Mick McMullen on Deals, Discipline and Activism

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An activist's wet dream is when
the incumbents just say no,

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right?
If I turn up in your boardroom

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fronting for an activist, it's
usually not a great day for the

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board because we probably know
more about your company than you

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do.
Maybe it's a good place to

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start.
JD is yeah, maybe some some

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interesting like reflections on
on the the deal making history

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of of particularly Mac, but we
can even go further back in time

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as well.
Making, you know, delighted you

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are you are joining us for for
our our episode today.

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Lots of experience that you've
had, lots of different

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commodities, lots of parts of
the world, lots of types of

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people, lots of different
operations, lots of deals, lots

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of different, yeah, lots of
deals, lots of different themes,

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some recurring themes.
And yeah, when I, when I, you

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know, in the time we've been
doing the podcast, the, the,

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the, the company that we've
associated with you

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predominantly has of course been
Metals Acquisition Corp, but or,

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or later called Mac copper, But
that wasn't, that's kind of a

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small blip in your, in, in your
history.

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But I do want to start there
because I reckon the most common

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question you would have been
asked in your time at Metals

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Acquisition Corp is what are you
going to buy?

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And in the end, you didn't buy
anything.

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You you got bought so we.
We we were acquired.

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So why?
So why'd you do that?

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Cool.
Look, I think so this is my 8th

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exit that I've done so far and
one of the reasons that I always

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get money out of like big
institutional shareholders,

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right?
Like your black rocks, your

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Wellingtons, your sailing
stones, is that we're all about

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shareholder value.
So, so, and I've done a lot of

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activist investing, which again
is all about share all the value

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and we go through some of my
other transactions.

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So, so we set the business up.
You know, when I was, I'd been

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living in North America, moved
back to Perth during COVID

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thinking, oh, well, I'll be
there for three or four months,

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personal COVID quite well, I'll
be there for a few months and

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I'll come back little knowing
I'd get stuck there for two

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years, right?
And we couldn't leave.

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So we set the business up.
It was a SPAC, as you guys well

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know, because you could do that
remotely and we bought the

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business with a view to growing
to be a mid tier miner, right?

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Like something like a sand fiery
type sort sort of business.

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Multiple assets of scale.
Mac is the smallest thing I've

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run in a decade by a fair
margin.

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And we did have a fairly good
crack at buying a couple of

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other assets that would have
given us that scale.

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Multiple assets, 100,125
thousand tons a year, copper

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production or copper equivalent.
And for whatever reason, we just

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couldn't quite get there.
And so, you know, and I'm sure

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you guys have got the graph
somewhere, but you know, if you

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graph our share price up versus
the US dollar copper price, LME

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copper price, we traded
inversely to the copper price

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for the previous 12 months
before I sold it.

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So if you sort of got a thematic
that copper is going up and

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you're trading inversely to the
copper price, you know, that's

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not a great thematic, right.
So ultimately we, we, we

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couldn't grow.
I've run a few single asset

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companies before where you
inevitably get to a point in

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that single asset companies life
where you've, you've chopped all

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the wood, you fix the business,
you've, you've got as much out

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of it as you can, or you've got
a pathway to, to get where

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you're going to go.
And if you're not buying, then

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you're selling, right?
Like it's, it's difficult as a

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single asset company, no matter
how great that asset is, you

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know, 4% head grade sitting out
in Coburg, Best place actually

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in the world to operate, I
reckon.

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Maybe I'm a bit biased, but if
you can't get shareholder value

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and you can't grow the business,
then you need to consider other

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alternatives, right?
And, and at the same time, as

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you know, when we were looking
at the asset in Portugal, Nevis

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Corvo that we, that we bid hard
on.

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And I honestly, I thought we
had, and you sort of put

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yourself into play a bit.
You know, when you, when the

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market knows like it's all
confidential, but everyone

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right, knew you could read it in
the IFR that we were in that

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process that then spurs other
people to come in and knock on

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your door.
And because we're, our primary

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listing was the US, we weren't
Delaware domiciled, but still

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being US listed, you don't
really have the option as a

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board member to just tell people
to bugger off when they, if

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they're a credible bidder,
cashed up the ability to

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execute, understand the kind of
mining you're in.

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You actually have a director's
duty to engage with them and see

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whether you can get a, a better
result than going your own path.

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And, and ultimately that's what
happened, right?

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Yeah, that, that's where we
ended.

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If we could have grown the
business to have multiple

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assets, you know, to get a
better EBITDA multiple, that

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absolutely was the way we would
have gone.

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So, but again, as a director
CEO, I could have sat there for

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three years and moaned about my
multiple relative to sandfires,

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multiple collected a paycheck
along the way.

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But was that the right thing for
shareholders?

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No, it wasn't.
So we act in the best interests

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of shareholders.
It's it, you know, it was, it

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was, it was always interesting
listening to Mac up his calls.

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You'd always get some operation
operational insights.

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And you know, it was, it was
clear that there were

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operational efficiencies being
driven at the site to to, you

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know, improve, you know, a whole
host of different, different

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figures.
But but it did always, it always

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seemed from the outside like the
the cap structure was just such

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a huge barrier to to push past
in, in generating kind of like

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free cash flow.
Would you would you agree with

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that characterization?
And I know that that cap

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structure was a necessary
component of getting the deal

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done in the 1st place, but is
that a fair characterization?

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I think it's right and partly
I'll say 2 comments.

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So the initial cap structure,
like we were levered, we had a

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fair bit of debt on the balance
sheet when we bought that asset,

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right, You know.
And so we moved aggressively to

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delever the balance sheet, you
know, raise all that money in

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the ASX.
The OPS made a fair bit of free

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cash as well.
So by the time we sold it, you

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know, net debt was, was very
manageable.

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The streams, I think and the
sort of the warrants that we had

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from the SPAC structure and
everyone got their knickers in a

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nod about, oh, you've got these
warrants, there's just some

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options, right?
So we, and the beauty in, in

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America is you can redeem them.
So we called those in, we

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cleaned that up, we cleaned the
debt up.

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The streams you couldn't clean
up.

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Australian investors in
particular really struggle with

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streams and, and you guys did an
episode recently explaining how

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streams work.
That would have been quite

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useful for a few of our
potential Australian

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shareholders or people who
couldn't get, you know, to me,

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I'm just a spreadsheet kind of
guy, right?

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Like I just put it all into a
spreadsheet.

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I run the numbers and it comes
out with an answer and you know,

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if you've got a 3% stream or
let's just, you just don't

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allocate for 3% of the metal,
right?

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Like it's quite, it's quite
simple, but I fully agree with

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you and, and, and I still don't
have an exact answer as to why

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we tried it inversely to the
copper price.

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There's no disputing that.
We did, you know, copper, copper

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fell out of bed.
Our share price went up partly

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because we were quite a low cost
producer, partly I think perhaps

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because we had those copper
contingents with Glencore that,

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you know, perhaps people were
thinking, oh, we're going to

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have to raise equity for that.
The reality is we never were

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going to raise equity.
We always had the money to pay

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them.
But there's no doubt the cap

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structure was in the Australian
market.

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In the North American market, I
don't think the cap structure

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really was a hindrance
whatsoever.

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You'd be you'd be struggling to
find a mid tier gold or copper

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company in Canada that doesn't
have a stream or two on them.

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I've got to, I've got to get
ultimately Harmony was the

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acquirer.
Now we, we, we sort of alluded

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to a potential Harmony Mac deal
a couple of times in our I know

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the director special in the lead
up and not that our Intel was

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ever like concrete, but you
know, what do you know?

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I'll actually, I've been
comfortable admitting how, how,

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how we, how we got tipped off on
this one.

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Apparently, apparently Harmony
came to site wearing Harmony

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shirts for DD.
Surely, surely you think a bit

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more thoughtfully than that.
Harmony hasn't done a corporate

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MNA and it was running 20
something years ago.

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And notwithstanding we have a
standard protocol of like here's

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your matte copper shirt when you
walk through the door.

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I'm not sure that the cobar hot
bike that they that that rule

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got observed down in town.
But again, look, we took a large

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amount of cash out of you know,
this is the thing, right?

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Yeah.
We'll talk a bit later on about

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where we are in the market, you
know, a, a factor of where you

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think you might be in the mining
cycle.

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You know, Robin Witham's old
clock, you know the, the clock

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that he used to do, you know,
all cash bids you're getting

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towards the end of that clock,
right?

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You're getting towards midnight,
right.

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So these guys fronted up with
the cash, you know, as a board,

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we, we, we seriously considered
just going in our own way.

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But again, if you were to plot
up our and we did a chart for

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the board as part of the pack,
our EBITDA generated versus

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share price, you know, we just
had EBITDA multiple compression

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from when we bought the asset to
when we sold the asset.

