The End for Australian Exploration?

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The federal budget sort of hit
like an earthquake in the

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industry and probably across the
economy.

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There's a lot that's not been
expected there, but the changes

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to the capital gains tax
arrangements really are

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problematic, particularly when
you're getting our projects up.

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JD we're joined by none other
than Warren Pearce, Neil van

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Drennen.
We are delighted the two of you

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represent AMEC, which will be
incredibly well known by our

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listenership.
The reason we've invited you to

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talk with us, A, I mean, you're
ripping blokes.

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B Jadie and I have been
internally incredibly frustrated

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pulling our hair out at some of
their, yeah, more nuanced policy

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directions that impact in a
really substantial way investors

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into the resource industry, you
know, companies in the resources

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industry.
And there's no better interface

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between bridging, you know, the,
the understanding of policy to

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mining then then you guys who
live and breathe it every single

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day.
So we're absolutely delighted

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that you can be here.
Oh, great to be here, but also

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we can explain what it all
means.

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But I can't promise you won't be
tearing your hair out anyway.

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Yeah, you might be bored, but
certainly, certainly.

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I was bolding before this but.
Really cost saving measure won't

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have to go to the Barber.
If we think about some of the,

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the framing to what has come
out, particularly starting with

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the, the budget in recent times
up people from Tim Goyder, Bill

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Beamon, Mark Bennett have been
very vocal in their criticism of

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what this means for investors,
people backing young companies,

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exploration companies, the, you
know, original start-ups in, in

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Australia.
So why don't we start with like

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the high level overview of what
you guys made of the recent

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changes we've seen in the last
week or so?

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Yeah.
So the federal budget sort of

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hit like an earthquake in the
industry and probably across the

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economy.
There's a lot that's not been

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expected there.
But the changes to the capital

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gains tax arrangements really,
really are problematic,

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particularly when you're getting
our projects up.

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So you know, Tim Goyder, Bill
Beeman, Mark Bennett, all proud

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AIMET members, they know what it
takes to get a project, a middle

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exploration project off the
ground and what it takes to make

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a discovery and try and turn it
into something that creates

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real, real value.
What this really means is at the

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early stage when you're getting
a project together and you're

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trying to make your initial
public offering, the route is

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you rely on retail investors and
retail investors mean mums and

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dads.
In order to make your spread, to

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meet the ASX listing rules, you
need something like a minimum of

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300 individuals investing more
than $2000.

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The route is those retail
investors are more than 50% of

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most of those floats putting in
maybe 10 or 20,000.

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And if you come with the
investor briefings, you spend

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time with the investor
conferences.

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The route is, you know, these
people aren't high wealth

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individuals.
They're people who are taking a

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chance in a speculative, quite
high risk environment.

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They're particularly the IPO
stage.

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They got to hang around a while
to see if that investment's

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going to turn into something
something profitable for them

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and to remove that discount is
taking away a very substantial

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price of the part of the reward
that's potentially on offer for

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them.
And we're really concerned

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that'll make a a big impact on
our ability to get new IP OS off

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the ground, create new mineral
exploration companies and keep

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the mineral exploration effort
across Australia that ultimately

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makes the discoveries, that
builds out new mines and

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ultimately underpins the economy
of this country.

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Because it really, it's really
coming after us before we have

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the in stores come into it.
So it's at the beginning, it's

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just the retail guys and they're
the small guys that really help

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us get up.
So without that early start.

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The the the word they used was
take risk, right and the

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industry is built on risk
capital.

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In fact, the best business
success stories of Australia's

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history recent like enduring
long term, they have all been

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they've all been phenomenal
successes.

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But because the environment was
such that it encouraged risk

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capital.
And I think the thing that like

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just just incinerates me is the
the thought that the thought

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that risk risk capital's being
discouraged.

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Like where's the where's the the
long term tangible?

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Like, and the I of it is like,
so the, the government seems

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focused on having some sort of
carve out for tech companies

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like, well, what level of, of,
of this, you know, contribution

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to our economy they make right
now.

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They represent 3% of the ASX
middle exploration companies

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rent 30% of it.
If you look at the number of

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IPOs, they literally are the
vast majority are in middle

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exploration and mining.
They're not in tech.

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So if you're going to be going
to punish parts of the industry,

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parts of the risk capital
investment and parts of the

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industry that really are
underpinning our success, then

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you're really taking a pretty
big chance about your future

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economy.
And I think that's the bit

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that's sort of starting to come
home a week or two after the

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budget's been announced is
you're starting to see more and

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more potential problems here in
terms of the way in which

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investment comes into Australia
and the way in which people try

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and realize some value.
And the Australian government's

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really got to recognize there's
a lot of value.

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They're putting it riskier.
You, you think about the, the

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three names you mentioned before
and they've all had outstanding

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success in their career and
they've all had failures in

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their, in their own right as
well.

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And they've been shown through
and they've had the, you know,

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the courage to, to get themself
up and go.

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And there's been the incentive
for them to, to do so.

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If we dive in deeper, you've got
the mining companies that you

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guys represent as well as the
exploration companies.

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Now some people put forward the
case that your blue chip

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dividend paying companies, they
might see more attraction in

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capital, more capital going
toward them.

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Given this kind of framing, what
do you make of that statement?

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Well, I'm not sure they need it
like, and this is sort of this

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sort of conversation, which is
the reality is they're always

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going to be investors in in in
the blue chip stocks.

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And I don't think that's a quite
different conversation looking

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at the BHP's or indeed any mid
sized mining company.

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The reality is they've got their
own capital to invest and not

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the ability to go and raise
money.

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If you're a small exploration
company, I'm trying to develop a

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project, they're out is you've
got to work pretty hard to get

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that investment together.
Just to get that initial IPO

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together to build a project.
You're going to be somewhat

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limited about the scale of the
project you can build.

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You know, the Andrew Forrest of
the world with Fortescue are the

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absolute exception.
It's very difficult for a small

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middle exploration company to
get a bulk commodity up.

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You just can't raise the type of
money you need for a gold

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project or precious metals where
it might be 3 or $4 million.

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Pulling that together is
achievable.

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But really for the mining
companies, they're in a much

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better place.
They've got known capability,

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known capacity and ability to
raise.

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I'm not concerned about that
component.

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I'm not hearing that from
members.

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But also when I look at what the
government's doing, you're

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thinking like, OK, well you're
trying to push investment out of

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investment into housing, OK,
People investing in housing,

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going to invest in middle
exploration.

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That's a pretty big difference
in risk, risk profile.

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You're going from safest houses
to high risk, high reward.

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That's not where that money's
going to go.

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It's going to find other places.
It'll probably find its way into

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into blue chip stocks.
Maybe that's not a bad thing,

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but it'll hurt us in middle
exploration the.

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Other thing with the blue stocks
is the blue stocks are sitting

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or blue chips sorry are sitting
within an ecosystem of small and

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middle exploration companies so
that they may pick up in the

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future.
So our small players and our

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junior explorers are looking and
finding that make and making the

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discoveries that then get bought
out by the blue chips in the

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future, yeah.
There's less of an incentive for

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them as well to invest in, in
bigger projects 'cause we're in

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a higher tax environment.
The the cost of capital goes up,

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capital is driven overseas and
and these sorts of things as

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well.
So there's the downstream

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effects of this.
Cost of capital is, is like

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that.
That's the heuristic I'd look at

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the industry through like, you
know, capital will go where it's

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welcome.
And if you have

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disproportionately punitive
taxing regime on, on, on high

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risk capital, which by the way,
that the nature of high risk

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capital is you have a small
number of incredibly large

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outsized winners that and and
and there's a low probability of

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success.
This is exploration.

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Now that dynamic can only work
when you've got like some

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symmetry as well with your
taxing regime between your

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winners and your losers.
And like one of the one of the

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biggest like gut punches with
what has been put on the table

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so far is that lack of symmetry,
your losses, your losses

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struggle to offset your your
winners.

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That's preposterous.
And what you'll find most retail

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investors is they're trying to,
it's called diversify.

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They place their in their bet,
so to speak, across a range of

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middle exploration companies or
a range of mining companies, The

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hope that, you know, the the
profits take care of the losses.

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And maybe if they're lucky, they
get that extraordinary value

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creation moment with a big
discovery.

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But the reality it works for now
is it's our environment.

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So I think you'll see a lot of
retail investors reconsidering

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what they're doing.
And we need to keep them because

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let's be honest, that pool of
retail invest is pretty narrow.

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It's the same people that tend
to be aging out in a lot of

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ways.
Often they come from the

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industry previously mums and
dads sort of playing the penny

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dreadfuls, you know, like it
takes a lot of people being

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prepared to take quite a lot of
risk to really underpin our

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industry.
You wouldn't think that from the

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outside, you look at all the big
companies, big operations, it

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looks like there's money pouring
in the front and centre.

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But at the start of early stage
where there's no certainty of

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where or predictability about
whether that will return, return

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a reward.
That's a very small number of

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people who really make a very
big difference.

