Mastering the Lassonde Curve’s Valley of Despair (Rick Squire)

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Yeah, I'll tell you a funny
story.

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I went on on, on on the site
view set.

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And, you know, Tim's there and
then his brother's the CEO.

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And I'm like, oh, I wouldn't say
it's a red flag, but we're

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always a bit cautious about
that.

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And then we drive up onto the
ROM pad and he starts giving

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some guy up on the ROM pad a bit
of lip over the radio.

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And I'm like, geez, you've been
a bit rough with one of your

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workers.
And he turns and goes, Oh yeah,

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that's my dad.
Righto buddy Waters.

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There's bloody fun interviews
galore this week, just like

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there's as many fun interviews
as frigging that ground sport

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variations you can get from
Sandvik Ground Sport that's

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they're everywhere, They're
buddy JD Trav test.

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What are the different types of
ground support?

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You have learnt this over our
journey.

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This is a trick question.
There's only one bolt.

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There's only one, and it's it's
Sandvik.

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Just Samvik, Yeah.
The kings of the industry.

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Got out of that.
Funny world didn't.

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You right.
So if you want split sets, mesh

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POSI, mix bolts, MDX bolts,
dynamic support, static support,

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friction support, whatever you
need, Savvy Ground support is

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the only bloody name you need to
remember to supply the whole

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thing.
They keep you feeling

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comfortable mate, keep you
feeling safe and just like this,

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this bloke here, Mr. Rick
Squire, just makes you feel

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comfortable when you're talking
to him, mate, I.

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Liked his top five.
He's like different to the, it's

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not early stage exploration.
He's like he's punting on the

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risky part of the Lausanne
curve.

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Is that that's what I took,
which I like.

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Like like the way you're
thinking.

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Yeah, Yeah, that's what I'm sort
of talking.

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About big operational leverage
in, in some of his big holdings

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in, in a, in a, in rising
markets.

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Yeah, that's, that's, that's
yeah, a fair observation, I

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reckon.
And he's got yeah, really

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interesting thought process and
how he's how he's allocating the

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funds at at Acorn and big
exposure to gold right now.

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So the gold, the gold bulls get
lots out of this chat.

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Yeah, let's cut to it, Rick
Squire.

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Here we go right now, buddy.
Borders, we've go, Jeez, we

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haven't had John for a like a
full Rick interview for a bloody

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very bloody long time.
Rick Rick Squire from acorn

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capital managers, the next Gen.
resources fund, which doesn't

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just invest in next Gen.
It is the next Gen. with AT.

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How are you mate?
Yeah.

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Well, thanks.
Where should we start, guys?

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All right, I reckon.
I reckon.

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Rare earths, Rick.
Rare Earths.

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And that were you were thinking,
Rick, where to start?

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Oh, it's a fantastic idea to
start.

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You've spoken about rare earths
in the past.

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You mentioned them when we had
you on for the convictions pick

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not too long ago, Rick, and I'm
keen to get you the your latest

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take because even when we spoke
like Maddie referenced a long

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while back, you were you were
excited about rare earths.

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You were you were talking up the
the kind of de globalisation, if

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you will, and the fragility of
the the supply chain.

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What are your latest thoughts?
Yeah, look, I think what what's

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coming out of out of the US in
terms of the the tension with

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China, it's it's really
highlighting the the impact of

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particular commodities and like
the rare earths and it's that

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real strategic importance which
is the the key.

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So then for investors, what the,
what, what you've got to think

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about is, OK, is it the biggest
project?

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Is it the highest grade?
What, what's actually going to

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be able to fill this gap?
And to do that, I think you've

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got to take this big step back
and, and say, well, why, why

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does China actually dominate the
market?

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You know, what, what happened to
allow that to, to, to occur?

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And what it is, it's actually a
geological bias.

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You know, there was a back in
1970, the Chinese hardly

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produced any rare earths at all,
but they made this discovery of

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these clay deposits that
contained rare earths that were

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really easy to, to, to mine
there and to define the

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resource, really easy to mine,
very simple and, and low CapEx

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to actually extract the rare
earths.

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And so, so that, that totally
transformed the, the industry.

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And then from there they went,
went downstream because, you

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know, they captured that, that,
that front of the, the, the

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processing route that they, they
then went downstream and there's

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that, that dominate the, the
production of the magnets and

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everything from from there.
So if anyone's wanting to, to,

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to break into the market, you
know, you've got to, you've got

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to look back and say, well, do
you want to start with a, you

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know, a really large and, and
complex and extremely expensive

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processing plant and, and try to
break in on, on something that

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could be, you know, 10 or 15
years of commissioning?

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Or do you want to start with a
project that's actually, you

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know, a reasonable CapEx, easy
to define that resource to

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extract the metal and then to
slowly go through that process

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of, of, of, of creating value.
And, and, and that's where I, I

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think, you know, investors have
got to be be wary of some of

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the, the claims that are out
there because it's a, an

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exciting market, great place to
be.

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But geez, you could definitely
back the wrong on horse in a in

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a pretty exciting race.
One of the one of the like

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lessons in in our head from from
many rarest discussions is to

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back the incumbents because of
the huge barriers to entry to

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actually, you know, get
somewhere meaningful in that

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industry.
You, you, you have a, a

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preferred, you know, type of
investing of actually backing

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earlier stage projects.
What gives you the confidence to

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back them instead of incumbents?
Yeah, sure.

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So then then we've got to think
about what, what is it that's

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changing in the rare earth
market?

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And certainly, you know, Linus
is the the incumbent.

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They're they're they're up and
going, they're producing, but

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they're producing predominantly
neodymium and presbymium.

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So, so they're doing the ND PR,
there's not, you know, large

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amounts of the disposing and
turbium.

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Now they are trying to move into
that part of the the field and

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there's, you know, they're
building a plant in Texas, but

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you know, they're they're still
along that development pathway.

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And so, so then you've got to
say while what, what, what's

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actually creating this tension
at the moment?

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And certainly the, the supply of
ND PR is an important part of

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that.
But if we, we want to look at

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robotics, which is really, you
know, the exciting part of the

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future.
And, and that for, for the

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robotics, you need the
dysprosium and, and turbium,

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because when you mix those two
rare earths in into the mix,

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that's when you produce the
really high strength magnets.

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And so four years ago, there was
a little bit of tension around

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that, but it was, you know,
there was a realisation that,

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you know, in the big wind
turbines, you can get away

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without it.
It's not, it's not absolutely

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essential for, for, for those
wind turbines.

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And, and you know, there's even,
you know, talk about not using

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them in, in electric vehicles,
but in robotics, it's actually

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very difficult to, to get away
from it.

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You need something that's small,
condensed, really strong.

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And, and that's what they're
disposing and Turbian does.

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So then if you, you, you want to
find that this Linus is not

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really the best company for it.
And, and yes, they do have some

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in, in, in at, at Mount Weld,
but it's not an area where

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they've mined and, and produce
large volumes of that material

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today.
So, so it's, you know, they're,

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yes, they are the incumbents,
but they're slowly moving into

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that field.
And this is an opportunity where

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I think, you know, some of the
the smaller nimble companies

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have got the potential to to, to
steal the March on even

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companies like Linus.
Look at looking at, yeah, I

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don't know if this relates or
not.

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I might be going off on a
tangent here, but maybe I've

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just picked it.
One of the other top five

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holdings, Petrotherm, is, you
know, based around titanium.

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Is this all part of your
robotics theory that you've got

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a thing about the growth of
robotics and the need for

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titanium heavy rare earths?
Or if I'm not even close?

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Now, look, I'm very
sophisticated investor, but

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there was a lot of sort of dumb
ass luck in, in the petrol

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discovery that, you know, we, we
actually went into them when

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they had a rare earth project,
but it didn't, didn't play out

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and you know, it didn't, didn't
match up to what we we had.

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And, and, and so I went out to
sight with, with Peter Reid and

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he showed me his copper projects
and I thought, oh, she said

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fantastic.
He had some, you know, they were

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picking up ground and, and you
know, to a lot of credit to

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Peter and the, the, the team at
Petrotham and they, well, when,

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when things were tough in the
space, they were still picking

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up ground.
They were, you know, doing deals

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with neighbors.
They were, you know, and they

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identified this, this project
area in SA not far from Coober

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Pedy.
And, and then they went out and

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did some field work and that's
when they discovered the, the

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titanium.
And the really exciting thing

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about Petrotherm I think is it's
not just a titanium because

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there was some, you know, really
large low grade titanium

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projects, but they again, they
five really big CapEx and a lot

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of technical and financial risk
around developing them.

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Whereas what they've got is an
unusual mineral sand project

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which has got these titanium
bearing minerals, which is well

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rutile and they call it pseudo
rutile or leukoxine is the the

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mineral they're after.
And, and that, that, or they

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have those deposits, they have,
you know, unusually high

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concentrations of, of those, of
those minerals.

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And they're actually, you know,
a good grain size.

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You don't want them too large,
but you definitely don't want

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them too small because it's very
difficult to, to extract it.

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So, so they've discovered
something that's really

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exciting.
And that's why we, we continue

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to hold it as a large weight in
the portfolio that it's a, it's

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an unusually large, something
that has potentially be an

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unusually large deposit with,
you know, very high grades of,

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of mineral sands where the, the
grain size is the the perfect

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size for extracting out.
Now it's early days.

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There are obviously risks in, in
developing these projects, but,

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but that's something, you know,
we we're really excited about

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and, and, but it's, you know,
it's not picking the metal.

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It's more that, you know, that
opportunity came along, we saw

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it.
So we leveraged that and we've

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increased our our stake in the
company.

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It's got.
It's got.