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We just saw the multiple just
compress.

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And so it was like, well, I've
got a, I've got a viable bidder

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here.
The alternative is at what point

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am I going to be able to get
that to turn around for my

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shareholders given that we
delivered on everything.

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So, so in the quarter before we
bought it, the C1 cost was about

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$3 and change USA pound and in
the last two months that we that

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we when we you know, June, July
we're at a dollar a pound and my

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EBITDA multiple went down.
So you sort of go, I can sit

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here and moan about that
valuation forever, or I can let

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my shareholders take, you know,
money off the table and make a

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return, redeploy it.
Like I know a bunch of my big

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holders redeployed it into a
bunch of other things that have

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ripped as well.
So like my job is to make money

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for shareholders and, and as
much as I love Cobar, I'd like,

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I spent a lot of time out there,
you know, far too many chicken

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schnitzels in the Cobar golfy.
And but that's the right thing

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for shareholders, right?
You make money for shareholders

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because you can always go back
and get money again.

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Me, I'm curious to hear when,
when you reflect on the forward

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year year journey with a bit of
hindsight now, are there perhaps

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deals or other things you, you
wish you might have done just

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along the way expanding?
I mean you mentioned Nevis Corvo

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there as as one potential
transaction that you went pretty

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hard on.
But were there, were there other

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really big ones that stand out
when you think back on it?

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Look again, it was in the press.
This is not pub non public info.

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We had a pretty good look at
North parks.

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We quite like N parks at a price
point.

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We were not, you know, that that
stream again, you know, big

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stream that sat on that really
impinged that asset a fair bit.

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Notwithstanding what's happened
to metal prices.

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We we absolutely would have
liked to have bought that for a

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price, just not the price that
are traded for.

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Obviously there's been a fair
bit of press about us, you know,

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having a good look at Mount Isa,
but you know, just

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fundamentally, you know,
Glencore, Gary was never quite

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ready to transact on it in the
time frame.

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And, and again, as a board we
sort of said, well, what if we

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don't sell?
You know, do we hang around and

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wait for maybe Nevish Corvo in
another two years?

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00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,400
Do we wait for Glencore decide
they do want to sell man eyes or

222
00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,120
after they've shut, you know,
obviously shut the copper mine

223
00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,200
getting a funding deal on the
smelter.

224
00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,840
Smelting world has got really
tough with the Chinese

225
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,200
oversupply of smelting capacity,
you know, so it's that's going

226
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,560
to be a tough asset.
So you know, we looked at lots

227
00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:00,440
of those things.
We looked at some stuff offshore

228
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,920
as well.
You know, we like again, when

229
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,640
you're a single asset company,
you, you, you sort of got to go

230
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,160
big or go home.
So you know, we, we if you think

231
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,720
in the Iberian pyrite belt
there's a 50,000 tonne a year

232
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,480
copper producer there, that's a
single asset company that you

233
00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,080
know we quite like.
You know, we like, we like that

234
00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,720
Atalaya.
Well, I'm not really saying who.

235
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,760
But you know, like.
There's a 50,000 tonne a year

236
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,640
single asset in the idea and
final.

237
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,680
But yeah, but you know, you sort
of like all of these single

238
00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:33,840
asset companies, you end up in
that position, right?

239
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:39,200
Like and, and you know, fund
managers tell me when Capstone

240
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,800
listed on the ASX a month after
we listed on the ASX or six

241
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,960
weeks or whatever between then
and when we sold, Capstone got

242
00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,440
$0.60 of every new copper dollar
on the ASX.

243
00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,880
So that really took the wind out
of our sails.

244
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,240
And then obviously probably the
majority of the rest of it went

245
00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,520
into sand fire because you know,
funds these days it's just a

246
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,400
liquidity and scale game, right?
And so that's why these things

247
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,600
get, you know, big valuation
multiples.

248
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,040
I'm sure you've seen the pitch
decks, you know, it's in gold,

249
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,000
it's been gold forever, it's in
base metals.

250
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,440
There's a clear relationship
between scale and liquidity and

251
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,320
multiple.
And, and so if you're, you know,

252
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,200
let's say you go down a run from
where we were like to the sort

253
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,360
of, you know, there's this, you
know, we've looked at all the 15

254
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,480
to 20,000 ton a year copper
producers in Australia or copper

255
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,160
hopefuls.
But you look at the multiple,

256
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,960
they try that and they'll
probably half the multiple we

257
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:38,920
were trading at, except for
develop.

258
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,560
Bill does a great job.
Bills got a pretty solid

259
00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:44,560
multiple, shall we say.
And, and in all, you know, I was

260
00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:47,000
a big shareholder and I was on
the board there with Bill for

261
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,760
two years.
So, but, but in general, there's

262
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,320
a very clear relationship
between scale liquidity and, and

263
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,040
and multiple, right.
So you have to get big or you go

264
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:57,960
home.
Sometimes that multiple is also

265
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,000
just related to the quality of
the assets as well, like you're

266
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,480
bigger because you have longer
life and lower cost assets.

267
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,160
And maybe that's when you
justify a big multiple.

268
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,600
And some, some of that is
presumably a factor of yeah,

269
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,480
scale, like the, the indexes
you're in, which now give you a

270
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,160
bigger, bigger multiple.
The the Does it feel like Iser

271
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,240
is in play again now?
Just out of curiosity?

272
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,400
Look, Glencore is Glencore, and
again, I bought the asset off

273
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,800
them.
You know, my chair was on the

274
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,840
Glencore board for nine years.
You know, I know Gary very well.

275
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,760
I've had a Glencore go on my
board.

276
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,000
So, you know, we have a great
relationship with Glencore.

277
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,840
You know, with Glencore,
everything's for sale.

278
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,720
Yeah, at a price.
Always the.

279
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:44,400
World's for sale.
It's hard to see how having just

280
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,720
taken all that money off the
Queensland government, they

281
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,120
could turn around and sell that
asset right now, I think.

282
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,120
But if someone offered them the
right price, you know, but it

283
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,240
but it wouldn't be an asset that
would be for everyone, right?

284
00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:04,120
Like it is, you know, it is a
turn around specialist job and

285
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,000
there are people that can do
that in Australia.

286
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,040
But you know, it is it it's it's
got a not small environmental

287
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,000
ability on that thing and a
culture there.

288
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,720
You know, when I look at assets,
I'm always about the culture,

289
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,400
right?
So you look at the culture there

290
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,080
and there's a fair bit of work
to do on the culture there,

291
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,840
which would be a big opportunity
if you could crack it.

292
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,920
But you know that eyes are old
time culture is interesting.

293
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,760
That, that is really fascinating
to, to hear.

294
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,760
And if we, if we zoom out and
look around the grounds that are

295
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,880
at the other Aussie assets,
that's more the, the undeveloped

296
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,040
ones, because you mentioned
there the, the difference in

297
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:41,520
multiple.
I think this is a really

298
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,240
interesting lens to kind of take
because there's the transactions

299
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,280
we've seen in recent times, Rex
being one of those ones that

300
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,280
comes to mind.
And then the ones that haven't

301
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,400
quite happened yet that people
chat about the, the Havilars,

302
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,680
the, the caravels that these
types of assets.

303
00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,240
Are there ones of that kind of
nature that you got close to,

304
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:02,040
you know, with the with the
opportunity being that you would

305
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,680
have to develop the project?
We looked at them all.

306
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,400
I've got to say my, you know, I
built Triton out between Lincoln

307
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,280
and Cobar 20 something years
ago, right.

308
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,720
So like I, you know, I'm not
averse to building a mind.

309
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,240
I generally don't lean in too
hard on development assets

310
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,560
unless it's like a sort of an
adjacent brown feely type thing,

311
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,320
mainly because I'm too
impatient.

312
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:28,800
Right.
Like if you've got a development

313
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,400
asset, you know, yeah, you can
buy it at a peed and have of

314
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,000
point 2.3 whatever the number
is, right?

315
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,560
Much less than a producing
asset, but your risk is much

316
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,640
higher.
But more importantly, the time

317
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,840
to get to the answer is much
longer, right, Because

318
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,680
permitting is only getting
longer, you know, it inevitably

319
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,560
takes more.
There is an asset we really

320
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:57,840
liked in the US actually that
was a sort of a development

321
00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,360
asset, big open pit with an
underground thing that have been

322
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,319
a disaster.
And, and but the big open pit

323
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:07,920
actually looks, we we quite like
the look of that a lot.

324
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,040
But yeah, we've looked at them
all the all of those things need

325
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,000
$5 plus copper sort of forever,
right?

