Mark Connelly on Why Every Miner is for Sale

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Financial advisors, they've got
a team.

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Legal advisors, they've got a
team.

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You've got to manage your own
internal team who what can say,

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talk about database which
multiple people have access to.

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So you've got to have speed and
certainty to try and work

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through a transaction.
Mark Connolly, thank you for

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joining us on Money of Mine.
Glad to be here.

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I have.
I've got an anecdote I want to

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share with you to kick things
off because people in the

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industry, they joke that when
you join a board, it's the

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closest thing to a for sale sign
that there is in the industry.

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And it's, it's not without good
reason.

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I you know, in in preparation,
we've looked at all of the all

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of the companies where you've
either been chair or director of

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the company and that company is
ultimately, you know, sold to a,

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to a larger, more capitalized
acquirer.

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There's Adamus to endeavour
Papillon to be to a gold

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cardinal to, to to Shandong Oclo
to be to a gold chesser to

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Fortuna Alto to bright star
Warda to Capricorn Primero to

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NRW Toro gold to resolute.
It's a long list of, of, of

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selling companies that you've
got there.

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Mark So he's what do you what do
you make of the the the

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accusation that you.
Are maybe for sale, Maybe it's

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fair.
I thought we'd have to tease it

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out, yeah.
Interview over.

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I think, you know, I, I, I look
at things a bit differently.

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So I, you know, everything's for
sale, as I was always taught

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many years ago, it comes down to
a willing buyer and willing

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seller.
And, and, and it's, you know,

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it's, it's something that I
pride myself on.

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I, I really care for the
shareholders.

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And that's why I like doing
what, what we can do.

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It's important that, you know,
you try and maximize value for

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shareholders.
And, and I say to people when I

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join boards, listen, I don't
need a job and I can be honest

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about that.
If you want to do something

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fantastic, if you don't want to
do something, I'm not the guy

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for that.
So I have a saying go or go, go

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or grow.
So that's the the premise that I

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work on is, is let's make a
business or let's you know, see,

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we can, you know, give it to
sell it to someone else or

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transact it in some way shape
or.

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Form I'm very, very keen over
the course of this conversation

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to to tease out, you know, what
that really looks like in

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practice.
We, we talk in this esoteric way

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quite often about, about
companies through the lens of

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the ASX announcements.
And we try and still in, in our

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words, what we think is
happening, what the, what the

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real issues are.
That might not be as obvious

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from the announcement, but, but
we've never lived through those

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dynamics ourselves.
And you know, I think I think,

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you know, from the conversations
we've we've already had, I can

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tell that you're someone who
thinks about the the industry

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with a similar lens to us about
the the you know, the

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opportunities, but also the
challenges that the interplay of

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of soft issues with real issues
these days.

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Mark you you sit on.
I could get the list up to

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remember them all.
You should as effectively non

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executive chairman of.
Just if you go ahead, I always

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like to have the chair role.
So I'm not typically.

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I don't like just to sit in a
passive Ned role because the

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chair and the CEO is a is a
partnership.

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So you've got to have some
influence as well.

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And, and hopefully working with
CEOs, they added my opinion and

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they've added my, you know,
experience.

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So I always look at it as a
partnership.

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So it'll be a chair and that way
I can certainly have more

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direction the outcome of the
future of the company or you

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know what, whatever we're doing
so.

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That that makes that makes sense
because when we're running our

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notes, I was like, is he chair
of all of these JDS?

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Like, yeah, I don't think he's
the director anyway.

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So there's Astral, Stella,
Tesoro, Emerson, Renegade

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Exploration B.
Metals, that's.

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One on the director and very
recently catalyst upfront, we've

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got to do it.
You're you're on the board of

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that many companies that we've
always got to disclose when

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we're in stock in some of these
companies.

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And by by chance, you are, you
know, we could do a Ding, Ding,

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Ding on on Emerson and Stella,
but that's not why we've brought

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you in.
You wear many, many hats.

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We we're just, we're keen to
peel into peel into the yeah,

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the the mechanics of of your,
your insights and and the deals

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you've been apart.
I'm happy to share some thoughts

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and you know, hopefully we
haven't you could engage in

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conversation.
Why don't we start by by talking

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Mark about how you set the
expectations within the board.

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You made the comment before we
started recording.

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It was really interesting that
even some of the the bigger

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investors in the space, people
we've interviewed previously,

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they haven't run a public
company before.

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So there's a lot of pressures.
There's a lot of people you got

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to please.
If we start at that very first

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level, the other board members
you mentioned the the grow or

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go, how do you think about
getting them on the same page

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about the the strategy of where
this company is going?

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Yeah, I'll just answer that
before, you know, jump into

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something.
I when, when people say to me,

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I, you know, want to be a
managing director or a CEII,

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always say to them, listen, it's
the loneliest, most thankless

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job in the company and you don't
have any friends.

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And it's, it's for me, it's 95%
of the job is St. facing.

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So you're talking to investors,
shareholders, supports, you

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know, service providers, so
forth.

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And the other 5 or 10% of that,
that role is managing the

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internal part of the business,
not the external part.

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So, so challenging the part
about composition of boards to

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answer your question, JD, is a
lot of people come from

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executive roles and then they
transition into non exec roles

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and that and and I was once told
by by Tony Keenan, who is a very

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good and a very respectful that,
you know, someone I really

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respect.
He once said to me to be a good

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non exec director, you need to
have your nose in and your

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fingers out.
Problem I often see composition

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of board members is that their
ex former executives and I want

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to get in there and fiddle
around and mess around with the

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how the company is being run.
That's fundamentally wrong to

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me.
So that's the first sort of

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boundary that I always try and
set with the board and say

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you're here as a non exec
director.

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We'll tap into your experience,
your network, you know your your

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contacts, but we're not going to
tap into you is is get you to

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write press releases or
announcements because otherwise

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get rid of the management.
We'll find the management who

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can do that.
They overreach sometimes and non

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exec directors really frustrates
me.

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So that's kind of one of the
boundaries I always say is you

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want to be a non exec director.
If I'm the chairman, you're

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you're head in a support role,
not in a doer role.

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That's important.
I think that that that piece is

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important because otherwise
management will never make

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decisions, never own decisions
if they're being told by their

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board, you can do this or you
can't do that.

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I mean, provide some assistance
rather than provide the, you

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know, the actual activity of
doing that.

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That's the first thing I would
want to say.

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The other part about the
composition of the board's

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relevant experience and currency
of experience.

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I mean, you know, I've sat on
boards where, you know, someone

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had been in the industry 2530
years ago and there's 75 years

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of age.
Well, that's not currency,

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that's not relevance to me.
So you've got to find, you know,

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people who are like minded and
most important have the same

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motivation for the outcome.
Don't see it as a job.

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You're the custodian of the
shareholders wealth or their

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investment.
So that's why you're there

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looking after their investment
as best you can and discount,

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you know, the fact that it's a
it's a job.

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It's not a job.
Never consider it as a job.

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It's.
Yeah.

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I think that the, the way you
frame the, the difference in

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responsibilities between between
management and the and the board

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is interesting.
Like where, like where, what are

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the clear division of duties?
Just to kind of to frame it, We

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know what what sort of things is
the board actually responsible

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for and where, where does you
know, where does where does

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management?
Start really good question trap,

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because I think a lot of boards
more have a sort of a view of

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what they should be doing and
the management review.

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I see three things for the for
the board strategy.

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First and foremost, the
company's got to have a

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strategy.
What what is it going to do?

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The second one I see critically
important is the performance,

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the health performance of the
business.

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The financial health first,
first and foremost is the

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financial health.
Then you've got the operational

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health, the you know, the social
health, the cultural health, but

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it's the health of the business.
And the third one is the

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executive management
performance.

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That's the three things I would
say the board needs to focus.

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So strategy, the performance,
health, health in those

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definitions I've described and
the executive management

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performance, the rest,
regardless of, you know, whether

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you need to have a, you know, a
stat report on safety stats or

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whatever, that should just be
part and parcel of the business.

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So this the board should have
strategy, financial health and

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executive management performance
key for me.

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So on, on that kind of train of
thought and the, the comment you

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made before about other
directors stepping over the

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line, you had the experience at
a couple of the examples that

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Trav listed before of actually
running the company.

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Was that kind of key to to you
and your your holistic

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understanding of what the role
the board needs to have in a

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company?
It's fortunate because I've sat

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in both seats so I know what
required as an executive

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management team and then, you
know, as a non executive teams

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or the board as well.
So it is some of their, you

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know, experience I've had and
some of the frustrations when

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you're engaging with board
members and some of the

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frustrations as an executive as
well.

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And, and, you know, I've, I've
been fortunate to work across a

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number of different
jurisdictions, different

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countries, lived in, worked in
other countries.

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So I get a pretty, you know, a
fairly wide breadth of, of, of

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experience coming across those.
I've worked in Canada, I've

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worked in the US, I mean, we all
may look, dress and talk

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similar, but culturally there's
a lot of nuances that don't we

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don't have the same.
So it it becomes challenging on

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on that basis as well.
You know, I think the key is,

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and I'll go back to the
composition of the board.

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It's important that you have
like minded people, same, you

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know, path where they want to
see the company get to.

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And, and one thing that I always
say is that companies have an

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evolution cycle.
So you can jump on, you know, at

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some point and jump off at some
point.

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You don't have to be there for
the whole duration of that

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evolution cycle.
So you might engage a board

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member who's a project, you
know, builder, for example,

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build the project, then he exits
the board because the company's

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evolved into a different, you
know, company posts that

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construction, for example.
I think that you have to have a

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recognition that there's certain
points you as a board member,

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you move on and at certain
points you should put your hand

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up and say, I think I should
outside my experience or outside

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my skill set and never be afraid
to do that.

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I mean, that's the other thing.
You know, certainly at times

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board members stay too long,
which is a real frustration I

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have.
And what?

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Happens when they stay too long.
Well, you have got to have that

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polite conversation.
Then you're going.

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Polite.
Is it bad for the company if

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they stay too long?
Do they get complacent?

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Do they?
I think they get, yeah,

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complacent.
I think they often get too, you

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know, cosy or, you know, too
lazy at times.

226
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,800
You know, board refreshment is
good.

227
00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,880
Bringing new ideas, bringing
different skill sets is a good

228
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,280
thing.
You know, leaving boards is not

229
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:52,240
a bad thing as well and times,
you know, the the company may

230
00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,280
evolve outside of someone's
skill set or experience.

231
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,200
So change, make a change.
And and the other thing I think

232
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,520
at times is boards are too big
and cumbersome.

233
00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,640
I like working with small boards
3-4.

234
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,600
That's the kind of number I
because you can, you can make

235
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:08,760
decisions.
You're agile.

236
00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,960
You can, you know, you don't
have to canvas so many opinions

237
00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,520
when your strategy is clear.
You have you know you've met

238
00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:21,200
executive management are working
well, you can make decisions.

239
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:26,160
I, I want to, yeah, I want to, I
want to like, maybe just speak

240
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,880
about some of my observations
and, and these, these

241
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,960
observations that might be like
grounded in reality or, or, or,

242
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,640
or, you know, not really reality
just because it's my

243
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,080
observations.
But I look at, I look at the,

244
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,240
the remuneration of a lot of
like, like there's so many,

245
00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,800
there's so many, like 5-6,
seven, $8 billion gold companies

246
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,240
now.
And they, they were, they were a

247
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:50,800
fraction of that just two years
ago.

248
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,960
And now you look at, they've
got, you know, these 888 people

249
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,320
boards and a typical non exec
director is getting A150160, a

250
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,640
$170,000 just to, just to, in my
head, they're going to 8

251
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,200
meetings a year.
I know there's more, more than

252
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,800
that.
But if, like, how can, how can

253
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,280
someone be completely aligned as
a director with, with, with

254
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:13,840
shareholders?
If they're pretty attached to

255
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,240
the annuity income that is their
non executive director wage?

256
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,160
Are they, are they always going
to be trying to put themselves

257
00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,000
out of a job when they're,
they're, you know, they're,

258
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,200
they're just getting up.
It becomes a lot harder on that

259
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,160
basis then, doesn't it?
Because it, it, it's, it's hard

260
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,480
to give up totally.
So that's where the misalignment

261
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,200
is.
I mean, I look at maybe the, a

262
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,520
lot of conversations happen
about what equity did directors

263
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,240
have in companies.
Then you go through that cycle

264
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,160
of conversation or you go, oh,
we don't want directors having

265
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,200
equity then we want them to have
a directory because they're

266
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:47,640
conflicted and not conflicted.
So I, I think the part of the

267
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,320
problem is that the pool of
talent is also small.

268
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:56,200
So you may have to at times pay
reasonable or pay fair and, and

269
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,880
reasonable compensation for
directors because that talent

270
00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,840
pool is, is a lot smaller than
maybe it used to be.

271
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,280
And that comes back to
experience and it comes back to,

272
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:11,400
you know, currency as well.
There is a misalignment in some

273
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,480
respects.
And I think it goes back to some

274
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:18,080
early comments where, you know,
it's not a job.

275
00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:22,400
You're there as the custodian
for the shareholders to look

276
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,080
after and represent their
interests.

277
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,880
I think to take that into the
role, you know, I think the

278
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,080
outcome is always going to be a
little bit better than, you

279
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,720
know, than, than when it should
be or it can be.

280
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:39,720
So at times, sometimes you see
some board members

281
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,600
overcompensated and I I'll be
honest with you, and there's a

282
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:44,920
conflict there.
This kind of goes all the way,

283
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,240
all the way up to to the BHPS of
the world.