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And a lot of ways they're the
people who build our economy,

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the ones who prepare to take
that risk and ultimately we all

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benefit from the from the
reward.

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But.
Before we all set our hair on

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fire, this this is still a live
issue.

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It hasn't been forced through.
So how do you guys weigh up the

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the chances that this all gets
pushed through that's happening

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as we kind of speak and well,
the carve out with the the start

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up and so well.
The rumour is that it's going to

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go into Parliament this
Thursday, so that will be the

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framing legislation that'll
start set up the car, the

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capital gains tax and start
spelling out where the

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exemptions will be.
We're hopeful, but like hopeful

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that we'll be an exemption under
the start-ups provision, which

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has been a fair degree of talk
about with Treasury.

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We're meeting with Treasury
later this week.

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Just talk to that end
specifically by.

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The time we share this this this
might have sort of played out in

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the in the next few days a lot
they're.

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Moving real fast.
I'm not sure this issue is going

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to be going to be finalised
anytime soon.

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And I think the reality is that
the government's budget's been

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presented with an awful lot of
opposition, and not just from

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the places you might expect it.
So I think there's going to be a

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long way to run on this about
whether these changes actually

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come in and whether they're able
to be be sustained, particularly

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as we start to see the impacts
across the economy.

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For our end, we're trying to
make a strong advantage case.

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So we were, I was in Canberra
the day after Budget to meet

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with the Treasurer's Office and
and the Minister's office and

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talk through our concerns.
And it was pretty clear at the

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time that the way they had
presented their budget, the

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expectation there would be
detailed Treasury consultation

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00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,600
on how these various measures
would impact on the economy.

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00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,280
What's happened with the sort of
political storm that's enveloped

231
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,400
the budget and the proposals is
they seem now to be trying to

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00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,400
move more quickly.
So where, where can we know that

233
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,720
the evidence on our side now
we've got to try best to

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00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,080
convince Treasury and the
Treasurer and hopefully,

235
00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,600
hopefully and we can find that
carve out for middle exploration

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00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,360
do.
You guys live at the yeah, you

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00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,800
know, the, the interface of
industry and, and policy and,

238
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,400
and to be honest, like, I don't
don't know very much about what

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00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,640
the, what the, you know, the
function looks like for things

240
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,880
to become policy, for things to
become so entrenched that

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00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,120
they're actually, you know,
unchangeable in in the future.

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00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,960
And, and like as an individual,
as an investor, you know, also

243
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,080
someone that cares about the
industry, like realistically,

244
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,280
like on some probabilistic
weighted, you know, framework,

245
00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,560
how do you actually see this in
the long run playing out?

246
00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:31,920
You see, it's more likely than
not that this is this is the new

247
00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:33,640
regime.
I know that's a defeatist

248
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:35,040
mentality, but.
First thing, he's got to get to

249
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:36,800
Parliament.
Yeah, so get to the Senate, the

250
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:38,080
government.
Can announce, but the reality is

251
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,200
they've got to pass it now.
Budget bills traditionally are

252
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:42,880
not opposed, yes.
That said, some of these

253
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,640
proposals are going to be the
opposition's been very clear

254
00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,440
they'll oppose these changes.
They've got their own proposals

255
00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,680
and then we'll see how it hits
the the various crossbenches,

256
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:58,360
whether they are independent
deals, 1 Nation, Jackie Lambie,

257
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,160
the Greens.
Right now we don't know.

258
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,680
And indeed the Greens are saying
they don't think the proposals

259
00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:05,600
go far enough.
And you've certainly seen

260
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,880
legislation fall over because
although you'd think a certain

261
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,120
party would support it, they
don't feel it goes far enough to

262
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,800
meet their supporters views of
the world.

263
00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,000
So they've got a battle to get
to the parliament in the first

264
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,920
place and indeed that's going to
be a contested environment.

265
00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:22,240
If that happens, then obviously
these changes will become law

266
00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,120
and we'll be living with them
until either the change of

267
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,000
government or a change of view
from the government.

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00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,880
And the week after that, so next
week is budget estimates.

269
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,160
So it's an opportunity for
everyone to ask questions of the

270
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,040
departments.
So we'll be ensuring questions

271
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,640
of asked of the various
departments around where the

272
00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,640
capital gains tax idea came from
and why did they expand it

273
00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:49,680
beyond housing to us.
If yeah, it's a, it's a tough

274
00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:50,680
equation.
I mean, there's been some real

275
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:52,240
interesting tools that have
floated around the last few

276
00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,320
weeks.
Like you're, you've got, you're

277
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,640
trying to balance budget.
There's, you know, a really

278
00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,360
healthy spending Ledger.
You've got to offset it

279
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,080
somewhere.
You pull these dials and all of

280
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:02,840
a sudden, no, we've got to,
we've got to drag this one

281
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,760
across in order to make it all
balanced.

282
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:08,080
You've got 15 odd billion on the
fuel part of the equation that

283
00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,520
wouldn't have been factored in
just ten weeks ago.

284
00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,840
I guess that that's found its
way in there as well, right?

285
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,280
Well, that's right.
And not to mention increased

286
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:16,920
defence spending and a whole
range of other things.

287
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,000
So there's been, yes, and
there's been some, been some big

288
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,760
reforms around NDIS, which is
supposedly will bring some, you

289
00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:25,520
know, budget restraint around
those programs.

290
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,160
But that, that is the, the, the
fundamental challenge of

291
00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,160
government.
There's 1000 priorities or more

292
00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,480
and trying to find a way of
balancing the needs of, of, of

293
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,000
your community there equally.
How do you set an environment

294
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,720
that brings in the right level
of revenue without pushing away

295
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,160
potential investment and and
risk capital in your country?

296
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,680
So it's a difficult balance, but
I think in this instance they've

297
00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:51,600
got it wrong.
Certainly I just, you know, I, I

298
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,200
cannot understand why you would
want to make it harder to get a

299
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,440
mineral exploration, mineral
exploration going in this

300
00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,000
country given how much of our
economy and how much of our tax

301
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,480
revenue is based on it being
successful.

302
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,600
You know, I've had a problem
with investments and and

303
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,920
supporting other industries to
develop those, develop those

304
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:09,800
industries, diversifying our
economy, they're all good.

305
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,760
But let's not throw away the
foundation stones of what have

306
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,680
made us prosperous.
To round out on some of the

307
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:17,840
other parts that came out with
this budget, half a billion

308
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,760
dollars being put towards more
efficient proposals getting.

309
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,920
Environmental approvals.
Avoiding duplication and so on.

310
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,480
Can you speak to that for a
moment and see if there's like

311
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,600
actual substance there?
So that's been really good.

312
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,840
Neil's been leading our our work
on the federal EPBC work, but I

313
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:36,520
think we're pretty positive
about those changes.

314
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:38,040
Yeah, we are.
Yeah, sure.

315
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,400
So there's the government passed
in November amendments to the

316
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,600
Environmental Protection
Biodiversity Conservation Act,

317
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,160
which is the federal
environmental legislation.

318
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,160
So there's both state and
Commonwealth legislation.

319
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,560
The amendments will, we hope,
lead to reduce reductions in

320
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,360
time frames, particularly as we
see the states working through

321
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,120
bilaterals.
So we're expecting a Western

322
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,360
Australian and Commonwealth
bilat by the end of the year and

323
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,800
that will have the assessment
time frames and an assessment

324
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,720
time frame is where most of your
time is spent.

325
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,400
So that'll be good news.
But the bad news for me is that

326
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,960
at the moment, the standards,
which are below the regulations

327
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,200
and they actually define what
you're going to be assessed

328
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,200
against, they're getting
consulted on right now.

329
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,680
And we've got like there's a
deadline next, this Friday, for

330
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,200
example.
So we've gotta get submissions

331
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,080
in.
We've got our environment water

332
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,440
committee that are sending us in
lots and lots of feedback.

333
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,240
So we've got a submission in on
that.

334
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,920
So so if I guess if you listen
to maybe.

335
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,520
Don't don't understand how it
works.

336
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,520
You have to go through a state
environmental approval system.

337
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,080
Then if you're pulled into the
national legislation, you have

338
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:41,440
to then go through their
approval system.

339
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,280
By having a bilateral with the
state, you hand the assessment

340
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,400
over to the state government
that assesses against both at

341
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:47,920
the same time, which is.
Sensible, right?

342
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,280
That's.
Where the time saving are so you

343
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,680
don't reduce the environmental
protections, but you speed up

344
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,400
the the the assessment and the
time to get an approval.

345
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,120
So we get those bilaterals in
place.

346
00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,000
The federal governments put
money aside at their end.

347
00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,040
The state governments need to
put some money aside at their

348
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,880
end to resource it in WA.
But the agreement between the

349
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,840
state and federal governments
been have a bilateral an

350
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,040
assessment bilateral in place by
the end of the year.