326
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,319
So.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

327
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,040
I don't disagree on the, on the,
the development case of those

328
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:33,080
undeveloped projects, the yeah,
I, I, I mean when you, when,

329
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,880
when you look at the, the
undeveloped stuff that that

330
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:41,040
totally makes sense.
But I also just I, I wonder if

331
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,040
why didn't you do a deal on any
of the car buy assets like this

332
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,800
will be like you would have been
asked all the time, you know,

333
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,840
what are you going to, are you
going to move on to Irelia?

334
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,880
Are you going to move on, on PL.
You did do a, a kind of a

335
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,560
synergistic arrangement with,
with Poly metals, but everyone

336
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,360
talks about cobar synergies and
maybe the synergies are harder

337
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:03,080
to have, maybe they're more
complex or are not well

338
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,520
understood, but you know, to
what extent can you enlighten us

339
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,880
and everyone about the nature of
like where synergies lie in the

340
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,600
go bar?
I, I, I think there's huge

341
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,720
synergies to be had.
You know, if you sort of start

342
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,600
further away, you've got peel,
which would be the furthest one,

343
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,920
which is a bit sort of stranded
because you know, it's never

344
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,280
going to be big enough to build
a plant.

345
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,840
You know the cost of building a
plant these days is is is

346
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,960
multiples of where it was like
when I built Triton 900,000 ton

347
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:37,200
a year concentrator, 26
kilometre pipeline power line

348
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:43,400
and a decline down to 200
meters, 2339 million Australian

349
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,480
dollars for all of that, right.
Cobar's long infrastructure

350
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,160
though, so you don't need to
build plants, right?

351
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,240
No, no.
But, well, it's long

352
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,920
infrastructure, but management's
are entrenched.

353
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,040
Yeah, and they don't want to do
deals because they're all

354
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:04,200
hanging on for dear life.
So if we start, you know, Peel

355
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,480
never going to be big enough to
build a build a plant.

356
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,160
It really has got some
interesting stuff.

357
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,040
Got actually probably got the
best expiration package outside

358
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:18,080
of CSA in the whole bill.
Obviously we had discussions

359
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,920
with everybody, right?
Like, you know, we were there,

360
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,320
we were funded, given my
institutional backing, we could

361
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,480
raise any amount of money you
wanted sort of thing.

362
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,320
Like for Nevis Corvo, we figured
we'd do a billion dollar equity

363
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,440
raise in the morning and I had a
soft circle with eight funds

364
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:42,120
already.
So, you know, I think the assets

365
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,680
that are really are gone are
interesting, but they're they're

366
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,440
all still what somewhat scrappy,
right?

367
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,360
Like there's nothing that's like
a CSA, you know, you haven't got

368
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,960
20 million tons of 5% sitting in
one spot.

369
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,080
Holly Metals.
We really liked Endeavour.

370
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,560
I know Sprayly very well.
You know, a tragic accident, you

371
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,040
know, the, the recently which
has really affected the town of

372
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,120
my dad, actually the, the whole
town.

373
00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,120
And you know, we really like
Endeavour.

374
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,720
I've known Sprayly for 20 years.
He's a great operator.

375
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,280
We sort of looked at it and saw
thought well, a, we couldn't buy

376
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,160
it at the right price because he
owns so much of it.

377
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,240
He owned like 45% of it, him and
his mates.

378
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,840
We didn't really want to own a
zinc mine, but we wanted an

379
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,960
outlet for our zinc and I wanted
some water off him.

380
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,760
So we did the deal.
Honestly, we made three times

381
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,200
our money on that and actually
funded the entire Marin mine

382
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,480
development out of out of my
little day trading, you know,

383
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,560
little day trading account with
that thing.

384
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,680
And it's got, you know, not a
small amount of acid drainage on

385
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,040
that TSF up there that we didn't
really think fit our, you know,

386
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,360
clean, green, environmentally
friendly mantra.

387
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,360
But but look, there's definitely
a consolidation you can do

388
00:20:57,360 --> 00:20:58,680
there.
But, you know, trying to get

389
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:03,240
people to actually have a
conversation is really

390
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,960
difficult.
You know, we, I'm the most

391
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,720
commercial guy you'll ever come
across, right?

392
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:12,800
Like we just get deals done.
Not everyone is like that.

393
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,800
Not everyone is thinking, is
this the best thing for

394
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,880
shareholders and will it do me
out of a job?

395
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,520
Quite frankly, I look at things
and I go if, if you own enough

396
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,120
equity in the business and you
end up doing yourself out of a

397
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,640
job, great result for
shareholders and great result

398
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:32,400
for me.
So I, I think there is a, there

399
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,880
is a solution there.
The challenge you'll have now is

400
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,480
Harmony is a monster sized
company.

401
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,120
You know, the huge gold price,
they're making a squillion

402
00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:43,040
dollars.
They don't have a currency to

403
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,000
use in Australia now, whereas we
did.

404
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,120
So, you know, again, they'd have
to pay cash for anything and you

405
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:52,200
know, haven't had a look at
Aurelia for a few weeks, but you

406
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,320
know, that's probably a 600
million Aussie, 700 million

407
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,880
Aussie bid price.
That's a fair bit for those

408
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,640
assets, I think.
Yeah, Your comment on being

409
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,640
being happy to do deals, I mean
like we were, we were, we were

410
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,040
struck going through the the
history of how short your tenure

411
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,200
was at some, some companies
between getting, yeah, getting

412
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:15,720
the helm and actually
transacting.

413
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:21,400
It was like detour.
April to January detour $4.9

414
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,000
billion Canadian deal.
Yeah, it was the I started isn't

415
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,160
on the 1st of May I announced
the deal I think it was like the

416
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:33,840
26th of November closed on the
31st of June, January sorry and

417
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,920
it was 2.1 billion market cap
when I started and sold it for

418
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:42,200
4.9.
Not a bad eight-month, 8 month

419
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,760
spell was the, was the, the sort
of thinking when, when you were

420
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,160
sort of, you know, vetting the
job, getting, getting involved

421
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,200
that, that type of thing turn
around project.

422
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,920
See what we can kind of do is, I
mean, it's clear in your, your,

423
00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,080
your, you know, that you like
doing deals and, and these sorts

424
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:01,640
of things.
Is that always in the in the

425
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,080
back of the mind or just
assessing it as it goes?

426
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,240
Thinking about value as you go?
Whichever the best way to

427
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,920
unearth value is right.
So in that particular instance

428
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,520
that had been the subject of a
very high profile activist

429
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,440
campaign led by a guy out in New
York called John Paulson, who,

430
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,720
you know, you may know, short of
the US housing market.

431
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:24,440
If you watch that movie, the Big
Short, you know, he's one of

432
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:29,720
those guys interesting cat, you
know, ran a campaign on the

433
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,000
basis of it's too cheap.
We're going to say, I think the

434
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,040
stock was 10 bucks Canadian.
We're going to fix it and we're

435
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,760
going to sell it at 14, right.
And I and I came in as the Ceoi

436
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,840
sold it at $28.50 seven months
later.

437
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,840
And that one, you know, an
amazing wool body.

438
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,920
You know, the, the, the, when I
moved back to Perth, people

439
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:51,920
said, oh, what have you been
doing, Mickey?

440
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,240
You've been gone for 10 years.
And so I ran Detour and they go,

441
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,200
what's that?
They go, have you heard of the

442
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,600
Super Pit?
And they go, yeah, Bill, he's

443
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,280
done a great job.
Yeah, it's double the size of

444
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:05,040
that.
So we were moving 350,000 tonne

445
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,560
of dirt a day, milling 75,000
tonne a day.

446
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,800
I think it'll do 900,000 oz this
year out of the one mine we

447
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,560
chopped about 250 bucks an ounce
out of the cost US all in

448
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,320
properly, you know like
sustainable in in seven or eight

449
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,280
months.
There was a lot of issues at

450
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,720
that business and so didn't
really bring a lot of people in

451
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,400
from outside brought some guys
out of actually out of Perth,

452
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,720
the old RSG global guys that
came in And we did a lot of work

453
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:41,640
in the in the in the pit and and
we just look for value, right.

454
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,040
And we actually we're open to
whether that's you're buying,

455
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,880
you're selling, if you can get
someone, you know, the stock had

456
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:52,040
gone up.
I don't know, nearly a double in

457
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,080
anticipation of stuff that I was
going to do.

458
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,600
I think it sort of got a little
bit ahead of itself and then

459
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,960
someone turned up with a 48%
premium bid.

