Taking stock of the lithium sector with whiz kid Daniel Rau

1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,160
I think this is how the the
industry views DLE in some ways

2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,600
to what fracking was in the late
1990s, where it was some turnkey

3
00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,040
that unlocked the economic
viability of more resource

4
00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:11,280
development.
For real Tinto they had with an

5
00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:14,320
exposure, they had an asset they
wanted to build and they wanted

6
00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,000
their hands on DLE tech.
But not just the tech, talented

7
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,440
operators and engineers.
Righto Money Miners JD We spoke

8
00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,320
with an absolute whiz kid,
Daniel Rau.

9
00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,160
He is an absolute wealth of
knowledge when it comes to all

10
00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,720
things about the lithium market,
market structure, the evolving

11
00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,880
cost curves, the the way
different technologies into

12
00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,760
play, the geopolitical dynamics.
I, I, we, when we got the chance

13
00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,160
to speak with, with Daniel, it's
a, a combo I've been looking

14
00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:41,160
forward to because he puts out
some just phenomenally

15
00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:44,520
insightful content.
And I'm envious because he's so

16
00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,880
freaking young and so smart.
I just, I really love this.

17
00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:50,520
I hope that the audience get a
lot out of it.

18
00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,160
This is, you know, an emerging
young talent in our, in our

19
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:55,960
industry.
And the way that he's kind of

20
00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,360
analyzed insightfully the, the,
what's going on in the very like

21
00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,360
developing lithium market is
really, really impressed me.

22
00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:04,599
Don't know what you thought
mate.

23
00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,520
I totally agree mate.
I'd echo everything you just

24
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,040
said there.
Daniel is a whiz and people

25
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,240
should just completely forget
his age because the work he's

26
00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,960
done is phenomenal.
And it was a really interesting

27
00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:17,960
discussion, right.
We, we talked about heaps of

28
00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:22,040
lithium related points from the,
the geopolitics that impact the,

29
00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,600
the debate, whether you're in
South America, Australia, North

30
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,760
America, China, obviously demand
and supply, who's ahead when it

31
00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,360
comes to technologies like like
DLE, where we're going to be on

32
00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,320
the cost curve in, in 10 or so
years.

33
00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:39,960
So I am pretty keen to to share
this conversation with the money

34
00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:41,920
miners mate, but a lot.
A lot of a lot of the chats

35
00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,080
about the, you know, the
evolving kind of cost curve in

36
00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,440
that, that lithium industry and,
and fittingly, it's, it's

37
00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,000
brought to you by a mining
partner that doesn't need to

38
00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,160
evolve.
It's already perfect, but they

39
00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,160
are constantly innovating and
evolving anyway.

40
00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,680
JD.
Sandy ground support mate,

41
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,440
AKADSI Underground Mining
Solutions.

42
00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,440
These guys are the Champions of
ground support.

43
00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,720
The new dynamic bolts are being
showcased at the Underground

44
00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,800
Operators conference in Adelaide
as we speak.

45
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,120
And that's only one port a call
for this company.

46
00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,760
If you've got needs, whether
we're talking bolts and cables,

47
00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,840
mesh, the latest and greatest in
resins, high strength grout, not

48
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:19,840
to mention their work in digital
systems.

49
00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,360
You want real time tracking of
ground conditions, Geotechnical

50
00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,120
measurement instruments for
precise monitoring of rocks,

51
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,160
structural conditions?
That's just a few of the things

52
00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:29,760
that this company does, mate.
Mate JD.

53
00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,560
Not to mention they've got
offices on the east and West

54
00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,960
Coast of Australia as well as
all over the world, because when

55
00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,680
it comes to getting bolts to
site, time is money so they can

56
00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,720
ship it from the closest factory
they've got the bolts at.

57
00:02:40,920 --> 00:02:43,880
Amazing.
In a nutshell, the best ground

58
00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,960
support in the industry, Safety
at the heart of what these guys

59
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,240
do, Pride themselves on their
reliability.

60
00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,480
Get in touch with Derek Heard
and the team details in the show

61
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,880
notes for all your ground
support needs.

62
00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,000
And on to our conversation with
Daniel Rao.

63
00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,560
Daniel Rao.
Am I saying your surname right,

64
00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,480
Rao?
Yes, Rao German for rough.

65
00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,440
God, gotcha.
You've got a fellow German, Jada

66
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,440
on the line with us.
The connection here, yeah, yeah.

67
00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,160
Mate, you have you've, you've
just been doing a wicked service

68
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,280
to, to everyone, I think, but by
sharing perspectives on the

69
00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,360
evolution of the, the lithium
industry, particularly with that

70
00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,840
kind of ADLE technical lens to
everyone for free.

71
00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,200
And I've been loving, I've been
loving your tweets, loving your

72
00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,680
threads, loving the way that you
think.

73
00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,280
You're clearly, clearly a really
talented young, young guy.

74
00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,080
And I'm really curious to have a
conversation with you about all

75
00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,400
of your learnings that you've,
you've had in the space in a

76
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,360
very short period of time,
because you probably know a few

77
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,440
lifetimes worth more than we'll
ever know about the lithium

78
00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,480
market based on what I've been
reading that you've been putting

79
00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:44,600
out there.
So thanks so much for joining

80
00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,720
us, Daniel.
Yeah, of course.

81
00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,120
Thanks, Trav.
Thanks for having me on.

82
00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,400
Mate, I just want to, let's just
kick things off.

83
00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,600
There's a lot that we're going
to kind of navigate throughout

84
00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,040
the this conversation.
And I think our, our, our

85
00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,640
audience is constantly kind of,
you know, trying to have a

86
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,200
debate about what the real kind
of supply demand balance in the,

87
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,200
in the, in the lithium market
looks like where you sit right

88
00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:09,840
now.
How do you see the the medium

89
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:15,400
term supply demand balance?
The medium term obviously market

90
00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,120
is a little bit oversupplied for
maybe the 12 to next 18 months.

91
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,440
And I don't see any supply or
supply disruptions are are

92
00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,400
surprises.
The upside on demand that put

93
00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,160
the spot market into a deficit,
inventory gets low and then you

94
00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,520
see that price accretion.
And so the question becomes are

95
00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,560
going to people, are people
going to put operations on care

96
00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,200
and maintenance?
And Even so, I don't think

97
00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,240
anything's going to happen in
the short term.

98
00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,880
I think, I think supply is in a
glut for the next 1218 months.

99
00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,360
Looking beyond that, everyone
asked the question is incentive

100
00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:47,920
price there?
Of course not.

101
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:49,840
When is incentive price going to
hit?

102
00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:51,600
Is this going to like project
development?

103
00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,560
And I think where the big
disagreement in the market comes

104
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,800
is a lot of your investor base
or or listeners are WA.

105
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,120
And currently WA projects don't
seem to be moving forward with

106
00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:07,160
spodge mean nearing $1000 a ton
or so, it's under $10,000 a ton.

107
00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,240
However, I think some of this
latent supply coming from

108
00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,560
Africa, Brazil will continue to
come online.

109
00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,000
I think that's from vertical
integration to Chinese

110
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,440
suppliers.
You have the pit of like

111
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,320
domestically that is getting
subsidized right from CATL,

112
00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,880
Tianqi, Gong Fen.
And I think while WA projects

113
00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,120
are Canadian spot green based
projects might kind of suffer

114
00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,120
and not not move forward.
That supply that has Chinese

115
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,240
ownership will continue to do so
and be able to adequately supply

116
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,800
that market in the medium turn.
Beyond then two years from now,

117
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,080
no clue.
I think that's a longer term

118
00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,280
demand question with ESS and and
EVs and where those inflection

119
00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:45,720
points are in the any market and
and EU market.

120
00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,160
And so for now, I'm not putting
my money in any equities, but

121
00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:53,160
I'm no investor.
If, if, if we break down Daniel,

122
00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:57,200
just quickly the, the demand
side of the EVs and and ESS or

123
00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,760
BSS as you just touched on there
like the, the growth from BSS

124
00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,080
has been pretty, pretty strong.
And I think the number I heard

125
00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,520
maybe you can correct me is that
20% of lithium demand recently

126
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,560
was going toward BSS.
How do you say that continuing

127
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,720
over the you know that period
set at 27 or so?

128
00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,160
Yeah.
So I think it's, it's incorrect

129
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,520
with every industry to take a a
growth rate from where it is

130
00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,520
today and try to extrapolate
that out for five to 10 years.

131
00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,560
And I think the ESS story is
actually one where long term

132
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:30,840
demand is actually, you know,
substantially underperformed

133
00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:33,200
what we expect.
And the reason being is if you

134
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,760
look at why ESS demand is
growing is for specific

135
00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,400
jurisdictions, it's a lot of
it's coming from government

136
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,560
subsidies, tax rebates,
production tax credits in the US

137
00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,560
administration a lot, a lot of
that is going to go away.

138
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,280
And in China, I believe they
recently just rolled back some

139
00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:51,760
form of a, a subsidy or
requirement for Bess to be

140
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,520
paired with renewables.
And so one part, right,

141
00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,360
government subsidization going
away.

142
00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,840
And then you kind of have to to
think about the energy storage

143
00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:01,920
market as a whole.
At some point it's going to

144
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,480
saturate.
I've had these conversations

145
00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,640
with the people at lithium
companies, right?

146
00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,800
There isn't going to be some
exponential growth forever.

147
00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,480
At some point it's going to ask
some tote And that's on a grid

148
00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,040
by grid basis.
And ESS compared with ruble is

149
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,480
right, It provides avoids
curtailment, right?

150
00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:21,480
And it can give you some, some
ability to power trade in the

151
00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,120
night time.
But as more ESS comes online,

152
00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,960
then the returns from each of
these ESS installments kind of

153
00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,520
diminish and eventually it's
going to converge towards 0 in

154
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,680
each respective grid market.
And so longer term for continued

155
00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,840
ESS growth, that's super robust,
right?

156
00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,360
We need actual growth and power
demand and United States story

157
00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,360
with data centers which
certainly have energy storage is

158
00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,040
backup, right?
You need uninterruptible power.

159
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,640
The the growth in power demand I
don't think is proven yet.

160
00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,920
They're quoting a 3% annual
growth rate from 2024 to 2023

161
00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,040
off the back of 2023, which is a
down year in terms of low

162
00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,440
growth.
And so moving forward, is data

163
00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,520
centre demand real?
I think DeepSeek moment and is

164
00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,000
putting question into that since
the United States is, is BSS

165
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,240
going to continue to grow
without federal subsidies?

166
00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,480
Not quite sure.
And and in China, again, there's

167
00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,880
just a removal of a requirement
on the for renewable deployment.

168
00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:18,880
So it's a little uncertain in my
eyes.

169
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,720
People maybe think about global
S what happens when those

170
00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:24,160
countries start to
industrialize.

171
00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,320
I think what people forget,
especially if they're not from

172
00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,720
the oil and gas industry or
don't have touch points, is that

173
00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,240
you do need base load for
industrials, right?

174
00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:35,159
If America's reindustrializing,
that power load growth is going

175
00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:38,480
to come from uranium, the
nuclear or in natural gas.

176
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,280
And I think you see a lot of
these oil and gas companies

177
00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,480
actually taking this thesis of
there will be power load growth

178
00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,320
in the United States at some
growth rate over the next

179
00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,080
decade.
We're going to fill out natural

180
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,000
gas demand.
A lot of this ESS deployment

181
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,520
plus renewables is actually
replacing coal fleets, right?

182
00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:54,800
And I think that's mostly true
in China.

183
00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,720
And so that gas fills this base
load growth in the Global South,

184
00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:04,160
ESS plus wind plus solar that
can only power homes.

185
00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:08,320
If, if these societies in these
countries are going to go from 1

186
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,480
billion people to 3 billion
people and actually develop

187
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,400
industry, it's going to be from
petroleum base feedstocks.

188
00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:17,440
At at least that's my thesis.
So I do put question in a longer

189
00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,760
term narrative of growth for ESS
that it's going to completely go

190
00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:24,720
gangbusters.
I think it follows some some

191
00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,680
asymptotes and I think when you
look at terawatt hour

192
00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:30,400
projections posted by some of
the consulting agencies, right,

193
00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,760
the the terawatt hour is
required to replace the whole EV

194
00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,400
fleet, something in the range of
100 terawatt hours for ESS.

195
00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,560
It's it's simply going to be
around that 20 terawatt hour

196
00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:41,560
range.
And you have to also think about

197
00:09:41,560 --> 00:09:44,360
the chemistry that's at play at
the ESS, right where we're

198
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,400
replacing fleets of coal powered
power plants.