284
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:51,200
Some of them are earning 350,
four, $100,000 a year and.

285
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,040
Chairman may make 2 million a
year or a million a year.

286
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,040
Exactly.
And they're 10 people, 12 people

287
00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:58,920
type boards.
Like I just think, how do you

288
00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,480
get a decision made?
Attached not just to the wage,

289
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,880
but the access to the private
jet, the all of the perks.

290
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,040
How do you think about putting
yourself out of a job?

291
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,440
It's got to make sense first and
foremost.

292
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,960
I mean, everyone said to you
earlier comment, you know, if I

293
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,360
come on the board, if people see
the full sale sign, I mean, the

294
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,120
the biggest challenge in this
the gold and I'll talk to the

295
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,560
gold industry because that's my
most, you know, current

296
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,080
experiences and is, is a
universe of sellers.

297
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,920
There's one buyer or two buyers
and that is the misnomer where

298
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,960
people, you know, they, they
have a project in WA and think,

299
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,360
oh, the guy next door is going
to come and buy it off me.

300
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,240
Well, that may not be the case.
The most obvious examples of

301
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,080
situations where you think your
project's going to be bought by

302
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,960
the neighbor never happens.
It's always someone else.

303
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,840
So that's the challenge.
So first and you know, first and

304
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,480
foremost, there's always
sellers.

305
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,000
As I said, you're always up,
always everything's for sale,

306
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,000
find a buyer and it's very
difficult to find and then

307
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,320
satisfy the terms and conditions
of the sale, what shareholders

308
00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,560
want, what management wants,
what this person wants.

309
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,280
And it comes down to price or
consideration or terms of the

310
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,120
deal or whatever.
I mean, it's, it's not easy.

311
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,040
And there's a cycle of of when
the windows open to do a

312
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,560
transaction, it's not open for a
long time.

313
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,320
It's open and shuts very
quickly.

314
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,640
And it's a lot of pieces to a
puzzle that you've got to have

315
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,040
all in place very quickly to
make them and execute on.

316
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,360
So one of those big pieces is
what we kind of group together

317
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:42,200
as the soft issues and the
western suburbs type box

318
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,080
checking exercise that you need
to get done, do you think?

319
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,800
That I live in the western
suburbs, so you can say that

320
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:49,040
that's.
Fair, good and bad.

321
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,320
So do do you think that issue
that that we kind of speak about

322
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,400
all the time is underrated or
overrated?

323
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,520
Is it?
Is it more pronounced than it's?

324
00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,080
I think you've sort of said you,
you sort of look at public

325
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,240
commentary or public documents
and other sort of, you know,

326
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,160
communication.
There's a lot of subtleties that

327
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,319
go behind the scene.
And you know, it's, it's often,

328
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,079
I often describe it as like a
Hollywood movie set.

329
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,480
What you see in front of the
camera is not what happens

330
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,800
behind the camera.
There's a lot of conversations.

331
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,400
You know, there's a lot of egos
you've got to deal with.

332
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,440
There's a lot of self-interest,
entrenched management.

333
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:26,640
I mean, you can list goes on and
on.

334
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,360
And again, you talk to a lot of
people and you probably see the

335
00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:33,200
same thematic coming through
lots of those conversations.

336
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,360
You've got to work your way
through those.

337
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,080
There is a, it's more
challenging than people would

338
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:43,280
actually realize and, and
shareholders just see the sort

339
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,000
of the, you know, the sticker
price or the sticker

340
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,480
announcement that comes out of a
transaction getting to that

341
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,160
point.
There's a lot of, you know,

342
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:56,600
complexities to get to that,
that position and you know which

343
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,520
you've got a warranty as well as
a chairman or as a management

344
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,840
team or as a board that that's
the right outcome for the

345
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,760
shareholder.
And it's, it's not a waste that

346
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,840
simple to just say, you know,
here's the price, here's the

347
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,920
terms.
There's a lot of things that can

348
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,720
transpire between that and deal
closure as well.

349
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:20,040
You've launched a deal close.
It's very difficult.

350
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:26,240
There's, there's, there's,
there's a lot here, Mark, but I,

351
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,640
I do, I do want to like peel
out.

352
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,720
It's not uncommon for a lot of
their companies that are for

353
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:32,800
sale.
Quote UN quote for sale.

354
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,560
That'll that'll intermittently
received from time to time a

355
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,720
confidential non binding
indicative offer from from

356
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,360
someone who wants to get access
to the data room.

357
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:43,240
Maybe there is a credible bid,
maybe it's not It's your job to

358
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,000
figure that out.
But what like what actually

359
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,920
happens, you know, from a board
perspective when, when you

360
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,360
receive a letter from from from
the chairman of a potential

361
00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:54,720
acquirer on a, you know, like
Friday night.

362
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,640
Well, it typically happens on a
Friday night or long weekend or

363
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,760
two days before Christmas, you
know, on, on your Easter break

364
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:04,880
when you're, you know,
travelling somewhere that that's

365
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:10,720
reality because people always
try and find you off guard first

366
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,680
thinking that typically, you
know, you need to be ready as a

367
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,080
company.
And through my time, I can say

368
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,800
many conversations as the chair
to the management teams.

369
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,560
Are we ready?
So day one coming on the board,

370
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,880
the first thing I would say to
the management team is get ready

371
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,560
for a transaction.
And I say, oh, we're ready.

372
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,320
Our database is ready and we've
got all the information.

373
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,560
And then you, you go into a sort
of an audit and nothing's

374
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,280
complete or nothing's ready.
Or some guy's got his laptop

375
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,440
computer with the geological
database on it.

376
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,160
Well, that's not a database
sitting on someone's, you know,

377
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,120
laptop computer.
So first and foremost, you've

378
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,800
got to get your house in order.
So I have all the information,

379
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,440
documentation, database ready to
go.

380
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,760
And prior to that, you've got to
get the management team on song

381
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,640
to say no.
If a transaction does come or an

382
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,480
offer does come, as you say, are
you prepared to be unemployed?

383
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,720
First and foremost?
Because someone's going to lose

384
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,000
their job.
And that's reality.

385
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,600
What what needs to happen and
what should happen is someone's

386
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,440
going to end up without
employment.

387
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,440
And if you're prepared to have
that conversation early?

388
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,600
Mindsets there and you, you can
sort of chart a better path to

389
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,080
getting a, a, a transaction
complete because there's no

390
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,960
there's no resistance to that.
So that's first and foremost so

391
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,400
you've got to have your house in
order to be able to do it.

392
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,400
If an MBIO comes on a Friday
night at 5, you hopefully have

393
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,920
a, you know, advisor, financial
advisor engaged or mandated or

394
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,040
you know, close to being
mandated legal advisor at the

395
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,080
same point.
So you basically, you know,

396
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,400
Corel, you're bored, get your
board together, but you also

397
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,560
have your team in play ready to
respond accordingly.

398
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,280
And so that's important that you
have those conversations in

399
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,600
advance of something potentially
happening.

400
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,640
So all the companies that I'm
involved in or have been

401
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,640
involved, that's the first thing
that we're trying to get.

402
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,160
Get your house in good order,
get your team together with

403
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,480
legal financial advisors.
So you know, it may not happen,

404
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,120
you may wait for six months or
12 months or 18 months, but you

405
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,040
you've got that those pieces in
play for the, for the

406
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:26,280
transaction which could come
through.

407
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,040
So that's the first and
foremost.

408
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,760
Thing and the T advisors will
well do some work to help you

409
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,560
form a view on valuation to
give.

410
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,880
You they do the back, they do
the background of that.

411
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,240
They will do comps, they'll do
evaluations, they'll educate the

412
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:43,480
board on the counterparty, all
that kind of stuff that you want

413
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,120
from because you know, we're
sitting there as you know, the

414
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:50,880
potential acquirer or Aquiry and
you're sitting there saying

415
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,200
who's the counterparty?
What's their strengths,

416
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,120
weaknesses, what's the currency
of the deal?

417
00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,200
How's the deal?
Look, paper, cash, whatever

418
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,040
combination I think.
And, and one thing I must say, I

419
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,480
don't think I've ever been
involved in a hostile

420
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,880
transaction.
Most of them are chairman, the

421
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,680
chairman going to pick up the
phone, you call the counterparty

422
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,680
chairman in there or they call
you and all of a sudden you have

423
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,280
a conversation and cut through
the sort of the first, you know,

424
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,120
5 minutes of General Chit Jones
say, are you, you know you, you

425
00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:24,720
say, yeah, we're prepared to
transact.

426
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,080
Then things move forward on that
basis.

427
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,640
So most of them are friendly
transactions.

428
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,000
Friendly enough that people will
come through the front door, not

429
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,920
through the back door are.
You are you are you trying to

430
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,720
select, you know, solicit
alternatives at the same like

431
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,720
the same time, there's there's
this friendly nature you're

432
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,160
trying to get the counterparty
to uplift to something that's.

433
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,720
That's that's where the adviser
comes in in play because they

434
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,280
can have those conversations
because there's obviously

435
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,720
fiduciary Judy's that, you know,
put on directors.

436
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,840
You can't put a foot sale, sign
up and then start, you know, try

437
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:00,720
and sell it two or three times
to someone else.

438
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,680
I mean, part conversations
happen all the time, but that's

439
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,040
where the advisor facilitates
those conversations on your

440
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,200
behalf.
Yeah.

441
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:09,480
And that's where they earn their
money.

442
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,240
And what, what, what actually
has to happen for you to be, you

443
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,920
know, willing to, to enter
exclusivity with a, with a

444
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,480
single party?
Like what are the conditions

445
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,400
that that would would?
Typically, you know, is the

446
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,720
offer something that we need to
consider?

447
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,640
I mean, if someone low balls
offer, you know, in a, you know,

448
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,480
you know, single digit premium,
for example, for an asset, you

449
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:32,600
probably say it's not going to
meet the hurdles.

450
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,280
We, you know, you do have
conversations over the course of

451
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,120
the journey with some of your
institutional shareholders of

452
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:42,760
major shelters and they give you
guidance of where they're

453
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,920
prepared to working with a price
or transaction terms.

454
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,520
So, you know, if someone comes
in with an offer and it's too

455
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,960
low and then you, you couldn't
take that to your shadow because

456
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,040
you wouldn't get support.
But if it's one of those, you

457
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,480
know, offers that comes in and
says this is what we offer comes

458
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,520
in here and your expectation is
close to that, then obviously

459
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,320
you you move to the next step of
engagement where you may provide

460
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,000
exclusivity, you may provide
access to data room.

461
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,040
You know, the nuances are a
little bit different for every

462
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,200
transaction, but you know, you
want to engage.

463
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,040
So engage on this basis.
And then you know two things

464
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,240
you've got to have in M&A speed
and certainty because the longer

465
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,440
it takes and the more people
involved, it's harder to keep it

466
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:31,480
confidential.
And that's one of the one of the

467
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,560
challenges because the audience
grows and grows and grows

468
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,360
because you've got financial
advisors, they've got a team,

469
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,120
legal advisors, they've got a
team, You've got to manage your

470
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:43,600
own internal team who what can
say talk.

471
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,720
You've got a database which
multiple people have access to.

472
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,520
So it's you've got to have speed
and certainty to try and work

473
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,200
through a transaction.
Crap, do you know who else are

474
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:56,880
always busy just getting deals
done?

475
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,720
No Exceed capital.
They're always opening brand new

476
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,520
opportunities for property
trusts that people out there can

477
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,200
invest.
These are property trusts with

478
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,680
defined timelines, with monthly
distributions paid out with

479
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,600
targeted returns.
What's not to love about that?

480
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,400
Well, when I, when I read the
targeted returns 8% cash, but

481
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,880
then also capital uplift, I was
interested and yeah, these,

482
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,000
these, these, these are private
trusts, right?

483
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,240
Private trusts, defined
timelines.

484
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,600
You can find out all the info
you need in the showy notes.

485
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,640
Their latest trust is the SP
Property Trust is a commercial

486
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,640
property piece of property in
the great state of Queensland.

487
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,400
It's got fantastic tenants like
the Queensland Government, like

488
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,040
Bupa.
So if that sounds like something

489
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,280
up your alley, you should click
on Exceed Capital in the show

490
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,440
notes.
Galaxy Capital back to Mark.

491
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,680
This point on on value is is by
far the most interesting to to

492
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,520
me.
Do you have like a working model

493
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,480
at all times of what you think
the company is kind of?

494
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,560
Worth indeed.
You're always running comps,

495
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,480
you've got cover analyst
coverage, you're always sort of,

496
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,160
you know, running a, a database
of those conversations at

497
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,000
different levels and details.
And, you know, and typically

498
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,200
what I've always seen is
management's is here and the

499
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,840
market is here.
So how do you educate management

500
00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:16,800
between what you know, what they
want and what the market's

501
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,040
telling you?
You're worth first and foremost

502
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,440
and you've got to take some
discounts out of there, take the

503
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,040
gold price out of there in my
view, because the gold price is

504
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:30,640
so volatile in today's, you
know, the cycle, it doesn't give

505
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,800
you that sort of common sense
metric in my view.

506
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,440
You know, if market says you're
worth a dollar and you're

507
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,560
expecting to get $2.00, well,
there's a disconnect somewhere.

508
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,720
So you got to work out where
that disconnect is.

509
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:49,000
So, you know, you may transact
at $1.50, which is a 50%

510
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,840
premium.
So you've got it.

