Lessons from Building 6 Gold Mines (Matt Wilcox)

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Mate, we've got a a real treat
today because we've got we've

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got Matt Wilcox with us now.
Matt Wilcox, if the money miners

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haven't heard of him before a
they should just he's a

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tremendously back able dude.
As you'll see from this

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conversation is a list of
accomplishments is is enormous,

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and I think you get a sense that
this kind of guy just get stuff

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done. 100% he knows what he's
talking about.

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It just sort of wreaks the
competence, doesn't it?

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You know, the the track record
is there.

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It's why the shareholders who
have backed him in at Robex back

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the deal with PDI have and I'm
excited to see what comes next.

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I'm excited to delve into the
history Tieto he's been at Wolf

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Nord gold build 6 mines in last
14 years.

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I think he said there.
So there's a there's a heap to

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be learned from this one.
All those mines that are that

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he's built, JD, they're in
Africa.

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West Africa mostly, actually.
No one in Russia anyway.

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Africa.
Why do I bring it up?

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Because you and I, mate, we're
heading back to the great

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continent of Africa very soon.
We are indeed, mate.

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We're going to the great
continent of Africa again.

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We've tied up a bunch of side
visits.

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We're going to see some
spectacular operations, some

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operations that are actually
mentioned in its episode.

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We're very excited.
But mate, there's a window

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that's free.
There is a.

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Small window a couple of days.
We've got a couple days free.

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We would love to go and see a
few more operations in the

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Joburg area.
So we're looking at you, Impala,

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Valterra, African Rainbow,
Sibanye.

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Get in touch.
Gold fields, Yep, mate.

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If we can, if we can visit some
of those operations, if you,

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money mine are listening, can
get us into one of those

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operations through the front
door or the back door, we would

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be delighted.
We'd be very grateful.

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Send us an e-mail to
gc@moneyofmine.com, specifically

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if you reckon you can get us
into those, any of the mines in

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the Joe Berg area there in
literally one week, like 10 days

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time.
Now to our conversation with

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Matt.
Matt Wilcox, welcome to Money of

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Mine.
Thanks.

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Very much thanks for having me.
We, we, we, we're delighted that

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you're here mate, because
between JD and I, we've got the

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collective experience of
building 0 mines, but just

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having you in the room
collectively the three of us

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have have built at least seven.
I think so.

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Maybe more, I guess, depending
on, yeah, how far back you're

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going, but yeah.
It's a, it's a great track

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record, Matt.
So we, we came to unpack that

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and get into some of the recent,
the deal you've done potential

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deals in future, but we've got
to talk about a shareholder of

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yours.
One of the first times we we

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came across Robex and and what
you guys are doing a a

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shareholder of yours got in
touch with us and said, I bet my

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house on Rovex.
I know who that is.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's.

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One of my ex employees,
actually, he's an electrical

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engineer that used to work for
me at Leifa.

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So I was GM there and he was, he
was like a electrical

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Superintendent.
He's he's pretty mad, dude.

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Pretty intense.
But for the record, he sent a

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screenshot.
He had bet the the equivalent of

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an Australian house on you.
And it had at the at the time

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that he shared it with us, it
was, it was looking like it was

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coming good and and still going.
Strong, I think we're in for the

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same amount of money like cash
wise.

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So like, yeah, I, I bet a pretty
big chunk of myself I've made

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most of my salaries or more than
my salaries in the last sort of

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seven years just investing in
the, the mines I've been

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building and, and the projects
companies I've been working for.

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So.
So as Trev kind of touched on

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there, I think 6 minds so far
from like the, the, the top

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level that you and the the guys
have put together.

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And there's some beforehand
with, with your engineering kind

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of days.
But what's the the the appeal

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with with West Africa you can't
and Russia you can't get enough

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of it.
Oh, look, I think once you start

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like you, you fall into one, you
fall into a second one, and then

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you're all of a sudden sort of
an African veteran, right?

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And then, you know, then after
7:00 or so, that's all you know,

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like, so it's it to me like
it's, it's the easiest place to

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build a mine really.
You know, we've got our system

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set up, we've got, we know our
contractors, we know like where

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we source our staff from, you
know, and things just move.

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You've got to be really diligent
about your planning.

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You've got to make sure
everything's ordered in a timely

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basis because there's no last
minute, you know what I mean?

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Like everything has to be on a
ship or a plane like at one

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point or other.
There's very little that's

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supplied locally.
So you've got to be really

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diligent to make sure
everything's on site and then

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you can normally turn around,
you know, pretty much on time

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and on budget.
There's there's a completely

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different context to building
operation in, in Western

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Australia versus in West Africa,
I'm sure.

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But there's there's like there's
geological gifts that come from

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the fact that a lot there are,
there are, you know, much more

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readily available deposits to be
to be mined for the first time,

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right.
I guess so I, there's also, I

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guess we don't have to suffer
with the same labour shortage as

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you do in Australia as well.
You know, they're, they're

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really like, I say, you know, to
get 40 electricians on a site,

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you've got to steal them from
somewhere else, right?

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It's, they're working everywhere
in Australia, like no, no

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electricians out of work.
So whereas in, you know, in

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Africa you've got a global pool
and you've got a whole W African

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pool to draw from.
So it just gives you a big

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boost.
But you know, some of the

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deposits, you know, I mean, how
often do you get a for coal or,

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you know, even a bank hand, you
know, like they're just

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fantastic, you know, big thick
roofs of gold and pretty much

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untapped and unknown.
And there's so many more out

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there yet to find.
Like it's it's chronically under

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drilled the whole of West
Africa.

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And you know where everyone
seems to invest money in the

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drill bit, you generally find
something after amount of time,

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especially at this coal price.
So you mentioned Bancan.

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I don't think we can wait too
long before we we start talking

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about the the battle for Bancan.
Yeah, it's an interesting one,

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especially Yeah.
Especially.

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Look, well, we, we sort of, it
was on and off again.

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It, it went for six months
before the market even heard

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about it.
You know, we were sort of

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talking about it.
You know, there was all these

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interest about it in the
Lundeens and XI Jin coming in

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and going out.
You know it was.

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As she is putting their foot on
predictive.

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Much earlier from that, well, I
mean, to be pretty honest, we,

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we, we started, we started doing
due diligence over aerobics when

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we were still with Tieto.
It was just going to be a

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acquisition asset to defeat the
Chinese bid, which is hostile

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and, and to get there.
And so we looked at it for

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months, you know, we'd been
through it, we'd been aside

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actually.
And then on the way back home on

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the flight and this this
actually happened like the

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Chinese, we saw the flight, the
Chinese held 7% at the end of

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the flight.
They hold 45.

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You know, that they they all the
China shareholders got the call

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that they had to sell into the
the bid.

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And we were like, well, like we
started a WhatsApp group as you

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do.
And we're like, this is the

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plan.
And that's, that's just pitch

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the board that we take over the
company.

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And it was like, yeah, yeah, you
know, there was a few brokers on

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the call that were like pretty
disappointed they weren't

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getting a fee.
Like it was, you know, it wasn't

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going on.
Then eventually they warmed

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around to it and we, I sort of
pitched the board maybe a week

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later, I said, look, this isn't
going to work as an acquisition,

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but look, I can come in,
recapitalize it and, and build

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your mind.
And, but to do that, I'm

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probably going to have to get
rid of most of the board and,

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and reset the board and bring in
a new management team.

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And I think they took two days
to think about it and came back

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to me.
Yep, absolutely.

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We'll do that.
And I left yet on a Friday

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afternoon, started a roadshow on
a Saturday and went through

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North America, Europe, Yeah.
And back in AUS, it was two

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weeks of just frenetic, like
activities and meetings.

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And then, yeah, we recapitalized
it with about 120 million CAD.

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And then, yeah, we'll move
forward to do an IPO in

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Australia.
And yeah, the rest is history.

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That's only barely.
It's not even 20 months ago now.

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So it's pretty.
Recent.

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It wasn't all that long ago.
Yeah, there was a company

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trading on ASX.
It's.

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And in that time we've IPO,
we've done merger.

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We you know, we've we've built a
mine.

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It's been it's been a pretty
busy.

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It's been active, it's been
active.