351
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,720
So that'd be a big step forward
for industry and certainly

352
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,800
another one of those steps
forward in making our system

353
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,560
more efficient and things that
investors looking at our country

354
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,800
around approvals risk and say,
no, we're actually going in the

355
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,680
right directions and starting to
make things easy to easy to do

356
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,280
and easier and less cost of
doing in business.

357
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,400
So AMEC, AMEC advocates for on
behalf of its its member

358
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:32,440
companies.
Yep.

359
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:38,040
And those members like right
now, front of mind is is issue,

360
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,200
is issue #1 on their mind.
CGT would that be?

361
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,240
Absolutely.
I think we definitely, I think

362
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:44,960
that's certainly the front of
their mind.

363
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,000
What are they?
What what are they or can they

364
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,000
do about it?
Like are you, are you seeing a

365
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,440
capital flight as like a, you
know, well.

366
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,640
Right now, right now they're
receiving calls from investors

367
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,000
and trying to say look, just
wait and see.

368
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,760
We're campaigning against this.
You can see the associations out

369
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,960
there, a lot of their members
are stepping forward to provide

370
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,400
public comment and really try
and sheet home the reality of

371
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:05,760
how this will affect the
industry.

372
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,319
But equally, we're asking our
investors, when investors know

373
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:11,960
what's going on, they're the
ones putting money in, who see

374
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,119
value in the industry they're
investing in, and they don't

375
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:15,800
want to see it change.
So we're asking them to join the

376
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,680
fight too.
Yeah.

377
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,680
And then so CGT issue #1 what's
like like, you know, issue #2

378
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,640
that, that, that you're often.
Cultural heritage, Absolutely.

379
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,800
Let's let's talk about this,
this concern, the concern that

380
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,080
you member companies have about
this so.

381
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,840
Cultural heritage is one of
these with these challenging

382
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,320
issues.
So first point is to recognize

383
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,480
that cultural heritage is an
important, important part of, of

384
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,320
Western Australian Australian
history and indeed the

385
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,320
Aboriginal story that's gone on
for 60,000 years, long before

386
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,280
people like us have had the
opportunity to take the benefits

387
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,320
of living here in Australia.
However, the process itself has

388
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,960
become a major barrier to
getting on ground for companies.

389
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,880
So once you, let's say you take
money off an investor, you raise

390
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,120
money for an expiration program,
then it's 12 to 18 months while

391
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:06,840
you go through a native title
agreement process, a heritage

392
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,760
process, surveying the area
before you can really go on

393
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,200
ground doing that work.
Now, we have no problem with

394
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,560
taking responsibility to protect
heritage and working with

395
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,440
additional owners.
That's something we value.

396
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,560
Traditional owners are our most
important stakeholder, but we

397
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,080
need the pricing to come to
agreement and how we go about

398
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,960
protecting our heritage to be as
efficient as possible and as and

399
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,360
as inexpensive as possible.
And right now, since the cold

400
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:36,360
heritage legislation a few years
ago and the destruction of Duke

401
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:41,080
and Gorge, we've unsettled a a
normalized process about how

402
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,880
that went, about the way fair
and reasonable agreements were

403
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,560
made and expectations amongst
groups and the cost of companies

404
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,960
are facing to get on ground has
risen exponentially to a point

405
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,880
where exploration companies now
can't necessarily afford to move

406
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,360
forward.
Talk us through that that

407
00:18:56,360 --> 00:18:57,680
history.
You have Duke and Gorge in in

408
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:02,320
2020, and then you have the Act
in 23 that gets repealed after

409
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,360
it's.
Finished in 22, comes in 23.

410
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:05,200
Comes in.
OK.

411
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,800
Yeah.
And what like how materially

412
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,600
from the outside, it's hard to
kind of see what it's like, but

413
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,640
how materially has the
environment changed for

414
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,600
companies over those years the.
Step before that is that the

415
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,520
consultation on the Heritage Act
had actually started before Duke

416
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,080
and Gorge and that really
accelerated the process.

417
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,080
So there was the act was open
and under consultation.

418
00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:29,440
It was sort of moving along
slowly and then Duke and Gorge,

419
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,400
boom.
It just really accelerated.

420
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,600
And what in in so?
Give me a two example.

421
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,280
So we've, we've, we've done a
cost survey with our members

422
00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,880
last year and what it tells you
since 2023, our costs have risen

423
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,040
by more than 50%.
And cost comes in multiple ways

424
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,960
like like sure, cost is like
just the the dollar number

425
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,960
expense you have to experience.
But the the reality is time

426
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,720
value of money is enormously
like important and incredibly

427
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,520
erosive for a for a small gap
who has who has fixed costs.

428
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,440
They have to keep paying in
order to be a listed company

429
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:03,120
and.
That's right.

430
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:05,000
So even when you're doing
nothing, it costs money.

431
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:06,880
The reality is you hold a
tenement, you got to pay the

432
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,200
state government tenant rental
fees.

433
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,000
You've got to pay local
government rates on the

434
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,720
tenement.
You've got to pay your staff, so

435
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,520
there's still cost going on even
though you're not able to get to

436
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,680
the point where you start doing
the work that actually

437
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,640
potentially creates the value.
So it takes 18 months to get on

438
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,360
ground.
That's 18 months of cost you

439
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:25,640
have to endure before you get to
the work when money goes into

440
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,960
the ground and might actually
realize some value.

441
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,360
And that's the bit that, you
know, we, we want fair

442
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:32,720
agreements, We need good
relationship fish liners.

443
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,360
But right now, government needs
to step back into this space and

444
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:40,040
provide a bit clearer framework
about how this process is

445
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,240
supposed to work to make sure
that heritage is being

446
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:44,600
protected.
But also there's a process is

447
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,560
reasonably affordable for
companies to continue doing

448
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,560
their work.
Otherwise, the benefits that

449
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,640
come from discoveries and mining
operations simply evaporate

450
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,960
before they get started.
What are the load hanging fruit

451
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,040
here?
Because like, I've, I'm by no

452
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,520
means an expert, but I've heard,
I've heard parts of the reason

453
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,880
why this is, you know, this is a
frustrating process to endure.

454
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,560
And, and, and every, single,
every single cultural heritage

455
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,360
agreement or every single, you
know, survey that is done,

456
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,600
they're subject to
confidentiality agreements.

457
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,840
So the next the next person who
owns those 10 minutes next

458
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,360
company, they have to redo all
of the same work again.

459
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:21,920
But.
There are lots of these examples

460
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,480
where you'd think pretty simple
answers like that.

461
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,960
You know, there's a heritage
register the state holds where

462
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,720
essentially if you discover a
heritage site or something is

463
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,280
identified as important called
heritage, then it's supposed to

464
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,440
be reported to the state
government, put on a register

465
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,520
and then mapped.
That's a way in which you can

466
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,520
start to, you know, hold on to
all the survey work that's being

467
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:43,840
done.
The reality is that traditional

468
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,160
owner groups don't like that.
They've got a quite reasonable

469
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,400
fear that if all their sites are
sacred sites are known publicly,

470
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,000
that some individuals might go
and desecrate sites.

471
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,680
Now, OK, So what happens is the
company respects that and then

472
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,560
doesn't report those sites onto
the register.

473
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,640
Surely there's some kind of
halfway or compromise agreement

474
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,120
where that information be
provided to government, but it's

475
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:06,520
not accessible by all the
public.

476
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,120
It's only accessible by those
who hold land rights over the

477
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:10,920
area.
A pastoral lease, a mining

478
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,280
lease, an exploration lease.
There are ways we can do these

479
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,440
things without having to
consistently resurvey the same

480
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,840
areas to essentially find the
same thing at exponential cost.

481
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,800
That doesn't need to happen.
That shouldn't have to happen to

482
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,320
protect heritage, but we just
need better ways of doing this.

483
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,200
And that does involve some role
of government saying, no, this

484
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:30,880
is how we think this should
work.

485
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,280
And we want to make sure a grant
making between project

486
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,880
proponents and traditional
owners is fair and reasonable.

487
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,880
But we want to sort of set what
we think a reasonable standard

488
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,280
should be.
And that's going to be a

489
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,000
starting place for industry and
for TR groups when we get

490
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,640
together around the table to
start, to start from something

491
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,520
that's already a bit developed
rather than starting with a

492
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,640
blank piece of paper every time.
And.

493
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,520
Where's that conversation at
right now?

494
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,480
Well, good question.
So after a lot of IMEC advocacy

495
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,120
following following the the
previous cultural head

496
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:02,080
legislation, the state
government for the Premier

497
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,320
agreed to undertake a review.
The Western government engaged

498
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,000
the National Native Title
Tribunal and one of the tribunal

499
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,240
members, Glenn Kelly to
undertake a review of the Cold

500
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,440
Heritage framework in Western
Australia as well as its

501
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,640
interaction with Native Title
Future Acts process.