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Favourable assemblies,
favourable met so far, new

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discovery, but, but it's kind of
the share price has been pretty,

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pretty stagnant for the, for,
for the year to date so far.

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You know, obviously the, the the
discovery made waves kind of

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late last year, but do you think
the market still doesn't quite

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understand it because it's a, a
niche like mineral that not

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everyone follows closely?
Yeah, I think that's definitely

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the case.
And, you know, some things take

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a little while to, to, to warm
up.

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And I think, you know, one of
the, the other challenges is,

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you know, sort of management is,
is at a, you know, a group of

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people are, you know, great
explorers and, and making that

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transition from exploration
through development is, is, is

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actually a, you know, a tricky
phase.

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And it's a, you know, it's, it's
a new learning curve for a lot

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of people.
And I think management

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acknowledges that they made some
mistakes early on, but there's

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an announcement today that just
Rob said it is joined as a, an

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executive director.
So he's, he's, you know, a great

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experience.
He he worked with MDL in, in

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mineral sands in, in, in Africa.
You know, it's very successful.

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And I think bringing someone
like on, like Rob on on board

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is, you know, you know, a great
part of recognising that

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00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,560
transition that, that Peter Reid
and the team were, were

221
00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:32,640
fantastic.
And I, I can't speak, you know,

222
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,560
high enough of Peter and the
chairman, Derek and, and Barry,

223
00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:39,920
the exploration geologist and
the, the other teams.

224
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:41,560
I think they've done a fantastic
job.

225
00:11:41,560 --> 00:11:43,840
And they'll, they'll continue to
stay with the company and, and

226
00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:45,880
work.
But I think there's a transition

227
00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,360
in that management skill and,
and then the communication and,

228
00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,080
and marking of that to the, to
the investment community.

229
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,120
And I think once they start to
pick up on that, you know, I

230
00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,520
think the momentum will come
back because the stock did get

231
00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,680
up to, it was just shy of $0.50
at one point in the, in, in the

232
00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:04,120
euphoria.
But yeah, it's stuck around

233
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,520
around $0.25 or thereabouts at
the moment.

234
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,240
How about if we we hone in on
some of the other rare earth

235
00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:10,840
names?
I know we'd spoken in the past

236
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,880
about meteoric what?
What are you thinking of the

237
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,400
Brazilian projects, the clay
projects in general, given they

238
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,360
had a real kick up on the back
of all this Trump news in the

239
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,680
past couple weeks and some of
the individual names there you

240
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,560
are you invested in in any of
them?

241
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,360
Yeah, I think, I think Meteoric
is a real, real stand out.

242
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,440
And again, it goes back to the
point I was mentioning earlier

243
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,560
that, you know, it's, it's good
to chase, you know, big and high

244
00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:39,000
grade deposits and, and you know
that they're, they're quite

245
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,520
exciting, But, but it's the
ability to get them into

246
00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,800
production in a reasonable time
frame and at a reasonable cost,

247
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,400
particularly for these juniors.
You know, so it's very difficult

248
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,280
for any junior to start a
project with a, a 1 billion, let

249
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,600
alone 1 1/2 or $2 billion CapEx.
You know, it's just, you know,

250
00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,040
it's, it's just just enormously
challenging.

251
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,840
And, and investors, the
investors you get in early are

252
00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:05,880
never the ones that, that, that
make the money.

253
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,000
So Linus is a good example of
that.

254
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,200
If you got into Linus at the
beginning, you wouldn't be a

255
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,400
happy camper today, even though
the, the, the, the company's in

256
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,000
the ASX 100.
So, so it's like, well, at what

257
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,560
point do you get in?
It was, well, you can get in

258
00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:22,960
early, but you've got to get
into those projects that can get

259
00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,480
into production with a
reasonable CapEx and can do it

260
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,680
quickly and can capture that
opportunity.

261
00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:31,520
And that's why I think, you
know, meteoric, you know, in the

262
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:36,000
space is, is a stand out because
you know, the grades, the, the

263
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,040
size of that, that, that
project, its ability to scale

264
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,000
and become a, you know, a really
dominant producer is, is really

265
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,600
exciting.
And I think, you know, it's

266
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,280
really got, it's really got the
potential to even challenge the,

267
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,320
the, the Chinese themselves at
their own game because it it's

268
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,960
so much higher grade than what
the Chinese have.

269
00:13:55,680 --> 00:14:00,040
Why, why has the, the, the one
producer that's emerged in

270
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,640
Brazil so far, Sierra Verde, the
like your private equity kind of

271
00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,640
mob that that started that?
Why have they encountered like

272
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,840
issues to date?
And, and would those issues be

273
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,480
applicable to Media Arc or are
you kind of, you know, pretty

274
00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,400
pretty comfortable that the
media Arc wouldn't have the same

275
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,680
issues?
Yeah, Yeah, good question, Trev.

276
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,920
One of the challenges, it's a, a
privately held company.

277
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,400
You don't see a lot of the, the,
the information on it.

278
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,040
But what what we know and we,
you know, I certainly look at

279
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,920
the information that that that
is available that, you know,

280
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,520
when they first started out,
they were trying an unusual

281
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,120
processing method to, to extract
the rarest.

282
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,720
There were problems with that.
They then had to revert, revert

283
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,880
to the, you know, more
conventional processing, you

284
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,840
know, that caused a few
challenges.

285
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,440
It's in an area of high rainfall
and and so, you know, processing

286
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,280
of the ore in that, in that
environment was challenges.

287
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,320
So they had a, you know, a
number of commissioning issues

288
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,760
and you know, you've got to be
very mindful of that.

289
00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,960
And, and again, it's like, you
know, it is a competitive market

290
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:02,960
and the Chinese aren't going to
give us, you know, a lot of help

291
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,160
if we're if we're trying to
dislodge their dominance from

292
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,440
that that industry.
So, so we need to, to look at

293
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:16,200
groups like this, Sara Verde
and, and, and the minds like

294
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,640
that and, and actually see what
we can learn from that.

295
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,720
But you know, I think, you know,
this is where we go back and you

296
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,040
say, well, you want to start up,
you know, not too big a scale,

297
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,800
but you want to sort of scale
that process so that if you do

298
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,600
have challenges, you're not
going to sort of blow up the the

299
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,680
shareholder base that you do,
you know, something basic, get

300
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,080
confident in doing that, then
scale or, or, or expand that

301
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,680
process from there.
What?

302
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,600
What's what's getting you
excited right now?

303
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:49,120
Talking to us.
No, exciting in terms of the,

304
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,880
the, the commodities, I think, I
think rare earths is, is

305
00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,600
certainly one obviously gold,
you can't go away from gold at

306
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,760
the moment.
And, but, but you know, if I

307
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,840
initially talk about
commodities, you know, gold I

308
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,960
think is really exciting.
You know, we've seen really

309
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,200
interesting development in the
gold space.

310
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,680
If you go back four years ago,
the gold price shot up and like

311
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,240
all boats rows, it didn't matter
whether you're a producer, a

312
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,720
developer, an explorer, everyone
went out.

313
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,560
Whereas what we've seen in the
the last 12 months is initially

314
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,080
it was the producers that ran
hard and normally that's what

315
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,440
happens in in a strong market.
And then you did, we came down

316
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,920
into the developers.
So we've seen great performance

317
00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,400
by companies like Mika.
And then then it's the earliest

318
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,360
stage explorers, you know,
companies with a mine, maybe

319
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,120
they need to do a bit of extra
work.

320
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:42,240
It's like the, you know, the
rocks, resources, the Warridars,

321
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,360
they're really starting to to to
come on on now.

322
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,960
But a lot of those explorers are
still languishing.

323
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,400
You know the small explorers,
they haven't quite got there

324
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,960
unless you're you're doing
something like a bright star,

325
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,880
which you know that there was a
Houdini act to pull off a

326
00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:01,040
three-way merger that was an
active genius to pull that off.

327
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,240
He's done that many deals, he
should be good at them by now,

328
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,960
yeah.
That's so, so, but it's like,

329
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,800
you know, we've seen groups like
that have done well, but you

330
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,160
know, a lot of a lot of the
other gold explorers really

331
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,839
haven't taken off.
It hasn't moved down to that,

332
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:18,000
that third part of the, the
cycle from the producers to the

333
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,359
developers all the way into the
explorers.

334
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,640
It's sort of hovering.
And part of the reason for that

335
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,000
is I think is you're seeing the
developers, they're actually

336
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,400
going through an expansion
phase.

337
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,560
Like even today with Westgold
talking about, you know,

338
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,680
expansion down at Higginsville
that, you know, suddenly, oh,

339
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,120
that producer becomes a, a, a
developer because they've got

340
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:41,520
this expansion pipeline and
they're thinking so, so, you

341
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,240
know, people start to factor in
that.

342
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,480
So why do I need to go into an
explorer if I can go into this

343
00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,880
producer that's going to expand
their own production?

344
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,840
So there's a lot of rotation
within that that part of the

345
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,120
market.
So outside of gold, I think

346
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:59,200
uranium's been really bashed up.
It's, you know, there's some,

347
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:03,320
you know, good opportunities.
I think Paladin certainly had

348
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,080
its challenges, but you know, it
got to that overpriced under

349
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,680
price.
Those really, you know, deeply

350
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,840
discount a price with his great
value crept in.

351
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,560
And then they they announced the
quarterly and it wasn't as bad

352
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,360
as people thought and I was a
bit concerned leading into it,

353
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:21,920
but on the announcement, you
know, got a lot of comfort.

354
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,840
Now they're not out of the woods
because they're still processing

355
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,880
a lot of low grade stockpiles.
And just because you have, you

356
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,120
know, a good week or a good
month on the on the low grade

357
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:34,320
doesn't mean that, you know,
next week or next month's going

358
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,280
to be good.
So there's some variability that

359
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,960
could come out on that.
The the risk that still remains.

