The 9 Red Flags in Exploration Investing (Roland Gotthard)

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People use dork as this sort of
magic term.

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It's dork compliant.
Dork's just a a code of telling

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people what you've done.
Roland, you're an industry

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outsider.
Do you agree with that?

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Yeah, more or less, JD.
We're at risk of saying a lot of

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things in this episode that
should not be said.

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What role it is.
Welcome to money of mine.

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Thank you so much joining us.
You're prolific in what is, I

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guess your column on LinkedIn
called Joke WTF.

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Thank you so much for joining
us.

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Where?
Yeah.

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I I, I I feel like people kind
of know you just because your

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posts have been absolutely
everywhere.

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What what was the inspiration to
to start writing Joke WTF And

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what is it?
Well, yeah, I, I'm a bit of a

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mat nerd.
And so one part of the the joke

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code is that you have to have a
map of your drilling and it has

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to have coordinates on it.
But I was looking at a map and,

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and it didn't have coordinates
on it and, and it had some

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drilling, but it didn't have all
the drilling.

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And I was like, but that's
pretty lazy.

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You know, I'm like, what the
fuck's going on here?

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How, how did you, how can you
not put in a decent map?

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It's 5 minutes in map info or,
or 5 minutes in QG.

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That's right.
So I was like, oh, come on,

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guys, you can put in a better
map, blah, blah, blah, blah,

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blah, hashtag joke, WTF.
And yeah, a couple of my mates

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were just like, joke WTF?
Yeah, good one, good one.

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You know, And yeah, I've been
pretty vocal on LinkedIn for a

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couple of years.
You know, I guess I started

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calling out a few errors in the
and a few misconceptions in the

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Pilbara nugget thing that
happened back there were

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watermelon seeds.
Yeah, yeah.

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And some of it was, you know,
maps that were wrong.

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Some of it was like, you know,
the sampling theory behind

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nugget seeds was never going to
work.

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You know, you can't sample it to
a you know, to to convince most

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people that you could get a joke
resource.

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And so therefore, what were
people doing?

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But yeah, the the wits 2 point O
hype took over and I was one of

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the few people it was just like,
come on guys, cool your jets.

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And it's, and it's this job WQF
is kind of morphed into, you

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know, geologists have a skill
set which is to be able to

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disentangle the announcements
that are put out by exploration

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companies all the time.
And for some reason, not many

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people other than geologists
ever learn the skill set to be

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able to disentangle those
announcements.

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And what you do is you use your
geologist skill set, you

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disentangle them and explain to
the layman maybe how things have

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been polished or, or or maybe
some areas have been LED there.

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And maybe they're maybe they're
accidental, or maybe they're

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they're not accidental.
Yeah.

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It's a transparency thing.
Yeah, yeah.

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So the, I mean, I guess we
should go over like what, what

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the dork code is for a for a
start, you know, like what is

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the dork in dork WTF?
Because the WTF, you know, it's

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self-explanatory, but you know,
the, the dork code is a

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professional code.
And as, as a competent person,

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you have to have enough
experience in the subject matter

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that you are talking about.
If it's geology, geotechnical,

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metallurgy, engineering, there's
a whole bunch of of things you

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can resource geology that you
can be an expert in or not,

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right?
I, I, you'll never see me

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publishing a resource because I
suck at stats.

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I'm a real geologist, I'm bad at
maths, right?

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So you have to do your time, you
have to do five years minimum in

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order to qualify to become a
competent person.

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But then when you're a competent
person, the standard under the

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joke is that you would feel
comfortable defending yourself

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against your peers.
Now one thing is like who is

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defending themselves in the
industry against their peers on

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a day-to-day basis?
No one, right?

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I'm the peer that now people
have to defend themselves, you

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know, And you know, a couple of
times down the pub, other people

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are like, oh, I've been
agonizing over a announcement

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because I don't want you to
joke.

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WTF me.
And some of it's for, you know,

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for real.
And some of it's a bit of a

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joke, but that's the joke idea
of competence is that you have

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enough experience to be
competent, whatever that means,

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and that you feel would feel
comfortable defending yourself.

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Now, that's very similar to like
a thesis or your own like

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science project at school.
And so one of the things like I

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like to do is go into the table
one and Table 2.

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And that is literally like a
high school science, you know,

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methods, results, conclusions.
The methods are in the table

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one.
They're hidden at the back of

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the announcement, right?
But that's how they have

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generated the data that goes
into the announcement.

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Now in the real world on the
ASX, your competent person has

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to sign off on that.
It has to in theory be at least

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an E signature on APDF or if
preferably a a wet signature on

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a on an actual declaration at
that the company should be

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keeping in a folder somewhere or
on a on a hard drive somewhere.

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Now I know for a fact that it
doesn't always happen, that one

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of my mates, and I won't say who
was just driving down the road

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in the Bush and he gets phoned
up by a director or a company

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secretary, whatever it was.
And they're like, oh, did you

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see today's announcement?
We put you in as the competent

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person right now.
That's that's a breach of the

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Jolt code.
It's a breach of the ASX.

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But it happens, right?
Competent people are working in

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especially at the junior end in
two or three person operations

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that where where it's like I was
another client this morning and

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it's literally a hole in the
wall office in West Perth with

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three disks.
That's the managing director,

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the expiration manager and then
they're asking me some

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questions.
And so the way it should work is

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that you do your work and you
provide the competent person, if

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he's not doing it this himself,
with supporting documents to

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underlie the market information
that they're communicating.

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So behind every drill
announcement, there should be a

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database filled with information
from drill logs.

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And that the part of the jerk is
that it's done in a professional

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manner.
So what?

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So you know that people are
logging the core properly, You

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know that they're marking the
meters properly, they're doing

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the core blocks properly,
they're measuring the the

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recovery properly.
And someone has signing off on

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that saying it has been done
properly and is fit for use in

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the announcement in the form and
manner in which it's

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communicated.
Now that's the theory is that

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there is a, there is actually
some information behind this.

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There's a report behind it.
Someone who is a competent

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person or under the direction of
a competent person has done the

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work and someone signs off on
it.

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And that's the little disclaimer
that you've got in your ASX

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announcement.
And and that is then put into

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the table one and Table 2.
And it's like bearing your dirty

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laundry.
Sometimes the methods and

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sometimes the work that goes
into something is just bad or

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misguided or there's an error in
the method or it hasn't been

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properly put into the table one
and table two.

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People love not applicable.
You know, that one the other day

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was what's the drill recovery in
diamond hole?

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Not holes, not applicable.
I'm like, mate, you do get core

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loss, all right?
The drillers put blocks in the

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wrong way around.
People drop trays of core and

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just stuff it back in and they
don't tell you.

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Now, are you saying that none of
that ever happened in your drill

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program?
That's apparently what the CP

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signs off at.
Can you talk a bit more about

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some of the pressures that you
sort of might sort of see when

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you seek about your mates who
might be worried that you'll

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call them out on some of their
work knowing that they're going

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to give it their their all to do
a good job?

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And one thing that I've noticed
a lot recently is people are

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recycling the table one and
table twos from one announcement

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to another and sometimes from
one company to another.

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There might be the same
consultant working for two

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companies and someone gets an
assay result in for some drill

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holes.
So what do you got to do to make

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an announcement, especially if
it's price sensitive?

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Well, let's say it's some
visible gold or massive

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sulfides, right?
The, the drill, the, let's say

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it's a core drill.
The core has been drilled.

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It's put in a box that
geologists rocks up at 9:00 AM

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in the morning.
And I've done this myself, rock

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up at 6:00 AM in the morning and
there's a meter of massive

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sulphide.
And it's a big deal for the

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company.
It's the only thing the

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company's done in two years.
It's drilled this hole because

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it took that long to get the
hole drilled for whatever

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reason.
And all of a sudden, you know,

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you take a photo and you send it
on an SMS to your boss while we

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just hit massive.
And, and that the ASX, I think

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believes that the company can
instantaneously almost or within

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the space of a trading halt,
which is 3 days.

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Well, the company should go into
a trading halt and then you've

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got a three day period to get
everything together.

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Now, if you've just drilled the
stick of core, you don't know

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exactly how deep it is until you
put that on the rack and you

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measure it.
And then you've got, because

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it's a quite sensitive bit of
information and you've got 3

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days of time pressure on you,
you've got, there's a lot of

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pressure to get this turned
around quickly in the field.

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And then that's got to go back
to the office and the

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exploration manager's got to,
he's trying to compile a, a, a,

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a, a story around it, trying to
put together a cross section and

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a map and, you know, and a table
one and a table 20.

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How did you cut it?
Have you even cut it yet?