199
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,080
Great.
There's amazing robust demand

200
00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,240
growth, but we're replacing with
LFP chemistry that is not

201
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,480
cycling at high C rates.
And so it's actually lasting

202
00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,320
quite a long time.
People are project developers,

203
00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,200
they're finding that it's
lasting 5710 years as opposed to

204
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,840
EV, which might be in that range
of five years and have a higher

205
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,080
replacement rate.
So once you get through this,

206
00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:13,120
this initial increase in ESS
deployment, the steady state for

207
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,520
this market is a still
replacement rate.

208
00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:17,880
And I think a lot of these
thoughts are more geared towards

209
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,120
the long term.
I don't in the medium term ESS

210
00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,800
growth is, is actually quite
ridiculous, right?

211
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:28,880
CTLI think putting out a number
of 700 GW hours by 2027, right?

212
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,200
That's certainly going to help
the market get out of its glut.

213
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,040
But I think long term it's the
main growth is coming from EVs

214
00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,000
getting every electric vehicle
on the road plus maybe new

215
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,640
opportunities or or mobility
solutions that emerge when

216
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,280
battery, battery chemistry
continues to get a little bit

217
00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,520
better.
On the supply side, Daniel, are

218
00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:52,520
you keeping pretty close tabs on
you know the, the, the expansion

219
00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,400
of, of, of, of new projects or,
or the new projects coming

220
00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,000
online like Kulamina etcetera
and also on the brine space?

221
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,240
Yeah, I keep good tabs in the
brine space.

222
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,640
Obviously Hard Rock, not so
much.

223
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:08,080
I I followed a little pedalite
thesis in China and and what's

224
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,920
going on.
I think it continues to grow

225
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,320
despite nearing 0 profitability
or negative margins.

226
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:19,000
Gulamina Manano, both Manano one
and two I think are part of this

227
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,200
medium, medium term supply glut
story.

228
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,880
And what you see if the Chinese
operators is that and this is

229
00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,280
across all industries a project
is at APFS stage it, it might be

230
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,120
viable, might not.
They don't care, right.

231
00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,640
They price these assets based on
security of supply for their

232
00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,080
downstream applications or a
revenue basis on like IRR for

233
00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:39,760
these Western publicly listed
companies.

234
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,800
So like Manano could maybe be
turned on when the legal stuff

235
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,400
is started out within 12 months.
I think there's many such

236
00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,640
stories in Africa with Spaji
project development where

237
00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,040
Western analysts are just
astonished at the speed and that

238
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,480
kind of times back to the the
human capital situation and and

239
00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,200
the quality of these engineering
procurement construction firms

240
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,960
in China.
Trav, what do you have smart

241
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,200
people working on an issue and
there's a national security lens

242
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,280
to having things get built.
They get done fast.

243
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,720
And so I think that's also one
of my my questions in this will

244
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,440
price run up like it did in 2021
to $80,000 a tonne?

245
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,680
I think structurally, no, but
you have to also consider that I

246
00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:22,120
think supply side response in
any instance where there's a

247
00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,000
deficit is going to be much,
much faster than it was in 2021.

248
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,080
The Chinese are on the ball, the
stockpile across the supply

249
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,840
chain inventory plus we know
where these assets are.

250
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,440
It's not like we're short of
where the rock is in the ground.

251
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,880
It's about building and and
that's why I'm I'm not entirely

252
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,400
bullish on on pricing and I
guess that plays into the DOE

253
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,680
story where it where it comes in
on the cost curve.

254
00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,040
Yeah, yeah, comments on on bass
and sort of demand, they're a

255
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,280
super interesting, right,
Because I think a lot of people

256
00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,960
in in WA kind of associate a
strong lithium price with the

257
00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,640
the electrification narrative
doing really well.

258
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,360
But if things like this are
lasting longer, that's better

259
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,920
for the electrification or the
the emission side of it, but not

260
00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,800
so positive for for the lithium
pricing aspect.

261
00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:15,040
And in terms of the the
inventories and and the other

262
00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,760
sort of mechanism with which
China has its sort of foot on

263
00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,240
lithium, how do you actually
think more broadly about their

264
00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,000
ability to I guess, manipulate
price at the end of the day and

265
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,520
their control on the price given
its strategic importance for

266
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,120
them?
Yeah.

267
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,040
So I'm not quite aware on
whether there's nefarious

268
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,040
actions at play like
intervention from the CCP.

269
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,400
What is true is that Chinese
lithium supply chain is

270
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,880
structured with a lot of
vertically integrated companies,

271
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,040
right Don Fan Tianchi, CATL to
the pedalite.

272
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,480
And like everyone says in the
industry on Twitter, on

273
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,400
LinkedIn, is that that vertical
integration enables them to have

274
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,280
lost leading upstream the supply
chain and, and repress price.

275
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,680
So I think that's, that's the
full story of what's happening,

276
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,880
right?
China's government offers tax

277
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,040
rebates, subsidization for
building up projects, special

278
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,920
economic zones, that they're
very effective at allocating

279
00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,800
capital and human capital and
get stuff built.

280
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,000
But once it's there, I think
it's, it's more of a capitalist

281
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:13,440
structure that's keeping it
going.

282
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,080
And so I do have some anecdotes
of from working at lithium

283
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,880
company and, and friends,
parents and, and friends that

284
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,360
work at lithium companies that
they do get a feeling that China

285
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,240
is strategic.
And when they, they pull these

286
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,560
levers in response to what,
where the market's going and

287
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,120
with the intention of affecting
Western project development.

288
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,400
I think that certainly is true.
But I mean, the question is, is

289
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,240
that not, not fair?
I think looking historically in

290
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,160
other industries, there might
have even been that that sort of

291
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:41,760
game played with Western
companies.

292
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,320
I think you just have to deal
with it and and what it means

293
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,480
for Western industries.
We kind of need to rethink how

294
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,040
we value projects and how we
value supply, security of

295
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,040
supply.
We can't just let public

296
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,960
equities decide whether this
project gets a shovel on the

297
00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,480
ground.
And I think you're seeing this,

298
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,560
this transition and how we think
about mining happen in the West.

299
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,960
There's a lot more private
mining vehicles coming up for

300
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,040
exploration.
I think we need a little bit

301
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,400
more of that in the West if we
we truly care about getting our

302
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,400
supply chain that's bifurcated
from China.

303
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,080
So yeah, they, they do
manipulate it, but I, I, I don't

304
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,560
think it's from something United
States couldn't do or the West

305
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,400
couldn't do, to answer your
question.

306
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:26,240
When you when you kind of move,
move further out Daniel on on

307
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,480
like the the very long term.
I know you've got some some

308
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,320
pretty interesting thoughts
about how you know the the, the

309
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,920
CapEx required to bring kind of
bronze online might actually

310
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,760
like alter the the lithium cost
curve over the long run.

311
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,760
Yeah.
So CapEx is, is where DLE

312
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:45,920
technology needs to get better
at.

313
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,200
When you talk to DLE resource
owners that want to implement

314
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,480
DLE, of course it's CapEx
optics, how that bakes into

315
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,280
project wide process economics.
But what is true brine projects

316
00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,680
are CapEx sitting low on the
cost curve, maybe C2 range or Q2

317
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,120
range.
And So what that means is very

318
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,120
price depressed pricey
environment is that projects

319
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,760
that should be getting developed
and over the long term if you

320
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,360
don't value it on an IRR will be
enormously profitable just

321
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,200
aren't getting built.
And you've seen commentators and

322
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,440
pundits in the industry say, OK,
big balance sheet oil and gas

323
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,480
companies, this is amazing for
the DOE industry.

324
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,040
And I think that is true.
You need companies that don't

325
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,520
care about where commodity
pricing is over the next two to

326
00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,520
three years to take ownership of
these projects, fund that

327
00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,920
enormous CapEx that's in the one
to $2 billion range and and

328
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,640
endure through 2-3 year periods
where they're making 10% gross

329
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,600
margins.
That needs to happen.

330
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,240
And I think only with those
larger companies entering the

331
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,760
space that it, it will happen.
And, and that fact about brine

332
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,840
project development and and deal
integration is kind of why

333
00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,160
you've seen incumbent producers
struggle to actually implement

334
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:53,920
it.
They're beholding to boards

335
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,520
quarterly reports they're only a
$5 billion company when that

336
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,160
investment thesis gets to the
board of directors every

337
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,119
quarter, they're saying no, do
this or that right to again

338
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,280
prioritize book value and and
how they're valued in equity

339
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,119
market.
So I'm bullish that Exxon Mobil,

340
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,440
Ecuador, Saudi Aramco is now
looking at DOE.

341
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,240
There's a huge US utility
looking into space.

342
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,200
Those sorts of things, sorts of
things are good, but they take

343
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,440
again, five years to play out
right.

344
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,800
Two years of construction.
Maybe you see President of new

345
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,160
DOE projects trouble struggle
through ramping And so whether

346
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,680
or not I don't think this will
have an immediate impact on the

347
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,920
cost curve.
It's it keeps getting getting

348
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,000
pushed out year by year.
But I, I am faithful that DLE

349
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,120
will have an impact, will be
successfully implemented and

350
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,480
then over the long term shift
the the cost curve back towards

351
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,040
Brian.
Dan, I'd love to just jump in

352
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:51,520
quickly and hear about the, the
potential implications of what

353
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:56,920
DLE implications could do to
recoveries and therefore actual,

354
00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,920
you know, annual production and
going one step further into to

355
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:05,120
mine life and production life.
Like can that if the recoveries

356
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:10,280
are better, say you can have
higher annual average output and

357
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,120
then does that also sort of lead
to to mine lives that are

358
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,280
potentially longer than they
otherwise would be?

359
00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,120
So we're implementing DOE where
pond is currently used.

360
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,680
You're implementing DOE, you're
maybe avoiding the pond.

361
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,320
OK, So when you put the lithium
in the pond, you have 50% of the

362
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:34,720
lithium crashing out, which then
goes to assault stockpile and is

363
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,120
effectively lost.
It's out of the aquifer.

364
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:38,840
It's not part of the life of
mine.

365
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:40,600
We talked about implementing
DOE.

366
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,200
You're maybe getting 90%
recovery within the actual

367
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,200
column.
And what's happening to that

368
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,480
water that still has 10% lithium
is that most often times they're

369
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,640
going to reinject it back into
the solar.

370
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,720
So for every one unit of lithium
coming out the solar, you're

371
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,040
getting 90% going to lithium
carbonate.

372
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,080
And that .1% is actually going
back in, in the pond system

373
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,720
without DLE, every one unit of
lithium coming out, you're

374
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:10,480
getting 50% that's wasted.
So yes, DLE will extend life of

375
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,720
mine.
A lot of these Brian assets are

376
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,120
not pretty substantially all
these brine resources,

377
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:21,480
especially the ones already
operating, they've got pretty

378
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,120
long life of mines and just like
a Hard Rock resource, they're

379
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:28,160
going to continue to drill out
holes and naturally expand that

380
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,280
life of mine to find a greater
resource.

381
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,080
And so no brine producers are
particularly concerned about

382
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,760
maximizing life of mine by the
implementation of DOE.

383
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,520
They've got their strategies
with what well as they pump

384
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:46,560
brine from to maximize life of
mine because you can think of

385
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,800
the brine underground also like
an ore body.

386
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,160
It's got high grade zones, low
grade zones and you're pumping

387
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,240
from wells such that you want to
get same concentration in the

388
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,360
front end.
If you were to prioritize or

389
00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:00,920
high grade a brine resource,
you'd be pumping really heavily

390
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:06,000
from the really good wells with
900 PPM lithium expending that

391
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,520
life of mine for the short term
gain, maybe market pricing shot

392
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,040
up.
They want to increase volumes,

393
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,600
but at the expense of.
Now, 10 years from now, your

394
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,240
your average Brian is not 600,
but 400, which has a much

395
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,000
greater effect on process
economics, especially when the

396
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,960
plant you've built is not really
designed for 400.

397
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,640
So your recovery rates might
eventually drop off just like,

398
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:30,440
think of it just like Hard Rock,
Yeah.

399
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,680
At at an aggregate level though,
you've you've got potentially

400
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,600
less brine's needing to be
disturbed, which is a huge

401
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,200
environmental benefit of
permitting benefit, right?

