No Spin, Just Tin. Brett Smith on MetalsX and Every Tin Project

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Our criteria would be sort of
relatively low country risk,

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reasonable grade or low cost to
bring into production for us to

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to be shortlisting projects.
Brett Smith, executive director

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of Metals X, among many other
titles, which we'll get to when

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the first time you probably, you
probably were shown or, or

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someone, someone showed you some
commentary that we or that I've

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made about Metals X.
Did you ever think you'd be

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invited to sit in here and have
a conversation with us?

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Or do you think these guys are
Muppets?

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I didn't think Muppets.
I sort of, I understand what you

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guys do and I think one of you
came along to one of our Agms

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and there was a chance to have a
bit of a chat with you then.

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And it's look, it's I like the,
I like what you guys do.

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I think it's interesting.
You, you, you know, your mix of

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guests brings different
perspectives.

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You know, good luck.
You know, hot cop has got a

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certain following.
You know, you, you, you, you

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guys present a pretty balanced
view of things.

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Yeah.
I appreciate that.

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Glad, glad, glad to be called
balanced, mate, yeah.

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Pretty balanced, don't get.
Ahead of yourself.

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Which which Muppets would you
like to have?

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I don't know.
I just I just I reflect on yeah,

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I reflect on the the journey
it's been talking about metals X

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and like, you know, we're
upfront Ding Ding, Ding metals X

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shareholder.
You also see on the the board of

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the executive chair of no non
executive chair of.

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Of.
Matt Gibson, which which

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shareholder of we also got to do
a Ding, Ding, Ding of as well.

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So we'll get the disclosures out
of the way.

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We're conflicted, but we, we
thought you'd be a very

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interesting person to talk to
because of a few reasons. 1 is

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just our, our long relationship
with, with the mystery of metals

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X the, the, the continuous
discourse we've had about

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capital allocation, the intrigue
of this, this, this, this, this

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shareholder AIPAC and the, you
know, the curious kind of like

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discount that AIPAC entities
seem to trade at when they, when

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they're quite cash generative,
being Middlesex and, and, and

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Matt Gibson keen to unearth a
lot of that.

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You're a, you know, you're a, a
very experienced operator like

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you, you were the, the CEO of
Asenko amongst many, many roles.

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And, and I, I just think there's
a rich conversation to be had

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here about tin, about Middlesex,
about capital allocation, about,

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about China.
And we're delighted to to have

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you accept our invitation to
join us, Brad.

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Yeah.
Well, I think you know, given

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that you, I don't know when you
bought into Middlesex, but I

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think when I come on the board
it was about 8 cents, seven and

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a half cents.
It's now $0.87.

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So I think regardless of whether
for any shareholder, I think

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that's been a pretty good turn
around.

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Are they?
It has indeed.

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And it's in one of the most
fascinating commodities, one of

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the most fiercely loved
commodities out there in in the

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world of punters that follow the
metals and mining space.

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So, yeah, tin it's it's an
endlessly fascinating commodity.

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The the supply Side Story is, is
extremely fascinating as well.

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And yeah, there there's so much
we want to talk about with with

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regards to to Middlesex.
Where where specifically do you

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want to keep this one off?
Trav company or?

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Let's let's go to the, the, the
beginning, because when like,

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yeah, when, when you came onto
the chair, well, Gameshare, like

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Middlesex was a much more kind
of complicated company.

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There was a distressed asset in
in in Nifty which was which was

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taking a lot of management time,
attention and and capital.

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Worse, worse than management
time.

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It was costing us a million, 1.2
million a month.

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Yeah, in holding costs.
It was a yeah, it was nifty.

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And it was the Wingalina, Yeah,
nickel cobalt assets.

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You know, this just, again, just
looking at how we change

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Middlesex, there's only one
employee of Middlesex.

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That's me.
Yeah, I'm, I'm a firm believer

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in that companies generally have
too much overhead.

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And so it had a big corporate
office on, on, on the the, the

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terrace, whole bunch of guys who
were doing stuff that probably

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didn't need to be done.
And these assets which were just

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sucking cash, you know, that
the, the, the tin asset, which

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was their jewel was mortgaged
against a loan to support the

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development of Nifty.
They were in breach of their

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banking covenants.
They were, they were, you know,

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I can't, I'd like to use an F
word that you'd probably have to

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edit out, but they were in
serious bloody stress.

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So we had to look at, you know,
getting the overhead costs down

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as quickly as we can, finding a
way of getting rid of the, those

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assets which had value but just
didn't have, we couldn't do

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everything at once.
We couldn't maintain the cash

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burn, refinance the company and,
and, and fix the 10 assets.

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It just wasn't possible to do
everything.

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So I got rid of all the
overhead, looked at APAC for a

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loan so that we could pay out
the Citibank debt.

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That took the pressure off the,
you know, losing the 10 asset

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because it was mortgaged against
the 10 asset and then started to

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a sale process for Nifty.
And I think we did quite well

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out of that selling that to the
guys.

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Now that the the Cyprian Strike
pack ride guys are looking at

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turning that around.
We've retained a significant,

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yeah, we got a fair bit of money
for it.

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And then we've retained a
significant number of

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convertible notes which are now
in the money which will give us

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a return there.
We spun off Wingalina into a

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separate listed company.
Now no one knew what was going

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to happen in Indonesia at that
stage with the massive increase

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in the latter production there.
But that that, that looked a

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good strategy until all that
production came online.

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And so we got rid of those two
assets.

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At one point, Nikko had a pretty
healthy market.

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Cap Oh, it did.
It did.

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It did because it's a great
asset.

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It's one of the best undeveloped
nickel cobalt assets in the

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world.
It's just, it required, like all

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of the laterite jobs, it
requires a huge amount of CapEx

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to get it started.
But it's a great asset and it'll

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eventually get built.
It'll eventually get built.

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So that freed us up just to
focus on the tin.

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We, we, we at that stage had no
debt.

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And then we started just looking
at what we could do to improve

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the performance of the tin
asset.

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It had been starved of capital
because everything had flowed to

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Nifty.
So we started to look at

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regional and near mine
exploration because nothing had

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been spent on it and doing the
little things we could do to

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improve the productivity of the
process plant.

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Renaissance.
Renaissance is actually making

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free cash at this point in time
the entire way through.

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It's coming.
It's it's just bubbling out of

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it.
Yeah.

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And so even when even when like
metals X was was distressed

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because of of nifty effectively
renison is the jewel that's

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still.
Got a profit things out, yeah,

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yeah.
But but that it's it's not a low

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cost mine.
It has been shut down in the

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past when the tin parts.
Tin parts dropped, yeah.

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But we have that period in 2122
where tin just goes goes through

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the roof for for a period and
the cash flow is, is really,

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really strong, right.
It's pretty strong now too.

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Yeah, I mean today, but we're at
a pretty healthy tin price, you

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know when when you look back now
37,000.

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Oh, it's great.
It's and I can't see significant

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increases on the supply side,
which is going to erode that tin

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price in the medium term.
You know, we, we and I spend

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most of my time looking at
potential acquisitions.

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And so I've looked at every tin
project in the world more than

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once and there just isn't, you
know, the, the guys in the Congo

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are going to complete their
expansion and that'll bring a

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bit more tin back on.
I don't believe Indonesia ever

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stopped producing tin.
It it was just porous.

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So what was leaked, what was
being leaked out, leaked out

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through unofficial channels.
But that concentrate didn't seem

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to disappear from the market.
It just didn't flow through the

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official channels.
And mine was coming back on, but

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coming back on quite slowly.
So your your friends at at

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Yunnan, do they help give
insight obviously on that, that

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Myanmar aspect they they'd have
reasonable insight into that

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wouldn't.
They, well, they buy, they buy a

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significant amount of their tin
from Myanmar.

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But I was up in Yunnan Province
a couple of weeks ago, which is

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on the sort of border with
Vietnam and that sort of area.

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They're talking to all of the
the smaller smelters who also

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bought a lot of teen from Myma.
And you know, we got one view in

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Australia as to what was
happening in Myma.

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You talk to the people there and
you got a very different view of

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what was happening.
And that that that involved

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trying to balance the relative
power of the two different

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militias by.
And so there was this, you know,

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China also wanted to see certain
stability in that region.

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So there was some some some use
of Chinese purchasing power or

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stopping purchasing, which could
be used to help balance the

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power between those militias.
So it's a lot more complicated

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than we thought, which was just
that these guys decided not to

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sell tin.
Perhaps no one was buying tin

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from them.
And that's slowly starting to

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come back on now.
But because they had been, you

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know, they'd had disrupted
production and all sorts of

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other problems.
It's only ramping up fairly

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slowly, but there's a global
shortage of tin concentrate.

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Just looking at all the little
you know what's happening in

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copper where people are dropping
their treatment charges because

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there just isn't enough
Capricorn, That's going to

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happen in tin because a lot of
the old smelters had had their

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own minds, so they had a supply
chain to provide concentrate or

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to provide tin to them.
Those mines now have dropped in

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grade or exhausted.
So at some stage they'll have to

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be a like a consolidation
because some of these smelters

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can't exist competing at lower
and lower treatment charges for

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tin concentrate.
So I think we're going to see

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short term, we're going to see
treatment charges drop.