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How did you log it?
What, what's the assay methods

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we're going to use?
Have you done the QAQC samples

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according to things or etcetera,
etcetera.

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So if a competent person and a
company, which is, let's say a

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small company, a couple of
people isn't prepared for this

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eventuality, it's an, it is
bedlam, it's chaos.

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To put this together within the,
the time frame that the ASX

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gives you 3 day suspension and
it can, it can happen without

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any warning.
You don't even think you're

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going to hit something and then
bang, you've got a, a chunk of

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VG and, and that's where you
also get into, you know, the,

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you know, sometimes you hit VG
and there's no announcement.

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And one of the questions would
be why?

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You know, someone has had to
decide if it's price sensitive

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or not.
And that's the board.

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The board also sets the, the
direction of, of like the

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communication strategy.
How do who's deciding what is

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defined as high grade and world
beating and world class, right.

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I mean, to use one example,
Wycliffe Minerals the other week

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drilled a hole at Danvers and
they said it was the best copper

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result in the last 50 years.
And, and I of course commented

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on that because I was like, is
it, is it though?

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You know, like, it's good, but
is it right?

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So, but yeah, so there's this
interface between the guys on

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the coalface and the competent
person.

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He needs to get the
documentation properly done.

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And that often is incomplete at
the time of press and also the

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CP and the board.
And, you know, there are a lot

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of companies which would be,
say, pumping out a drilling

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announcement every week or two.
And they're they're they're

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clearly, you know, trying to get
some traction in the market, to

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put it one way, or just pumping
the shit out of it in the

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another way, right, Depending on
on how news.

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Flow.
Yeah, well, news flow exactly.

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Keeping the ducks fed.
Continuous disclosure.

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Exactly.
These are the but is it?

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What?
What influences bad disclosure?

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I think that there's one part's
laziness, right?

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It takes a lot of effort to put
a really good solid piece of

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work together.
You know, like to to finish a

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resource, for instance, your
maiden resource on a gold

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00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:05,440
project that could be two or
three years worth of work.

224
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,200
Now you need to release
something before you know what

225
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,800
is there, right.
So the draw code's got

226
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,040
expiration targets and, and you
know, that can be very wibbly

227
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,880
wobbly and, and I love looking
at expiration targets.

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00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,280
And so you, you sort of go,
yeah, there's a, it's a

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00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,760
judgement.
And I'm, I'm not saying anyone's

230
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,040
particularly wrong, but we've
got a, you know, it's worth

231
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,480
asking a question.
And these are public releases,

232
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,920
by the way, right?
If you're not willing to have

233
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,320
someone question you in public,
don't put it out in public.

234
00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:44,120
If you have to by law make sure
that you've done dotted the IS

235
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,440
and crossed the T's and you know
it.

236
00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,520
It's up to the board to make
that decision as well.

237
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,520
Set as a corporate strategy
about how are we going to

238
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:54,840
communicate with our
shareholders?

239
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,800
What are what are what are we
trying to do here?

240
00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,560
Are we trying to get the share
price up?

241
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:04,760
I mean, yeah, that's how people
make money in the junior end of

242
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,000
the market mostly is just
pumping and dumping to put it

243
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,120
one way, or trying to get the
share price up to raise some

244
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,240
money to reduce dilution.
Let's go drilling.

245
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,000
Let's one thing that I think is
funny is companies, which are

246
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,200
gold companies getting into
nickel and then getting into

247
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,360
rare earths and flavour of the
month.

248
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:29,480
Loving gallium at the moment.
Love gallium, best metal in the

249
00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:34,280
planet and it's going to be used
for defence industries.

250
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,040
If you ask one guy aerospace, if
you ask the next guy, all you've

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00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,680
got to do is like, you know, and
one thing I say is like, you can

252
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:46,880
tell when gallium's hot, who's
serious is because they actually

253
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,000
go and explore for it.
But you can also tell who isn't

254
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,640
because all of a sudden
everyone's a gallium explorer

255
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,840
and all they've done is go into
their database and sort by

256
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,120
gallium.
I mean, and then they go, oh,

257
00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,920
we've identified gallium in, in
bauxite, for instance.

258
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,920
You know, here's the hot tip.
Gallium and aluminium have a set

259
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,760
ratio and it very, very rarely
differs from that.

260
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,160
So if you've got a lot of
aluminium, you'll have a lot of

261
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,720
gallium.
Now what does that mean in

262
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,440
realistic terms in, in terms of
are we going to be, are these

263
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:19,520
guys mining or are they just
mining the market?

264
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,360
Mining the market.
That's cute.

265
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,040
Try mining with margins.
They they now industry.

266
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,160
You need more than just good
intentions in a drill rig.

267
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,920
You need power.
Reliable, affordable, ready when

268
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,880
you need it.
If you're serious about mining,

269
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,040
that's what you need.
Matt, I don't know about you,

270
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,720
but for me, Crossbound, your
energy comes to mind.

271
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,720
These guys are delivering solar,
they're delivering wind.

272
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,160
They are delivering battery
solutions for mines all across

273
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,080
the globe.
They built these hyper power

274
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,760
stations all over Africa where
power is notoriously unreliable

275
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,960
mate.
And now the kicking goals all

276
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,840
over Australia.
Mines across the country.

277
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:57,680
Gets better though mate.
Here's the bit.

278
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,120
And this is the thing that CF OS
out there will love.

279
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:01,920
You don't even need to pay for
it upfront.

280
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,280
Build own operate mate.
They will take on the CapEx for

281
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:06,920
you.
All you have to worry about is

282
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,760
plugging in that clean reliable
energy.

283
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,760
CFO gets to keep his bonus mate,
serious miners use cross

284
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,840
boundary energy and the rest.
They're just mining the market.

285
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,840
Tim Taylor's the man JDI shook
his hand last week and I've got

286
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,480
an electric shock.
That's how much of A power guru

287
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,840
Tim is.
Head to cross boundary.com.

288
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,760
Get in touch with Tim Taylor if
you're serious about power and

289
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,840
serious about mining.
Go CBA.

290
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:35,400
I, I love long sections because
it's, it's kind of this

291
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,880
interface between science and
art.

292
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:44,800
There is an art to making a
decent long section and you

293
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:51,160
know, a long section can, if
it's done properly, display the

294
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,640
shoot direction in a, in a mine.
But there's, there's so many

295
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,800
different ways of doing it and
you see these long sections turn

296
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,200
up and, and it's just clearly,
you know, the guy's got his

297
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,920
pencil and he's just
artistically putting in a little

298
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,520
wibble and a wobble.
And, you know, anyone whose

299
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,359
name's Justin doesn't like me
because I keep picking on their

300
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,880
long sections.
But but yeah, like, I think why

301
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,440
would you justify there being a
wiggle in there?

302
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:22,480
What is there a fault?
Is there a structure or is it

303
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,640
just that you've got the, the
Max gold down hole and then you

304
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,440
want to make a nice solid
contour around it and then just

305
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,960
Chuck an open arrow.
The the, the open arrow is, is

306
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:34,880
always, it's always open it
right.

307
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,960
So yeah, these are the some of
the the tropes on the ASX that

308
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,280
that people, it's just the way
that everyone's communicating in

309
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,280
mining and sometimes there's no
real science behind it.

310
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,360
I'm keen to explore these these
tropes, but first I want to

311
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,640
address the the, I suppose like
the defence of a company is that

312
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:57,960
their cost of capital is their,
their share price.

313
00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:02,000
So they have to promote because
they need a low cost of capital

314
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:07,400
for, you know, future, yeah,
future creation that to benefit

315
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,120
all shareholders.
So they've got to promote.

316
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,560
But there's this grey line,
right between promotion and

317
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,200
dishonest disclosure.
There's there's a few things

318
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:17,920
that I think are black and
white, yeah.

319
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,880
And a lot of these are covered
in dual code as well.

320
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,160
And, and some of the guidance
notes, you know, some of the,

321
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,680
some of the things that that get
misused, for instance, would be

322
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:35,960
portable XRF magic gun.
The days before PXRFS were

323
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,920
horrific because you'd have to
wait for the assays.

324
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:42,560
And back then, obviously you
could get results within a week

325
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,280
or two weeks.
So it wasn't a terrible wait

326
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,400
like, you know, 2022 when it was
8 weeks for assays, right.

327
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:54,640
So the, the PXRF guns are great
for characterising rocks, but

328
00:18:54,640 --> 00:19:00,160
when you get a chunk of massive
sulfide, your eye's going to be

329
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,640
drawn to the shiniest bit and
you're going to ZAP it and it's

330
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,200
going to come back and, and it's
going to be high grade.

