Taking the pulse on junior miners with John Forwood

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Try and identify when we need to
be counter cyclical now exposed

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to battery minerals and metals
is very low at the moment as a

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percentage, but you know
potentially now is the time to

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be picking up, you know a bucket
load of shares in in good

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companies.
Righto muddy widers.

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I think U.S.
Masters was last week.

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That's why we've got Johnny 4
Wood.

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Come on.
Lowell, the man from the Lowell

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Resources Fund called him the
other week in Adelaide actually.

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So mate, he'd be flying with
gold at the moment.

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He sure is talking a lot about
gold, more than half the

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portfolio.
As the gold price is rising,

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mate Johnny's, Johnny's punts on
the on the junior end of the

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spectrum are certainly
benefiting from it and happens

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to make those, you know, junior
gold projects a lot more

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monetizable because dirt can now
go into a mill and who better to

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help out with that then?
Vendor of mining services?

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Did he mention any non core
assets he thought might need to

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be monetised?
He didn't, but he does have a

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view of, you know, he wants his
project, his companies to be

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focused on their core project
and if they've got non core

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projects make and if they're
able to be monetised, there's

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gold prices, then it'll be a
mess.

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Well if you want more money to
put into your core projects by

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monetising your non core
projects, MMS can just help you

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do bloody both of them as the
open pit mining gurus with the

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tech services are.
So Johnny, tell all your bloody

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mobs you're invested in, get a
hold of MMS, make some cash

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right now.
Go MMS.

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Right, let's get into the chat
with Johnny Forward.

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John Ford, great to have you
back on money of mine.

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We're very keen to chat again
and get your perspectives on

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everything going on at the at
the junior end of the market.

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How's the the past couple months
of volatility been treating you?

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Yeah, look, thanks guys.
It's an honour to be back on.

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So thanks for inviting me again.
Yeah, Look, after a pretty tough

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2024, the start of 2025, the
first 3 three months has been

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has been to date very good, you
know with a lot of volatility

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with within that 3 1/2 three and
a half four months.

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So as we speak right now, I've
got a got a smile on my face

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that's.
Probably because your portfolio

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is 54% weighted to gold and
that's just really having its

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time.
Exactly, Yeah.

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And that's only sort of by, you
know, organically growing as as

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a percentage, percentage wise.
Yeah, you don't even need to

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allocate to to new exposures.
That's just growing faster than

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everything else.
So what, what, what are you sort

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of making of the, the sentiment
in that, that real junior end of

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the market, you focus much more
early stage than the, the vast

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majority of investors that we
speak with.

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And we, we hear this narrative
of, you know, when are we going

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to see love right down the
bottom.

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And you know, you wouldn't pick
that up in your returns.

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They've been very strong.
But what are you feeling at the

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at the moment down there?
Look, it definitely improved,

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you know, main mainly for gold.
Also seeing, you know, some

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boutique medals or boutique
commodities do you know, attract

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a lot of love, you know, a
little bit into copper.

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But yeah, it's been it's been
it's been patchy.

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I think you know if, if IPOs are
any barometer, I can't off the

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top of my head, I can't think of
any junior resources IP OS that

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have happened so far in 2025.
Now we've we've got sort of sub

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10% allocation to seed equity
and there are there's at least

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one in that in our portfolio
that's hoping to IPO in the next

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three months, a gold, a gold, a
gold company.

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And there's another one that's
much more common I think at the

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moment RT OS.
But yeah, you know, as a

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barometer, which I think it's
not a bad barometer.

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The level of IPOs it's yeah,
it's still, it's still very low.

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It's.
An interesting point, right?

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It's like for, for one reason or
another, a bull market always

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ends in a flurry of, of IPOs.
That's the that's the, that's

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the final chapter of it.
But we're not there yet.

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So you'd you'd just shoot him
his legs?

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You'd, you'd think so.
You know, the last, you know, at

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the start of COVID, there was
something like, I think it was

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over 100 Virginia IPOs in that
year.

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And that was, I put that largely
down to, you know, very low

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interest rates, particularly out
of the US, but globally.

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So there was more speculative
money, you know, available in

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general.
And you know, some of that went

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into the junior resources,
resources sector.

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So, you know, that's some, you
know, that's the, that's the big

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question as to if and when
rates, particularly in the Usus

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are going to get cut.
And then I think, you know, as,

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as rates come down in the US,
we'll see more love in the

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sector as a, you know, as a
general rule.

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I've got to ask.
I've got to ask John, if I, if I

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met just an ordinary kind of, I
don't know, finance person in,

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in the, in the street or on
Collin Street or whatever.

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And I said to them, I know a
fund manager and his, his

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strategy is investing in a
portfolio of exploration and

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companies and his performance
for the last five years is 34%.

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They think I'm dreaming like
there's no way you can get those

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sort of returns with a
diversified portfolio of

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exploration stocks.
It's like it's a, it's a head

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scratcher that the strategy can
actually be kind of, you know,

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employed and, and, and have kind
of consistent, consistent

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performance returns.
What like what does the the

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layman not understand about your
strategy that actually that kind

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of underpins the alpha?
Look, I think yeah, when we do

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have winners, it's a combination
of picking a a stock with, you

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know, generally some great
exploration results which are

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then, you know, released into a
market that's receptive.

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So, you know, as your minerals,
great example for US, one of our

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best ever investments, you know,
great exploration results in,

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you know, the lithium spodumene
in the Pilbara at a time when,

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you know, the lithium market was
quite hot.

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So we, we can't, we can't
control either of those factors

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really as to whether you know, a
company's going to have great

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exploration success or the
market's going to be there for a

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particular commodity.
But we can, you know, make our

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best estimates and try and you
know, if you like place our

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bets.
And I guess it's a what we can

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do, which the man in the street
can't do is take a portfolio

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approach and because the funds
relatively small, 60 odd

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$1,000,000 of assets under
management, we don't have to

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put, you know, the whole fund on
black if you like to move the

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needle.
So it's a yeah, it's a

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diversified approach and we hope
that that one or two of our

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stocks shoot the lights out
every year.