402
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,440
Yeah, a lot of these companies,
the permitting isn't necessarily

403
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,280
around brine disturbance.
There's responsible ways to do

404
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,920
it and the industry is matured
such that they operate brine's

405
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:59,040
responsibly.
A lot of the struggle with brine

406
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,040
expansion just comes down to
water.

407
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,720
Unfortunately, where there's, if
you're in Argentina, you're in

408
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,720
Chile, you don't have a lot of
fresh water.

409
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,880
They draw from wells that are
potentially part of a local

410
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,240
indigenous communities resources
and they've got to go through

411
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,400
the trials and tribulations of
expanding their brine, their

412
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,760
water pumping permit from 100
liters a second to 300 liters a

413
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,960
second.
And so DOE DOE doesn't

414
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,480
necessarily solve that.
There's ways to conserve water

415
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,080
whether or not you're using
ponds or or DOE the water

416
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,640
conversation conversation.
Let's say environmental concern

417
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:40,840
about brine's using ponds that
when you pump up the water 90 by

418
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,880
90% of it is evaporating going
to the atmosphere.

419
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,600
That water you couldn't drink at
all.

420
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,200
No one cares about that.
But what happens is the brine

421
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,440
level drops lower and lower and
lower.

422
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:55,440
If you're doing DOE that excess
water is getting pumped back

423
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,840
down.
So the brine level stay in the

424
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,800
same when you pump the brine
lower and lower and lower.

425
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,200
They're actually finding in in
certain parts of Chile, the land

426
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,560
is sinking a little bit.
That's not particularly an

427
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,760
issue, but what's happened is
the aquifer with all the brine

428
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,480
in it, it's getting depleted.
So water has to fill the porous

429
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,160
rock kind of just like oil and
gas.

430
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,520
And then that's drawing in water
from around the solar.

431
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,000
That's fresh water that people
drink.

432
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,320
So that I mean, that's the whole
impetus around SQM.

433
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:27,440
They've been thinking about DOV
for 6-7 years because the

434
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,080
Chilean government has said
you've been operating the

435
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,640
Atacama for 4030 years now.
The brine level is now 5 meters

436
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,920
lower and indigenous communities
next door are screaming at us

437
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,120
that they're water salty.
So you need to reinject.

438
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:45,360
So that's like use case 2 of DOE
reinjection.

439
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:49,400
First one was chemistry related.
Use two is need to reinject,

440
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,600
keep the aquifer stable and then
use three.

441
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,800
And four is you can't even have
evaporation ponds.

442
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,840
You're in a rainy place or the
evaporation pond cap ex op ex

443
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,720
becomes prohibitively high
because you're at 200 PPM brine.

444
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,080
So it's just actually more
economical to directly go to DLE

445
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,640
and accept it's challenges.
Mate all this chat about water

446
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,840
challenges has got me thinking
about one company.

447
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,800
WA Water Balls, the pre eminent
water well drilling company from

448
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,360
none other than Geraldton in WA.
You got 99 problems.

449
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:23,000
Gerald James WA water balls will
fix all 99 of them.

450
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,160
Especially the problem where you
don't have water.

451
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:29,440
It fixes that one every time.
Mate, I bet there are plenty of

452
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,040
individuals, plenty of
companies, minors, explorers,

453
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,120
whatever.
You might be out there and you

454
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:35,600
might be thinking about some of
these problems.

455
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,160
You either want to find water,
you want to get rid of water

456
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,640
trap, you want bore field
installations, large or small

457
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,920
scale water exploration, you
want to check your TSFS,

458
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,400
geotechnical drilling, recovery
bores, even breakthrough holes

459
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,320
for dewatering heaps heaps more
as well.

460
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:57,200
These guys can cover it all.
Look no further than the mud

461
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,000
Rotary experts.
They've got 6 high capacity

462
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,640
water well rigs.
They've got 2 road trains.

463
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:03,800
Check out the photos on
LinkedIn.

464
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,320
They can move them around
wherever you need to go.

465
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,120
The team is totally
self-sufficient.

466
00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:09,840
They've got the personnel,
they've got the equipment,

467
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,000
they've got the capability for
any water well drilling program

468
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,120
that you want to do.
Gerald James is a phone number

469
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:17,400
and e-mail in the show notes
mate.

470
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,960
Call him or or e-mail him.
Tell him about your 99 water

471
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,320
problems.
Let him help you.

472
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,720
Go Gerald James, go WA water
balls back to Daniel.

473
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,480
So it kind of frames like how
how we should think about the

474
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,960
long term.
If we're talking about groups

475
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,720
like that, they're going to take
a a view over 15 plus years on

476
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,360
on price.
If we zoom out from the kind of

477
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:41,480
next two year perspective you
just gave us, how do you think

478
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,040
about the supply demand balance
going beyond?

479
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:50,560
That again, it all hinges on
whether demand goes crazy or not

480
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,040
since you can look at Ed price
parity with ICE, when is that

481
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,560
going to happen in United
States?

482
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,040
I think potentially not for a
while even with especially

483
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,680
legacy automakers.
And so then you look at how

484
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,600
delayed is supplied to come
online.

485
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,480
I think all these Chinese
controlled brine projects, they

486
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,040
can be flipped on with the flick
of a switch, Chinese ownership,

487
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,760
Chinese processing expertise.
But you do at some point need

488
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,040
American based projects coming
online where Western European

489
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,240
projects coming online and the
longer price stays depressed,

490
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,280
the more those projects come
into question.

491
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,640
But I think you only need two or
three of those to start coming

492
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,520
online in the next year or so or
at least moving towards PDFs and

493
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,240
and getting built for us to to
stop worrying and smack over

494
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,880
basins, knock over formation in
the United States.

495
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,520
That's going to happen.
Some of these DoD projects in

496
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,400
South America, they're going to
happen.

497
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,240
But there's a technical
challenge there that's the

498
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,080
industry doesn't seem to have
have sorted out and there's very

499
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,200
few companies that have actually
implemented ADOE technology.

500
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,840
But what I tell people is that
Exxon Mobil as the best chemical

501
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,680
engineers in the world, and if
you give Exxon Mobil technology

502
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,400
that works at a pilot will put
it into production.

503
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,840
And with them in the space, I
think they're going about it

504
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,760
appropriately, evaluating
different DLE tech being slow

505
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,880
scaling up, not 50X jump from
pilot to commercial.

506
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,240
And so companies like that,
companies like Saudi Aramco, I

507
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,920
think have really cemented in my
mind that DLE will become a

508
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,720
factor.
When you look out to 2030, I

509
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,120
think Western WA Hard Rock, it's
going to be there on the cost

510
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:26,960
curve.
I think price is not going to go

511
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,720
much lower than it, it is today.
And if that only goes up to the

512
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,440
$1200 per ton of spot in SC 6, I
think those, those companies

513
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,560
survive.
I, I think the cost curve is

514
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,800
still steep, not in this medium
term.

515
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,920
I think it's a little repressed,
but there's room for Western

516
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,720
Hard Rock and Australia.
There's room for more Africa,

517
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,360
there's room for more Brazil and
there's, there's room for Brian.

518
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:51,840
I think everyone can be happy
and and eat their share of the

519
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,240
pot.
Everyone can be happy you need

520
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,360
their share of the pie, but the
the the marginal supply might be

521
00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:00,520
we might be unhappy about what
that is you keep.

522
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,320
A.
You keep a few people in WA

523
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:04,720
happy with that response.
For now, but.

524
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,480
We'll sort of say, yeah, I mean,
maybe we're jumping the gun a

525
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,880
bit here, but I think it ties in
well.

526
00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:15,760
Rio Tinto, we don't necessarily
need to talk about the deal just

527
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,400
yet, but the the cost curve that
they put forward for for 2035.

528
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,040
Can you can you share some sort
of perspectives you've got on

529
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,680
that?
I think I might have it on my

530
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,000
screen.
No, I don't.

531
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:31,160
Thoughts on that?
They claimed it's going to be

532
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,480
very, very steep and I just
mentioned it's going to get a

533
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,440
little bit steeper.
But I'm I'm not chauffeur, so

534
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,880
sure.
It follows this 2003 to 2008

535
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,240
copper thesis where it went from
like $0.80 a pound to to $4.00 a

536
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,480
pound.
I don't see that happening.

537
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,160
And I think you've seen comments
from other majors like BHP that

538
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,480
they kind of disagree with that
huge steeping cost curve and

539
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,400
that's maybe why they're not
playing in this space.

540
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,480
I think they got an amazing
company that has low cost assets

541
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,040
and so they're going to be happy
wherever the cost curve goes.

542
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,600
I'm not saying they putting out
that cost curve is them

543
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,760
posturing to the market, but I
don't see it getting as steep.

544
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,960
I mean, what, what market price
did they put on the right hand

545
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,480
side in 2035?
Traverse, JD.

546
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,080
From memory, it wasn't actually
marked.

547
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,760
It was, it was just the the
shape of it that we're trying to

548
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:27,040
imply on the overlay with with
copper to give an indication of

549
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,640
the steepness.
But I, but I could be wrong

550
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,440
here.
But the the clear distinction as

551
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,840
well was that you could
categorize some sort of DLE to,

552
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:40,360
to Brian to traditional Brian to
spod and say spod moving firmly

553
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,400
to Q3Q4 as a bit of a shift from
you know where we are here 10.

554
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,680
Years before, yeah, I can, I can
comment on that.

555
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,720
I mean there's two components
that shape that cost curve.

556
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:56,120
Where does demand go in terms of
kilotons LCE in 2035 and and

557
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,000
where's supply coming from of
course.

558
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,600
And I'm actually more aligned
with some of the banks on these

559
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,400
20302035 numbers that are now
below 3,000,000 tons LCE per

560
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,800
annum.
I think with every commodity

561
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:09,520
there's thirteen across the
supply chain.

562
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,280
There's efficiency gains on
cathode, on anode that increase

563
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,440
energy density.
Processing is getting better in

564
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,840
China.
And as price moves up, you can

565
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,600
actually maybe increase recovery
rates or yields at some of these

566
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,000
projects at the asset level.
And then about where supply is

567
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,880
coming from, I think an
important thing to note is now

568
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,400
that pricing is depressed and in
my opinion will be depressed for

569
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,360
two to three years to come,
where does growth come from or

570
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,280
incumbent producers, Right.
It's always brownfield expansion

571
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,320
and I think and I've been dug
into analyst spreadsheets on on

572
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,240
how they have this cost curve.
But I'm of the opinion that

573
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:49,520
maybe not accounting for SQM,
Albemarle, Rio Tinto, Pilbara to

574
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,640
achieve growth, right for equity
value, they're going to have to

575
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,440
do brownfield expansion where M
and A brownfield M and A some

576
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:57,920
projects right here in
production.

577
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,080
And I think that will contribute
supply to the cost curve that is

578
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,960
not quite steep, but in existing
cost structures at AC three

579
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,440
level and the lower parts of the
cost curve are simply going to

580
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,800
get a little bit wider than we
anticipated.

581
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,720
And then again that that
question always comes down to is

582
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,680
demand going to be 3.5 million
tons or 2.7.

583
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,520
And I think no one can tell at
this point, but you've heard my

584
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,560
ESS and and EV opinions.
The the supply growth from Brown

585
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:31,480
those expansions, I do think we,
we sometimes do underweight that

586
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,000
because naturally like a
producer is going up want more

587
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,200
economies from of scale to have
to lower their costs to have

588
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,120
more defensibility in a, in a,
in a, in a, you know, more

589
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,480
constrained or a lower price
environment too.

590
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,360
Yeah.
And you can look at some

591
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,920
comments on quarter lease and
in, in presentations from some

592
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,400
of the big brine producers,
right.

593
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,280
They're, they're heavily
pursuing operational efficiency

594
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,160
or increasing recovery rates or
expanding their palm systems and

595
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:00,120
I'm talking about SQM and
Albemarle.

596
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,000
So I'm sure those are baked into
models.

597
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,160
But broadly across these, these
midcap lithium companies that

598
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,960
have Hard Rock asset that's in
Q3 or brine asset that's in Q3,

599
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,320
they're certainly going to look
to expand 50 to 100% over the

600
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,840
next decade from their existing
project.

601
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,320
I think that needs to be thought
through.

602
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,040
I don't know how an analyst
would would go about this.

603
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,600
I'm sure someone can spend a
bunch of hours crunching numbers

604
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,600
and looking at hurdle rates and
balance sheets and and try to

605
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,600
pinpoint who's going to expand
and when.

606
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,120
I think that's just probably I
think across all commodities,

607
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,840
right Travert JD that that maybe
is not accounted for in in long

608
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,400
term demand thesis and spider
man balance.