331
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,200
Now this is where you, you start
getting into that whole like

332
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,720
what, what's a, what information
is price sensitive.

333
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,760
And it's like, well, you've got
to stick a core and it's got a

334
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:19,760
nice little yellow bit of chalk
of pyrite.

335
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:25,000
If I ZAP that and I get 8%, that
then is, you know, almost, you

336
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,720
almost justify having to make an
announcement of about an hour,

337
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,960
it's 8%.
So you ZAP it and you've got a

338
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,440
massive sulfide.
You get up to 8% copper, bam,

339
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,320
out it goes.
And you know, it's like they cut

340
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,800
it.
And there's one example recently

341
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,800
where they had up to I think it
was 6 1/2% golden deeps.

342
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:52,000
And you know, the, the draw code
comes, falls apart here because

343
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,560
you can just put a disclaimer in
there and you can describe the

344
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,160
methods and everything like
that, but they cut it and it was

345
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,120
like .15 or something.
So it, it can be extremely

346
00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:06,360
unrepresentative sampling.
And then the, the, the company's

347
00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:11,440
got to have a a bit of maturity,
I think in, in that grey line

348
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,040
about saying, well, OK, we're
not actually assaying.

349
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,280
This, this isn't an assay to
report.

350
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,040
It's like someone's just zapped
a piece of rock and we know

351
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,400
there's copper because we, we
saw the copper, we zapped the

352
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,280
copper.
Let's just wait, let's be mature

353
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,080
and, and step back, let the
process run its course.

354
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:34,040
You know, I understand companies
need to get the share price up,

355
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,680
but, but this is a chicken and
egg thing.

356
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,840
It's like, are you getting the
share price up by the result of

357
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,360
work or are you doing work to
get the share price up?

358
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,680
The and there's two different
things there.

359
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,680
One is, for instance, yeah,
directed specials, drilling

360
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,640
holes down the dip in the
mineralisation.

361
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,920
It's called the directed special
because back in the 80s people

362
00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:01,520
would drill down the the dip in
mineralisation to generate and

363
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,400
the share price goes up and the
performance rights best.

364
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,480
Good old days.
Yeah, not so good.

365
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,360
It's the good modern days,
right?

366
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,120
So I just.
Bet the title of our daily

367
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:17,600
newsletter.
So, you know, people are still

368
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,720
drilling director specials even
like a couple of weeks ago, not

369
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,760
to harp on white Cliff, nickel,
white Cliff metals these days,

370
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,480
but yeah, they drilled a hole
which was down deep.

371
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,920
Now there's.
A quick way, your average punter

372
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:37,680
can sort of suss that out.
Well, this is where where I I

373
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,280
did have a bit to say on, On the
White Cliff announcement.

374
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:47,400
And like a lot of these things
are complicated multi element

375
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:53,240
sort of problems is that, you
know, they picked up a project

376
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,920
and it came with old 1960s
drilling and some younger

377
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:04,560
drilling AT272011.
So sometimes you can't find the

378
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,720
records of the old drilling and
you know, it's been drilled, but

379
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,960
there's no records or the
records are very poor.

380
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,960
They're poorly described.
There's no methodology, right?

381
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,640
That all should go in the table
one and table two.

382
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,200
We couldn't find all of the
data.

383
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,400
We're not sure what the methods
were.

384
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,200
And you see that a lot.
They should, the, the drill

385
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,320
holes should be on the map,
right?

386
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,520
They, they should be on a map
and they were on some maps from

387
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,000
Wycliffe, but not all maps.
They should.

388
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:43,080
If you drill a, a hole on a
section and it's in this case 15

389
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:47,280
meters away from the nearest
historical hole, if it's not on

390
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,120
the section, you've, you've sort
of you're clipping the view of

391
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,600
your section to exclude it for a
reason, right?

392
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,480
So, and I'm like, hang on,
they've got a hole which is

393
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,120
drilling the opposite direction
to all the other holes.

394
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,800
Why is that?
Are they testing for an

395
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,800
alternative dip on it?
Well, let's have a look at the

396
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,520
other holes and you can compile
that data and it takes a little

397
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,960
bit of time, but you realize
that the, the ore body or the

398
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,480
mineralization, I should say,
dips one way they've drilled

399
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:24,000
down it and they should have
reasonably, I would say not

400
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,400
drilled that way because they
they would know it was down dip.

401
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:30,840
So what, how did that happen?
I'm not sure I, I can only

402
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,160
speculate, right?
But that that's what I'm sort of

403
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,800
doing is like going.
But the share price flew.

404
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:38,760
It flew.
Well, yeah, because if the.

405
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,200
Ambitions were to to create
short term.

406
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,920
Hire the best result in 50 years
it.

407
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,040
Worked and there was a cap raise
off the back of it and it's

408
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,480
repeat that's.
Just coincidence, isn't it?

409
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,760
Yeah.
So, but yeah, like the other,

410
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,560
the bigger question is like, is
this the behaviour of a company

411
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,600
that's going to be mining or is
it a company that's mining the

412
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:04,200
the stock market?
So I'm not sure it's early days,

413
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,520
but yeah, you, I think, you
know, punters need the, I think

414
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,840
your your average taxi driver,
for instance, or Uber driver

415
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:19,000
these days who's taken a punt
and gold's running hot.

416
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,800
How do they know a good gold
project from a bad gold project?

417
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:27,160
Geologists like me can, can look
at at at the whole information

418
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:32,280
and, and say in WA, I even go
diving into way mix right into

419
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:37,520
the, the government data
repository online and pulling in

420
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,440
the old holes, checking them for
how deep the where the gold is.

421
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,160
Old cross sections, old stock
market releases.

422
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:45,800
There.
There can be a lot of work that

423
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,240
can, that you might need to do
as due diligence.

424
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,120
And, and I know that a lot of
people don't do it.

425
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:56,720
They you know, it, it, it's
mobile phone LED stock market

426
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,840
these days.
Everyone can be trading on on

427
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,760
their phone and and a few
minutes you might miss the the

428
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,960
pump and dump or the the big the
the someone comes out with

429
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,320
massive sulfides you buy and and
everything.

430
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,400
So but yeah, how you need to
know what you're doing.

431
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,440
You need to have that knowledge
and training and, and 22 decades

432
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:22,120
of, of time in the trenches of
and for some, sometimes some

433
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:26,440
pretty dodgy places, right, that
I've worked for and, and some

434
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,440
pretty dodgy people that I've
worked for who are still, you

435
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:37,640
know, So, yeah, there's a bit of
bit of like there's an old

436
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,480
veteran knowledge here that I
can use to sort of identify a

437
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,360
few things.
And it, it just, sometimes it,

438
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,080
you just sort of think that
doesn't quite seem 100% legit.

439
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,320
And then you start digging and
then you start going into the,

440
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,160
into the geology and, and, and
things start, Yeah.

441
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,880
And you get a bit of a feeling.
And, and so, you know, sometimes

442
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,800
it's taken me a week or two
worth of work to come up with a

443
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,360
few few posts.
You know, I did one recently on

444
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:11,480
a rare earth explorer and big
long form article.

445
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,280
And, and that was, that was a
lot of digging and researching.

446
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,120
And I know not everyone's got a
lot of time to do it, and that's

447
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,760
fair enough, but. 10 The 1010
Breeze, Yeah.

448
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,240
Yeah, 10.
Yeah, and and everything.

449
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,840
CRML, yeah.
That was a lot of digging.

450
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,520
You do enough digging and at
some point you're going to need

451
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,360
ground support.
And the ground support guru

452
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,960
Derek Heard of Sandvik Ground
Support recently shared this

453
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,760
with us.
Your most proud moment.

454
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,120
I mean, you go back to some of
the early day things, you know,

455
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,600
working with clients and having
some some wins and shared wins

456
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,400
up in like Mount Isa and things
like that.

457
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,680
It felt like a partnership
working with those team up

458
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:49,800
there.
You know, when I went up there

459
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,440
in 98 to 2002 sort of thing, it
really felt like a partnership.

460
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,000
What were you?
So what were you actually doing

461
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,800
there?
So I was managing a small branch

462
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,600
up there.
So we had the depot in town and

463
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,560
we were literally the the vendor
managed system.

464
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,360
So we were delivering product
just across the road on trucks.

465
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,560
You know, we were going
underground doing the testing.

466
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,880
You really felt part of, you
know, that whole ecosystem that

467
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:12,920
now and eyes and mines were
running.

468
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,160
It was really, really great.
And you know, we delivered some

469
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,520
big outcomes and at that time
there was a number of

470
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,720
improvements going through the
the industry, things like resin

471
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,040
bolting and things like that.
Being part of driving that

472
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,600
through the industry at that
time was really cool.