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John, how is the, the terms in
which you invest in, in

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companies sort of ebbed and
flowed and, and where are they

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kind of at at the moment?
What I'm kind of getting at is,

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you know, when, when the market
is tougher for companies

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raising, you can you can price
things to your favour a bit

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better and and vice versa.
Where were we at in in that

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cycle?
Yeah, look, I think it's

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interesting, you know, when the
market's down and the general

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generalist investors aren't
looking at the sector, then I

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get a lot of calls, you know,
from, you know, everyone is

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raising money.
And when the market's flying

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high, I generally get a few less
calls and, you know, it's harder

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to participate in placements,
but but I think generally those

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placements are done at higher
prices.

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And, you know, it's not such a
big deal if we do miss out.

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So as I often say, you know,
sometimes the placements where

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the company is really not
wanting to suffer the dilution,

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it's trying to minimize it.
It's, you know, just doing

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everything it can to avoid,
avoid that dilution.

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That's they're the placements
that you really want to

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participate in if you think the
market's about to about to turn.

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If, if I, if I kind of peel into
some of your, your, your, your

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gold exposures, there's there's
no shortage of gold junior

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mining companies on the ASX.
In fact, there must be more like

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junior gold companies than any
other, you know, sub, sub sector

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of, of a type of company out
there.

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But like, like what's your kind
of, I don't know, filter for

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getting rid of all, all of the
noise very quickly and and

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focusing on what's actually
investable amongst that?

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Yeah.
Look, I think you know, we we do

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like the micro micro.
And so I guess you know if

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something's you know, generally,
you know, north of 200 million

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market cap as an entry point,
then it's probably we probably

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missed it.
That's just a general rule.

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So we can sort of filter that a
bit.

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Not to say we're not interested
in those companies and we

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certainly do have companies that
have grown well beyond that

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point.
And then, you know, a quick

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filter on commodity and then you
sort of, if you're still

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interested, then you're sort of
drilling down or what does the

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metal energy look like?
What do I think of the

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exploration potential in
particular?

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What do I think of the, the
management?

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So, yeah, look, you know, you
can, you can do that reasonably,

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reasonably quickly.
And then, yeah, hopefully you,

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you winnowed through to, you
know, out of the.

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Yeah, must be.
Oh yeah, you're right.

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It's probably 400 or so listed
ASX, you know, gold companies

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and, and a lot of them, you
know, we, we put them into

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buckets by, by commodity.
And, you know, as gold has gone

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up, a lot of the, you know, ones
in the lithium bucket have

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become or the nickel bucket have
actually switched into gold.

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So there's probably more.
So, yeah, look, you can, you can

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winnow it out reasonably
quickly.

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But yeah, and but there's no way
you can, you can look at them

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all.
That's that's beyond beyond a

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small fund like us.
And how do you, how do you kind

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of think about just maintaining
your, your exposures to

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different commodities, like Trev
said, quite a heavy exposure to

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gold and you mentioned that's
grown naturally as these these

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companies have just sort of
grown.

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But that that can go kind of
both ways.

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How do you, how do you think
about keeping it sort of in

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check?
So yeah, see more of the upside

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than the downside.
Yeah.

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Look, that's our job, you know,
to try and identify when we need

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to be countercyclical.
So, you know, exposed to battery

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minerals and metals is very low
at the moment as a percentage.

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But you know, potentially now is
the time to be picking up, you

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know, a a bucket load of shares
in in good companies for even

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when, you know, those markets do
turn like, you know, nickel or

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or lithium or, you know, other
other battery battery type

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commodities.
So, yeah, you know, that's, you

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know, while, while we might have
not, we might look small, you

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know, these these companies can
grow very rapidly and you know,

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then you know that that exposure
to a particular commodity can

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change very quickly in our
portfolio.

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I'd love to I'd love to like
yeah, you I can't tell you like

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that that process maybe using a
couple of one a couple of the

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big runners that you've you've
had in the portfolio and that

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are are still in there.
Like the, the biggest

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allocations other than cash at
the moment are astral and, and

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medallion medals and like at
what, what point?

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But I mean, both of them are
relatively advanced in the

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context of being, you know,
being gold projects.

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They've got studies on, you
know, the, the resources are

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well defined, all those sorts of
things.

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But at what point did you kind
of make the assessment this,

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this looks, you know, you know,
very undervalued at the moment.

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And I'm, I'm happy to get
exposure knowing pretty well

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what's in, in the ground.
And and and subsequent to that,

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why have you not trimmed the
position now that they've

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they've really tremendously
rewrited?

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Yeah.
Look, you know, both of those

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examples we've been in for at
least three or four years.

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I think we participated in most,
if not every placement they've

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done over that that period.
You know, Medallion for example,

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I think our first entry point
was at $0.25 where it is about

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00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,200
today, but it's been down to,
you know, $0.05 and now back

221
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,040
again.
So it's important to to

222
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,360
participate in placements as the
share price falls if you still

223
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,200
believe in in the company so
that yeah, your returns

224
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:29,400
actually, you know, on that one.
Look, look, very nice look.

225
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:30,600
Yeah.
You know, talking of, you know,

226
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,080
trimming them, I think what
we're seeing, you know, both

227
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,640
those examples, if you plug in,
you know, develop your own cash

228
00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,680
flow model and you plug in your
anywhere near current Aussie

229
00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:47,600
dollar gold prices and and
perhaps copper prices in

230
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,080
medallion's case as well.
You know, you're still seeing,

231
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,240
you know, multiples of the
current enterprise value as a,

232
00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:01,080
as an NPV.
So you know, as they move

233
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:07,360
through feasibility and into
development, typically we would

234
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:13,520
be be trimming some of it.
But both those companies have

235
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:21,200
relatively short permitting
horizons and relatively low

236
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:26,080
capital hurdles.
So that, you know, Valley of

237
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,800
Death if you like in the
Lausanne curve should be

238
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,240
relatively benign for those for
those companies.

239
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,120
So, so yeah, we may well hold
them because we do see such good

240
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:41,800
value at the other side.
It's really, really interesting

241
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,520
John and I'm, I'm really curious
to ask you as well.