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Longer term, we're going to have
to see a consolidation of that

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tin smelting capacity,
particularly in China, because

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the smaller guys who had their
old, had their own minds and had

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their own concentrators don't
have the raw material from their

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own supply chain.
And they're going to have to

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compete globally to buy the
concentrate and that's going to

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keep the keep the price up.
Yeah.

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Can you speak to the point there
just one more on on Myanmar of

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the the higher grade resources
actually being mined out?

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Like is it a a point of them not
not selling any sorts of things

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or well?
I, I, I think that there won't

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be a lot of what we would
classify from a Western

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perspective of, of exploration
in Myanmar.

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So there probably is opportunity
for people to go back and have a

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look at it with a different
exploration lens on.

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But the what's what's happening
there is people just mining

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what's an existing Nolan
resource and and that that gets

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depleted relatively quickly.
This is the the man more complex

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to it we're speaking about
specifically in Myanmar, Yes,

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yeah.
Yeah.

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Is that is that what you're
asking?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And is, is that like, what is

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the nature of that like mining
operation, Is it just like?

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It's a combination of Hard Rock
and alluvial, depending on where

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you're where you are.
Yeah.

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And some of it is quite small
scale, yeah, like you'd see like

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you'd see in parts of Africa.
I've tried to look at it on

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Google Earth and I just get
confused on yeah.

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Yeah, I do know.
I do know, you know, concentrate

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traders who are going into
Myanmar and actually talking and

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buying from these guys.
And they're describing it to me

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like I remember how the Congo
was 35 years ago with this sort

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of small guys collecting, you
know, semi beneficiated product,

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putting it in bags.
There's other contractors buying

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those bags and trucks and then
taking them to places and then

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therefore being further
processed.

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So it's sort of Artesia, you
know, it's it's not a very in

224
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,640
places, it's not a very
sophisticated operation.

225
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,480
So that in that, that means it's
difficult to ramp up quickly?

226
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:14,560
So the Congo is still like that,
aren't they?

227
00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,280
I.
I think they still might be.

228
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,200
So this, this all ties in really
well Brett with, you know, you

229
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,880
assessing the options out there
and and M&A and you've obviously

230
00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,440
done some deals elementals comes
to to to mind first team as

231
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,280
well.
So how do you kind of pick and

232
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,520
choose and and speak to the the
assets that you have sort of

233
00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,640
done a deal with?
It's nice to have more than one

234
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,040
horse in the race.
So that's that's that really is

235
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,600
our strategy that both of these
we think are good projects.

236
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,760
I used to be, even before I was
involved in Middlesex, I used to

237
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,400
be on the board of Ello Entos.
So I've always liked that

238
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,640
project.
That Petrogic in Spain is a,

239
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:58,880
it's a good low cost, open cut,
simple concentrator relatively,

240
00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,800
you know, sensible operating
costs in an area which needs

241
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,000
economic development.
So they're the sort of things

242
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,000
that you would think would make
it a good project to develop.

243
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:11,880
Europe is complicated for
permitting.

244
00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:15,440
I know that from Dragon where
it's taken us in a longer than

245
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,800
you'd ever expect to get permits
for new mines, but the, you

246
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,920
know, the Elementos guys have
taken their feedback from their

247
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,920
previous permitting
applications.

248
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,400
They've learnt what was
necessary now to resubmit.

249
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,160
And they've done a good job sort
of changing the, you know, some

250
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,920
of the layouts considering what
the water management issues are.

251
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,160
And it's usually water in
Europe, which is a permitting

252
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,560
issue.
And I've resubmitted the permits

253
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:43,560
and I think they've got a pretty
good chance of, of seeing those

254
00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:47,440
within 6 to 8 months.
And that, and that'll, that's,

255
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:53,200
that's, that is really the key
for, for having confidence

256
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,000
because all of these projects,
you know, should you can do

257
00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,400
usually the metallurgy is OK,
Usually the, you know,

258
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,760
everything else you can manage.
But the permitting is always

259
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,240
such an uncertainty wherever
you're developing A mining

260
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,840
project these days.
Then two, you have confidence

261
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:10,000
that you're going to get the
permit.

262
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,120
Taking that risk on a major
investment is just difficult.

263
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,560
So instead of taking a a full
risk, you, you've, you've

264
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:21,840
bought, you know, a, a very
considerable seat at the table

265
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,240
with a, with a, yeah,
substantial shareholding

266
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,840
awaiting a permitting outcome.
Is that the right

267
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,640
interpretation?
That's and that's the same thing

268
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,080
we did with First Teen.
Yeah.

269
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:37,840
So the idea there is that we can
make a decision as to do we do a

270
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:44,400
list code play or do we look at
a asset related joint venture or

271
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,080
you know some other form of
investment at A at a asset level

272
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,480
to enable us to have a a
significant stake in the

273
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,480
development of the project, both
the first TIN project and the

274
00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:56,760
Elementos project.
Yeah.

275
00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,240
Yeah, yeah.
And 1st tin like as it comes to

276
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,720
permitting for them, do you
think there's a similar time

277
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,560
timeline in front of them?
Yeah, it's, it's NSW, but it's,

278
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,840
again, it's in an area which has
been a historic tin mining area.

279
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,880
They've done their public
consultations just recently.

280
00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,760
And there's a, there's a trigger
in New South Wales that if you

281
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,600
get more than 50 objections, you
have to follow a longer

282
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,280
permitting path.
They only got 5 or 6 so that

283
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,040
they're not on the extended path
for the permitting, which is

284
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,440
great news.
And again, they've done a, a, a

285
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:34,640
very considered sort of, you
know, not rushed permit

286
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,600
application.
It's, it's a very benign, it's

287
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,680
not a sulfide type ore body.
So there's no acid rock draining

288
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,960
type issues.
It's, you know, the, the waste.

289
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,320
There's very little overburden
because they've basically

290
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,200
classified everything as ore.
But it's, it's so it won't, it

291
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,080
won't provide a significant
environmental legacy.

292
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,480
So it should be a relatively and
it's in the middle of nowhere.

293
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,880
There's just bloody feral pigs
and prickly pears around there.

294
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,120
So there's no environmental
damage that you're going to do

295
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,440
to that area.
Yeah, the the thing that like

296
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,680
with 1st 10, it's a a lower
grade.

297
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,800
Yeah, I didn't understand.
To be honest, I didn't

298
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,960
understand how it could work at
that grade, because normally if

299
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,320
something's less than 1% ten, I
don't even look at it.

300
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:22,520
Yeah.
And what changed the game?

301
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,640
There the the the the the
recovery, the very simple

302
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,560
recovery process flow chart that
you need to recover the tin your

303
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,320
base.
It's basically just grind and

304
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,560
gravity.
The considerate is a very coarse

305
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,200
crystal and in even if it in
crushing it fractures and

306
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,120
separates quite easily.
So you can just screen and then

307
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,320
a gravity type circuit to to
recover the considerate.

308
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,800
I think there's upside being a
junior, it's looked at

309
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,600
increasing the tons of tin in
the ground and the size of the

310
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,200
thing as high as possible
because they think that's the

311
00:16:58,200 --> 00:16:59,400
right thing to do.
As a junior.

312
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,480
I think when you actually come
to development, you could look

313
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:07,160
at a the same way you'd mine a
narrow grade gold system where

314
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,640
you'd be digging selective even
if you're open pitting it, you'd

315
00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:14,400
dig selective trenches rather
than just do a big mass bulk

316
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,319
excavation process.
When you can see the ore body.

317
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:20,520
The considerite is in bands.
You know every a couple of

318
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:22,319
meters there's another band of
considerite.

319
00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:25,880
If you looked at a more, you
know, a different, you'd reduce

320
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,800
the total tons of tin, but I
think you'd up you'd bring up

321
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,040
the grade you were processing
and that may affect the

322
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,920
economics.
But for the IT, it works the way

323
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,200
they've done the financial
model, but I think you could

324
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,280
improve it later as you move
closer to to actually developing

325
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,560
a mine plan.
Elementos is autopassa as well

326
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:49,760
is far below 1%.
Yeah, Yeah, there it's well, but

327
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,320
it's a very low cost mining,
very low cost mining, yeah.

328
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,560
And what should we, what should
we read into the, the assets and

329
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,480
the, and the projects around the
world that that Meadows X hasn't

330
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,120
been able to do a a deal with,
given that you've looked under

331
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:07,640
the hood at as many as you can?
Well, when you say we haven't,

332
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,360
haven't yet, haven't yet,
haven't yet, you know, of

333
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,440
course, you know, Stellar is
interesting because it's just

334
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,760
around the corner to us and
we're in constant conversation

335
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,280
with those guys.
And you know, I know Rusty well,

336
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,520
yeah.
So you know, there there we is

337
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,280
is a sensible collaboration in
that area.

338
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,440
One of the things that's
interesting is we have a rentals

339
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,120
project, which is a tailings and
and you guys you you guys seemed

340
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,640
prejudice towards or prejudice
against tailing free processing

341
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,240
projects.
If you've watched enough for you

342
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,360
I podcast.
You're the mining engineer, not

343
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,240
me.
I I think I've come to

344
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,240
appreciate like the, the like,
like I was, I was being critical

345
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,840
of that relative to returns to
shareholders that could be

346
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,560
distributed and you know, the,
the IRR on rentals for the CapEx

347
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:57,800
that required.
I was thinking, why don't you

348
00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,280
just, why don't you just buy
back your stock?

