702
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,000
Working capital the the scourge
of the the mining company that

703
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,440
nobody ever gives gives enough
credit to.

704
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,080
Well, no one sees it until you
fall flat on your face, so.

705
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:20,719
Yeah.
Yeah, Silent killer.

706
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,719
What are you most excited about
in the in the exploration end of

707
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:24,280
town right now?
Oh.

708
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,520
Wow.
We got a couple of things under

709
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,840
our belt in exploration that are
quite early stage and there's

710
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,280
and then there's I suppose a
couple of others in our

711
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,040
portfolio which are also
exploring and it's.

712
00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:43,199
I'm sorry I.
Always tend to talk my book with

713
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:45,520
those kinds of questions because
it's just I know them far

714
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,040
better.
And you know, the reason we're

715
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,040
excited is because we're owners
as well.

716
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,679
So I suppose from our portfolio
we're we're invested in quite a

717
00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:55,199
lot.
We've got quite a large

718
00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:58,040
percentage holding in an
unlisted company which is an

719
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,160
exploration company as called
Platonic.

720
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:06,440
That company has conceived an
idea of a new district which has

721
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,960
been unrecognised and it's
basically formed by younger

722
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,000
eastern Australia being pushed
under the older Western Rocks,

723
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,600
and this happens very close, in
this case to the NT of

724
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,080
Queensland border the Rocks.
At the surface are just.

725
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,360
Boring sediments, but there are
quartz vines sticking out which

726
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,600
have small amounts of copper and
gold in them.

727
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,320
And they shouldn't be there.
They shouldn't be in the Georgia

728
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,360
Basin.
So what does that all mean?

729
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,040
We're going to drill six holes
this year and and hope to find

730
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,120
out.
So the reason I'm excited about

731
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,560
that is whilst it's incredibly
risky, it is absolute frontier

732
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,320
stuff as far as exploration
goes.

733
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,920
If there is gold and or copper
that comes out of a diamond

734
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,680
drill hole in that desert in
this year, then it puts a new

735
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,640
district on a map.
And that, you know, as far as

736
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,440
I've never been too much of an
exploration pure Puritan as in,

737
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,480
you know, we've, we've got to
spend as much money as we can in

738
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,600
order to kill these projects and
we'll definitely find something.

739
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,760
It's I don't want to see
anything wasted and I don't want

740
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,200
to be drilling holes just to
just to kill a project.

741
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,040
This has got great fundamentals
to it for the stage it's at and

742
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,520
the outcome is huge.
So we're not looking for 50,000

743
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:17,760
oz out there.
We're looking for a new

744
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:19,120
district.
And if there's a new district

745
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:20,680
then it could have multi
deposits in.

746
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,720
So that's one, probably two
others in our portfolio and a

747
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:29,040
bit bit quicker about them.
Sunshine Metals is something

748
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,920
which we've been involved in for
a few years now, back then when

749
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,160
they bought a almost complete
base metals resource.

750
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,800
And what they've done is made
really sensible additions in the

751
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,720
Charters Towers region.
Charters Towers is a prolific

752
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,480
metals district, gold and base
metals.

753
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,440
And I think if you mentioned
Charters Towers in Perth, people

754
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,760
would probably wonder which part
of the gold fields it was in and

755
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,280
they just think about the wrong
gold fields, right.

756
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,400
So it's up near Townsville, it's
got.

757
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,880
A famous history in its own
right as well.

758
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,760
Yeah, there's some fascinating
stories from that part of the

759
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,440
world and Sunshine has done a
great job of pulling together

760
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,640
some, I mean really interesting
things there.

761
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,520
So they have a base metals
largely resource at Lyontown.

762
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:14,240
It's got a very distinct gold
only portion and they went

763
00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:17,680
looking for a place they could
tolerate it and some maybe other

764
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:19,600
surface resources.
In doing that, they found a

765
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,160
thing called Sybil, which looks
a lot like Pijingo, someone on

766
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,600
hot copper branded at Cha Chingo
because in buying something for

767
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,880
$125,000, it added about 50
million bucks to the market cap.

768
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,520
And that looks, I mean, that's
an incredibly exciting project,

769
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,040
but it now sits within a an
almost producer.

770
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,600
Then they're marching towards
small scale production from

771
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,160
their their gold on design.
But you got being the first

772
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,120
asset for evolution for those,
correct?

773
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,280
Yeah, and just even buy the
front end of the plant pretty

774
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,120
recently.
Matt Moss, which is right next

775
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:53,320
to Sybil slash Chachingo
deciding whether you take the

776
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,000
nickname or the real name.
Yeah.

777
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,880
So there's a bit of tracking
involved, but and and it's a

778
00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,160
small scale start up.
So.

779
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,240
But the interesting thing is you
dig a little bit of gold out of

780
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:06,160
the ground at Lyon Town and in
doing so, you leave an open pit,

781
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,320
a portal, underground access and
you've mined an underground

782
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,160
panel.
And that's right next to the

783
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,080
rest of the VMS resource, which
is about 6 1/2 or 7 million

784
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,760
tonnes.
So they'd, they'd have a

785
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,440
capitalized underground mine.
So whatever it costs you to get

786
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,680
underground, is it, you know, 30
million bucks to do all of that

787
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,880
and establish a site that's
done.