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The the I want to go back to a
few of those points you talked

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about, but we'll start with the,
the, the recent acquisition of

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of of predictive, which which
effectively let's let's you

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consolidate bank and where there
are synergies.

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It it was, it was a pretty, a
pretty, yeah, pretty fierce

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tussle in the end between
between Perseus and and and

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yourselves and it.
Was at the end I guess and

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that's what it came down to was
our shareholders of the

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shareholders predictive wanted
that wanted us more than the

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Perseus stock I guess.
So that was, and that kind of

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happened late on a Sunday night
and I and I used the word crazy

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Italian hedge fund managers in
an interview with The

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Australian.
I probably should have done that

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now just said it live.
But you know, those guys are

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pretty cool when they'll
understand.

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But they and they, they sort of
called me late on the Sunday

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afternoon.
To me it was we're like, we lost

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this now, like, but you know,
they weren't even shareholders

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of Robex.
And you know, they sort of said,

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you know, we really want to
support you to make this deal.

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And they're like, this is the
numbers you have to move to.

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And I'm like, I can't move to
those numbers.

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And he's like, well, can you
move a little bit?

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I'm like probably move a little
bit.

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I'll have to talk to our biggest
shareholders.

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I'll have to get this signed off
and then I'll have to obviously

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go to my board.
And that was I think 3:00 in the

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afternoon on Sunday.
And by maybe 9 that night, we

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had a board resolution.
We were, we pitched it again and

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that was accepted by all the
shareholders.

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And I think I had about 45% of
their shareholders agree to it.

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And I'd say only half of those
shareholders were Robec

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shareholders.
So though it's good to me, it

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was, you know, a good testament
to like, I guess the experience

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of my team and stuff that they
wanted us to build it so.

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It, it was, it was a pretty
unique, yeah, a unique

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confluence of circumstances all
around that deal.

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I mean, the, the, the whole way
it was structured, there was no

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vote of predictive shareholders.
There was only, it was only

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aerobics vote.
And, and yeah, regardless, like

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you said from from the, the, the
actual kind of shareholder

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polling, there was still an
enormous desire from the

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predictive like board and
shareholders to, to push ahead

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with a, a, you know, a deal that
was effectively a lower value,

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but a combination with Robex as
opposed to a higher value with

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purchase because because there
was there was like the.

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It depends how you you assign
value, right?

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Like at the time the share
market value, if you look at

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what happened in the market two
weeks after that, I guess the

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the market revalued the deal at
a higher rate.

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So, yeah, so it's look, I think,
you know, as a as a combined

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00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,320
company, we're going to have two
long life assets that are in

223
00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,320
their infancy, you know, and
starting up in their halcyon

224
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,560
days.
And you know, the the

225
00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,800
shareholders saw more value in
that than than, you know, going

226
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,840
to a company that's probably
some of its best days are behind

227
00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,800
it in terms of its assets.
And I'm sure they'll get more

228
00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,720
like, I don't want to say
anything bad about them, but

229
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,880
like it's, you know, having 2
long life assets and, and you

230
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:17,480
know, hub that sort of 400,000
plus oz and 10 million resource

231
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,920
oz like is, is something that's
valued, I guess.

232
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,840
And it, they also see it as it's
a potential acquisition from a,

233
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,760
a Tier 1 miner later on.
You know, that's, that's the

234
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,240
kind of asset a lot of miners
will say that's the only thing

235
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,320
we're interested in like 350,000
plus ounces plus 10 years of

236
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,840
mine life over this period.
And that's essentially what

237
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:40,240
we'll have in Guinea by the end
of this.

238
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,520
Seeing you, you made the
comparison before you know, you

239
00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,640
get these odd bodies like a like
a bang handle, like a for COLA.

240
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,400
I remember the the first time
predictive came on our radar,

241
00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,440
JD, we were both working at
Argonaut and there was a, a

242
00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,680
broker bang on the table on on
predictive pretty hard.

243
00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:59,000
And he was like just buying as
much as he could.

244
00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:01,840
And he was like, he's the best
thing I've seen since Papillon.

245
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,800
You know, the only thing that's
set to come out is met.

246
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,720
You know, he was just, he was so
convinced that this was this was

247
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,400
one of those pretty, pretty rare
ore bodies that comes.

248
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,360
There's certainly some big Dick
intersections, you know, and

249
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,600
it's like just just the geometry
of the ore body is beautiful as

250
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,280
well.
It sits on that sort of geotech

251
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:18,640
angle.
So you can mine it.

252
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,440
Half the pit will be waste, half
the pit will be ore like you

253
00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,240
know, and it it's just it's a
minus dream, you know, like

254
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,240
you'll be blasting all all
blasts, all waste blasts to be

255
00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,040
almost no dilution across it.
It's big, it's thick, you know,

256
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,560
and then the underground is is
relatively simple as well, once

257
00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:35,920
you get down to it.
So, you know, we're still

258
00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,120
reoptimizing how we're probably
going to actually execute that,

259
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:41,600
I guess both from a construction
point of view and, you know, a

260
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,920
mining point of view.
But the pit may get slightly

261
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,880
bigger and the underground may
come in like later, but it's,

262
00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,760
it's, it's a fantastic old body.
Nobody knows the end of it.

263
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,840
There's still a lot more to find
on the permit and there's still

264
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,880
a lot more to find at Canyero.
So I, I pretty much bet

265
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,840
everything I had that those both
those mines will be running in

266
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,800
20 years from now, you know, and
both producing good amounts of

267
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,720
gold, so.
Maybe we should have seen it

268
00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,760
coming at your Adu talk you gave
I think in September of of last

269
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,720
year, Matt, you said got to keep
the team busy, you know, and

270
00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,520
Canyero was just just about done
and less than a month later, I

271
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,520
want to say you came out with
the deal does that I mean it

272
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:22,640
was.
Actually going to be that

273
00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,920
morning, but like it's sort of
negotiations fell apart at the

274
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,200
very last minute.
So it was it was due to be

275
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,840
announced and we, we'd come all
the way.

276
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:35,960
So it was and then it sort of
yeah, it, it died down a bit,

277
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:41,520
you know, and then it, it came
back on just after after Beaver

278
00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,120
Creek in Denver.
So we we're back together and we

279
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,560
really weren't expecting a
Percy's bid until they actually

280
00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:51,320
bid.
I guess I was, you know, you

281
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,240
know, Jeff had been very public
that it was overpriced.

282
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,920
It was.
And you know, I think if Jeff

283
00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,520
was there, he wouldn't have bid.
So it was but you know, it was a

284
00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,880
new management term at Percy's.
We saw what we saw.

285
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,480
So it's good to come through it,
come through one with a win

286
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,000
after like, I guess losing
together to the Chinese, you

287
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,440
know, in a very hostile action
that we actually came out sort

288
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,680
of Trump's in our M and a
contest, I guess.

289
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:18,120
Trav, I've got a quick one for
you.

290
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:19,560
Have you heard of Metals Hub
yet?

291
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,000
Go on.
It is essentially the digital

292
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,120
layer for the entire raw
materials trade.

293
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,160
So we're talking about metals,
minerals, ores, the whole lot.

294
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,840
I have, in fact, heard of Metals
Hub.

295
00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:31,960
JD you know why?
Because they're massive.

296
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,560
They are.
I think of it like this, this

297
00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:36,360
marketplace with two way
traffic.

298
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,440
You've got, you've got the
miners on there like Lion Town,

299
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,480
Anglo, they're running these
competitive sales to improve net

300
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,840
back and margins, sort of
selling through raw materials.

301
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,080
And then on the other side,
you've got the buyers on there,

302
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,360
the Auto Compass, Star, Hi Mags
of the world running these

303
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,240
structured tenders to get their
costs down using this.

304
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:57,880
Platform and Meadows Hub has the
scale already.

305
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,400
We're talking about a platform
with 3000 buyers, 380 different

306
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,560
material categories, over 7000
transactions a year at the

307
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:06,880
minute.
It's not just some early stage

308
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,400
idea right now.
That's, that's, that's actually

309
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,440
real liquidity, JD.
Exactly.

310
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,880
I, I think I'm going to upgrade
how I'm currently selling and

311
00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,240
procuring metals because I'm,
I'm doing it via e-mail and 50

312
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,240
BCC chains.
So I'm going to upgrade now, JD.