511
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,680
There's a fair bit of stuff that
continually gets refreshed all

512
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,800
the time.
And you know, forward members

513
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,240
have a different view.
They might think blue sky gets

514
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:06,040
valued into a comp comparison.
Lots of companies you know, I've

515
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,120
had done transaction with don't
value blue sky.

516
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,040
They're paying for what you have
in the ground or they're paying

517
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,400
for what you have in near term,
not in 5-10 years time.

518
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,640
But that's kind of aspirational
stuff.

519
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,160
You're lucky if you get anywhere
near that kind.

520
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,000
Of and what happens when, when a
company comes to you and you're

521
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,320
in a point of weakness, how do
you, how do you kind of navigate

522
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,200
that?
Question.

523
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,720
As I said, I probably haven't
seen any hostile in transactions

524
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,040
in my time.
All of them are being sort of

525
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,240
friendly.
You know, we're congenial kind

526
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,160
of conversations.
You're trying to get a good

527
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,760
outcome for their party and all
your, your, your shareholders.

528
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,520
So you try and work on that
basis.

529
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,800
Yeah, it's, it's, it's really
comes down to sort of where the

530
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,440
conversation can go through.
You know, I think if you, if you

531
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,520
put the message to the
counterparty that you've

532
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,400
engaged, that that's the first
starting point.

533
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,040
You know, a lot of times, you
know, board members may say, no,

534
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,720
that's stupid.
We're not going anywhere near

535
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,440
that.
So, and that's fair, they may

536
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,360
have their own point of view.
I kind of try and think what's

537
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,400
what's looking more further
forward ahead rather than what's

538
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,480
on the plate today.
Management teams become

539
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,200
delusional with their own
expertise and skills and

540
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,680
mindsets.
And you know, you've got to kind

541
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,320
of reframe what they're good at
and what they're not good at.

542
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,080
I mean, a lot of people think
they can go and build a project

543
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,440
in West Africa.
Well, to be quite honest, not

544
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,360
many people can do it and not
many people have done it from

545
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,360
Perth or from Australia or
wherever you pay.

546
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:50,120
So, you know, there's a bit of
sort of arrogance and, you know,

547
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,160
delusion with some of those
things.

548
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,360
And, and I say it honestly to
everyone I talked to and this is

549
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,760
a bloody hard industry to make
money and, and deliver for your

550
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,720
shareholders.
You know, forget the equity UPS

551
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,400
uplift, you know, it's very,
very difficult to put something

552
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,840
into production.
I've done it and it's not easy

553
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,600
and it's such a challenging
market.

554
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,160
Yeah, it always has been.
It's a show me market.

555
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,160
You got to continually show the
market your performance.

556
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:25,520
It's it and it just week in,
week out, month in quarter in,

557
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,320
quarter out, six monthly.
It's bloody hard business.

558
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,480
This is this, this, you know,
philosophy that you have of the

559
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,280
of the industry, I think informs
some of your, your outlook today

560
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,800
because you talk about setting
this strategy go or grow.

561
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,080
I can't help but notice looking
at your track record, they're

562
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,800
all go.
None of them, none of them are

563
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,280
grow right.
Well, we grew Adamus.

564
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,080
Until you until it's time to go,
we.

565
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,560
Built it and then single asset
company in West Africa is, you

566
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,560
know, it's, it's seriously hard
work.

567
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,720
And I take my hat off to, you
know, people in my peers at the

568
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:09,160
time, you know, Jeff Cornemaine
and Richard Hyde who built

569
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,800
something and then continued to
operate them.

570
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,200
They've done an outstanding job.
And you know, the Endeavour guys

571
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,360
as well.
And you know, others B2 these

572
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,600
guys have gone into frontier
countries, built projects, found

573
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,400
to, discovered them first, built
them, operating them and making

574
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,880
money.
I mean, there's such a

575
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,360
challenge.
So when we were running Animus

576
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,360
or when I was running Animus, we
was you know that scale was just

577
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,480
not we went a $6 billion
company, we were a 300 million

578
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,200
making 110,000 oz at less than
500 bucks an ounce, you know,

579
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,080
and today that'll be a 2 1/2
billion dollar company, maybe

580
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,320
more.
I mean and we transacted it for

581
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,720
put two companies together and
ever was 300 million, we were

582
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,200
300.
There was a $600 million tie up.

583
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,840
Endeavour had a $200 million
cash in his bank account.

584
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,520
So it's assets were bad.
It had three, two assets.

585
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,840
Assets were buried at 100
million bucks and 1 was an

586
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,200
operating mine.
You go in Southern Burkina and I

587
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,880
had development asset AG bar in
the Ivory Coast and lots of

588
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,720
exploration stuff.
But in these days that'd be a $6

589
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,960
billion transaction, not a $600
million transaction.

590
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,280
And you know we are making
100,000 oz 110,000 I think we've

591
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,120
made in our first year for less
than 500 bucks an ounce.

592
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,240
You made the comment before we
started recording as well that

593
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,960
exploration has failed
essentially.

594
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,760
But tying that in with the
comments of a lot of those

595
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,440
companies discovering these
things, bringing them into

596
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,640
production, can you just flesh
out that idea that you have?

597
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:48,320
Yeah, I mean exploration and I
refer to Pierre Lasson and you

598
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,320
know, I worked with Pierre when
I was at my time in Newmont and

599
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,960
and we always used to have lots
of commentary on the sideline.

600
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,160
But then and Pierre recently
said it might have been the last

601
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,560
12 months or so, he said.
Exploration has been sort of

602
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,080
exploration has been very
difficult in the last 10 years

603
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,760
in the gold sector.
Very few projects have been

604
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,720
found.
The intellectual property of the

605
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,000
people in the industry of lefty
industry has created a void.

606
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,520
First and foremost, it's been
hard to fund at times.

607
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,880
So because of the the nature of
the cycle in the industry,

608
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,120
industry is underperformed by,
you know by return of capital to

609
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,400
investors and we typically have
overspent on development of

610
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,000
projects.
We're always been behind

611
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,400
schedule over budget.
They haven't turned, they've

612
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,960
been turned on, but they haven't
performed as they would have

613
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,480
expected, as the spreadsheet
says in a study, which you know,

614
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,160
clearly tells you there's a
problem with people putting

615
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,360
studies together.
But you know, things like that

616
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,800
have, have, you know, not
delivered as per expectation and

617
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:01,320
expiration as well as has been
challenged in the OR challenging

618
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,720
in the last sort of 10 years.
When you look at it's new

619
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,960
discoveries and world class
discoveries, I mean, there's

620
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,720
only been a few certainly in
this country and a few globally.

621
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,040
And you know, West Africa and
Richie Hyde and I often have

622
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,360
this conversation.
It's it's somewhere you can

623
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,720
find, you know, a significant
gold discovery and, and Rich has

624
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,600
done that well, but it's in
Burkina.

625
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,680
So it's, it's hard an
exploration I think hasn't, you

626
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,960
know, sort of met, you know, the
return model that investors have

627
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,440
looked for.
So it's, it's not easy.

628
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:42,640
It's very difficult.
The, the, the before we kind of

629
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,760
like, yeah, maybe lean into some
of those, those actual

630
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,800
transactions you've been around
the footy, Mark I, I do, I do

631
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,800
want to, yeah.
Kind of just lean on why you

632
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,520
have that view that making money
in the industry is, is, is so

633
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:57,920
damn hard.
Like where does, where does that

634
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,080
philosophy kind of come from?
Where did it become so

635
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,000
ingrained?
Well, I first of all I have a

636
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,640
financial accounting background.
So I look at things like a cost

637
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,760
accountant and it is from
certainly been around a lot of

638
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,280
projects and a lot of time.
And I had a very good mentor

639
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:20,840
when I was at inmate mining, A
fellow by the name of Richard

640
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,679
Ross, who was my boss.
And Richard was a very

641
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,840
intelligent individual and he
always challenged me on not so

642
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,679
much on the the revenue line.
It's always about the cost line

643
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,040
for him.
You look at the cost because

644
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,159
that's something you can control
and something that you're in

645
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:40,120
charge of.
The revenue looks after itself.

646
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,840
So that was my singular focus
when I was working with him was,

647
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,120
you know, like how do we make
things more efficient

648
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:51,719
operationally, financially
better, you know, wake up in the

649
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,920
morning and think, can we do
something differently to, you

650
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,960
know, improve our, you know,
cost position.

651
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,280
So that's, that's sort of inbred
in my psyche.

652
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:07,960
So that's how I look at things.
And that's kind of driven my, my

653
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:13,720
sort of mantra of how to run
companies is lean and mean less

654
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:19,160
is best, nimble, agile.
You don't have to fly at the

655
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,240
front of the plane.
You can fly down the back of the

656
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:23,360
plane.
So just, you know, I always look

657
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,240
at this in a sense of if it was
my money, what would I do?

658
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,200
What would I do if it was my
dollar?

659
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,760
And that's how I had the same
thought process.

660
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,880
If I'm an investor or a
shareholder, it's their money.

661
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,080
I'm going to try and protect
their dollar that they've put

662
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,480
into that investment as well.
So that very much is my sort of

663
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,960
background in my thinking.
Learnt it from some good people,

664
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,240
got frustrated with other
companies I've worked with where

665
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:54,640
money was, you know, kind of
loosey goosey and wasn't a

666
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,360
priority.
And then, you know, it's

667
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,600
something I try and instill in,
in people that I'm working with

668
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,680
or around is, is upgrading their
financial acumen, which is a,

669
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,040
something that is very, in my
view is, is, is missing within

670
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,880
the, the cohort of people coming
through the industry.

671
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:21,440
I was looking at today and say,
if my gold price was $1000, what

672
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,800
would I do differently to run
that business?

673
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,560
It's not 7000, it's 1000.
Why would you have 8 board

674
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,360
members?
Why wouldn't you just have 3 or

675
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,360
4 And that discipline through
every aspect of the business?

676
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:40,640
Part of these maybe nonsensical
decisions at the board level in

677
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,080
terms of you know the number of
people etcetera, etcetera,

678
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,120
they're pushed upon larger
companies from via the proxy

679
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,520
advisors give any view on some
of the nonsensical things that

680
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,480
large companies.
There's a lot of nonsensical

681
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,840
things I can talk about and I
don't call them proxy.

682
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,920
I call them proxy advice because
they like the, the, you know,

683
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,840
the guy behind the, the black
room or the dark room.

684
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,040
You never see their face or you
never, never know their names or

685
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,240
you can't contact them or talk
to them or have that

686
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:11,000
conversation.
I'll probably get in trouble for

687
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,600
saying this, but but that's, I
mean, if they want to be part of

688
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,040
the business, help the business,
you know, don't sit in the back

689
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,720
room with a, you know, a, a box
to tick for a proxy, you know,

690
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,360
resolution.
I mean, as I continue to say,

691
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,800
it's a very hard business to
make money.

692
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,160
I mean, I, I say this and we've
said it earlier in time, put on

693
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:35,600
and tell me 10 company names in
this gold industry over the last

694
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,520
10 years.
They've consistently delivered

695
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,040
and made returns to their
investors dividends, not just

696
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,600
equity growth, because the
equity growth is a function of

697
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,480
the gold price.
OK, so you tell me have good

698
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,760
management teams, build projects
on time, operate well,

699
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,080
consistent way to return to the
area, but, and not just in

700
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,480
Australia, but globally because
it's a global industry.

701
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,840
You tell me those names and if
you can name 10 over the last 10

702
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,040
years, well, you know, educate
people and tell me who they are

703
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,560
because I can probably name 5 or
6.

704
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,720
And I'm a student of the
industry.

705
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:12,400
I study these companies all the
time, look at their projects,

706
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,920
look at what they're doing, talk
to their management teams.

707
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,800
When you go to conferences, work
out what they're doing better

708
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,920
than others.
There's very few that

709
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,840
continually have returned to the
shareholders.

710
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:29,400
So to answer your question on
proxy advisors, they've got to

711
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,800
be helpful.
Bottom line is you've got to be

712
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,440
helpful for you.
I want to combine a couple of

713
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:38,560
the, the ideas you've kind of
put forward and, and see what

714
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,800
you kind of think.
So you, you mentioned like the,

715
00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:42,960
the right window to, to sell the
company.

716
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,120
There is only a finite window in
which you can sell a project or

717
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,120
or a business itself and
commodity cycles.

718
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,520
Studying commodity cycles, how
do you, how do you think about

719
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,040
in the cycle, the right time to
sell a business?

720
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,440
Well, it probably sometimes it
comes back to someone knocks on

721
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,400
the door and makes an offer.
So that can be unexpected.

722
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:06,840
So you maybe not be quite ready,
you know, yourself when you,

723
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,080
there's sort of milestones as
you walk through the evolution

724
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,840
of companies, you've got a
resource, then you've got a

725
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:17,040
reserve, then BFS or BFS.
So you're de risking it at

726
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,160
times.
And, and I, I say this honestly,

727
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,440
when we sold PAPI onto B2 in
2014, you know, there's a lot of

728
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,240
criticism.
We sold too cheap and price, you

729
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:31,040
know, it wasn't enough.
And you know, you remember it

730
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:36,760
was a development asset in
Western Mali in 2014 when the

731
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,960
gold price was 1000 bucks an
ounce.

732
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,200
You know that translation of
that.

733
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,840
Our price at the time was $1.72
per share for Papillon.