242
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,600
The biggest company by market
cap in the portfolio is Remelius

243
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,120
that you know is a a massive
outlier compared to a lot of the

244
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:57,840
other companies that you hold in
that it actually produces gold

245
00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,120
is.
That a legacy from your Musgrave

246
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,560
holdings.
Correct, Yes.

247
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,880
So yeah, you know, we thought
Remelius got a very good deal

248
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,880
buying Musgrave and that's, you
know, being borne out.

249
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,120
I think, you know, the ultra
high grades that come out of

250
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,960
queue and are going through the
Chequers plant up at Mad Magnet

251
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,360
are bearing that out.
But yeah, look, it's not a, not

252
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,440
a natural holding for us.
Yeah.

253
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,880
But it is a, it's sort of a like
a cash proxy.

254
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,880
We regard it as very liquid
relative to our, our other

255
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:37,640
portfolio companies.
And yeah, you know, we, there's

256
00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,600
still some, we still think
there's upside there, but we

257
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,200
have been, have been trimming
some, some Remedios along the

258
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,760
journey.
Very, very interesting.

259
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,600
And if, if we go to another
continent for a moment,

260
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,720
predictive is, is another one in
there that is, I guess in in

261
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,000
between a couple of the, the
different styles in which you

262
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,760
play in that they're getting
closer to a potential outcome or

263
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,600
takeover.
What's the what's the sort of

264
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,680
thinking in your mind of, of
exiting, exiting the name or how

265
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,120
the the next year could play
out?

266
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,400
Yeah, look, you know, there's a
bit of patience required.

267
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,240
Now I think with predictive
something may happen in 2025,

268
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:23,280
but there's a bit of a poison
pill for Persius.

269
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,680
If they make a move before 31st
December this year in terms of

270
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:33,720
having to pay part or share the
profits or share, share the

271
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:40,120
upside beyond I think it's $0.21
with the group that they bought

272
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,840
this, they're not, they're 17%
now from.

273
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,560
So, you know, I don't think Jeff
Quartermaine is, you know,

274
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:53,920
motivated to make a move in
2025, but you know, they're, you

275
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:59,560
know, we've got Zijin and
Lundeen Group in there as well

276
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:04,040
with, you know, almost identical
percentage shareholdings to

277
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:06,560
their shareholding in Montage
Gold, which is building a

278
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:13,560
300,000 oz per annum gold
project in Cote d'Ivoire in West

279
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,160
Africa.
Excuse me.

280
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:22,800
So look, never say never, but I
would think it's just sort of

281
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:24,440
trades with the gold price at
the moment.

282
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:30,480
So I would think there might be
a bit of a lull, you know, in,

283
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,880
in corporate activity until the
end of the year.

284
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,800
But but who knows?
You know, I know there's, you

285
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,440
know, the company has said
there's numerous parties in the

286
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,520
data room, quite a few out of
out of Asia.

287
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,920
So yeah, they may, they may be
happy to jump the gun.

288
00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,520
Some of the something some of
the beating wars out in in West

289
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,640
Africa in recent times have been
have been quite interesting to

290
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,720
to say the least.
What what are the the juniors in

291
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,320
that part of the world that get
get you excited?

292
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,080
I know there's a few we've sort
of spoken about in the past.

293
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,800
It seems to be less than there
has been previously, but are

294
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:06,960
there some that come to the
fore?

295
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,720
Yeah.
Look, we've got got a number,

296
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:15,920
you know, we're sort of focused
on Guinea and, and Cote

297
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:20,160
d'Ivoire, they're probably a
couple of the best mining

298
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,000
jurisdictions in West Africa at
the moment.

299
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,000
Guinea obviously very long
history of, of bauxite

300
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:30,040
production and you know about to
become a major iron ore producer

301
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,360
through Simandu and you know
gold, there's quite a strong

302
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,720
history of gold there as well.
So while there's been political

303
00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,800
turmoil, the mining industry has
really gone on largely

304
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:42,520
unhindered.
So we like it.

305
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:47,800
We've got predictive obviously
we've got a Canadian company in

306
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:53,560
our top ten called Sanu Gold,
which has got a some great

307
00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,000
projects up near the Saguri mine
operated by Anglo.

308
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,280
Anglo's on the register there
montage are on the register.

309
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,720
I think to see Jim are also on
the register.

310
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,600
So it's got a it's got a share
registry sort of to die for from

311
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,320
West Africa.
We like, we like that one.

312
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,240
We are in a company called
DeSoto in Guinea.

313
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,720
That's Paul Roberts, you know,
the discoverer of Bank Hand and

314
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,080
the founder of Predictive
Discovery.

315
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:26,240
That's his new vehicle for for
Guinea.

316
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,480
So yeah, we like, you know, the
the ground that they've got.

317
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,400
It's very early stage, but great
team.

318
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:38,760
And then in Cote d'Ivoire, we've
got Warren from the takeover of

319
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:43,240
Mako Gold, and that's Kaigen
Wang and his team X Tieto.

320
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,200
So they're just drilling the,
you know, their project like

321
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,960
Swiss cheese with very efficient
Chinese rigs.

322
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,640
And we've got a number of
others.

323
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,120
African Gold, which montage is
now actually operating, You

324
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:01,080
know, that name keeps on
cropping up in in West Africa.

325
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:02,800
They're sort of following us
around, I think.

326
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,560
And a couple of others in, in
Cote d'Ivoire as well.

327
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,160
So yeah, that's, that's what
we're and they're all sorry.

328
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,440
We we're, we are in Arrow
Minerals, which is focusing on

329
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:21,280
bauxite in in Guinea, but all
the rest are are gold companies.

330
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,320
What, what do you read into
that, that very clear, clear

331
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,800
trend of, of yeah, of, of
montage picking, picking up

332
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,600
these, these stakes in, in
juniors that have a line of

333
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,200
sight to a couple million ounces
of, of gold.

334
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,520
They don't even have to kind of
have it yet.

335
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,720
It's just line of sight and all
of a sudden they they pop up

336
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,520
with a decent chunk of the
register.