473
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,960
I hope to love something one day
as much as Derek Kurt loves

474
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,400
ground support.
Back to Roland, So in the red

475
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,720
flags list, we've got we've got
the directors special in there

476
00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:41,800
and we've got the lack of, you
know, historic trillion kind of

477
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,360
mentioned or glossed over kind
of disclosed a shine selective

478
00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:49,200
reporting or overly socialized
intersections.

479
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:50,760
What do you mean by this point,
Roland?

480
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:55,640
SO11 recent example and
sometimes I just get a bee in my

481
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,800
bonnet about about things.
And one of them and for no

482
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:05,080
particular reason, but was
Coonenberry and they were coming

483
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,240
out with you know, 200 plus
meters at 1G.

484
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:14,160
But most of that was a much
smaller section of it at very

485
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,040
high grade.
And then a lot of what I would

486
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,880
think would be subgrade
material.

487
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,000
And then they just average it
all out when you report and, and

488
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,920
there's a section in the Table 1
data aggregation methods, right?

489
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,000
Is how have you decided what
your intersection is?

490
00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:35,080
Is it, are we just going to use
everything within this

491
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,080
particular geological unit and
just take the lot, right?

492
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,000
So, and that's, that's valid for
some types of ore bodies like

493
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,280
iron ore, you might just go,
well, we can't or it might be a

494
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,360
minimum mining width, right?
We've got to take it all.

495
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,280
So we're going to average
everything between the hanging

496
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,520
wall and the football and that's
what we're going to report.

497
00:28:55,360 --> 00:29:00,000
And so it becomes 100 metres at
.9 or something.

498
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,680
And even though most of it might
be a couple of metres and that

499
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,920
might be, that might be
completely valid.

500
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,080
You know, some of the, the gold
industry at the moment's running

501
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,800
into giant mills being fed by
lower and lower grade material.

502
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,880
You know, Takula, Sorry Tamula,
you know 6,000,000 tonne per

503
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:25,000
annum point, less than .7 head
grade .65 I think it is right?

504
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:31,240
That'll be miles and miles of
.4G and a couple of veins 1 and

505
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,880
twos and threes and fives.
Doesn't matter, it all averages

506
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,560
out.
We're going to make money.

507
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,240
Who cares?
You, you socialise it.

508
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,280
But when you're in exploration
and you know, in wars are

509
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,440
relatively small, I'm sure the
guys at Canonbury would

510
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:50,040
disagree, but relatively small
sheer hosted granite

511
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,640
mineralisation.
And it's got some VG in it, some

512
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,480
visible gold.
That's true.

513
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,600
It's got some nice high grade
intersections.

514
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,760
That's true.
But they're reporting 200

515
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,040
metres, right?
So when you actually look at

516
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,160
where the high grade is, it's
it, it seems to be all down low.

517
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,560
So the, the question I've, I
would have there is like, why do

518
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,720
you need to have a 200 metre
intersection?

519
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,640
And the other part about
Coonenberry was that they were

520
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,840
drilling it from the east, the
north and the South and the

521
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,600
West.
So I'm like, no one does that.

522
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,960
I, I know, for instance, I was
told that by someone that he got

523
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,000
fired by Ed issues because he's,
he suggested drilling a hole the

524
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,560
other way and, and repeat.
This is this is a bit of law

525
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,480
that I was told in the industry
and and Ed issues apparently

526
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,200
fired this guy for suggesting
that he turned the drill around

527
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,720
because that's a sign that you
don't know what's going on and

528
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,160
it's A and you've failed have.
Some discoveries been made that

529
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:51,000
way.
They have but, but so one of the

530
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,000
one of the things like I, I was
like, OK, so they're drilling it

531
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,160
from the, the, the deposit was
drilled from the southeast to

532
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,120
the northwest, almost
everything.

533
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,800
And then, yeah, Canonbury comes
and then they there was a

534
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,680
historical hole drilled from the
southwest to the northeast and

535
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,520
that had a huge intersection at
3 1/2 grams in it and everything

536
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,680
else was low grade.
And yeah, so that needs

537
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,360
answering.
That question needs answering.

538
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,000
Why did that one hole drilled in
a different way get the get a

539
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,320
massive hit?
Is it a fair?

540
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,880
Is it, is it fair?
Like I remember with Azure,

541
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,400
right, I think they had put 1
hole kind of down the guts.

542
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,600
But at that point they're
actually just testing depth

543
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,520
extension.
They didn't know the depth, how

544
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:35,920
how deep it was at that point in
time.

545
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,480
Yeah.
And also in nickel, people can

546
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,080
drill down the guts of the ore
body or parallel with the ore

547
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,600
body, parallel with the dip as a
platform for electromagnetic

548
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,400
surveys, right.
So at spotted coal that was

549
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:59,240
found spotted coal was a nickel
deposit commodity in a in a

550
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,360
channel.
I'm not going to pillory myself

551
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,600
on the geology here, but it, it
went down, there was a granite

552
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,120
sill and then the idea was that
it continued below, but it was

553
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,200
very risky to test.
And so they drilled parallel

554
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,520
with the ore body and they just
kept drilling beyond that.

555
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:22,800
And then they put their EM probe
down and it lit up a conductor

556
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,640
underneath the granite sill and
then they turned around and

557
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,680
drilled it the right way.
So there are reasons you do it.

558
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,200
Getting met samples is one
reason that you might drill down

559
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,960
the guts of The thing is go
well, I need 300 or 600 or or

560
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,600
two tonnes of of samples.
You know, I was involved in a

561
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,200
vanadium development company and
we were drilling vertically down

562
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:51,720
a vertical ore body just to get
material for metallurgy, right?

563
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,520
So there are reasons to do it,
but it should be apparent, or at

564
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,880
least it should be stated by the
company that that's what you're

565
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,520
doing rather than drilling down
the guts of it, right?

566
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,360
So you want to disclose true
width when you're doing

567
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,880
something that feels?
Like it's true, width can be

568
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,840
extremely difficult to estimate
to estimate early on because

569
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,400
things could be folded and you
don't know they're folded.

570
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:18,880
You know, they might wander in
dip and you might be drilling

571
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,760
something that you think is
dipping one way and then it

572
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,000
might fold and then dip the
other way.

573
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,040
And it's only until you drill
enough holes and get a, a solid

574
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,800
model together that you can do
true width.

575
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,160
So I, I very, very rarely would,
would peg people for not having

576
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,560
true width because once you say
true width, well, that's the

577
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,080
truth.
And and the truth in geology,

578
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:42,480
there's, there's never truth.
Yeah.

579
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,920
Well, yeah, there's, there's
infinite numbers of infinite

580
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,800
colours of blue sky for geos,
right.

581
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,400
Yeah.
So, so, yeah, there's a lot of

582
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,320
carve outs that that I suppose
in a way that carve outs or, or

583
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,640
reasons why people may not
include certain information in

584
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,440
disclosures or, or, and the
competent person would be

585
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,680
sitting there going, mate, I
just can't say that and and they

586
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,800
don't put it in there, but yeah,
yeah, going, yeah.

587
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:18,960
So why did Penenberry have to
drill it from north to South and

588
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,000
then east to West and West to
east?

589
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:25,080
They've now apparently settled
on One Direction based on the

590
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,400
last couple of holes they've
drilled.

591
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,800
But yeah, it's a, it's a valid
question to ask because if

592
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:35,199
you've got to drill a deposit
from 4 separate directions, you

593
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:37,920
know, it's a little, the ghost
of Ed issues would be in my ear

594
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,679
going, you're fired.
You don't know what's going on.

595
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:41,920
He's still alive.
He's not dead yet.

596
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:47,000
No, but, but yeah, like so, so
like that, that's a good

597
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,719
question is like why?
Why are they drilling it from

598
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,440
four ways?
Why don't they know there's

599
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,320
historic core?
Have they not gone back to the

600
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,880
historic core?
They were putting out core

601
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,480
photos.
I love core photos.

602
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,800
In fact, I think more companies
should put out more core photos

603
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:04,920
on the.
Why?

604
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,240
You can look at it at how
someone's laid out their core

605
00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:12,240
tray and look at how they've
done their meter marks.

606
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,200
Is the core oriented?
You know, is there an Ori line

607
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,880
on it?
Are the core blocks OK?

608
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,160
Does it look like the the
recovery is good?

609
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:26,160
The you know, you each tray is
1.1 meters long, so you can

610
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,680
measure it out with you in paint
with by measuring pixels.

611
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,880
You can even go that's, you
know, the meter marks are a

612
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,080
meter apart, right?
So you can actually look at the

613
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,320
quality of the work that's going
in at the company.