734
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:53,080
Share went to $7.00 at one stage
and got to $10.00 for B2.

735
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,320
If you took B2 pay but went to
$10 in a period of three years,

736
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:03,640
I mean you would have you know 5
* 6 times your money on that

737
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,160
basis of that ratio and
translation through to that see

738
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,160
through price once the project
was in operation, you know it's.

739
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,480
A beast of an asset.
It's still going I've seen 12

740
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,440
years later only. 500,000 oz a
year. 500 what's the cost?

741
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,120
Probably 1000 bucks an ounce A.
Bit more these days, but close.

742
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:25,960
Yeah.
And and you know, we had a study

743
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:29,200
around it at five and a half
million oz we had and we said we

744
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,560
could build it for 350 or 300
million US.

745
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,840
They built of a double lap
because they're Canadians and

746
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,280
they do things differently and
they make it bigger and which

747
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,000
they did and good on them.
You know, that's and they've

748
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,880
operated it.
I mean, we just, you know, it's,

749
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,360
it's challenging those kind of
conversations that you have and

750
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,640
you know, it's I thought it was
a fantastic transaction at the

751
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,240
time.
Could we have built it?

752
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,240
Probably, you know, not everyone
on the board was comfortable

753
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:02,600
about borrowing money and
financing a project in West

754
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,360
Africa.
You know, we could have

755
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,800
certainly done that, got it to
the finish line, but better

756
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,920
outcome was, you know, try and
transact it and put it to

757
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,440
someone with the balance sheet
who didn't have to borrow money.

758
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,880
They had cash flow, they could
fund it and without dilution.

759
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,760
Happy, happy on such an
interesting case study because

760
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:25,800
you, you like, we look through
the announcements and, you know,

761
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,280
it's wonderful discovery.
Share price runs runs really

762
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,160
hard.
Like there's a management

763
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,320
managing director void for a
period of time before you're

764
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,720
even appointed.
And and you can't like, I just

765
00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:39,960
want to understand how like,
what did it look like for you to

766
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:44,040
get my interpretation is is
inserted into into that role

767
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,920
with it, with a clear, you know,
remit to maximize the, the value

768
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,600
outcome of this, of this
exciting new discovery.

769
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,080
Yeah.
I mean, when I joined, I, you

770
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,560
know, basically said, what are
the options that we want to

771
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,000
consider for for to take it to
development or.

772
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,920
It was a middle Miss company.
And Ian was the chairman and,

773
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,600
and, you know, I both had the
same view that, you know, let's

774
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,680
get it to that decision point
and see where we are at that

775
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,640
time.
And Ian was excellent.

776
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,320
I mean, Ian stood back and you
know, I said you're in charge.

777
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:15,960
You run it and you make make it
happen.

778
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,240
I mean, first and foremost, it
ran a bit because the, IT had

779
00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:24,920
the void of the management and
lots of, you know, hype and you

780
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,680
know, you know, sort of huff and
puff in the market at the time,

781
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,720
I think.
And it was a new discovery.

782
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,800
I mean, all of a sudden, you
know, people were, were saying,

783
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,200
oh, this the cola looks like a
great asset.

784
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,480
You know, we took it from sort
of 1,000,000 ounces to 5 1/2 in

785
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:46,480
just over 2 years.
So and 2.6 grams in an open pit

786
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,600
in one pit.
That's why the economics were so

787
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,800
successful and have been so
successful.

788
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,840
It, it was a very good project,
something I hadn't seen in my

789
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:59,840
heat, you know, my career
before.

790
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:02,480
And that's what excited me about
it.

791
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,680
You know, I hadn't, I had
experience in Mali.

792
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,320
I had, I had, did have
experience in neighboring

793
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:11,040
countries.
So, you know, I knew kind of

794
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,520
the, the game plan of the rules
of engagement to, to have

795
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,080
success here and, and make it
big.

796
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,560
Or we could build it or we could
fund it and we could get the

797
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,120
team because I, I built one in
Ghana before and then endeavour,

798
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,280
we were building AG bows.
So we had access to the people

799
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,200
who, who wanted to do it.
It just took it to a different

800
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,880
decision point.
And, and at that time, you know,

801
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,560
we, we, we're, you know,
unsolicited offer came through

802
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:41,680
and we entertained it and the
rest is history, as we say.

803
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,200
So it was a, it's still a great,
fantastic, it's the best asset

804
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,280
I've ever seen in my career and
standing on the ground,

805
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,800
recognizing the quality of the
work we did.

806
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:56,280
And one thing I maintained that
as as a chairman is, is no

807
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,160
shortcuts in the quality of the
work that you do.

808
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:03,160
Engage the best consultants, the
best people and no shortcuts.

809
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,720
It has to be, you know,
bulletproof standard to get to

810
00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:11,000
the transaction because many
times I've heard from

811
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,400
counterparties.
So we've looked at this company,

812
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,360
we've looked at their project.
We can't get there on the

813
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,080
quality of the technical work
they've done.

814
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,440
B2 ran their model, compared it
to our model of five and a half

815
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,200
million ounces in a resource.
They were within 3000 oz.

816
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,240
They were actually higher than
us based on the models that they

817
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,440
ran.
They've come back to me and said

818
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,680
this deal is going to happen
because we've never ever seen

819
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,760
this in the projects that we've
we've been looked at over the

820
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:41,920
history of B2 or BEMA before
that.

821
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,640
This is incredible outstanding.
So when you look at that, they

822
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,560
go, this quality of the work was
first class, which we prided

823
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,720
ourselves on because we weren't
taking shortcuts.

824
00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:56,080
We were a junior in Australia,
but there was no shortcuts

825
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:00,280
discipline back like yeah,
background, baseline information

826
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,320
for EIS.
Every environmental permit or

827
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,320
the environmental permit I
negotiated personally went to

828
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,440
Bamako, went through all the,
you know, Q&A sessions with

829
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,760
government and ministers and you
know, department heads.

830
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,320
Mining license exactly the same.
I would personally did that with

831
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,240
my team on the ground, went
through every meeting, got the

832
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,080
license, that debris that got
the environmental permit and you

833
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:28,800
know, at that stage the quality
and the value was where it was.

834
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:33,880
If we had $7000 gold price today
or 5000 US, it wouldn't be sold

835
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,200
for 600 billion.
But you know, I'm, I'm happy to

836
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,800
take the criticism, but as AB2
share you've, you've ridden the

837
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,160
hive of owning their paper so
and they've been paying

838
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,000
dividends.
One of the few companies that is

839
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,320
actually returned to their
investors over the last 10

840
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,360
years.
A lot of those dealers

841
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,280
throughout your career have
involved script.

842
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,320
Have you tended to to keep the
paper of the companies?

843
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:03,440
I'll keep it where I don't have
a tax bill because most times

844
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,240
you get a tax bill because the
government knows who you are and

845
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:08,960
you're unemployed.
So, you know, you got to you got

846
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,400
to pay your mortgage and you got
to eat and send your kids to

847
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,320
school.
So yeah, I mean, I'm still a

848
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:15,840
shareholder of some of those
companies.

849
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,200
But most of the time, you know,
I'd try and hold for whatever

850
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,120
period I can and you know, and
buy something else or get

851
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:23,600
involved in something else.
Yeah.

852
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:25,680
I want to talk about the
Capricorn Laurida deal.

853
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,040
This was the most recent one on
the list.

854
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,280
So it sort of wrapped up last
year.

855
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,040
It was fascinating from a number
of different angles.

856
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,240
The initial proposal was
ultimately revised up because he

857
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:41,840
had a contingent of of
shareholders that were were kind

858
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:44,240
of holding out.
I didn't think that was the

859
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:46,160
initial proposal.
There was, there was.

860
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,080
A initial public proposal.
There was public, yeah.

861
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,480
Can you can you give us a bit of
the the background info?

862
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,040
Now that's all history.
Yeah, it's, I mean, personally,

863
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:59,800
I, I, I start with Warador to
say if you had someone knock on

864
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,560
your door and say I want to buy
your company or buy your project

865
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,880
and it was Capricorn, you'd
certainly have the door wide

866
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,360
open when you wouldn't close
that door.

867
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:11,320
So, and that's how it happened.
You know, I'd been, I had a

868
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,760
couple of conversations with the
advisor for Capricorn and I, I

869
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,040
mentioned Darren Martin.
He did, he did a fantastic job

870
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:23,320
and he's an excellent M&A
advisor and he helped us with

871
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,680
the Alto transaction as well.
A lot of respect and time for

872
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:28,160
Darren.
Darren and I had a couple of

873
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,880
conversations.
It was agreed that Mark Clark

874
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,080
would call me on a Sunday.
There you go.

875
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,280
On the weekend, I had that chat
at 10:00 in the morning.

876
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:44,040
I rounded up our board the next
day, basically put the terms of

877
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,920
the reference or terms of the
transaction to him and we

878
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:52,800
announced it on the Thursday,
appointed advisors and had legal

879
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,360
advisor and financial advisors
in place.

880
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:59,480
So we moved to that point when
we spoke to some of our retail

881
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,200
shareholders or major
shareholders from institution

882
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:06,480
down to retail, some of them
weren't you know comfortable

883
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,560
with the terms of the
transaction.

884
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,200
And we had a small group take go
One Direction and we went the

885
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,280
other institutions lined up and
said we like the transaction.

886
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,320
Obviously Capricorn paper is
very liquid.

887
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:24,240
So it was, it was effectively
taking cash because I you know,

888
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:28,120
you can hold and sell and hold,
you know, the, the intention was

889
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,040
you get that uplift as the
transaction works its way

890
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,120
through.
To answer your question, Jodie,

891
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,760
it's, they're not always cash
offers.

892
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,280
So you got to take a scheme,
which is more typical of these

893
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,240
transactions these days, because
there's quite a few, you know,

894
00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:48,520
issues that you've got to work
through and gives you time and,

895
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:53,160
you know, sort of AB funds
coming off and come on and jump

896
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,800
in and jump off the register.
So there's a bit of that that,

897
00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:00,840
you know, takes play plays out.
So the initial offer was we

898
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:05,160
pitched a little bit of dissent
from some of the retail shelters

899
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,440
and that's fair enough.
They've got their views on what

900
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:12,160
they think is a fair price.
The offer was rescaled and then

901
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,400
subsequently went to the the
process court dates, votes and

902
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:22,960
you know, it was 88% voted in
favour and you know, 10% or 12%

903
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,280
voted against.
It's like say 9010.

904
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,520
So overwhelmingly acceptance of
the transaction, which was a

905
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,080
great outcome.
Both parties, you walk away from

906
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:33,480
them.
I don't think I've ever walked

907
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,800
away from a transaction where
you've had seller's remorse or

908
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,560
buyer's remorse.
Everyone has been comfortable

909
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,720
that both cap parties have, you
know, come out with the right

910
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,560
deal for their shareholders.
This, this deal was so

911
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:47,920
interesting for a number of
reasons.

912
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:54,160
But if I, if I kind of cast
memory correctly, the, the, the

913
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,600
deal was announced at the market
July ish, I want to say, but but

914
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,200
the, the, the confidentiality
agreement was signed in in

915
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,240
March.
So what?

916
00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:06,880
What happened in March to
warrant that that CA signed with

917
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,040
Capricorn then?
Well, Capricorn was balancing

918
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,600
the Mount Gibson project.
Yeah, they came to us and said,

919
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:18,360
and I wanted to ask them what we
were doing with Warador.

920
00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:23,160
I'm sorry, Warra, Weiner to
Warra or Weiner came to us and

921
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,000
said we want to have a look, we
can see what you guys are doing

922
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,400
because they were tying up some
ground around where they were,

923
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,160
because private transactions
they were doing, they could see

924
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:38,240
maybe if they combine both
Waradar and Capricorn together,

925
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:39,800
that gives them nice land
position.

926
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,880
They wanted to do some of the
infrastructure we had.

927
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:47,080
We had a permitted licensed
plant site, we had ATSF.

928
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,120
There were some synergies that
they could see could, you know,

929
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,200
speed up on time.
Time is your enemy in the

930
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,960
process now because it takes
longer to get things permitted

931
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,120
through, you know, heritage,
environmental, government,

932
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,640
mining.
So if you've got something

933
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,760
already granted, you have
advantage over, you know, trying

934
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,960
to start from a, you know, blank
sheet of paper or Ground Zero,

935
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,840
as we call.
So and and that that was signed

936
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:14,480
in March.
They came to side.

937
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,320
We had a number of CA Simon
number of parties, whether they

938
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,000
were tire kickers or it's.
Not exclusive, it's just, it's

939
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,720
just a confidentiality.
Confidentiality agreement, yeah

940
00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:27,520
and they came to sites like what
they saw and then the

941
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,560
transaction sort of played
through yeah and and and they

942
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:35,040
were busy doing other things.
Obviously they were busy, you

943
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,320
know, running their business
and.

944
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:42,040
And then obviously, you know,
their decision came together and

945
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,480
the rest of this history, as we
say, they put a deal to us which

946
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,000
we agreed with.
And you know, obviously the line

947
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,480
of pushback or the pushback from
some of the shareholders got a

948
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,320
better outcome for everyone.
So it was.

949
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:54,920
Yeah.
And that was the interesting

950
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,360
part of it because there aren't
too many instances where it

951
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,960
feels like a sufficient number
of retail shareholders have have

952
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,640
been able to kind of bandy
together and and influence and

953
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,360
and uplift that that did benefit
all shareholders in the end.