460
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,080
Well, what are you going to do?
You're going to sit there and,

461
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:07,120
and grind it out like it, it got
ahead of itself and we hit the

462
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:11,400
bid and everyone was very happy.
You know, so I have a background

463
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:17,560
in private equity and so I think
in terms of IRR, you know, and,

464
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,800
and time value of money.
And so, yeah, I think the day

465
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,400
I'd buy an asset or go in to run
an asset, I'm already, I've

466
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,280
already thought about four ways
which I can realize value out of

467
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:34,080
that thing.
I want, I do want to, you know,

468
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,880
there's so many different parts
of your career we could, we

469
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,120
could ask you about.
But actually, actually I'm

470
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:40,680
increasingly interested in
Oceana Gold, Mick, where I know

471
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,520
you're on the board for a while.
What's end game for Oceana?

472
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,280
Yeah, again, that was another
activist campaign that never

473
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,640
never got public to be activist,
but it was definitely activists.

474
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:58,000
So a bunch of shareholders put
me in the chair on the board to,

475
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,680
to, you know, that lost that
sort of tipio that lost the

476
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:07,280
license, how it was a disaster.
You know, like it literally they

477
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,360
had holes in the Hall Rd. that
were 5-6 feet deep full of

478
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:14,880
water.
I think tire life was like 1500

479
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,600
hours, 1200 hours on a tire.
You know, it was, it was just so

480
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,080
I actually recruited my my
general manager out of detour

481
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:26,040
out of the pit there and, and
put him into there.

482
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,560
They've had a huge run.
Jared's done a great job.

483
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,400
You know, he was first time CEO
and he was, you know, come out

484
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,480
of Newcrest, we put him in there
and he was clever enough to know

485
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,480
what he didn't know.
And so, you know, he was

486
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,320
actually very open and sort of
wanting to know, you know, Nick,

487
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:46,640
you've done this a few times
before.

488
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,560
What should I be doing?
And so we, you know, he was he,

489
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,560
you get some CEOs that don't
really want to listen.

490
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,440
He was great.
He done it.

491
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,760
He's done a great job.
What do they do now?

492
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,600
Stocks had a great tear.
The the DDPO mine generates an

493
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,160
enormous amount of free cash.
But it is in the Philippines,

494
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,400
right?
And I had six years in the

495
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,800
Philippines.
Not sure that's on my

496
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,120
destination list of where I'm
buying assets again.

497
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,920
I think they need to merge, get
bigger, buy something or try and

498
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,920
get someone to take them out.
But yeah, it's had a great run,

499
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,120
right.
And and I noticed in your in the

500
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,560
Iron Gulls, the other one that's
in your report that I just see

501
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,720
come through.
So I know that that one very

502
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,160
well also, yeah.
Go on.

503
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,760
So also was an activist campaign
that RCF LED actually.

504
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,400
Yeah, right.
So how these how these activist

505
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,480
campaigns manifest when they're
not always, you know, public

506
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:50,080
facing activist campaigns?
Yeah, so you, you'll like

507
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:55,640
Elliott or someone will or RCF
or someone will, will coalesce

508
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,600
people around them, you know,
like Stillwater.

509
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,760
The activists, they're only ever
owned 1.6% of the register, but

510
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,480
we still managed to roll half
the board with 1.6% of the

511
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:11,360
register.
So an activist wet dream is when

512
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:13,400
the incumbents just say no,
right.

513
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,760
So you, you sort of get
together, you'll have a thesis

514
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,480
about how things could be run
better.

515
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,680
You know, you'll sort of phone
up the chair or the, you know,

516
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:23,280
say, listen, we want some
changes.

517
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,160
And then they, they'll either
engage or they won't.

518
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,640
Where they engage you, you can
sort of depending how much they

519
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,400
engage, you can sort of like get
some of what you want, but not

520
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,120
all of it.
Where they dig their heels in

521
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,080
and go, no, we, we refuse to
engage with you.

522
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,600
Like that's the best thing ever.
Because at that point, you know,

523
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,560
you, you just launch into a
public campaign, you put them in

524
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,000
a, in a, in a bear hug.
And there's firms in the US that

525
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,160
do this very well, right?
If, as I often say, if I turn up

526
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,040
in your boardroom fronting for
an activist, it's usually not a

527
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,720
great day for the board because
we probably know more about your

528
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,480
company than you do.
Elliot did a phenomenal job on

529
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,840
Iconic when they rolled the
board there.

530
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:18,240
I think they did a 368 page
presentation that went public of

531
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,040
literally everything that that
CEO had ever done.

532
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,200
Yeah, there's people that they
do this for a living and

533
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:26,960
they're, they're not always nice
people.

534
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,120
But yeah, when they don't become
public, you know, it's usually

535
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,280
when you'll sort of see, you
know, Aceo fall on their sword

536
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,080
or a chair fall on their sword
as well.

537
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,320
And stuff's been bubbling away
underneath.

538
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:40,960
And then a few new directors go
on.

539
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,840
They don't do a lot of it in
Australia, unfortunately.

540
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,160
Like it's, there should be more
of it.

541
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,280
You know, I'm sure you guys can
think of a few companies, I'm

542
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,240
not naming names here, but you
know, there's, I can think of

543
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,240
one prime example there that
would be great for an activist

544
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,440
campaign.
But in Australia, if

545
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,680
shareholders don't like the
answer, they just sell right and

546
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,560
just just move on.
Totally.

547
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,560
I think, I think there's
different, yeah, in Australia

548
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,440
there's, there's a perception
amongst, amongst even the types

549
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,160
of shareholders that like to be
activisty that the more loud you

550
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,440
are, the the negative
repercussions are large in terms

551
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,120
of, you know, deal flow because
it's a small, small market with

552
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,040
a lot of equity raises.
You've got the likes of Elliot

553
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,920
as well, who that's their bread
and butter activism.

554
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,680
Whereas a lot of these Aussie
funds, it's only a small sort

555
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,840
of, you know, it's 1 arrow in
the, in the, in the collection

556
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,320
that they've got and time and
reputation is just so taxing,

557
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,080
right?
Yeah, yeah.

558
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,560
What are you observing about
Barrick, by the way?

559
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,600
Does that, does that like, just
reek of all the hallmarks of a

560
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,480
of a classic activist campaign?
Who's that?

561
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,240
Sorry.
Barrick, Barrick Gold right now,

562
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,800
yeah.
I couldn't really say.

563
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,520
Well, look, it's it's it's a
very interesting company with a

564
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,840
lot of a lot of interesting
attributes of things that need

565
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,680
to be fixed and, you know, some
unhappy shareholders.

566
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,720
So yeah, who's to say what
happens there?

567
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,600
I, I am curious to, to dive in
even deeper on that making and

568
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,720
understand how, how your
perception and your, your

569
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,440
relationship with your investor
base has evolved over time.

570
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,520
You know, you've, you've
mentioned your, your

571
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:28,120
institutional backing there.
You clearly have a, a reputation

572
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,400
and you know a lot of these big
investors in the mining space

573
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,600
very well.
Are there are there plenty of

574
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,600
different models out there that
you've kind of come across?

575
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,280
Obviously you've got your, your
preferred sort of style of, of

576
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,880
staying close with with your
register, but how has that sort

577
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,240
of like changed over time?
I just want to learn more about

578
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,320
that whole that relationship.
Sure.

579
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,520
If I go like, you know, when I
was doing stuff in Australia

580
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,160
that was sort of generally, you
know, smaller deals, you know,

581
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,480
sort of up to, I don't know,
billion Aussie or something

582
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:02,600
wrong.
When I moved to the US about,

583
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,880
well, really about 2012, you
know, I'd go and see these funds

584
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,600
that I'd never heard of
literally.

585
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,200
And this is like going back 1213
years ago, never heard of these

586
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,240
guys.
And I'd get to the end of the

587
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,920
meeting and I'd say, oh, So what
sort of assets under management

588
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,560
are you running?
And they'd go 50 billion US and

589
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,160
I'd never have heard of these
blokes, right.

590
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,960
And they'd be like many, many
meetings like that.

591
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:30,320
So I would say over time, as
you, as you as you particularly

592
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,040
do stuff in North America, the
pond is much, much deeper in

593
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,120
terms of pools of capital,
right?

594
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,000
And people that can deploy like
really large licks of capital.

595
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,640
Now in Australia, you've
obviously got Aussie super and

596
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,640
uni super and a few others.
But you know, there's, there's a

597
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:52,160
lot of those in the US and, and
actually based out of London as

598
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,360
well, some large amounts of
capital notwithstanding the

599
00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,600
London market being pretty dead.
So on that first one, you know,

600
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,960
that was about a three 3 1/2
year timeline to to fix the

601
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,480
business, get it sold, sold that
sebanion for all all cash was

602
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,720
2.7 billion US all up, I suppose
including the debt.