337
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:47,320
Yeah, look, I think, you know,
they're, they're, they haven't

338
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,160
said this publicly, I don't
think, but I think they're, you

339
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,280
know, planning to be a
consolidator and and possibly be

340
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,440
the next Endeavour Endeavour
Mining, which, you know, has

341
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,760
been one of the big players in
in West Africa over the last

342
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,040
couple of decades.
Yeah, it'll be, it'll be very

343
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,320
interesting to watch.
I mean, having a combination of

344
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:14,000
London's NZG and backing them
is, yeah, bit of the East and

345
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,720
West together.
It's a, it's a, it's a really

346
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,520
intriguing one.
When you think about the the

347
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:24,080
potential takeover or the
potential acquirers and you kind

348
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:28,240
of compare that to 5 or 10 years
ago, is it more and more and

349
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:33,120
more slanted towards Russian and
and Chinese companies or am am I

350
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:37,280
overthinking that?
Yeah.

351
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,960
Look, I think you know, that's,
that's one thing that being

352
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:47,200
offshore, if you like in in
places like South America and

353
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:54,960
and Africa does allow you know,
those players into the M&A

354
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,960
space.
So while I think there's still

355
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,080
quite a substantial discount on
a per oz basis, you know,

356
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:03,160
African say call it African
discount.

357
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,800
If you've got a project here in
Australia, you know, basically

358
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,520
there's no new Chinese
investment coming in.

359
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,840
So that's sort of off the table.
Whereas if you're in West

360
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:22,520
Africa, you do have access to,
you know, that, yeah, that's

361
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,800
sort of that's sort of capital.
So, yeah, look, I think, you

362
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:31,160
know, it is becoming more and
more, you know, Chinese, Chinese

363
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,480
dominated.
But yeah, you know, wouldn't

364
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:40,400
rule out, you know, Persius, you
know, being, you know, they are

365
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,120
very obviously, you know, the
major operations are in West

366
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:45,760
Africa.
So yeah, they're still very much

367
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:48,520
in the game.
You can't finish a bloody

368
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,520
African mining segment without
ACRE insurance plug as the

369
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,560
bloody African mining insurance
experts like sorry African

370
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,000
mining experts, insurance
broking experts. 2 separate

371
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,520
things.
But that's why they're like a

372
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,440
fricking an absolute freight
train in mining insurance.

373
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,720
I was going to say the Titanic
of mining insurance but the

374
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,120
Titanic sunk which CRE insurance
will never.

375
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,720
With the bloody presence in
Sydney, Brisbane, Perth, Orange

376
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,200
all covering everywhere around
the world in mining insurance

377
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,200
and bloody everything insurance
breaking.

378
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:24,760
Jesus Christ, what more do I
need to say?

379
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,680
What more do you want, Maddie?
Speaking of underwater, I did

380
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,800
see 29 Metals announced just
recently that after two years of

381
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,400
debating their insurance claim,
they they finalized their

382
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,120
insurance claim.
They're going to get an extra 61

383
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:37,160
million takes total gross
proceeds from their insurance

384
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,920
claim to 115,000,000.
Unfortunately in the same period

385
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,640
of time, the last two years
share prices down 94% and

386
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:47,000
they've had to raise twice as
much money in new equity from

387
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,520
you know, dilutive, dilutive
activations.

388
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,520
I'm not saying it was avoidable,
but imagine if they had of taken

389
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,040
a free CRE policy review before
that weather event.

390
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,920
You never know, things might be
looking at a lot more.

391
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,440
Might have had another 0 on it.
They might have got paid out a

392
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,760
billion.
Better to be safe than sorry.

393
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,320
You'll never know, JD, right?
Let's go back to Johnny Forward.

394
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,360
Where?
Where are you still seeing?

395
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,000
Like.
Pockets or opportunities of

396
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,400
where there's there's really
attractive value, John, I mean

397
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,960
some of the like gold's hot
right now, but is that flowing

398
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,000
all the way down and like what,
what, what kind of opportunities

399
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,480
are on a relative basis, you
know, more attractive right now

400
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,280
than than than others?
Yeah.

401
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,720
Look, I think, you know, one
sort of broad area to talk about

402
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,720
is North American listed
companies.

403
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,920
Yeah, we have start to see move
it there.

404
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:42,040
I mentioned in Asanu Gold,
they're probably up, you know, 6

405
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:47,160
sixfold in the last six months,
you know, but partly because,

406
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,400
you know, there's recognition by
by some really, you know, high

407
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,960
profile investment groups,
mining groups, but I think

408
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,880
that's a general rule.
You know, the Canadian listed

409
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:06,080
stocks have lower valuations
than than Aussie Aussie listed

410
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,960
stocks.
And we're still seeing a number

411
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,360
of Canadian companies with great
projects, you know, coming

412
00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:17,640
through Australia investigating,
you know, whether they should be

413
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:24,400
looking at a ASXASX listing.
And in particular, I think you

414
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,040
know, right down, you know,
from, you know, the Snow Line

415
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:31,320
gold sitting on 5 or 6,000,000
ounces in the Yukon down to

416
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,440
yeah, that's, that's a stand
out, you know, and they came

417
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,760
through with a, you know, a, a
page in their presentation

418
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,520
comparing their project, the
valley project to, to Hemi to

419
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,760
Gray's projects have been taken
over 5 billion.

420
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,840
Yeah.
And I think Snow Lion are

421
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,560
trading at about 1.2 billion
Canadian.

422
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,600
And it's definitely, you know,
some advantages to to Snow Lions

423
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,600
projects.
So what's the what's the trip?

424
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,200
Ratio on it.
It's like you're digging into

425
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,160
the ore body straight away.
Yeah, it's the ore body's shaped

426
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,120
like a yeah.
Like an open pit.

427
00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:05,680
Amazing.
Yeah.

428
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,960
But obviously there's other
factors that the First Nations

429
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,360
stuff and obviously the the
tragic heap leach event that

430
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:13,760
happened, happened in the region
not too.

431
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,520
Long yeah, the Yukon's still
still coming back from the

432
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,640
Victoria gold yeah Issue.
But yeah, you know, there's

433
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,120
certainly one.
But you know, that's, that's

434
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:25,120
sort of the bigger end, but also
at the smaller end there's,

435
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:28,920
there's numerous little
explorers that, yeah, you know,

436
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,200
just look, looks super cheap
relative to where we sit in here

437
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,000
in Australia.
One of your predictions for 2025

438
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,160
was that we would say more and
more of these TSX and TSXV

439
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,600
companies come and list on the
ASX.