954
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,680
But but it's a kind of a pretty
a pretty rare occurrence in

955
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:12,600
public market seminar, I would
have thought and then.

956
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:14,960
It's the first time I've seen
that kind of might.

957
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,320
Have been TMTAVL as well but.
You do get, you do get

958
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,200
shareholders who you know, have
some say and you know, you

959
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:24,880
respect that.
It's their money.

960
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,720
You know, you try and find an
outcome that you know will

961
00:52:27,720 --> 00:52:31,040
benefit them.
So the critiques of the, the,

962
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,200
the retail shareholders that
were, were agitating for a

963
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:40,600
different outcome or an uplift.
They, they were pointed at.

964
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,680
Well, it feels like two things.
One was said out loud and that

965
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,880
was that a cap raise was, was
done a few months earlier with a

966
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,440
dedicated purpose of, of
drilling meters and, and making

967
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:51,960
this, you know, worth more and
more.

968
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,640
And then the other one was they
seem to think that there was an

969
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:59,040
alternative proposal involving a
a well regarded mining figure

970
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,720
that would have made the share
price pop a lot more.

971
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,160
How do you interpret and did you
know digest and make sense and

972
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,840
bring everyone to to a right
outcome given given that?

973
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,200
I suppose, you know, comes back
to this, the, the, the chatter

974
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,480
of the, you know, the, the, the
sense of this conversation.

975
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:15,280
There's a lot of stuff and
behind the scenes.

976
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,320
So and you know, you're trying
to you, you've asked the

977
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:19,880
question.
Can you give some insights on

978
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,920
what happens behind the scenes?
So that's a good question.

979
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,560
So first one is the Cap raise.
You know, someone knocks on your

980
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,760
door and makes an offer that was
unrelated to the Cap race.

981
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:32,640
So, you know, Capricorn stepped
forward and put an offer in

982
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,080
front of me and said, you know,
we think it's compelling.

983
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,400
I thought it was compelling, so
we acted.

984
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,760
There's always lots of chatter.
There's always someone on the

985
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,320
sideline saying kick at your
mug, you know, and always

986
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,000
telling me that you, you, you,
you don't know how you run the

987
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:49,600
company.
I could run it better or do

988
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,680
something better or, you know,
you know, come in and, you know,

989
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:54,920
get out of the way.
You know, you don't know what

990
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,840
you're talking about.
There's always that, that that's

991
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,400
the nuances or that's life in
the public company space.

992
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:05,360
Everyone's got an opinion.
There was, you know, other

993
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,560
groups, not just one individual
or one group.

994
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,680
There were a couple of others
who had CAS with the company.

995
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,640
Some had been there.
We give you an example.

996
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,840
We talked to 29 Metals for a
long time.

997
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:19,480
They're right next door.
They're five guys away.

998
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:20,600
They've got.
A float plant.

999
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,280
They've got plenty of
optionality.

1000
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:28,360
So we had ACA with them.
So, you know, they were talking

1001
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:33,720
to us as others were the person
who reacted first respect it,

1002
00:54:33,720 --> 00:54:36,120
you, you act on it.
You know, we just can't sit

1003
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:37,920
there and say, well, we're
waiting for this guy to come

1004
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,000
over the over the top.
And then we realised that that

1005
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:46,080
stage, I think, you know, the
management didn't have the

1006
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,000
skills to take it to that next
level.

1007
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,960
So at some stage there was
probably a discussion where we'd

1008
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:55,040
make some changes in the
management and bring in someone

1009
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:56,920
who's more of a project
developer.

1010
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,040
And you know, that was well
known.

1011
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:05,040
We were trying to transition the
company and, you know,

1012
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,920
conversations took place and
then someone stepped forward

1013
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:11,160
and, you know, made an offer and
we acted on the offer.

1014
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,880
I mean, I, I think it's a
fantastic transaction.

1015
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,680
I, I, and I'd say that for all
of them that I've been involved

1016
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,280
in and it had speed and it had
certainty.

1017
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:24,640
It's just that these schemes
seem to take three and four

1018
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:26,840
months now where they would take
two months before.

1019
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,960
There's a lot more process
engagement that you have to have

1020
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:36,440
to get a scheme done, which is
which is a cycle of where it's

1021
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:41,200
going in this industry.
More regulation, less of it is

1022
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:45,640
valued.
There's there's I really want to

1023
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:49,640
talk about Cardinal because from
from the outside, that was just

1024
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:54,280
a a wicked takeover battle, the
sort of, you know, eye watering

1025
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:59,200
thing you you rarely get to see
in our industry because one of

1026
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,320
the few occasions someones going
to pay a stupid price here.

1027
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,240
There's just outbid outbid,
outbid, outbid outbid the

1028
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:06,920
Chinese and the Russians
shareholder.

1029
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:13,160
It's a wonderful sight to behold
your chair of Cardinal through,

1030
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,000
through the through this
process.

1031
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,240
It was it was unique for a
number of reasons.

1032
00:56:19,240 --> 00:56:22,520
I remember the two parties being
kind of neck and neck and

1033
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:25,560
equivalent, equivalent prices.
And both of them were best and

1034
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:26,920
final.
So they were kind of at

1035
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:28,920
loggerheads because they were
legally not allowed to make a

1036
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,960
higher offer.
And Laura, behold, a third party

1037
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,240
comes along that's probably
affiliated with one of them.

1038
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:36,360
But what do you know about Don
Chang?

1039
00:56:37,640 --> 00:56:44,600
Not much at all yeah, I, I, you
know, and that was where I

1040
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,280
obviously wanted the project.
So that was that just played out

1041
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:51,840
accordingly, I suspect.
So I don't want to say too much

1042
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,560
about it there's.
There's, there's, there's no, no

1043
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:56,200
shareholders going to be unhappy
when you have.

1044
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,400
A well, if it's a if it's cash
as well, which is also the right

1045
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:02,360
outcome for that kind of
project.

1046
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:06,400
I mean, I mean, most of my, a
number of my transaction, you

1047
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,240
know, warriors, obviously same
jurisdiction.

1048
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:09,960
When you go across
jurisdictions, you got a

1049
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:15,920
Canadian buying an Aussie listed
ASX, you know, company, it's

1050
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,600
challenging because you've got
time zones, you've got currency,

1051
00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,720
you've got exchanges compliance,
you've got people, you've got

1052
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,880
board members, you've got
shareholders, you've got

1053
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,120
education.
And you know, I, I mentioned

1054
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:34,840
before when we sold the B2 gold,
you know, Papillon, you know,

1055
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,480
out of here comments on who the
heck is B2 gold?

1056
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,360
Never heard of him.
I'm not taking bananas in

1057
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,720
pyjamas paper for this
transaction.

1058
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:47,200
I mean, you sit there and go.
The guys producing 600,000 or

1059
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,040
500,000 oz.
Their predecessor company,

1060
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:53,800
Beema, was sold to Kinross for,
you know, billions, 3 1/2

1061
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:55,400
billion, you know.
Back in the.

1062
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:59,160
Day five years before, you know,
when gold was 500 bucks an

1063
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,760
ounce.
So, you know, you sit back and

1064
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:05,120
you go, you don't, you don't
know who B2 is.

1065
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,040
I mean, they had bought a
project just up the road in the

1066
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:11,200
Philippines Mass Party, which,
you know, was an Australian

1067
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,920
company.
So you sit back and you go,

1068
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,160
yeah, maybe you need to get
educated on what's happening

1069
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:22,360
globally within this industry.
There there was a comment

1070
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:27,320
reading a very old AFR article
that need to would have liked to

1071
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:31,480
do the deal in 2015 but got
pushed into doing it in 2014 and

1072
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:33,560
at the time you wouldn't comment
on whether there was someone

1073
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:37,120
else sniffing around and
potentially had another deal in

1074
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:38,320
front of you.
Can you can you comment?

1075
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,400
Ten years later I can I can say
that they were.

1076
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,240
They were more advanced on their
work than anyone.

1077
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:49,800
There was Newmont, there was
Gold Fields who were keen.

1078
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:53,800
Newmont was a bit hesitant
because I didn't like the

1079
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,080
country.
So that's a funny story as a

1080
00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:01,360
Side Story when I get this guy
from Newmont security and and

1081
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:04,920
remember, I worked for Newmont
and I went to you had a culture

1082
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,960
and menus conga and places that
were pretty hostile for, you

1083
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:13,120
know, Newmont projects.
And we had security detail.

1084
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,960
And this the director of
security called me and said to

1085
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,920
me, Mr. Connolly, we want to
send a team to go and have a

1086
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,240
look at your project in Mali.
And I said, yeah, no problems.

1087
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:25,080
He goes, will you provide the PP
and E for us?

1088
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,480
And I said, yeah, no problems.
We've got boots, hats, whatever

1089
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,000
you want, you know, no problems.
We'll look after them.

1090
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,840
We'll give them escorts and for
transport or whatever and we'll

1091
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:35,440
get it.
In those days, we would have the

1092
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:39,320
police or gendarmer give us sort
of a, you know, sight, you know,

1093
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:42,320
security as well.
And he goes, no, Sir, you don't

1094
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:43,920
understand.
I said, what do I don't

1095
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:47,120
understand?
He said PP and E, I'm going,

1096
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:50,040
what's he talking about?
He goes, you're on flat jackets,

1097
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,200
we need to have flat jackets
and, you know, bulletproof

1098
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,640
vests.
And are your security armed?

1099
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,600
OK.
Well, now listen, mate, you've

1100
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:00,960
got a more chance of getting
shot in downtown Denver.

1101
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:05,840
You are in Mali and we don't
provide bulletproof vests.

1102
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,120
So any and they didn't come.
I wouldn't go.

1103
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:13,120
And I'd worked with Newmont
previously, as you know, and

1104
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:18,520
then I was encouraging my former
colleagues, giving them access

1105
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:22,200
to the data room, giving them
access to information to say if

1106
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:24,400
you want to make a deal or get a
deal done.

1107
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:30,360
You guys have the the run at
this before anyone else and they

1108
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:32,160
couldn't get their their act
together this.

1109
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:36,920
Is part of, I think like the,
the tacit judgment that the

1110
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:40,360
board has in, in selling these
companies as well, because it's,

1111
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:45,000
it's not as black and white as
selling it to the, you know, the

1112
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,280
highest bidder is the best
possible thing you can do for

1113
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,160
shareholders.
You're selling a company for for

1114
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:52,960
script and you're like you
mentioned the returns that that

1115
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:57,520
Papillon has in B2 gold script.
You want to sell it to a

1116
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,040
counterparty who's capable and
funded enough to deliver the

1117
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,040
project and capture the upside
of the rewrite that comes from

1118
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:05,680
delivering that project as well.
You know, if they're if the

1119
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:08,120
values there and abouts and I
think very recently, like we

1120
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:13,000
watched this clearly with
predictive, you know, Perseus

1121
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:17,440
had a higher value offer than
Robex, but the board made a

1122
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,560
judgement and I think it was the
right one to sell to Robex

1123
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,400
because they're going to
capture, you know, a much

1124
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:26,880
cleaner vehicle that has a
greater pro forma positioned on

1125
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:30,960
on Bankan and a team that is is
capable and deployed and ready

1126
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:32,040
to deliver that project.
As well.

1127
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:33,880
I think that's a very good
point.

1128
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,160
Tray you've got you look at the
companies, do they have

1129
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,000
capacity?
Do you know is it a better

1130
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:40,520
transaction if you go with A
rather than B?

1131
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,360
Because, you know, A may have,
as you say, may have the better

1132
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:48,440
offer and then BS got more
growth or opportunity if you

1133
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:51,280
hold the paper, for example,
that, you know, they could

1134
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:55,320
translate into a bigger uplift
in a shorter period of time.

1135
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:58,960
So there's a lot of, you know,
things that play into these

1136
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:01,640
conversations that people don't
know.

1137
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,640
And then you've got to, you
know, the frustration for me at

1138
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:06,120
times.
You've got to educate your own

1139
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:09,160
team.
You know, I had a conversation

1140
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:13,640
where when we did the Waradar
scheme with Capricorn, we had to

1141
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:16,000
sort of whiteboard what is the
scheme?

1142
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:19,080
How long is it going to take?
How many court dates do you

1143
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:20,760
have?
How does it play out?

1144
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,320
You know, and you're sitting
there going, you're a director

1145
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,360
of a public company, you need to
be across this.

1146
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:31,480
You need to understand what
potential outcomes could could

1147
01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:33,120
come in.
So it goes back to one of my

1148
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,040
earlier comments.
When you composition of your

1149
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,600
board, are these people, you
know, battle ready, you know,

1150
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:43,360
are they ready to if a bid comes
in for your company, are they

1151
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:47,720
prepared to, to examine it and
understand it and make an

1152
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:51,400
informed decision?
A lot of times I'd say no, they

1153
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:53,240
people don't understand.
They don't know who the

1154
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:55,360
counterparty is.
For example, they don't

1155
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:57,760
understand what a scheme is, how
long it's going to take.

1156
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:00,160
And you sit there and say you
shouldn't be a public company

1157
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,480
director.
You need to take a, a step back

1158
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,720
and have a deep breath and say
or re educate yourself.

1159
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,600
Get up to speed on that.
I mean, you know, public

1160
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:14,520
companies at anyone at 24/7, at
any time someone could knock on

1161
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:17,640
the door and make an offer to
and put you in play.

1162
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:19,840
So you need to be have the
mindset.

1163
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:21,520
Well, if that comes, what do I
need to do?