614
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,480
And sometimes it comes up a
little short and there's a few

615
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,640
little quibbles that one might
have.

616
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,720
But you know, like I've, I've
done so much core in my life and

617
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,880
the core photos that I put out,
I make sure that core's oriented

618
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,320
properly and that the RE line's
visible, the meter marks are

619
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,440
visible, that all the
information's on the core.

620
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,840
And you can look at it at
someone's core photo on the ASX

621
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:11,240
and go, these guys are doing
really good work, or maybe

622
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:15,320
they're not right.
And so, yeah, that's I guess one

623
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,160
of the problems with disclosure
is that what you disclose can

624
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,760
tell as much about you as it
tells about the rocks.

625
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,160
You know, how how companies
describe their, what they're

626
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:33,080
doing describes as much their
own strategy and philosophy and,

627
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:38,080
and, and approach and attention
to detail, you know, in, in how

628
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,160
they describe the geology.
And also, you know, at the other

629
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,960
end of the scale, there might be
Great Western exploration was,

630
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:49,320
was putting pretty much
scientific papers out on the

631
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:55,320
Urea basin in 20/10/2012, right?
It's probably a little bit too

632
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,160
much for the average punter.
Great reading for me, gives me

633
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,920
some great ideas.
But it's like, why?

634
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:07,000
Why would you be writing this
huge basically thesis on the,

635
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,160
the rocks of an area?
It's not well, is it because

636
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,240
you're trying to educate you
investors?

637
00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:18,360
There is an ego thing or are you
just so a super rock nerd just

638
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,600
can't shut up about rocks,
right?

639
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:22,600
Just has to write down this new
theory.

640
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,400
But it's also the risk there is
that you've got, and I don't

641
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,400
want to knock companies for
having a a new theory that

642
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,640
you're trying to explore for,
right, a model that you're

643
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,000
exploring for, but you run the
risk of drilling it and finding

644
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,920
out the models wrong.
You know, like safe yesterday

645
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,800
LGM came out and they were
drilling some conductive and and

646
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,480
EM bodies out in the Thompson
origin and they've got their

647
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,320
theories and they drill the
hole.

648
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,200
It was really encouraging
results, I thought.

649
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,160
But you know, it, it does run
the risk of like you've got an

650
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,480
idea, you go, you test it, the
idea is wrong.

651
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,880
And then you have to admit to
the ASX and your investors,

652
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,440
yeah, we got it wrong.
And and I think that a lot of

653
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,520
companies are afraid that you
can't ever be seem to be wrong.

654
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,600
And that's where, you know, the,
the old classic buried in the

655
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,800
quarterly happens.
You know, people go out, they

656
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,280
drill a hole and there's just
dead silence.

657
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,640
And and and it turns up buried
at the back end of the quarterly

658
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,960
as a list of drill hole results.
And that's another thing as well

659
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,520
is like you have to list your
collars, not only put them on a

660
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,320
map, and it has to be an
appropriate map and an

661
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,800
appropriate scale.
For instance, trig minerals,

662
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:49,640
recently, the Antimony project
in the US, they've got this map

663
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,400
in there for sure.
But like there's this tiny

664
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,160
little bit in the middle.
That's their project.

665
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,520
And you even if you zoom in, you
can't actually tell what the

666
00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,440
geology is, what's going on.
You know, it's like, that's not

667
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,360
a good map.
Doesn't pass my job.

668
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,640
WTF test?
I'm like, come on, guys, you

669
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,160
know, And then they.
Bigger maps.

670
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,200
Yeah, and and.
Why are maps so important for

671
00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:14,520
disclosure here?
Well, we're we're exploring

672
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,280
rocks and rocks and your
tenement is your asset.

673
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:24,200
So you want to be able to
demonstrate in a map and it

674
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,000
might be the most over
interpreted map ever.

675
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,360
You may it may demonstrate your
theories more than reality,

676
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:34,360
right.
But at least put a map out and

677
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:39,840
you know, it's also the, the
punters have paid whoever bought

678
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,440
the shares and the last cat
roads, they paid you to drill

679
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,200
holes.
So why aren't you putting the

680
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,160
holes on a map so they can tell
where the holes were drilled,

681
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:49,440
right?
Why?

682
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,160
Why are they?
One thing that that that's I've

683
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:57,840
been sort of saying a little bit
is like, if a company's not

684
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,080
telling you the truth about what
they're doing.

685
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,920
They're lying to you.
Why would you invest in a

686
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,600
company where someone's lying to
you about something, even if

687
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,880
it's a live omission instead of
omission?

688
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:13,360
If someone drills 100 holes and
they put 20 on a map and they

689
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,760
maybe don't even release all the
holes, right?

690
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,400
Sometimes you see lists of holes
from one to 100 and there's

691
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,680
twenty holes in the list.
Where's the other 80 that were

692
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,040
drilled, right?
Did they get any results?

693
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,680
Did they not get any results?
Right?

694
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:35,640
There's no shame in, I would
think releasing 100 holes out of

695
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,200
100 holes that got no, no
significant results or, or

696
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,480
subgrade or whatever, or only a
few get a get a good result.

697
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,880
I mean, that's what you were
paid to do is take a a risk on

698
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,440
the project.
So, yeah, put them on a map,

699
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:53,640
make sure the map's got your
geology on it so you can, if

700
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,560
we're looking for a nickel, you
want to see an ultramatic rock

701
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:02,400
on the map, put it on the map.
If it's not on the map, do you

702
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,360
have ultramatic rocks?
What do you got?

703
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,920
What?
You know, it's not just because

704
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,200
I'm curious about the geology.
I'm like, well, what?

705
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,080
What is the rock you're looking
for?

706
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,680
Is it on the map?
Can you demonstrate the presence

707
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,160
of it in any way, shape or form?
And I know that sometimes it's

708
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,000
all undercover, but there's an A
magnetic anomaly.

709
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,280
Interpret it, put it on the map.
A couple of the other red flags

710
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,120
we've got to mention.
Firstly, metallurgy or sort of

711
00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:34,520
scant reporting on.
Yeah, You know, the mining

712
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,320
industry and mining in general
has generally depleted the easy

713
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,080
to get stuff right.
So if you're looking at gold

714
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,360
hemi, for instance, like 10
years ago, 20 years ago,

715
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,840
anything that needed pressure
oxidation was death.

716
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,960
And now after hemi, everyone's
like, Oh yeah, we'll go to

717
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:56,680
Aphrodite.
I think you guys are mentioning

718
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,120
that we'll go to Aphrodite.
We'll just Chuck it in a

719
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:00,680
reactor.
It'll, it'll sort out.

720
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,760
Why aren't we doing it?
Well, it's the arsenic trioxide

721
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,280
guys.
It's, it's death if you've got

722
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,360
death.
So, but yeah, that's an

723
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,160
illustration of we're, we're now
doing more complicated ores,

724
00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:20,680
especially in rare earths and
HPA for instance.

725
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,600
There's another and I know I've
done HPA and I've done

726
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,800
complicated metallurgy to
patents.

727
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:32,800
Yeah, me.
But with, with if we are doing

728
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:38,200
this work and we've got to put
in more effort metallurgically

729
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,880
communicating that that process
is not easy.

730
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,880
And, you know, there's 15 years
on average between a discovery

731
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,200
and a mine.
So why aren't we comfortable

732
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,320
with this?
You know, and, and I'm sure that

733
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,560
the, the serious money is
comfortable with that.

734
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,840
They understand that and, and
they're willing to fund it.

735
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,880
The banks are willing to do it.
But like the, the, the junior

736
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,720
companies, which are coming up
with a gallium thing like Nimi

737
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,920
with their gallium, it's in a
chlorite schist.

738
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,520
What's the metallurgy?
I don't know, right.

739
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:17,560
So let's you know, we've got to
understand that metallurgy is an

740
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,200
iterative process.
It's a it's science, It's it's

741
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,680
buckets and, and beakers and
crushing and floating and, and

742
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,120
you do it once and then you go,
oh, we'll tweak the knobs and do

743
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,520
it again.
But like, why do we expect it to

744
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,960
be just done?
You know Saturn, I've made a

745
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,320
bunch of money out of Saturn
recently, but it's in the boring

746
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,000
you'll.
Say Ding, Ding, Ding when?

747
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,320
Yeah.
And, and they're, they're in the

748
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:48,760
process and I've done, I've done
APF, sorry, I did Adfs in WA on

749
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,440
a heat bleach, right?
I know what's ahead of them.