609
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,440
Yeah, I think in general
projecting much further out than

610
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,480
a few years, you'll lose a lot
of a lot of accuracy as you as

611
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,200
you do that.
Yeah, I think, I think you

612
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,960
actually narrowed it really well
before, Daniel, when you said

613
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,040
the the tendency for us.
And I think this isn't limited

614
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,040
to commodities like you can see
in like NVIDIA earnings.

615
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,400
You just extrapolate what you've
seen in the last couple years.

616
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,520
And that's like on the upside
and on the downside as well,

617
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,040
right.
And it creates opportunities one

618
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,840
way or the other.
Yeah, now that you mentioned

619
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,160
NVIDIA JD, I'm sure someone
could put into model exactly

620
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,160
what I've talked about if they
slapped together in NVIDIA GPU

621
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,200
with 10,010 KS from across the
industry and value chain,

622
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,320
something I've always been
curious about.

623
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,000
I think if you crunched enough
numbers you'd maybe get 10% more

624
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,320
accurate on all these models.
While we're, yeah, just like

625
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,800
thinking about the longer term
supply dynamics, how are you

626
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:41,320
interpreting I suppose the, the
capital intensity and even kind

627
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:49,080
of operating costs of of the
SPOD projects kind of XXWAX

628
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,040
Canada, you know versus versus
WA Canada?

629
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,320
So that CapEx components, I
think you've heard Paul Graves

630
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,480
say on a call or investor
presentation, building hydroxide

631
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,600
in China is maybe 1/5 of the
CapEx, then doing it in North

632
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,040
Carolina.
And I think that's one component

633
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,800
due to structural macroeconomic
factors within China, labor,

634
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,640
energy inputs, foreign exchange
rates.

635
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,040
But I think it you have to give
credit where credit is due to

636
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:21,560
the actual Chinese engineers
here.

637
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,440
And so when you look at these
Brazil projects, so these these

638
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,840
Africa projects, where is the
ownership line, it's with a

639
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,000
Chinese company as DJN rights or
it's a Chinese EPC that as I've

640
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:35,200
mentioned can put a project from
conception to production in

641
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,880
maybe nine months.
And so for those projects beyond

642
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,880
the OR grade of the mineralogy
and and all that OpEx that is

643
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,960
reagents or energy that has to
be used to get ASE 6

644
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:51,120
concentrator or assault, right?
Like the the OpEx of Labor lower

645
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,920
the CapEx inputs for EPC fees,
right.

646
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,600
They have a very different
business model in China and they

647
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,880
move faster.
I think that means capital

648
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,840
intensively a African project,
Brazilian project is, is going

649
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:04,760
to be a little bit lower than
WA.

650
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,920
It's always a case by case basis
and I haven't done any of the

651
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,480
numbers myself.
But another component of this

652
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,960
OpEx is and this plays into why
China is really good at it can

653
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,440
actually extract and produce
some of these other critical

654
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,440
minerals, gallium, germanium,
rare earths is that a lot of

655
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,560
these hard ores to crack, hard
mineralogy you're going to end

656
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,480
up producing a lot of waste or
lost a lot of by product credits

657
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,639
that require a growing industry
to take your sodium sulfate.

658
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:33,199
And I think Sigma is one of
those examples in Brazil where

659
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:36,280
they they didn't
deindustrialize, they have soap

660
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,880
or dyes or Lye, whatever those
industries may be paper that can

661
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,040
buy your sodium sulfate for $50
a ton where in the United States

662
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,159
you've known to sell to.
And then it becomes a more than

663
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:49,960
$50 a ton treatment issue that
bakes into OpEx across a lot of

664
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,040
mining applications, mineral
processing, sodium sulfate,

665
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,320
Beyond that in China, course,
maybe some less strict

666
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,560
environmental regulations, but I
think those are a little bit

667
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,960
going away.
And so, yeah, byproducts being

668
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,920
able to sell those in the
market, that's very important

669
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:07,680
for project economics.
You made that.

670
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,720
Point when you when you were
talking about Pilbury's

671
00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:12,520
acquisition of of Latin, you
know like a a huge ability to

672
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,200
off take that sodium sulfate
really, really helps you kind of

673
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,640
your long term OpEx.
Yeah.

674
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,480
And that's actually one of the
reasons why the Tesla refinery

675
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,840
on Corpus Christi, right?
They're taking some NA

676
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,280
spodumene, going to process it
for Tesla cells.

677
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:31,360
They elected the new process.
That's not your typical acid

678
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,880
leach that's going to produce a
bunch of sodium sulfate waste.

679
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,520
They want a different route with
a process that the US, one of

680
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,280
the US companies back maybe the
60s or 70s had done in I believe

681
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,600
Pennsylvania or West Virginia,
where they're, they're not

682
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,920
making that sodium sulfate waste
for the exact reason of beyond

683
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,520
cost and contribution OpEx.
It's sometimes it's frankly

684
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,880
impossible to get permitted if
you're producing a lot of sodium

685
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,000
sulfate waste.
And there's, there's even

686
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,840
cathode projects out in, in
Europe where they simply could

687
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,720
not put their shovel into the
ground and spent years on

688
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:06,440
permitting because of the sodium
sulfate waste tissue.

689
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,280
And yeah, I mean, I don't think
this environmental permitting is

690
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,360
going to change.
And even in this administration.

691
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,520
So yeah, Brazil, they can make
sodium sulfate, they can sell

692
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,120
sodium sulfate.
I think that's a a big reason

693
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,240
why.
Not a big reason why, but it

694
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:24,200
certainly helps the the unit
economics process.

695
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,560
Economics for a project like
Latin Resources that Dale went

696
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,400
out and took over.
And didn't on the on the Chinese

697
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,200
side of things, when you're
thinking of like the, you know,

698
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,680
operating costs or capital
intensity, I get a lot of people

699
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,360
just assume that, that the
Chinese lipid light kind of all

700
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,360
fits in one bucket and it's very
high cost.

701
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,880
But you're a bit more thoughtful
in your in your analysis there.

702
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,520
Yeah, like SPAJ mean grade
varies, that means strip ratio,

703
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,360
amount of tailings you have to
store changes that bakes into

704
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,120
cost.
But at the end of the day when

705
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,600
you get to your, I think it's 2
to 2.5% lipidolite concentrate,

706
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,640
they find ways to process it.
This gets back to their human

707
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,360
capital advantage.
They also have, they do a lot

708
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,360
better job from a governmental
level paring university students

709
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,280
and research institutes with
industry specific problems.

710
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,000
They figure out ways to get by
it right and that's inventing a

711
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,840
new process or having their,
again, their lower cost

712
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,600
structure enable process the
West knows about but can't use.

713
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,800
They're able to implement that
in a processing and yeah, I mean

714
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,520
continuous kill.
And I think that's something

715
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,080
that's used in Spodring or used
in the pedalite even American

716
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,320
company wanted to implement that
out in North Carolina, but

717
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,000
higher CapEx, lower OpEx, trade
off.

718
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,960
I, I think a lot of what China
can do is one part human

719
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,280
capital, but also this, this
macro situation that mining

720
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:49,800
industry absolutely can't
change.

721
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,240
And so lipidolite, again,
there's a cost curve to

722
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:55,880
lipidolite itself.
A lot of it is slightly

723
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,480
profitable or at the margin on
this cost curve.

724
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,120
And as we touched on vertical
integration, subsidization from

725
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,760
the government, I think it's,
it's going to continue to stay

726
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,240
because China views EVs,
batteries, not objectively and

727
00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:12,040
from a capitalist lens, right?
It's a national security issue.

728
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,080
Short petroleum, they need to
go.

729
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,040
Long electricity generation.
That means we're not going to

730
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,640
use internal combustion
vehicles.

731
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,560
They have their macro to worry
about.

732
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,920
They want to keep EV cost low to
drive demand.

733
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,840
They're going to do all they can
across the value chain to to

734
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,160
keep these projects pumping out.
And right there was the the

735
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,920
Jiangxi, the pedalites question
maybe three months ago got shut

736
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,720
down.
People thought it was due to

737
00:38:34,720 --> 00:38:36,320
cost.
I don't know what the definitive

738
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,960
answer that came out the back
was, but it got me started

739
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,560
right.
So I think what pedilite here to

740
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,000
say, I think what people say
about it being a long term

741
00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:47,720
solution, it not being a long
term solution is, is absolutely

742
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:50,320
the point.
But I think China sees a light

743
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,400
at the end of the tunnel in
lithium industry where they've

744
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:56,000
acquired enough brine assets or
good Hard Rock assets counter

745
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,640
cyclically and when the pricing
was down from Western companies

746
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,440
that at some point they're going
to be self-sufficient with

747
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:07,560
recycling plus their network of
conversion because the epicenter

748
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,800
of demand is not going to change
in this industry.

749
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,000
Unfortunately, no matter how
much money the US government

750
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,520
throws at an inflation reduction
act, there's a technical

751
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,960
challenge of building these
projects from conversion,

752
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:25,040
refining, sell EV that China has
almost a decade or two lead on

753
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,760
and more engineers working on.
And so even the event that they

754
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,680
maybe are short supply, where
else is is Australia, WA, Brazil

755
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:36,880
going to sell to?
It's the China and so China's

756
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,280
the the price setter WA rest of
the world is price taker,

757
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,200
unfortunately, except the
vertically integrated lithium

758
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,840
companies that have their own
networks that sell to Korean and

759
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:51,200
Japanese film makers.
And I think I can't put a a date

760
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,040
on it, but it seems like within
5 to 10 years, China's not going

761
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,960
to have to worry about whether
the Pedilite is there to put

762
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,560
300,000 tons of LCE into the
market like it's projected to be

763
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,760
in the next few years.
One of the observations with the

764
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,400
rising inventories of, of
lithium carbonate, I mean, I

765
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,080
think I read you talk about the
fact that, you know, the, the

766
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,760
technological advantages that
are had among some of some of

767
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,360
the, the converters in, in China
are such that, you know,

768
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,800
they're, they're taking very low
grade, like low grade

769
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,520
lipidolite, creating carbonate
from it.

770
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,160
And then that's basically like
providing A glut to the glass

771
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,520
and ceramics industry.
But there's also the capacity

772
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,000
that they've got in China to
even turn some of that into

773
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:33,960
battery grade as well with with
sufficient blending.

774
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,000
Yes.
So it's it's not so much

775
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,360
blending. the United States or
the West could do exactly what

776
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,680
China is doing from a processing
perspective.

777
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,000
But the unit economics don't
make out right.

778
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,760
China has such a capital cost
advantage.

779
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,600
And so, yeah, they can take
technical grade and upgrade it.

780
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,600
Part of the reason why that's
actually viable is, well, these

781
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,240
converters are close to
downstream suppliers, sometimes

782
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,400
within a kilometer of each
other.

783
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,800
And so communicating specs,
qualifying material is quite

784
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,000
easy when United States, you got
to ship something across the the

785
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,160
ocean, or if you're from Chile,
Argentina, across the ocean for

786
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,160
45 days.
So this is the thing that I

787
00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:13,600
mean, there's nothing the US
couldn't do that China can't

788
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,440
from a technical lens.
It's all about speed of

789
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,640
execution, cost of capital.
And yeah, Bundy is a component

790
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,040
of it.
I mean Gong Fen is the Wizard of

791
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,200
the industry in terms of
processing know how.

792
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,720
They started off as a company
taking mother liquor from brine

793
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:32,600
assets, mother liquor being the
residual lithium brine that is

794
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,120
left when you precipitate your
salts, lithium carbon hydroxide.

795
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,640
They started off all the way
down there processing junk no

796
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,960
one else could process
economically making especially

797
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,240
lithium chemicals, and then
moved up the value chain through

798
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:49,560
project acquisition and and now
they can do anything with

799
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,600
anything, any feedstock, make
anything.

800
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:58,280
And I think that's know how that
the West has not been had wasn't

801
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,320
forced to develop to be viable.
And I think Joel Allery paints a

802
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,240
good story about the rise of
Gong fans.

803
00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:07,840
So shout out his podcast.
That's how I started off

804
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,360
learning about the industry.
The, the implications of what

805
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,600
you're kind of saying, they're
pretty, they're pretty daunting,

806
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,120
right For, for the West because
you, you end up in a situation

807
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,200
which we're pretty close to
already.