603
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,840
And that was really interesting
because that was hard, hard

604
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:18,960
work.
Like that was a heavily

605
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:23,120
unionized asset, phenomenal ore
body, been running for 30 years

606
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,400
and never really made any money.
20 grams, the ton PGMS.

607
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,920
But you know, it's just and, and
I had big shareholders say to

608
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:37,240
me, we hold shares in this thing
on the hope that one day someone

609
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:38,680
can sort this business out,
right?

610
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,120
Not because it had made X
dollars the year before or

611
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,040
whatever.
It was just like, you know, it

612
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:49,280
had a 50 million oz reserve at
20 grams to the tunnel 2

613
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,360
operating mines in a great place
in the US, but never made any

614
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,880
money.
Like I think it made money three

615
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,760
years out of 27 before I fronted
up.

616
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,960
And that was the first time
where I fixed that business and

617
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,640
we sold it and everyone had a
really good result.

618
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,440
We're like the big end of town.
We're all very appreciative and

619
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,000
we're like, OK, we're ready to
cut your big checks again,

620
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:14,920
right?
Like in Australia, in the, you

621
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,440
know, in Australia, like I'd
sort of done some things, sold a

622
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,960
few things, but you didn't have
those big guys going.

623
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,040
What are you doing next?
You know, we'd like to give you

624
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,000
$100 million, right?
Multiple people.

625
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,239
And then, and then then I did a
fair bit of private equity work.

626
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,080
So I ran a huge fracs end
business in in West TX for

627
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,120
private equity.
Love Texas, it's a great place.

628
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,440
It's almost as good as COBA.
And and then out of that, a

629
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,800
bunch of those like the
Carlyle's and Blackstone guys

630
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,280
were also prepared to give me
money.

631
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,159
So then you sort of and then
went and did detour and made

632
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,040
people a lot of money on that
one in that short space of time.

633
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:59,040
Now we're our cities.
I've sort of got I guess an

634
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,680
excess of capital and now I need
to find deals to deploy that

635
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:08,280
capital.
And so how things have evolved

636
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,880
over time has been you've gone
from scrambling for capital to

637
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,280
then going, well, geez, I've got
all these guys that want to give

638
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,000
me more capital or put me in to
go and run, you know, not so

639
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,080
well run businesses for them
where they're all, you know,

640
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,480
stuck in these things and they
need someone to fix it and exit

641
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,280
it for them.
So now, quite frankly, my

642
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,200
biggest issue is finding those
transactions to deploy that

643
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,640
capital into and finding the
right ones where I can maximize

644
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,400
the value for my time and
maximize the return for my

645
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,560
shareholders, right?
Because there's only so much I

646
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,360
can do in a day.
And as I said, you know, Matt,

647
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:48,200
great business, loved it.
Smallest thing I run in a

648
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,760
decade.
So now it's like I've got to get

649
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,360
myself into fairly large stuff
in order to generate the return

650
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,640
that, you know in absolute
dollars that these guys need to

651
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,680
generate.
Did you ever get sick of us

652
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,200
running Sandvic ground support
ads when we talk about Matt

653
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,600
Copper?
No, no, fine.

654
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:07,800
What did you think of Derek
Heard?

655
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,080
Good bloke, great bloke, isn't
he?

656
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,520
Great bloke, great bloke.
Operating out in Newcastle, not

657
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,040
too far from from the Cobra
there out on the eastern

658
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,200
seaboard.
But as as Mick Welland truly

659
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,880
knows, the greatest ground
support across the world and

660
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,240
most importantly here in our
neck of the woods in Australia,

661
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:28,240
I've got the Q Dow manufacturing
facility still fighting the good

662
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:29,600
fight, producing everything on
that track.

663
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,880
Hey, hey, Mick's next turn
around, it's going to be an

664
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,440
underground mine.
You know what underground mines

665
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:34,440
need they need.
Support.

666
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,320
They need ground support.
Sandy Ground support.

667
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,440
How do you think about
commodities with the most

668
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,440
attractive opportunities at the
moment?

669
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:44,960
Yeah.
Look, as you say, I've done,

670
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,080
I've done PGMS, I've done gold,
I've done copper, I've done

671
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,200
zinc.
I've done these like a potash

672
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:52,960
thing in the Ethiopia at some
point.

673
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,680
I've like I've done just about
iron ore.

674
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,400
I was a trader in zulk for six
years.

675
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,520
You know, like I've done most
jurisdictions, I've done most

676
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:05,520
commodities.
I'm a bit commodity agnostic,

677
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,560
although I do look at it like
say, say Cannington, right?

678
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,920
So S 30 twos maybe maybe not
selling Cannington.

679
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,200
I think about that buying a
silver asset at a $50 silver

680
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,080
price, I'd want to be very
confident that I could strip a

681
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,880
lot of costs and out of that and
get a lot of production out of

682
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,040
that to to, you know, because
could you see silver down 10

683
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:29,760
bucks an ounce?
Absolutely you could.

684
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,840
You got to run pretty hard
operationally to, to get around

685
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,200
that.
So I'm I'm a bit of a counter

686
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,640
cyclical investor as well.
So same thing when I think about

687
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,760
gold, would I buy a gold asset
right now?

688
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:47,320
How do I compete using cash
versus some of these guys with

689
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,840
this gold paper?
It's pretty hard, right.

690
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,000
But would I go and run a gold
company right now that you know

691
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,200
is not very well run that I can
see lots of opportunities to

692
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,840
unlock value?
Yeah, that's and then I'm pretty

693
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,840
good at structuring something to
go or how do we make sure we got

694
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,880
some downside protection.
I'll throw it out there.

695
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,920
Lithium, you know, I know it's
been in the toilet, but like

696
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,840
some point lithium, you know, if
you buy the right asset for the

697
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,560
right price.
I could think of AI, could think

698
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,040
of a lithium company that needs
needs an activist tilt

699
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,240
Albemarle.
Yeah.

700
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:33,640
Oh well, call me something
tonight, I was thinking I want

701
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,320
to be closer home.
Well, you've, you've put your

702
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,080
feet in the water with with
rarest as well.

703
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:41,960
Mick, how do you, how do you
think about that?

704
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,120
Just really fascinating part of
the market.

705
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,120
Yeah.
So recycle private company, I

706
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,480
don't know, I'm just under 40%
of the thing in the US.

707
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,880
So I, I got involved in that
about four and a half years ago.

708
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,600
I had some guys in Perth that
had bought that business in, in

709
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,200
Houston.
So I said, what do you know

710
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,120
about recycling?
And in the US?

711
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,640
And I said, well, Stillwater
was, we were the biggest auto

712
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,760
catalyst recycler in the world,
right, by large margin.

713
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,880
So a lot is the short answer.
So, and then I sort of, you

714
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,160
know, I thought, you know, back
then cyclical economy, you know,

715
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,120
recycling, you know, it'd be a
great thing.

716
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,320
So I put some money into it and
in the winters of the rare earth

717
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,240
market, I was the only one
funding it for a long period of

718
00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:26,600
time.
So I ended up owning, I don't

719
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,320
know, whatever 39% of that
thing.

720
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,080
And then of of course, the whole
China, US story blew up in the

721
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,120
back of my mind.
I always had this thing going.

722
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,080
You know, China controls 97% of
the rare earth.

723
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,560
That might be an important thing
at some point.

724
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,360
We, we had Chinese companies
offering US money all the way

725
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:46,840
along.
We would not take it.

726
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,240
That company is funded by the
Department of War.

727
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:53,720
So lots of people announced U.S.
government funding.

728
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,640
Not many people cash the checks.
We, we, well, we're not at the

729
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:58,680
moment because the government
shut.

730
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,200
But yeah, up until a month ago,
we, we cashed the check every

731
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,680
month.
So, you know, that is a, you

732
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,080
know, producing rare earths has
produced rare earths in the US.

733
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,440
It's about to start again
probably around about February,

734
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:16,440
I think from US sourced, you
know, scrap, you know, magnet

735
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,840
scrap.
Let's just say the rare earth

736
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,560
bubble has been very bubbly.
A bit of air has come out of it

737
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,600
over the last week because China
and the US have Kirsten made-up.

738
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,200
But you know, fundamentally I
still see that I think the US

739
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,080
basically will sort of go we've
got a year to to secure a

740
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:41,400
supply.
It's an amazing thematic and you

741
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,720
have to be in the US.
If you are not in the US in rare

742
00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:47,800
earths, you are not going to be
anywhere.

743
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,240
And you know that business.
And I know, you know, someone

744
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:56,080
that's on the board there.
He he's a, you know, great

745
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,240
director and shareholder that is
a is a guest presenter on your

746
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:03,360
show every now and again.
You know, having that American

747
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,520
presence is really important.
The US government is continuing

748
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:12,200
to hand out large amounts of
grants, loans, equity

749
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,680
investments in rare earth
production in the US And it is

750
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,000
real money, right?
They are giving out real money.