360
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,680
Boss is looking well, it's you
know, I think Duncan and the

361
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,200
team have done a great job
there.

362
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,680
And then now you go into things
like Lotus that are coming up

363
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,840
and then outside of that rare
earths that we just talked about

364
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,280
domestic gas and then, you know,
copper, they're probably the

365
00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,880
preferred commodities.
I was looking at your top five

366
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,440
mate.
It's interesting and it's

367
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,240
probably different to a lot of a
lot of the funds we've talked

368
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,560
to.
Like you can sort of discount

369
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:11,720
Petrotherm as you said, that's
bloody not like don't undercall

370
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:13,040
yourself saying it was just
luck.

371
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,280
I'm sure there was a lot of
logic, but in terms of boss

372
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:21,080
maker, Pantoro and West Guild,
they're sort of the interesting

373
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,320
parts of the Lasong curve.
They're like they're either

374
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,920
ramping up or yet to sort of hit
the levels that the market is

375
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,040
expecting them to hit, which is
probably, you know, a different

376
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,440
stage to a lot of funds that we
talk about.

377
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:39,600
So, but I think you explained a
lot of it before.

378
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,560
Uranium is probably looking for
a bit of a rewrite, but things

379
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:47,080
like, you know Pantoro maker,
they sort of haven't makers in a

380
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,800
ramp up there in that little
fickly point you'd say take us

381
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,280
into that one.
Yeah, that's right.

382
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,880
So I actually went out to site
at Maker.

383
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,880
It's, you know, I, I think
that's really exciting that and

384
00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,000
that's the sort of opportunity
that we love at, at Acorn.

385
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,720
Because when it's through that
ramp up that it's actually quite

386
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,360
risky that you have, you know,
like a a Bellevue that really

387
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:12,560
struggled through the the ramp
up and you can, you know, lose a

388
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,960
lot of value.
You think of how much the share

389
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,880
price, how much the gold price
has gone up.

390
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,160
Up in the last 12 months and
their share price has gone from

391
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,720
essentially $2.00 to $1.00.
So you know it's not just it's

392
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:29,240
down 50%, but it's down 50% in a
in in a rising market and then

393
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,600
you so there is risk in that
ramp up is the the point I'm

394
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,400
making.
Then you look at a maker and you

395
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,680
know, where I was really
concerned was late last year we

396
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,600
went in the raise, I think there
was a raise in about September

397
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,040
and then there was another one
in early November when they took

398
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,560
out the, the debt.
And then what I was really

399
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,120
concerned about was when they
started the grade control

400
00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:55,000
drilling that, well, what if the
grade control, it doesn't

401
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,960
reconcile as well back to the
resource.

402
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,000
So when you go from the resource
model to the grade control

403
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,040
model, but but they've done some
drilling.

404
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,120
They've actually identified some
nice thick zones with, you know,

405
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:08,280
really good grades that are
sitting just outside of the pit.

406
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,520
And then the really exciting
thing for, for, for me, and I

407
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,480
don't think investors have, you
know, quite picked up on this,

408
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,960
is that the better grades are
actually in the oxide zone.

409
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,040
And so rather than just 18
months of oxide feed going into

410
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,000
that mill in the, in the, in
that, you know, the, the initial

411
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,600
year and a half of production
that you could actually extend

412
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,840
that oxide feed for two, maybe
even 2 1/2 years.

413
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,520
I don't know what the exact mine
plan looks like, but you know,

414
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,760
you, you could get 2 years plus
at higher grades and in the Oxo,

415
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,560
which is softer and faster
produced that, you know, there's

416
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:48,720
actually strong potential for,
for outperformance in the next

417
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,360
couple of years.
So that's the sort of

418
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,920
opportunity that, you know, I
really like when I'm looking

419
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:58,400
for, for, for those gold stocks
rather than just a steady state

420
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,360
producer.
And, you know, I think the

421
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:04,000
management team, you know,
they're, they're young, but

422
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,520
they're really hungry and, and,
and, and really enthusiastic.

423
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,120
And so it's a, you know, I, I
really like the, the, the team.

424
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,720
I like the project as it's
coming together and and you

425
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,760
know, that's again, that's the
sort of opportunity that we we

426
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,680
really like to to pursue at
ACORN.

427
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,720
Yeah, they're good, good for
costs as well 'cause they're

428
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,040
tired as the fishers are sold
them too, so those Davidson

429
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:27,240
follows.
So you know they won't be

430
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,160
spending money they don't need
to.

431
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:31,440
Yeah, I'll tell you a funny
story.

432
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,480
I went on on, on on the site
view set and, you know, Tim's

433
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,000
there and then his brother's the
CEO.

434
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,160
And I'm like, oh, I wouldn't say
it's a red flag, but we're

435
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:39,560
always a bit cautious about
that.

436
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,840
And then we drive up onto the
ROM pad and he starts giving

437
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,320
some guy up on the ROM pad a bit
of lip over the radio.

438
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,400
And I'm like, Gee, she'll be a
bit rough with one of your

439
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,240
workers.
And he turns and goes, oh, yeah,

440
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:55,560
that's my dad.
So he's giving a dull man a hard

441
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:56,720
time.
So what's your dad doing?

442
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,400
He goes, oh, he's a retired
engineer, but we needed someone

443
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,400
to look after the civil.
So he's coming in and he's like

444
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,400
got the whole place under,
under, under, go.

445
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,680
So it's a real family affair,
but it's not usually you get

446
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,840
really concerned about that.
But I think it's, yeah, I think

447
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,840
this is one of the cases where,
you know, these these guys

448
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,880
really want to make it succeed.
And so they've they've wheeled

449
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,520
the old man out of retirement
whip on him.

450
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,160
So there was, there was, there
was no favouritism from what I

451
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:24,920
heard was going on over the
radio.

452
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,640
Look, if he's make a metals bet
comes off, they're going to need

453
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,800
a grounded camp.
Paul Natali.

454
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,160
You might have to all be
hustling you on price, but Paul

455
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,640
Natali is the man to talk
business about getting a

456
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,920
grounded camp expanding the
bloody handy.

457
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,920
Well the the Maker Theara player
mate.

458
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,120
They could put a centralized
camp in for all these Maker

459
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:51,440
Theara operations build and
operate.

460
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:52,840
You're on something.
Grounded.

461
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,200
That might be the best.
Way less capital risk for all

462
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,080
these mining companies up there.
Just Cherokee by night.

463
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,240
Interesting.
And Rick in our conversation

464
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,520
speaks about attracting workers
in this sort of moment in time.

465
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,120
One way to attract top quality
talent is to have a grounded

466
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:10,920
camp.
Yes, it's the village that

467
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,240
really pulls you together mate.
If you cut, if you got

468
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,640
facilities to do stuff after
after work, you got one.

469
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,680
A wonderful gym, a great rec
center, all.

470
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,600
Of your own villa, essentially
we've.

471
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,760
Spoke about here.
Now let's just think about this.

472
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,720
We've spoken about non core
assets.

473
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,280
There could be someone might
have a non core asset up in

474
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,440
Makothea you could sell to
Grounded which Grounded could

475
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,720
then build on and operate their
own camp.

476
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,320
Monetize your tenements that
have no minerals on them by

477
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,400
selling it to Grounded.
Get in contact with Paul Natali.

478
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,160
Don't think too much about it,
just do it.

479
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,440
Just ring Paul Natali for a
grounded camp or if you want to

480
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,360
sell him a tenement.
Go grounded building hotels in

481
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:49,560
remote Western.
Australia, right?

482
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,360
It's like Trump's what was it?
The Riviera of bloody?

483
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:56,920
What was it?
The Gaza?

484
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,480
Gaza Riviera, The Makethera
Riviera, right?

485
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,600
Let's get back to it.
That's, that's hilarious, Rick,

486
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,800
if, if we zoom out at the, the
gold industry, I'm keen to, to

487
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,120
look at this because you wrote
this paper a couple months back.

488
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:15,840
I think about how the evolution
of bull market seized the

489
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,400
producers first rewarded and
then on to the developers and on

490
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,160
to the, the smaller caps.
But we look at your first, your

491
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,280
top five holdings there, West
gold producing, Pantoro

492
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:31,240
producing, scaling up and and
making that sort of ramp up kind

493
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,320
of area.
What, what sort of marks would

494
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,000
you give to the ASICS midcap
Goldies on how they've been able

495
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,280
to convert this gold price into
cash flow to start with?

496
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,920
Yeah, it's a look, it's, it's a
really good question.

497
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,600
If you go, if you go back again
four years, you know, that gold

498
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,400
bull run, you know, gold ran
really hard, but the cost base

499
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,960
came up faster than the gold
price was rising.

500
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,680
And and that's where a lot of
investors, you know, got got,

501
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,040
got burned.
They're going well, the gold

502
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,200
price went up and but no one
actually made any money.

503
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,600
And so, so I think, you know,
that hesitation is, is, is, is,

504
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,840
is still in the market that,
well, four years ago, no one

505
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,560
really made money out of that
gold bull bull run.

506
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,560
Why?
Why is it different this time?

507
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,720
And well, I think it's different
for a couple of reasons.

508
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,960
You know, the gold price is
strong, but we don't have that

509
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,160
that pressure on the on on on
the base.

510
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,880
But I think what's happening in
the market is still that normal

511
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,440
progression.
And some of those midcap guys

512
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,840
have been caught out by that.
So a good, good example is you,

513
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,600
you go and have a look at, you
know, Perseus.

514
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,800
So I'll have a look at Northern
Star up until a month ago, both

515
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,720
companies, they have a look at
their share price.