808
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,920
And we're definitely in that
situation in other commodities

809
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:29,640
and other metals where China
just has it completely by a, a

810
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:34,640
stranglehold.
So I if, if you were to say

811
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,200
advisor, a Western company, a
Western lithium company, a lot

812
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,960
of them tried to go downstream.
Are you just saying, Daniel,

813
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,680
that they they shouldn't put the
dollars that way or should

814
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,000
perhaps come more from a a
government lens or how do you

815
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,240
actually think about that
challenge that we're facing?

816
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,720
Won't put words in my mouth, JD.
I'm not a complete pessimist

817
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,880
about this industry, but I think
what these Western lift

818
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,760
companies have started to do,
right Cut headcount, get GNA

819
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,600
lower, try to survive this, this
glut and then brownfield

820
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,000
expansion is, is there a
realistic way to growth

821
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,200
vertically integrated to
hydroxide or value added

822
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,240
products?
If you're a spodumene producer

823
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:16,960
like Sigma's looking out with
lithium sulfate or or Pilbara

824
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:21,480
with their widgets, Pasco JV
right in Vietnam or Indonesia,

825
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,880
it makes sense.
But I'm always, I mean, I'm a

826
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,320
chemical engineer.
I always think about can you

827
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,600
actually execute on these
investments and that comes down

828
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,560
to human capital and the EP, CS,
your engineering procurement,

829
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,160
construction firms building
this.

830
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,120
And I don't think that an
executive level that's that's

831
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,000
always totally accounted for.
And I worked for an independent

832
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,280
engineering consulting firm that
kind of checks off on projects

833
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:49,720
at DFS for a project financer.
I'm sure they do excruciating

834
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:53,680
level of due diligence, but the
trade off is going downstream

835
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:56,680
versus brownfield expansion or
acquiring new assets just

836
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,680
continue being a spot mean
producer like an iron ore

837
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,480
producer elects to be and ships
everything off to China.

838
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,440
I think what there's an there's
an attempt to cross the industry

839
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:10,000
or we're feeling that if enough
people go downstream, it will

840
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,240
loosen China's grip on being
epicenter of demand and there

841
00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:16,680
will be more pricing leverage.
I think that that is true.

842
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,600
But unless you're a $30 billion
company and can kind of make

843
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,040
this move at scale, I don't, I
don't quite know.

844
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,440
I don't want to sound like I'm
an expert on what the board

845
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,560
should be doing, but do you bake
in some of this technical

846
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,160
understanding?
I think maybe it's not the right

847
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,960
strategic move.
Where, where did, where did some

848
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,040
of the, you know, incumbent
lithium producers go wrong over

849
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:44,240
the last few years, Daniel?
I'm no one to say Trav, but

850
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,640
hydroxide was certainly part of
the story where there was a

851
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,880
perception amongst industry that
the US and western markets that

852
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,160
craved E VS with higher energy
density, longer range.

853
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,960
Where going to grow faster than
they've had so let's put up

854
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,040
hydroxide capacity, which is no
small feat It's much more

855
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,400
difficult to get battery grade
hydroxide than it is to make

856
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,160
carbonate.
That comes down to some some

857
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,960
chemistry at play.
And so yeah, there's a build up

858
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,920
of hydroxide capacity with
assumption that Korean and

859
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,680
Japanese cell makers that
lithium producers had downstream

860
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,520
visibility into their supply
chains.

861
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,960
I mean all lithium producers
interact with those EV makers

862
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,720
that are downstream of the cell
manufacturers or Cam

863
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:31,000
manufacturers.
And I think the failure of that

864
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,160
or the, the misstep how they
didn't play out exactly how they

865
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,880
wanted to is, was more due to
the geopolitics and, and the

866
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,760
cell and battery industry not
being able to deliver, which

867
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,440
again, ties back to human
capital and, and the technical

868
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,800
challenge of actually building
these things and having them

869
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,400
work run at good run rates and
yield.

870
00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:53,120
So hydroxide, I think is, is
certainly one component of it,

871
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,480
but that story's not done right.
What, what a lot of people don't

872
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,080
understand is that LFP is a
temporary solution.

873
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,520
And the reason being is that
solid-state battery chemistry

874
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,680
will work at some points,
whether that's five years, 10

875
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,640
years from now.
The people that make conical

876
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,520
cathode don't care because LFP
chemistry is completely

877
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,840
incompatible with a solid-state
battery, whether that be

878
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,000
electrolyte or anode.
And this comes down to to self

879
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,480
physics, the thickness of your
cathode, the particle size of

880
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,400
your cathode.
LFP has been almost maximally

881
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:30,240
engineered to to be good at what
it is right now, but NMC still

882
00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:32,480
has room to grow.
NMC cathode, again for self

883
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,280
physics reasons, will be the the
chemistry paired with

884
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:39,240
solid-state batteries where
those selling cathode

885
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:42,000
manufacturers do a visibility
into where solid-state battery

886
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,000
chemistry is going.
And if they truly have the US

887
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,720
and not EU market anymore, the
US market locked down in terms

888
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:52,040
of Chinese LFP chemistry is not
getting the US market.

889
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,640
They don't care if they're a
little slow and not growing as

890
00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:00,320
fast as they expected with your
NMC cathode with a graphite or

891
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,400
graphite silicone anode because
they see the light of the

892
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:08,440
internal that four or five years
from now they'll have that, that

893
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,240
ownership of the hydroxide
market and high nickel cathode

894
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:15,000
know how to be selling
solid-state batteries, which

895
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,640
again, the cost of which are is
completely uncertain, like what

896
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,520
that cost will be on A to an
hour basis once it's fully

897
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,600
commercialized.
Whether that will be actually

898
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,120
lower than LFP or existing NMC,
it's it's unclear, but that

899
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,520
gravimetric energy density
unlocks new mobility solutions,

900
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,880
right?
EV tolls potentially even

901
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,040
aircraft at some point in the
far future.

902
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,760
And so I think the cell and
caffeine makers see that and say

903
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,160
what's the point of even
switching to an LFP based

904
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,000
battery, which some, I believe
some Koreans have attempted to

905
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,520
do or started to do.
And what also can't be

906
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,400
understated, it's not just the
the switching cost.

907
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,480
They've already put 10s of
billions of dollars in NMC

908
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,640
capacity.
But making LFP is hard, right?

909
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:01,880
I've mentioned it's different
particle size, etcetera.

910
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,440
Making the cells are hard, but
making that calf material is one

911
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:06,640
of the hardest things on the
planet.

912
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,080
It's a specialty chemical.
It's got very precise

913
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,360
morphology, which is particle
size and and geometry.

914
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,840
And even some western companies
are struggling to actually get

915
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:17,640
that done.
So it's a challenge of

916
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,320
switching.
It's the sunken cost in NMC and

917
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,800
it's the fact that that sunken
cost in NMC is not actually

918
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,840
sunken.
So if you're a Western lithium

919
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,840
supplier that has hydroxide
capacity, you're not worried

920
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,600
about where hydroxide is going.
And again, it's capital

921
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:36,280
intensive to make hydroxide.
It's technically challenging.

922
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,320
They don't see threat from other
lithium producers to serve them

923
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,920
in hydroxide market and they
sell above spot price, right?

924
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,520
They're not selling hydroxide at
$10,000 a ton.

925
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,800
A lot of these major producers
with strong relationships to

926
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,200
selling cathode manufacturers
have longer term fixed contracts

927
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,640
where there's this almost
marriage between them and the

928
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:57,440
producer.
And now it's not going to change

929
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:58,920
at all for the next two to three
years.

930
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:03,080
So hydroxide's not a mistake.
It's maybe an opportunity missed

931
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,840
where capital could have been
allocated to grow market share,

932
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,960
acquire resources.
Beyond that, I I don't think

933
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,040
there's, there's too many
mistakes.

934
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:17,000
As I mentioned, a lot of the
woes are just advantages China

935
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,520
has that unfortunately cannot be
flipped like a switch or

936
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,120
overcome or usurped.
Can can to get more of your

937
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,240
thoughts on pricing that you you
mentioned there and and off

938
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:31,360
takes and futures markets and
all and all these sorts of

939
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,200
things.
There is, yeah, some commentary

940
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,040
from some people running some
fairly big lithium companies

941
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:43,640
about the, you know, having to
peg to G fix spot and and all

942
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,920
these sorts of things.
Is that a part of the lithium

943
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,280
sort of world that you've you've
dived deep into and the

944
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,800
implications of those pricing
decisions?

945
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,440
So I can only comment on this
through anecdotes I've had with

946
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:00,440
people who've worked at lithium
companies.

947
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,480
Going to the GFX spot was a
mistake.

948
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,880
All lithium producers were
pretty content operating with

949
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,720
their downstream seller cathode
guy and selling a long term

950
00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:12,800
fixed contracts.
A lot of the pressure came from

951
00:50:13,240 --> 00:50:18,760
banks because back in 2021-2022
the, the consensus was demands

952
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,200
going to go gangbusters, get off
fixed term supply contracts that

953
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:26,600
are not working to a spot price
and get on spot price or at

954
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,320
least partially so that you can
increase earnings book value

955
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,160
that goes gangbusters as well.
And I think some people saw that

956
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,680
it was maybe a mistake, But I, I
think everyone within the

957
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:42,120
industry thought price was there
to stay at the $80,000 a ton

958
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,160
range for a little bit longer
than it did and then stay a

959
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,560
little bit higher after it came
down from that top.

960
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,880
So I'm not too familiar with the
futures and and options and how

961
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,480
that interplays.
Of course, it's a hedging

962
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,720
mechanism.
But I think there, there's

963
00:50:56,720 --> 00:51:00,720
comments recently by someone
from CATL or I think Chanchi

964
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,280
that pricing is going to be
continued to be volatile.

965
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,840
But I think it's within this
band where hedging yourself with

966
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,200
futures or options is not going
to make or break your

967
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,600
profitability on a quarterly
basis.

968
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,600
So it's a tool.
I think it's more so for pricing

969
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,800
visibility and in the events.
And of course, I'm not of the

970
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,520
opinion that there's going to be
some some crazy price run in the

971
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,280
short term.
In the event that that does

972
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:27,080
happen, it offers them some some
leverage durability because now

973
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,760
a lot of them are on on fixed
longer term contracts to reap in

974
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,600
the rewards.
That's interesting this, I

975
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,200
really want to ask you about
your, your views on, on Rio's

976
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:42,320
acquisition of of Arcadium to,
to Daniel.

977
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,520
I mean there were lots of
different perspectives on this.

978
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:49,400
And I mean, just like firstly,
how did you interpret the

979
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,880
strategic move from Rio?
What were they, what were they

980
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:53,360
actually buying here?
What are they after?

981
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,720
Yeah, I want to be clear, I I
heard nothing while I was at

982
00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:00,960
Arcadium with you and had no
insight to information the

983
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,480
public doesn't have.
But I was instantly of the

984
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,840
opinion that good for Rio Tinto
and good for Arcadia Lithium.

985
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,440
I think this ties back in the
DOE and bounce sheet impairment.

986
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:16,120
It's it's costly to sustain a
DOE project which was Arcadium

987
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,080
Lithium's flagship asset.
And so they didn't have the

988
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,360
balance sheet for all the growth
plans that they had and they

989
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,600
needed some of the bigger
balance sheet to come in and

990
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,920
push Canada forward, push more
Brian projects forward in

991
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,880
Argentina.
So I think it's a win win the

992
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,960
strategic lens.
I've, I've commented on this, I

993
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,680
believe on Twitter and again,
this isn't with information no

994
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,760
one else has, but it certainly
seemed like DOE was a motivating

995
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,640
factor there.
Rio Tintos Recon assets.

996
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,960
You can elucidate from lack of
announcements that maybe the DOE

997
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,960
tech they had wasn't going to
fulfil their dreams of making

998
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,120
that project producing 60,000
tons LC per year.

999
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,760
And so they needed a tool.
And I think this is how the the

1000
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,080
industry views DLE in some ways
to what fracking was in the late

1001
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,880
1990s where it was some turnkey
that unlocked the economic

1002
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:04,840
viability of more resource
development.

1003
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:06,400
Not saying it's as simple as
that.

1004
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,280
Of course there's challenges of
project development and the

1005
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,760
engineering side we can get to,
but for real Tinto they had

1006
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,120
within exposure, they had an
asset they wanted to build.

1007
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,520
And since the acquisition
announced, they're going to move

1008
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:19,680
forward with.
And so I think that paints the

1009
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,200
story for you that they wanted
their hands on DOE tech, but not

1010
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,360
just the tech counted operators
and engineers are kidding with

1011
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,240
you.
Some of the strongest Brian team

1012
00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:31,440
in in the world.
I'm lucky enough to talk to a

1013
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,640
few of them and and learned
under them.