502
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,640
Glenn Kelly.
Glenn has spent six months

503
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,560
meeting with stakeholders from
industry, from digital owner

504
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,280
groups, from anyone involved in
this process, written up a

505
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,360
detailed report handed to
government in February this

506
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:30,040
year.
But that that hasn't been made

507
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,720
public and and the only
questions in Parliament.

508
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,320
The government said it's an
active consideration.

509
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,360
And we'll let you know once
we've we've reached a decision

510
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:40,160
about what, if anything, we're
going to do.

511
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:45,720
And so we are waiting, somewhat
impatiently to find out what the

512
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,160
state government tends to do to
try and write the ship.

513
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,120
There is no timeline on this
process then no.

514
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,920
Quickly, mate, the underlying
theme of a lot of this

515
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,920
conversation with Warren and
Neil, it's really addressing

516
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,680
stuff that we, we think maybe
gets in the way of Australia's

517
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,440
competitiveness in big industry.
This is true.

518
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,240
And when you think of Australian
industry competitiveness, I can

519
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,640
think of 1 industrial player in
Australia that is very

520
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:11,400
competitive.
You know why?

521
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,440
Because they're the absolute
best at producing ground

522
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,520
support.
That is Sandvik ground support.

523
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,960
That's right mate, we have seen
their facilities on either end

524
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,760
of the continent.
Doesn't matter which cables you

525
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,720
want, which bolts you want, they
have got you sorted.

526
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,320
Sandvik ground support, All
ground support needs you could

527
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,480
ever want produced in
manufacturing facilities.

528
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,680
They're in Australia, they're
they're also all across the

529
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,400
world.
They're also, it's true, it's

530
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,680
also warehouse facilities all
across the world for fast

531
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,720
expedient distribution to mine
sites all across the globe.

532
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,720
Get your ground support order in
today with Sandvik Ground

533
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,120
Support.
Back to Warren Neil, I think I

534
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:45,240
think of like the systems design
part of it a bit because it's

535
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,080
like, you know, you show me
these and because I'll show you

536
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,560
the outcome.
And I and I do completely agree

537
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,280
that like extractive industries,
you have to respect the, the

538
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,200
heritage to the extent that that
heritage is, is like, you know,

539
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,280
it is the real heritage in
place.

540
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,560
And, and, and the, the structure
you describe at the moment, it

541
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,120
seems to me like this there
might have been an incentive to

542
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,760
overstate what the real heritage
dynamics are, because each time

543
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,400
there might be, you know, some,
some benefit to some, you know,

544
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,640
marginal incremental negotiation
power.

545
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,920
If if you, you know you.
Could make that.

546
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,840
Yes, I think that's fair, right.
But I also think you don't often

547
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,840
see that from digital owners.
So what you see on a series

548
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,360
survey is there'll be a
consultant or anthropologist and

549
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:26,520
archaeologist and and then
monitors from the group.

550
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,040
The monitors pretty much tell it
as they say it.

551
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,840
If they know there's the
heritage has been passed down as

552
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:38,560
part of part of oral history or
on that undercover sites, they

553
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,040
pretty much say this heritage or
this isn't particularly

554
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,840
important to us.
What you get though is a range

555
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,480
of people who are, let's say
well-intentioned but motivated

556
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,560
by the fact that they have a
role to find heritage and, you

557
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,960
know, making justifying their
role in that role.

558
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,440
The lawyers themselves
well-intentioned, wanting to get

559
00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,120
the best agreement for the
traditional owners, but equally

560
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,680
that seems to somehow mean 18
months of work for them.

561
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,000
Ultimately, the money is going
the wrong place.

562
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:10,200
Our industry would much rather
see that money going towards

563
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,880
traditional owners and their
communities and actually making

564
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,480
a difference on country.
And that's the thing with middle

565
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,880
exploration.
The reality is the money that's

566
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,080
going to middle exploration
isn't, you know, going to

567
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,840
change, isn't going to be a
generational change, but the

568
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,600
money from a mining operation
can be.

569
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,000
And that's why you need middle
exploration to keep going.

570
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,720
It's low impact.
It can be done without damaging

571
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,880
heritage to get to a point where
you know, resources are and then

572
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,640
there's real revenue to talk
about how that gets shared and

573
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,720
how that benefits traditional
owners in their communities.

574
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,840
And that's what we and look, we
see T OS wanting those economic

575
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,200
opportunities.
The problem is we got a cottage

576
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,840
industry in between us, making
it hard to uncover those

577
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,960
opportunities.
And we're one of the only

578
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,640
industries that are out in
regional Australia, so for a lot

579
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,400
of those groups, the discovery
of a mine would be huge.

580
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,960
It's not like you're going to
have Google or the IT companies

581
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:01,960
moving out to north of
Warburton.

582
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,800
It's not going to happen.
You might find some naiveium out

583
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,040
there though.
We've got to talk about

584
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,440
Fortescue then like big name in
in the news lately, the $150

585
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,360
million compensation award that
came up I think a couple weeks

586
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:17,240
ago that was running for years
and years and years and years.

587
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,600
What do you guys make of it?
Well, might be still running.

588
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:23,720
So I think right now waiting for
the full judgment to get better

589
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,680
context on it.
So clearly there's been a

590
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,240
decision around compensation.
The Indibandi asked for 1.5

591
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,640
billion for land and cultural
loss.

592
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,760
The court said 150 million.
Most of that's for cultural

593
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,760
loss.
We'll wait to see if the

594
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,840
Indibandi, after some
consideration, decided to

595
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,600
appeal.
That looks as if Ford excuse

596
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,280
prepared to to leave it at that,
but we'll wait and see.

597
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,400
But the judgement's really
important because there's a

598
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,440
range of things that have been
considered in that case that

599
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,080
hopefully the court will give
some guidance on how these

600
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,440
things would be measured or
thought about by the court.

601
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,440
And that will then indicate that
to industry and traditional

602
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,600
owner groups about what the
expectations of what

603
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,520
compensation looks like.
And in that case, that way,

604
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,400
governments put forward a model
and the inner body put forward a

605
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,120
model and forced to put forward
a model.

606
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,360
We need some guidance from the
court because a lot of native

607
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:19,680
title law, native title
compensation really is being

608
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:22,000
that law is being made by the
courts.

609
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:23,400
It's not being made in the
parliaments.

610
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,800
And so we're waiting for court
case after court case to try and

611
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,320
determine new precedents and set
new standards.

612
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,920
And so everyone's watching that
pretty closely, but we've sort

613
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,160
of got to wait for the full
judgement to really understand

614
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,680
how the court reached decisions
and if there are any other

615
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,880
principles that are going to
become significant and which we

616
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,760
all build around in future
agreements and negotiations.

617
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,800
It's meant to be 350 pages, so
there'll be a bit of juicy stuff

618
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,120
in there, so.
Is is Fortescue an AMEC member?

619
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,680
Yes, yes, a proud AMEC member
and look since.

620
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,480
The beginning since the.
Beginning, that's one of those

621
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,440
things like we're, we're, we're
fortunate having our membership,

622
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,120
some very big companies that
started as very small companies.

623
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,760
They've stayed with us through
the journey as we've helped them

624
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,520
with through project development
and supporting them as they've

625
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,240
got into operation and really
proud to be associated with

626
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,880
them.
If if you so so issue one at the

627
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:12,960
moment.
CGT issue 2.

628
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:20,480
Cultural Heritage issue 3.
Environment EPP 3, probably

629
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,480
EPPC, you know, I think it's
probably approval's.

630
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,760
Timelines that.
Yeah, and making sure those

631
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,440
standards land properly.
Right.

632
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,680
And what's the risk there?
They won't.

633
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,120
There's always risk that they
won't, I suppose.

634
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,480
But yeah, we'll see.
I think the.

635
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,360
Can you frame it quickly for
people that don't know what it

636
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:36,880
is?
Just yeah.

637
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,000
So think about it like this way.
So what's happening with federal

638
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,520
environment legislation is they
go, okay, we're going to set a

639
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,120
national standard that you must
reach.

640
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,400
And so those standards are going
to be higher than the ones that

641
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,800
exist currently or in the
legislation currently and the

642
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,880
state will assess against them.
So that will set those up.

643
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,360
The thing is, when you're
writing national standards for

644
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,640
the environment across a
continent, the route is it

645
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,240
impacts differently in different
places.

646
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,640
And so how that's interpreted by
the departments, how that

647
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,600
impacts operation on the ground,
you have to really wait and see.

648
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,080
And so if we get that right, we
provide the right level of

649
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,320
flexibility, the department
administrates in the right way,

650
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,680
then it will work.
If if we get it wrong, it's

651
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,040
gonna cause some problems that
require rework and and can quite

652
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,920
difficulty.
Our major goal here is to get

653
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,400
rid of duplication.
We don't need a situation where

654
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,280
the federal government, the
state government are basically

655
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,960
spending time and money doing
the same thing.