1164
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:23,680
What's my duty?
What's my responsibility?

1165
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:28,440
And so just to go back to your
question, JD on, on Papillon,

1166
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:30,520
there were a couple other
parties.

1167
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:34,280
I mean, Goldfields had put some
kind of proposition to me which

1168
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:38,880
quite frankly made me hurry up
the process because it was, it

1169
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:44,560
was not going to get traction.
Taking South African paper, a

1170
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:49,120
bit of cash, participating in
the sort of the, you know,

1171
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:53,960
spending a program over the next
two or three years wasn't a

1172
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,040
proposition for an Aussie
shareholder say I'm going to sit

1173
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:02,200
there and wait three years and
big paper or LSE paper or

1174
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:04,520
whatever it is wasn't going to
happen.

1175
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:07,920
Such a limitation for
Goldfield's ability to do deals

1176
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:11,200
is that JSE script component.
It's OK now when they're making

1177
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,000
so much cash, they can cash big
things, but.

1178
01:04:14,040 --> 01:04:16,960
I think the problem also is some
of the regulations or

1179
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,040
requirements.
As a South African company, you

1180
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:23,520
can only issue like 25% of your
paper on a transaction and other

1181
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:25,120
things.
I don't know all the, you know,

1182
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:28,160
particular structure and things
like that.

1183
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,920
I want to I want to look forward
kind of selfishly and speak

1184
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:34,480
about one that's I find
fascinating a company are now

1185
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:38,920
involved with Stella so we had.
A new shareholders I understand.

1186
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,960
Yes.
Yeah, I, I find it so

1187
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:46,000
fascinating because we had Brett
here and and maybe it's kind of

1188
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,360
illustrative of, of how deals
kind of come together, but Brett

1189
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:52,120
pretty much said they are
looking at plenty of different

1190
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:55,360
options.
The tin universe is, is rather

1191
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:58,440
limited.
You're geographically kind of

1192
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:00,480
close.
So there's, there's a bit of a

1193
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:03,680
dance that takes place to to
maximize shareholder value.

1194
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,120
And I'm just kind of curious how
you think about that with, with

1195
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:08,960
an example compared to all the
other ones we've spoken about in

1196
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:12,040
hindsight, looking forward, you
know, the going through the

1197
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:14,480
steps of drilling out the asset
and these sorts of things.

1198
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,160
And you can speak to it in, in
general, in terms understand

1199
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,400
there's, there's restraints
about it, but I do find it

1200
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,080
fascinating to, to look forward
with a, with a case study.

1201
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:26,520
Yeah, as I said earlier, you've
got to de risk these things.

1202
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:30,000
So you know, if you get a a
resource and a reserve and a

1203
01:05:30,000 --> 01:05:31,920
mine plan, I mean you're de
risking it.

1204
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:35,040
So you're adding value because
one of the conversations I had

1205
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:38,360
with Clive Johnson at B2, you
know, and I went on the board of

1206
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:43,080
B2 for many years and, and, and,
and I always said to Clive, you

1207
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:46,800
know, if you guys had this when
before PAPI on this asset, you

1208
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,760
guys would stuff it up because
they take so long and they over

1209
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,800
engineer and they overspend.
They're not as nimble as as

1210
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:56,080
companies, smaller companies.
So we were able to get this

1211
01:05:56,080 --> 01:06:00,000
thing licensed, permitted, you
know, the Percola project,

1212
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:03,200
environmental permits in place,
investment agreement was the

1213
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:05,720
only thing that was outstanding,
but we had the framework.

1214
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:10,080
So if they'd been with that,
charged with that process, it

1215
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:12,680
would have cost them a lot more
money in time.

1216
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:15,680
And because they would have over
complicated it, we kept it quite

1217
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:18,040
simple.
You know, they have a balance

1218
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:21,200
sheet so the, you know,
government knows they can afford

1219
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:23,880
to pay.
So they will at a position of

1220
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:27,640
negotiation is weaker than ours
because we would say we can't

1221
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:29,680
afford that.
So we, we have to, you know,

1222
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:33,360
have different terms and that's
how, you know, we were able to

1223
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:37,680
move things faster and quicker
and bigger companies can do at

1224
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:42,800
times.
So, you know, that's that to

1225
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,080
summarise, sort of it never
comes at the right time.

1226
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:48,080
You know, you, you, you might be
halfway through a feasibility

1227
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:52,040
study or you're ready to update
a, you know, resource estimate

1228
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:56,080
or a, you know, an economic
study was just being done or a

1229
01:06:56,200 --> 01:06:58,440
new drill results.
And then all of a sudden you,

1230
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:02,600
you lob with an offer or someone
wants to get do a transaction,

1231
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:06,480
say, you know, I I think the
process is, is if you continue

1232
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:10,200
to de risk, do the work to a
very high standard, which is

1233
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:14,000
bulletproof.
It's it's quality and then you

1234
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:15,880
just keep moving it through that
cycle.

1235
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:19,080
There's another element I I want
to hear your thoughts on.

1236
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,240
There is your your control of
the register when you run the

1237
01:07:22,240 --> 01:07:25,880
company because I know some of
the big shareholders there would

1238
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:28,480
be doing a a lot of ringing
around.

1239
01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:31,800
Making for Stella.
In that example, but the example

1240
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:35,240
holds throughout of making sure
any new stock that is placed

1241
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:40,400
goes to the right hands, making
sure they have other

1242
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:44,000
institutions on board with it
and being able to lock up a

1243
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:46,440
significant amount.
And like word is not all that

1244
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,600
different in the fact that the
the group of shareholders like

1245
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:52,400
bandied together and and made
their kind of presence felt in

1246
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,480
that sense.
But how do you deal with that

1247
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,880
and how do you as a company
speak with those investors?

1248
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:01,920
I, I think if you go back, I
mean Papillon, we upgraded the

1249
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:06,280
register significantly and we
took it from sort of more retail

1250
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:08,760
to institutions.
So when the transaction was

1251
01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,800
launched, we probably had 40%
institution on that register.

1252
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:16,800
We had jurisdiction cross, we
had shareholders in North

1253
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,760
America, Europe, Asia and
Australia.

1254
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:25,319
So and both across institutional
and you know were retail

1255
01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:29,040
shareholders and probably the
retail component was maybe 30%

1256
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:33,359
and 70% you know institution in
all those jurisdictions.

1257
01:08:33,359 --> 01:08:37,040
So it was an easier to close out
because the institution saw the

1258
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:41,319
value and B2 was a known entity.
So you knew what you were

1259
01:08:41,319 --> 01:08:43,319
getting with with the
transaction.

1260
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:47,279
Waradar was a bit different.
Waradar had a strong or higher

1261
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:51,120
retail component on the
register, which is challenging.

1262
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:55,200
And you know, Waradar, we had
legacy history as well where it

1263
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:59,120
was a previous Chinese Minova
and over sorry.

1264
01:08:59,120 --> 01:09:01,960
And then previous to that, the
asset came from Minjar.

1265
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:05,359
So there's a lot of emotional
attachment to shareholders as

1266
01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:06,920
well.
I've been there for 10 years.

1267
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:10,240
I paid $0.20.
I'm not going to take 15 kind of

1268
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:12,760
thing, you know.
And, and yeah, you appreciate

1269
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:14,800
those conversations, really
appreciate those comments.

1270
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:20,600
So, so the, the key for me is to
try and upgrade the register.

1271
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,760
You only upgrade your register
when you upgrade the quality of

1272
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:25,680
the project or the quality of
the assets.

1273
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:30,439
And you know you'll get funding
from institutions when you get

1274
01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:32,680
to scale.
And when you get to scale, you

1275
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:35,399
do you risk it and when you do
you risk it and you're moving it

1276
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:38,920
forward through that development
pipeline, you know, and then

1277
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:41,640
you're taking it to that next
sort of investment decision.

1278
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,200
That's the when the register,
when the institutions take

1279
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,319
interest in that register, you
know, when they jump on the

1280
01:09:48,319 --> 01:09:52,120
register at that site and then
the retail guys will stay or go,

1281
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:55,360
But you can raise money and
obviously place it with more

1282
01:09:55,360 --> 01:10:00,160
sort of, you know, where
complimentary parties who will

1283
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:03,320
look at me and say, well, Mark's
maybe thinking about a

1284
01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:05,960
transaction in this.
So I have options.

1285
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:10,640
Then I can stay as an investor.
If he transacts, I can go, I can

1286
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:13,880
hold someone else's paper.
So you're providing options to

1287
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:17,400
rather than say I'm going to be
an investor or the management

1288
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:19,480
wants to build it.
And that's a four year, five

1289
01:10:19,480 --> 01:10:22,720
year time Verizon before I can
see an uplift in my paper.

1290
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:25,720
You got to remember these guys
have got short term, you know,

1291
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,520
mentalities.
They're in for three months, six

1292
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:32,120
months in and out and looking at
200 stocks a day, trying to find

1293
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:34,920
the right one.
Different commodities,

1294
01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:38,240
different, you know, policies in
under their funds or different,

1295
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:41,920
you know, you know, thoughts
about jurisdiction and locations

1296
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:44,920
and people and management teams.
And, you know, there's all these

1297
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:46,440
things that they, they're
playing.

1298
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:50,560
And you know from my point of
view, if you can get good solid

1299
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:54,600
names from institutions on your
register that kind of upgrades

1300
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:56,760
the register and then you have
more chance to, you know,

1301
01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:01,000
getting a successful transaction
outcome was a bit different.

1302
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:03,680
I don't think we had, we
probably didn't know our

1303
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:07,360
register as well as we should
have and that's a function of a

1304
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:10,800
number of different things.
And we had a more retail

1305
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:15,400
component on that register.
As well, if I remember

1306
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,880
correctly, I think earlier in
our chat, like you made some

1307
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:22,040
comment that, you know, it's
the, the, the logical acquirer

1308
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,400
right next door to you that that
doesn't actually end up, you

1309
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:26,760
know, bidding, bidding for
something when it is for, for

1310
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,720
sale.
And if I look at the the cohort

1311
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:33,520
of, of companies that you're
currently chair of, I can see

1312
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:36,360
three very clear ones on that
list where there is a very

1313
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:41,000
logical acquirer next door.
Stella with with metals X is is

1314
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:44,600
so obvious.
MSN with with Pan African is so

1315
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:46,320
obvious.
Your JV partners, there's a

1316
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,760
royalty that can be extinguished
or spun out.

1317
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:57,680
And then astral like gold fields
is is so obvious like so I just

1318
01:11:57,680 --> 01:11:59,440
want to, I just want to remind
you of that statement that you

1319
01:11:59,440 --> 01:12:02,000
said and then and then see if
you can elaborate on any three

1320
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:03,600
of them or all three of them
preferably.

1321
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:07,120
Summarize, I'll say this, I
don't know what the conversation

1322
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:09,960
is happening in the those other
companies boardrooms.

1323
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:13,400
First and foremost, and this is
one of my challenges I have

1324
01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:16,480
sometimes for talking into an
MD, you know, someone would say

1325
01:12:16,480 --> 01:12:18,720
to me, oh, you know, give you an
example and I'll go back to the

1326
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:20,920
Papillon example.
Randgold was right next door.

1327
01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:23,640
Randgold could have bought for
Cola, could have bought

1328
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:26,560
Papillon.
Mark Bristow was running around

1329
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:31,160
London telling people that we
were worth $0.27 a share.

1330
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:35,320
At that time we were about 70 or
$0.80 a share.

1331
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:40,280
And we just put out our PFS.
He's telling people that we're

1332
01:12:40,280 --> 01:12:43,480
worth $0.27 a share.
We sold it for $1.72 a share.

1333
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:49,360
So when we say the most logical,
obvious, you know, synergy of

1334
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:51,920
buyers right next door, they
should buy.

1335
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:55,400
You sit back and you say, why
wouldn't they do it?

1336
01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:58,800
What's the hesitation?
What don't they see that we see?

1337
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:01,800
And so one of the things I say
to the managing directors,

1338
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:03,560
don't, don't ever think like
that.

1339
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:07,160
The guy next door, it might not
be the guy who's going to come

1340
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:09,640
and take a knob.
There's anchoring bias because

1341
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:11,800
they could have moved earlier
and and they've watched it.

1342
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:13,560
Right.
I've seen it so many times where

1343
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:17,800
they'll come back later and go,
oh, I'm going by next door.

1344
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:21,600
We looked at him.
We didn't like it or wasn't to

1345
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:25,280
scale or the CEO of the company,
you know, and I'll talk to

1346
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:28,280
Astral.
The golfers had three CE OS in

1347
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:32,280
the last 4-5 years.
I mean, what is Goldfields now?

1348
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:34,880
Well, the latest one seems more
more open to doing deals in

1349
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:36,080
Australia than the one before
that.

1350
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:39,840
Well, maybe there's an
opportunity, but you know, to be

1351
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:44,080
honest with you, you know, we
sit here and we observe it and

1352
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:46,560
say why wouldn't they just come
and knock on the door and make a

1353
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:48,720
reasonable offer and they can
afford to pay.

1354
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:52,840
I don't I don't run the business
development for gold fields.

1355
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:57,040
So I can't answer the question.
You shouldn't think that thing.

1356
01:13:57,040 --> 01:14:00,280
I come and knock on the door and
make you an offer because based

1357
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:03,040
on what they've done or what
they've transacted and what

1358
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:06,880
they, what they've been doing,
maybe it's, it's not their, you

1359
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:09,840
know, motivation to do that.
Maybe it's not their incentive.