751
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,080
This isn't sort of like some of
the excellent stuff they

752
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:25,520
announce is remains to be seen
how much of that gets drawn.

753
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,200
But some of the other stuff that
the Department of War is doing

754
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,920
is, is serious money.
And so, you know, if you can

755
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,960
produce rare earths in in near
term in the US, that's got to be

756
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,040
worth something.
Are you noticing more and more

757
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,000
attention beings like put on
you, you know mentioned before

758
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,960
we started recording that you
spend a lot of time in in the

759
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,880
states.
Are you getting more and more of

760
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,320
these investors paying
attention, giving you a call

761
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:52,640
asking you about the the mining
world?

762
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,240
Yes, is yeah, that's, that's in
short, yes.

763
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,440
And actually some of my large
math investors, you know,

764
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,920
through the Grapevine have sort
of said like on recycle.

765
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,280
Oh, tell us about this recycle
thing you've got.

766
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:14,840
We'd like to give you some
money, but yeah, we're, I don't

767
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,960
really comment on, on, on
Trump's politics in the US.

768
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,240
Not everyone's a fan.
You know, I look at it this way

769
00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:28,120
and I go, there's a couple of
things I'll say about the US

770
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:32,440
and, and the Donald.
I spend a lot of time in the UK,

771
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,640
Europe and and obviously
Australia.

772
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,920
It seems to me that a lot of
people in those countries are

773
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,280
actually almost ashamed of their
own country.

774
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,480
In the US, they're very proud,
particularly, you know, Trump

775
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,320
and the Republicans, whether you
agree with these methods or not,

776
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,000
they want to make the US great
again.

777
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,640
And they are throwing
significant amount of capital

778
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:01,000
into the US, like the mining
industry into funding of all

779
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:06,320
these critical minerals to
actually make like make the US

780
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,000
produce a lot more right and not
be relying on the world.

781
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,120
So we touched earlier on sort
of, you know, copper smelters

782
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:13,920
and what's happening in the
copper smelting world.

783
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,960
And the Chinese, there's no
doubt the Chinese have flooded

784
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,800
the market with copper smelting
capacity, have driven TCRC's

785
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,720
down to incredibly low numbers
where basically no one else can

786
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:27,000
make money.
And that's what these tariffs,

787
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:28,920
you know, so they're trying to
push everyone else out of

788
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:35,080
business and the US is actually
trying to put measures in place

789
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,440
to protect their domestic
industry.

790
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,240
Now whether it's going to end up
like our Australian car industry

791
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:44,160
with tariffs on your luxury car
tax or not, I don't know.

792
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,440
But if you are mining in the US
or want to be mining in the US

793
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:53,440
right now, this is probably the
best time in the last 30 years,

794
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,080
40 years to be doing it.
And I was I have this main lobby

795
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,440
group in the US called the
National Mining Association.

796
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,200
So I used to be an executive
board member of that spends like

797
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,160
80 million USA lobbying the
government roughly or more

798
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:06,800
probably.
Now.

799
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:12,280
I was there when Trump one point
O came in and the red tape and

800
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,960
green tape that got stripped
away back then.

801
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,920
And what he's doing now is like
warp speed relative to what he's

802
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:23,720
did back then.
So actually the US, like if I

803
00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:26,080
was sort of going well, where
would I do something next?

804
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:29,600
You know, I think the US would
be a great spot to go and do

805
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,000
not, not all of the US, it's
like, you know, really only four

806
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,680
states, but you know, the mining
states in the US, that's a spot

807
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,760
where you'd go.
And investors, a lot of those

808
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,240
big investors are chasing me for
where's some opportunities in

809
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:47,360
the US.
Speaking of the, yeah, the

810
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,400
activist type of investors out
there, let's talk about some of

811
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,080
the news we've observed in the
last week, Mick, and if you've

812
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,280
got any, any, any special
comments on it.

813
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,040
There's been a bit heating up
just in relation to Palace's

814
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,960
activist campaign to, to, to Rio
Tinto of light.

815
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,360
I'm sure you've been you've been
following this one.

816
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,480
We have.
And yeah, they've been added a

817
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,200
while.
They made a lot of noise in the

818
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,440
lead up to Rio's AGM about the,
the push to to, to, you know,

819
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,760
get rid of its dual listed DLC
structure like BHP done in the

820
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,040
past and have a single listing
entity, which in theory would

821
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,320
make it more amenable to using
script for large M&A.

822
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,080
And they're now really pointing
out the opportunity to acquire

823
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:30,880
tech.
Of course tech is in play

824
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:37,080
because of the tech Anglo deal.
What do you make of the, you

825
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,920
know, this activist campaign and
and and effectively like do you

826
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,040
think, do you, do you do you
look at this and think, you

827
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:43,880
know, Palliser's got a point?
This makes a lot of sense.

828
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,240
Well, what I would say to you
again is someone like Palliser,

829
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:51,160
I know where some of those
people have come from.

830
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:58,440
Elliot.
These guys will have researched

831
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,400
every single aspect of that
structural change, right?

832
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,960
They will have done incredibly
detailed work.

833
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:12,760
So I think again, you would sort
of bat people away like this at

834
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:17,000
your peril because they will
have done, you know, there's

835
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,840
some incredibly smart people at
these kinds of places, right?

836
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,080
So the, so the structural thing
again, I'm not coming one way or

837
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,600
another, but if someone like
Palace or Elliot turns up and

838
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,560
says we think you should do
this, I think if I was on that

839
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,080
board, I'd be, I'd be giving it
a bit of consideration.

840
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,720
The tech deal, you know, look,
having just done a deal that

841
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:42,720
took five months to close from
announced to close, I don't know

842
00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:44,880
how long that Anglo tech deal is
going to take to close, but it's

843
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,880
going to be a long, long time.
You know, how do you keep the

844
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,960
wheels on the bus for that whole
time?

845
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:56,120
And it gives interlopers a very
long period of time in which to

846
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,520
get their ducks lined up right.
And so, you know, if tech has

847
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:08,360
any sort of misstep along the
way, you know, I think there's

848
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:13,160
an opportunity there, whether
whether a brand new CEO, you

849
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:17,720
know, Simon's been in there for
whatever month to two months,

850
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:20,880
whatever the number is, it's a
pretty big deal to go out, you

851
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:25,440
know, go out pretty early in
your in your tenure on so.

852
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:31,840
But I would say because I don't
think Rio is the only people

853
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:37,440
that would be looking at that
interloper scenario, those kinds

854
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,280
of assets come up once in a
generation or not, maybe not

855
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:42,800
even in a generation.
Like it's, you know, putting

856
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:47,080
your foot on those, you know,
good quality tech assets.

857
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,640
There's not much out there on.
What, what, What alternatives

858
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,600
should we be thinking about in
terms of our potential

859
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:58,480
interlopers?
I'm not sure I really want to go

860
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,880
with that.
You know, yeah, Are we, are we

861
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,000
still thinking like major minors
or are we thinking alternative

862
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:04,960
sources of capital?
We're just thinking like.

863
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,560
Major, major minors like, you
know, yeah, yeah, you've only

864
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,600
got like three or three or so to
pick.

865
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,720
So like you, you know, but
honestly, it like in the Game of

866
00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:16,360
Thrones, it could be any of
them, right?

867
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:21,600
You know, if you're sitting in
in, you know, a BD role or a or

868
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:26,760
the chair role of any of those
other big players, you I don't

869
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,360
think you can just go, Nah,
we're just not going to look

870
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:30,600
that way.
We're going to look over here.

871
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,600
We're just going to ignore this.
I just don't think you can do

872
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:34,040
that.
Right.

873
00:48:34,240 --> 00:48:38,960
So people would haven't have to
run the ruler over all these

874
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,240
things.
Antitrust could be an issue

875
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:46,720
possibly for some of them.
But yeah, it'll be interesting.

876
00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:51,960
But it's just a long, long time
to go to, to get to the answer,

877
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:53,720
right?
And it's a bit like the two, you

878
00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:56,840
know, two or three large gold
companies, you know, lots of

879
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,080
discussion about what could or
could not happen there.

880
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,120
But jeez, that'd be that.
That'd be a long time to close

881
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,600
on any of those, right?
So interlopers would have a lot

882
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,320
of time.
I'm curious to hear you take on

883
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,480
the ability for, for Palace to,
to force change because they

884
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:17,200
they reportedly own 400 million
bucks or or less in $100 billion

885
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:22,240
plus company in in Rio Tinto.
Is that in in your experience

886
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,080
enough given their their
experience, their nature, their

887
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,080
ability to get other
shareholders on board to to

888
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,440
force change?
Yeah.