788
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,560
So if you then wanted to finance
the, the zinc, copper gold mine,

789
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:31,760
you can take that out of the
CapEx.

790
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,080
They would also then have a, a
processing footprint.

791
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,360
And you, let's say it takes them
three or four years to get to

792
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,960
the point of saying this is what
we'll do with the VMS. Do you

793
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,800
develop a process plant next to
it?

794
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,320
You've got time to permit that
if you want it.

795
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,680
You've also got the option to be
tracking to mount Moss, which

796
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,640
interestingly he has.
I mean there's 4% copper and

797
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,320
eight or 10% zinc kits on that
license.

798
00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,200
So the thing that's always
intrigued me about Damien Keys

799
00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:03,240
and his team is that they have
been really, really good at

800
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:08,000
taking reasonably data rich
projects and pulling it apart

801
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,880
and putting it back together.
And often it just looks so much

802
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,200
better when they followed the
instructions to to to rebuild

803
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,560
what's in the data set.
So he was he was one of the GOSI

804
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,960
don't know who was that GOII say
it was Damian.

805
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,120
There was probably others
involved that did the same thing

806
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,280
at penny W, which ended up
getting sold to Remilius would

807
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,360
have been worth fortune now, but
it sold for fortune compared to

808
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,360
where it started and and what
was invested in it.

809
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,040
So I got a lot of time for the
team there and I think their

810
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,760
geological capabilities pretty
special.

811
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,080
And yeah, look, so I'm very
excited about Sybil as that part

812
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,240
of the that project.
It's unusual that you see a

813
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,840
company which is on a
development trajectory and also

814
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,000
has a, you know, could you
double the value of a producer

815
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,720
by discovering something?
There's not many that I can

816
00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:56,560
think of.
So Sunshine might be one that

817
00:39:56,720 --> 00:39:59,640
that fits that bill.
And the last one I'd mention is

818
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,560
Canonbury, which is in New South
Wales.

819
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,240
It's been quite quiet, but you
know, we we continue to sort of

820
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:08,720
prod and.
Talk to the management and you

821
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:11,280
know, they have a portfolio
across NSW which was

822
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,760
painstakingly pulled together.
It's like 3 or 4 companies in

823
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,800
one.
The issue really is you've got

824
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:20,640
all these opportunities, what
are you going to do in terms of

825
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,360
working on it?
So I think they've, I think

826
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,200
they've got to the point where
they've done enough to get their

827
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,480
heads around all of that and I'm
looking forward to what that

828
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,480
means in 2026.
So then the fascinating thing I

829
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,920
suppose about all of that is
Platonic very early stage they

830
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,760
got to acquire all their own
data themselves.

831
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,280
Canterbury sits off the back of
a lot of work which has happened

832
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:42,840
in New South Wales.
They don't have to establish a

833
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,680
tectonic model.
They're just, they're just there

834
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,240
done great grand acquisition and
and sunshine.

835
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:50,920
It's more about using all this
old data, pulling it apart and

836
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,720
reinterpreting and then coming
up with the prize at the end,

837
00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:55,600
hopefully.
So they're three very different

838
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,120
scenarios, but, you know,
equally exciting along the way.

839
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,280
Can I, can I ask you just just
going to Charles Towers?

840
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,520
It's a reason I don't understand
very well, but I just remember

841
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:12,480
being so intrigued at City Gold.
What is the story there like?

842
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,520
That resource can't be real.
Well, I've never done due

843
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,440
diligence on City Gold to the
extent that you can pull it

844
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:22,720
apart and put it back together
again.

845
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:26,480
But yeah, like it's an awful lot
of answers that are very high

846
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,720
grade that doesn't seem to have
gone anywhere.

847
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,160
Is it directly under the town?
Like, I mean, they come out, but

848
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,560
it's not like a real, I mean,
that joke has got to be a joke.

849
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,600
Well.
He's gonna have a probable.

850
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,000
A probable.
Like I I would I could give you

851
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,400
a very different answer if we'd
been sitting around a campfire

852
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,600
having beers for three hours.
This answer needs to be 1, which

853
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,080
is publicly appropriate.
I mean, I mean the market.

854
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:52,680
Take the cork out, just smash
the top the.

855
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:54,960
Market thinks it's a joke for
the market cap that keeps, you

856
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,360
know, that's the yeah.
Well, look, there's a couple of

857
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,760
things I'd probably say.
First of all, the licences that

858
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,200
they have I think are undeniably
mineralised.

859
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,960
There is a, I've stood not at
the portal, but I've stood at

860
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,520
the fence looking through the
gate to the portal and it's, you

861
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:13,920
know, it's been there for a very
long time.

862
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,360
So there's been, there's been
material mined there for a very

863
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,040
long time.
They own all the ground there.

864
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,240
So big tick, the drilling that's
been done.