656
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,880
And what we want to do is make
sure the national standards set

657
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,720
it out.
They create a situation with the

658
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,480
duplication can disappear and
the states can work through the

659
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,760
state system and the national
standards to give an assessment

660
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,040
and ultimately see it signed off
by state and federal

661
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,480
governments.
It's all about getting rid

662
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,000
duplication.
And so anything that that's one

663
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,720
of the problems with federation,
you hand responsibility to the

664
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,560
states, but you don't feel
they're doing enough or some

665
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,200
there's some pressure
politically to the federal

666
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,440
government step in.
You end up suddenly with two

667
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,800
governments trying to make
decisions over the industry,

668
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,760
whether it's ours or others.
That really isn't that helpful.

669
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,160
The other bit is that each state
and territory does it

670
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,840
differently.
So that's going to be really

671
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,160
quite interesting to see how we
work through.

672
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,000
Like there's one matter of
national environmental

673
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,360
significant standard, which are
the the plants and the animals

674
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,920
that the federal government have
identified should be protected.

675
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,320
And each state has a different
environmental legislation that

676
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,480
deals with matters slightly
differently.

677
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,640
So and.
This, this, this, you know, the,

678
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:30,000
the, the flora and fauna that I,
I secondhand, I've heard a fair

679
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:35,520
bit of like some, some issues
relating to certain flora and

680
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:40,480
fauna which seem just kind of
weird at face value that it's

681
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,160
like holding up a, a, a, you
know, a billion dollar like

682
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,160
infrastructure project like.
So I mean, and Neil spends a lot

683
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,240
of time with this with the
environment committee, but I

684
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,640
think one of the things you got
to think about is so a lot of

685
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,400
the scientific knowledge we have
about our environment actually

686
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,480
comes from mining companies.
Actually go ahead and do these

687
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,840
floor and fauna surveys in
remote and regional parts of

688
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,160
Australia, but they only redo
that in the footprint of the

689
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,000
area that they're going to be
building their project and where

690
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,200
their project might have
impacts.

691
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,240
So you might then find something
that is nutty vegetation or a

692
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,880
particular species that isn't
known or isn't well known to be

693
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,560
in that area, but you don't have
a regional mapping of the area

694
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,160
to actually realise none of this
species isn't threatened or

695
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,000
under, under, under under
extinction threat that actually

696
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,200
the impacts are going to be
quite manageable.

697
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,040
And so essentially everything
gets treated as if they're

698
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,480
endangered.
And so I mean, that's probably a

699
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,880
bit of a a bit of a, a bit of a
mansplaining of it.

700
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,440
But I think that's one of the
challenges that hopefully with

701
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,560
regional planning, one of the
proposals, we can actually get a

702
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,240
regional landscape mapping
around fallen fauna, sernays for

703
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,320
flora and fauna surveys that the
government undertakes that gives

704
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:53,920
the baseline about the entire
area.

705
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,280
And we can start working on
programs for Environmental

706
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,960
Protection improvement that
actually are regional or species

707
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,480
level.
That really have a much better

708
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,720
impact than really just talking
about the footprint of the

709
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,760
project, which tends to be
isolated and not necessarily

710
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:11,800
leaving the environmental legacy
we'd like.

711
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,040
And is the largest portion of
this work done when you want to

712
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,640
get that mining permit,
understand you're doing bits on

713
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,760
the other side, But yeah, yeah,
absolutely so.

714
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,360
One of the good things is that
this occurs post exploration.

715
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,160
You have to have made a
discovery and then you put in a

716
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,800
proposal to to mine and that
generally is what will trigger

717
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,040
the EPBC act.
So at that point then the

718
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,400
positive is that you've got a
discovery.

719
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,440
Hopefully it's an economic
discovery and you're hoping to

720
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,320
proceed with it and then you've
got funding to undergo the one

721
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,760
or two year process of getting
your assessment together, doing

722
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,800
the necessary surveys, getting
the data together and then

723
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,680
getting your approval through
are.

724
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,040
They protected species that like
like how many, how many times

725
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,200
have you heard the black
cockatoo holding up an approval

726
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,480
process, for example?
And they're all over the state

727
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,800
and it's like, how does it make
sense?

728
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:10,120
Well, yeah, I mean, one of the
things that I, I find

729
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,880
frustrating is, is and I, I
guess you got to try and see it

730
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,800
from both perspectives is, you
know, remnant vegetation, you go

731
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,719
through the weight belt, the
entire weight belt's been

732
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,920
cleared for farming.
Meanwhile, it happens that

733
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,760
what's left of this little
paddock of, of, of natural

734
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,360
bushland happens to sit near a
resource and suddenly it can't

735
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,000
be touched.
You think what value does a does

736
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,679
a does there's three paddocks
of, of, of native remnant

737
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:35,239
vegetation actually have when
frankly, it looks like it's less

738
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,480
significant in the bushes in my
backyard.

739
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,159
But the reality for the black
cockatoos, that's a point of

740
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:45,199
migration point for them where
they can stop and they move

741
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:47,840
through.
It's part of their their natural

742
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,920
population movement.
And so it becomes important and

743
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,239
you have to realize, have to
accept that the reason these

744
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:55,960
bulls have been put down has
been for protection.

745
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,880
Now, at some point you'd like to
see as we build in all these

746
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,400
programs, you build back the
population of black, black

747
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,280
cockatoos that ultimately they
come off the list and the

748
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,400
reality of things go on the
list, but nothing ever seems to

749
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,600
come off.
And it's not because they're

750
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,880
becoming more threatened.
It's often because we just don't

751
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,680
have enough information to know
actually they're not in that

752
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,200
situation anymore.
They've never been in that

753
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,280
situation, so we've got to see
them both ways and remember that

754
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,360
actually having a strong
Environmental Protection Act and

755
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:28,520
regulatory reforms, regulatory
rules around our industry is a

756
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,640
good thing.
It means we operate to a high

757
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,880
standard.
It means the community can trust

758
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,160
when government says no, this is
going to be acceptable

759
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,480
environmental impact.
They know we've gone through a

760
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,440
very detailed process of surveys
and assessment to ensure that

761
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,280
we're doing things sensitively
and that's something that helps

762
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:45,640
our industry sustain the long
term.

763
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,280
It does mean some, you know,
some short term pain sometimes,

764
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,480
but equally you know, we value
the our environmental record and

765
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,880
we want not to make the mistakes
that perhaps our industry's made

766
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,120
in the past.
Can I ask about like if a few

767
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,240
more high profile, you know,
instances where it it seems like

768
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,440
a a regulatory decision or delay
and regulatory decision has has

769
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,920
been incredibly kind of costly
to to to a company or an

770
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,680
industry.
So S 32 in Alcoa where Yeah, but

771
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,040
you know, both in long, long
enduring, you know, disagreement

772
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:23,080
state.
Agreements, yeah.

773
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,400
So what, what, what actually
happened there with their

774
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,240
inability to to to mine part of
their, their, their inventory

775
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:31,600
that they thought would produce
the highest grade and be more

776
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,000
suitable to the refineries and
the inability to actually get an

777
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,680
outcome in a timely manner.
State agreements are complicated

778
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,040
things.
They are a contract between a

779
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,920
company and the parliament and
they sit outside of the

780
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,640
legislative framework.
So that creates within a series

781
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,800
of time frames that are
different to like other

782
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,040
processes.
And they are old, generally old

783
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,680
documents.
So they were done in a different

784
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,200
era with a different set of
expectations.

785
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,560
And as a consequence, and
because they are so hard to

786
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,680
change, they're usually only get
changed at key junctures.

787
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,240
And then at that point, there's
a lot of conversation about a

788
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:11,680
whole lot of things.
So you want to amend the state

789
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,320
agreement, either from the
government end or the state

790
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,560
government, both parties have to
agree and then they enter a

791
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,360
negotiation process.
So I think I mean, one of the

792
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,800
realities for our car is they
sit in the Southwest forest.

793
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:24,440
And you think the the, the
community views and tips, the

794
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,280
the political attitudes around
activity in the Southwest

795
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,520
forest, whether that's been the
timber industry or the mining

796
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,800
industry, exploration or other
things has changed quite a lot.

797
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,720
And so expectations around that,
you know, often centered on on

798
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:40,000
players who are are there and
consequently has meant there's

799
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,520
not been a lot of opportunity
for explorers to enter the

800
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,240
Southwest Forest and look for
what's expected to be quite a

801
00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:46,400
lot of critical minerals under
there.

802
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,240
So expectations change and
companies move with those

803
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:51,800
expectations.
Ultimately, alcohols kept

804
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,240
operating through those through
those negotiations, they've come

805
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:58,200
to an understanding with
government that'll enable those

806
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,360
projects to keep going.
And indeed, they've been

807
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,120
supported by both the state and
federal government to develop a

808
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,160
galleon project, which is
critical to our national need

809
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,480
and our strategic allies.
So we know see alcohol being a a

810
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,000
good corporate citizen, one
that'll be we hopefully be in WA

811
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,880
a long time.
Reducing carbon emissions is is

812
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,200
a core part of a lot of these
discussions going forward and

813
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,480
obviously a big topic at the the
Parliament level.