889
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,200
Well, again, that might be what
they own on the last filing.

890
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,400
So, you know, there's nothing
stopping them buying more.

891
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,920
I think again, go back to the
Stillwater example where the

892
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:44,760
activists there owned 1.6% of
the total issued capital and

893
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,400
convincingly, you know, cleaned
out the half of the board

894
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:49,680
they're trying to get rid of and
this.

895
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:51,680
And then we got rid of the CEO
shortly there afterwards.

896
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:56,200
So, you know, the way these
activist campaigns work, unless

897
00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,800
it's some sort of small company
where someone buys 25% and 2 or

898
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:06,840
20 percent 249-D someone, you
know, they have a force

899
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:08,680
multiplier.
So they own a position.

900
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:12,240
They got enough to have a voice,
but then they go public and

901
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:16,120
start, you know, as you've seen
start, you know, ramping up the

902
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,320
pressure and putting out more
and more work product.

903
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,760
Again, if you got nothing to do
with your time, I would search

904
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:28,000
up iconic and Elliot and have it
is a fascinating textbook case

905
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:34,320
of an activist situation about
how and it got very nasty.

906
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,360
Paulson on detour is another
pretty good, pretty good example

907
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:43,160
as well.
Paulson I think owned four 5%

908
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,480
something like that.
So no, they don't need to own.

909
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,080
It's not like not like you need
to own 20% to get there.

910
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:54,920
If you can make a sensible
rational argument that there's

911
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,560
value to be unlocked, then then
particularly in the London

912
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,760
market, as I say, the Aussies
less so.

913
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,200
But you know, in the London
market or international guys

914
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,800
rare be well held enough
internationally that you could

915
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,480
get you could get other people
on board, I would imagine if it

916
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:11,080
makes sense, right, it's got to
make sense.

917
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,240
Totally, yeah, I actually, I
listened to the the, the speech

918
00:51:16,240 --> 00:51:22,640
by the, the Palliser guy at the,
at Rio's AGM and yeah, and, and

919
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,080
you, you flick through the deck
and they're incredibly

920
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,960
compelling arguments.
And then the, the, the rebuttal

921
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,960
from, from, from Rio, you know,
like they put together an entire

922
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,960
team to to refute or to push
back on, on, on these activist

923
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:37,880
pushes.
It's interesting here on your

924
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,600
point that like the best
strategy is actually to engage

925
00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:43,640
thoughtfully as opposed to so I
just refute.

926
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,120
Yeah, well, as long as they're
not asking for something

927
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:52,000
completely unreasonable.
But you, you're always, whether

928
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,240
it's in your personal life and
I'm not sure my wife would

929
00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:57,320
agree, but in your personal life
or your professional life,

930
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,360
you're always better to have a
conversation than an argument is

931
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,400
is my view.
I don't know if everybody would

932
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:08,360
agree about about me on that,
but maybe I'll mail out a bit as

933
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,600
I got a bit older.
I think there's a good nugget in

934
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,040
there, Mick, a couple other
deals around the world came to

935
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:19,760
get your your take on so clear
buying new gold.

936
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,000
This is a sort of circus 7
billion U.S. dollar deal for

937
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,000
those that didn't catch it out
there, 7 North American precious

938
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,200
metal assets pretty pretty large
scale.

939
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,600
But the the the big bit of news
to come out the back of this one

940
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,760
was the shareholder reaction
from the on the acquires part.

941
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:41,880
So they fell, I think 13 odd
percent on on the day of

942
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:43,520
announcement.
And then you start getting

943
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,600
people talking about is the top
end in gold, this type of deal a

944
00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:51,200
a company perhaps with a slight
change in tax silver to to gold,

945
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,640
that type of thing.
I'm not sure if you've had the

946
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,680
chance to to study this one in
in detail, but you being in in

947
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,440
North America as well familiar
with the the register and parts

948
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,600
of it, I'm sure.
What was your take on on the

949
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,880
deal and your reaction to it?
Yeah.

950
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:05,440
Well, I know both companies
actually.

951
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:08,760
So cores run by, you know, Mitch
Krebs who who was on the NMA

952
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:10,400
board with me.
So I've known him for a long

953
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,880
period of time.
New Gold.

954
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,160
I do know those assets detour We
we did look at buying them

955
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:20,760
actually they had a a pretty
challenged startup at Rainy

956
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:25,800
River.
I think Mr. Market doesn't like

957
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,200
that deal as you say it it it
the tape was down pretty

958
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:34,520
convincingly and I think it's
continued to be down and core

959
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,160
has for a very long period of
time, you know, sort of been in

960
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,200
the wilderness, you know, like
it's sort of it struggled for a

961
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,120
long time.
They've they've they're making,

962
00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:46,200
you know, $50 silver.
They're making a squillion

963
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:52,000
dollars of free cash now.
And it's been either them or

964
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,960
Heckler has been the way in, in,
in let's call it safe North

965
00:53:54,960 --> 00:54:01,120
America to to play silver.
Yeah, it does feel a bit top of

966
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,400
the market sort of to me, you
know, because the mine life like

967
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,440
you got new aft and they don't
own all of you've got Rainy

968
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,720
River, which, you know, has been
a bit of a challenge, relatively

969
00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:13,240
short mine life.
Still, it seemed like a lot.

970
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,880
You know, you've got A and
again, I haven't looked at the

971
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,280
deck in detail.
I'm sure somewhere in there

972
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,160
someone's put the word
synergies.

973
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:24,800
We're going to save this amount
of money on synergies.

974
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,160
The minute I see synergies, if I
do a deal, when the vendor

975
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,360
starts banging on about
synergies, I sort of try.

976
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,080
And because usually I'm selling
so I don't get to control the

977
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:35,440
narrative, but I'm usually
trying to get them to remove the

978
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,520
word synergies as to the reason
why they bought my company off

979
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,800
me.
So yeah, look, that one looked

980
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,400
pretty toppy.
You know, not not great assets.

981
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,200
Everything looks good at $4000
gold, right?

982
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:52,680
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I mean, yeah, the the

983
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,320
the market reaction like when
you when you have the, you know,

984
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:00,480
the type trail off in the way it
has does that like, you know,

985
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:03,720
sometimes that leads to a whole
plethora of different, different

986
00:55:03,720 --> 00:55:06,360
scenarios and sometimes, you
know, the companies themselves

987
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:07,640
become in play to other
companies.

988
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,280
Do you think that that's a
possibility here?

989
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,360
Well, it can put you in play,
there's no doubt about that.

990
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,720
The break fee is not enormous on
it.

991
00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:20,960
I can't remember the exact
number, but it wasn't, it wasn't

992
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:25,200
egregious.
And, and, and look, the one

993
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,680
thing I would say talking to,
I've been spending a fair bit of

994
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:31,080
time in Toronto and talking to,
to, to bankers in Perth as well,

995
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:36,680
is with the unrealized gains,
all these gold and silver CEO

996
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:40,320
company CEOs are on, everyone's
doing the dance, looking to get

997
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,320
off the trade, right.
And so, you know, talking to

998
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,960
bankers, there's been, there's
been, this is quite comedic

999
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,520
discussions where people are
doing mergers.

1000
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,920
You can't, you know, most of
mergers of equals because you

1001
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,000
can't put a premium on for the
most part anymore.

1002
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,080
And it's like, well, no, I think
you should run it.

1003
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,200
You're a better CEO.
No, no, I think you should run

1004
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,520
it because everyone just
actually out and get the hell

1005
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:05,280
out of dodge, right, So it could
put them in play.

1006
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:09,120
I'm not sure someone would come
over the top at that price for

1007
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:13,040
new gold.
The other angle there, I'm

1008
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:16,920
curious to hear your take on
Mick, is, is your, your

1009
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,200
shareholders being aware of what
you're doing, being aware of

1010
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,360
your intention to, to do a deal
when they, when they spit the

1011
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,240
dummy like this after you do a
deal.

1012
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,800
Is that a bit of a sign that you
you perhaps haven't signalled as

1013
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,400
well as you could have that
you're out on the hunt looking

1014
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:31,720
to do deals and that sort of
thing?

1015
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,680
Yep, you, you know, there's a
fine line between obviously

1016
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:38,960
crossing them.
So.

1017
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,560
So again, on the, you know, if I
take the Mac transaction for

1018
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:45,480
argument's sake, and this is
public, it's in the scheme

1019
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,440
agreement, you know, Harmony
required us to have got sort of,

1020
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:53,440
you know, relatively soft or
weak voting intention statements

1021
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:55,680
out of 20% of my register ex
Glencore.