1360
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:11,240
Maybe they don't get their
bonus.

1361
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:14,200
I don't know.
BD I have a different view of BD

1362
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:16,360
guys.
I mean, I, I think they're all

1363
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:18,440
adverse to doing anything
because they're going to lose

1364
01:14:18,440 --> 01:14:19,880
their job if something screws
up.

1365
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:24,880
Like many conferences have a
great lifestyle and pay

1366
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:28,920
themselves well.
And sometimes, you know, do a

1367
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,840
very good job.
Is, is there a way to force the

1368
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:34,800
hand of the, you know, the quote
UN quote logical acquirer in

1369
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:38,520
some respects, because you're
advancing alternatives that that

1370
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:41,640
would be unpalatable to that
logical acquirer.

1371
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:46,240
Like it sounds like a a word.
You were pursuing a range of

1372
01:14:46,240 --> 01:14:49,400
potential alternatives with,
with neighboring parties and and

1373
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:51,400
Capricorn may have been
motivated to move because they

1374
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:52,840
thought you're at risk of doing
something else.

1375
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:57,480
Is that like a reasonable option
at these companies?

1376
01:14:57,920 --> 01:14:59,320
Yeah, I think so.
You've got to look at all

1377
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:00,680
options.
You've got to advance, you've

1378
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:04,800
got to, you know, do the work,
you know, talk to multiple

1379
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:08,720
parties, you know, and that's
that's, you know, the job of the

1380
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:13,680
board is manage those, you know,
tell you manage the management

1381
01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:16,320
to get on and have those
conversations, which makes

1382
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:19,800
sense, you know, want to sort of
put a for sale sign up from day

1383
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:21,680
one.
You want to, you know, start

1384
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:26,000
doing the work to, you know,
drive, you know the value and

1385
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:30,240
where those conversations, lots
of conversations happen, Trevor,

1386
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:32,720
they they don't go anywhere,
although they'll tire kick,

1387
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:34,520
they'll come back and go around
and come back.

1388
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:38,520
Entrench management sometimes
close the door on those

1389
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:40,600
conversations and say no, I'm
not going to have a

1390
01:15:40,600 --> 01:15:41,880
conversation.
I'm going to do what I'm going

1391
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:44,120
to do.
I want to just continue to drill

1392
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:48,200
and, you know, get the resource
bigger, take my time, take my

1393
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:50,720
paycheck and do that.
Well, that's that's a

1394
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:53,440
conversation that frustrates me
as well, because you've got to

1395
01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:55,960
be thinking all the different
options at any time.

1396
01:15:56,720 --> 01:16:00,640
I, you know, those three
companies you talk about, you

1397
01:16:00,640 --> 01:16:03,680
know, is there a logical
different odor to it?

1398
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:06,880
Probably.
Let's just continue to do what

1399
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:08,600
we do.
And that's what I say to our

1400
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:12,760
team is just do the work.
Excuse me, Do the work, do it

1401
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:17,360
well, keep the standard
methodical and upgrade the

1402
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:22,160
quality and then something will
happen, subject to what happens

1403
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:25,760
inside their boardrooms, what
happens to their management.

1404
01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:28,760
So.
Last one from me.

1405
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:33,120
Have you got any thoughts, any
perhaps radical thoughts on

1406
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:36,760
resetting the?
Incentive radical thoughts AD

1407
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:38,040
we.
Can we can be?

1408
01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:40,720
Specific any radical comments of
people that I've got to be

1409
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:42,880
careful I don't.
We've got a, we've got a few

1410
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:46,280
already, but I want to tease one
more out just in terms of

1411
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:52,000
setting the incentives for the
whole industry for, for boards,

1412
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:55,800
for management teams.
Have you got any thoughts of

1413
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:58,480
like this would be an easy fix
to make the the industry a

1414
01:16:58,480 --> 01:17:02,640
better place?
I personally think it's, if you

1415
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:05,840
look at the, you know, and I
used to have these conversations

1416
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:08,200
with Pierre when I was at
Newmont, I mean, it's an

1417
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:11,320
unsustainable business model,
gold mining because the big

1418
01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:15,120
guys, if you're Newmont, you're
producing 6,000,000 oz a year

1419
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:17,720
and you know, you, you've got to
replace your 6,000,000.

1420
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:22,960
So you've got to either acquire
or or find or replenish or

1421
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:28,000
somehow replace 7 million oz for
dilution and recoveries and all

1422
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:30,000
this.
So if you're going to find 7

1423
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:35,160
million oz a year at 100 bucks
an ounce on a discovery cost,

1424
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:38,360
that's 700 million bucks a year
you got to spend on expiration.

1425
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:44,040
That's impossible to do right.
So even the small guys, so it's

1426
01:17:44,040 --> 01:17:47,200
a consolidation industry.
You've the small guys like

1427
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:50,920
Papillon are good and nimble and
fast and we work and we found 5

1428
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:53,480
million oz.
Someone came along and said I'll

1429
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:57,440
take, I'll buy those 5 million
oz at a 150 bucks an ounce and

1430
01:17:57,440 --> 01:18:01,400
pay to 650 million or 700
million, whatever the

1431
01:18:01,480 --> 01:18:05,520
transaction ended up being.
So it's an industry that needs

1432
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:09,280
more consolidation in my view.
And to have more consolidation,

1433
01:18:09,280 --> 01:18:12,200
people have to get out of the
way, Boards have to get out of

1434
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:14,040
the way.
People have to get out of the

1435
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:16,680
way.
Make yourself unemployed and get

1436
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:19,760
into the consolidation mindset.
This is the time that things

1437
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:22,120
should be getting consolidated,
upscaling.

1438
01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:25,720
So an investor has more
opportunity to get a return on

1439
01:18:25,720 --> 01:18:29,920
that investment that he makes or
she makes because they have, you

1440
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:34,960
know, more spinning tops and
more opportunity with operations

1441
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:39,840
or projects to be able to make
sensible sizeable money and

1442
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:43,600
these prices and return that to
the to their investor base.

1443
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:47,920
That's my view.
That's my, my and I've always

1444
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:51,560
maintained that view from early
days at Adamus.

1445
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:55,800
And as you can see, you know
that's what I've, I've sort of

1446
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:59,400
that's my thematic, that's how I
think about public companies.

1447
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,200
I think about public companies
as you need to be thinking about

1448
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:06,400
a transaction all the time when
they're buying or going or

1449
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:09,600
growing.
And I think we need more

1450
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:14,600
consolidation or more M&A in
this industry and clear all the

1451
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:17,560
softer issues, clear all the
sort of the noise in the

1452
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:21,240
background, which should be
challenging their management

1453
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:24,000
teams on a daily basis.
Why haven't we done?

1454
01:19:25,000 --> 01:19:26,720
Why have we done this, or why
have we done that?

1455
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:31,160
That's my personal view.
I want to, I want to wrap up

1456
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:35,400
like we, we sometimes do this
segment called overrated,

1457
01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:37,360
underrated.
We're just ping you with a, you

1458
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:39,840
know, a quip and you just tell
us if it's overrated or

1459
01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:42,520
underrated in, in the sector as
as you see it.

1460
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:45,280
We're kind.
We're kind of going to, you

1461
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:46,320
know, just come up with some of
these.

1462
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:48,160
Things.
So this is like the drip tray

1463
01:19:48,160 --> 01:19:51,720
for Sam Pang on the on the on
the front bar.

1464
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:54,120
So I want me to think about it.
That's.

1465
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:56,880
That's what you should call it,
the drip tray or something like

1466
01:19:56,880 --> 01:19:57,800
that.
You could steal that.

1467
01:19:57,800 --> 01:19:59,080
That's a Ripper.
Here we go.

1468
01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:03,080
We'll see how you like it.
Discount rates for West African

1469
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:05,200
gold miners.
Overrated.

1470
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:09,280
Underrated.
Overrated.

1471
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:17,200
Mining conferences.
Too many of them, yes.

1472
01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:19,520
Is that the problem?
I can overrate it.

1473
01:20:20,120 --> 01:20:21,240
I thought you might be in that
camp.

1474
01:20:24,040 --> 01:20:27,520
Long term incentive plans or
short term incentive plans.

1475
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:28,800
Frustrating.
Right.

1476
01:20:32,040 --> 01:20:35,600
Ordering my performance is a
frustration I have or non

1477
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:39,880
performance and I I always have
this story.

1478
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:43,960
I always say my analogy is a bit
like the Hollywood, you know,

1479
01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:48,280
movies, you know industry.
You've got AD grade actor with

1480
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:51,960
AB grade movie that get gets
paid a grade money.

1481
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:55,720
Jean-Claude Van Damme Can anyone
ever remember a good movie he's

1482
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:58,360
ever made?
He's AD grade actor with AB

1483
01:20:58,440 --> 01:21:01,200
grade movie got paid incredible
money.

1484
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:03,600
It's the same in this industry
at.

1485
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:06,800
Times I like that.
What?

1486
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:08,880
What do you make of broker
research?

1487
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:13,600
I, I like research.
I think it's, it's an education

1488
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:16,280
tool for and it helps with
companies.

1489
01:21:16,280 --> 01:21:18,880
I'm probably old school, but
I've, I've, you know, I come

1490
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:21,240
through the school.
If you know, get the research,

1491
01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:26,240
you know, research talks to, you
know, investors, investors

1492
01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:29,680
obviously talk amongst
themselves and help are helpful

1493
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:33,280
for the companies.
Obviously the, the research, the

1494
01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:37,240
problem sometimes is the, you
know, the, the person writing

1495
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:40,280
the research.
It's kind of without a lot of

1496
01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:44,040
detail or a lot of substance
because I haven't worked in the

1497
01:21:44,040 --> 01:21:47,600
industry.
So, you know, I've got a lot of

1498
01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:52,680
kind of battle scars.
So I've probably seen and done a

1499
01:21:52,960 --> 01:21:56,960
lot of stuff on research and,
and I think it's it's an

1500
01:21:56,960 --> 01:22:00,560
important part of the industry
and it's helpful.

1501
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:05,640
ESG overrated.
Underrated.

1502
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:11,920
Most definitely hyper rated and
most definitely it's, it's

1503
01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:16,200
something that frustrates me
because I always say you should

1504
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:19,280
just have that mindset.
It's part of your business.

1505
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:23,160
You don't need to go and tell
the world, the industry what

1506
01:22:23,160 --> 01:22:26,360
you're doing and how many trees
you're planting and how many

1507
01:22:26,360 --> 01:22:29,720
people you're employing.
You just do it because this

1508
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:33,720
industry regulates itself as and
if you're not doing the right

1509
01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:35,480
thing, guess what?
You won't have a license to

1510
01:22:35,480 --> 01:22:38,720
operate.
So you just do the right thing.

1511
01:22:39,280 --> 01:22:42,160
Because if you're tipping
cyanide down the drain, you

1512
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:44,600
know, next to a village you're
working, you're not going to be

1513
01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:45,920
working there very long, are
you?

1514
01:22:46,520 --> 01:22:49,400
So just do it.
Just get it done.

1515
01:22:49,760 --> 01:22:52,280
Don't need to announce it, don't
need to market it.

1516
01:22:52,520 --> 01:22:57,120
Just get it done.
What do you think of that's

1517
01:22:57,320 --> 01:22:59,840
overrated, Underrated in
quotation marks?

1518
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:03,920
Almost independent non exec
directors, board members.

1519
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:07,920
Rated yeah, yeah, you know it's
a contradiction because

1520
01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:10,760
investors say well how much
equity you have in this business

1521
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:14,480
and you say well you telling me
yesterday I shouldn't have any

1522
01:23:14,480 --> 01:23:18,720
because I'm independent but I.
My thinking is directly

1523
01:23:18,720 --> 01:23:21,760
impacting or potentially could
impact the share price, which

1524
01:23:21,760 --> 01:23:26,400
aligns with your thinking.
So you know, you're a director,

1525
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:30,120
that's it.
Holding equity is a, is a good

1526
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:33,080
thing.
That's why companies who who

1527
01:23:33,080 --> 01:23:37,000
have executive directors or
board members with equity and

1528
01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:40,400
are successful because I think
like their share, their first

1529
01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:41,600
and foremost, they're a
shareholder.

1530
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:44,120
They should think like that.
And then you're going to make a

1531
01:23:44,120 --> 01:23:45,880
decision which benefits the
shareholders.

1532
01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:52,600
So I just termed titles and
whatsoever rubbish executive

1533
01:23:52,720 --> 01:23:55,800
chairs.
Got to be careful here.

1534
01:23:55,800 --> 01:24:01,600
I'm not an executive chair.
There's some fantastic examples,

1535
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:04,720
a good executive chest and two
of them I've mentioned Mark

1536
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:10,320
Clark is is is is a seriously
high grade Jake, Jake Klein high

1537
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:13,040
grade Richie Hyde done a done a
great job.

1538
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:18,840
Yeah, horses for courses, you
know, I think is important and,

1539
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:25,480
and I think retention of that
knowledge and that IP through

1540
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:30,040
phases of the, the cycle of the
business is important.

1541
01:24:30,040 --> 01:24:34,240
But I would guarantee if you
spoke to those 3 individuals at

1542
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:36,240
times, they probably don't know
when they're going to have to

1543
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:40,840
jump off at some stage, leave
the company, trying to leave the

1544
01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:44,600
company at some stage.
And, you know, I think that's

1545
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:47,880
horses, you know, horses for
courses and different times you

1546
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:52,440
may need an executive.
Shareholder activism.