440
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,320
Do you think there's a, a sweet
spot or a or a window where

441
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,200
these deals are attractive and
then the quality sort of

442
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,600
deteriorates?
Is that a concern you have?

443
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,920
Look, there's certainly, you
know, if you, if you're an

444
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:02,000
Aussie and you're looking at
Canadian projects in, you know,

445
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:08,720
in the Abbottibi or, you know,
Valdor or whatever, there's, as

446
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,760
Tony Manini's pointed out,
there's a lot of million ounce

447
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,320
deposits that are, you know,
might have been mined back in

448
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,440
the day with the shaft or two.
And they're just sitting there

449
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,680
and they're trading at, you
know, very low per oz values.

450
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,720
So, you know, from an Aussie
point of view, geez, well,

451
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,440
that's, that's really cheap.
But you know, I think when I

452
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:36,160
thought it, for example, Firefly
is it who, you know, went into

453
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:42,120
Canada, picked up the Pickle
Lake gold project, had, you

454
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:44,600
know, multi million ounces to
it, but it was all inferred.

455
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,040
It was very deep and then they
sort of used that experience

456
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:52,680
and, you know, their script to
go and go and apply them,

457
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,640
acquire the Ming project, copper
project, super high grade,

458
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,720
beautiful looking copper project
in Newfoundland.

459
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,280
So I think maybe you could say
they paid a few school fees,

460
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,720
worked out, you know, perhaps
this gold project wasn't exactly

461
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,600
what they wanted and then
upgrade it, if you like, to what

462
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,200
looks like a fantastic copper
project with an existing permit,

463
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,720
existing mill, underground
infrastructure.

464
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,520
So, yeah, look, I think you're
right.

465
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,600
You know, there are, you know,
you know, there can be hairs on

466
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,080
the dog.
You know, you just don't want to

467
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,640
sort of rush in and say, well,
that's, you know, that's a

468
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,920
million oz.
Let's let's get it cheap because

469
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,720
then it may be, you know, very
hard to take it forward.

470
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,040
It's it, yeah.
It's, it's so tempting to think

471
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,040
that you're, you're onto this
like relative bargain when

472
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,120
you're looking on looking at
assets on the other side of the

473
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:46,600
globe.
But it's, it's not your

474
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,000
homecourt.
And in fact, often times when

475
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,760
you're, you're, when you're
shopping in someone else's

476
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,280
homecourt, you, you end up
second fiddle because someone

477
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,600
else runs all over you.
But yeah, but some, it's not to

478
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,960
say like plenty of people have,
have have had success with that

479
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,480
strategy.
Unfortunately, a lot more people

480
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,560
have had bad outcomes with that
strategy.

481
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,240
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, you're sort of torn.

482
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:10,880
You know, as a general rule, the
low valuations versus, you know,

483
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,000
what, what, what does, what does
Rumsfeld call it?

484
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,000
The known unknowns or the
unknown unknowns you know of

485
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,160
going into a completely
different part of the world.

486
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,840
In, in, in Australia, is there,
are there, are there pockets of

487
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:30,640
value still compelling?
Yeah, look, I think areas that

488
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:35,720
have perhaps been overlooked or
forgotten, you know, I, I, I

489
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:40,360
think the Mount Isa block, you
know, has got a lot more, a lot

490
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:45,480
more to give as a, as a general
rule, you know, on, you know,

491
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,480
generally for, for copper, but
also also gold.

492
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,200
Yeah.
Look, Victoria is an interesting

493
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,360
one.
Just, you know, my home state

494
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,000
just granted its first mining
license in living memory.

495
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,840
Is that?
The VHM.

496
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,640
That's yeah the Goshen, the
Goshen project, which is rare

497
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,160
earths and, you know,
traditional, you know, sands.

498
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,200
So number of factors there.
You know, Victoria is broken

499
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:15,600
than any other state in
Australia.

500
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,000
Plus, you know, rare earths is
obviously a very political,

501
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,520
political thing and you know,
it's probably quite a bit of

502
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,040
pressure from the feds and and
from the US to to permit these

503
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,800
things.
So it.

504
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,960
Took them until they were broke
to to permit to mine.

505
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,360
It's quite amazing, isn't it?
Yeah, the same thing's happened

506
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,920
in New Zealand.
I think the state debt of

507
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,000
Victoria is about the same as
the national debt of New

508
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,680
Zealand.
And you know, there's been some

509
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,880
real progress in NZ in terms of
in terms of permitting.

510
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,640
They, they had a change in
government as well as I

511
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,520
understand, which has really
sort of spurted along and seen

512
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,640
them announce this sort of fast
track project to allow some

513
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,520
projects to kind of speed
through permitting.

514
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,920
So, yeah, I mean, it's there,
there's some projects there are

515
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,480
there projects that that have
caught your eye in, in New

516
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,960
Zealand on on that point?
Yeah, look, we, we haven't got

517
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,680
any investments there, but you
know, obviously the Santana

518
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:20,520
project, beautiful, beautiful
looking looking project and you

519
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,240
know, moving through the gold,
gold got up gold development

520
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,640
opportunity, moving through
permitting, you know, looks to

521
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,680
be going pretty well.
So, yeah.

522
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,960
And then you know that geology,
you know, there's, there's a lot

523
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,640
of it in the in the South Island
in particular.

524
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:39,520
So there are other opportunities
there.

525
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,480
Got to ask you about some of the
more speculative names in your,

526
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,880
in your, in your, in your
portfolio, John.

527
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,120
And I mean, you're a geologist,
so you'll be able to speak to it

528
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:50,560
in a not so speculative way, I'm
sure.

529
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:56,040
But the the likes of Coonbury.
Oh, yeah.

530
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:06,840
Look that that's a beautiful
portfolio of Macquarie ARC, the

531
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,680
Cadia potential targets.
You know, they've got everything

532
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,000
from a joint venture on with
Newmont at Junee, which has got

533
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,200
some beautiful geology, some
really interesting hits there

534
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,840
right through to different style
of geology.