1022
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:01,800
And so we put a fair bit of
thought into who we crossed and

1023
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:06,760
when because obviously, you
know, you know, the market, some

1024
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,560
of the guys like you, you cross
them, they can't help

1025
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,720
themselves, right?
And so, so like for us, we did

1026
00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:18,000
cross the, the 20% that we
needed or 25 and, and got 20% by

1027
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:23,360
the day.
Again, when I sold detour to

1028
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:27,640
Kirkland, you know, they were
down 20% on the day of

1029
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,800
announcement because, you know,
literally my stock had doubled

1030
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,440
in seven months.
Then they paid a 48% premium and

1031
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,520
they had the hydrate Fosterville
mine and we were running a .9

1032
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,200
grams gold, you know relatively
low cost but you know very

1033
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,280
different thing.
And their CEO depending on which

1034
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,200
version of version of the
litigation transcript you

1035
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:53,120
believed had or had not told
investors that he would not buy

1036
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,400
a low grade thing six weeks
beforehand.

1037
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:01,480
And so you know, perhaps could
have could have dealt with that

1038
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,520
a bit better.
So in this one, you know, yeah,

1039
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:06,800
they probably could have
signaled to the market like, you

1040
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,640
know, we got criticized a bit at
Mac a bit for sort of

1041
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,120
telegraphing that we might be
looking to buy stuff, right?

1042
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,720
And it was like, yeah, but if
I'm getting on buy something for

1043
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,840
a billion dollars, I can't be
telling you a week before that

1044
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:20,520
we're never going to buy another
asset, right?

1045
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,600
You've sort of there's a very
fine balance between laying the

1046
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,920
bread crumbs, you know, without
having you trade come issue all

1047
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,160
the time, right?
Or in in that case, sell core

1048
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:36,160
buy buy new gold, right?
Yep, the you know, another case

1049
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:40,040
of silver company making a
squillion dollars right now at

1050
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,920
$50 silver Fresnelo and they've
they've expressed their

1051
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,000
squillion dollar profits by
buying probe gold.

1052
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,600
So venturing venturing into into
Canada, 24% premium.

1053
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:55,160
Interesting, interesting kind of
territory here.

1054
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:59,960
You know, proximate to AG Nico's
home ground in in many respects.

1055
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:05,400
Sweet deal or sour deal, Mick?
I, I, well, again, Mr. Market

1056
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:07,800
hasn't vomited on this one quite
so much.

1057
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:14,560
And it is cash, which I sort of
again tends to tell you that

1058
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:17,120
you're getting closer to that
midnight, you know, when people

1059
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:19,600
start, you know, spending all
their cash because they've sort

1060
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,120
of got nothing else better to do
with it.

1061
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:23,360
And I've been a beneficiary of
that a few times.

1062
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:28,880
So I'm not complaining.
You know, I think this one, it

1063
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:33,200
does sort of geographically
spread their risk a little bit

1064
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,800
for them.
You know, it is in Agnico's, you

1065
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:40,360
know, backyard.
You'd have to imagine Agnico.

1066
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,240
I've looked at it.
Is there an interlocker risk

1067
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:43,880
there?
Again, I did have a look at the

1068
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,480
break fee.
I think it was like 30 million

1069
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,920
Canadians.
It's not a, it's not like, you

1070
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:50,120
know, that's when you do a deal,
right?

1071
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:51,520
You're always looking at what's
the break fee?

1072
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:57,760
What's the so, you know, again,
this sort of to me looks a bit

1073
00:59:57,760 --> 00:59:59,880
like a sort of slightly more
smarter.

1074
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:07,280
You know, deal and I don't think
this will take too long to

1075
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,760
close, but you know, you'd be
interested to see whether

1076
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:12,800
Agnico.
Agnico's not really got a

1077
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,320
history of going aggressive on
things, but it is in their

1078
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:18,280
backyard and.
They often wait for for

1079
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,560
something to be in play where,
you know, someone else sets the

1080
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,400
floor block price and then they
then they move up and to your

1081
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:27,480
point on on, you know,
management sitting on pretty

1082
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,080
substantial unrealized gains
given the bull market we're in,

1083
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:33,600
I wonder if wonder if probe was
maybe maybe just just trying to

1084
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,120
field out someone to set that
floor price because they were,

1085
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:38,920
you know, pretty damn keen to to
to sell.

1086
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:41,200
Who knows they.
Might not have been Robinson

1087
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:47,120
Caruso in doing that either.
Like as we all know, you know,

1088
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:50,400
once we signed our agreement,
we, we, we had a no shop, no

1089
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,000
talk clause.
But you can be rest assured that

1090
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:57,600
we ran a very full process.
And if you got nothing to do on

1091
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:01,280
a Sunday night and you read our
circular, you will see that up

1092
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:04,120
until an hour before we went
into the board meeting to agree

1093
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,320
to sell the company, we were
talking to the other, another

1094
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,280
company, you know, with their
full team trying to get a, a

1095
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:12,080
competing bid into the market,
right.

1096
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,240
I'll have to check that one out.
I usually like those circular

1097
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,400
stick, they're good.
Should we wrap it there with

1098
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:21,160
some hidden gems guys?
Let's do it mate.

1099
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:24,760
What do you got for us?
I have got a a book that I am

1100
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,160
enjoying started reading.
It's been doing the rounds a

1101
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:29,720
bit, but it's called breakneck
about the, the kind of

1102
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:33,440
differences in the, the Chinese
way of doing things in the, in

1103
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,600
the US way of, of doing things.
So that one, that one's pretty

1104
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,040
interesting.
And another one 1929, also quite

1105
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:43,400
popular by Andrew Ross Sorkin,
bitter reflection on, on the,

1106
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,960
you know, one of the greatest
financial crashes we've ever

1107
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:50,120
seen in in human history.
So a bit of reading for for

1108
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:52,600
those that are so inclined.
Mick, have you got anything

1109
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,600
standing out to your podcast
holiday spot that you might be

1110
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:58,760
taking in the in the next few
days with your your hard earned

1111
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:00,880
break or or gadget or something
sticking out to you?

1112
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:06,240
I I'll, I'll keep quiet on my
holiday locations, but 1929, I

1113
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:08,080
literally just bought a copy of
it yesterday.

1114
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:10,080
Nice.
The interest.

1115
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:13,000
So, so an observation I've got
like, you know, I spend a lot of

1116
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:14,880
time in the US.
I've just been up there again

1117
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:21,240
now in, you know, I can't get my
head around the fact that the US

1118
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:23,120
government's been shut for 35
days.

1119
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:27,000
There's 42,000,000 on food,
people on food stamps in the US

1120
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,000
that just cut out on the 1st of
November.

1121
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,360
I've never, I don't think I've
ever seen so much construction

1122
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,320
going on in Miami and Dallas
where I've been in the last week

1123
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:40,360
and yet and the stock market
keeps going up and up record

1124
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:42,520
highs every day.
I can't quite get my head around

1125
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:44,560
it.
I guess if I could, I, I, I

1126
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:48,200
wouldn't be working anymore.
But that's my take away from the

1127
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:52,200
week is that, is that the US
just continues to power on.

1128
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,800
Like I think in Dallas yesterday
I saw more construction in in

1129
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,240
the day than I would have seen
in Perth in the last five years.

1130
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,440
Well, my my hidden gem might
answer the question that you've

1131
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:02,640
you've got on your mind.
There.

1132
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:06,760
That's the latest the latest
article from Ray Dalio titled

1133
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:12,720
Running it Hot into a Bubble.
A bit a bit for all of us to

1134
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:15,280
think about in there.
Mick, thanks a bunch for for

1135
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:18,720
joining us on on Money of mine.
Fantastic to to learn about your

1136
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,800
journey and get your take on on
everything happening in the

1137
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:22,200
mining world.
So I really appreciate it.

1138
01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:24,120
Right.
Thanks, Gav.

1139
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:24,920
How?
About that mate.

1140
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,120
There we go mate, one of the one
of the most experienced sort of

1141
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:31,080
guys in in the industry.
Fantastic to to chat and get

1142
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:34,280
some interesting takes on almost
every commodity under the sun

1143
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:36,000
jurisdictions all around the
world.

1144
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,320
So yeah, that was that was
fantastic mate and all made

1145
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:41,640
possible by our fantastic
partners in the show Sand big

1146
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:45,040
ground support also got the guys
at Introlinks supporting us.

1147
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:47,600
Check them out.
And last but not least, focus

1148
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,360
the platform by market tech
Hudaru.

1149
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,360
Now remember, I'm an idiot.
JD is an idiot.

1150
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:56,760
If you thought any of this was
anything other than

1151
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,440
entertainment, you're an idiot
and you need to read out a

1152
01:03:59,440 --> 01:03:59,960
disclaimer.