1014
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:37,000
And so I can't understand how
key and experience in human

1015
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,120
capital is, is super important
for Brian project development.

1016
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,120
And so I guess that was Rio's
position.

1017
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,080
We have an asset, we want to
unlock it, who can do it?

1018
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,760
Can we also get a bigger
position in lithium market

1019
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,800
because we have the long term
steep cost curve thesis.

1020
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,440
And so I would say yes, DOE
technology was at play there.

1021
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,880
You can again look at public
announcements and elucidate well

1022
00:53:59,720 --> 00:54:02,640
right before Arcadium lithium
had invested in a prominent DOE

1023
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:06,200
tech that is great one of the
industry's leading and is good

1024
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,440
and can unlock assets so that
I'm sure that was part of the

1025
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,600
discussion or strategy.
I plan at Playa 3 O Tinto.

1026
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,200
And then of course they saw
ownership of of Hard Rock assets

1027
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,920
that they they have more, more
experience operating That is

1028
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,360
another path forward for for
value growth do.

1029
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:28,240
You think, do you think Rio were
like, you know, sufficiently

1030
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:34,280
motivated by wanting to not not
have, you know, wasted or, or

1031
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,320
sunk cost into Rincon that kind
of went, went nowhere or, or, or

1032
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,200
are they were they actually like
truly motivated by like they,

1033
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:44,680
they believe DLE will work?
I, I, I mean, I'm, yeah, just

1034
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,280
keen to keen to peel into like,
like is DLE actually real?

1035
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,200
Like do we have any, any
evidence that this this

1036
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:54,080
technology is going to actually
work and unlock projects?

1037
00:54:56,240 --> 00:55:00,240
Well, if Rio actually thought
Rincon was sunk, which is not

1038
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:03,960
completely true, and they wanted
to acquire a company with the

1039
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,560
DOE asset, they must have had
confidence that DOE technology

1040
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,440
would unlock Rincon.
And so is DOE real?

1041
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,000
Yes.
I think you can view it in a

1042
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,080
similar light of of not
technical challenge, but

1043
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,400
economic viability.
At some price DOE will be

1044
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,200
viable.
Whether that's $9000 a tonne or

1045
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:23,880
$15,000 a tonne, I I can't
really say.

1046
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,480
And yeah, steely will work.
There's some practical

1047
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,960
challenges there that can be
solved and kicked out from the

1048
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,680
engineering lens, especially
with some bigger companies

1049
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,360
wielding it.
But I think one of the biggest

1050
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:38,480
challenges that isn't really
talked about in the industry is

1051
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:42,400
is the value of pawns.
And why are kidding lithium and

1052
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,680
live events legacy process in
ombre murso actually works

1053
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:48,040
pawns.
You can think of them in a Hard

1054
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:52,160
Rock analogy for your listeners
as stockpiling ore and grade

1055
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,320
sorting and providing A buffer
to to make sure you're feeding

1056
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,640
the consistent grade ore to the
rum plant, right.

1057
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,560
If you're doing pure DLE and
you're not having ponds, you're

1058
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,480
pumping up lithium brine,
putting it in the front end and

1059
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,280
that brine has variable
composition plus minus lithium

1060
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,840
content and other impurities.
And that's one of the bulk

1061
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,200
challenges with actual lithium
processing, ramping,

1062
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,920
commissioning and getting a
consistent qualified product at

1063
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:19,560
the back end that in many ways
cannot be solved or avoided.

1064
00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,040
But the tech can get better.
The tech can get lower CapEx,

1065
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,320
the tech can get lower op ex.
And so you could build in

1066
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,520
redundancy through engineering
more units downstream that can

1067
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,960
process that variable inlet flow
or feedstock.

1068
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,400
So I think DoD, it's, it's all
question of cost curve.

1069
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:40,520
I think some projects are viable
in this $12,000 a ton LCE

1070
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,560
pricing range.
But the DOA technology itself is

1071
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:47,080
is getting lower and lower CapEx
as people have a lot of pilots

1072
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,920
hooked up, have visibility in
the future commercial sales to

1073
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,320
multiple projects.
Then they have leverage over

1074
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,040
suppliers of these absorbent
materials to give them a lower

1075
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,160
cost because those absorbent
suppliers producing higher

1076
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,240
volume, they've tanked out their
tech for many, many more years

1077
00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:04,920
and can negotiate suppliers and
deliver a lower CapEx system.

1078
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:07,760
The absorbent chemistry
themselves getting better,

1079
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:11,800
lasting longer, lower recurring
CapEx and yes DLE works.

1080
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:15,160
I think like anything, a new
technology applied to new

1081
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:18,840
problem requires some some time
to get rights.

1082
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:22,440
And I think the industry has
been here for 6-7 years now

1083
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:26,840
being serious about DLE looking
to implement it, make a reality

1084
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,880
and it's failure in the past is
not symptomatic of it being a

1085
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,480
failure in the future.
I think a lot of lessons learned

1086
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,960
across across the technology
value chain from the operator

1087
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:40,640
side and technology provider
that yes, DoD is going to be,

1088
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:44,040
it's going to play a role in the
future and hopefully my tech

1089
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:45,200
plays a role in that.
So.

1090
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:51,960
How do you think about the the
east verse Westlands on on DLA

1091
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,440
you got Chinese groups like like
Sun Resin and others, obviously

1092
00:57:55,440 --> 00:58:00,240
Rio and and Arcadian prior who
had been working pretty hard at

1093
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,680
it.
Do you think one side has a edge

1094
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,840
at the moment?
On the Zorbin supplier side, Sun

1095
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:10,640
resin I think is one of the most
amazing companies in the world

1096
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:14,240
and the fact that they're almost
monopoly of sorts on the

1097
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,720
desorbent side, which is those
chemistries that can selectively

1098
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:21,040
grab your your metal.
And So what they've been able to

1099
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,880
do is, is really commercialize
and puts forward a process

1100
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:27,240
technology, their simulated
moving bad system plus ownership

1101
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:30,320
of that absorbents, being able
to modify its chemistry for

1102
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,280
every various different project
in China.

1103
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:34,800
And I wouldn't say China's
ahead, but they certainly

1104
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,520
control a lot of the supply for
the raw material on the

1105
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,200
implementation side.
All these Chinese daily

1106
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,000
projects, they have ponds too,
right?

1107
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,200
You can imagine as little
Arcadian lithium on brain Muerto

1108
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,880
assets across China, a lot of
them operating at lower scale.

1109
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,240
And there's, there's more of
them and their brine chemistry

1110
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,280
is very amenable to what sun
resin has pushed forward their

1111
00:58:55,760 --> 00:59:00,040
lithium titanate absorbent
material, because lithium

1112
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,280
titanate works really well when
your brine chemistry is a high

1113
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:06,000
pH.
I'm getting into the weeds here.

1114
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:10,480
Traversal me to that's great.
But yeah, the, the high pH

1115
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,040
chemistry means that you get
your lithium capture very fast.

1116
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,360
So higher throughput per cap X
or capital intensity.

1117
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,800
The brine chemistry is good for
what sun resin has.

1118
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,720
And so that means a lower cap X
to implement.

1119
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,400
If you're to do this in the West
on solar type brines, which are

1120
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,680
higher pH, you're going to have
to dump in a reagent, which is a

1121
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:34,040
high op X to condition that
brine don't need to do that for

1122
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:37,240
a lot of these Chinese assets.
So the structural advantages in

1123
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:41,160
China, lower cap X and plus sun
resin having a good system makes

1124
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:45,680
it work.
Then I mean, that's simply the

1125
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,080
story, I guess in, in Chinese
daily projects, they have a

1126
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:50,880
chemistry that works for their
brine and you've seen sun resin

1127
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:54,400
try to export or implement
they're daily tech and some

1128
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:56,480
western assets.
But again, the brine chemistry

1129
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:59,600
is not good enough.
And their system, you have

1130
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,200
commented this on this on
Twitter as well, but a little

1131
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:04,880
more complex.
It's a lot of modules, hundreds

1132
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:08,880
of them to meet a rated capacity
of let's say 25,000 tons per

1133
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,040
annum.
When a resource owners

1134
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,240
considering adopting a
technology, right, they're going

1135
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:15,480
to look at the unit economics of
course first.

1136
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,160
They're also going to think
about this operation side and

1137
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:21,000
adoptability.
Can they have their engineers,

1138
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,520
their operators, their
technicians make this thing

1139
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:25,400
work?
Where they going to give off the

1140
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:29,040
master service agreement to the
Chinese technology provider when

1141
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,440
there's maybe geopolitical,
geopolitical concerns at play

1142
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,680
and it's often times a a trade
off where the Western lifting

1143
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,360
company says I'll pass.
There's alternatives in the

1144
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:42,320
market that look good or could
work with my brine chemistry.

1145
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,760
And so yeah, China has something
that works in their market.

1146
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,640
I don't think sun resin is going
to play a role in the Western

1147
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,800
market.
You can think of that

1148
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:53,160
unfortunately or fortunately I
don't.

1149
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:56,280
It depends who you are.
But the Western daily companies,

1150
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:58,880
they do have things that work.
And as I mentioned, it's, it's

1151
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:02,200
simply a cost curve issue right
now and market pricing issue

1152
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:04,760
that's preventing it from being
commercialized.

1153
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,200
So both both sun resin and now
Rio's kind of technology with

1154
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:12,360
with Iliad, they both require
ponds to actually exist 1st.

1155
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:15,600
Is anyone doing this effectively
without the need for ponds?

1156
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:21,680
So these technologies don't need
ponds to work per SE Trav, it

1157
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:24,240
helps.
And so I don't know what these

1158
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:26,680
lithium companies are thinking
with, with implementation, but

1159
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,120
it sounds like a lot of these
true DLE projects are going to

1160
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:32,880
be pondless.
And So what was the the second

1161
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:33,880
part of your question?
Yeah.

1162
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,680
It's like, is anyone actually
applying that and and seeing

1163
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,120
results be pilot?
Like is there, is there a line

1164
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:43,280
of sight to commercialization of
pondless daily being kind of

1165
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,640
like actually coming in low
enough on the cost curve to to

1166
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,440
displace existing units of
lithium?

1167
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:54,720
I can't comment to every
specific direct lithium

1168
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,320
extraction provider, but you can
elucidate on a conference

1169
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,480
looking at presentations that
yes some have successfully

1170
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,400
piloted in my mind meeting great
impurity rejection and a high

1171
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,800
lithium concentration.
You look at their unit operating

1172
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:12,880
costs and CapEx it it looks like
it's a step change compared to

1173
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,760
what has been used previously
such that someone could

1174
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:17,920
implement this.
I think it's, it is a cost curve

1175
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:20,640
issue.
All these daily companies, they

1176
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:24,560
they do in house piloting with
brine samples from dozens of

1177
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:26,120
resource owners across the
globe.

1178
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:29,920
And they'll send them back
there, their process samples,

1179
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,200
the chemistry that's coming out
the back end and their their

1180
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:34,120
unit costs.
And then they'll get to an on

1181
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,560
site pilot, which is multi
$1,000,000 investment to see it

1182
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,440
work in the field with pumping
brine from the well.

1183
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,720
And a lot of his companies, a
lot of these companies have

1184
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:45,300
gotten past that point where
they've succeeded, quote UN

1185
01:02:45,300 --> 01:02:48,240
quote, in a pilot environment
and even demonstration plan

1186
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:51,920
environments.
And so the that kind of for the

1187
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,560
for the listener that proves it
is technically viable if there

1188
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,120
seem to be good results or
announcements coming out post

1189
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:01,200
demo, why it doesn't get to
commercial, I think is is just

1190
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,480
this lithium market pricing
environment that that is

1191
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,920
preventing it.
What's the actual, if you just

1192
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:09,280
like zoom out the history of
DLA, like how are we actually

1193
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:12,960
seeing that evolve over time
and, and, and, and also like

1194
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:14,680
where is it?
Where is it at today?

1195
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:17,440
How can we kind of think about,
you know, it's it's it's

1196
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:19,000
imminent future and impact on
the market?

1197
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:22,840
Yeah, so.
There's there's a podcast with

1198
01:03:22,840 --> 01:03:25,680
John Burbot, who is one of the
original Dow guys, and Chuck

1199
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,320
Masterson.
They were fiddling around with

1200
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:32,040
developing a chemistry, I
believe in the 1960s for some

1201
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,400
smack over operations for, you
know, doubt upon.