865
00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:25,640
There's some quite deep
drilling.

866
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,520
I think it shows that the system
persists the modelling, and

867
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,080
modelling is always something
where, you know, geologists will

868
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,280
give you an answer that's, you
know, variable.

869
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,680
My answer, if I was to model
that, would probably be a lot

870
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,680
more conservative than the
answer that they're giving.

871
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,480
But whatever you think of it,
you know, there are joke

872
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:47,640
requirements.
They're overseen by regulators

873
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,920
and the regulators don't seem to
have come up with too many

874
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,480
complaints.
So if anyone wanted to peel the

875
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,200
top of that can, I'm sure
there'd be number of worms that

876
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:58,880
had come out.
But, you know, until someone

877
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:00,600
does, I suppose we'll wait to
find out.

878
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,240
I got to tell you though, I
mean, I would, I would love to

879
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:07,040
see an aggressive exploration
budget applied to that.

880
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,960
I think if there was an
opportunity to do that in a

881
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,520
complete reset and you know,
bring in, bring it to a

882
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,880
situation that is capable of
applying a very serious balance

883
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,640
sheet to it, I'd be very
enthusiastic to see what would

884
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:22,960
happen there.
Yeah.

885
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,720
So, so these, these pijingo you
analogue type of deposits that

886
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:28,440
they're epithermal deposits,
right.

887
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,320
Yep.
So City Gold not.

888
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,560
City Gold not OK.
And the the the other one that's

889
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:39,400
kind of just got a renewed lick
of paint is GBZ Resources.

890
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,480
Have you been following that?
That one, Yeah.

891
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,080
Yeah.
Well, that's that's epithermal

892
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,120
mineralization and the.
Twin Hills that.

893
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,560
Yeah, yeah.
And there's another project as

894
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:50,640
well.
Yeah, yeah.

895
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:55,200
So for a very long time, and I
think I mean, we looked at that

896
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,240
project, that set of projects
ages and ages and ages ago, it

897
00:43:59,240 --> 00:44:02,240
was one of those situations
where you go, well, that looks

898
00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:06,880
geologically interesting, but
I'm just not getting LED to

899
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:11,200
water as the horse wants to be.
And, and I think, you know,

900
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,880
whenever you assess a company
and you might have a fairly

901
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,760
strong technical view that's
positive, but you asked the

902
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,600
question of the last few times
that this team has tried to

903
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,160
raise money, it just hasn't
worked.

904
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,640
So how is how is getting
invested now going to going to

905
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,240
see a different future?
It's plenty of good projects

906
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:29,760
inside of structures which don't
work for them and and people

907
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,560
often sit as the filter there
and they could be very good

908
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,600
technical people, but just have
not managed to raise money and

909
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,920
it's a lot easier to raise money
in a market which is buoyant as

910
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:42,200
well.
So you know, the first time

911
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,080
around for that company, I think
it probably had a couple of

912
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,200
things that were just holding it
back or not allowing it to float

913
00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:50,560
as as readily.
It's got a great.

914
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,080
Team now who?
I think.

915
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,560
Understand marketing very well
and they've done a great job

916
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:56,480
with that, but they're also
technically strong and they're

917
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,560
bringing all of the technical
elements to light.

918
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,200
They look as if they've done
their own mild reinterpretation.

919
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,280
I mean they haven't had to
change the world, but they they

920
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,440
were able to refinance on the
situation was able to be

921
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:14,520
refinanced such that you removed
a a pretty significant debt

922
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,360
obligation by a con note and
straighten out the whole balance

923
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:19,400
sheet.
So that was just straight

924
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:20,920
equity.
I think there was a lot to like

925
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:22,760
about it at at exactly the right
time.

926
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,280
It had nearly a 10X run after it
did that.

927
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:30,000
Yeah, yeah, I I saw it happen
and thought, Gee, you know,

928
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:33,720
silly me for not thinking you
can put 12 million bucks into

929
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:36,440
something and it just goes 10X
like that.

930
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:37,960
Get.
Rid of the cold night.

931
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:38,760
Yeah.
Yeah.

932
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,200
Well, I mean it, it's, it's
suggests, doesn't it, that if

933
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,720
you have enough of a balance
sheet of your own and you can

934
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:46,240
fix someone else's balance
sheet, you might very well be

935
00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:48,000
able to bring the market to bear
on it.

936
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:51,000
I don't think it's going to be
that easy over and over again,

937
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,520
but you know it.
It suggests that it was probably

938
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,080
held back by its balance sheets.
Yeah, the Apollo group have a

939
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,600
bit of a kick to them as well.
Yeah, they know what they're

940
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,880
doing to jobs.
They give it a definite stamp of

941
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,920
approval, which I think a lot of
people would follow.

942
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:09,360
And I, you know, in this market,
I, we do all our own technical

943
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,600
due diligence.
So we, we don't sort of go, oh,

944
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:12,840
do they like it?
Do they like it?