814
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,280
If we like hone in on that
example that the TRAV gave and

815
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:29,040
we just spoke to it was put
forward to us that the net

816
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,520
outcome of one ton of aluminium
coming out from that part of the

817
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,160
world in in the Southwest is
half of what it would be for the

818
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,800
mine that mines that book site
and so on and makes the

819
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,320
aluminium in a place like
Indonesia.

820
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,840
But that is where the supply has
has moved to.

821
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,720
Is this framing of the
discussion coming up at all in

822
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:51,080
Parliament?
Oh, it is, I think.

823
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,080
Perhaps not with the, not with
the, not with the, the, the

824
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:56,400
priority.
We'd like to see it.

825
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,760
I think I look at the nickel
industry and think, you know, we

826
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,280
had, you know, 6 or 7000 people
employ the nickel industry and

827
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,080
we watched our nickel industry
essentially created by

828
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,560
investment in Indonesia's nickel
industry that is doing things

829
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,640
with little of any environmental
standards.

830
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,080
And you and you see some of the
reporting about what's happening

831
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:15,560
with tailings being pushed out
in the sea.

832
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,560
It's horrifying.
It's very dangerous, damaging to

833
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,080
their biodiversity in their
environment, not to mention the

834
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,160
emissions profile or the way how
they're doing things.

835
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,200
So, but we face these with
things like the forest industry,

836
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,440
the routers, we've shut down our
logging industry in WA, We

837
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,000
haven't stopped at demand for
timber.

838
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,440
The route is we've just exported
it somewhere else, place like

839
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,280
Indonesia where they cut down
the forest because they want the

840
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,320
jobs and economy but don't go
through the same sustainability

841
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,480
practices.
So we value having a industry

842
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,440
that has high regulatory
standards around environment,

843
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,400
around wages and conditions,
around safety.

844
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,880
But that does come at a cost.
But unfortunately is the

845
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,840
international market hasn't
necessarily come to the

846
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,480
realisation that if you want
ethically sourced minerals,

847
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,600
you're ultimately gonna need to
pay some more for it and simply

848
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,560
while people are still or
companies.

849
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,200
And countries are still looking
for the cheapest price.

850
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,800
Then you're going to find other
nations that are prepared to do

851
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,840
things to move their people out
of poverty without having

852
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,280
necessarily the regard to the
same environmental standards or

853
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,960
other standards that we have.
So we think about that a lot.

854
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,480
That's also true emissions as it
is to about the general

855
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,160
environment and particularly
like value adding, like we want

856
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,160
to do value adding here.
The reality is value adding is

857
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:32,760
energy intensive.
If you want to do that here,

858
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,640
you're going to have to use more
energy to do it.

859
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,560
But surely it's better that it's
done here at higher standards

860
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,120
than done overseas where the
value is basically passed to

861
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,360
other other players.
So, you know, I think there's a

862
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,200
bit of a resettling about some
of these things.

863
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,400
Some of the emissions arguments
I think are really quite

864
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,880
challenging for people.
If you want renewables

865
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,400
everywhere, that's great.
You know, they're going to give

866
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,880
you a clean energy, but also
it's kind of a pretty big impact

867
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:02,400
on the natural environment.
If you see these massive solar

868
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,720
farms, the route is they've
cleared everything underneath

869
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:07,520
it.
Wind farms have have an impact

870
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,680
themselves on, on, on, on
natural fauna.

871
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,160
So but you have to, you always
have to trade off something.

872
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,640
There's no those simple
solutions where you want clean

873
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:17,880
energy.
It's, it's, you know, it doesn't

874
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,960
come at a cost somewhere else.
We have to make those trade-offs

875
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,680
and and governments need to
think about those things.

876
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,920
You mentioned earlier value add
and this is perhaps the the

877
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,600
topic I was most keen or maybe
second most keen to talk about.

878
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,520
The critical mineral strategic
reserve ties in with this and we

879
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,440
finally seen the I guess the
first of it's kind Arafur is FID

880
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,000
recently.
But quickly, just give us the

881
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,360
the background on how the
strategic reserve came to be.

882
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,560
Relation commitment, so we've
discussed for a while this is

883
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,840
should Australia have a
stockpile of minerals?

884
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,360
You know, much like we have a
few reserve that probably a lot

885
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,440
of people's estimation should
have been a bit bigger than it

886
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,480
turned out to be.
But the idea being that, and

887
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,960
particularly looking at at the,
the demand for critical minerals

888
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,400
and the growth of critical
minerals demand into the sort of

889
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,920
the in the next 20 years meant a
really big opportunity for

890
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,080
Australia.
The problem is for a lot of

891
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,160
these critical minerals, you're
going into a marketplace that is

892
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,160
completely unknown with no
transparent price and or

893
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:23,440
dominated by China, who is able
to apply large economies of

894
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,640
scale and their own approach to
pricing to make it commercially

895
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,400
unviable for anyone to develop
anything on a commercial basis,

896
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,520
which has meant there's had to
be government intervention in

897
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,040
this space.
And over the last two US

898
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,440
presidencies, there's been
massive market interventions.

899
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,000
The the Joe Biden Inflation
Reduction Act was a trillion

900
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,720
dollars of of of interventions
designed at trying to get all

901
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:48,680
the value adding and supply
chain of critical was in the

902
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,240
United States and domestic
processing and followed by

903
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,120
Europe.
There's about 1500 marketing

904
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,160
adventures by government, which
has meant really governments

905
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,640
have to lean in this otherwise
projects aren't commercially

906
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,040
viable.
So what we're trying to do with

907
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,640
the Australian government is
find ways to support on the

908
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,680
supply side of how you would be
able to get a company to be able

909
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,720
to get to be financially
supported to build the project

910
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,600
and actually start to build some
transparency of price and find

911
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:16,920
customers.
And so that's what the reserves

912
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,320
designed to do, step into a
space where the market mightn't

913
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,720
be able to to support the
moment, but with the knowledge

914
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,480
that ultimately as the market
grows, those those cost the

915
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,640
Australian government might wear
upfront will ultimately be

916
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,440
passed on to to other customers.
And that's really how it's going

917
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:33,960
to work.
I think you see, you know, if

918
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,160
you look at United States
President Trump's Project Vault,

919
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,800
$12 billion to buy critical
minerals essentially ultimately

920
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,400
the product we produce here in
Australia to be pretty easy

921
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,160
decision for the United States
to go, we need rarest now.

922
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:49,480
Well Arafur is producing it or
Lucas producing it.

923
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,960
We're going to grab that.
The Australian have done a lot

924
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:55,240
to put us at the front of this
field.

925
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:57,400
I think we've actually done
pretty well on that.

926
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,520
I think the demands now starting
to to come much more quickly,

927
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:02,920
but it does mean Australian
government taking the risk with

928
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,080
taxpayer money as we've got to
be careful about that but on

929
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,080
this case long term.
Sustainability of that if it,

930
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:12,480
you know, if, if that turns out
to be a, you know, a poor

931
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,360
allocation of taxpayer money and
then you kind of have to pick up

932
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,480
the pieces on the policy
application thing and try and

933
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,120
get somewhere sensible in the
long run like.

934
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,400
Look, I think that's a
reasonable, a reasonable concern

935
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,640
for people to think about when
you put this policy together.

936
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,000
I think in the rarest space, the
demand will be there.

937
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,800
I don't think anyone's got any
lack of confidence around that.

938
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,920
How?
Do you, how do you, how do you

939
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,800
have such a strong view on that
when like you have artificial

940
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,800
kind of, you know, yeah, support
for for mass capital build out

941
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,680
globally for for an external
thesis, then we we like and it's

942
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,040
not demand justified.
It's actually just, you know,

943
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,640
brief wanting to build
stockpiles and strategic

944
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:49,760
strategic.
Independence.

945
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:50,240
It's not.
It's not.

946
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:51,000
Real demand.
It's not, it's.

947
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,520
Strategic independence, yes.
And that's the bit that I mean

948
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,720
like I think you.
Achieve that and then at some

949
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:57,080
point, no one's buying this.
You know what I mean?

950
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:58,240
Like.
Well, that's that's that's a

951
00:44:58,240 --> 00:44:59,360
tin.
Industry back in the day and

952
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,680
like the stockpiles.
Yeah, that's a possibility,

953
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:02,760
right?
So, I mean, what's the United

954
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,600
States goal here?
The goal is to get back to a

955
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,240
normal, more functioning market.
The reality is right now they

956
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:10,120
are relying on China and they
can't afford to be and so

957
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,280
they'll they're paying the price
essentially to do this.

958
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,640
Australian governments leaning
in on their behalf in some ways

959
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,960
to make sure that supply is
available for meet that demand.

960
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:21,920
I don't think we're we're
putting look, you know, I think

961
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,680
yes, the Australian government
takes some risk here.