313
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,440
Very, very dated mate.
Get on board.

314
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,080
Check out the
platform@meadowshub.com forward

315
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,280
slash money of mine.
I go buy some medals now.

316
00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,280
Yeah, tell me about that, that
that time of TLA, I mean you,

317
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,240
you can because this was a
vehicle that you were going to

318
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,280
like that would have been
equivalent of what Robex is

319
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:37,680
today.
This is the vehicle you're going

320
00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,320
to grow the company with, with
multi multi mine assets.

321
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,320
Yeah, look, that's that was the
plan.

322
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:48,160
But in the best light plans all
that yeah, it was difficult.

323
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,280
The resource model really didn't
hold up, I guess.

324
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,320
And you know, at the gold price
back then, you know, it was it

325
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,920
was well, it made money, I guess
we never raised capital after

326
00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,400
startup.
We we paid off debt.

327
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,960
Well, you know, and we were sort
of starting to make 10 million

328
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,360
plus free cash a month.
Just when things had turned

329
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,520
around, the Chinese launched
that that offer on us.

330
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:11,200
And it was it came in, I was, I
was in Co Dubois, right about to

331
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,560
leave to, to sight on a on a
Sunday morning.

332
00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,360
And they rang me from Morgan
Stanley and said, yeah, we're

333
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,240
going to launch a bit on you.
And I'm like, well, hang on it.

334
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,680
Why you waited till Sunday?
Like, you know, couldn't you

335
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,240
have done this Friday afternoon?
And they're like, yeah, we kind

336
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,360
of we're going to do that, but
we didn't do it in the end.

337
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,320
And I'm like, right.
So, yeah, rang the board.

338
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:37,280
It was hostile, you know, and it
was like they were almost timing

339
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,720
my movements around West Africa
because when they when they put

340
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,160
the second bit in, I was in the
jungle in Liberia somewhere

341
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,080
looking at one of our other
assets out there.

342
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,200
So it was like really.
And then like just people

343
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,840
calling me the whole way back
and they just didn't believe I

344
00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,560
couldn't get a decent phone
reception.

345
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,720
I'm like, you don't realize
where I am.

346
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,720
Like it's this is Liberia, you
know, like people just think I

347
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,680
was flogging them off.
I'm like for the next day, I'm,

348
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:05,599
I'm completely out of reception.
But it was they, they won it in

349
00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,760
the end.
But, you know, there was it was

350
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,920
kind of bittersweet, you know,
because I think in the end, we

351
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,560
at least we got the the high bid
for it.

352
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,160
But, you know, we got it
together, but and we had

353
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,319
somewhere to go and somewhere to
keep the time busy on the next

354
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:20,359
one.
But it was would have made a lot

355
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,720
more money at this gold price.
You know, it would have been a

356
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:27,319
pretty decent asset, you know,
never say never on selling to

357
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:28,880
the Chinese.
But it wasn't a great first

358
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,360
experience, you know?
What What did you learn about

359
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,840
knowing the ore body before you
and.

360
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,760
I learned a lot about like, you
know, trusting resource

361
00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,480
geologists, I guess, and knowing
who your resource geologists

362
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,800
are, like, and I've got a very,
very trusted guy that goes over

363
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,320
my resource resources now I got,
I don't know, you might know him

364
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,160
from Macquarie days.
Do you know Ted Coopland?

365
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,640
No.
Ted Anyway, he's, he's, yeah,

366
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,880
he's kind of not going to say
he's older, but he's certainly

367
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:03,360
he's a bit older, but he's, he's
one of the best resource

368
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:05,000
geostatisticians I've ever
worked with He.

369
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,560
Used to do.
He used to do all Macquarie's

370
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:08,720
resource review work.
He's.

371
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,160
Not for Tribeca as well.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Tribeca as

372
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,240
well.
And he's he still sort of

373
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,040
consults to them.
I think he's got a Tribeca

374
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,360
e-mail and he's yeah, he works
for himself.

375
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:20,400
I think he founded Cube
Consulting as well originally.

376
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,480
So like it was, oh wow, he's a
real, he's a resource geologist,

377
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,360
resource geologist and he can do
them in, you know, it's not

378
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:30,720
just, you know, straight MIK.
You know, he'll do them in non

379
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,560
linear ways and take the
resource together apart, put it

380
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,040
back together and you know, and
tell you what he thinks it's

381
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,480
going to be like, you know, what
the upside and the downside risk

382
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,760
is.
And he's sort of someone that

383
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,040
will be reviewing the rest of my
resources as long as I'm in.

384
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,640
History So the the five mines up
until Abujar to those Abujar

385
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,480
that plus but they they what
there was like great

386
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:56,880
reconciliation between the
resource and reality.

387
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,320
And then yeah.
And Avatar was the exception.

388
00:18:59,320 --> 00:18:59,960
What like what?
What?

389
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:01,280
What would the actual kind of
like?

390
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,360
Well, I guess you know, it's
those narrow strand, high

391
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:10,640
nuggety sort of finds of, you
know, that depending on how you

392
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,080
know, you drill them up.
And if you know it's ordinary

393
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,400
craving, you're essentially just
drawing, you know, you're

394
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,880
drawing your wire frames, right.
So it's a geologist

395
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,160
interpretation of what he thinks
the ore body will look like.

396
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:23,680
We didn't do enough infield
drilling.

397
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,040
And you know, we certainly
hadn't tested any grade control

398
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,720
patterns.
And what we found is when we we

399
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,240
started putting real grade
control drilling in there, the

400
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:33,560
results just didn't, wasn't
there.

401
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,520
I hadn't been grade capped
anywhere and the high grade

402
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,040
zones just didn't line up.
And, you know, we still ran it

403
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:41,880
really efficiently and we built
it really well.

404
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,800
So, you know, it was going over
nameplate and making decent

405
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,480
money.
But it's, yeah, it certainly

406
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,280
didn't reconcile as planned.
So you live and learn, I guess.

407
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,160
It's certainly one of the things
a lot of people sort of pointed

408
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,240
out the faults with that ore
body from the start.

409
00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,440
You know, I was like, it's all
right, you know, you can get

410
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,520
around anything, but you really
can't.

411
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,680
You know your ore body is your
most.

412
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,880
It's the most important part of,
of starting any resource

413
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,400
project, you know, and it's
making sure that that model is

414
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,080
done correctly and it's, and you
know, then testing that with

415
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,160
closer drilling right down to a
great control pattern tool,

416
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,600
you're absolutely confident that
stacks up.

417
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,960
And we've done that exhaustively
at Robex.

418
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,560
You know, we, we, we drilled in
total, we drilled almost 8

419
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,320
million tonnes of great, like 4
million of that still on a

420
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,120
permit we can't access yet.
But it's, you know, and it all

421
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,000
held pretty much, it reconciled
a little bit over the model in

422
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,800
all cases, which is pretty much
where you want it.

423
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,800
You know, I mean, it's, it's,
it's having those resource

424
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,040
geologists and having the trust
in the resource geologist makes

425
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,160
a big difference.
The other, the other key lesson

426
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,720
that I see from the outside that
you've learnt is the the

427
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,320
register.
So you mentioned that point of

428
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,440
the Chinese got the call and all
of a sudden they go from

429
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,640
whatever percent to nearly half
acceptance and it was a matter

430
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,120
of time before they got over.
Well, it's, it's not even 50,

431
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,000
but by 45 they control voting
and a shareholder.

432
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,080
Yeah, yeah, you're never gonna
get 90% votes.

433
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,240
So it's.
Sure.

434
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,360
But this time around with a, a
fresh vehicle in, in a sense,

435
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:15,600
you've done the capital raise
and everything with, with Robex

436
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,120
coming into this transaction,
you've got the, you know, the,

437
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:20,840
the, the French family that's
there.

438
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,280
The other group where you've
vented in the asset from.

439
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:26,880
You've got Christian.
Yeah, Christian.

440
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,760
A few very a few very supportive
high network guys, I guess, you

441
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,080
know, yeah, especially out of
Sydney, but you know, a Rockstar

442
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,880
register of like of funds out of
the US and, and the UK and.