945
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,680
But there are a lot of investors
around that probably follow that

946
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,560
lead quite strongly and in a
market as when it took place,

947
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,000
you know those investors were
sitting up waiting for something

948
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,760
like that.
And I think I believe the rise

949
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,640
that took place was quite tight.
So you know, there was there was

950
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:32,480
no room for anyone that was any
any any longer than well arm's

951
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,240
length is that I suppose if you
were closer than the elbow you

952
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:37,440
might have been OK.
But anyone outside of that range

953
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,000
just had to buy on market and
there was a huge number of them

954
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:41,240
wanting to do it all at once.
So what?

955
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,040
Are we talking about maybe
unconventional places where,

956
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,040
where there are these, you know,
gold fields that people maybe

957
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,080
overlook?
I've got, I've got two others I

958
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,880
want to ask you about.
First is, is NT a bit of renewed

959
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,240
interest, a bit of activity and
African acquiring MSN after

960
00:46:57,240 --> 00:46:58,800
taking the JV partner before
that?

961
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:05,080
There's still a bit to play out
in that area, namely PC-2 or PC

962
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,400
Gold, the recent IPO as of late
last year.

963
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:11,960
They've got, you know,
formidable inventory themselves.

964
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:16,080
And then you've got AG Nico's
plan, which they inherited from

965
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:18,680
from Kirkland.
They've been reluctant to kind

966
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,920
of part ways with all of that,
kind of to potentially play out

967
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:26,520
and then overlay it.
There's Patronus, I think have

968
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,120
got, yeah, some, some of their
own ground in that area too.

969
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:31,000
Yep, Yep.
PNX medals now.

970
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,600
Is it Patronus?
Yeah, Petronus was PNX.

971
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,960
Well, I look good.
I, I don't know if I can

972
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:39,520
speculate on Petronas's
strategy.

973
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:41,400
Lots of people have tried and
failed.

974
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:48,240
So PC gold is an interesting one
because that was, that was a

975
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:51,480
gold exploration asset that was
held outside the market for a

976
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:56,560
while, pretty strong centralised
leadership.

977
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:01,560
So Ash, you know, his he's a
he's a bust through kind of

978
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,280
manager and I really admire that
about him.

979
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,800
And he'd managed to to push the
money into it in order to

980
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,120
prepare for a good listing that
then happened at the right time.

981
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:15,200
And he was able to come up with
a, a good, you know, trail of

982
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:16,920
news flow to follow it as well.
So million.

983
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:18,800
Ounces.
Yeah, yeah.

984
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,360
Well, I mean, it was an asset
which I think a lot of people

985
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,280
had looked at and gone.
I'm struggling to get the

986
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:27,600
interpretation to work and the
way that something is presented

987
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,280
in a public document can often
leave a lot out.

988
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,880
So, you know, cut off grades
for, you know, how people show

989
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,440
an intersection as here's a
drill hole line and here's the

990
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:38,000
red intersection.
And if all you're trying to do

991
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,840
is join red bits together, it
can often not work.

992
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,520
But if that red bits made it
like a 1G cut off, you know,

993
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,640
where it goes to .1 could be
quite significant.

994
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,560
I'm not saying that that's
exactly what's happened there,

995
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,760
but I think they've done a great
job of database reinvigoration,

996
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,520
straighten everything out, get
your inter right on your own,

997
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,720
and they've done a great job of
aggressively exploring that and

998
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:03,720
then adding dimension to it.
But the other thing, which I

999
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:06,360
think has worked really well for
them and it it's not across the

1000
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:10,880
board with gold companies, but
they recognized that there was a

1001
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,880
a reasonable.
I'm not sure if nugget effect is

1002
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,320
the right word to use here
because that can be a bit of a a

1003
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,400
moniker for gold projects, but
there is the presence of some

1004
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,040
coarse gold within that deposit
and being origenic and vain

1005
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:24,400
hosted, that can often be the
case.

1006
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,520
So going from AI mean if you
drill a hole and if it's if it's

1007
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,920
roughly the diameter of a coffee
cup, what you then do is have

1008
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,720
that if it's diamond core, that
half diamond core goes to the

1009
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:39,680
lab, You crush it and you take a
tiny little aliquot, which is

1010
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:43,000
about 30 grams.
It's 30 grams from something

1011
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,440
which weighed about 5 kilos to
start with.

1012
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,160
And that's what you're trying to
represent that meter of sample

1013
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,880
with.
If you can do that with a much

1014
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:56,200
bigger portion of the sample and
this, this new Crysis

1015
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,960
technology, it enables a much
bigger sample to go in.

1016
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,040
They've been able to achieve
higher grades across a number of

1017
00:50:05,240 --> 00:50:07,280
the intersections there.
So I, I think they're actually

1018
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,520
anticipating that they're going
to be able to demonstrate a

1019
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,000
higher grade, whether that's
across the whole deposit or just

1020
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:13,760
parts of it.
But certainly the effect of that

1021
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,640
course gold's been interesting.
The thing that strikes me about

1022
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:22,040
the NT is it's a big, big, wide
open area, very, very lowly

1023
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,320
populated in terms of, you know,
overall head of population.