349
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:00,720
You're so cheap.
Yeah, yada, yada.

350
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,920
And we can, we can get to that
bit later, but we'll.

351
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,080
Start well, we'll talk about
capital and we'll talk about

352
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,800
capital allocation and
investment theories and all that

353
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:14,360
sort of stuff.
But the yeah, MMG up the road

354
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:15,880
have got a problem with
tailings.

355
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,200
Anyone who tries to develop a
new mine in that area is going

356
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,640
to have a issue with tailings.
We've got we're out of the

357
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:29,480
tarkwine we've got now we've got
the NGOs are quite happy with

358
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,200
what we're doing down there in
terms of the tailings thing.

359
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:38,640
So having a having a single
large tailings resource that the

360
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,640
regional mines all pump tailings
too, it would be an easier

361
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,240
solution for a number of players
to get permitting and to develop

362
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:49,880
their projects.
They'd not be quite quite an

363
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,120
expensive endeavour to pump.
How far would the tailings have

364
00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:53,520
to be pumped from all of these
operations?

365
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,400
From from Stellar or from MMG?
From MMG, yeah.

366
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,000
No, we're just up the road.
OK.

367
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,840
Yeah, both.
You can pump tailings relatively

368
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:01,600
cheaply.
OK.

369
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,280
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, that's
interesting.

370
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,520
Yeah, and.
So Stella said, coming back to

371
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,680
that, Stella's an obvious one.
That's interesting.

372
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,920
There's, you know, the the lower
grade stuff up in North

373
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,480
Queensland, in Australia's.
I don't think that's that

374
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,400
interesting.
You know, I had a look at the

375
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,920
stuff in Brazil when they were
selling the stuff up in the

376
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,440
Amazon and the smelter in Sao
Paulo, the stuff in Morocco's

377
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,120
interesting, but maybe maybe a
bit late now for us to get

378
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:35,880
involved in that.
Congo's, you know, my board is,

379
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:41,760
is probably not that interested
in in Africa, though.

380
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,960
I'm not scared of Africa.
I've worked in the Congo of

381
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,440
Cinco in many different places
and that was coming.

382
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,240
Yeah.
So I think, you know, our

383
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,760
criteria would be sort of
relatively low country risk,

384
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,160
reasonable grade or low cost to
bring into production and a

385
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,480
reasonable way down the
permitting Gale for us to to be

386
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,000
short listing projects.
Yeah.

387
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:08,520
Yeah.
So we've we'll go to Stella

388
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,480
first.
But with Stella there's there's

389
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,360
there's you know, you say JVII
think synergies in my head that

390
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,320
that could be had there.
It's down the road.

391
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,800
The the, the, the one thought I
have though is like metals X

392
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:27,480
metals XS interest in in
Renaissance is is via this this

393
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,000
JV and maybe you can give some
context on the JV, but are there

394
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,320
any, are there any limitations
to like to, to, to doing

395
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,320
anything with with stellar
doesn't have to be done at that

396
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,320
JV level?
Stellar is in the area of

397
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,600
influence under the J VS
definition, so it would have to

398
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,480
be discussed at the JV level
before anything was done.

399
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,720
There's a sort of circle of so
many kilometres around the

400
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,040
asset, but that that wouldn't be
an impediment.

401
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:57,200
Yeah, yeah.
And when we, well, maybe we

402
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,360
should talk about the JV as
well.

403
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:00,760
There's so many moving parts
with, for a company with one

404
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,040
employee.
There's a lot going on, Brett,

405
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:09,800
the, the, the JV like Middle
Middlesex, you know, over the

406
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,440
last last 12 months has, has,
has publicly been trying to, to,

407
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,160
to potentially consolidate part
of that JV.

408
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,080
Can you add some colour on on
like how that situation came

409
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,840
about where it where it got to
and you know, like what, what,

410
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,200
what, what are the kind of
restrictions or sure or

411
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,960
permanent?
Things within that JV Renison is

412
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,680
a 5050 JV between Middlesex and
Unintin Australia.

413
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:40,720
Unintin Australia is a 20% owned
by Unintin, the Chinese smelting

414
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:46,280
company and 80% by Green Tech, a
Hong Kong listed company which

415
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,760
is a single asset company.
It has a small tin trading

416
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,520
business, but it's, it's, it's
main asset and it's only revenue

417
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,520
source is really it's revenue
from that joint venture.

418
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,360
They were suspended on the Hong
Kong Stock Exchange because the

419
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:06,080
auditors couldn't sign off on
the accounts.

420
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:15,120
It's, it's so that made it that,
that to us looked like an

421
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:17,280
opportunity.
We thought that with the

422
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,920
suspension there may be a number
of shareholders who could be

423
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,600
interested in selling.
There's two major shareholders

424
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,720
who own probably about 6 between
the pair of them, they own about

425
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,120
60% of the company.
We thought we could probably mop

426
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:33,640
up a number of the smaller
shareholders and then look to

427
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:38,000
use that as a platform for a bid
for the whole company or to look

428
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,120
at doing what would be the
equivalent of a 249 day in

429
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:45,520
Australia to look at questioning
the board and the reasons for

430
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,040
the suspension.
We, we, we did make a bid was a

431
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,440
low bid.
The guys in Hong Kong being

432
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,800
savvy, only a small number sold
to us.

433
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,480
So you can get some come back.
Yeah, they, they thought that

434
00:23:58,480 --> 00:23:59,920
we'll come back and make another
bid.

435
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:07,520
So we are considering of course
another bid and and yeah, we've

436
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,840
we've of course worked out what
we think it's worth based on our

437
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,920
EV value and what that revenue
stream would be and everything

438
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,000
so.
But there's financial due

439
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,360
diligence that.
Financial due diligence is

440
00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:20,960
difficult when it's under
suspension because they can't

441
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,800
legally release any information
to us which hasn't been released

442
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,880
to all shareholders.
So you're making some next to it

443
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:28,360
or or you're making?
Yeah, you're making some.

444
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:31,240
Next to, well, we and we don't,
we don't really want the listed

445
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,320
Hong Kong entity.
We just want the revenue stream

446
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,480
of the 80% of the joint venture.
That's that's what we'd like.

447
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

448
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,960
And like where?
Like what's this?

449
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,720
What's the status of of?
We have to, we have to wait

450
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,320
after making a bid up again.
The Hong Kong regulators have

451
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:51,840
rules which are different to
Australia.

452
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,080
There's a time period that we
have to wait before we can make

453
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,440
another bid.
Yeah.

454
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,120
And so that's that's sort of
late December, yeah.

455
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:06,000
And I think they they will, if
they can't satisfy the

456
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,080
requirements of the Stock
Exchange, they'll be delisted in

457
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,240
March or April.
Yeah.

458
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,480
So there's, but we've, you know,
we've got Chinese New Year in

459
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,160
there, which is it's like
Christmas in Australia in terms

460
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,200
of when it is sensible to do or
to look at tabling A

461
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,520
transaction.
So we've got to work through all

462
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,520
of that timing and to work out
you know what, you know, the

463
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,960
team prices move since we made
our last bid, all of those sorts

464
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,400
of things to work out.
What is a sensible strategy do

465
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,360
you think to do?
Do you think those two, I mean

466
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,240
those two shareholders, if they
control like 60%, like do you

467
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,760
think there's a, a world where
there, there's a deal to be done

468
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,480
at?
A Yeah, I don't think that they

469
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,720
both agree.
OK, on yeah, What's happened

470
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,000
with the suspension, which gives
us a door to one of them to

471
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,200
potentially negotiate a deal?
Gotcha, gotcha.

472
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,160
That helps.
Not if he wants too much for it,

473
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,680
yeah.
Yeah, everything's got a price.

474
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,680
But like if, if a deal can be
done at a reasonable price,

475
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,240
surely that is that is the most
accretive thing you can do with

476
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,400
your cash balance is?
Yeah.

477
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:06,200
You agree?
Yeah.

478
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:08,080
That's why we, that's why we
made a bid, yeah.

479
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,320
Yeah.
And then yeah, with, with the,

480
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:18,480
the JV dynamics, yeah, like like
covered, we'll go, we'll go

481
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,280
across the the globe again.
Are there any other like tin

482
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,000
like projects that you've you've
looked over undeveloped or or

483
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,000
otherwise that that just aren't
on the the radar?

484
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:33,240
There's little stuff up in Nova
Scotia in, there's bits and

485
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:38,120
pieces in in some of the other
around was that extension of

486
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:40,480
that Congolese belt.
There's smaller deposits in

487
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,560
Africa, but again, they're all
fairly small.

488
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,040
Uganda's got a little bit this.
I think Bolivia's been a place

489
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,680
that's been just forgotten
because the government, you

490
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,760
know, being a socialist
government and having a certain

491
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,720
agenda scared a lot of people.
But there, you know, I think if

492
00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,720
rentals works, there's enormous,
enormous deposits of tin

493
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,520
tailings in Bolivia which could
which someone should have a look

494
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,560
at.
Peru is a a big producer of of

495
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,720
tin as well, yeah.
Well, it was the Peruvian guys

496
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,000
who had the assets in that, the
Peruvian family who had the

497
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,280
assets in Brazil who sold them
out recently.