750
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,720
And it's a whole lot of columns
and it's a whole lot of

751
00:43:55,720 --> 00:44:01,240
agglomeration and so much of it
more than than you could imagine

752
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:04,880
for something that big.
And, you know, and they're doing

753
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,760
a great job, but they're just at
the start and the market's not

754
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,720
ready for oh, we did another 50
columns this quarter and that's

755
00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:18,040
all we've done.
But you know, the results are.

756
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,120
Yeah, we don't know.
But that that's part of the

757
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,000
process.
That's part of that 15 years.

758
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:28,160
Is Saturn in year 13 or is it in
year 10?

759
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:29,800
We don't know.
They don't know.

760
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:35,120
So, yeah, reporting mineralogy
and metallurgy.

761
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:41,080
And also look, 111 of my bug
bears and I call them the magic

762
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:45,720
pudding, right, is a deposit
with a bunch of stuff in it.

763
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,280
And carbonotypes are great.
Like Tan Breeze is, is the, is

764
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:56,480
an example of this zircon rare
earths, niobium and also

765
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:02,040
apparently felspar and
fetsonite, right, Which is 3

766
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,440
mineral, three basic minerals,
udiolite, felspar and fetsonite.

767
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,120
Now European lithium says that
they can make money out of all

768
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,920
three and therefore be no waste.
And it's like, OK, that's a

769
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,240
magic pudding.
You can take a slice out and

770
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:19,200
take another slice and another
slice and you just everything's

771
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,680
valuable, right?
But in reality, that way, yeah,

772
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,080
in order to mine, you have to
make waste.

773
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,440
And we understand this in gold
because everyone's like, oh, low

774
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,720
strip ratio of two to one or
five to one, or what's high

775
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:36,560
strip ratio, 11 to 118 to one
for some of them.

776
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,120
And that and there's always, you
know, grade tonnage and blah,

777
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,720
blah, blah.
But in order to produce a ton of

778
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:45,680
ore, if you've got to produce 5
tons of waste rock, well, that's

779
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:52,080
waste, right?
If you get a ton of ore with 6%

780
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,280
rare earths in it, let's say
like at Mount, well, well,

781
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:59,120
there's still 94% waste stuff
that you're not going to sell.

782
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:00,480
So you have to produce the
waste.

783
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:05,800
So if you turn around and go,
well we've got a percent rare

784
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:10,360
earths and then we've got .5%
niobium and we've got 7%

785
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,520
zirconium and we've got some
gallium.

786
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:17,080
They were mentioning gallium.
Well, we've got gallium too.

787
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,840
Well of course you do because
you've sorted the columns,

788
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,560
right?
At some point you've got to ask,

789
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,160
well how much does it cost to
get each and everything out?

790
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,480
Is it justified?
Is it going to pay it off?

791
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,040
Can it be done?
At what point do you throw out

792
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,960
the baby with the bathwater?
Right now.

793
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,680
One example here which is which
is like really on point is that

794
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:44,520
deflector was used to be.
I worked there one of my first

795
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,560
jobs for this busted arse
company called Batavia Mining.

796
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:53,600
But that was an old gold copper
of mine then and it fell over

797
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:59,120
because the cyanide circuit
choked on unrecognised copper or

798
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,040
in the saprolite the the Super
gene copper digionite.

799
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:08,480
It sucked all the the the
cyanide out and they went bust

800
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,440
within a couple of weeks.
Bang, done they.

801
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:11,440
Didn't know the copper was
there.

802
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:16,280
No, because it was in the, they
knew there was oxide, copper and

803
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,320
they threw that away, but they
didn't realize that the

804
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,080
digionite was there because it's
this anonymous sort of black

805
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,120
stuff, right?
And they, they drilled, they got

806
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,240
the gold, they threw that in
the, in the CIL plant, stripped

807
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,080
preg robbing.
They so robbed, robbed all the

808
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,640
and, and they lost all the gold
in circuit and they, and then

809
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,040
they couldn't recover it in
time.

810
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,280
They went bust.
Batavia was exploring and they

811
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:46,720
did Batavia and did APFS or
scoping study.

812
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:50,640
And it was something like this
was in 2008 ish, right, $300

813
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:55,720
million.
And I forget the name of the

814
00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:58,800
company that that came after it,
but it was a guy John Grieve and

815
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:03,440
and I remember talking with him
and he was like, no, it was

816
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,880
before Dory, something like
Buccaneer or something.

817
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,880
OK, yeah.
And Dory bought them.

818
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,280
Got you.
Because what they did was they

819
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:17,280
they said, well, it's $300
million to get the oxide, copper

820
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,880
and gold and then to go into the
fresh sulfide, copper and gold,

821
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,760
which is chalcopyrite with gold
by gravity.

822
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:31,080
But that was split effectively
into two components, 150 for the

823
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:36,640
oxide and super gene plant and
150 for the fresh rock

824
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,760
underground.
The oxide plant would have only

825
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:45,800
made $150 million of cash flow.
So it was NPV negative to

826
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:50,240
recover the transitional oxide.
So John Graves said, we're just

827
00:48:50,240 --> 00:48:52,560
going to stockpile it.
Forget that malarkey.

828
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:58,240
We'll stick down on the 150 mil
for the fresh rock and the NPV

829
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:01,720
all of a sudden went up and then
they got bought by Doray, right.

830
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:07,080
So this is an example of someone
looking at it and going sure, we

831
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,720
could get everything out, but
it's not actually worth getting

832
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:13,320
everything out.
We'll stick to what we what's

833
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,920
going to actually make us money.
And that's it's the same for

834
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,680
these carbonatites and and
tanberries.

835
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,320
It's like what will make them
the most money?

836
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,320
And that's what they've got to
do the metallurgy to get the

837
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,760
solution for.
You know, if you've got a

838
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:33,240
copper, zinc, lead, silver,
gold, Indium, rhenium, blah

839
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:35,880
blah, gallium, germanium
deposit, right?

840
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:37,800
And you've done the assays,
you've got all of it.

841
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,240
And you just, and then people
start talking about

842
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:44,520
metallurgical work and they,
they go, oh, we've got a metal

843
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,160
equivalent.
And then they just sum it all

844
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,920
up.
And if you don't, and it's, this

845
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,760
is in the draw code and it's
also in the listing rules, if

846
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,080
you don't account for the costs
of recovery in your middle

847
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,680
equivalency, you're effectively
lying.

848
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:04,560
For instance, germanium, right?
It's worth $300,000 a tonne or

849
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:08,600
something like that.
So you go, oh, I've got 6 PPM,

850
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:12,120
that's 60 bucks right there.
Bang, done.

851
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,520
The problem is that the
payability is near 0 and and

852
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,600
also not every smelter will take
it out.

853
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,920
So in fact, you've got to send
it to China basically.

854
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:26,120
So yeah, so there's, there's
these sort of things get sort of

855
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:30,320
peddled on the ASX as, oh, we've
got all of these metals because

856
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:35,480
we assayed for them and here's a
metal equivalent and it's like 7

857
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:38,160
grams of gold equivalent.
And it's like when you look in

858
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,880
the list, it's like .1 grams of
gold and all the other stuff,

859
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,480
but they're calling it gold
equivalent because gold's what

860
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,440
people want to invest in.
And you think, well, that's kind

861
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,200
of most of the values in the
copper, right?

862
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,360
So that, that's another thing
that you sort of pick on is, is

863
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,000
people going, oh, I've got a
copper project.

864
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,280
It's like, well, it's mostly
gold or I've got a gold project.

865
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,040
Oh, it's mostly zinc, you know,
So yeah, there's a whole bunch

866
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,000
of things.
And that's, yeah, that's mostly

867
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,840
the the choice of how the
company wants to get the invest,

868
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,880
get investors engaged with it.
If they might, they might turn

869
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:14,400
into a mine.
Who knows?

870
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,040
That's the That's the magic
pudding.

871
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,200
Yeah.
And the the final one you had,

872
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:24,520
Roland, was geotech work.
What you can infer about the

873
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:30,120
company's willingness to mine.
Yeah, like one recently that I

874
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:32,920
got a bit of a bugbear about was
London medals.

875
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,320
And you know, they've done
great.

876
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,880
They're lucky because they've
got 1518 thousand ounces in a

877
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:43,200
pit, right, that surface and
it's right next to some odds and

878
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,120
everything like that.
But before they did their

879
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,720
resource, they put out a map and
some drilling data and they've

880
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:53,200
got geotech holes.
Now the IT sort of struck me as

881
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:59,560
odd because normally the process
is that you do your expiration

882
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,000
drilling and you get that all
together and you go, OK, I think

883
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:03,720
we've got a resource.
So we're going to go and model

884
00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:08,440
the resource and we're going to
create a block model of some

885
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,880
kind, even if it's just an
informal one to internal use

886
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:16,640
only or whatever they say to
themselves to avoid having to

887
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,640
say, well, we've done a resource
and, you know, maybe they

888
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,360
haven't done the QAQC properly
and, and they're just, you know,

889
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:25,720
so they can't release it because
it's not not proper.