962
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,800
We don't want to turn on a bunch
of projects that are going to go

963
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:26,880
out of business in the first
months.

964
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,680
I don't think that will happen.
I think they'll make careful

965
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,160
decisions about where they
deploy that capital and the

966
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,480
truth is they're putting about a
billion dollars towards them,

967
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,720
which doesn't go that far.
We're not going to be turning on

968
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:39,200
50 projects.
The reality this is a component

969
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,200
that might help turn on two or
three and help us start build

970
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,760
this industry.
Arafur is already commercial

971
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,320
offtake for about 80 percent,
80% and this last piece will

972
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,760
probably provide the next 10%
which gets them to meet their

973
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,160
requirements of their of their
borrowers and the equity

974
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,440
providers and to make that
investment decision and start

975
00:45:58,440 --> 00:45:59,920
building.
I think that's a good outcome.

976
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,800
So you've got the the off date,
the 500 tons of NDPA oxide that

977
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,360
the government has come in for.
Four years was it?

978
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:08,280
Yes.
A while but.

979
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:13,480
Also the the the EFA and you
know, other credit agencies

980
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,680
effectively government credit
agencies, is that always going

981
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,160
to be the approach, you know,
combining debt don't.

982
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,040
Think they're going to take the
same approach every time?

983
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,080
I don't think so.
I think the route is, look, you

984
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,240
have to rely a bit on this,
which is the route is Australian

985
00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:28,520
governments out having those
conversations with our strategic

986
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,360
allies and strategic partners
and this is the feedback they're

987
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:32,680
getting.
They're making decisions like

988
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:34,760
they're not making.
So why?

989
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,280
Why have they prioritised 3
critical minerals, rare earths,

990
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,480
gallium and and antimony?
The answer is because in the

991
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,720
conversations they're having in
a strategic level with their

992
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:46,960
international partners, because
that's what they're being told

993
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,320
to prioritize, We need these
things.

994
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,280
That's why they've chosen to
prioritize them and that's why

995
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:53,800
they've been given that
attention.

996
00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:57,040
I don't think you're going to
see the Australian government

997
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,440
saying let's do that across the
suite of critical minerals.

998
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,920
They're only going to be doing
that where they're reasonably

999
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:03,960
confident.
They've got strategic partners

1000
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,280
who are saying we need these
things and we want you to

1001
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:08,280
support us to make sure we can
get them.

1002
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,520
I've got to be genuinely
surprised if the CMSR moved into

1003
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,840
the nickel space, which is also
a common right.

1004
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,840
So it's going to be those small
little bespoke, the niche

1005
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:19,440
challenge, strategic.
Resilience, yeah.

1006
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,040
Is there is there a disconnect
between the desire and the

1007
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,080
realities of actually the
extraction?

1008
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,040
Well, I mean the.
Processing it seems to be the

1009
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,200
challenge.
These these these processes are

1010
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,320
always challenging and certainly
there's some learning involved

1011
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,920
here and there's some risk and
no one denies that.

1012
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:38,640
But we've done the work.
These companies have done the

1013
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,000
work and they've got partners
they can work with their work on

1014
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,120
the specification of the product
they need.

1015
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:48,000
So, you know, can we say with a
certainty everything is going to

1016
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,400
go smoothly and commencement
Bates will be commencement

1017
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:50,960
dates?
No.

1018
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,080
Well, that's the case with most
mining projects.

1019
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:54,720
They're out here.
You have to work through your

1020
00:47:54,720 --> 00:47:57,160
process and your metal energy
and all those places to make

1021
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,560
sure you get there.
Yes, this is a more difficult

1022
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,560
space, but it's also a space
that has value beyond its

1023
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,880
economic value.
And that's the bit that I think

1024
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,000
has really made this such a a
focus of governments around the

1025
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,280
world.
Why is critical minerals being

1026
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,440
talked as a focus of governments
around the world?

1027
00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:15,360
Because it's become key to
strategic alliances, key to

1028
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,600
defense technologies and key to
future industries that

1029
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,560
governments are working very
hard to make sure their

1030
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,760
countries get a piece off.
And Australia's at the

1031
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,520
foundation, we've got a known
mining and exploration industry

1032
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,400
that can do these things.
We find the right partners, we

1033
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,280
can be successful here.
Is the is the is the method of

1034
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:36,000
of incentivizing yeah the the
the production of these critical

1035
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,440
minerals the right one like
there there has absolutely been

1036
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,160
some degree of winner picking
here, right Like maybe you

1037
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:43,560
contend with that, maybe maybe
not but.

1038
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,280
Well, we put forward that
forward, so we put forward a

1039
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:47,600
proposal.
So we talked to Australian

1040
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,240
government around this and, and,
and, and, and Neil, I did some

1041
00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:53,640
work with Mandela Partners who
helped us with the production

1042
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,760
tax incentive that was picked up
by the government a few years

1043
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:57,680
ago for value adding of critical
minerals.

1044
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,440
What we said was how do you do
this in a way we're not picking

1045
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,000
with us?
Well, the answer is the

1046
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,800
government and it figures out
what demands there.

1047
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,960
Then they identify the quantity
of what product they need,

1048
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,800
whether that's a, a type of
heavy rare earth or it's a, an

1049
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,680
amount of gallium or whatever.
Essentially.

1050
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,240
Then you put it up in a, into an
auction, a reverse auction.

1051
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:21,080
And companies then essentially
bid and they say we could

1052
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,480
produce this in this time frame
at these costs and suggesting a

1053
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,440
price floor, but also a price
ceiling.

1054
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,880
So the price floor being where
you're subsidized by government

1055
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,560
and the reserve, a price ceiling
being where you pay back, that

1056
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,160
creates situation where you're
making price a bit more

1057
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,720
transparent, gives government
more understanding of where to

1058
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:45,600
put money efficiently and
effectively, and also helps get

1059
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,720
away from having to pick winners
without necessarily being able

1060
00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:52,600
to get a full seat, a full
visibility of the potential on

1061
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:54,480
offer.
And so, you know, we hope

1062
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,320
they'll pick that up.
And indeed that certainly

1063
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,720
contracts for difference is 1 of
the options they've left

1064
00:49:59,720 --> 00:50:02,480
themselves.
And so there are pathways to do

1065
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,200
this, but you've always got to
think about it.

1066
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,640
And we won't put forward things
where we think the taxpayers

1067
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,040
taking unreasonable risk.
You've got to be thoughtful

1068
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,400
about that because public money
and if government's taking a

1069
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,600
risk with it's got to be
thoughtful and considered and

1070
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,920
they've got to understand that
ultimately if that risk doesn't

1071
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,320
work out the way you want it to,
they're stuck buying a product

1072
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,840
they can't use.
Ultimately the worst case

1073
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,880
scenario is government ends up
stockpiling some rare earth,

1074
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:28,600
they'll be able to sell them
somewhere else later on.

1075
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,360
That's not the act we want.
What we want is to get projects

1076
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,000
up, find strategic partners who
need the product and actually

1077
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:36,480
help build this industry in
Australia.

1078
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,760
It's not been easy, but the
Australian government's leaned

1079
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:40,520
in.
I think that's a good thing.

1080
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,520
Do you think like this is my,
my, my assessment of like often

1081
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,800
times where, where government
plays a role in financing

1082
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,120
projects, it's, it's the
exception, not the role that the

1083
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,400
project becomes distressed and
challenging.

1084
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,920
I think if, like if private
markets can't finance it in the

1085
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,920
first place, well, there's
usually a pretty good reason for

1086
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:02,440
that.
And where we get concessional

1087
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,800
finance, fill the funding gap in
many instances.

1088
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:09,560
And like NAFC, CFC, like they've
all got big blow UPS here.

1089
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:15,320
The pro, the project just, you
know, dissolves taxpayer money.

1090
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:19,720
And and as you guys who advocate
for, for the longevity of the,

1091
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,520
the financing environment, like
surely there are repercussions

1092
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,000
when you have poor allocation of
capital and surely that that's

1093
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,640
not good for anyone.
But so think about our

1094
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:30,040
production tax incentive, right?
So that's how we framed it, like

1095
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,200
we want to get evaluating
industry up in Australia.

1096
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,920
But the way we set it up and our
proposal, the way governments

1097
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,080
adopt it is you only get the
credit if you can produce a

1098
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,040
value added product.
So essentially the government

1099
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,760
manages to mitigate its risk by
saying we want you to do this.

1100
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,920
If you're prepared to invest the
capital and do this, there's a

1101
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,400
reward at the end that we can
support you with, but we're only

1102
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,920
going to pay it if you get there
rather than a lot of cases.

1103
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,880
You know, I'm not a a massive
fan of grant funding where

1104
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,680
money's handed out at the start
of the process.

1105
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:02,000
We've got real no idea whether
the project will go or not go,

1106
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,080
whether you, the taxpayers got
no chance for getting that money

1107
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:07,040
back.
It's a grant.

1108
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:10,280
I'd rather see them making, you
know, equitable investments.