516
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,200
They peaked in about September
or October last year and then

517
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,960
they went sideways.
And that's the point that the

518
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,000
makers and the pantoros came
along and then they filled that

519
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,960
gap.
So that was a beautiful example

520
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,360
of that, that that rewriting.
Now in the last month, there's

521
00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:03,280
been, you know, a bit of, you
know, general cycling into gold.

522
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,000
They're going into the big
liquid names, you know, the into

523
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,400
Northern Star, it's picked up,
you know, we've seen Perseus

524
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,640
have another run, but you know,
on some positive news as well.

525
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,040
So, so there is, you know,
broadly speaking, if you take

526
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,600
out that last month, which there
were some different factors

527
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:26,600
involved that that's the cycle
that you go into those big guys

528
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,320
at the front and then you move
into the smaller 1.

529
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,160
So it's not so much since that
the, the, some of these mid

530
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,480
tiers are, are doing it wrong.
It's actually that their race is

531
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,640
actually run.
And now it's actually time for,

532
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,160
for the next guys.
And the only way that they, the

533
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,280
mid, those mid caps can, you
know, bring some life.

534
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,640
I think we can bring the life
into their, their, their, their

535
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,480
share price is to do a bit like
what West Gold's doing, which

536
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,240
is, you know, show the path for,
for production, for expansion,

537
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,120
that you can do it without a big
capital raise with a modest

538
00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:02,600
CapEx that you can fund
yourself, that you can do that

539
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,400
in a reasonable time frame,
really take advantage of that

540
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,680
gold price and run and, and
that's the way that they can

541
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:10,880
inject some life back into their
share price.

542
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:15,480
Both both Pantora and West Gold
in in the cohort of of gold

543
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,160
producers out there maybe on the
higher end of of course.

544
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,240
Are you, do you see them as
favourable right now in the

545
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,040
cycle because they have higher
torque as the gold price

546
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,400
appreciates than your than your
lower cost producers out there

547
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,520
too?
Yeah, that's definitely the

548
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,280
case.
And so with that comes risk.

549
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,120
So what if the gold price, yeah,
pulls back a bit?

550
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,960
The ones that are going to fall
the hardest will be those guys.

551
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,680
So you you are taking risk
around that leverage.

552
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,600
But that's where the the, the,
the, the opportunity is.

553
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,840
And again, it's like, well, you
could have gone for the safe

554
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,720
things like in last October and
sat in, in Northern Star and

555
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,200
and, and, and Perseus, but then,
you know, the, the stock price

556
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,200
went sideways.
Sure, it traded up and down a

557
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,240
bit, but it really didn't,
didn't progress in that phase.

558
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,000
But these other guys that, like
you say, travel with, with the,

559
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,280
the, the leverage, you know,
that, that more risk in the,

560
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:10,280
their ability to deliver.
That's where the, the gains

561
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,920
were, were made.
So then that's, that's my, my

562
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,840
job as an investor at Acorn is
we're looking for those and say,

563
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,840
well, where are they most likely
to, to do that and to achieve

564
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,120
what it is they, they, they
think they can.

565
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,760
And, and so West Gold's just an
example.

566
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,480
We weren't in West Gold until
early this year when they had

567
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,640
the bad well for the bad
quarter.

568
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,360
But you know, Wayne came in my
office.

569
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,400
We, we, we had a chat.
He showed me the presentation.

570
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,760
He said, look, this is what
happened in, in, in October,

571
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:46,720
because I said you came in my
office in early November and it

572
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,680
was like you said everything was
going well.

573
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,560
And then I look at the
performance you did and he

574
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,840
showed me the breakdown.
He goes, yeah, well, October was

575
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,800
a good month.
He said November and December

576
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,680
were terrible months.
But he, and these are the

577
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,080
reasons and he explained what
the reasons were for the, the

578
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,640
poor performance.
And it was like, well, yeah, I

579
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,320
get it.
So that's something that you can

580
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,640
actually turn around.
And so and that's that's why we

581
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,400
went in.
We went in at that price.

582
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,080
I think it was oversold at that
point and it went up.

583
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,920
Now we've taken a bit of profit
since that time, but that's a

584
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,520
really nice opportunity where,
you know, they, they, they had

585
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:26,200
a, a few challenges, but they
weren't that they weren't.

586
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,440
So when the sort of challenges
that leads lead to a major

587
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,360
downgrade for, for the, for the
operation or it's more OK, there

588
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,800
might be some revisions around
the edges, but that's already

589
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,200
factored in by the, the fall in
the share price.

590
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,360
Now it's a matter of, well, is
it oversold in the case of

591
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:44,640
Westfield?
Yes, it was.

592
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:49,080
So we got in, leveraged it up.
We rode it from I think it was

593
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,320
like 230 to $3.00 or
thereabouts.

594
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,480
And then, you know, we'll pull
back and look for the next

595
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:54,880
opportunity.
But you've got to be nimble on

596
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,120
those things.
And when you see them, yeah, you

597
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,920
go hard, take the gain and then
you just balance, rebalance A

598
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:03,600
portfolio at the appropriate
time.

599
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,920
Would you, would you welcome a a
merger between those two

600
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,640
portfolio companies?
Good question.

601
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,560
Yeah, Look, if it, if it makes
sense, then yeah, we're, we're,

602
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,400
we're all, all all those things,
but doesn't make sense.

603
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,400
Well, I, I think, well, it's a
good look.

604
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:26,720
I, I think I think Northern's
like a really exciting area.

605
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,520
You know, if you go back there,
the history of that region, even

606
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,880
back in the days when Western
mining ran it, it was like

607
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,520
Western mining and they had this
funny joint venture with a

608
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:41,440
company called Central Northern
Gold, which it was, it was a it

609
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,440
was a separately listed company.
And I know this because when I

610
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,520
was like about, I think I was
like 16 or 18, my parents said

611
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,680
you can buy three lots of
shares.

612
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,920
And someone told me, I don't
even know who it was, told me

613
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,680
buy Central Norseman.
And I've got ANZ and, and South

614
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,720
Australian brewing, which I'm
Coopers, I like beer.

615
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,840
So I said I'll have that one dad
could get a bank stop.

616
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,360
And then I got this dodgy
Central Norseman and within six

617
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,040
months of having it, it had gone
down about 70%.

618
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,960
So holy crap, investment but
eventually went up and I made

619
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,560
some money, but I had to hang
around for about 5 years to make

620
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,120
money.
But anyway, that's, that's

621
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,040
enough of that digression.
But anyway, they had it.

622
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,720
The problem is because they're
in this silly joint venture, no

623
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,520
one wanted to spend money
because it was like 4951% joint

624
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,200
venture.
So, so for decades there was no

625
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,640
money spent on it.
But now finally Pantora's got

626
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,680
this really big drill program.
It's like talked about 80,000,

627
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:43,720
but it's probably 100,000 meters
of the drilling over the year

628
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,960
that could be done in there and
you know, doing some fantastic

629
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,800
targets.
So it just hasn't had the

630
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,240
drilling into what are some
really exciting projects.

631
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,040
So if you drill that thing out,
if you have enough capital and

632
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,480
you can focus on that, that's
going to be exciting.

633
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:04,480
You know what do they need to
merge well with the gold price

634
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,440
where it is?
Maybe he doesn't, but if Westco

635
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,840
wants to pay a gigantic premium
and I'm I'm quite happy for him

636
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,720
to take it with.
With because on the day we're

637
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,760
recording today, Pantoros
quarterlies just came out.

638
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,160
So they're about, I think
they're about 2000 oz short on

639
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,280
quarterly guidance what they
needed.

640
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:31,360
So the stock was down 10%.
So with between OK Scotia and

641
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,680
then probably like the rehab and
Bullen, I guess how confident

642
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,120
are you in because it's going
underground feed didn't really

643
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,920
hit the grade mark this quarter,
didn't look like I haven't had.

644
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,320
I had a quick look, but I guess
how confident are you on the

645
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:49,560
consistency of their ore bodies
and delivering the weight?

646
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,160
That's that's the key question,
Maddie, in in terms of what, you

647
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,480
know, are they going to be able
to, to deliver?

648
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,720
And, and that's something that,
you know, when I talk to to to

649
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,640
Paul, it's always, you know,
getting confident around that.

650
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,000
And the match quarter was always
going to be a difficult one in

651
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,440
terms of, you know, where they,
where they're at, you know,

652
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,120
accessing some of the stockpile
material, you know, the, you

653
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,080
know, obviously the Stokes
haven't developed, haven't,

654
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,120
haven't they haven't produced
the grades that they that, that

655
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,120
they should have.
But you know, looking into the

656
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,960
any, you can see it in the
forecast for the June quarter.

657
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:28,520
The June quarters was always
going to be better and the March

658
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,440
1 was always going to be a bit
touch and go.

659
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,120
And unfortunately it, it under
delivered.

660
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,840
But you know, we're, we're, I've
still, even though we'll take a

661
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,639
shorter term view in terms of 6
or 12 months.

662
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:44,199
I don't worry about things too
much on a a quarterly basis that

663
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:47,840
I, you know, I really, I always
expected this to be a soft

664
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,600
quarter, but you know, I think
with, you know, down 10%, that's

665
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,239
actually a pretty good
opportunity to, to, to, to get

666
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,960
reset.
So you know, we see this as more

667
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,280
an opportunity because I think,
you know, if they can deliver

668
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,280
into the next, next three
months, you know, this June

669
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:06,720
quarter that that, that'd be
good.

670
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:09,680
And another example of that is,
is, is Bellevue that, you know,

671
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,600
has been so bashed up and, you
know, went through the, the, the

672
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,440
plan, went through the details
of where they did, they did mine

673
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,360
and where they're going to mine
in the, the, the next quarter.