1024
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,280
It has some fascinating
instances of mineralization and

1025
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,920
it has some world class scale to
it.

1026
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,440
It doesn't have a lot of minds,
but you know, you wouldn't say

1027
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,600
that It's got a long tail of
little shitty operations and

1028
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,400
then a few OK ones and then one
massive 1.

1029
00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:46,960
It's much more like that long
tail has just been forgotten.

1030
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,360
And it's it's pretty, pretty
interesting things.

1031
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,160
So when something pops up there,
it's fascinating.

1032
00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:54,360
Agnico is an interesting crowd
though, right?

1033
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:59,040
So I reckon if you were to
confront Ash and say, mate, how,

1034
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,640
how do you reckon you're going
to go about processing all of

1035
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,400
this?
I, I think his eyes would light

1036
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,040
up at the thought of being able
to get access to the Agnico

1037
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:10,160
facility.
Agnico is a company which, you

1038
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:14,640
know, they're absolutely flying.
They've done really well from

1039
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,040
acquiring things.
I don't know what they thought

1040
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:18,600
they were getting when they
acquired Kirkland.

1041
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,680
I'm pretty sure they're after
the Detour project in Canada and

1042
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,400
not necessarily Fosterville, but
they got Foster Ville as part of

1043
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,960
it and we probably understand
that quite well in Australia.

1044
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,200
Short mind life, very high
grade.

1045
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,800
It's probably the way they
looked at it and you know,

1046
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:34,920
that's turned out to be the
case.

1047
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:39,280
But then I also got the NT
assets and it's all, what do you

1048
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,840
do with that to be a good
corporate citizen?

1049
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,800
They started rehabbing and there
were some pretty serious, I

1050
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,480
think surface liabilities that
existed there, some pretty murky

1051
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:50,880
looking water.
They've done a great job of

1052
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,080
coming over the top of that.
But then how do you sell an

1053
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,800
asset that you've invested 150
million bucks or whatever the

1054
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,600
number is of rehab?
How do you get rid of that?

1055
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:00,480
And do you turn it over to a
junior?

1056
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:04,080
So I've heard people say agnico
slow to make decisions.

1057
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:06,520
I reckon I'd be pretty slow on
that decision as well.

1058
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:11,280
But you know, what if, if Ash
only had half a million oz, I'd

1059
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,040
say, well, you know, might have
to wait a while.

1060
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,520
That's building into a an amount
of answers which might start to

1061
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,520
help to convince the vendor of a
big process plant that that it's

1062
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:22,440
worth doing.
They tend they tend to retain

1063
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,160
optionality as well, like Nico
like that.

1064
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,000
You don't see them selling very
much.

1065
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:30,840
Yep, In fact, ever they they
don't need to sell and they

1066
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,120
retain that optionality for as
long as possible, Albeit, you

1067
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,600
know, if you speak to PC gold
out, you know, they'll, they'll

1068
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,520
be pretty buoyant about the
prospects of of getting hold of

1069
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,360
that meal, I'm sure.
So who knows which way it goes

1070
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:43,600
there?
I think long term the logic

1071
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,280
makes a lot of sense.
If there was an inventory there

1072
00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:51,000
attached to that process plant
that was only sensitive to gold

1073
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,240
price, then I'd say, yeah, I can
see where the twiddle is and I

1074
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:55,880
can see what the challenge might
be for Agnico.

1075
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,080
I think challenge more is that
they've partially rehabilitated

1076
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,760
just to you know, draw a line
through liabilities, good move

1077
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,200
or responsible move.
The inventory there I think is

1078
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,840
quite tricky.
There is a, you know, an

1079
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:14,000
estimation issue which would
require a lot more drilling to

1080
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,960
be able to say that's going to
work if we ever decide to make

1081
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:18,800
it work.
The fact that they've left the

1082
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,440
process plant standing suggests
that they see that optionality,

1083
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,440
but I'm not sure that it's
something that it's just as easy

1084
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:27,680
to say, we'll wait until that
inventory is economic that will

1085
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,280
mine it.
So I think, you know, that logic

1086
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,040
probably leads you towards the
the conclusion of, well, if

1087
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,880
there's someone else that this
can be bulked together with and

1088
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,920
EG Nico can benefit as a
shareholder, I think that's the

1089
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:40,240
kind of thing that they could
understand.

1090
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:44,960
You mentioned Fosserville, the
other unconventional, well, not

1091
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,240
unconventional, but the other
gold, gold field I do want to

1092
00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:48,960
ask you about.
I mean, we're in, we're in

1093
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,280
Melbourne.
It'd be, it'd be, it'd be

1094
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:53,400
foolish of me not to ask you
about.

1095
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,200
I'm looking at Southern Cross
gold and they're going to market

1096
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,920
cap like $2.8 billion.
That's that is remarkable for an

1097
00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:01,920
undeveloped gold project
anywhere.