443
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,520
Finally held.
Europe, so and yeah, it's

444
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,520
sometimes too tightly held.
I guess we don't have the

445
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:45,920
liquidity that a lot of people
ask for.

446
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,400
But I'm like, well, what can I
do if no one's selling shares

447
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,800
like it's, it's just the way it
is, but it's we'll get that

448
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,640
liquidity I think when it comes
around to predictive.

449
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,160
So, you know, it's got enough
trading volumes for the both of

450
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,520
us, I think.
So it'll come on.

451
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,600
But yeah, from, you know, my
major supporters, BlackRock, you

452
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,000
know, everyone that's sort of
buying there from the start

453
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,480
haven't sold a share.
So, and they're all, I think

454
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,680
they'll all be really happy with
our quarter four quarter 1

455
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,560
results as well.
You know, it's been, it's been a

456
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,920
stellar startup, put out a fair
bit of this already, but you

457
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:20,720
know.
Production.

458
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,000
We're over nameplate.
We're at commercial production

459
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,080
already.
We've announced it.

460
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,480
So it's it was still.
A photo of just gold bars in

461
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,960
your hands.
Yeah, there's much bigger ones

462
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,000
than that.
There's a lot more than one

463
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,080
which you normally say.
Did you get tired of that six

464
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,600
times around?
I don't know, the first gold 4

465
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,840
day is always a bit magical, you
know, you know, everyone stops

466
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,880
and it's this one was really
tight to get the first bar out

467
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,520
because I wanted to go home for
Christmas.

468
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,080
You guys are pouring on the 21st
of like December.

469
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,600
I don't care what what comes
out.

470
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,000
And I think we got about a
couple of kilos out of it.

471
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,240
Wasn't it wasn't stellar.
But like, you know, we still by

472
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,840
the end of the year, I think
we'd poured 1000 oz or so.

473
00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,240
And then, yeah, that next shot,
I was like, let's just do that

474
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,560
pour.
And it's been flowing pretty

475
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:03,520
steadily ever since.
Yeah.

476
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,920
So this is, this is a phenomenon
I really want to like tease out.

477
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,320
And because you said first goal
port was 21st of December and

478
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,440
you're already you're already at
or above nameplate and it's like

479
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,560
it's a very small window.
So yeah, you've got this

480
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,600
wonderful term called an, an
oxide holiday, which I want to,

481
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,560
I just want to understand that
term, what it means, what your

482
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,520
observations are.
Well, look, any miner will tell

483
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,160
you this.
I mean, mining sacral light is

484
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:32,120
easy.
You know, it's it's more or less

485
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:33,480
free dig.
We might have to shake the

486
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,960
ground a bit just to add, you
know, get a bit of excavator

487
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,680
efficiency, but it's it's super
low powder factor.

488
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,920
It doesn't wear your machinery.
It doesn't wear your GT, your

489
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,360
bucket teeth, you know, your
loaders.

490
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,400
Everything lasts for a long time
when it goes through you

491
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,000
crushes.
It doesn't wear chutes, doesn't

492
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,520
wear sliders, it doesn't Pierce
belts.

493
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,960
You know, like it.
Everything's easy in satellite,

494
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,360
you know, and it sort of on the
wet end.

495
00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:58,520
It's probably less so because it
doesn't settle as well in your

496
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,240
tailing stand, but it's still
like still makes it really,

497
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,000
really easy to mine and you can
just you've got no power

498
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,880
limitations for your mill
either, so you can just

499
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,400
absolutely smash tons.
So it's.

500
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,840
Recoveries are great as well.
Yeah, it's oxide, right.

501
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,640
So there is no refractory in
oxide.

502
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,520
It's it's, it's all it's all
pretty much recoverable and it's

503
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,960
you know, it's weathered down to
sort of 80 meters makes

504
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,520
everything a lot easy.
Like it's, yeah, it and you

505
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,160
know, especially with the all
body like ours, which is big and

506
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,520
wide and, and open, you know,
like it's everything's

507
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,480
minimalized, you know, I mean
like sort of across the whole

508
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,160
thing.
So there are no zeros in our

509
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,680
drill holes, you know, it's like
there's .8 ones and there's

510
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,880
really low things, but there's
everything's got a little bit of

511
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,240
grade in it, right.
So it's, it makes it really easy

512
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,640
to mine this because if you can
put a whole lot of tons through,

513
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,640
you don't have to be so fussy
about your grade either.

514
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,080
And you can be making a lot of
money.

515
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,720
There's low power restrictions,
low diesel because it's super

516
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,040
low strip.
And you know, and, you know, I

517
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,240
think Regis probably exported it
best, exploited it best, I guess

518
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,520
when they started doing their
mining and they, they did a lot

519
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,000
of low strip oxide and you know,
and I think the Barney's a

520
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,800
similar sort of thing and you
get a lot of it makes a lot

521
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,320
easier when you start putting
fresh in there.

522
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,120
You wear out bucket teeth, the
things where tires burst, you

523
00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:12,600
know, tires get hurt.
Everything in your pit is a

524
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,840
little bit harder.
So it's and everything in your

525
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,680
process plant at least up into
the mill is a bit a bit harder

526
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:18,360
as well.
So I.

527
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,720
Think this is an interesting
example.

528
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,160
I think I heard, I can't
remember where that dukeden was

529
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,200
like 30 odd different pits.
Like, you know, don't think of

530
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,200
dukeden as, you know, like a big
operation.

531
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,360
It was, yeah, like, like exactly
what you're talking about, Yeah.

532
00:25:31,360 --> 00:25:33,960
They're looking for good
saprolite pairs, but it's it's

533
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:40,320
certainly, you know, I think the
best startups of all burning

534
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,760
saprolite It's it's hard to
start up beautifully on Hard

535
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,200
Rock and get, you know, wire
over tonnage straight away.

536
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,480
Like saprolite makes it easy,
you know, and it's all

537
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,240
weathered.
It's already oxidized for you.

538
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,760
You don't have to leach it.
Everything's.

539
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:57,000
Everything's easy.
That easy dynamic probably

540
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,440
underwrites like the when you
think of the deal with with with

541
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,200
predictive.
One of one of the counter

542
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,920
arguments was, well, is there
going to be a funding gap?

543
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,480
Is there going to be some some
unfunded amount to to bring on

544
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,360
bank and that that is not
disclosed.

545
00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:13,520
And to that your argument is,
well, the oxide holiday papers

546
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,440
over all cracks.
There's no there's there's no

547
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,040
funding gap.
I think people relax on any kind

548
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:19,880
of funding cap once we put this
quarterly out.

549
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:25,120
So there's just no way we say
yeah, any kind of really

550
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,120
requirement for extra funding
just for the project itself for

551
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:30,600
banking.
Like we'll, you know, if gold

552
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,560
prices and you know, everyone's
like gold's gone to 4500 and

553
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,320
what are we going to do?
Panic like, but it's it's still

554
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,880
ridiculous margins for us.
You know, it's it's 2500 an

555
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,400
ounce or so.
Like it's it's huge.

556
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,760
So when you when you're at that
kind of margin, you, you know,

557
00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:45,800
print cash pretty quickly, I
guess.

558
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,160
And we're pretty disciplined
about where we spend money and

559
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,360
how we develop.
And yeah, we'll, you know, I

560
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:58,240
think there's been rumours that
the, the predictive CapEx number

561
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,000
wasn't big enough.
But you know, I'm certainly,

562
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,640
we've, I've done that numbers
myself and we've been through it

563
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,840
in detail.
And we're, we're very confident

564
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,440
we can do it out or below that
number.

565
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,720
So it's, and you know, who's got
more experience building a mind

566
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,640
next to it in Guinea lights, not
many others, you know.

567
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,800
So it's we'd literally just
finished it more than 25 KS

568
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,080
away.
All our contractor rates are

569
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,600
current, all our, you know,
transport rates, we we know

570
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:21,880
exactly what everything costs.
So.

571
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,240
How do you think about debt
having debt on the balance

572
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:27,280
sheet?
I mean, you've built so many of

573
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,600
these from that managerial type,
Rob, and now you're, you're

574
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,680
leading the company.
I guess it depends who your

575
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,680
debt's with.
And we've had a very supportive,

576
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,520
this is, I'm not just saying
this, we've had a very

577
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,960
supportive team with Sprott and
I think you'll find the same, he

578
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,120
said from the Emerald guys and
from the WAFF guys as well.