498
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,120
So, yeah, but I think that's
quite closely held.

499
00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:21,360
I don't think there's any
interest to sell the Peruvian in

500
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:23,000
assets, yeah.
Yeah.

501
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,480
And those Bolivian ones are
within the state owned minor as

502
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,400
well.
So makes things a bit harder.

503
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,960
So capital allocation then?
This is this.

504
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,480
Is this.
Yeah, this is this.

505
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,280
Is where you started with us.
Yeah, totally it is.

506
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,040
Totally.
I didn't understand the company

507
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,680
as well as I do now and I was
maybe I was a bit critical, but

508
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,200
but I'm glad that things have
had like I'm glad that there was

509
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,280
like, you know, the announcement
of a buy back.

510
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,080
I'll bet you didn't have to buy
back much, but you know.

511
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,600
Yeah.
Well, we would have bought back

512
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,440
as much as you know, it was a
function of the share price.

513
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,720
We didn't set a limit on to how
much we could buy.

514
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,680
The share price started to move
so.

515
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,920
This is an interesting point
because you like most companies

516
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,640
don't do a buyback and say, oh,
we're going to buy it back when

517
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,920
the when the stock is is less
than or equal to a.

518
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,280
Certain price, most of the ones,
every buyback I've been involved

519
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,400
with in a public company, the
board has set a ceiling.

520
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,560
They've set a ceiling.
Yeah, but not publicly indicated

521
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,280
that ceiling.
Well, we didn't publicly

522
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,640
indicate it or.
You can infer it, but but you

523
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,400
know, yeah, there's I think I
think it's more uncommon than

524
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,960
not to have a just a like a flat
yeah, ceiling price.

525
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,160
You can have like some sort of
volume weighted allocation

526
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,920
within a band or a range.
Yeah, but anyway, that's.

527
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,960
But I appreciate the discipline.
Like I think that's the way

528
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,120
buybacks should be done, but.
You'll be looking at net like

529
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,680
look at the cash balance.
What if they have just plowed a

530
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,240
hell of a lot more into into the
stock at low, low, low prices?

531
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,240
You would have pushed it to that
level Quite quite.

532
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,040
You would have you would have
moved the price above your

533
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,000
ceiling.
You could do a tender offer at

534
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,760
a, you know what I mean?
Like if you just go, OK, we're

535
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,000
like we're going to do a tender
offer $0.10 above the current

536
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,280
price and we'll mop up everyone
that wants to sell.

537
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,440
We'll take it all.
Yeah, yeah.

538
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,760
The, the, my, my view is you use
the buyback to support a share

539
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,240
price when you have other
things.

540
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,720
So, but when you have a
macroeconomic change like an

541
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,600
increase in the team price, save
your buyback capacity for when

542
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,120
that's not there naturally
supporting the Tim price.

543
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,440
So that was kind of the
philosophy we followed.

544
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,520
You know, we, we, we, we have
publicly stated since I've been

545
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,880
on the board that as soon as we
have franking credits, we'll re

546
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,160
look at dividends.
Yeah.

547
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,840
So, so that that, that we've
said that at every AGM and we

548
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,840
will, we will if we needed to
recommence a buyback because

549
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,560
there wasn't support for the
share price, it's still there.

550
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,040
We would re enable it, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

551
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,400
That's the counter cyclical
approach as well in in contrast

552
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,400
to what we saw in in coal and a
couple of years ago as well.

553
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,360
Yeah.
And I can appreciate the value

554
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,560
of that cash.
It's not like, you know, we've

555
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,520
talked about all of the ways
that that can be deployed.

556
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,120
There's great optionality that
you know that exists not in just

557
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,600
the organic but also the
inorganic stuff and there'll be

558
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,440
a time and place to deploy that
cash.

559
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,840
Like you can't be opportunistic
on your JV partner if you don't

560
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,920
have the cash backing to support
that.

561
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,600
So I can I can understand.
Appreciate I'd like us to be

562
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,840
producing, you know, through
greater ownership of

563
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,960
Renaissance, through the
development of rentals, through

564
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,600
the development of one or both
of the first tin and Elementos,

565
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,320
you know, 20/20/2000 ton of tin
a year.

566
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,480
Yeah, doubling what we produce
now is just as Renaissance.

567
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,600
And that's so that's, that's,
you know, we want to be as big

568
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,640
as bigger than alpha mean.
Yeah.

569
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,080
So that's, that's our, you know,
our strategy.

570
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,400
And I think that will move given
as you mentioned, the complexity

571
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,680
of the team market, if you can
be producing sort of 20% of the

572
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,960
world's team concentrate, you
will get rated accordingly.

573
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,240
Yeah.
Yeah, let's talk about ratings

574
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:02,880
because because it was X Mount
Gibson like they're always like

575
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,120
they always traded just you know
like 1 1/2 times EBITDA, 2 times

576
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,680
EBITDA at most if they've been
trading it positively cash back.

577
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:12,920
Yeah, they're.
Two very different companies

578
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,320
now, as I said, you know, when
we when I came on the board, we

579
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,360
were eight cents.
We're now 87 cents.

580
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,240
Yeah.
So that's, that's, that's fixing

581
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,520
itself by being consistent, by
doing what you said you're going

582
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,600
to do and delivering on what?
A company's performance.

583
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,600
Poor old man Gibson, you know,
that's, that was a disaster,

584
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,600
that rockfall totally
unexpected.

585
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,840
You know that that section of
the wall was maybe 200 meters

586
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:45,400
long, 150 meters high, 3 meters
thick, had 18 meter rock bolts

587
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,960
in it all, you know, very
heavily bolted, meshed and shot

588
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:52,200
creded and it fell within 5
seconds.

589
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,360
Yeah.
So of course that's going to

590
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,520
knock the share price down
significantly.

591
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,400
Yeah.
And I think also, you know, if a

592
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,400
if a mine is on its last 18
months of production, you're

593
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,640
going to see an erosion of its
share price because people and

594
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,760
it did, it didn't really have a
strategy of what it was going to

595
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,480
do post, post coolant.
Yeah.

596
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,880
And now it has.
Now it has.

597
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,880
So that that's, yeah, now it
has.

598
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,640
But at that, that's the bit I'm
getting to is like, I think the

599
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,000
the market had for better off or
worse, there was a perception

600
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,840
that, that you know the these
companies that have a very large

601
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,800
shareholding from APAC and maybe
their real agenda is just to

602
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,400
accumulate stuff.
And maybe maybe there's most

603
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,800
shareholders in the market want
to see some distribution of

604
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,800
these big cash balances to them
and that generates the rewrite.

605
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,640
You guys have heard of Ferb?
Yeah.

606
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,560
How can a pack be accumulating
beyond what Ferb will allow it?

607
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,760
To be no, no, no, I mean like
within the vehicle of, of, of

608
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,400
not not accumulating more
shares, but, but, but like,

609
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,640
let's say those entities can,
can embark on their own capital

610
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,280
allocation, you know, decisions.
Some of those decisions might be

611
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,280
to pay a dividend which other
shareholders might want, but

612
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,080
maybe might not be what what I
pack once and I think that was

613
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,640
part of the markets you know
like discount that has been

614
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,280
applied to those.
Yeah, I think a question came up

615
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,760
in the Matt Gibson AGM the other
day about dividends.

616
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,360
And the the CEO reminded the
audience that it had paid out

617
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,880
something like 320 million of
dividends, you know, up until it

618
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,080
ran out of franking credits.
Yeah, I think, I don't know,

619
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,440
franking credits is a real
consideration when you're

620
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:41,320
thinking about paying dividends.
Yeah, APEC, APEC to me has

621
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:46,080
saved, saved tantamize us, save
Middlesex's us.

622
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,760
And it did a lot to help Matt
Gibson in terms of being a

623
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,320
supportive shareholder when no
one else was supporting them.

624
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,120
And that's, that's that I don't
think is being generally

625
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,640
understood, you know, providing
unsecured loans, helping with

626
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,680
restructure all of those sorts
of things, participating in

627
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,000
placements or participating in
rights issues to ensure there

628
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,840
was funding that's that that
saved a lot of those companies

629
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,159
from going under.
I'd love to RIP the curtain off

630
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:17,840
here.
Like what are the misconceptions

631
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:19,400
about AIPAC?
What do you think other people

632
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,920
think AIPAC is?
And like what is the reality of

633
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:23,679
the type of shareholder AIPAC is
well?

634
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,679
AIPAC when I, when I, when I was
more involved with the

635
00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:31,400
management of AIPAC, I
restructured it so that it had

636
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,679
three, three funds.
Each of the analysts then had

637
00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:41,360
their own portfolio for trading
and then there was a long term

638
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,840
strategic fund.
And so APAC has an energy fund,

639
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,280
it has a resources fund and then
it has its long term strategic

640
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,199
holdings.
They, they operate differently.

641
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,760
The trading funds are like any
other, like any other trading

642
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,760
company where they buy and sell
the equities.

643
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,040
You're up and down without
restrictions.

644
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,240
Another, another issue with the
Hong Kong exchange is that if

645
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:09,240
something is considered a
significant asset, you actually

646
00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:13,200
have to ask shareholder approval
to increase your ownership or

647
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,520
decrease your ownership of that
strategic asset.