1547
01:24:53,960 --> 01:24:55,480
Well, I've witnessed it, so I
yeah, I've.

1548
01:24:56,200 --> 01:24:59,520
Got 6 many forms you've.
Got I've got some battle scars

1549
01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:03,840
on that.
I mean, you know, it's, it's

1550
01:25:05,320 --> 01:25:08,960
buying an equity is an
interesting, interesting, you

1551
01:25:08,960 --> 01:25:10,880
know, conversation first and
foremost.

1552
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:13,760
I mean, you might have
shareholder activism from a

1553
01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:17,760
private equity group.
Their investment model is so

1554
01:25:17,760 --> 01:25:20,000
different from a retail
investor.

1555
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:25,440
You know, I remember years ago
we were transacting one of my

1556
01:25:25,440 --> 01:25:29,760
companies and I had APE Group on
the register and they basically

1557
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:35,120
said came back to me and we had
an offer, cash offer and to buy

1558
01:25:35,440 --> 01:25:38,720
the company.
And then the offer got turned a

1559
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:40,000
bit.
It was cash and paper.

1560
01:25:40,120 --> 01:25:44,320
And the, the retail private
equity guy says to me, Mark, we

1561
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:47,920
can't take that.
It was a 45% premium at the time

1562
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:51,480
for an undeveloped gold asset in
West Africa.

1563
01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:55,480
You can think about the company
it was and it was, it wasn't OK.

1564
01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:59,960
It was 1 back previously Toro
Gold, 45% premium.

1565
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:03,960
This private equity investor
said to me, Mike, we can't take

1566
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:04,760
that.
I said, why is that?

1567
01:26:04,760 --> 01:26:06,920
It's a 45% premium to the
current ship.

1568
01:26:06,920 --> 01:26:11,360
I said I've promised my investor
2 1/2 times his money and I

1569
01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:14,400
said, well, this asset on
today's gold price is not going

1570
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:15,880
to give you 2 1/2 times your
money.

1571
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:18,000
He said, well, we're not going
to sign up for the deal.

1572
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:22,200
Then I said you'll need a buddy,
$3000 gold price at the time or

1573
01:26:22,200 --> 01:26:24,480
$2000 gold, U.S. dollar gold
price.

1574
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:27,680
It was 1000 bucks at the time.
I said how are you going to get

1575
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:29,480
that if the gold price doesn't
go?

1576
01:26:29,480 --> 01:26:31,800
It was constrained because it
was of it's size.

1577
01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:35,720
I'm still waiting for the
answer.

1578
01:26:37,080 --> 01:26:39,840
So there's a problem.
So shareholder activists,

1579
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:42,880
whether the whoever it is
private equity, individuals,

1580
01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:46,920
institutional, I mean, it's,
it's, it's it's.

1581
01:26:46,920 --> 01:26:49,320
Like different horizons, but
they're, they're all still

1582
01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:53,160
owners of the business, right?
Yeah, I mean, you hope that, you

1583
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:56,560
know, you can get the majority
as we did with Capricorn and

1584
01:26:56,560 --> 01:26:59,360
Florida.
We got 90% of the majority to

1585
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:01,200
vote in favour of the
transaction.

1586
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:07,480
So ultimately, you know, you,
you want to get to that position

1587
01:27:07,480 --> 01:27:09,680
where everyone aligns and thinks
the same.

1588
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:14,760
I, I, I respect people's views,
but I also have a frustration

1589
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:18,400
where you've got to distill it
down and coming from a cost

1590
01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:21,760
background or cost, you know,
accounting background.

1591
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:24,240
I mean, there's sometimes
there's such a disconnect

1592
01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:29,040
between what a shareholder wants
and expects and what the asset

1593
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:32,600
is worth.
And it's so far apart, it's

1594
01:27:32,600 --> 01:27:35,200
illogical.
Sometimes doesn't forget the

1595
01:27:35,240 --> 01:27:37,200
coal price.
Just forget the fundamentals.

1596
01:27:37,200 --> 01:27:40,800
You got to, you know, a million
ounce full body at, you know,

1597
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:43,720
half a gram.
It's not a million ounce full

1598
01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:47,800
body at 2.5g.
So it's a long disconnect

1599
01:27:47,800 --> 01:27:50,800
between and it's stuck in, you
know, Kazakhstan rather than

1600
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:54,560
stuck in, you know, your queue,
for example.

1601
01:27:54,560 --> 01:27:58,440
So you've got so many different,
you know, views of value.

1602
01:27:58,640 --> 01:28:03,440
It's very, very challenging.
Operational people on boards.

1603
01:28:03,480 --> 01:28:04,280
Overrated.
Underrated.

1604
01:28:06,560 --> 01:28:09,320
That's a really good one.
I would say underrated.

1605
01:28:09,760 --> 01:28:11,640
I would say as.
Long as they don't overreach.

1606
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:15,520
Fingers out.
I was in, fingers out.

1607
01:28:16,160 --> 01:28:19,680
So I think it's important and
again go back to my commentary

1608
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:23,880
about evolution of the cycle of
the company, it's important that

1609
01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:27,440
we have the right fit at the
right time of that evolution.

1610
01:28:27,920 --> 01:28:30,080
You would have seen a fair few
of these independent expert

1611
01:28:30,080 --> 01:28:37,960
reports.
Evil necessity at times, yeah.

1612
01:28:39,440 --> 01:28:42,000
You know you can manage them.
I think is the important you're.

1613
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:43,840
Not independent man, you know
what I mean.

1614
01:28:45,320 --> 01:28:47,040
Stupidly named if you can manage
them.

1615
01:28:48,880 --> 01:28:50,360
Well, there's an independent
director.

1616
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:52,320
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you know.

1617
01:28:52,440 --> 01:28:53,960
Let's just.
If you have to call something

1618
01:28:53,960 --> 01:28:55,240
independent, it's not
independent.

1619
01:28:56,200 --> 01:28:58,520
Yeah, It should just be called
an expert's report.

1620
01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:01,280
Yeah, expert.
But what are they working

1621
01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:03,520
between?
Sort of train tracks or tracks

1622
01:29:03,520 --> 01:29:06,680
of what they can and you know,
have been their their brief,

1623
01:29:06,680 --> 01:29:09,440
their scope.
What is say at times you know

1624
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:13,280
how how wide is their brief or
how wide is their points of

1625
01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:19,240
reference say that necessary but
you know slow and painful at

1626
01:29:19,240 --> 01:29:26,080
times as well?
Providing guidance to the

1627
01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:31,280
market.
That that is such a good

1628
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:35,320
question.
Well, I don't like aspirational

1629
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:39,400
goals and people who talk in
aspirational, you know,

1630
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:43,160
production numbers five years
away or six years away by the

1631
01:29:43,160 --> 01:29:45,480
end of the decade.
Commentary it it's worked well

1632
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:47,960
in some takeover battles.
Yeah.

1633
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:49,760
Exploration targets for how far
in?

1634
01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:52,200
The blue sky, blue sky, how blue
is the sky?

1635
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:58,360
Yeah, I guidance is, is very,
it's it's very interesting

1636
01:29:58,360 --> 01:30:02,120
because what I determine is
guidance can be different to

1637
01:30:02,120 --> 01:30:05,400
someone else.
And then the regulator may say,

1638
01:30:05,400 --> 01:30:09,360
Mark, you can't say that because
it might be too promotional, but

1639
01:30:09,640 --> 01:30:12,440
you'll count it the judge.
So another couple of peer may

1640
01:30:12,440 --> 01:30:15,320
say exactly the same and then
have no questions or no

1641
01:30:15,320 --> 01:30:19,320
challenges would say, say it's,
it's hard because you know,

1642
01:30:19,320 --> 01:30:22,840
different regulators see it in
different lights for the, for

1643
01:30:22,840 --> 01:30:26,080
the company involved.
And so for say, yeah, guidance

1644
01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:29,960
is, is not an easy thing to do.
And you, you know, you put out

1645
01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:33,360
good guidance, share price could
react negatively.

1646
01:30:33,360 --> 01:30:36,760
You put out no guidance or you
put out, you know, positive

1647
01:30:36,760 --> 01:30:40,240
guidance to change a negative
guidance.

1648
01:30:40,240 --> 01:30:44,640
So it's, it's, it's challenging
at the time of day, it's put out

1649
01:30:44,640 --> 01:30:49,280
cycle, good price, whatever it's
necessary, you got to do it.

1650
01:30:49,280 --> 01:30:52,680
But I just think it needs to be
within a certain band limit and

1651
01:30:52,680 --> 01:30:54,800
guidance.
For example, you know, when

1652
01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:57,080
someone comes out and says our
capital cost is going to be

1653
01:30:57,080 --> 01:31:03,160
between 300 and 500 million, is
it 301 or is it 499?

1654
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:05,320
Because that's a big spread
between the two.

1655
01:31:06,520 --> 01:31:09,480
I go back to my inmate days when
I worked with Richard Ross, who

1656
01:31:09,480 --> 01:31:11,600
was our CFI.
If I said to him, Richard, the

1657
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:15,520
cost is going to be 300 to 5 and
I would have been fired.

1658
01:31:16,080 --> 01:31:19,960
You know, if he said it's not
with 300 to 325, you'd better

1659
01:31:19,960 --> 01:31:23,000
come back with the reason why
it's not within that band.

1660
01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:26,040
It's just rubbish.
Someone says the capital costs

1661
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:30,040
between 300 to 500, that's
nonsense to me.

1662
01:31:30,640 --> 01:31:33,320
Nonsense.
The operating costs between 1000

1663
01:31:33,320 --> 01:31:37,640
and 1500.
I, I I don't accept that.

1664
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:41,200
But this has been a fascinating
discussion.

1665
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:45,040
It'd be be cool to see if some
of your perspectives are adopted

1666
01:31:45,040 --> 01:31:47,440
through through the industry.
Let's let's kind of hope so.

1667
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:50,680
But in any case, I I reckon some
of the listeners out there would

1668
01:31:50,680 --> 01:31:52,720
have we would have taken a lot
from this conversation.

1669
01:31:53,840 --> 01:31:56,360
At a minimum, they'll be They'll
be pretty astute next time they

1670
01:31:56,400 --> 01:31:59,240
see Mark Connelly appointed as
not exact chair.

1671
01:32:00,040 --> 01:32:03,840
I hope so.
I'm more than happy to, to, to

1672
01:32:03,840 --> 01:32:06,120
step in and help where I can.
But you know, it's been,

1673
01:32:06,920 --> 01:32:09,200
hopefully there's a bit of
background, bit of insight.

1674
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:13,080
But you know, the one thing I
always say about my people say

1675
01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:14,320
to me, you know, what do you
like?

1676
01:32:14,440 --> 01:32:16,760
Intellectual curiosity is, is
key for me.

1677
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:20,120
When you're looking at board
members or teams or whatever,

1678
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:24,040
they got to have that high
intellectual curiosity and and

1679
01:32:24,040 --> 01:32:26,960
that's a sort of a non
negotiable fact that's, you

1680
01:32:26,960 --> 01:32:29,800
know, it's not the old comment
because experience in Africa was

1681
01:32:29,800 --> 01:32:31,560
always, we always do it this
way.

1682
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:34,560
So we have done it that way.
I said, well, that's not an

1683
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:37,800
excuse for me or reason why we
would continue to do it that

1684
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:39,520
way.
Find it.

1685
01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:42,360
If some find it, what better way
or a different way or

1686
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:46,360
alternative way to do things.
You've got to continue to

1687
01:32:46,360 --> 01:32:50,280
challenge that.
I think that's a fantastic point

1688
01:32:50,280 --> 01:32:51,320
to leave it.
Thanks for your time.

1689
01:32:51,800 --> 01:32:53,040
Most appreciated.
Thanks.

1690
01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:55,840
Decades of wisdom to be gleaned
from that one, don't you think,

1691
01:32:55,840 --> 01:32:59,000
Trev?
Yeah, lots, lots, lots of wisdom

1692
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:03,000
from, from Mark I Yeah, he's a
name that you read about a lot

1693
01:33:03,000 --> 01:33:04,920
because he's just done a lot of
ASX announcements.

1694
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:08,800
But first time that we've, we've
met Mark in person and he, yeah,

1695
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:10,840
I think there's, there's a lot
to be said for the way that he

1696
01:33:10,840 --> 01:33:13,840
looks at the industry, the way
he's kind of pragmatic about

1697
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:17,880
governance and, and, and yeah,
the philosophy that kind of

1698
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:19,440
informs those, those sort of
decisions.

1699
01:33:19,440 --> 01:33:21,400
So, yeah, thanks a lot for
joining us, Mark.

1700
01:33:21,400 --> 01:33:24,040
I I really like that one.
Agreed, keen to hear what the

1701
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:26,080
money miners think of our chat
with Mark.

1702
01:33:26,120 --> 01:33:28,960
And a huge thank you to Sandy
Ground Support, Exceed Capital

1703
01:33:28,960 --> 01:33:33,000
Focus Platform by Market Tech
and Intralinks Hudaru.

1704
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:36,280
Hudaru Now remember, I'm an
idiot.

1705
01:33:36,520 --> 01:33:38,960
JD is an idiot.
If you thought any of this was

1706
01:33:38,960 --> 01:33:41,520
anything other than
entertainment, you're an idiot

1707
01:33:41,880 --> 01:33:43,000
and you need to read out a
disclaimer.