579
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:43,800
They've they've been great
through the process.

580
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,440
They understand it doesn't come
without hiccups, but they've, I

581
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,800
think they've been impressed
with how we've executed so far

582
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,240
and they're they're happy to
stay on and like try and be our

583
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,360
partners going forward.
Not to say they don't take their

584
00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:57,520
pound of flesh.
They do, but it's but it's, you

585
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,200
know.
Project finance in Africa.

586
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,400
It's still, it's still going to
be Yeah, it's yeah, yeah.

587
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,400
But it's, they've been, they've
been pretty good.

588
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:10,160
So it's, I mean, banks, there's
a, there's a conception that

589
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,440
they don't move very fast in
Africa.

590
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,520
And it's kind of true, you know,
just by the time spotted spotted

591
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,040
finished DD before banks even
started looking at it, you know,

592
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,720
I mean, it's, it's kind of very
slow process.

593
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,560
I guess that it's a slow
lumbering base.

594
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,960
But you know, I think, you know,
we've got a, a pretty good debt

595
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,840
lender in Africa.
It's, it's yeah, whether what we

596
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,360
do in terms of getting another
liquidity position or something

597
00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:37,320
like that to, to maybe look for
M&A or something like that or

598
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,080
we'll certainly explore those
potentials.

599
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,560
But yeah, for for the project, I
think we're we're very well

600
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,680
funded so before.
We get to M and AI want to yeah,

601
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,440
dive back in time a bit and and
understand your Nord gold days

602
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,160
in particular, man, because
yeah, I mean like working for

603
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,080
Nord gold Russian Russian minor.
Russian.

604
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,760
It's a private company
essentially.

605
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,880
So it's owned by Alexi Morshoff,
who's, you know, depending on

606
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,040
what time of year it is, he
could be pretty much one of the

607
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,040
richest oligarchs or in the top
ten, you know, so it's he's only

608
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,400
8 years old and May, so he's
still in his mid 50s now.

609
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,040
So you know, he had a billion
dollars at 35.

610
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:24,400
Like it was pretty amazing.
You know, that's, I guess the

611
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,080
difference is all the funding
comes from one, you've got one

612
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:28,920
shareholder to go to one
approval set.

613
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,240
It's very simple, you know, in,
in that respect, whereas, yeah,

614
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,760
dealing with capital markets is
it's got its own little

615
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,360
challenges but and with debt
funders, obviously.

616
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,720
But it's, it was a great time at
Norgold.

617
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,280
I guess it was, it was a whole
bunch of Russians trying to

618
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,400
learn how to be minors and, and
you know, really smart guys, but

619
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,680
not particularly minors and a
bunch of younger guys that got

620
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,720
their shot.
I mean, they made me AGM and the

621
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,160
project director on BISA, I was
34 years old I think, and I got

622
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:05,640
given the dual role and it was,
yeah, really a blur of how we

623
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,560
got through it all.
But Bisa was a fantastic same

624
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,160
thing, Sapolite holiday, you
know, sort of four years of all

625
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,200
sapolite and it was 2 gram a ton
sort of oxide for, you know,

626
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,520
forget how good all bodies used
to be, but you know, you're

627
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,840
making 300,000 oz a year at
about 300 bucks an ounce.

628
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,320
Cash goes at the start.
So it was, it was fantastic.

629
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,160
And then from Visa to spend a
year at Leifer just to straight

630
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,880
operations in GM, you know, they
had the Ebola crisis through

631
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,040
there.
That was just so much fun.

632
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,760
Got back to Burkina just in time
for a popular uprising and a

633
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,000
couple of military coups, you
know, but all this time, we

634
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,240
never really skipped a boat.
We kept making gold.

635
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,600
We kept advancing construction.
Nothing really stopped us.

636
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,240
And and yeah, at the end of mine
where I was looking to leave no

637
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,720
gold and move, and they said,
come, just come help us on this

638
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,280
little Russian project for a
couple weeks turned into two

639
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,760
years.
And it was one of the hardest

640
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,680
things I ever did, certainly
building a mine in southern

641
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:08,240
Siberia, you know, and at the
end of it, I was very glad to

642
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,080
see the back of it.
But apparently it's just making,

643
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,680
it's making a ridiculous amount
of gold now, making a whole lot

644
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,680
of money.
So it's a it's a great project

645
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,520
for them.
It's a heat bleach operation as

646
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,080
well, isn't it?
It's. 12 million tonne printing

647
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,320
heat bleach.
Yeah, it's it's an amazing ore

648
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,640
body.
It's sort of because of like the

649
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,360
the cold and the Thor.
I think it fractures so it puts

650
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:27,840
like micro fractures through the
rocks.

651
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,080
So it's really amenable to heat
bleach to get get really.

652
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,240
And it's just, you know, you
trickle a bit of sauna on top

653
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,320
and you just take the gold out
of the bottom and it's just it's

654
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:40,720
so easy and so big.
And I believe they made 450,000

655
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,920
oz there last year.
So it is amazing.

656
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,520
Sort of not that they really
publish much anymore, but it's

657
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,600
it's amazing or body and they've
it's just made of money every

658
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,280
year since we finished building
it, which is.

659
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,240
So if a tease out like if I just
think from like an operational

660
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,760
and it's like, what do you take
away from from the develop those

661
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,680
like 4 development scenarios?
What are you kind of Yeah, the

662
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,120
the big kind of fundamental
philosophy or lessons that you

663
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,520
have that that you carry through
with you just from a you know,

664
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:09,920
a.
Development perspective,

665
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,000
especially in terms of
developing, I mean, knowing your

666
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,960
scope, knowing your budget,
knowing your project execution

667
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,760
strategy and you know, and then
you know, executing to those

668
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,960
things is, is very important,
you know, and like we've refined

669
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,920
our sort of execution strategy a
lot over the years.

670
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,840
So we know exactly how we're
going to approach them on, but

671
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,800
we also keep an open mind.
Something's a better idea in, in

672
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,320
one scenario or another.
We'll, we'll, we'll flick back

673
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:34,880
to it.
But you know, we, we execute our

674
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,280
own earthworks, you know, so we,
we don't use contractors for

675
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,560
that.
We, we have a very good set of

676
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,040
contractors we work with on
symbols for concrete and

677
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,520
whatnot, and then structural
mechanical piping.

678
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:46,880
We've got about two contractors
we go through in West Africa.

679
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,680
And then we, we generally sell,
perform our own electrical with

680
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,160
mostly Filipino.
So it's, and you know, a couple

681
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,440
of ACG guys are supervisors and
we've been implementing that

682
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,720
strategy pretty much for the
last three jobs and it's been

683
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,600
really, really well done.
We don't really rely heavily on

684
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,880
AP Sims and stuff like that.
We try and we contract that

685
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,280
engineering, but most of the
procurement and construction

686
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:12,760
management we try and do
ourselves.

687
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,560
And it's, you know, getting a
good tailing stand design is

688
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,960
always important too.
And you know, we, we K per UK,

689
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,120
we've, we've worked with really
well those guys, but it's so we,

690
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,400
you know, we've been working on
this for a long time now and we,

691
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,680
I think we're about as good at
it as anybody else, especially

692
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,040
in the West African sphere.
So do.

693
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,760
You get treated differently
wearing a Russian hat versus the

694
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,640
Aussie 1.
In terms of like on site or?

695
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,080
Yeah, just operating in, in, in
West Africa, getting, getting

696
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,360
stuff done, getting stuff
ordered, getting permits, these

697
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:45,240
sorts of things.
Oh.

698
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,040
Look, Russia was the longest
supply chain than I could have

699
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,840
ever imagined going in there.
I was expecting things to be

700
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:51,920
quick and easy.
It was.

701
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,760
It was much harder, like than I
could ever have imagined.

702
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,840
You know, like just getting
things on their railway.

703
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,520
They needed to know every single
component had to be broken down

704
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,280
into its base parts.
And then we're talking if it

705
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,600
screws that big, that would
that's that's how big.