1098
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,200
I'm just, I'm just not familiar
with the the asset, not not

1099
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,240
familiar with the project, but I
look at that market cap and

1100
00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:10,360
there's a lot of value that
needs to be backfield to

1101
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,520
eventually eventuate into
something that's worthy of that

1102
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:14,000
kind of market cap.
Well.

1103
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,120
Is it there we could, we could
go for a look.

1104
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:17,680
I mean, we could get in a car.
And we'd be.

1105
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:19,480
We'd be back for your 2:30
appointment.

1106
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,200
It's it's not far from the Hume
Hwy.

1107
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:28,160
You drive up to Kilmore and Mike
Hudson is, he's a fourth

1108
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:32,760
generation Kilmore boy.
I've mistakenly introduced him

1109
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,120
to someone as the Pope of
Kilmore, which was a very

1110
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,200
insensitive thing to say to
someone who is staunchly

1111
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:41,600
Protestant.
But silly me, Mike.

1112
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:47,280
Mike's done a fantastic job of
investing in drilling, bringing

1113
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,160
investors along for the ride.
And I mean, they do a fantastic

1114
00:54:50,160 --> 00:54:52,480
site visit as well.
So they, you know, they really

1115
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:56,360
help people with their
understanding and I suppose the

1116
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,760
the case to value in that
project and being undeveloped,

1117
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,520
you you need to make a
speculative.

1118
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,040
Leap of faith.
With any undeveloped project,

1119
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,720
and I guess I'd, I'd quote my
father here in terms of a caveat

1120
00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:11,040
at the start that the market
will pay a lot more for

1121
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,160
something it doesn't understand
than something that it does.

1122
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,200
And it's a lot easier to
understand a mind that's making

1123
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:16,800
cash than one that's
undeveloped.

1124
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:21,880
So I think the key to value with
that project is going to be

1125
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:27,240
monetizing gold and antimony.
And that's easier said than

1126
00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:30,480
done.
But with a big, big market cap,

1127
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,120
you have a presence, you give
yourself a far better chance

1128
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,280
because you can fund so many
more things.

1129
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:41,400
Mining geometries is something
which I think is they're going

1130
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,920
to get their grips around
because they are going

1131
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,000
underground or so they're
they're putting in a decline.

1132
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:47,440
They've brought on a chief
operating officer.

1133
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,280
So they're getting mining
engineers over the fence there

1134
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:52,840
to to help them to understand
it.

1135
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,360
I think one of the things which
probably a lot of Australians

1136
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,040
struggle with with that story is
that they've taken much more of

1137
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,000
what you'd probably call the
North American or the Canadian

1138
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,000
approach, which is just keep
drilling.

1139
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,680
And there's been some very, very
successful stories in the

1140
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:07,680
Canadian market.
There's one called Great Bear,

1141
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:11,760
sold for billions of dollars.
Yeah, recently.

1142
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:13,840
And it was Kin Ross.
Serious amount of answers.

1143
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:14,760
Yeah.
To Kin Ross.

1144
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,040
Kin Ross is putting their own
assessment in place.

1145
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:19,480
But that was sold without a
resource.

1146
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,840
And I think Southern Cross has
been very good at attracting

1147
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:26,560
shareholders to it.
An expiration target, but not

1148
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:28,920
resource.
Well, by by demonstrating that

1149
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,760
you can continue to generate
high grade results, I think

1150
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:36,240
that's what's led to it.
And you know what, it's easy, I

1151
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:40,960
think in this space to say on my
assessment, the value equation

1152
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:42,520
there doesn't work.
And I'm not saying that about

1153
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:43,840
something.
That many times have been wrong

1154
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:45,720
many times.
And, and this is the thing,

1155
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:50,360
right?
Something like a well, we saw

1156
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:56,800
serious with Nova Bollinger and
Sandfire with Degrusa when they

1157
00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:01,400
made those discoveries and you
know, unambiguously valuable ore

1158
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:02,440
bodies.
And we can say that with the

1159
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:05,120
benefit of hindsight.
So not going to put put my foot

1160
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:07,720
in any potholes here.
Those guys could raise money

1161
00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:09,360
hand over fist.
They got their equity away

1162
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:13,560
before they got the debt and
they they both did fantastic

1163
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,360
jobs of just lunging into the
market opportunities that were

1164
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:18,440
thrown at them.
And because their market cap

1165
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,040
went up so quickly, it took the
risk of financing out of

1166
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,080
everybody's minds.
And it just made it so easy for.

1167
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:29,000
That's probably a bit flippant
for bankers to look at it and

1168
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,240
go, well, you know, we could
agree to our debt, but are we

1169
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:34,320
just going to be a lever for
them to then go and raise their

1170
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:36,640
equity?
And if if you've got 150 million

1171
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:38,760
bucks in the bank, which I think
Sand Farm might have at the time

1172
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:42,680
that they took money from the
ANZ, well, no, there's no risk

1173
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:47,000
from from that perspective.
So, you know, Southern Cross, I

1174
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:48,480
think probably benefits from
that.