648
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,360
So it's got all of these
restrictions on what it can do

649
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,200
with these companies.
But the strategic holding is

650
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:29,520
where APEC believes it has,
where this is a strategic asset

651
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:35,320
which needs a long term focus to
assist in its development or the

652
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:40,520
generation of the best outcome
or the best value for that

653
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,080
asset.
And that should that would

654
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:47,800
benefit all shareholders.
So you you think you like the

655
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,040
way you interpret it back is
like they're just a very aligned

656
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,320
shareholder that has the the
same intentions.

657
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:57,280
And A and a long term and has
because because it has these,

658
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,040
you know, companies like Mount
Gibson and Middlesex in its long

659
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,080
term portfolio, it's not having
to trade them in and out or it

660
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,440
doesn't short, it doesn't have
to trade them in and out like a

661
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,720
fund would do.
So it's they're looking at long

662
00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:17,480
term, you know, long term value
of that equity and that that

663
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:21,680
isn't understood by someone who
wants to play day trading with

664
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,040
the stock and hopes it goes up
and down within sort of on a

665
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,440
cyclic nature.
Yeah.

666
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,040
Can you share more about the the
strategic nature of the assets

667
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,640
that it looks at understanding?
That they're based on, they're

668
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,000
based on the percentage value of
them on the portfolio, because

669
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,880
that's a requirement of the Hong
Kong Stock Exchange that if it's

670
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,080
an asset which is above a
certain percentage of your,

671
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,960
your, you know, I don't remember
what the correct term is, but on

672
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,080
your balance sheet, if it's
above a certain percentage, you

673
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,320
can't trade it.
You have to ask shareholders to

674
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,720
buy and sell above a certain
percentage change.

675
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,760
So but they are assets that
where they believed that a long

676
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:06,360
term strategic view of that as
an asset was an important thing.

677
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:12,240
Tanami Tanami would have driven
most people nuts in terms of the

678
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:15,600
amount of time that's taken to
get that to, to get that project

679
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,480
moving.
But there's, you know, AIPAC

680
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,280
have been supportive of Tatami.
It it did, it did.

681
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,160
Again, it was before my time,
but it did, it had almost gone

682
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,560
broke as well.
And it was it was AIPAC which

683
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,600
provided the fund for it to stay
solvent.

684
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:36,240
Yeah, AIPAC irons north of 50
odd percent of.

685
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,920
I don't know.
I remember I said I'm not good

686
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,160
with exact numbers, but it's a
major shareholder.

687
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:42,880
It's a major shareholder, yeah.
Yeah.

688
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:51,880
And the Tanamoi interesting
history, but this asset, it was

689
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,000
a it was a joint venture with
Northern Star.

690
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,440
Northern Star had done had done
a deal and not all that long ago

691
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,360
to increase their, their, their,
their participation that JV by

692
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,160
an extra 10% and and that gave.
No, not exactly.

693
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,600
I actually negotiated the deal
with Northern Stars, the Reese

694
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,400
casting of the joint venture
agreement.

695
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:14,080
Yes, originally it was a earning
with the free carry where Tanami

696
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,160
had a free carried interest and
Northern Star had to spend up,

697
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,360
had to get the plant into
production of so many ounces by

698
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,280
a certain period of time to earn
into its ownership, right.

699
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,520
Kind of my challenge that
because they weren't actually

700
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,760
doing what they said and we then
there was a stalemate.

701
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,680
There was a stalemate.
So we renegotiated that joint

702
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:39,120
venture where the free carried
was dropped and it was a 5050

703
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,480
JV, both parties contributing
equally to the development of

704
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,240
the project because I personally
thought that was stumbling block

705
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,480
for the development of the
project and both parties

706
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,400
contributed a significant amount
of money.

707
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,080
We were spending sort of $20
million a year plus as a joint

708
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,520
venture on drilling in those
areas.

709
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,880
The reason it never really
progressed was Northern Star

710
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,840
wanted a much bigger project.
They wanted a 3 million on per

711
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,960
annum plus project.
We would have been happy with

712
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:16,080
with the tonne of my hat on of a
1.21 point 5 million tonne

713
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,400
project, refurbishing the plant,
getting a cash flow and then

714
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,240
looking at.
So they're both correct

715
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:25,400
philosophies, but different
philosophies and each philosophy

716
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,680
informs how you explore and what
you allocate drilling for.

717
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,600
If you're chasing, you know,
something that's two or three

718
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:38,320
times as big, you're doing
regional drilling to try to fill

719
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,640
out what could be your potential
or sources.

720
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,600
If you're trying to get an
existing, you know, 1.2 million

721
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,080
operation into place, you're
doing focus drilling to develop

722
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,360
a mine plan to get something
into operation.

723
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,560
So that was then neither is
right or wrong.

724
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,000
They were just different.
They were just different and

725
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,280
that's that's what and they and
both parties worked harmoniously

726
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:01,840
and, and everyone was in
support.

727
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,720
But because of that difference,
I don't think it fitted

728
00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:07,840
strategically what Northern Star
wanted to do, hence the

729
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,560
divestment.
And now MGX have real alignment.

730
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,520
You've spoken in the past with
with the MGX hat on about that

731
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,480
1.2 million ton per annum type
operation 100,000 ounces.

732
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,160
Plus.
There a an asset that we start

733
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,240
producing in in hopefully within
2 1/2 years or.

734
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:27,560
So.
Importantly, MGX has has the

735
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,040
understand there'll be some some
cash costs associated with

736
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,400
cooling now, but I imagine
there's there'll still be a lot

737
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,560
of cash left in MGX.
Yeah, and cooling's not as bad

738
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,640
as we first thought.
You know, we've got we could

739
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,000
significant low grade stockpiles
on the surface.

740
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,880
So we now believe we can and
they're, you know, they're,

741
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,760
they're 4245% and also they're
not crap.

742
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,120
But we look, we think we can
sell those people will blend

743
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,000
that.
So that'll that's a that's a bit

744
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,920
more cash than we thought.
We are we we in in discussions

745
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,040
with a couple of different
groups as to take over the

746
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:10,520
island as an asset for, you
know, for servicing, you know,

747
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,040
infrastructure or tourism.
It's very close to the Timor Sea

748
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,680
oil platforms.
So to make a very good base for

749
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,040
much in it, you know, and if
you're in a helicopter and you

750
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:24,640
want to rescue someone from a
rig, it's maybe an hour earlier

751
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,840
than it is from Broome or Derby
to get there.

752
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,360
So it's got, it's got and they
and they, and it's also a

753
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,560
strategic asset for the defense.
So we, we, we don't believe

754
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,760
we're going to have the full
rehab cost because we believe

755
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:43,200
we'll be able to repurpose the
island and sell it for, for a

756
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,760
future use.
Gotcha, Gotcha.

757
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:51,240
That'd be positive for Matt
Gibson equity, which which will

758
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:53,680
be then focused on the
development of kind of my gold

759
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,240
project in conjunction with 10
of my gold, both 10 of my gold

760
00:41:57,240 --> 00:42:01,280
and and and Matt Gibson.
I'm sure it makes sense for

761
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:02,800
those two entities to come
together, but there are

762
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,760
complications with the the the
shared shareholding and.

763
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:12,240
To act to merge with it's
actually harder with a common

764
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:15,960
shareholder than it is the, you
know, that related parties issue

765
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,200
means it's it's it's almost too
odd.

766
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,280
So there's no reason that you
couldn't look at an asset level

767
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,840
deal which had different
percentages adjust from 5050.

768
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,840
But I think in this gold market,
Tanamar are pretty confident

769
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:36,120
that they can raise money to
maintain their 50% ownership of

770
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,080
the project.
Yeah.

771
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:40,640
And there's a Phoenix
shareholding as well, 10%

772
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,440
ownership of Phoenix.
Which came about by the by a

773
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,400
sale to yes to to Phoenix, Yeah.
And, and, and Matt, Matt Gibson

774
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,720
not only has it's, it's, you
know, that was some of the

775
00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:52,680
questions that came up at the
AGM yesterday.

776
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,200
You know, is it, you know, why,
what is the sudden jump?

777
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,280
Is this just an opportunistic
thing?

778
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,640
Is it an AIPAC conspiracy thing?
Why have you suddenly got into

779
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,000
this?
But Matt Gibson have, you know,

780
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:10,120
they've been looking at, you
know, possible alternatives

781
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,200
knowing that the island was
going to run out for years and

782
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,640
they've got other equity stakes
in in a little in copper plays

783
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,760
in various places.
Substantive shareholding,

784
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,960
Marinin.
Yeah, it's an substantial share

785
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,520
shareholding, yeah.
Victory North.

786
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:26,600
Yeah.
So there's there's there's a

787
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,280
whole basket.
There's a whole basket of

788
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,000
things.
And the idea there was that if

789
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,560
you get it's not it's similar to
what?

790
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:38,000
What metals X is done was taking
a strategic shareholding in

791
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,720
first tier, no elementos on a
smaller scale, but in but a

792
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:46,520
similar idea.
So it's looking not just at the,

793
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,400
the, you know, the gold
opportunity, but a number of

794
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,520
copper and base metal
opportunities, you know, in that

795
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,440
sort of Queensland central QLD
regional area.