706
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,960
You know, you needed to describe
that screw like the thread count

707
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,800
that that everything about it.
So it was Russia was difficult

708
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,600
in in many ways almost, you
know, it's almost traumatic to

709
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,560
think about it try and block out
a lot of it.

710
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,080
And I'll definitely very
unlikely to be heading back

711
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,520
there anytime soon.
So probably one of the last

712
00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:28,120
Western people to build a mine
in West Africa for AI mean in

713
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,679
Russia for a long time.
So, but yeah, West Africa is it,

714
00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:34,679
it's good.
I mean, you've always got

715
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,560
sovereign risks, I guess, but
you have that anywhere you have

716
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,040
political risks and you have
some instability.

717
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,520
But mostly you've got a lot of
people, a lot of very bright

718
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,040
people, you know, that, that
want jobs, that want to work,

719
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,159
that want to like see
development in their country.

720
00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:51,520
And it's, it's fantastic to
bring that.

721
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,800
You've got a local community you
bring along for the ride with

722
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:55,400
you.
You develop them as you, you

723
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,520
know, and they, you know, you
see, you know, you always, you

724
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,040
become their kind of default
government.

725
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,240
You're quasi like government in
the region and and you always

726
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:07,840
help them build up as well.
I mean, you obviously can't give

727
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,040
everyone in the region jobs is
3040 thousand people, but you

728
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,680
can certainly try and create an
industry and and bring as much

729
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,320
there as you possibly can.
It's whereas Russia is you're in

730
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,040
the middle of a snow field, you
know, 300 kilometers, there's no

731
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,400
one around you.
So it's, it's very, very empty.

732
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,680
Probably, you know, it's sort of
like mining in WA, except with

733
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,160
the desert rather than the snow,
so.

734
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,680
Yeah.
The, the, the kind of like every

735
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,240
BCM sort of, you know, you're
effectively doing a whole bunch

736
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:40,160
of stuff in house that a lot of
miners just just don't do.

737
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:41,880
Yeah.
What do you think is like the

738
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,160
the percentage impact on on up
on development CapEx from that

739
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,480
decision?
Oh, look, it really depends on

740
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,480
the strategy that might that
people employ.

741
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:57,080
I guess you, you probably, I'd
say you're probably saving about

742
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:02,040
20 to 25% on average.
And I guess you being the one

743
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,680
that runs it as well, you're
also a little bit more conscious

744
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,440
of making the best decisions for
you.

745
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,320
I mean, like it or not, people
that you know, make decisions,

746
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,400
they generally make decisions in
their own best interests, right?

747
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,120
So if you are trusting these
decisions to an engineering

748
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,680
house, they're probably going to
make decisions that make it best

749
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,880
for them.
Sometimes that aligns with you,

750
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,040
sometimes it doesn't, right?
But, you know, if the decision

751
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:25,920
is really what you think is
going to be made, you're going

752
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,880
to make the best decisions.
And we've been, yeah, we've just

753
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:31,480
got really good at it over the
years, I guess.

754
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,840
And we all come from an AB SIM
background, I guess.

755
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,040
So, you know, it was with
Lycopodium, then with Mimprock

756
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,240
after that.
So it was, you know, we had that

757
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:42,200
experience anyway.
And we've, I think we're about

758
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,400
as good at it now as as people
can get before they burn out.

759
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,760
You've mentioned people like the
the guys at Emerald and whatnot,

760
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,960
but are there other companies
out there where you think

761
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,240
they've got a wicked playbook?
I've learned from them or just

762
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:55,960
more experienced?
People you're certainly Morgan

763
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,280
and Mick Emerald have been
fantastic.

764
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,560
You know, they've done really
excellent I mean they developed

765
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,640
a mine in the heart of COVID,
you know, in Cambodia of all

766
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,240
places and they did it pretty
much on time on budget with no

767
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,800
groups whatsoever.
So I'm, yeah, big fan of them.

768
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:14,560
G Mining.
There's been a lot of

769
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,840
comparisons about it.
I don't really know the guys,

770
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:18,760
but I've heard they're pretty
good at what they're doing.

771
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:23,600
That sort of, that's a
comparison drawn by investors

772
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,840
that keep asking me about it.
I'm like, I don't really know

773
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,640
that side of the world, but you
know, it's so.

774
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:31,320
G Mining Services was yeah,
what, like their bread and

775
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:32,640
butter was developing mines?
And now yeah.

776
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,160
And now, yeah.
They're playing that.

777
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,240
It's vertically integrated.
It's yeah, it's it's really,

778
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,840
it's cool to watch.
The dream for so many services

779
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,560
companies?
We can just get a mine for

780
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,640
ourselves.
I know is it, I don't know, like

781
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:45,440
it because there's risk
involved, right?

782
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,320
They talk very risky adverse,
right, especially on an APCM

783
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,960
model ABC you you're very much
you're taking on the risk.

784
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,960
Whereas APCM like you know,
they're all it's all care, no

785
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,560
responsibilities sort of things.
So they're you know, and they're

786
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,280
generally charging an hourly
rate.

787
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:04,080
So it's, you know, you've got to
manage them accordingly I guess,

788
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,200
like.
If, if I think of the the, you

789
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,880
know, the growth African gold
miners that have have come

790
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,880
before Robex, I mean, there's
many of them, many of them have

791
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,200
become much bigger miners than
what Robex is today.

792
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,360
But as as at this point in time,
you know, you think of like the

793
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,720
likes of Endeavour or.
Endeavour, yeah.

794
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,200
Yeah, like B2.
Oh, look, and B2 have been

795
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,280
fantastic.
You know, I think Dennis

796
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,960
Stansbury, he's sort of
development team there.

797
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,000
Then like an endeavour.
I think it's Jeremy and and

798
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,680
Peda, I guess those guys working
together building and we sort of

799
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,000
like myself, Jeremy and Peda
like had a little system where

800
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,000
we were like using the same
crews and like making sure

801
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,520
everyone stayed employed between
all our jobs, you know.

802
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,800
So we worked together pretty
well over the years when

803
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,600
Endeavour building mines sort of
that way.

804
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:58,440
They've got a bit fat as late,
like it's certainly some higher

805
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,640
capital intensity builds they're
doing lately.

806
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:05,000
It's not, yeah, I really can't
understand some of their

807
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,840
numbers, like certainly off the
charts, especially compared to

808
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,080
what other people are building
them for.

809
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,960
But they're, yeah, I guess that
just happens as you become a

810
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,000
bigger company.
Well, that's what people say

811
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,200
happens, right.
So that's hopefully it doesn't

812
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,720
happen to us, but.
The company that jumps out to me

813
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:24,280
is First Quantum as well with
how many people would talk about

814
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:26,640
copper and slightly different.
Parts of God, they've been a

815
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,120
mate and they do basically
everything themselves, you know,

816
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,160
except for engineering.
They really take on the whole

817
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,080
lot and that you know, they
don't use contractors.

818
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:34,760
They they self perform
everything.

819
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,240
So it's a Philip wasn't and
projects of like scales.

820
00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:41,040
I can't even imagine, you know,
like first quantum.

821
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,480
Sanshi and Sentinel.
The not the one in.

822
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,360
Panama.
Panama, yeah, it's amazing,

823
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,880
Yeah, it's amazing what they do.
Even Sentinel, for a company

824
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,560
that saw us to take on a project
like that, just nail it and, you

825
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,920
know, did really well.
So there, it's a, it's a pretty

826
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,200
amazing story.
I guess it's very unlucky in

827
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:05,120
Panama, but it's I still think
they've probably got a way to go

828
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,440
yet.
Evaluate the the the landscape

829
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,400
of gold producers in West Africa
now it's a very different period

830
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,160
of time right now to what you
know kind of has been I don't

831
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,080
know just take a snapshot five
years ago like the the larger

832
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,800
companies are are ex growth like
or they're you know, they've

833
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,920
changed they're different.
The Chinese have a completely

834
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,800
different appetite.
The ability for Russian capital

835
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,560
to be as as as as forthcoming is
completely different as well,

836
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,360
like just as a lay of the land
of like the gold producing space

837
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,000
in West Africa.
As a Western producer, how do

838
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,320
you how do you interpret that
state of affairs?