890
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:27,640
But they, they, you get an idea,
right?

891
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,760
You do your back of the envelope
and then you do a whittle

892
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:36,480
optimization, which then
basically says, well, if with

893
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,600
all the inputs you've got from
mining costs and the value and

894
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,680
the metallurgy which you haven't
released yet.

895
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,880
But you must obviously have an
assumption on and you do.

896
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:48,960
You put it all in the pot and
you cook it up and it and it

897
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,280
basically whips out this this
pitch shell and it's very rough.

898
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:56,080
And it's not, you know, got no
geotechnical input into it.

899
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,560
But that gives you an idea of
mathematically, what's the pit

900
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:01,800
going to look like?
How big's it going to be?

901
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,160
Roughly where, where are the
walls going to be?

902
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,600
And so one of the things you got
to do, especially if you're

903
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:13,800
getting mining finance from a
bank, is geotech to make sure

904
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,240
the pit doesn't fall in on your
head.

905
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:18,720
And it's also part of the safety
and, and the mines act as well.

906
00:53:18,720 --> 00:53:21,520
You know, you got to consider
that is that you you got to make

907
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:25,360
a a design that is fit and will
not kill people.

908
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,360
So you have to do geotech.
So it's a pretty good indicator

909
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,440
that someone's serious about
mining when they're chucking

910
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,760
geotech in right?
And it also means that they must

911
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,640
have a pit wall that they're
aiming the geotech towards,

912
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,520
which means that they've got a
whittle optimization, which

913
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,440
means they've got a block model
of some kind, which means that

914
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,040
they've done a resource and they
know what they've got right.

915
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:54,040
So when they, when a company
just randomly releases geotech

916
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:59,400
holes, you sort of work your way
back and you go, oh, you've got

917
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:03,560
to go resource optimization, pit
geotech.

918
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,880
The other way to look at it is,
oh, we've got a resource, we've

919
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:10,920
got a pit optimize.
We're, we're going to be the

920
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:14,880
next great gold producer.
We're going to make 150,000 oz a

921
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:18,760
year starting next year.
And there's no geotech.

922
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:23,920
All right, So either they're
taking a massive risk on that or

923
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,000
they're not actually prepared to
go mining because they haven't

924
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,960
done the geotech for the pit
design processes, right.

925
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:35,320
So it's a it's a tell anyone
who's serious about mining will

926
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,280
be doing geotech.
You've provided us with a list

927
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,440
of your yellow flags as well,
and of course of our combo.

928
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:42,760
I think we've covered a few of
them.

929
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,360
Selective sampling and rock tube
sampling in general.

930
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,320
Portable XRF talk about metal
equivalents.

931
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,360
Yeah to talked about
carbonatite.

932
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:57,680
So that leaves visual estimates,
exploration targets, scoping

933
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,560
studies, and slick Letterheads.
Tell us about.

934
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:05,240
These, I think the easiest
one's, the slick is, you know,

935
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,840
we've discussed a lot about the
sort of PR philosophies and

936
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,920
strategies and stuff.
And, and it's like a, a bottle

937
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,760
of wine.
But the worst wine has the most

938
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:21,680
outrageously good label, right?
You know, you've got, you've got

939
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,760
a $5 bottle of wine with this
fantastic label.

940
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:29,240
And then you've got Penfolds
Grange with this like late 1800s

941
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:31,920
style label on it.
And you just know that Penfolds

942
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:35,000
is the, is the deal because they
don't have to dress it up.

943
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:39,280
Now that's not to say that you
should invest in guys who can't

944
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:43,080
do typesetting and and have no
promo.

945
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,880
And promo is important in
getting your message out there

946
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:49,960
because you could have 1,000,000
ounces of gold and no one rates

947
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:55,360
it if they don't know about it.
But yeah, it's like, yeah,

948
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:58,520
sometimes the, the harder they
try, the more you sort of think,

949
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:03,400
try hard in terms of the visual
estimates.

950
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:06,560
I think we've we've kind of did
that a bit.

951
00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:12,760
But one, one thing I will say is
that the CPS are also having to

952
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:19,280
do and boards as well and, and
board board members and company

953
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:21,280
secretaries have to deal with
the ASX.

954
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:26,600
And the ASX isn't populated by
people who know anything about

955
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,120
rocks.
And, you know, they, they have a

956
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:34,160
shit list and they even put out
a guidance note last week saying

957
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:38,920
that they're going to formalise
that into, you know, companies

958
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:45,040
which have had bad disclosure or
have not met expectations or

959
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:49,000
whatever they said going to get
enhanced surveillance, which

960
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,280
means they're on the shit list.
And there are, I've been talking

961
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:53,680
with people who are on that
list.

962
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,480
I've worked for companies which
are on that list.

963
00:56:55,480 --> 00:57:00,400
And, and, and you have to
sometimes keep reissuing stuff

964
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:04,000
for inane things.
You know, I've looked at it and

965
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:07,920
I go that, that looks fine.
And I just move on to the next

966
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:09,080
one.
And then the next day, they've

967
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,200
had to retract it.
And I don't always get see

968
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,720
everything either, right?
A lot of people do send me

969
00:57:15,720 --> 00:57:19,160
little anonymous tips and say,
oh, have you checked this out

970
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,720
yet?
But the ASX they're mostly

971
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:30,840
lawyers, sometimes accountants,
you know, and they're interested

972
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,720
in complying with the listing
rules, but they may not

973
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:39,160
understand how difficult it is
to get a proper visual estimate

974
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:44,520
of the mineralogy in something
and classic was in the case of

975
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,520
some of these lithium explorers
would would note tourmaline

976
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:53,000
tourmaline's an indicator
sometimes that it's not lithium

977
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,080
bearing some some tourmalines
are an indicator.

978
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,160
It is it depends on the
tourmaline species.

979
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:02,080
If you're on the side of a hill
in the Pilbara and you don't

980
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:06,760
have access to a teamer or a
spectral scanner, you just say

981
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,040
it's tourmaline bearing
pigmatize.

982
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,880
You announce it, it comes out
with some assays and they go,

983
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,400
oh, you didn't give us a
percentage of the tourmaline.

984
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,200
And it's like, it doesn't
matter.

985
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:22,200
It's just got to have tourmaline
in it to be, to be perspective,

986
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:25,400
right?
And yet they want to they want

987
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:29,360
to know exactly what minerals in
all your minerals in percentage

988
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:31,440
terms.
So, you know, some people I've

989
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:35,840
I've worked with have had to go
and reissue ASX announcements

990
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:40,760
and just sort of go, geez, I
don't know what was it 70%

991
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:46,800
feldspar, 2% tourmaline, go back
to their photos and have to give

992
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:51,800
a, you know, a modal abundance,
the mode that the abundance of

993
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:55,440
each mineral visually in the
rock sample that they took weeks

994
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:58,400
ago in the Pilbara and they've
got the assays for right.

995
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:03,240
And, and it's just inane and
frustrating and it's getting

996
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:07,160
worse and, and it's going to get
a lot worse, I think.

997
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,960
So, yeah, people have to be very
cautious about saying, oh, we

998
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:14,200
hit something or other.
And and also visual abundances

999
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:18,160
have to come out with
disclaimers about, you know, we

1000
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,000
can't tell that there's penalty
elements.

1001
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:21,560
And that includes for visible
gold.

1002
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:26,040
A lot of the people with the
photo, like, say, new Murchison,

1003
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,360
massive slug of gold.
Oh, visual estimate.

1004
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:32,520
OK, yeah, it's a giant chunk of
gold.

1005
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:33,960
We all know that that's worth
something.

1006
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,800
But we can't tell you exactly
how much gold's in it till we

1007
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,520
assay it, OK?
We also can't tell you if

1008
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,280
there's any deleterious elements
in it until we assay it.

1009
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:47,480
And I'm like, well, it's metal,
whatever, but that's just what

1010
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:49,560
you got to go through.
So there's this whole layer of

1011
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:54,040
bureaucracy with the ASX where
they're not really bringing

1012
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:57,320
anything to the team, right?
They don't sometimes understand

1013
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:04,560
the difference between Oz
contained in a resource and tons

1014
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:06,720
in a resource.
You know, people, some of these

1015
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,680
people are getting confused
about units of measurements.

1016
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,560
What inferred resource is versus
an indicated resource?

1017
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:16,160
You know, they'll get confused
about that.