1175
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:54,120
And if, if you had to scrag a
deposit of any geometry into

1176
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:57,440
production, you inevitably
benefit from having that higher

1177
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,520
market cap.
So you know, anyone who's in it,

1178
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:01,560
anyone who's concerned about
risk, anyone who's concerned

1179
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:07,000
about how that all works out, if
you need, you know, X of cap,

1180
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,440
X&X of working cap, they'll be
able to raise that plus 20% on

1181
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:13,680
both sides to make sure they're
well funded.

1182
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,840
Because I think we all realize
the, you know, one of the first

1183
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:21,280
potholes you can fall into as a
developer is are you going to

1184
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:23,120
have enough money to do it?
Because if you need to raise

1185
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:25,960
money just before you pour gold,
you, you're going to do it at a

1186
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:27,200
share price you'll always
regret.

1187
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:30,840
So, so I know that's an
ambiguous answer and I, and I

1188
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:32,440
don't know the answer.
I actually haven't spent much

1189
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:36,080
time on it, partially because
every time I've had the

1190
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:38,160
opportunity to look at it, I
look at the market cap and just

1191
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,200
go, there are so many things
that I need to look at that are

1192
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,200
worth a fraction of that.
And that's, that's where I need

1193
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:45,760
to be spending my time.
So, but then having done that,

1194
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:49,200
you know, I think we were
offered at a 500 mil market cap.

1195
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,760
Well, it's clearly performed
quite strongly from there.

1196
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:56,800
So, you know, feel a bit silly
about that, but, but I haven't

1197
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:59,720
been able to spend enough time
on it to, to really have a look

1198
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:03,400
at how it stacks up.
I I'm actually doing a a trial

1199
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:07,200
of one of those 3 dimensional AI
platform softwares at the

1200
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:10,160
moment, so it's one of the ones
I thought I might just use a

1201
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,480
test case there to twiddle
around and develop my ideas a

1202
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,920
bit better, but I should have
done that yesterday rather than

1203
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:16,600
tomorrow.
You're pretty methodical about

1204
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,360
how you you put your capital to
work and you're still relatively

1205
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,520
cashed up.
Where do you think given given

1206
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:24,600
you think a lot about the the
mining cycle where you're going

1207
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,080
to be with regards to cash
balance in a year's time?

1208
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,960
Yeah.
So we probably extrapolate a

1209
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:35,680
line, which is the cash balance
line from where we started to,

1210
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,120
you know, what stage in the
cycle do we want to be at A at a

1211
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,080
minimal level of cash and, and
what are our options around

1212
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,640
that?
Because as a, as an investor,

1213
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:46,560
we, we don't want to ever raise
money.

1214
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,240
We're not, we're not going to
have to, certainly not with the

1215
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:53,560
amount of cash we got at the
moment, But if we ever did have

1216
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:55,080
to, we got to have a really good
reason.

1217
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,280
So you, you don't want to run
out of money and you don't want

1218
00:59:58,280 --> 00:59:59,960
to get to the point where you
don't want to sell anything.

1219
00:59:59,960 --> 01:00:03,280
So there's also a bit of a
complexity around how LIC S

1220
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:08,080
raise money in the share price.
And NTA need to be very close

1221
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:10,800
together.
If they're not, either way,

1222
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,360
you're just going to look at the
equation and and say let's not,

1223
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:19,400
so we started in 2022, let's say
with about 75,000,000 bucks that

1224
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:25,560
was investable.
We've put away 53, I think the

1225
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:28,720
number is at the moment and we
still have 38.

1226
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,080
So we we sold a couple of things
along the way which came out of

1227
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:34,760
the legacy portfolio that
happened last year that took us

1228
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,840
up by about 12 or 14 of cash and
we we dividended a little bit

1229
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:40,520
more out.
So we we've managed to prop that

1230
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:43,960
cash position up.
So I, I would say in the coming,

1231
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,320
let's say 12 months and I know
we're almost well, we're four

1232
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,760
months into 2026 now.
I would have said that by the

1233
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:53,840
end of this year or let's say
mid next year, we'll probably

1234
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:55,960
have deployed another 20 of that
38.

1235
01:00:56,080 --> 01:01:00,160
And I dare say that that'll be
equally between what's already

1236
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:02,240
in the portfolio and a few new
things coming in.

1237
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:06,480
So that's the ideal.
I mean, I know a lot about and

1238
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,320
won't speak about what is
immediately in front of us in

1239
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:13,280
terms of opportunities and what
that could mean for investing.

1240
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,880
And I could talk about it in
terms of who I think we're about

1241
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,760
to do this.
The thing is that even if I

1242
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:20,800
think we're a week out from
doing something that could turn

1243
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,000
into six months or it could turn
into a no and often does right

1244
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:26,800
the last minute.
So, you know, notionally

1245
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:29,880
speaking, we'd, we'd like to
drain that by about 20 this year

1246
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:32,880
still leaves us with, you know,
between 15 and 20.

1247
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,760
And I, I think that's more than
enough to be going through what

1248
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,400
might be 8-9 o'clock at that
point in the cycle.