839
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,160
Well, the Chinese have never
been great developers in Africa

840
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:49,320
and they they certainly haven't
done a fantastic development as

841
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,880
of yet.
You know, they've so I'm not

842
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,280
really worried from a
development point of view, but

843
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,560
they do have a an amazing amount
of cash to splash around on

844
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,240
buying developed assets and.
Wonderful at developing the

845
00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:01,440
infrastructure though.
Yeah.

846
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,440
Look, building roads, rails,
ports, bridges, they're they're,

847
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,400
they're second to none I think.
And you know, you've seen that

848
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,440
from the growth of China, what
they've done inside Guinea, you

849
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,960
know, 840 something bridges in
the in the 2 1/2 years previous

850
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,880
to this.
So it's an amazing amount of of

851
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,040
infrastructure, right.
You know, obviously 800

852
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,080
kilometres of rail line and the
Chinas did almost all of that

853
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,560
work.
I'm sure Rio touched any of it.

854
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,360
So I think they just stayed back
as far as they could, to be

855
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,080
honest.
But it was, you know, they've

856
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,240
got an ability to develop
infrastructure, but I guess

857
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:37,360
process plant building is a
little bit more of a niche art

858
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,120
and they haven't really mastered
that yet.

859
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,400
Especially doing it in Africa
where you've got a lot of

860
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,720
things, you got to manage that
supply chain a lot better than

861
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:45,160
what you would do in China,
right?

862
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,480
In China, I imagine anything you
need is maybe 5 days away.

863
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:52,160
In West Africa it's probably
minimum 5 weeks.

864
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,840
So you have to have your things,
everything like lined up, you

865
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,320
know, So it's especially with
the shipping, you know, at the

866
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,320
moment with sewers closed, with
almost closed, like it's

867
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,840
shipping's become a lot more
challenging in Africa.

868
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,200
But got some good partners we
work with there as well on the

869
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,880
logistics front and done so.
So on that point, like

870
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,120
everyone's talking about fuel
right now here, here in

871
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,440
Australia, what what's the
situation like in in West

872
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:18,120
Africa?
Yeah.

873
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,720
Well, we'll honestly, we'll
probably see a price increase

874
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:23,240
this week.
I mean, it's it's inevitable and

875
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,800
it still hasn't.
They're they're kind of the

876
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,640
state buys of the fuel then
controls the price.

877
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,760
So we haven't seen that yet, but
we will see it I guess because

878
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,360
fuel's gone up and they can't
wear that forever.

879
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,600
So it's but they also it's a
statewide, it's a countrywide

880
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,720
price, I guess.
So if you, if they shock the

881
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:44,320
market too much and put it up
too much, you know, like our

882
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:50,120
governments that happen like
it's they, you know, they're,

883
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,920
they're going to shock their
whole economy so that they're

884
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,320
really trying to, I think ease
it's into it.

885
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,520
So, you know, we're going to see
more prices.

886
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,680
We certainly don't have a supply
issue at the moment.

887
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,440
Like, I think it depends on
where the oil you use actually

888
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,520
comes from, because sort of a
lot of the oil is it comes from

889
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,240
sort of West Africa, Nigeria and
stuff like that, then goes up to

890
00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:12,920
Europe for refining and then
comes back down.

891
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,440
So you know, our HFO, which is
what we run our power station on

892
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,520
and our diesel hasn't been
impacted at all.

893
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,360
And we've got 30 plus days on
site both.

894
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:26,080
So we're we're in a position.
But saying that, you know, what

895
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,520
happens if this thing escalates
light never say never in terms

896
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,880
of a fuel shortage.
Like, you know, I don't know how

897
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:36,800
long this goes on for the world
actually does, you know, run out

898
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,080
of fuel some in some places, you
know, like you generally think

899
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,120
the supply and demand elasticity
will come into play and people

900
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,160
will use less fuel because it's
more expensive.

901
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:52,080
And yeah, it's certainly, it's
always 1 battle after another.

902
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:57,200
You know, we get through a
pandemic and then we have a have

903
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,480
a war, but it's we'll get
through it.

904
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,400
The world always adjusts, I
think.

905
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,120
And hopefully this doesn't
escalate any further.

906
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:07,840
Hopefully we don't see any more
countries.

907
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,400
Yemen's just joined obviously.
So hopefully we don't see that

908
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,080
going to other countries in the
region.

909
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,800
We just keep it contained and it
fizzles out.

910
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,720
Someone get Trump gets bored,
hopefully.

911
00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:20,000
So we'll, you know, because a
lot of the world's Petro

912
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,440
chemicals and stuff like that
also come from that region,

913
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,000
right?
So you got to be very careful

914
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,440
there as well.
Fingers crossed.

915
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,200
How has your thinking about
hedging changed over over your

916
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:32,880
career and what's it kind of at
right now?

917
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,640
Well, I think, you know, people
buy gold companies for exposure

918
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,920
to gold volatility, right?
So it's, it's not something I'm

919
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:46,800
really it's you never say never
again.

920
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:51,520
But I'm I'm not really inclined
to to ever take a hedge because

921
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,920
literally people buy us for that
exposure, right?

922
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,000
It's they want a hedge company,
but it's.

923
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,200
You manage your costs to be
reserving to the cycle.

924
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,200
Yeah, you just got to make sure
you're always running lean and

925
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,240
making the most you think.
I mean most I I can't think of

926
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:08,600
an experience in recent memory
where a hedge is actually made a

927
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:10,560
company money rather than lost
at money.

928
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,360
You know, it's can you think of
what are?

929
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,720
You going to take time for gold?
Price yeah, we've got to go back

930
00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:18,560
a long way.
I know I like, yeah, I think

931
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,040
Simon Jackson, who's, you know,
the current chairman of

932
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,400
Predictive and he'll be one of
the directors.

933
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,880
He told me a story that he he
locked in his gold at 340 and he

934
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:28,320
said God will never be this high
again.

935
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,640
And he was right.
Like he would never be this

936
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,080
price again.
He says I was right.

937
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:36,760
It was never that price again.
So, you know, that was that was

938
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:38,920
all back at Sharana days with
read back.

939
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,120
So it's like, you know, yeah.
I mean, you can see some

940
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,240
horrific hedge books come out,
you know, I guess, you know,

941
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:47,880
people that design hedge books
are very good at making money

942
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,120
off them.
You know, I can't think of one

943
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:51,680
that's lost money in recent
years.

944
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:57,600
So it's, I'd be disinclined to,
to hedge, you know, there's

945
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,720
always puts and stuff like that
if you're really worried about

946
00:45:59,720 --> 00:46:02,600
it.
But you know, in my mind, it's

947
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,960
just run efficiently.
Do what you can sell golf or

948
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,160
what you get for it and, and
just continue to try and, you

949
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,880
know, be a good operator out
there in the lowest 10 to 25% of

950
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,320
your cost curve.
And you know, you'll, you'll

951
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,680
always be operating in the when,
when things are terrible

952
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,120
everywhere else, I guess.
What's the what like?

953
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:28,120
What is the current state of of
the Chinese appetite in in West

954
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:29,760
Africa?
Did I see XI Jin the other day?

955
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,080
Biochefen.
I don't know, they, they sort of

956
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,720
XI Jin are in 25% of Xiao XI as
well.

957
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:38,920
So they're all kind of
interrelated as well.

958
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,720
Yeah, it's, it's hard.
You're right.

959
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,240
You know, you've just seen
Allied go, which is, you know,

960
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,680
obviously Mali, you know,
Sabadala there and then that

961
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,920
development app in Ethiopia,
those two small ones, Bonnaco

962
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,800
and Egbao in Cote d'Ivoire.
Like you've seen that go, you

963
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,120
know, and for reasonable amounts
of cash as well.

964
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,000
And then you've seen them, their
value on the Hong Kong stock

965
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,800
exchanges rises.
You know, it, it values the

966
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,440
asset three times what they paid
for it.

967
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,960
So it's all they have to do is
buy assets and they can get 300%

968
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:11,320
return straight away on the
stock market.

969
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,720
So it's, you know, you know, if
that Hong Kong Stock Exchange

970
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,280
continues to like value assets
the way they do, they're going

971
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,320
to have a lot of money to throw
out assets, aren't they?