1109
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:12,280
And even if they lose their
money, they're no worse off than

1110
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,840
giving it as a grant.
They ought to think more

1111
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,760
thoughtfully about what
financial incentives they use.

1112
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,960
And indeed, we don't propose
things without thinking about

1113
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,760
the potential risk because you
know, we have to be able to

1114
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:28,240
justify to the community and
because their money, how it's

1115
00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:29,800
invested, whether that's a good
thing.

1116
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,200
Why I think this is different
than other places is that

1117
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:37,040
strategic, that strategic risk
pace that is driven governments

1118
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,320
to make decisions that you
wouldn't make out of ordinary

1119
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,920
times from Australia, the United
States and the EU.

1120
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:45,560
It is forcing people to do
things differently.

1121
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,840
And until such time as we create
a situation where the market can

1122
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,440
sort of right itself, the
reality is that's probably the

1123
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,920
pathway forward for a while.
And these are strategic

1124
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,320
industries that have got really
bespoke opaque markets and there

1125
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,880
is a larger market failure at
play and the government's

1126
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:03,360
stepping in.
And they've done that in the

1127
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,440
past historically with state
agreements.

1128
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,080
So the Pilbara is built around
state agreements that were

1129
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,800
signed back in the 60s in WA.
And I wasn't around in the 60s

1130
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:18,200
in WA, but our economy was
pretty small and we had two or

1131
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,840
three massive state agreements
that have got big concessions in

1132
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:25,440
them and those big concessions
are granted to go and get the

1133
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,040
operations up.
And now we're reaping the long

1134
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,840
term benefits.
And I imagine back in the 60s

1135
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,920
people that were aware of those
details, some may have scratched

1136
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,400
their heads and gone well, what
are we doing?

1137
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,040
But.
Those those state agreements

1138
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,880
that the concessions you talk
about what like a bear mind by

1139
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,600
mind kind of basis things, yeah.
They're all, so the Part 1 of

1140
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,720
the issues, the state agreements
is they're all different, right?

1141
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,320
But they're one some of the
consistent things is that they

1142
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,880
they had cheaper water, they had
lower royalties, they had a

1143
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:55,800
whole range of don't.
Pay local government.

1144
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,400
Rights.
They're not in the MRF like it's

1145
00:53:58,480 --> 00:53:59,880
which is the mining rehab fund.
Sorry.

1146
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,840
Yeah, it incentivized the gas
industry as well to be built up

1147
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:04,360
at that time to fund these
projects.

1148
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,760
Yeah, and it's a great.
The the major thing it gave

1149
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:08,960
industry was an ability to
negotiate something that could

1150
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,040
work commercially, but it gave
them certainly.

1151
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,640
And so I think that's one of the
things that in some ways, you

1152
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,160
know, like it it, the state
doesn't want to do state

1153
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:21,280
agreements anymore, but is a is
a partly because the complexity

1154
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:22,760
of managing all the ones we've
got.

1155
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,360
But it is one way of actually
being able to lock some

1156
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,520
certainty for investors and for
companies that basically goes,

1157
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:32,320
oh, that's set in stone, can't
be changed without our

1158
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,000
agreement.
We know what we're getting.

1159
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,880
We're not particularly talking
about decade long investments in

1160
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:41,040
LNG or big iron ore projects.
They think that certainty is

1161
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,960
really valuable.
So, you know, I'm a point of

1162
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:45,720
actually looking at state
agreements again for particular

1163
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:48,720
things, even particularly things
that might be strategic industry

1164
00:54:48,720 --> 00:54:52,400
stuff where they might be the
same scale, but the importance

1165
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:57,160
is still large.
Yeah, if I, if I just think more

1166
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:01,280
11 more time about the, you
know, government's role in in,

1167
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:08,120
in market market market failure.
Nothing's more topical than than

1168
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:13,080
the big refiners who, you know,
smelters deluxe suddenly become

1169
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,200
substantially unprofitable and
then piece meal approach.

1170
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,520
Suddenly they all start to get
subsidized.

1171
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:22,080
And and the you know, the media
will tell you that it's for a

1172
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,000
set period of time.
But like as as a taxpayer in any

1173
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:29,200
jurisdiction, you wonder, well,
no one no wonder they're asking

1174
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:30,840
more for capital gains.
They're just blowing all the

1175
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,520
money on, on subsidizing, you
know, unprofitable industry.

1176
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,040
I think it's it's tough one to
get your head around.

1177
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,480
I mean, I think, I think of all
the nickel industry and

1178
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,720
particularly nickel West in the
West Australian environment, you

1179
00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:46,200
know, those subsidies weren't
that subsidy or those that

1180
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:48,240
support bailout packages weren't
available.

1181
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,960
But equally what's happened with
our smelters and our and our

1182
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,680
metal processing is we've been
operating long term mines that

1183
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:58,960
have you know, no longer
producing the same grades, but

1184
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:03,320
also on very old technology.
And at some point, you actually

1185
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,120
need not just a bailout package
to keep rolling with the same

1186
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,960
stuff, you actually need a big
new investment in new technology

1187
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,880
to make those projects more
efficient and more commercially

1188
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:14,280
viable, which is where does that
come from?

1189
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:15,680
It's not really coming from
government.

1190
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,920
You know, I'm an advocate for
holding on to sovereign

1191
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:21,600
capability, but not really just
pushing the issue down the road

1192
00:56:21,600 --> 00:56:25,040
5 years until we have to.
Somehow we have to find a way of

1193
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,360
figuring out how we're going to
support investment in new

1194
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:29,600
technology so we can keep being
competitive.

1195
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,760
If we don't do that, we always
solve capabilities later rather

1196
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,800
than sooner, just like we did
with with the car industry.

1197
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:40,360
So what we're seeing is a desire
from governments and communities

1198
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,840
and populations to move back a
bit from the globalization we've

1199
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:48,560
had where we've watched a lot of
these industries, value added

1200
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:50,960
industries, manufacturing
industries pushed off seas.

1201
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,840
To bring them back means
government has to be in more

1202
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:56,960
cost.
So it's a bit of an interesting

1203
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,960
sort of push and pull here.
Not all investments are good

1204
00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:04,080
ones, but equally we ought to
think carefully about when we

1205
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:06,360
give up certain industries
because once we give them up,

1206
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:07,720
getting them back is going to be
much harder.

1207
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,840
But equally, simply rolling
along with what we got isn't

1208
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:13,480
going to work for us for much
longer either.

1209
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:15,240
So we've got to be a bit smarter
about the way we spend that

1210
00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:18,040
money.
It feels like a fantastic point

1211
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:19,720
to leave it guys.
We've covered a heap of ground.

1212
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:22,040
Appreciate you making the time
for us for, for sharing your

1213
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,840
perspectives with the audience
and, and yeah, just really

1214
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:27,880
framing where we are in this
moment in Australia and seeing

1215
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:28,920
where we can go forward from
here.

1216
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:30,760
Always a pleasure, still got
some here.

1217
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:33,880
Nothing's.
Unfairable out for now.

1218
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,760
Thanks very much.
Thanks for Warren O'Neal, bit of

1219
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,760
a different episode to what the
money miners might be used to

1220
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,760
JD, but a delight to have that
conversation with Warren O'Neal.

1221
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,600
What did you think of it?
I learned a tremendous amount.

1222
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,080
I mean, how many different
topics do we we speak about and

1223
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,040
these are topics that like you
kind of illustrated there are

1224
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,200
top of mind for mining
companies, for exploration

1225
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,040
companies here in Australia.
These are the issues you need to

1226
00:57:58,040 --> 00:57:59,400
be.
Unfortunately, top of mind for

1227
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:00,920
investors as well.
Yeah, they.

1228
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:02,720
They are indeed.
You need to be across these if

1229
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,840
you're investing in the space
and it's just good to have a

1230
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,920
good grasp on what it all means
and the direction in which we

1231
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:09,480
are travelling.
Do you want to pull your hair

1232
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,480
out?
More or less.

1233
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,000
I'm going to stay optimistic,
proud Australian mate, let's see

1234
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,280
what we can do going forward in
this great country.

1235
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:19,880
I'm.
Actively looking to leave either

1236
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:24,440
secede like W Australia secede
all for that or if that if that

1237
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,960
doesn't happen I'm I'm out of
here just.

1238
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:29,840
Just a light flying of a flag.
See what reaction we get to

1239
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:31,840
that.
Thank you very much for tuning

1240
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,000
in money Miners and also thank
you to Sandy Ground Support who

1241
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,840
we had in the show as well as
Interlinks cost Mine

1242
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:42,640
Intelligence Focus, the Platform
by Market Tech Metals Hub and XE

1243
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:44,400
Capital.
Huduru money miners Huduru.

1244
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,240
Now remember, I'm an idiot.
JD is an idiot.

1245
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,640
If you thought any of this was
anything other than

1246
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,280
entertainment, you're an idiot
and you need to read out

1247
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:53,800
disclaimer.