796
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,760
And, and, you know, again,
they're looking at projects,

797
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:05,200
which would be a sensible jump
given their sort of bulk

798
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,960
commodity mining operation.
But there isn't many of them

799
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,680
around.
The Phoenix one really came on

800
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,440
the back of the, the sale of
that asset.

801
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,680
And Phoenix is a bloody good
operation, Really clever, the

802
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:23,640
way that they've married that IP
of infrastructure, IP of

803
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,840
transport and infrastructure
into an iron ore mine to

804
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,720
actually get a lower transport
cost, which has helped them

805
00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:34,120
develop these isolated assets
where no one else could have

806
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,120
done it before.
Their wholeage costs are

807
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,640
gobsmackingly low.
And it's, it's, it's, it's

808
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,360
state-of-the-art.
If you ever get a chance to talk

809
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:47,520
to them, you know, the, the, the
changeover, the preventative

810
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,600
maintenance, the, the satellite
monitoring, the level of

811
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,800
automation or the on the trucks
to make sure that you don't have

812
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,720
planned breakdowns.
It's all really clever stuff

813
00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:00,160
which has allowed them to do
that.

814
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,840
So they're really, really sharp,
sharp operation.

815
00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:06,160
It's mighty impressive what
they've done and, and the, the

816
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:09,080
cost at which they can operate.
I want to touch on on Tanamar

817
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,240
Gold just just once more,
because when people run the

818
00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:14,640
numbers similar to Meadows X,
they, they see the cash, they

819
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:16,720
see what the market cap of the
company is.

820
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:19,520
And you've done the deal now
with, with Tanamar.

821
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,080
That's clearly a key piece of
it.

822
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,960
What do you feel is kind of
misunderstood about the the

823
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,320
value in in the gold asset?
I think joint ventures are

824
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,000
typically undervalued and there
was just fatigue.

825
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,880
There was investor fatigue with
Tanami because it just, it's

826
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,560
been sitting there undeveloped
for so bloody long.

827
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,360
People got bored or frustrated
with it.

828
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,400
You know, there's been a couple
of long-suffering shareholders

829
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,840
there who sort of seen what
we're trying to do.

830
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,520
But I think now there is a real
opportunity to accelerate its

831
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,640
developments.
It's not, it's not complicated.

832
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,760
It's actually the plan that
Tanami took to Northern Star is

833
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:55,960
we put in an exploration
decline.

834
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,600
That'll that'll cost like. 7070
with the because you're also

835
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,080
going to put all the surface
infrastructure on to support it

836
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:07,280
yeah it's not a it's not a it's
a cost which isn't lost because

837
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:12,080
one it opens up 6 or 7 levels
that you could kick stop from

838
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,640
yeah and you're going to need a
decline anyway once you start

839
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,760
mining look at refurbishing the
existing process plant or or

840
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,760
building as lower cost new plant
as you can it's.

841
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,040
A pretty, pretty old plant.
It's a pretty old plant.

842
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:27,200
Yeah, maybe.
Build a new one.

843
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:29,560
Yeah.
No, but but the, the, the other,

844
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,440
the other value there is the
permitting.

845
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:32,800
Yeah, yeah.
Because you've got the

846
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,680
permitting for the tails, you've
got the permitting for the

847
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:36,880
process plant, you've got the
permitting for the runway and

848
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,680
all of that to get all that
again now.

849
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,320
Yeah, is, is to do that and we,
we reckoned you could get it

850
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:49,720
into operation or, but you know,
between 200 and 250 million,

851
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,760
you'd still have to spend
another 200 in sort of

852
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,720
sustaining capital to look at
doing the non essential post

853
00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:01,080
production things like upgrading
the camp and all of the

854
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,480
upgrading the airstrip and some
of the other bits and pieces.

855
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,760
And then you're, you know you're
1.21 point 5 million tonne per

856
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:14,520
annum, you know 3 to 4G a tonne
producer are.

857
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,240
There refractory concerns.
With no there is a significant

858
00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:21,160
amount of refractory or but
that's being excluded from the

859
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,000
modelling of the process plants.
It's just a free milling stuff

860
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,440
to start with, you'd put in a
pox plant later, you'd leave

861
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,880
space to put in a pox plant.
Then you can bring in all of

862
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,480
that gyms is the exciting one.
Just just have a look at the

863
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,720
drilling was at the last
drilling results from gyms.

864
00:47:35,720 --> 00:47:38,840
That's that's, that's, that's,
that's going to be good and.

865
00:47:39,720 --> 00:47:42,960
That's.
And it would be open pit.

866
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:48,600
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Interesting to the to the stakes

867
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,760
that Mount Gibson has in in
some, you know, junior miners or

868
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,560
developers.
So there's there seems to be a

869
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:57,480
clear interest in some of that
kind of Queensland.

870
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:03,400
Yeah area with with AIC mines
Eloise very proximate to to

871
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:05,360
Marion and then then true, true
North.

872
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:09,120
But those are the three that I I
know that I know that and that

873
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:10,280
gives another has or.
Has had yeah.

874
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,720
And, and, and we don't really
have a clear favorite.

875
00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:16,920
It's just we identified the the
guys identified that there was

876
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:22,120
room to have a consolidation in
that area where there's a number

877
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:27,680
of sub optimum sized base metal
projects, which if someone could

878
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:32,120
get a get their foot on a number
of them and pull them together

879
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:36,280
into perhaps a central
processing plant, you you'd have

880
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:40,360
a different story.
So that's kind of been the logic

881
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,800
behind that and it's now working
through which is the best

882
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,600
starting point to able to make
that happen.

883
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,880
If I, if I ask a bigger picture
question in that neck of the

884
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,520
woods, obviously Glencore has
been in the news a lot, Mount

885
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,880
Isa and everything.
What, what sort of implication

886
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:56,760
does that have and has that
changed how you think about

887
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,760
those assets there it?
Shows if you cry enough, the

888
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:03,480
government will give you money.
Glencore's not and this is

889
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,320
interesting.
This is something from that I

890
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,200
picked up in, in the, the
Shanghai Metal Exchange thing

891
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,400
with the, all of the smelters in
China, people who just have a

892
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,320
smelter struggle.
So if you're not integrated

893
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,560
upstream and downstream from the
smelter, there's not a lot of

894
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,360
money left in smelting.
So I'm not surprised, you know,

895
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,440
when Mount Isa was a, a booming,
you know, operation with its own

896
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,120
minds and all of its fade, the
smelter was probably making a

897
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,800
fair bit of money.
Now it would be struggling.

898
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:33,720
To be fair, that was just a joke
before.

899
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,280
Now it would be smelting because
it's really hard to run a

900
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,840
smelter if you're not upstream
and downstream integrated.

901
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,800
You hold that view across all
all medals in this day and age

902
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:43,720
base.
Medals.

903
00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:45,680
If you just have a smelter, it's
hard.

904
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,320
Yeah, yeah.
There's, there's such value in

905
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,600
there in the, you know, in the,
in the offtake.

906
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,960
Then if you're a producer.
So how do you think about about

907
00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:59,800
Metals X's off taked supply as
well?

908
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,640
We, we, we re tender our off
take every year.

909
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:07,960
Yeah, yeah.
And we look at the lowest, we

910
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,120
look at the best commercial
outcome for Middlesex.

911
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,800
When we do that tendering, we
don't like to have just one like

912
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,160
what happened with COVID when
the Malaysians called force

913
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,120
majeure.
It's good to have more than one

914
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,080
smelter, but we tender that
every year.

915
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:24,760
So right now it's Malaysia and
China.

916
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,120
It was in years gone by also to
Thailand, but that but that

917
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:29,280
dropped off recently.
Yep.

918
00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:31,040
What was the the rationale
behind that?

919
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,960
Again, just.
Commercial terms, yeah, Yeah.

920
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:40,040
And certainly all the way back
to Metals X again, let's talk

921
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,480
about rentals because yeah, this
is, this is another potential

922
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:48,360
use of of cash favorite CapEx,
technological uncertainty or do

923
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,240
you think?
It's pretty sure it's, it's,

924
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:55,800
it's hydraulic mining that's
just pumping mud, fine regrind

925
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,760
and differential float, making a
copper float and a tin float.

926
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,160
It was more complex when the
pyrometallurgical part was going

927
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,360
to be in Tassie as well.
But we'll just make a, you know,

928
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:11,040
a commercial grade copper con
and we'll make a tin con of

929
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,440
between 13 and 15%.
Yeah, it's to get good

930
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,040
payability on.
Yeah, because.

931
00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:21,520
It's the MPV of the project.
Didn't change that much when we

932
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,440
took the pyrometallurgical part
out because that was fairly

933
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,080
expensive.
Oh, a lot of the upfront

934
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:27,680
capital.
Yeah.

935
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,560
But also, you know, we aren't in
the Takwine, but we're on the

936
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:32,640
edge of it.
Yeah.

937
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,720
And so if you've got a buddy,
big stack, regardless of whether

938
00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:39,920
you've got good gas treatment or
not, it's visible from that main

939
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:44,160
road in and out of the Takwine.
It's it's not going to be

940
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,320
popular.
We would have had to bring in

941
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:52,840
coal because coal is a reagent
coke and coal is a reagent in

942
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:58,240
the box fumes to be burning coal
in the sort of clean Tasmania

943
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,000
branded area on the edge of the
tacroine, which probably not

944
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,040
economic.
Yeah, not environmentally or

945
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:10,040
from a stakeholder thing, a good
idea.