674
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,200
And, you know, Darren
articulated that, you know,

675
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,960
quite nicely in the
presentations that he's had over

676
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,960
the, the, the, the last few
weeks that, you know, that's

677
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,720
another one where, yes, there's
a lot of risk whether they can

678
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:34,160
actually add it.
But because there's a big

679
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,880
difference for Pantoro between
delivering, you know, bit over

680
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,280
18,000 oz and then to deliver 23
plus, you know, that's a, you

681
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,240
know, big jump in, in in
production.

682
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:46,880
But it's the type of deposit
that can do that.

683
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,440
And same with Bellevue.
They've got the type of deposit

684
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:51,880
they can.
But those, the problem with

685
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,200
these single asset companies
with high grade minds is you

686
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,880
know, they, they do have a one
or two quarters a year can be

687
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:03,080
tough, but they'll also have one
or two quarters of the years

688
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,200
that that'll outperform and
they'll be spectacular.

689
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,000
And so you've just got to be
mindful of of that.

690
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,600
So when it's going really well,
probably want to take a little

691
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,320
bit of profit because it's not
going to be long before you have

692
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,280
a a tough quarter or two and
sometimes you have two tough

693
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,080
ones in a row.
They're going to be there. 2

694
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:25,880
good very good ones side by side
I reckon because size like

695
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,360
Pantoro.
Pretty full Spot gold exposure

696
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,920
right now.
Bugger all debt.

697
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,600
No hedge book.
Yeah, no hedge book Bellevue,

698
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,680
but far out like if they
automate, yeah, it'd be

699
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,960
interesting to see if you've
been having talks and like

700
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,560
they've been presenting since
they've been reinstated to

701
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:49,320
quotation because effectively
they need to hit that 40,000 oz

702
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,600
like and if they don't because
the the talk about it is like

703
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,560
have they raised enough?
Because if they're with, they

704
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,800
are unhedged, but like if they
don't make the most of this 9,

705
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,680
pretty much nine months
unhedged, they've got a bit of

706
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,240
exposure in the December
quarter.

707
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,400
But I guess what's the, it can
really go the other way with the

708
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,200
covenants and everything.
What, what's your vibe of them

709
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:18,120
at the moment based on, you
know, meetings?

710
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,480
Yeah.
Oh, look, to, to, to be very

711
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,280
clear, I haven't spoken to
Darren since the, OR anyone at

712
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,040
Bellevue since the, since the
race.

713
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,000
And, you know, they, you know,
they just presented the

714
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,640
information, you know, asking
questions around where the, the,

715
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,080
the, where did they mine and
what went wrong?

716
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,080
And he, you know, explained
what, what, what happened and

717
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,400
why they got themselves into
that situation.

718
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,960
And so you can see that.
So then it's a matter of, you

719
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:45,600
know, taking that risk.
But it's one of those things

720
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,080
that's risk weighing, you know,
it's like, you know, we don't

721
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,400
have it as the biggest stock in
the the portfolio, but it's one

722
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,840
that, you know, I think there's,
you know, something you can take

723
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,480
some, some, some risk on and,
and, and have a lot.

724
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,720
But you know, you got to watch
what what watch very carefully

725
00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:04,760
in terms of how it's progressing
and, and just, you know, make

726
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,160
sure that you don't become, you
know, too, too overweight in

727
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,440
something with that risk,
because if it takes off, it can

728
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,240
go, go, go really well.
And you know it, it could go

729
00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:15,920
back to dollar $50.60 very
quickly.

730
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,520
And that's a really nice upside
in, in, in short term.

731
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:24,080
But as, as, as you point out,
Mattie, it's if they don't, then

732
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,840
they gotta do another raise.
And one of the real risks around

733
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,520
all this is we don't know what
the covenants are that, that

734
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,160
the, the debt provider
Macquarie's got in there.

735
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,000
You know, there's all these
little catches.

736
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,120
And I used to work for Deutsche
in their debt finance business.

737
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,400
And you know, the, those guys
are brilliant at putting little

738
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,280
hooks and stuff all over the
place.

739
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,440
So it's, it's the game that,
that, that, that they play.

740
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,600
So you got to be very careful.
It may all look good and, and

741
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,720
suddenly they get pulled up for
a little covenant that, you

742
00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:56,800
know, the equity investors have
no idea even exists.

743
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,440
And, and before you know it,
they're off for another raise.

744
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,960
And if they did another raise,
you know it.

745
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,520
I don't think it'll be at $0.85.
I think it wasn't one of them.

746
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,000
20% of quarterly like 20% of
guidance.

747
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:15,360
So if you're if you're 20% below
in 1/4 what what your guidance

748
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,320
was like that, that's a covenant
which is.

749
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,880
Yeah, that one they spoke to.
You got to have one, yeah.

750
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,160
And as you talk about, you have
those one shit quarter, it's

751
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,640
pretty easy to go 20% below
guidance when you're, you know,

752
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,360
low 30s, so.
Well, that's right.

753
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,560
And the other thing is that the
the company hands over their

754
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,040
their model and says, OK, this
is our mine plan.

755
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:37,560
This is how we forecast
everything.

756
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,680
And then the bank applies its
own sensitivities to that.

757
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,280
So they'll, they'll say, yeah,
well, that's all well and good,

758
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,200
but we're not going to use that
tonnage or that grade or, or

759
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,720
that production number and, and,
and, you know, adjust the

760
00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:54,320
recoveries, whatever.
And it's their prerogative to to

761
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,000
do it.
They'll get a independent

762
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,800
technical expert, but to come in
and, and sense check that.

763
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,240
But it's, you know, it's very
easy for them to, to sensitize

764
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:07,040
down, you know, the, the, the
plan and we don't know how much

765
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,080
they sensitize it to, to run
that model out.

766
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,000
And that's where it's, you know,
it's very difficult as an equity

767
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,080
investor.
To do that and that's why you

768
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,200
just got to take the appropriate
caution when you're looking at

769
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,240
it.
So is it cheap?

770
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:25,640
Yes it is, but it's cheap for a
reason and then it comes into

771
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,480
risk weighting.
You know what the tech you need

772
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,720
to get into this, this could
make you a fortune because you,

773
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,760
you know, like the analysts for
lithium, they can like they can

774
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,080
track for satellite and shipping
and like have a estimate how

775
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,680
much ships of going in and out
and get a pretty like good

776
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,520
prediction on how much lithium
has been shipped by a company.

777
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,240
Imagine if you could do that for
the gold bars, if you could

778
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:54,920
track how many bloody gold buzz
going on the plane or something.

779
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,000
If you can.
There's no GPS far out, so

780
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:58,880
pretty much.
Lithium.

781
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,280
They just need some sort of
weight indicator on the.

782
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,680
Yeah, that'd be so get everyone
to weigh themselves or like

783
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,840
there's a way we'll chat after
Rick.

784
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:09,200
Thinking around to something.
Maddie.

785
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,080
I'm working on it now.
If we, if we look at some of the

786
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:17,440
other Goldies, Rick, I think I
saw that Gold Rd. was one that

787
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,840
you were holding or at least had
held in in the past.

788
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,000
What's the end game for for Gold
Road and their their sort of

789
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,880
takeover drama?
Yeah, that, that's it look good.

790
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,640
Good question.
It's, you know, it's one that

791
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,240
we've been in and out over the,
over the journey.

792
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:35,000
It's like, you know,
geologically it's my, my, my

793
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,360
favorite deposit.
I, I, I describe it as probably

794
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,400
the most boring place to work on
the planet because every day you

795
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,640
work up the grades the same, the
strip ratios just recoveries in

796
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:46,040
time.
It's like you don't have to

797
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,800
think to operate at that.
Market gutted to Tara.

798
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,160
But, but having said that,
they've had all sorts of

799
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:56,040
problems so you know, there is
no reason for it to to have the

800
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,680
problems has had.
So that's clearly, yeah, they

801
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,840
had a cultural issue on site
that people just weren't rolling

802
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,240
up to work.
And that's really disappointing

803
00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:07,560
and it shows the importance of
of culture on site then.

804
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,800
I feel like that was pointed out
specifically by Duncan in the

805
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,240
paper he got.
He made a quote.

806
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:14,480
It was something along the lines
of every, every quarter there

807
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,120
seems to be an operational issue
by our the operators gold fields

808
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,600
despite the factory areas is
simple and predictable ore body.

809
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:23,840
It is.
I think he's actually spot on

810
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,800
the mark there that there was a
real cultural issue.

811
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,560
So they changed out the
management and that was earlier.

812
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,640
Well, yeah, very early, like
generally last year that changed

813
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,200
Goldfields changed the
management out.

814
00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:41,320
They put, put the, the necessary
changes in place and, and really

815
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,560
fix that problem.
So to their credit, they they,

816
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,720
they fix that.
And then usual story when you

817
00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:48,360
have when you have a bad run, it
all goes wrong at once.

818
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,720
So then they had the big rain
event and they were trucking

819
00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:55,440
stuff in which literally from
SA, from Perth into SA then back

820
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,280
back in degree, yeah, just to
get it to site and, you know,

821
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,520
ran out of reagents, fuel, food,
everything.

822
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,040
So, so, you know, there were,
you know, a number of issues,

823
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,200
but now and then they got behind
on the mine plan and then you're

824
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,440
sort of chasing your tail a
little bit until you you get

825
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,600
back on top of things.
But I think, you know, they're

826
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,280
close to getting that.
It's obviously with the

827
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,280
quarterly that came out today,
they're not quite there yet, but

828
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,400
still, you know, rectifying
that, that, that plan.