535
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:27,760
But this sheer granite granitoid
zone up at Enmore, which has

536
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,440
really, you know, set the market
alight from for them.

537
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:36,880
So that's a, you know, and, and
a great team based in Orange in,

538
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,080
in NSW, some some really good
geos there.

539
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,840
So, you know, there's a there's
a hell of a lot to like about

540
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,520
it.
You know, it's up sort of seven

541
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,280
times from the placement that we
came into.

542
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,320
I think it was late in the
second-half of last year.

543
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,200
It's not about, yeah, really,
really nice.

544
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:01,080
But yeah, look, I think, you
know, that portfolio, they're,

545
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,360
they're spoiled for choice.
I think they've done the right

546
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:07,600
thing in terms of, you know,
focusing on one project and not

547
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,280
sort of diluting the market's
attention.

548
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,720
But there's probably, I don't
know, there's probably two or

549
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,720
three companies that could be
spun out of that, you know,

550
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,440
with, with those assets they've
got and they've got all this

551
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,400
data, all these results which
have never been released to the

552
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,320
public.
So yeah, they've got a a great

553
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:31,600
pipeline of ASX releases as and
when they should choose to do

554
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,440
that.
Nexus Minerals.

555
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,440
Yeah, look, Andy Tudeham, one of
my, is my old boss, actually.

556
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,480
Yeah.
You know, I've got a long

557
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,600
history with that part of the
world and Saracen and Kara,

558
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,920
Sudan etcetera going going way
back when.

559
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,680
So I really like it, you know,
in terms of the geology and you

560
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,880
know they've got both, they've
got potential very low CapEx

561
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:12,600
told treat opportunity and which
you know this up to you know,

562
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,280
300,000 oz that could go through
Karasutam.

563
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,520
But you know this is 70 or
80,000 oz that are much higher

564
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,480
grade with lowest strip ratio
that could be trucked a long

565
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,120
way, you know, back back to Kale
and you know, down on to Kulgadi

566
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,560
potentially.
So you've got that sort of

567
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,360
underpinning, underpinning value
and then you've got all these

568
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:39,920
new air core targets that
they're they're working up.

569
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,560
And it's amazing that some of
these areas have never been,

570
00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:47,000
never been drilled, you know,
along strike from, from Warbrook

571
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,679
and Porphyry and, you know,
known deposits.

572
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,159
So yeah, they're hitting it hard
with with their core or

573
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:56,440
percussion drilling at the
moment.

574
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:01,040
And yeah, I expect them to add
to their resource, if not

575
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,680
mineable inventory substantially
this year.

576
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,840
Your, your point on truckable
distances is a really

577
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,160
interesting 1, John.
I've heard you speak about it

578
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,680
briefly in the past as well.
We came to hear you just dive a

579
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,400
bit deeper into that and like
very interested to hear if there

580
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,600
are any other aspects given the
the real step change we've seen

581
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:27,000
in gold that investors might not
be completely taken on board.

582
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,760
Yeah.
Look, I think, you know, there's

583
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,400
a number of companies that have
been, you know, turning fairly

584
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,720
modest and gold deposits into
cash.

585
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,080
Oreck Mining is one that I've
been speaking to quite a bit

586
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,360
when site visit with those guys
last month.

587
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,600
And yeah, you know, the
economics just seem to get

588
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:56,080
better and better for trucking.
Apparently there's a lot of

589
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:04,720
trucking capacity out of
Kalgoorlie haulage and with the

590
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,560
with oil price, you know,
falling after Liberation Day,

591
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,360
while the Aussie dollar price
has also fallen.

592
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,600
I think, you know, our benchmark
of tapas is is relatively low in

593
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,200
terms of the five year.
You're looking at a five year

594
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,040
time frame.
So, yeah, you know, that that

595
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,880
that's a saving as well.
So yeah, you know, dig and dig

596
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,920
and deliver is is looking, you
know, looking good.

597
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,960
And I think at some point,
should this situation continue,

598
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:42,440
then, you know, these half full
or partly filled mills are going

599
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,880
to get filled up either with
third party or, or, you know, or

600
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,920
that has, you know, been sitting
on waste, you know, low grade

601
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,640
stockpiles for a while that's
owned by the mill owners.

602
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,080
So, yeah, you know, I think it's
going to be first in first in

603
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,160
best dressed to some some
extent.

604
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,040
And then, you know, the the high
gold price, you know, it doesn't

605
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:11,040
just turn on stranded assets.
You know, there's, there's other

606
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:16,280
factors there's, you know,
things like metallurgy, you

607
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,160
know, refractory or partially
refractory ore now, you know,

608
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,120
which might have been looked at
as uneconomic in the past.

609
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,520
Now, you know, it looks much
more attractive.

610
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,680
I think, you know, Hemi was an
example of that.

611
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,080
You know, I would say 15 years
ago, Hemi had been discovered,

612
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,880
you know, part low grade,
partially refractory.

613
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,560
The market would have gone, oh,
huh.

614
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,160
But you know, in today's gold
price, you know that, you know,

615
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,240
fairly low, lowest grade deposit
with, you know, partially

616
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:50,320
refractory.
The markets really loved it.

617
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,800
Yeah.
How do you, how do you weigh up

618
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,200
your, your, I guess your
interest in those like maybe

619
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,640
modest deposits which now have a
pathway to cash flow and that's

620
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,800
a really meaningful economic
generator for a small or for

621
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,600
micro cap company versus the
more longer dated production

622
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,200
stories.
But they have like a more

623
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,240
formidable kind of, you know,
production story behind them.

624
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,520
Something you've been invested
in for a long time is is Saturn

625
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,520
I believe but that.
That's not going.

626
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,080
To be produced until like 2028
at best sort of thing.

627
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,640
So yeah, how do you, how do you
kind of weigh up the, the, the,

628
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,360
the the two kind of horizons to
cash flow?