946
00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:13,280
And there aren't a lot of
pyrometallurgical people.

947
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,840
It's hard enough to get float
plant operators in Tasmania to

948
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,520
get power metallurgical people
to run a Box FUMA.

949
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,480
There's I don't think there's
any other box fumes in Australia

950
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,880
would be difficult.
So they're the reasons we

951
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:31,920
decided to let Unentin build the
Box FUMA either in Thailand or

952
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,760
to reconfigure one of their ones
in China and split the project

953
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,440
in two.
I'd love to hear what the the

954
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,400
benefits of that partnership
with with Yunnan more broadly in

955
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,280
the joint venture and if you're,
if you're willing to, to share

956
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,200
any of that, the downsides of
that structure.

957
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,760
I don't know if there's, as I
said, it's a joint venture with

958
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,080
the joint venture Yunnan Tin's
one of the largest tin and base

959
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,520
metal producing companies in the
world.

960
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,320
So we've got access to all of
their technical knowledge.

961
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,320
You know, they're representative
on the JV committee's, got a

962
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,680
PhD.
They, they, they're good,

963
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:12,360
collaborative, intelligent guys.
So having access to all of that

964
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:20,120
is a real, is a real benefit.
You know, we've, they will, they

965
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,280
are keen on rentals, which is
great.

966
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,360
They, you know, they need
concentrate the same way all of

967
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,160
the other smelters in China need
concentrate because the, the

968
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:34,960
grade in their minds is falling.
So there's no, there's no issues

969
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,600
with that.
If there are funding issues

970
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:42,280
where perhaps one of that joint
venture didn't want to fund its

971
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,840
share of rent house, then there
could be some complexities.

972
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,760
But there are, there is a
provision in the joint venture

973
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,720
agreement which lets one party
sole source the development of a

974
00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:56,880
new capital project.
Yeah, and you of course, you

975
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,640
have to pay something for the
use of the joint venture asset,

976
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,760
which is the tailings.
But that's not, that's not,

977
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,720
that's just a commercial and
that smelt a royalty type thing

978
00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:12,880
that you have to negotiate.
So they if you took the scenario

979
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,920
that Middlesex sole source the
development of rentals, the

980
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:22,880
existing joint venture agreement
allows that to happen and and we

981
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:27,680
would just have to agree and
that smelt a royalty associated

982
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,800
with the tin and the copper that
was in the tailings that we were

983
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,480
processing in that sole finance
project.

984
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:39,520
Gotcha.
Yeah, yeah, with, with Stella

985
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,640
one more time.
So Stella, they've, they've

986
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,960
struck it, you know?
They've looked at the old

987
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:48,080
nickel.
They've looked at the Avery

988
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:50,600
nickel plant, which which is a
plant in need of a good ore

989
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:55,320
body.
Are you worried that that that

990
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:57,920
that might find an alternative
path to market that's not not?

991
00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:00,800
In I'm not worried if they if
they do that, that's fine.

992
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's probably not the most

993
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,640
sense.
If it was me, I'd just put all

994
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,120
sortters in crush and grind and
sort and ship a beneficiated

995
00:55:10,120 --> 00:55:13,840
product to Renison.
Much cheaper way of doing it

996
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:15,000
than all of that.
Yeah.

997
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:17,760
The all sorting component is
something they've looked at,

998
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,440
although obviously incorporated
as well.

999
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,600
Yeah, yeah, we got, we got
sorters at Renison and they're

1000
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,520
working well, yeah.
Can we talk about the impact

1001
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,640
that sorters are like the
application of sorters too?

1002
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,560
They're not a magic bullet.
Everyone who just published puts

1003
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,920
out an ASX release saying that
sorters have beneficiated their

1004
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:37,080
all.
Of course they're going to

1005
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,680
beneficiate their all, but it
still means you've got to have a

1006
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:44,880
a project and an economic reason
to actually be looking at

1007
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,520
sorters in the 1st place.
Yeah, the technology works.

1008
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,840
They just change the sensors and
it works on most store types.

1009
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,400
For most commodities, yeah.
I've, I've, I've heard stories

1010
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,920
about some of these sensors now
and like the yeah, the, yeah,

1011
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:00,760
the tech sounds like it's come a
long way, right?

1012
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:06,800
Like the, the the the the
ability to to to detect and also

1013
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,600
then like rapidly blow away.
You know where the technology

1014
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:12,320
came from.
Was it the Argo?

1015
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,880
No.
No, no, no, that it started it

1016
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,480
would no, it was treating
municipal waste.

1017
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,400
So the municipal waste, the
original trauma Ron stuff was

1018
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,040
municipal waste sorting where
they had belts, where people,

1019
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:28,240
the dump trucks that emptied in
and it had sought out the metal

1020
00:56:28,240 --> 00:56:29,920
and the cardboard and all of
that.

1021
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,320
So it's that's that's improved.
That was the genesis of it, and

1022
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:35,320
then it.
In what era?

1023
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:39,160
Oh, I.
Don't know, 30 years ago, 20

1024
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:43,000
years ago, yeah, OK, yeah, but
but now it's the but that's the

1025
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,640
same principle.
You just need the correct sensor

1026
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:51,960
to differentiate the different
streams and the software to

1027
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,040
understand what you're doing.
There's a bit of work in making

1028
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,360
sure you crush it to the right
size and to screen it and to

1029
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:00,600
have what washed if it's a
certain thing.

1030
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:05,280
But there's enough variation in
sensing technology now, I think,

1031
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,320
to sort accurately most types of
all.

1032
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:15,040
But you do lose stuff.
So when you sort gold, you may

1033
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:20,800
upgrade what you're feeding, but
you do lose ounces, you know.

1034
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,840
So yeah, we've looked at it for
the operations in in Scandinavia

1035
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,720
and we're going to, we're going
to put them in again now because

1036
00:57:27,720 --> 00:57:30,760
we're capped in terms of the
throughput of our flotation

1037
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:34,360
plant, their permits capped at a
certain number of tons per year.

1038
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,320
So the only way we can increase
gold production is to lift the

1039
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,520
feed grade.
But we didn't put them in

1040
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:44,440
previously because we would lose
gold through the sorting.

1041
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,280
You lose a percentage of the
gold.

1042
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,880
If you could do a, you know, you
can't do heap bleach anymore,

1043
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,680
but if you could actually feed
your reject stream to a gold,

1044
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:54,920
heap bleach would be OK.
It's just you can't do that.

1045
00:57:54,920 --> 00:58:00,520
Anymore, Yeah, Renaissance,
Renaissance as we look at that

1046
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:05,280
asset today like it's been
producing a while the plan.

1047
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,080
Next, soon, we'll publish a new
life of Mind.

1048
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,480
Yeah, and it's no shorter than
our previous one.

1049
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:13,280
Previous one was, was it 10
years?

1050
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:16,280
Yeah, so. 10 years at yeah,
mostly 10,000 tons per annum.

1051
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:17,720
Yeah, yeah.
What are the?

1052
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,160
What are the constraints to to
output?

1053
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:22,600
The float, The existing float
plant.

1054
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:24,760
The float plant, Yeah.
And what's what are the mining

1055
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:25,520
constraints?
Oh.

1056
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:29,960
Not you could expand more fronts
and you could mine more tons

1057
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,960
because we've got a hoist and a
decline when we bring on ring

1058
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,960
rows.
Ring rows is at a much higher

1059
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:40,320
elevation so that that if that
whole body ends up being as big

1060
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:44,160
as it might be, that would that
could bring you know that you,

1061
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,520
you may look at another portal.
At the moment we didn't want to

1062
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:53,240
do that because we don't want
additional surface disturbance

1063
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,800
disturbances.
So we don't have any additional

1064
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:59,120
permitting issues.
So at the moment we'll just cut

1065
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,560
a drive across and do it from
underground.

1066
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,720
But the mining has never been
the constraint the ventilate.

1067
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,920
But when we we put in a fair bit
of money to upgrade the

1068
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:12,320
ventilation, that was because
it's a very hot mine, the

1069
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:16,440
groundwater comes out at 6070°C,
so it's an uncomfortable place

1070
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,440
for people to work.
So the ventilation wasn't for

1071
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:23,480
fumes or air quality, it was
just to bring to drop the

1072
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,600
working environment down so it
was more comfortable or safer

1073
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:30,000
for people to work.
Gotcha, gotcha.

1074
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,840
I I'm just you say, I'm just
trying to wrap around in my head

1075
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,200
where the like where, where the
capital allocation decisions

1076
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,320
might be be best at at renison
itself.

1077
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,880
Is it, is it, is it ring rose?
Is it?

1078
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:44,440
Is it?
Well, Ring Rose will happen

1079
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,160
anyway.
We've bought Ring Rose into the

1080
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,200
life of mine plan now with with
what we know of it.

1081
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,560
There is a hybrid rentals that
we're doing a side study on

1082
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:58,080
where instead of rebuilding the
existing float plant, we

1083
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:03,120
actually look at a different
communication circuit and feed

1084
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,960
everything.
Through an, through a slightly

1085
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:10,920
different flow sheet for
rentals, Yeah, Tin plants, if

1086
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,920
you've ever visited one, they
have lots of separate little

1087
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:19,120
unit operations each recovering
5% or 2% or half a percent of

1088
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:22,600
the tin.
You could clean that up with a

1089
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,160
completely different design
plant from the very beginning.