829
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,120
But the other thing they had
was, you know, that stake in,

830
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:27,040
in, in, in degrade that you can
see that that was, you know,

831
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:30,560
pretty, pretty lucrative.
And so that's why we, we held

832
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,360
that last late last year had a,
you know, pretty sizeable

833
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,760
holding in that that, you know,
that was, you know, really big

834
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,320
ballast that short was underway
undervalued.

835
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,440
But there was, you know, this
residual value of that degray

836
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,600
stake that really held it up.
So, so we had a pretty large

837
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,760
holding there and then we sold
out and then they had the

838
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,320
takeover bid and strangely it
was trading at about oh 15 or

839
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,000
$0.20 below the the bid price at
the time.

840
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,920
So, so we we just went back in
and grabbed the heap of that.

841
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,360
But yeah, we don't have too much
these days.

842
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,240
I don't think it's now training
in line with the Northern Star

843
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:11,080
share price and and that's what
has really driven it.

844
00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:14,160
You know, I've mentioned earlier
that Northern Star is, you know,

845
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,720
ticked up as a lot of people
come into a big liquid gold name

846
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,840
that it's really just benefited
from, from from that now, you

847
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,480
know, Duncan and the, the board
are trying to extract a bit more

848
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,440
value from goldfields and that
may come, but you know, it might

849
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,480
be, might be sizeable, but it
might be two or 3% and we're,

850
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:37,720
we're not here to make 2 or 3%.
So, so I think they're a, a

851
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:39,640
better, better opportunities out
there.

852
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:43,160
But like I said, it's a
fantastic deposit.

853
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,280
It's a geologically it's a
dream.

854
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,800
Rick, I'm pretty sure you're a
5% shareholder of Alto Metals

855
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,800
and then obviously the tie up
came with Bright Star.

856
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,920
Have you rolled everything and
still holding your bright Star

857
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,000
position?
Yeah, No, we're, we're, we're

858
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,480
still there.
You know, I said, I think that

859
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,480
the three-way merger was Houdini
Act and and I, you know, really

860
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,080
like the way that the company
is, is, is structured now that

861
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,120
they've got a really good
development project around that

862
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,400
sandstone region.
Because the problem was there

863
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,600
were three main companies there
that, that, that had ground and,

864
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,440
and, and, but all of them had
sort of half to 2/3 of a mine

865
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,280
and none of them had the ability
to actually become a mine.

866
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,920
But when, you know, you
consolidate 2 of them, you put

867
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:37,680
2/3 and 2/3 together, you, you,
you actually get the mass is

868
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,000
dodgy, but just under 1, you
know, so they got to, you bring

869
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,200
these things together, you
actually get rid of the junk.

870
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,720
And then you've got something
which is damn close to a, to a

871
00:45:45,720 --> 00:45:47,560
mine.
Then you just need the, the time

872
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,120
and the money to, to, to drill
it out and to, you know, get a

873
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,040
good team to drill it.
And then at the same time,

874
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,760
they've got their labour and hub
and, you know, they're getting a

875
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:01,360
bit of production coming out of
their, you know, that's, you

876
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,480
know, the first first batch was
good that, you know, the second

877
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,720
miners started up that, you
know, there's a little bit of

878
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,800
cash flow coming from that.
You know, that's, that's always

879
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:16,760
a, a, a, a risky, a risky
approach to have small scale

880
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,880
mining.
But in a, you know, in a, in a

881
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,920
bull market, you can actually
get away with that.

882
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,880
It's a bit, you know, it's the
equivalent of of DSO in lithium.

883
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,040
You know, no one would be
thinking about DSO lithium

884
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,800
today, but in the bull market,
it made companies like Minarez a

885
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,080
lot of money in a, in a very
short period of time.

886
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,480
And so you can do that, but at
some point I think it will

887
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,560
become a little bit trickier.
And, you know, just got to be

888
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,960
cautious around that, that, you
know, these small underground

889
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:46,640
mines, there's a number of them
starting up.

890
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,560
That means it's going to be, you
know, they're going to be

891
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,160
challenges finding, you know,
the getting the productivity out

892
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,920
of those mines.
As you know, the more demand

893
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,720
comes in for, you know, the,
the, the jumbo operators and

894
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:02,560
the, the air league miners and
the drillers and, and

895
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,040
everything, because the skills
required around running an

896
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,800
underground miner are much
higher than running an open pit.

897
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:14,120
And so to find the appropriately
skilled people might be easy

898
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,640
when might have been easy mid
last year, but I think they're

899
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:20,040
becoming more difficult from
from from now on.

900
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,880
So just a little bit of caution
around Bright Star, but I, I, I,

901
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,120
you know, it's, it's stock that
we, we still hold have have, you

902
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:29,400
know, quite a reasonable
position.

903
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,640
And I, I think it's a great team
and, you know, a great strategy.

904
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,120
I think it's, you know, really
appropriate for the for the

905
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,360
market today.
But I don't but I don't envy his

906
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,800
job as AMD to be honest.
Like between the Sandstone work,

907
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,520
the Menzies side, obviously the
Lavenden side, mix of

908
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:50,200
development just got, he's got
to produce some mines now, the

909
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,040
toll trading and like to be
honest for all the deals they've

910
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,320
done, they're probably share
price hasn't ripped too much.

911
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,320
Do you think they need to
simplify the business and

912
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,960
offload parts of it or do you
think there's a bit too much

913
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,560
going on at the moment or do you
like that there's a lot going

914
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,200
on?
Yeah, no, it's a good question.

915
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,480
It's like because the share
price, you know, really hasn't

916
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,160
taken off, even though he's now
got scale, you know, he's got

917
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:17,840
the momentum with the production
coming on.

918
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,360
He's starting to drill some, you
know, good holes.

919
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,280
You know, initially I thought
that was, you know, because of

920
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,360
the merger.
There's yes, probably a lot of

921
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:30,400
long-suffering shareholders in
in there that are using this

922
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,400
liquidity event to get out,
particularly in Alto where, you

923
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,520
know, there was there was never
much liquidity in that stock

924
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,520
that there's people who have
probably been there a long time

925
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,120
and just want to get out and
it's like taking them time to to

926
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:44,480
get out.
And finally, here's the

927
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:48,720
opportunity for the doing, but
you know, it really hasn't moved

928
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:50,200
much.
But I think there's probably

929
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,760
just caution to make sure that,
you know, they, they can

930
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,200
actually make money from the
mining.

931
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,760
Because like I said, it's not a,
an easy thing to do,

932
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:02,640
particularly in a, a small scale
that you know, can become quite,

933
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:04,920
quite, quite expensive very,
very quickly.

934
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,600
If it, if it doesn't deliver,
but it, you know, appears to be

935
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,400
delivering.
I think if they, you know, get

936
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,840
focused on the drilling and and
produce some good results, then

937
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,520
that's what I think ultimately
that's what's going to, you

938
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,320
know, drive the movement in the
share price.

939
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,880
You know, the gold production is
a nice thing to do, but it's

940
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,440
really the the upside from
exploration.

941
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:29,120
That's that's why I'm there and
you know that that's what I've,

942
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,200
you know, that's what's really
got to deliver.

943
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,040
I actually think I remember
sitting next to you and we're on

944
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,360
a site visit around Diggers and
you pulled out your phone, you

945
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,440
checked your announcements and
Patronus just popped up as a as

946
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:44,360
a substantial shareholder of of
Alto kind of mid, mid amidst the

947
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,160
potential deal there.
What were your thoughts seeing,

948
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,080
you know, these agitators, these
pesky agitators pop up in that

949
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:51,920
in that deal at that point in
time?

950
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,200
Yeah, look, you're really
worried when that sort of stuff

951
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,600
happens, but, you know, there
was a there was an opportunity,

952
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,480
there's an arbitrage that opened
up and, and those guys are, you

953
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,400
know, they're, they're great at
doing that.

954
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,040
And and, you know, they just
they, they just worked that

955
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:06,760
angle and, and, and did well out
of it.

956
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,440
So look, good, good luck to
them.

957
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,000
But yeah, I was, I was a bit
worried there for a while that,

958
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,360
you know, it might block it
because I thought the, the

959
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,200
merger, what was a, a, a great
idea.

960
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,960
And, and like I said, there were
a couple of players in that

961
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:25,240
sandstone area that, you know,
they all add half or 2/3 of, you

962
00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:28,200
know, what could be a mine.
And it's so hard to actually,

963
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,920
you know, make it a real mine.
So, you know, going back to

964
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,200
production, it's like, yeah, you
can get in production and you

965
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,720
can, you know, start small, but
you've got to very quickly move

966
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,440
through to being a sustainable
producer.

967
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,200
And, you know, a good example of
that is is Loot Cray at

968
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,600
Oribanda.
But you know, they started up

969
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,560
that that project and I never,
never liked it because it was it

970
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:53,440
was, it was subscale and it was
like, you know, 60,000 oz.

971
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,840
You know, for years I was
saying, well, tell me the

972
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,360
company that started producing
in, in the last 15 years who

973
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,480
started with less than 70,000 oz
and and didn't blow up.

974
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,640
And there there wasn't one
until, till bloody or abandoned

975
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:08,480
came along and, and proved me
wrong.

976
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:12,480
And but two things happened
there that the gold price went

977
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,080
through this great run.
But, but I think Luke and the

978
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,960
team did an extraordinary job
of, of, of, you know,

979
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,520
positioning that, that, that
company getting through that 70,

980
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,640
you know, 80 now they're up to
the 100 and, and you know,

981
00:51:24,720 --> 00:51:29,080
they'll be a sustainable, you
know, 100,000 oz per annum

982
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,360
producer.
But if he stayed around the, the

983
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,560
60 or 70, he would languish.
And then if there's a back in

984
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,560
the gold price, you know, the
first one with the lights to go

985
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,520
out will be, you know, those
small guys.