1018
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:19,640
How can you claim it's inferred
when you haven't done the work?

1019
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,160
But we've got measured in there
as well.

1020
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:23,480
We've done the work to get to
measured.

1021
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,440
So we have to have some inferred
in there.

1022
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:28,960
That was one of the things it's
like they were saying you can't

1023
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,720
have inferred in your resource.
It's like, well, it.

1024
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:36,160
And also in terms of, say,
scoping studies and

1025
01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:40,080
forward-looking statements,
there's a minefield and I don't

1026
01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:43,040
envy a lot of people with this.
ISX has been big on this lately,

1027
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:43,920
right?
Yeah.

1028
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:48,240
And, and there are a few which
have been, yeah, really taking

1029
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,800
the piss.
But especially for scoping

1030
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,160
studies, sometimes it's, it's
kind of like, you know, a thumb

1031
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,080
suck.
And and it just, it has to be

1032
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:59,840
plausible, but not probable,
right.

1033
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:06,560
So is it possible that sometime
in the next 10 years we can get

1034
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:08,480
this out of the ground and make
some money out of it?

1035
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:09,280
Yes.
OK.

1036
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:12,800
And then you have to explain the
methods you went through.

1037
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:16,320
It may have a resource, it may
not have a resource.

1038
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,600
There's nothing saying you can't
do a scoping study on an

1039
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,000
expiration target.
Some people have done that.

1040
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:26,640
Other people have had to go all
the way through to indicated

1041
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:31,360
resources level of of quality
before they can do a scoping

1042
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,040
study.
Certainly the majority can't be

1043
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:36,160
from inferred resources.
You can't put out a

1044
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,040
forward-looking statement
because you haven't got the

1045
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:42,520
certainty, yeah on inferred
resources to do that.

1046
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:44,440
So.
Companies, they Well, if they

1047
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:47,280
can slip it through, they do and
then they issue the retraction

1048
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:50,360
at 3:00 PM in the afternoon but
the the numbers are out there

1049
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:51,240
and the.
Yeah.

1050
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:54,680
And that that's, you know, the,
there's been some complaints

1051
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:57,840
made about that sort of
behaviour as becoming the norm

1052
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:02,000
and that that's sadly entirely
on the ASX for letting it

1053
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:06,160
through in the 1st place.
Now everyone will try it will

1054
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:09,360
try anything once.
So let's give it a go.

1055
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:10,920
Let's see if we can slip it
through.

1056
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:13,960
Sometimes it's, it's
unintentional for sure.

1057
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:18,560
Other times it is intentionally
trying to get it out there so

1058
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:23,760
they can retract it, you know,
But at the end of the day, the

1059
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:28,440
you, you can't publish on the
ASX without at least in theory,

1060
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:32,080
someone reviewing it.
So yeah, the ASX needs more

1061
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:36,840
people.
They need better, you know, need

1062
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:38,960
better people on the job.
That's another layer of

1063
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:44,720
complexity there for CPS and
boards to have to deal with.

1064
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:51,520
As Australia goes overseas to
say Africa, Eurasia, Southeast

1065
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:55,600
Asia, a lot of these places
there's no legal requirement to

1066
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:59,760
report drilling, so it never
gets reported or comes with it

1067
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:01,320
is.
Common that a lot of drilling

1068
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:03,920
can be done sometimes and just
never like the results of it

1069
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:06,000
never reported.
Yep, Yep.

1070
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:10,360
Sound allowed in Australia.
No, it's not allowed.

1071
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,440
Yeah, does.
It still happen in.

1072
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:13,640
Australia.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

1073
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:20,320
Especially if you've got
prospecting licences right, it's

1074
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:22,600
getting less common.
Roland, you're an industry

1075
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:24,560
outsider.
Do you agree with that?

1076
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:32,160
Yeah, more or less.
I'm underemployed by the

1077
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:35,800
industry at the moment and
people have said you'll never

1078
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:38,880
get a job with those guys if you
say that.

1079
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:42,800
You've you've pissed off a lot
of people in the last 12 months

1080
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:47,280
in particular, right?
I've had a couple of people

1081
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:53,480
contact me and I've, I've got
the impression that they might

1082
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:56,280
be unhappy.
But I've also, I've actually got

1083
01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:00,400
a, a little bit of work
reviewing people's stuff.

1084
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:07,240
Or it's given me an introduction
to people who sort of realised

1085
01:04:07,240 --> 01:04:12,920
that maybe they haven't done
what they or haven't, you know,

1086
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:17,600
disclosed things properly and
they needed to go back and check

1087
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:24,240
their work.
And yeah, in a way, maybe it's

1088
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:28,920
costing me some jobs.
But, you know, would I last very

1089
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:33,000
long with those companies?
It's the other question, you

1090
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,120
know, people don't like to be
questioned.

1091
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:39,880
Most people don't like to do
things that they know will cause

1092
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:45,720
other people to dislike them.
What motivates you to continue

1093
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:52,760
your WTF?
Well, I've always been someone

1094
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:59,720
who likes to poke at things and
you know, I'm not, I'm not

1095
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:03,640
expecting to see a lot of, you
know, company directors respond

1096
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:08,680
to me.
There's been a couple, but I

1097
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:13,320
think that, you know, the, the
majority of people who reach out

1098
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:15,760
to me are either investors or
young geos.

1099
01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:20,200
The investors are like, I
learned so much from what you're

1100
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:23,400
doing.
I learned a lot about the

1101
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:26,000
processes of mining and
everything.

1102
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,720
And I've learned to read
announcements better and young

1103
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:34,280
geos who are saying, Oh, I've
never really considered that I

1104
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:38,400
need to do this, that and the
other thing in order to, to be

1105
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:40,760
jerk compliant.
And you know, and the other

1106
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,560
thing is like people use jerk as
this sort of magic term.

1107
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:48,240
It's jerk compliant and
therefore they use it to sort of

1108
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:53,560
legitimize all sorts of stuff.
Jokes, just a a code of telling

1109
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:57,200
people what you've done.
So it's like saying I'm

1110
01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:00,560
compliant with telling you what
I've got to do, but yet I don't

1111
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,400
do that.
I just say I'm Joel compliant.

1112
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:06,160
I don't actually tell you what
went into the sausage or the

1113
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,720
lasagna, right?
And there's layers and layers of

1114
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:12,880
of meat and and pasta.
And we're just going to give you

1115
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:19,360
the cheese on top.
And it's like, OK, someone me is

1116
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:22,480
sitting there saying, hang on,
I've peeled the cheese off on

1117
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:25,440
top and there's no meat.
You know, it's like, yeah, if

1118
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:26,880
you feel offended by that, I
would.

1119
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,880
I would think, well, maybe you
should hire me.

1120
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:36,320
Maybe give me a job to review
your disclosure before it goes

1121
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:37,240
out.
I'll do that.

1122
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:43,160
I'd love to be paid for this but
but yeah, would someone hire me

1123
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:47,200
as a senior expiration GA
because I've I've poo pooed what

1124
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:50,640
they did on some project five
years ago but they've turned me

1125
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:55,520
down Maybe.
I mean, but that's fine, I'll do

1126
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:57,520
my own thing.
Thanks for making the time and

1127
01:06:57,520 --> 01:06:59,160
coming on the show.
Yeah, no worries.

1128
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:04,880
I'll be sitting there and on
LinkedIn doing what I can when

1129
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:06,560
I'm not in the field.
Fighting the fight.

1130
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:13,320
But yeah, and yeah, yeah, you
know, peer review is one thing

1131
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:19,280
that's coming is proposed for
competent people and disclosures

1132
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:23,800
and you know, that's a it's an
interesting idea.

1133
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,800
But yeah, like who, who else is
out there asking these

1134
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:28,040
questions?
You know I.

1135
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:30,160
Think that's super what I said?
Talk.

1136
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:31,960
WTF?
Yep, fantastic.

1137
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:34,720
Cheers.
Awesome mate a wealth of

1138
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:36,440
knowledge for the punters out
there.

1139
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:39,280
I'm sure they all like that one
as much as I did We've got a few

1140
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:42,120
partners to thank to wrap this
one up big thank you to mineral

1141
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:45,040
mining services, grounded sand,
big ground support, K drill,

1142
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:49,280
cross boundary energy and check
out the focus platform by market

1143
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:51,000
tech we're.
Fine to show on there.

1144
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:55,000
Who to rue money miners.
Now remember, I'm an idiot.

1145
01:07:55,280 --> 01:07:57,720
JD is an idiot.
If you thought any of this was

1146
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:00,240
anything other than
entertainment, you're an idiot

1147
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:01,760
and you need to read out a
disclaimer.