1249
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,720
And part of why I think that's
probably more than enough is

1250
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:46,280
that there's two, maybe three
things in our portfolio which

1251
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:49,520
have enough strategic appeal
that if if gold M&A becomes a

1252
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,040
thing, I'd say there's a
reasonable chance of something

1253
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:56,680
being taken over, which would
probably provide 10-15, maybe 20

1254
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,600
back into our portfolio
depending on what it is and and

1255
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:02,400
pricing and things like that.
So you know, if we got that kind

1256
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:04,760
of a bolstering, then we're
we're back to the cash balance

1257
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,600
that we're at.
But ideally, our model is

1258
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:13,040
through the boom phase to kind
of do most of your deployment

1259
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:15,680
before 9:00, which is sort of
halfway between the start and

1260
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:19,560
the finish.
And then to be starting to look

1261
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:21,720
at exits that you might need to
put a bit more effort into

1262
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:23,560
instead of just going, oh, well,
let's come to us, let's do

1263
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,000
something when you're between
10:00 and 11:00.

1264
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:27,960
Now, we think we're at 7:00 at
the moment.

1265
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:30,320
So we're still very much in the
deployment phase.

1266
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:33,360
But I think the rules change a
bit for us when you go from the,

1267
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:38,440
the 3:00 to 6:00 quadrant to the
6:00 to 9:00 quadrant, it's kind

1268
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:41,000
of like you're saying, well,
we're, we're finding more

1269
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,080
exceptions than the rule in
order to invest.

1270
01:02:44,080 --> 01:02:48,920
Whereas 3 to 6, most things are
priced at a level which is

1271
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:50,960
attractive.
It's, it's more finding the very

1272
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,160
best things that you can and
it's asset quality that you're

1273
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:55,200
worried about.
All of a sudden you start to

1274
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:58,240
worry about pricing.
And when you when you balance

1275
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:00,240
that against asset quality,
you're probably making smaller

1276
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,400
investments and seeing how they
go rather than putting fives in

1277
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,760
as a start.
Very keen to move into 8910.

1278
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:08,640
11:00 Yeah.
Well, good fun.

1279
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:10,680
I was wondering if we're going
to be there by now.

1280
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,800
But, you know, when Donald Trump
started acting in Iran, it

1281
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:17,960
probably slowed everything down.
But that's that's also, I mean,

1282
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:20,080
I don't think Iran is a good
thing.

1283
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:23,200
I think it's horrid.
But as far as what's happened in

1284
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,440
the market, we had such an
aggressive start to a boom

1285
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:27,680
cycle.
I don't think we've seen that

1286
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:29,280
happen before.
And that was unsustainable.

1287
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:31,320
It was down to pause for some
reason.

1288
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,240
January was wild.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1289
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:36,400
Chaos.
Well, I, I've never received so

1290
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:38,080
many term sheets in January
before.

1291
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:41,040
It's kind of like a everyone's
on holiday, don't you know?

1292
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:46,600
It's still January, go away,
come back, come back in a week.

1293
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:49,560
But yeah, we did more due
diligence in January on things

1294
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:51,040
that we thought were going to be
February.

1295
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:53,840
And it was like, we just need to
hurry up on these things.

1296
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:56,880
And, you know, fortunately
everyone was back from their

1297
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,840
breaks and things like that.
But I, I got back to work on, I

1298
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:03,040
think it was the 5th of January.
And I thought to myself, I've

1299
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:06,360
had a nice three-week break.
I'm going to, I'm going to work

1300
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:08,840
four days a week during January,
just take a few more leave days

1301
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:10,480
and make them into longer
weekends.

1302
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:13,200
Didn't happen.
I worked six days a week through

1303
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:16,440
January instead of four.
So, and I think there's a lot of

1304
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:18,760
people in the market who were
the same, just trying to keep up

1305
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:20,160
with everything that I had to
assess.

1306
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:25,400
And then we had, you know, the,
the, the sort of, well, I

1307
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:27,960
suppose when risk comes in,
micro caps suffer.

1308
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:31,560
So pricings come a long way back
to what we think is pretty

1309
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:33,920
attractive.
Awesome Headley, it's always

1310
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:35,800
fantastic to chat.
Appreciate you making the time

1311
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:37,840
for us in your neck of the
woods.

1312
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:39,680
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you for coming to visit

1313
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:42,000
Melbourne and let's take you out
to lunch.

1314
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:43,760
Looking forward to it.
Let's get some lunch.

1315
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:46,280
Definitely.
Always great to chat with the

1316
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:48,240
man himself in the flesh
Headley.

1317
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,800
Big thank you to our fantastic
partners Sandvik Ground Support

1318
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:53,880
and Medals Hub who we had in the
show.

1319
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:57,640
Also our thanks to Interlink's
Focus, the platform by market

1320
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:01,240
tech and seed capital Hoodoo
money miners.

1321
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,120
I remember I'm an idiot.
JD is an idiot.

1322
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:07,520
If you thought any of this was
anything other than

1323
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:10,160
entertainment, you're an idiot
and you need to read our

1324
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:10,680
disclaimer.