986
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,640
So you've got to, you've got to
cross that divide.

987
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:46,520
You've got to get to that
100,000 oz as as quickly as you

988
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,320
can.
Otherwise, you know, you, you

989
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:53,920
run the extreme risk of, of, of,
of blowing up and having to, to,

990
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,320
to, to, to shut down.
And so, so that's why it's, you

991
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,160
know, it's fine to, to start
small like Bright Star, but

992
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,840
they've got to have an end goal
to actually get to something

993
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,440
meaningful.
Otherwise it could be, you know,

994
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,440
very costly if if, if there is a
pullback.

995
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,440
Rick, if we talk about the the
same sort of concept in a

996
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,360
different commodity for a
moment, AIC was another one

997
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,200
you'd mentioned in the past.
They're they're small scale, but

998
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,800
bit by bit turning it into a
bigger company.

999
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,840
Where are they at sort of in
your mind now?

1000
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:26,440
Yeah, it's a, it's a good
question.

1001
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,920
Like you, you look in the copper
space and that's an extreme case

1002
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,560
of what what I've been
describing for, for for gold

1003
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,520
that you look at all the small
scale, you know, copper base

1004
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,440
metal producers, you know,
they've just been disasters.

1005
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:40,000
You know, they, you know, they
start up.

1006
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,840
I've got this great management
plan and all the great

1007
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:45,840
management team and, and
everything, but they, they, they

1008
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:50,680
never deliver now AIC Mines was
right at the bottom end of what

1009
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,720
you'd say is a sustainable
operation when it was, you know,

1010
00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:59,760
10,000.
Tons per.

1011
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,760
Yeah, tons of copper per annum
in, in, in concentrate.

1012
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,080
They were, you know, they were,
they were just there and they're

1013
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:08,400
producing, you know, a little
bit of gold as well.

1014
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:12,360
But now with the Jericho
acquisition, you know, they're

1015
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,000
going to, you know, pretty much
double that and they're, they're

1016
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,960
ramping up and, and it was 10,
they're going to crept up to 12.

1017
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,480
You know, we're, we're getting
bigger, but I think they're

1018
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,920
moving into Jericho.
There's been a few challenges

1019
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,640
with the, the ventilation shafts
getting that in place, but you

1020
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:30,520
know, they're progressing really
well.

1021
00:53:30,720 --> 00:53:34,280
Once they get into that, then
they're then they're away and

1022
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,640
they've, you know, got enough
money now to sustain it.

1023
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,560
So they had a, a challenge
lodging period there, which I

1024
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:44,240
think Aaron did a fantastic job
of, of, of managing in terms of,

1025
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,840
you know, raising capital at the
appropriate time, not diluting

1026
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,760
shareholders, but you know,
moving the, the project forward

1027
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:56,680
that I think, you know, now it's
just a matter of getting the,

1028
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,960
the access drive across to, to
Jericho, getting the ventilation

1029
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,320
everything set up.
And then as he starts to drill

1030
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,080
that out, you've got the
potential for new discoveries to

1031
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,760
come out, but also the
additional production to come in

1032
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,440
because the Eloise deposit,
that's been not the, the, the

1033
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,240
driver of, of, of production in
terms of, you know, it's, it's

1034
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,720
rich, it's high grade, but it's
getting quite deep and more

1035
00:54:18,720 --> 00:54:21,280
expensive to, to, to, to
extract.

1036
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:25,240
They need to find alternate
sources And the, I think the

1037
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:27,840
team's doing a good job.
So I think, I think, you know,

1038
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,840
in terms of the copper
companies, you know, he's in

1039
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,000
that small, big, small, moving
into that moderate size.

1040
00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:37,360
He's, he's really at a
interesting in, in inflection

1041
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:38,960
point.
And so, you know, I think

1042
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,240
that's, that's one of the, you
know, the, the, the better

1043
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:43,800
copper opportunities.
So then it's a matter of what

1044
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,760
your, your view is on the, the
copper price in the, in the

1045
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:49,520
interim, because that's what's
really driving it.

1046
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:54,680
You saw their share price go
from $0.30 to about 4043 cents.

1047
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:56,320
And then it went back to I think
28.

1048
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,520
Now it's back to 35.
So it's been a a pretty volatile

1049
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:03,840
run, but I think the market's
seeing that, yeah, probably

1050
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:08,680
overran itself at 43, but it was
ridiculously underpriced at at

1051
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,000
at 28.
So somewhere in the mid 30s he's

1052
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,440
probably right, but heading
towards something higher I.

1053
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:17,600
Think I still remember when they
raised capital in the 40s, there

1054
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,760
was a Twitter post went up.
So why didn't you do a share

1055
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,560
purchase plan for the existing
shareholders?

1056
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,360
He's like you've had the
opportunity to buy him in the

1057
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,280
20s and the 30s all the way up.
Why would you want to buy him

1058
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:31,600
now?
It was.

1059
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,080
Brilliant.
He's quick witted.

1060
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,560
I like him.
Ding, Ding, Ding on that on that

1061
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,000
one.
What about the the undeveloped

1062
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,520
project space recollected the
resources in the ground that are

1063
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,120
are not mines yet, you know, be
it be it gold, which is

1064
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:48,400
particularly hot right now.
Where have you been deploying

1065
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:51,440
and and adding to in your in
your holdings right now?

1066
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:54,480
Yeah, it's look good.
Good question.

1067
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:59,400
It's, you know, the Next Gen.
Resource Fund started nearly

1068
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,200
five years ago.
And for a long, long time we,

1069
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:06,560
we, we were pretty close to 30%
of that money would, would sit

1070
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,320
in explorers.
And at the moment we've got this

1071
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:14,880
roaring gold market and you
know, you, you, you'd think

1072
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,560
you'd be, you know, cycling
down, but it's running near all

1073
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:21,280
time lows in terms of resource
explorers because it's from

1074
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,560
memory it was like about 2223%.
And it's been at those levels

1075
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:29,600
around 25 or just under for,
for, for, for quite a few months

1076
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:31,880
now.
And, you know, it's really

1077
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:35,040
difficult to see value in those
explorers.

1078
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,480
And like, we really like
Petrotherm, obviously, which we,

1079
00:56:37,720 --> 00:56:39,920
I talked about before.
And we've got a, you know,

1080
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,920
sizable exposure in, in, in
Petrotherm.

1081
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:47,960
That's, you know, dominating
that, that, that 22 or 23%

1082
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,640
explorers in the portfolio that,
you know, there's a couple that

1083
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:56,040
I, I like and, and then it then
it's, you know, sort of slim

1084
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,080
pickings among them.
And so, you know, we've got a,

1085
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,040
got a few that are, are, are
there, but it's, it's always

1086
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:07,160
been a, a tricky space to, to,
to pick those explorers.

1087
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,840
You know, there, there are
groups that that do a great job,

1088
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:14,080
like funds that do a great job
like Johnny Forward at Lowell.

1089
00:57:14,080 --> 00:57:18,640
He, he's, yeah, he, he, he's,
he's the, the genius at, at

1090
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,920
picking those small stocks, but
he runs his portfolio very

1091
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,320
differently to, to ours.
He has a much larger number of

1092
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:27,760
stocks.
So he'll place numerous bets

1093
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:30,680
across that.
And, and, and that's obviously

1094
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,080
a, a great strategy because he's
had, you know, fantastic success

1095
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:36,840
at, at Acorn.
We're probably a little bit

1096
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:41,320
further up, up the the curve,
but yes, we do invest in some of

1097
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,760
those explorers.
But what we're looking for is

1098
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,160
like a, a Petra firm that have
made a discovery, drilled

1099
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:48,880
something.
It's like, yeah, this is

1100
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,840
something that could, you know,
get become a mine.

1101
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,840
That's when we move in rather
than, oh, you know, he's a

1102
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:57,880
really good team.
We've got interesting ground.

1103
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,720
Yeah, let's go and back that
exploration company.

1104
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:05,920
It's not, it's not the, the, the
acorn thing, whereas it's more

1105
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:08,920
a, a, a low Li, you know,
they're invested across

1106
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,280
produces, developers, explorers,
but they'll have a large number

1107
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:16,600
of, you know, early stage
explorers, whereas it's, it's

1108
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:20,040
pretty unusual for us to, to get
too green on that, that green

1109
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,040
fields are part of the, the
exploration curve.

1110
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:24,760
Rick, I've got one more
question.

1111
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,040
And I think it's a company that
sort of fits that billing that

1112
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:30,040
I'd seen you'd held in the past,
Patriot Battery Metals, what are

1113
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:32,600
you making of lithium more
broadly?

1114
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:36,240
And how do you see those guys
specifically navigating the

1115
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,880
Lausanne curve?
Yeah, look, another great

1116
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:41,880
question.
You know, I went out to site

1117
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:46,280
last September, so I went to
Canada and because I thought,

1118
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:49,040
oh, lifting prices down, here's
a really good opportunity to go

1119
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,360
in and and see.
And I went to site, went and saw

1120
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:58,320
Patriot, Winsome Sayona, went
out to the Beckencourt plant,

1121
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:03,480
which was arcadium at the time,
now Rio's hydroxide plant,

1122
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:06,040
lithium hydroxide plant that
they're building just outside Of

1123
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:09,040
Montreal.
So, you know, we did a, a couple

1124
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,720
of site visits there and it's
like, in terms of the, the

1125
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,160
project, it's like outstanding
project.

1126
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:18,960
You know, it's, you know, it's,
it definitely is world class.