1090
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:29,760
So we may look at it, we're
doing a sort of concept study

1091
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:33,560
now that if we change the the
communication circuit and then

1092
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:38,920
change the the float circuits
and we could probably eliminate

1093
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,840
20 or 30% of the smaller unit
operations that we have in the

1094
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:46,960
existing flow chart, which would
debottleneck the existing

1095
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:51,160
process plant and give us some
more throughput there as well.

1096
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,160
Yeah.
What what is the sort of cost of

1097
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:57,880
upgrading that float plan if you
have to get pinned to A to a

1098
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,520
number on that?
Through upgrading the existing

1099
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,560
float plant?
Yeah, in the life of mine plan

1100
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,160
we've got, I can't remember
which year it is, but we got 60

1101
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,320
million in to upgrade the
existing float plant.

1102
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,640
Yeah, Russia and the the, the.
Cells are, all the cells are

1103
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:14,360
very old, you know, we've, we've
kept them going with patches and

1104
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:18,680
really welded on bits of stuff
and but they are very old, yeah.

1105
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:23,040
The the grade variability over
over that life of life of mine

1106
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,200
you kind of expect similar to
what it's been historically or.

1107
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:29,880
Well, we've got for the next, I
don't know, six years.

1108
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,480
We've got fairly high grade,
yeah stuff, yeah.

1109
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,040
And we haven't, we haven't
really done enough drilling in

1110
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,080
the Ring Rose area, which is
even higher grades than the high

1111
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:41,120
grade stuff we've got out of the
existing one.

1112
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,000
And the current current 10
prices, how much cash are you

1113
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,200
adding a month?
Oh, I don't look at it on a

1114
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:49,240
monthly basis.
Have a look at it quarterly.

1115
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:53,160
But it's it's, yeah, it's a lot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 30 to 50.

1116
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:56,280
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, interesting.

1117
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:58,280
Sounds like costs will stay.
Like yeah.

1118
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:00,960
Yeah, you've still got base CPI
inflation.

1119
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,840
Wages go up by three percent, 4%
each year.

1120
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:08,240
Yeah, Powers has been cheap in
Tassie historically.

1121
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:12,080
Yeah, I think.
Cheap green power?

1122
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:14,080
Are you going to get a green
premium anytime soon?

1123
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,560
I that was actually one of my
questions that I tabled at the

1124
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:25,040
team conference.
Should we be worried Why that

1125
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:26,800
whole issue?
I'm just being politically

1126
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:31,120
correct now that whole that
whole issue about a green

1127
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:34,720
premium for metals, when you
look at what people were talking

1128
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,320
about green premiums for nickel
and Indonesia just came on

1129
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,120
making this relatively dirty
nickel.

1130
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:41,200
And you talk to the people and
they say, well, we have to buy

1131
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:44,560
it for them because it's so much
cheaper at the ITA.

1132
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:48,480
I've also at the teen conference
in the the UK are also raised

1133
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:51,800
the thing that there's just that
we just don't see a premium for

1134
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:54,400
green teen.
So I'm right in thinking Ora

1135
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:58,680
Peso gets 1000 bucks on or that
they they.

1136
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,120
It's a different smell.
That's a different premium.

1137
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,320
That's that's a premium.
You know, with tin, they don't

1138
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,880
typically do swaps because there
isn't a lot of tin production in

1139
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,520
there that the you get a premium
because you're not having to pay

1140
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,200
the freight costs of bringing
the process tin from another

1141
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:19,000
location to that location.
So that smell to premium is what

1142
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,760
you get because you're producing
locally and you have a much

1143
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:23,880
lower freight cost.
It's not a green premium.

1144
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:28,760
Yeah, yeah.
It's I sometimes laugh just

1145
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,560
thinking of the the the the
universe of listed tin like

1146
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:36,760
stocks because you don't get to
count very much to to go

1147
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:38,680
through.
There's really two options for

1148
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:42,160
for investors to to choose
because people aren't buying and

1149
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:43,400
it.
Depends whether you prefer

1150
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:48,040
Tasmania or the Congo.
Yeah, exactly.

1151
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:50,600
And and.
Well, if we simplify the

1152
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:52,200
argument.
Yeah, yeah.

1153
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:55,760
But there are the development
companies now to be fair, you

1154
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:59,680
know the the Stellars and the
Elementos and the 1st 10 and

1155
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:03,160
some of the other guys, they
will get into production in the

1156
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:06,160
sort of, you know, 2 to 8 year
on frame.

1157
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:07,600
Then none of them are really
big.

1158
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:11,360
Cornish.
They honest, to be honest I'm a

1159
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:13,800
bit behind on Cornish.
I've actually they sent me as

1160
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,360
packed over read recently but I
just haven't had a chance to

1161
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:18,640
have a look at it.
That's that's the only one that

1162
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,840
probably has the the volume of
tons that is yeah, like

1163
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:23,280
meaningful.
Yeah, yeah.

1164
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:29,000
But yeah, your your, your, your
perspectives on the whole

1165
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,200
universe are really, really,
really valuable.

1166
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:35,720
The it's a Rome.
Rome resources is a tin project

1167
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:36,680
as well.
Yeah.

1168
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:40,400
Is that any good?
We haven't bought any.

1169
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:46,680
I'll take a look at it.
There is a whole, there is a

1170
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:50,480
whole central QLD tin belt which
there's three or four people

1171
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,720
sort of marketing projects at
the moment.

1172
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:57,240
And then around the the area
that there's another one in

1173
01:04:57,240 --> 01:04:59,600
central NSW at the back of
Orange.

1174
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:03,040
What's that one called?
That was first team.

1175
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:07,200
No, no, that's this is it's not
it's it's, it's very similar all

1176
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:08,440
body.
To Sky Sky Metals.

1177
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:11,560
Sky Metals, Yeah, that's
probably it's, it's not as far

1178
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:17,200
along the the pathway as the,
the, the first team guys are,

1179
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:20,040
but similar sort of project and
should work with a similar sort

1180
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:21,560
of flow sheet.
I went out and had a look at it.

1181
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:23,040
They're doing all the right
things.

1182
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,000
It's just a little bit early in
the development cycle for us to

1183
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:26,880
get involved.
Yeah.

1184
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:27,840
Yeah.
That makes sense.

1185
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:32,000
That, that makes a lot of sense.
Brett, is there anything we

1186
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,280
haven't talked about today that,
you know, you think we should

1187
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:36,640
have gone into detail?
How do I get a T-shirt?

1188
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:40,800
We've got actually might have
something.

1189
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:43,080
We can make that happen.
Yeah, yeah, OK.

1190
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:45,640
It's not great.
Great chatting with you, you

1191
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:49,840
know, I hope that has helped a
bit understanding team.

1192
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,720
I hope it's helped a bit
understanding sort of AIPAC and

1193
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:56,280
and their strategy as well and.
Yeah, I think they're not fun.

1194
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,000
They're not the boogeyman is
like a take away.

1195
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:00,280
Like, you know, and I've had
that perception in the past, but

1196
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:02,400
you know, I can, I can see the
strategy.

1197
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:04,080
I can see how they're aligned
with other shareholders.

1198
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:06,840
I can see that.
Yeah, like maybe, maybe, maybe

1199
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:09,400
dividends aren't always what you
should expect, but that's OK

1200
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,360
because there's there's a
thoughtful long term growth

1201
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,000
agenda that might actually be
benefit from the optionality of.

1202
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:15,680
Pay dividends.
Yeah, yeah.

1203
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:18,360
I mean the head code they paid
I.

1204
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:20,120
Don't buy shares, you know, I, I
think.

1205
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:24,040
For people participating in the
ASX in the resources space, it's

1206
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:26,240
been a super helpful
conversation to to help fill out

1207
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:30,120
players in the market, miners in
the market that are they've been

1208
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:31,520
kind of ever present.
They've been there for, for

1209
01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:33,000
quite some time.
So I appreciate you making the

1210
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:34,160
time for us, Brett.
Cheers guys.

1211
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:35,440
Thanks a lot for the
opportunity.

1212
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:37,320
Thank you very much.
Much appreciated.

1213
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,000
We've got some big partners that
we could not do this without.

1214
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,040
Sure do mate.
Sandvik Ground support the

1215
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:43,520
legends.
Check them out details in the

1216
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:45,840
show notes.
Focus the platform by market

1217
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:47,680
tech.
Check out the Wicked platform

1218
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:50,960
that they have put together.
A local Aussie team doing God's

1219
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,920
work.
Mate, it is a great place to to

1220
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:56,360
trade, to to dissect, to
analyse.

1221
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,960
It is yeah, it's a it's a
institutional platform to retail

1222
01:06:59,960 --> 01:07:00,680
price.
Thank you.

1223
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:03,720
It sure is, and there's a free
trial in the show notes as well.

1224
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:06,400
And last but not least,
Intralinks.

1225
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:08,360
Check out those legends as well.
Goodaroo mate.

1226
01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:11,640
Udaroo.
Now remember, I'm an idiot.

1227
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,360
JD is an idiot.
If you thought any of this was

1228
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:16,880
anything other than
entertainment, you're an idiot

1229
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:18,440
and you need to read out a
disclaimer.