1202
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:38,640
And then eventually that
chemistry got its hands into

1203
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:42,080
FMCS organization when they were
looking at how do we move on

1204
01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:45,680
from their existing assets in
North America because their life

1205
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:49,560
of mine was expiring and so they
are kidding lithium live event

1206
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,080
at the time.
Then FMC they're looking at

1207
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,360
assets all across South America
and they landed on OK, there's

1208
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,440
this asset Ombre Muerta West in
Argentina.

1209
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:00,440
Let's think about how we
developed this.

1210
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:05,400
And I guess the first use case
or requirement for DLE is it

1211
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,280
comes down to brine chemistry.
When you have your evaporation

1212
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:13,000
pond processes, you have a
sequence of ponds where a

1213
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:16,360
different salt and each one is
crashing out and you have more

1214
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:19,480
pure lithium water, another
salt, another salt.

1215
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:22,000
And depending on that starting
chemistry, you're going to

1216
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:24,680
precipitate a salt that's pretty
high in magnesium.

1217
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,280
And that salt precipitation is
going to take a lot of lithium

1218
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:32,880
with it and kill your yield or
recovery rate from maybe a 70%

1219
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:35,240
to a 40%.
And so the asset at hand with

1220
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:40,400
Argentina meant OK implementing
some chemical process after the

1221
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,960
ponds, but before the salt came
out was actually the again the

1222
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:46,520
lowest, lowest CapEx, lowest
OpEx way to do it.

1223
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:48,800
So they had that Dow chemistry,
they worked through it,

1224
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:52,720
implemented it.
And I believe that was in 1997

1225
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:54,840
or 2006 where it first got
implemented.

1226
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:57,640
And it's worked, right.
And you can see historically on

1227
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:00,760
10 KS and your reports that
impairment on the balance sheet

1228
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,120
of having to refresh the DLE
media.

1229
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:08,360
And so where is DLE today you
can imagine a system where you

1230
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:12,560
put this DOE media in it that
can bake in a cop CapEx and and

1231
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:14,680
how it operates.
Those have evolved.

1232
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:18,480
Certainly what Iliad has is a
Rotary bed absorption column,

1233
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:21,560
which is some fiber way where
you get more throughput given

1234
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:25,480
the same amount of of DOE media.
But the DOE media is also

1235
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:28,760
changed and of itself and that
comes down to to lab scale

1236
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:31,920
chemistry.
People have developed a new type

1237
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:35,680
of crystal that can grab more
lithium ions per unit weight and

1238
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:37,960
volume.
And that means you within a

1239
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:41,040
smaller column, which
contributes to CapEx, you can

1240
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:43,040
capture more lithium, release
more lithium, get more

1241
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:45,800
throughput.
So the Desorbin chemistry has

1242
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:49,000
evolved and people have done a
tour of things beyond the

1243
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:54,040
typical lithium aluminum layered
double hydroxide, we call it LDH

1244
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:58,400
to your lithium titanate, which
is used in in China is is fairly

1245
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:00,400
good.
And then lithium manganate,

1246
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:05,200
which is a lithium manganese
oxide and some of those right.

1247
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,360
They have a very amazing value
proposition in the lab where

1248
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:10,760
captures more lithium, releases
more lithium.

1249
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,040
But chemical stability is where
the the industry is really

1250
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:17,520
strong, but and where a lot of
pilots have failed when they

1251
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:20,120
actually go on site and operate
for six months.

1252
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:24,440
No resource owner wants a column
that they need to refresh every

1253
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:28,160
six to 12 months and have a
recurring CapEx item that's

1254
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:32,160
significant, maybe in the range
of 50 to $100 million every 12

1255
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:33,360
months.
That's, that's something they

1256
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:36,880
absolutely don't want.
The LDH chemistry through some

1257
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,760
research development in the
West, it's actually gotten quite

1258
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:42,280
good and quite stable.
And that's what the kidding with

1259
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,120
you originally went with.
And so some of these new

1260
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:47,200
chemistry's have have really
just not cut it.

1261
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,440
There's been a lot of innovation
on the column design.

1262
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:53,640
And so where your absorbent
stand today, LDH can certainly,

1263
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,600
it certainly is stands up to the
chemical stability task and

1264
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,960
implementation and whole game
has been around optimizing

1265
01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:03,400
performance of these columns,
new column designs where you

1266
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:05,360
eventually get a lower CapEx op
X.

1267
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:09,880
So I, I think publicly 1 of
Iliad's value propositions is

1268
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:12,960
that they have a new column
design more throughput that

1269
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:16,680
means your capture rates good
for lithium ions or throughput.

1270
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,880
You can use lower temperature
stripping brine, which reduces

1271
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,400
processed heat and your OpEx.
And there's other inventive

1272
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:27,280
solutions that people have
developed solvent exchange

1273
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:31,600
methods, membrane based
electrochemical and I think

1274
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:34,920
we're where those solutions
struggle is both on CapEx, OpEx,

1275
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:39,160
nothing's really beating these
LEH columns on cost basis.

1276
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:43,160
They also have their their own
challenges with environmental

1277
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:47,040
issues or or implementation
where solvent exchange on the

1278
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:51,400
solar site, these solar as you
can imagine as like the the

1279
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:54,200
ceiling of the solar is like a
great in the ground.

1280
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:57,560
So if any chemical gets on the
ground, even in the plants with

1281
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:01,000
a vinyl floor, resource owners
are very, very scared that that

1282
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,760
reaches into their brine
reservoir and then screws up the

1283
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:06,640
front end of the process.
So Solomon Exchange has its

1284
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,760
merits, but it's been struggling
to be implemented actually at

1285
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:13,560
the solar site for it's a
primary front end DLE.

1286
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,640
There's some very interesting
Electro chemical solutions that

1287
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:20,560
are there popping up, but those
have their own suite of chemical

1288
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:23,800
stability issues, which again,
is maybe one of the second

1289
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:26,399
selection criteria if you're a
resource owner beyond unit

1290
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:29,040
economics.
So there's a few very promising

1291
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,160
ones there and they, they'll
have their place, They'll get

1292
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:35,080
piloted, you might get to demo,
but industry wants something

1293
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:36,439
that's proven.
They want chemistry that's

1294
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:38,279
proven.
They just wanted it lower CapEx

1295
01:08:38,279 --> 01:08:41,680
and, and that's why it's, it's
really on the line of what Iliad

1296
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:44,399
is doing, I think is the the
correct research and development

1297
01:08:44,399 --> 01:08:46,960
routes.
And as it stands today, you can

1298
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:50,200
consider it's tech fully mature,
just waiting on market

1299
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:52,560
conditions.
And that's a company that's used

1300
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:56,720
their unique system design and
other applications like many of

1301
01:08:56,720 --> 01:08:58,720
the other DOE technology
providers.

1302
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:00,279
It's, it's really just a column,
right?

1303
01:09:00,319 --> 01:09:03,080
And you could swap out the
chemistry for another metal

1304
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:06,319
separation process or chemical
separation process.

1305
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:09,880
Other other SQMS and Albemarle
you know the the incumbent brine

1306
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:13,279
produces, are they are they
worried about DLE tech or are

1307
01:09:13,279 --> 01:09:17,080
they they pretty satisfied with
the the competitive positioning

1308
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:20,520
of the existing assets?
Yeah, no, producers are worried

1309
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:23,359
about the competitive position
on the cost curve with DLE.

1310
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:27,880
Yeah, nothing I've seen can
disrupt the cost curve.

1311
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:30,840
I'm going to go off and say what
I'm building hopefully can,

1312
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:32,080
right.
That's why I'm starting a

1313
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:35,200
company working on this tech.
But none of them are worried

1314
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:39,040
that we can't get our hands on a
DOE technology and and

1315
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:42,120
everyone's going to beat us.
They certainly view it as tools

1316
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:44,640
for unlocking new resources.
But for their own existing

1317
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:47,960
assets like the Atacama?
No, no one bats, I ask you as

1318
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:51,200
this, this environmental justice
lens from the Chilean government

1319
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:53,439
that's telling them they've got
to start reinjecting you need to

1320
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:55,880
DLE tech.
You can't use all these ponds.

1321
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:58,880
So that's why they're act super
active and trialing all these

1322
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:03,000
DLE technologies and other
technologies for water recovery

1323
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:06,840
and Desalina Tion Alamaro.
What I understand now they they

1324
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:08,600
don't even really bat an eye at
this.

1325
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:11,840
They've got a few engineers on
staff that look at it and

1326
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:16,000
they're more in this R&D phase
trying to land on something that

1327
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:20,080
eventually help them Co produce
from their Magnolia asset in

1328
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:22,320
Arkansas where they're currently
doing bromine.

1329
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:26,040
But incumbents, no, they're not
worried about disruption of

1330
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:29,800
their existing asset base, right
cost curve being flipped on its

1331
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:32,160
head.
It's purely for expansion new

1332
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:35,640
resources.
What like what are the

1333
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:38,560
constraints around actually like
why would they be so confident

1334
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:42,720
kind of having having, you know,
certainty in their in their cost

1335
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:45,600
positioning Like what are their
constraints to actually getting

1336
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:52,280
on a couple qualified product?
So this question is angled.

1337
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:53,720
Why are they not worried about
others?

1338
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:55,080
It's actually getting low on the
cost.

1339
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:58,880
Like if, if someone, if new new
new project, new technology is

1340
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:01,600
applied, like what are the
actual constraints that you

1341
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:04,120
know, you have to embark on to
actually prove that you can make

1342
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:07,160
kind of, you know, like a a
product qualified enough to to

1343
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:09,680
actually sell.
Yeah.

1344
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,280
So I mean, this is fairly
standard across chemical

1345
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:14,120
industries.
When you have a little pilot

1346
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:17,200
scale, you'll spend a lot of
money make it battery grade

1347
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:20,760
product and you'll send it off
to your potential off taker,

1348
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:23,640
Korean, Japanese, Chinese cell
maker or cathode maker.

1349
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:26,160
And they'll also test the
chemical composition.

1350
01:11:26,440 --> 01:11:29,040
They'll put it in their little
pilot process, see if they're

1351
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:31,160
cathode is spec, their cell
works.

1352
01:11:31,440 --> 01:11:34,080
They'll give you a thumbs up and
you have to subsequently go

1353
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:36,520
through this qualification
process as you scale.

1354
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:40,960
So little pilot confirm, OK, our
tech can work, let's scale it up

1355
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:44,280
at demonstration, another layer
of engineering challenge and

1356
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:49,000
actual operation.
Another sample QATC back works

1357
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:52,040
and then commercial, it's a
longer trialing process.

1358
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:53,680
You have to send them
potentially up to a ton of

1359
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,520
materials for them to do
continuous production on a

1360
01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:58,320
little pilot line for cathode
and cell.

1361
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:02,560
And I'm sure they do some level
of statistical analysis and

1362
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:05,120
random sampling to say, I mean,
we're fully confident this

1363
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:06,840
material is going to work with
our supply chain.

1364
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:12,840
And the worst thing a cathode or
cell maker can do is not be 100%

1365
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:15,760
certain that the specialty
chemical they're buying is going

1366
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:18,160
to work because they have their
downstream customers.

1367
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:21,320
And so probably across the
industry, this is what also is

1368
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:23,240
not talked about in these
incoming producers.

1369
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:25,120
Don't worry about their
position, the cost curve,

1370
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:28,680
because a, they're selling above
spot on long term fixed

1371
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:33,200
contracts to a Korean or
Japanese that they're going to

1372
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:35,120
be partners with for probably
the next decade.

1373
01:12:35,480 --> 01:12:38,600
And it's because it's so hard to
actually make very high quality,

1374
01:12:38,640 --> 01:12:41,640
especially hydroxide.
The Japanese and Koreans are

1375
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:44,440
very particular about the specs
they want and there's a lot of

1376
01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:47,160
tribal knowledge and how to do
that within companies.

1377
01:12:47,440 --> 01:12:51,360
That lithium processing was the
hardest engineering challenge in

1378
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:53,480
the world.
I'm, I'm 100% confident no one,

1379
01:12:53,480 --> 01:12:57,680
no new incumbent could make
better battery rate hydroxide

1380
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,880
than Arcadian lithium can do,
especially starting from

1381
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:03,560
scratch.
And so that's why they're not

1382
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:05,840
worried about their existing
supply relationships.