1127
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:23,320
You know, the, the size, the
grade, you know, it's, I, I, I

1128
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,400
think it's, you know, a
fantastic project and you know,

1129
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,920
with Ken, Ken, Ken running at
Ken Brinstone, it's, you know,

1130
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:31,760
it's got excellent management
team.

1131
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,280
So it's got, you know, all, all,
all the hallmarks for, for what

1132
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,280
you want in terms of a
development project.

1133
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:41,440
The, the next thing you do when
as an investor you say, well,

1134
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,800
what's their ability to progress
that project along the, the

1135
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,040
curve and to actually, you know,
make, make money in that?

1136
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:54,280
And we, you know, we had a
Patriot last year, but I sort of

1137
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,480
came to a realization like late
last year that it was actually

1138
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,320
going to get very difficult for
these developers to raise.

1139
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,600
Reasonable amounts of money in
this market to to advance the

1140
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,680
project.
And so before BW came in and,

1141
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:12,120
and, and gave them some money a
sort of realization that, you

1142
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:16,320
know, those projects like
Winsome and and, and Patriot

1143
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,400
have got that they're just
really challenging in, in the

1144
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:20,800
market that we're in at the
moment.

1145
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:24,400
And so if you want to have
exposure and, and take some, you

1146
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,320
know, leverage, you're probably
better off being in a, in a

1147
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,360
producer that's got enough cash
to actually, you know, have a

1148
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,920
runway that they can survive the
next ideally 18 months or two

1149
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,840
years.
And so if it's a big company

1150
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:41,080
like Pilbara, if you, you want
to see a rebound or among the

1151
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:45,040
smaller ones, probably the best
1 is a Siona Piedmont merger

1152
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,600
that, you know, there's a
company, they've got a lot of

1153
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:52,720
cash, they're producing.
So if the price does turn, the

1154
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,040
first guys to, to run are the
producers.

1155
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:59,040
So it's going to be Pilbara,
Siona, they're going to run

1156
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,520
quickly.
I don't think you'll see much

1157
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,280
movement in the stocks like
Winsome and and patriot, because

1158
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:08,320
the minute the share share price
runs, there's a high likelihood

1159
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,320
of a raise that, that that'll
follow that'll really cap it.

1160
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:15,560
But these other guys, you know,
there's no need to raise money

1161
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:18,440
that they're away.
So that's probably the, the way,

1162
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,480
you know, I'm thinking about
lifting at the moment that it's

1163
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:25,880
just too hard to, to, to be
unless you've got a super long

1164
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:30,640
timeline.
But you know, as a, a fund

1165
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:33,360
manager, you know, we can't.
We, we, we, you know, we've got

1166
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:37,040
a, we say we, we, we, we take a
three-year view, but people

1167
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,040
still measure my performance
monthly.

1168
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:41,600
So I've still got to make some
money in the interim.

1169
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:45,200
Oh.
The joys of it very good.

1170
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:47,800
Any more questions lads?
I'd be interested like probably

1171
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,640
to close out that lithium one.
Do you think we're going to see

1172
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:55,360
any deals while everything's
depressed like RGI, for

1173
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,040
instance?
Like Speaking of one that'll

1174
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:00,960
probably RIP because having the
best Hard Rock exposure to the

1175
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,720
best Hard Rock asset in the
world, Like, you know, I guess

1176
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:09,520
PLS has done their deal with
bloody Brazil.

1177
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:13,640
In Brazil, I got a blatin Latin
bloody absolutely blank.

1178
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:15,080
But that's not going to be doing
much.

1179
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:19,680
So we're going to potentially
see RGI do something similar and

1180
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:23,320
pick someone up while it's all
depressed because you either, if

1181
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:24,880
you are in that company, they'd
pick up.

1182
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,440
You either have the choice to
you got the liquidity in RGO to

1183
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:32,720
get rid of your stock or you got
RGO in a depressed lithium

1184
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:34,760
environment.
What do you think?

1185
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:37,640
Yeah, I look like, I think
there's definitely good

1186
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:41,120
potential and that that's always
the, you know, the firecracker

1187
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:44,920
in the mix that, you know, that
sort of thing could could

1188
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:46,480
happen.
You know, to be honest, I was

1189
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:48,760
actually really surprised about
Latin.

1190
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,440
No, it's not, it's not a project
that I particularly like.

1191
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:56,880
It's a, it's a whole series of
steeply dipping pigmatites.

1192
01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:00,200
And so mining those things, you
know, your blast that you can

1193
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:02,120
actually mix that it's not
ideal.

1194
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:05,560
Whereas, you know, pay the pay
trip makes a really good point

1195
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:09,680
that it's, you know, 1 gigantic
bigfig pigmatite.

1196
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:11,840
So that, that is perfect for
mining, whether you're

1197
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,280
underground or, or, or open pit
that you're not going to dilute

1198
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,800
with the, the host rock around
it being the iron bearing

1199
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:23,960
basalt.
So, so I, I, I, I was actually a

1200
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:26,400
little, little bit surprised by
that one.

1201
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,800
And, you know, we, we've seen
it, you know, you guys might

1202
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:34,480
remember there was, you know,
odds and it's takeover of a

1203
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:37,800
copper company.
The name's just escaping me at

1204
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:39,720
the moment.
It was, it was a dreadful

1205
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:42,600
project and they paid a fortune
for it.

1206
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:46,640
So big companies make some crazy
decisions when they've got a lot

1207
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:49,320
of cash.
And I think they see the bottom

1208
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:52,120
of the market that what was the
odds?

1209
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:55,960
The Brazilian project.
The Brazilian, Yeah.

1210
01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:02,640
The project these it'll come,
it'll come to me after the show.

1211
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:07,200
But the point is, you know, the
sometimes big companies make

1212
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:12,720
some poor M&A decisions and I I
think Latin will probably go

1213
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:15,920
down as one of them that I, I
just don't see it as a, you

1214
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:17,880
know, to pick something up at
the bottom of the market.

1215
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:20,120
I think there are better things
out there than that, but it's

1216
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:25,200
you know that that that is there
opportunity for other M&A

1217
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:28,160
definitely at these prices.
You know, I thought the price

1218
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:32,320
would start to rebound a little
bit by by now because in terms

1219
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:34,760
of what the fundamentals were,
all those mines that were

1220
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:37,240
shutting down last year, they
were still shipping concentrate

1221
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:40,600
right up until late last year.
And so it's only now that you're

1222
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:43,240
starting to see it come off.
But you know, with Mount

1223
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:46,600
Holland, Holland starting up a
little bit of activity, starting

1224
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:50,920
up again in Zimbabwe, it's just
obviously enough to keep the

1225
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:54,760
price subdued for a bit longer
than I thought it would have

1226
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,160
occurred.
But, you know, people are, you

1227
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:01,120
know, these companies, you know,
they're watching that, they'd be

1228
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:02,800
aware of that.
And they'd probably be thinking

1229
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:06,440
about the timing because the IGA
timed it beautifully in terms of

1230
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:10,600
their, their, their, their
Greenbushes acquisition a couple

1231
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:13,200
of years ago that, you know,
that they're probably thinking

1232
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:17,400
that, that again, that's, you
know, probably best just to hold

1233
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:21,280
out, get the timing right, pick
the best project and then, then

1234
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:23,600
you're away.
Just offset the nickel

1235
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,400
acquisition timing, yeah.
That's right.

1236
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:28,400
Yes, well, forget about that
one.

1237
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:30,280
No, no, it's all good.
It's written written down

1238
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:31,560
though.
Let's Yeah.

1239
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:33,400
Just remember the latest one,
this new one.

1240
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,360
Don't worry about that one.
Right, All good lads.

1241
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:37,600
Oh good.
That was bloody awesome.

1242
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:39,440
Rick, I like, I like your
holdings.

1243
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,040
You think the same way I do
about these, you know,

1244
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:43,400
producers.
I like it.

1245
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:45,160
That's probably not a good thing
for you.

1246
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:48,440
Great to chat, Rick.
Thanks for coming on money of

1247
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:50,520
mine.
Right, Hi, good stuff.

1248
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:55,080
That was I like that.
That was a good that was an in

1249
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:59,440
the middle Fundy chat in terms
of explorers big caps.

1250
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:04,680
It's like he's in that cool area
that I like of developers

1251
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,720
producing and ramping I liked.
It with a with a sort of Geo

1252
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,440
skill set that Rick brings to it
going up very, very interesting.

1253
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:14,000
Yeah, bloody like it right out.
Just as interesting as the JRX

1254
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:16,080
conference.
The discount code, mate.

1255
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:23,480
MOM, if you're an Osman or Osman
member, MOMNM not member if

1256
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:28,760
you're for 190 or 160 bucks off.
It's the centre of tech and

1257
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:30,280
innovation.
I can't wait to go.

1258
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,320
You're mad if you don't go get
your bloody company's credit

1259
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:37,280
card and buy the tickets.
They're pretty much free for

1260
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:39,520
anyone.
And a massive companies thank

1261
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:41,960
you to our other partners,
Mineral Mining services,

1262
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,080
Grounded Sandy Ground support,
CRE Insurance, K drill, WA

1263
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:48,400
waterboards, Quattro Product
engineering, KCA site services,

1264
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:51,560
Black Diamond Drilling services
and last but not least Cross

1265
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:54,120
Boundary Energy.
Information contained in this

1266
01:06:54,120 --> 01:06:56,880
episode of Money of Mine is of
general nature only and does not

1267
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,520
take into account the
objectives, financial situation

1268
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:01,560
or needs of any particular
person.

1269
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:04,920
Before making any investment
decision, you should consult

1270
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,000
with your financial advisor and
consider how appropriate the

1271
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:11,680
advice is to your objectives,
financial situation and needs.