629
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:34,840
Yeah, look, I think, you know,
if if there is a long dated, you

630
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:40,880
know, production, then it does
have to be big and you know, you

631
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:48,440
know, exciting in terms of scale
and and certain it's big, it's

632
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,000
low grade.
But you know, we we like it for

633
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:57,520
that reason because it's a great
option on the gold price and you

634
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,120
know, sat in just in the last
well, since it raised money at

635
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,720
21 cents, I think it was up at
32 odd cents today, just in the

636
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:08,040
last few weeks.
So you know, has responded to

637
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:14,400
the gold price moves and
similarly something like Caravel

638
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,960
on the in the copper space,
huge, huge deposit, very low

639
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,720
grade.
But you know, these these things

640
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:25,120
have got very attractive
metallurgy and you know, are

641
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:30,120
well are well located.
So you know those two companies,

642
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,120
Saturn with gold and Caravel
with copper offer great leverage

643
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,720
to to the metal underlying metal
prices.

644
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,760
If we look at some of the other
copper names that you've

645
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,640
mentioned in the past, New World
resources gone gone over to the

646
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,360
States here.
Are you a bit more hopeful that

647
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,120
permitting and all these sorts
of things in in general in

648
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:56,760
America are speed along and New
World can be a a beneficiary?

649
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,240
Yeah.
So New World are reporting, you

650
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:06,400
know, some really positive
changes on the on the permitting

651
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:11,560
front, you know, they weren't
listed in the the 10 initial

652
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,680
fast track.
Projects that came out of the

653
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,800
the White House last week, I
think it was earlier this week.

654
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,400
But yeah, you know, they don't
really need to be because

655
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,240
they're sort of on the fast
track anyway expecting all

656
00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:33,520
permits to be in place sort of
Q1 next year.

657
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,520
And they're actually planning to
start pushing the decline down

658
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,240
ahead of that because because
they they they're permitted to

659
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,560
to do that.
So, yeah, look, you know, very

660
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:50,080
positive so long as Elon Musk
has insect everyone in the

661
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,080
administration that's required
to actually sign the payments.

662
00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:59,840
I think it's, yeah, it's been a,
a, a very good thing on that

663
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,720
front for American or US based
projects.

664
00:41:02,720 --> 00:41:06,040
And are are you still excited
then on an exploration front for

665
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,720
those guys specifically because
it sort of starts to get into

666
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:11,440
that development area?
Yeah.

667
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,880
Look that they have sort of
scaled back on their

668
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:20,400
exploration, but there's some
great opportunities right within

669
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:27,520
the existing ore body at Antler
in, in this is in Arizona, but

670
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:33,920
also they picked up a very nice
exploration portfolio within

671
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,400
satellite tracking distance
South of Antler.

672
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,360
So, yeah, and there's some
there's some great targets to be

673
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,400
tested on on that.
So, yeah, look, I think that is

674
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:50,280
the key, you know, that we've
seen, you know, companies say

675
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:55,880
like Spartan, for example, maybe
like Firefly to keep the

676
00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:00,560
exploration excitement going
while almost, it's almost, you

677
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,360
know, look over here, don't look
over there while while they're

678
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,880
doing the development and, and
sort of and then go, hey presto,

679
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:13,320
we're actually mining now.
You know, Spartan said, oh, you

680
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,240
know, we're doing this
exploration decline.

681
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,800
It's a production size, but we
just, you know, we're doing it

682
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:24,360
to get drill access.
But really, you know, it was, it

683
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,280
was sort of a a bit of a
surreptitious way of advancing

684
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,520
development while still keeping
the exploration excitement in

685
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:31,000
the stock.
It's.

686
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,600
All about the spin.
Absolutely I.

687
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,160
I can't help but notice, you
know, representations of some,

688
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,400
some more, more niche sort of
commodities in your, in your, in

689
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,120
your portfolio.
But this one's not too niche.

690
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,520
But silver, a lot of silver
bulls are kind of speaking up

691
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,760
about the, the, the excitement
that they could be in the silver

692
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,360
market at the at the moment,
especially because this goal is

693
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:55,720
run.
But silver's got legs.

694
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:58,160
Your prediction as well, John,
for the best performing

695
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,200
commodity of 2025, silver.
Right.

696
00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:03,280
I think it's got a bit of
catching up to do with with

697
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,800
gold.
It it, it moves faster when it

698
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,480
does move.
So yeah, I wouldn't rule it out.

699
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,040
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, How are you playing it?

700
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:10,960
It's very.
Yeah, it's very interesting.

701
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:15,680
Like last night, like, you know,
when gold jumped to 5005, oh,

702
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:20,200
sorry, 3500 US an ounce, you
know, on the, on the sort of the

703
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:25,000
Trump belligerence towards, you
know, Jay Powell in the US Fed,

704
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,520
you know, gold jumped, silver
didn't, didn't move.

705
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,320
But when, you know, Trump sort
of backtracked on on that

706
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,200
rhetoric, you know, gold came
back, but silver actually

707
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,040
actually moved.
So, so I take it from that that,

708
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,840
you know, and, and copper,
copper recovered, you know, at

709
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:48,000
the same time I take it from
that that silver is still

710
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,120
largely trading as an industrial
metal.

711
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:54,240
It's it's not trading as a
precious metal.

712
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,440
And yeah, you know, it's sort of
decoupled from from gold,

713
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,320
whereas normally it would be
more volatile than gold.

714
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,160
And when gold goes up, silver
goes up, you know, twice as much

715
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,160
and vice versa.
So, yeah, you know, silver's

716
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:15,760
trading at a very high or very
low, you know, gold silver ratio

717
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:19,720
of 100, 100 to one, in fact got
well over that.

718
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,040
So, you know, we normally would
think of it long term being at

719
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,360
about 65 to 1.
And when when silver really

720
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,600
takes off and starts trading as
a precious metal, it's down in

721
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,480
the sort of 3535 to 1.
So, you know, if that were to

722
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:39,240
happen, silver today is, you
know, 30 to $33 an ounce.

723
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:44,440
US, Yeah, you're looking at
north of 50 bucks an ounce for

724
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,640
silver.
So yeah, you know, I think

725
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,480
that's still possible, although,
you know, one of the big drivers

726
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:57,080
of gold has been central bank
buying and that doesn't apply or

727
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:02,560
hasn't applied to silver as yet.
There obviously is, you know, in

728
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:10,960
gold a geopolitical and premium,
if you like, for all that, you

729
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:16,960
know, conflict going on around
the world and you would think

730
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,400
silver should be able to
piggyback a bit on that.