1383
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:09,200
They don't see any potential
disruption to the cost curve

1384
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:12,360
that'll make them unprofitable,
hurt profitability, but not make

1385
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:15,160
them unprofitable and have their
business be at risk as they

1386
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:17,600
screw up on their balance sheet
somehow from the executive

1387
01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:19,480
level.
And and that's why they don't

1388
01:13:19,480 --> 01:13:23,080
worry at all.
In my opinion, hydroxide is, is

1389
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:24,800
hard and that's part of the
right reason.

1390
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:27,920
There was this mistake, mistake
in the industry.

1391
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:30,720
There's this presumption that
hydroxide is going to go

1392
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:33,640
gangbusters because US EV
markets going to track and

1393
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:36,640
follow China and we own the
Chinese and Korean film makers

1394
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:40,600
that access this U.S. market and
they're only going to have two,

1395
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:43,800
three players in town, four
players with Kanchi to buy

1396
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,440
hydroxide.
We are not worried at all.

1397
01:13:46,440 --> 01:13:48,920
There's going to be this
premium, there's this technical

1398
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:53,880
challenge to make hydroxide by
us plus an 100 and and added 50

1399
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:57,560
to $100 million of CapEx to make
hydroxide instead of carbonate.

1400
01:13:57,720 --> 01:13:59,800
If you're building a new plant,
no brainer.

1401
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:03,880
And then of course, as I
mentioned while live, it didn't

1402
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:08,920
work out that way.
Daniel, that's like the the

1403
01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:12,000
difficulty you've talked to in
producing hydroxide.

1404
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:13,960
It's probably something I didn't
quite appreciate.

1405
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:17,160
Like we've, we've seen the, the
sort of stumbles and the

1406
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:20,760
struggles of the, the guys in WA
trying to go downstream.

1407
01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:25,000
I'd, I'd love to actually hear
from you how the difficulty in

1408
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:29,000
going downstream to produce
hydroxide stacks up against the

1409
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:34,160
other sort of challenges or
perhaps the the underappreciated

1410
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:37,600
difficulties in the lithium
supply chain out there today.

1411
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:44,120
OK, so first part is can you
repeat that spot?

1412
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:48,360
Just in general going on from
what you just said, what what

1413
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:51,200
are the the other parts of the
supply chain in general in

1414
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:55,120
lithium where the difficulty is
under appreciated by the the

1415
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:59,000
broader market?
Yeah, I think investment

1416
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:00,880
community is starting to have a
feel for this.

1417
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:03,760
But infrastructure development,
I guess a headache, half the

1418
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:06,840
CapEx for some of these projects
is not the plant, it's the part

1419
01:15:06,840 --> 01:15:10,080
infrastructure, it's the water,
the logistics of getting

1420
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:12,800
reagents and natural gas to the
plant.

1421
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:15,200
These brine projects, they're
literally in the middle of

1422
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:18,280
nowhere.
So, so far from anyone and

1423
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:22,000
that's under appreciated.
I don't think of an exact

1424
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,520
example where you'd attribute a
project delay or failure.

1425
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:28,280
So like quote UN quote failure
due to infrastructure not

1426
01:15:28,280 --> 01:15:30,280
working.
But if that add layer cost and

1427
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:33,160
logistics that no one thinks
about it, I guess your your

1428
01:15:33,400 --> 01:15:36,240
community out in WA probably
gets a feel for it seeing what's

1429
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:39,080
going on with with min rise
right on the Hall Rd.

1430
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:42,120
So that's not the biggest
challenge.

1431
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:45,200
It's I'd say it's actually
transportation and storage and

1432
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:48,320
packaging of of these salts is
something that no one really

1433
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:50,720
thinks about.
It is a solve science, but it is

1434
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:54,920
an non insignificant cost.
Hydroxide can't touch air,

1435
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:57,240
carbonate can't touch water,
which is in air.

1436
01:15:57,560 --> 01:16:01,520
And so it's a little little bit
of a learning curve to actually

1437
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:05,280
get samples and commercial
volumes out to suppliers.

1438
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:08,400
It it requires a lot of
relationships with traders and

1439
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:10,120
logistical partners to make
work.

1440
01:16:10,480 --> 01:16:14,600
And I don't think that prevents
anyone from going downstream.

1441
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:17,120
I think the big challenge is
this is actually making

1442
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:20,480
hydroxide.
I guess a lot of listeners also

1443
01:16:20,480 --> 01:16:24,320
don't quite get a feel of, of
the beauty of organolithium

1444
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:27,840
compounds and metal.
That's something arcadium is, is

1445
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:31,800
one of the leaders in.
I mean, that's where I did a lot

1446
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:33,440
of my work for them.
It's it's just a pretty

1447
01:16:33,440 --> 01:16:38,200
interesting space.
Second part of the question, JD.

1448
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:42,080
No, no, that that was it.
That was, yeah, I think a lot of

1449
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:45,960
those challenges are sort of,
you know, we, we just like to

1450
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:50,560
relate it to any other commodity
in, in WA and what you might be

1451
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:53,680
just pulling out the ground and
it's, it's clearly not the case.

1452
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:55,480
We've learned that over the last
few years.

1453
01:16:55,480 --> 01:16:58,760
And yeah, in in some cases, I
think the lesson's been learned

1454
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:02,560
rather expensively.
Yeah.

1455
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:06,000
What are you saying with the,
with, with the, you know,

1456
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:08,320
application of any technology by
the Russians in Bolivia?

1457
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:14,960
Yeah, I'd put that note.
I just I just through through

1458
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:17,320
the grape heard through the
Grapevine with some absorbent

1459
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:19,320
suppliers.
So I mentioned sun resin,

1460
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:22,680
amazing at making the chemistry
for metal separation the second

1461
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:27,440
best, not the pawn in America.
It's actually Russian company

1462
01:17:27,440 --> 01:17:29,720
called axe units because they've
got their domestic mining

1463
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:33,520
industry and and make weird
metals work at scale.

1464
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:36,440
And so heard from a couple of
them that there's an actual

1465
01:17:36,440 --> 01:17:39,560
strong Russian company in the
tech works using their one of

1466
01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:42,880
these people's orbit chemistry
that at piloting in Bolivia

1467
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:45,760
looks good.
I, I think viability is there.

1468
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:47,920
There's no question about the
quality of the resource.

1469
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:50,840
A kid in lithium, which was FMC
at the time, we're actually

1470
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:56,520
first looking at a uni before on
Bermuda West and elected to pass

1471
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:59,200
for the exact reasons people are
passing on now.

1472
01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:02,840
It's that jurisdictional risk.
They've got a very interesting

1473
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:05,880
person in office.
And I guess this also bakes into

1474
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:09,280
a wider mining industry of why
there's a larger discount rate

1475
01:18:09,280 --> 01:18:13,600
or a premium or not a premium, a
discount put on developing

1476
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:15,840
projects in Africa, right?
You got resolute, you've got

1477
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:18,600
ABZ.
Western companies can't operate

1478
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:20,800
in the places Chinese and
Russian companies can.

1479
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:23,200
That's just a legacy of of
geopolitics.

1480
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:26,440
And so I think a few other
Chinese companies have played

1481
01:18:26,440 --> 01:18:30,120
around in Bolivia.
The Russian company has, I think

1482
01:18:30,120 --> 01:18:32,640
they'll have their own questions
too about whether it's worth

1483
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:36,200
putting a billion dollars in the
grounds that assets probably

1484
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:38,000
just going to internationalized,
if I'll be honest.

1485
01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:39,400
Right.
What?

1486
01:18:39,400 --> 01:18:43,440
What happens if it is cracked
open by technological solutions?

1487
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:46,640
I think the technology could
prove it works.

1488
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:49,000
I I think at the pilot scale
it's worked.

1489
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:52,440
Why it hasn't moved commercial
is, is likely disagreements

1490
01:18:52,440 --> 01:18:55,000
between the government and these
producers or technology

1491
01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:57,440
providers on over what the
royalty rate is.

1492
01:18:58,480 --> 01:19:01,040
You think of crazy stories back
with oil and gas like same thing

1493
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:03,960
with OPEC aligned countries.
I want a 50% royalty rate.

1494
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:05,680
Well, our unit economics don't
work.

1495
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:09,280
We're not going to invest money.
They know what project ownership

1496
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:13,640
technology can make it work.
Those those resources or that

1497
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:17,160
resource and a uni can't use
pawns, totally can't use pawns.

1498
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:21,800
But I think the government is is
just not handling it right.

1499
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:24,440
And big missed opportunity for
that country.

1500
01:19:24,800 --> 01:19:26,960
You also have the thing about
human capital like that's what I

1501
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:29,920
I think the investment community
doesn't appreciate.

1502
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:32,200
And obviously you need people to
build and operate these

1503
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:34,840
projects.
And if you're in a remark remote

1504
01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:39,200
part of Bolivia and then you put
a billion dollars on the ground,

1505
01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:42,480
you have a plant that needs 500
people staff to work there.

1506
01:19:43,120 --> 01:19:45,920
The Russian company doesn't have
500 people, The technology

1507
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:47,320
provider doesn't have 500
people.

1508
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:50,320
The Bolivian education system
probably is not going to give

1509
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:54,200
you 500 qualified people to own
and operate this plant.

1510
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:57,040
And so that's another part of
the decision criteria.

1511
01:19:57,040 --> 01:20:00,800
It's not even getting to that
point because of jurisdictional

1512
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:03,760
related issues.
I yeah, I've really, really

1513
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:05,520
enjoyed the the the
conversation.

1514
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:08,280
JD, do you have anything else?
No, that's it.

1515
01:20:08,280 --> 01:20:12,640
That's yeah, fascinating.
It's a, it's a really, really

1516
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:14,640
interesting world.
And you're a, you're a wealth of

1517
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:16,640
knowledge in it, Daniel.
So I appreciate your time mate.

1518
01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:19,800
Thank you so much mate.
The the the list is can can can

1519
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:22,600
find you on Twitter.
I'll put a, a link in there in

1520
01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:25,360
the show notes, but you're
constantly putting out great,

1521
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:28,440
great insights all the time.
I encourage everyone to kind of,

1522
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:31,120
you know, kick, kick tabs on, on
your, on your thoughts and

1523
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:32,800
insights.
And thank you so much for

1524
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:35,600
sharing your, your knowledge in,
you know, a part of the market

1525
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:38,040
that that you know, we're, we're
curious to learn about.

1526
01:20:38,400 --> 01:20:40,160
Yeah, thank you.
First time on a pod.

1527
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:44,240
Thanks for having me on maybe
one day soon maybe I'll have

1528
01:20:44,440 --> 01:20:47,840
some more to talk about as well.
Hopefully you make it to to to

1529
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:51,240
WA at some point and we'll drive
to Katanning and and and make we

1530
01:20:51,240 --> 01:20:54,360
won't, we won't let Dwayne get
away with with cold fate.

1531
01:20:55,280 --> 01:20:58,000
You know, in the future we'll
we'll loop him in.

1532
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:01,480
Yeah, I'd love to have a a fight
with that guy.

1533
01:21:01,480 --> 01:21:04,360
Have you met him, Trav?
Not yet.

1534
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:05,440
Not yet.
One day.

1535
01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:07,480
One day, yeah.
All right.

1536
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:09,280
Cheers.
Nice to meet you all.

1537
01:21:09,560 --> 01:21:12,160
Thank you so much mate.
All right beauty mate, that was

1538
01:21:12,160 --> 01:21:14,600
a wicked chat and I hope the
money miners enjoyed it.

1539
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:17,040
A massive thanks to all our
partners.

1540
01:21:17,480 --> 01:21:22,040
Firstly GRX, the conference is
coming up end of May May 20 to

1541
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:23,440
22.
Get your tickets, there's

1542
01:21:23,440 --> 01:21:26,600
discounts in the show notes.
Also a massive thank you to

1543
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:29,680
Mineral Mining services, MMS
grounded, Sandvik ground

1544
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:33,880
support, CRA insurance, K drill,
WA waterboards, Quattro project

1545
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:37,720
engineering, KCA site services,
Black diamond drilling services,

1546
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:41,320
cross boundary energy and a big
Hodorote money miners.

1547
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:44,400
Hodorote The information
contained in this episode of

1548
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:46,760
Money of Mine is of general
nature only and does not take

1549
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:50,280
into account the objectives,
financial situation or needs of

1550
01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:52,960
any particular person.
Before making any investment

1551
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:56,040
decision, you should consult
with your financial advisor and

1552
01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:59,160
consider how appropriate the
advice is to your objectives,

1553
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:01,360
financial situation and needs.