731
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,360
But, but I think, you know, one
of the big factors driving gold

732
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,640
has been central bank buying and
that's been absent from the

733
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:29,480
silver market.
Final question from me, John, I

734
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,520
guess a bit more philosophical
about the industry and the the

735
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,160
specific part of the industry
that you've spent so much time

736
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,800
watching and and investing in.
Is there something that you

737
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,720
think in the junior end of the
market we need to see more of

738
00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:45,520
like a trend that might have
started already, something to

739
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,640
you, you don't like that you
think we should see a bit less

740
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:53,200
of if you could make sort of
changes from from above on on

741
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,360
the market is something there
that comes to mind?

742
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:05,400
Yeah.
Look, I think in Australia, I

743
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,600
think one thing you know, we
talked about IPOs earlier, I

744
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:18,880
think it has become much harder
for junior companies to to IPO.

745
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:25,720
You know, any that's, you know,
maybe it's not such a bad thing

746
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,040
if you compare it to North
America where there's several

747
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:36,560
thousand junior companies and,
and the compliance is arguably a

748
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:42,000
lot easier and cheaper.
Maybe it is, is a good thing.

749
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:46,120
But you know, in Canada they
have a a quite well developed

750
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,920
third board if you like called
the Canadian Stock Exchange,

751
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:56,000
which has got I think it's you
know, a couple of 100 resources

752
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,480
companies on it, maybe not that
many.

753
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,920
Whereas, you know, in Australia
we've had the national Newcastle

754
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,120
slash National Stock Exchange,
which really hasn't functioned

755
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,320
as as anything, you know,
effective way to raise any

756
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,640
substantial amounts of cash.
So, so I think, yeah, that's,

757
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:21,200
that's one thing I would like to
see the ability for companies

758
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:27,960
to, to get listed be slightly
easier here in Australia.

759
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,760
What else?
You know, and of course

760
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:40,520
permitting is in, in parts of
parts of Australia and it's, you

761
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,680
can't just say it's one state's
bad and one state's good.

762
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,960
But yeah, as a general,
permitting has become much, much

763
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,880
harder.
And you know, the overlays of

764
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:57,680
things getting kicked up to the
feds like the EPBC Pro process,

765
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,440
etcetera.
Yeah, you know, there's no,

766
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,800
there's no company that I've
spoken to who says, oh, we

767
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:07,920
really love our permitting.
It's it is prohibitive.

768
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,600
You know, if you've got, you
know, examples of companies

769
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,160
wanting to do $100,000 drill
program and having to spend

770
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:19,280
$200,000 on heritage surveys,
it's just, it just doesn't make

771
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:24,240
sense.
Yeah, the last one from me John

772
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:27,760
is yeah.
What's the like the fastest time

773
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,360
it's taken from for you like
from the beginning of a meeting

774
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,760
with the company, let's say the
beginning of the Zoom call, the

775
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,200
beginning of the meeting for you
to know that you were not going

776
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,480
to invest in that company.
Not going to invest.

777
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,640
Look, sometimes, you know, you
know, before you even start just

778
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:50,000
taking it to be to be polite.
But yeah, you know, there's

779
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,600
there are a couple of, you know,
presentations where you know,

780
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,520
they get get 5 minutes in and
you're sort of shaking the head

781
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,480
going and this is dreadful.
What are the usual valued or?

782
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,960
Yeah.
What are the usual kind of tells

783
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,280
that that are that you know
immediately make it kind of a a

784
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:12,720
no, a no go?
Look, I think 1, you know, in

785
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:15,440
the past and you know, this is
sort of going, that's opposite

786
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,120
to what I've said earlier.
But you know, when companies

787
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:20,920
come in and go, are we going to
get this into production, we're

788
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,360
going to use the cash flow to
explore our project.

789
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,440
And it's pretty rare to see that
happen.

790
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:34,280
So that is always a bit of a
amber light for me, particularly

791
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:38,320
little guys who haven't got any
experience in getting getting

792
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:44,560
into production.
Yeah, I think, yeah, you know,

793
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,480
and some of the boutique metals,
you know, they're, they're

794
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:52,640
always very tricky and just
pulling out I, you know, quoting

795
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,680
the, you know, the price from
headline price of a particular

796
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,640
metal.
You know, when you know that

797
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,160
actually that company won't be
able to realize that price if

798
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,080
they do get into production.
That's that's also a bit of a

799
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,840
bit of a red flag.
Fantastic.

800
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,120
Always great to chat.
John, Thanks for coming on Money

801
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,960
Mine again.
Look, absolute pleasure guys,

802
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:20,880
really enjoyed it and hope to
speak again sometime in the

803
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:22,480
future.
Thanks John Hedoroo.

804
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,600
Sensational.
Thank you Johnny, thank you.

805
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,120
Lol.
Resources, funds management.

806
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,360
These bloody funds just make
your name short.

807
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:31,800
I'm pretty sure they all got
that correct.

808
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,240
I think you did.
We can extend the thank yous.

809
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,280
Yeah.
GRX, get your tickets May 20 to

810
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:38,720
May 22nd.
Maddie's going.

811
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,760
Mate, can't wait Brisbane.
Come say goodnight, let's go to

812
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,160
the bloody what is it, Fortitude
Valley.

813
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:46,120
That's it.
Discounts in the show notes.

814
00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:47,920
Yes.
Also a massive thank you to

815
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,080
mineral mining services,
Grounded sand, Big ground

816
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,880
support, CRA insurance, K drill,
WA Water Boars, Portra Project

817
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,360
engineering, KCA site services,
Black diamond drilling services

818
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,120
and Cross boundary energy.
Thanks.

819
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:01,240
I don't have to scroll at the
bottom.

820
00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:06,840
JD Information contained in this
episode of Money of Mine is of

821
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:08,920
general nature only and does not
take into account the

822
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,520
objectives, financial situation,
or needs of any particular

823
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,560
person.
Before making any investment

824
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:17,600
decision, you should consult
with your financial advisor and

825
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,760
consider how appropriate the
advice is to your objectives,

826
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:22,960
financial situation and needs.