972
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,960
So it's and you know they're the
biggest bidder especially when

973
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,200
they had that is kind of margins
you that's what you can resist

974
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:30,680
it.
But if there's a sale process

975
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,240
and someone's just selling for
cash at the highest bidder, you

976
00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:34,200
can't compete with that.
Right.

977
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:35,960
Yeah.
Well, I mean, it doesn't always

978
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,080
have to be a process from the
bid either, as I've learned like

979
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,520
it's.
But yeah, I think it's going to

980
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,040
be.
I mean, you saw a CHIM go for a

981
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:48,040
billion dollars, which I thought
was kind of amazing at the time

982
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,920
for the valuation, but maybe
they knew something I didn't

983
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,960
know with the gold price and
it's probably worth that easily

984
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,240
now.
So, but it also like, you know,

985
00:47:56,240 --> 00:47:59,200
they're listing that that IPO
they had on the Hong Kong just

986
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,880
valued them at 10 times cash
flow, which is it's a lot more

987
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:04,840
than any other gold miner in the
world's being valued at.

988
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:09,280
So they're yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

989
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,840
Like what does it, what does it
mean for the incumbents that

990
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,800
that are?
Yeah, I suppose, I suppose maybe

991
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,240
even maybe maybe it depends if
you're X growth versus got

992
00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:20,800
growth ahead of you.
But if you're X growth, it's a

993
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,840
very difficult proposition to
warrant your, you know your.

994
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,760
Well, we haven't seen any of the
tier one like the barracks, the

995
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:32,480
Newmont's, the you know, the
Anglo Edna go Eagles and and all

996
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,480
the big sort of companies
selling out to them yet not not

997
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:40,360
in in meaningful assets anyway.
So I was surprised Lulu didn't

998
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:45,360
go and we'll see what happens
when and Barrick sort of does it

999
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,960
split, I guess see if that ends
up in China's hands or, or where

1000
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:50,640
it goes.
I don't know what their their

1001
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,720
full strategy is with it yet,
but there's a very good

1002
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,160
possibility that that could end
up in China's hands.

1003
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:57,960
I guess that that suite of
assets.

1004
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:03,600
But yeah, I still think
Westerners are better miners

1005
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,040
than than the Chinese,
especially in Africa, maybe not

1006
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,720
inside China, but like, you
know, so we've got that

1007
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:11,000
advantage and we're probably
better developers.

1008
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,720
So that's, you know, also retain
that advantage.

1009
00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:21,280
But yeah, I mean you look at say
Nimdini Cardinal like it's only

1010
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:22,640
you had one full year
production.

1011
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,680
Now I think they bought it what,
7-8 years ago?

1012
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,000
Like it was It was a long time
ago. 2020.

1013
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:32,560
I think 18 like it's before it
was it was closed or 19 maybe

1014
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,200
we'd have.
To check 20, Yeah, I think it

1015
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,200
was 20.
It was before we poured gold.

1016
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,040
It was during the build there.
So yeah, I don't know, maybe.

1017
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:40,600
It took a while to play out with
that many bids.

1018
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,040
Yeah.
But yeah, look, it was, I think

1019
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,680
the Russians were just just
looking for accretion on their

1020
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,800
share value.
After a while that was just

1021
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,840
matching the price.
And I know the guys involved,

1022
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,240
they weren't, they weren't
serious about the asset by that

1023
00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:57,640
price, but it was they did
pretty well to drive up their

1024
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:02,320
own share value.
But yeah, look, I'm surprised

1025
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,120
that China's participated all
the way past the dollar, but it

1026
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,320
was, it was what it was.
And that was only made 200,000

1027
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,160
oz last year.
You know, that was their first

1028
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,160
full year of operation.
It was like, didn't you build?

1029
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,480
And they're like, no, we built
11,000,000 tons per annum.

1030
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,960
Like what's happened to it?
Like where, where the grade go?

1031
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,560
If that's the, the size of it,
you should be making more than

1032
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:27,200
200,000 tons.
But but they did get their asks

1033
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,680
kicked building it, but it was
difficult for them.

1034
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,360
If you've seen that company now
it's got that old Aseno twin

1035
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,480
hills thing and they've they've
been pulled like a podium build

1036
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,240
it for them.
So they've actually said Western

1037
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:39,760
companies can do better than we
can.

1038
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:40,440
So it's.
I didn't.

1039
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,880
Know that I would have thought,
yeah, I did not know that at

1040
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:47,320
all.
Like, from memory, that's a

1041
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:48,960
refract.
Like Cardinals and Denny's

1042
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,360
refractory project, is it not
or?

1043
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,680
Yeah, look, although the
management at the time went to

1044
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:59,800
great lengths to never use the R
word, it's the second R word.

1045
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,280
It was, you know, certainly had
a refractory component to it and

1046
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,080
it needed, it needed a float and
reground.

1047
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:11,960
So it was, it was, yeah.
And yeah, some of their met with

1048
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,760
somewhat dubious.
It was kind of comical at the

1049
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:16,040
time.
You know, they put out some,

1050
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,280
we're going to have this study
out by this date early and then

1051
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,280
a week later they're like, no,
no, it's going to be 3 months

1052
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:22,160
late.
We're going to go back to the

1053
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,240
original dates now.
And they didn't get the metric

1054
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:28,040
results they liked.
So it was, yeah, I don't know

1055
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,560
what's actually it's in.
Once they go into China's hands,

1056
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,480
you've got this sort of
information gap, right?

1057
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:34,120
You never really know what
they've got.

1058
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,280
No jerk, They've got no 43101,
no standardized reporting.

1059
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,120
So we don't really know what
they produce and what they do

1060
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,720
so.
Like when when you when you

1061
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:47,160
evaluate projects, you kind of
just clean cut oxide and like

1062
00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:49,520
are you are?
You oh, look, it doesn't really

1063
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,720
matter what it is.
You just, we just understand.

1064
00:51:51,720 --> 00:51:55,520
And it's something I've been
trying to convince to assign

1065
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,400
almost or very low bomb work
indexes to the oxide because

1066
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,760
oxide bomb work indexes are
always exaggerated in projects

1067
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,320
like, and it's a, it's a
function of how you do your

1068
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,480
physical testing, like how you
recover the core for the test

1069
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,200
first, because oxide core
recoveries are difficult.

1070
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:16,000
Like, you know, you rarely get a
good core recovery from oxide.

1071
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:18,520
And then you need a post that's
big enough to put on a

1072
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,240
compression tester to get that
thing.

1073
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:22,320
Now it needs to be competent
enough.

1074
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,160
You can't put a piece of like of
mud underneath there because

1075
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:26,800
it'll give you a 0 value on the
compression.

1076
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,080
It won't actually register zero
through models so that they find

1077
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,240
the most competent bit and it's
generally dry when they do it.

1078
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,720
So, you know, and oxides
generally competent when it's

1079
00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:38,600
dry, but sometimes melts when
it's wet sort of, you know, so

1080
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,960
they and you, you get a number
that's sort of 8 to 15, I guess

1081
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,840
with oxide, but it's never
really that what I've when you

1082
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,840
actually put it through a meal,
it's always lower on your so you

1083
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,920
know, you can always get more
tons through an oxide circuit

1084
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,200
than what you think you can and
it and it never draws as much

1085
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:56,800
power as you think it's going to
draw.

1086
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,040
So you always have savings
there.

1087
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,760
But like what we're looking for
is just things that make money.

1088
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,040
And you know, it doesn't need to
be, it can be fresh rock from

1089
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:09,920
the start, but it's having that
depth of oxidation really is

1090
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,000
it's very desirable for, you
know, for miners and you know,

1091
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,680
true miners will tell you that
as well.

1092
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:16,560
I mean, there's a lot of mines
that started up without any

1093
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:21,000
oxide and you know, they've done
it well, but it's sometimes

1094
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,240
oxide can be sort of
deleterious, especially in

1095
00:53:23,240 --> 00:53:25,280
Indonesia when it's super wet.
It's hard to get through your

1096
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,840
crushes and stuff.
But you know, you generally

1097
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:31,400
design your circuits to, to
handle oxide and fresh rock and,

1098
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:35,200
and run at a certain set point
on, you know, on the toughest

1099
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:36,520
blend you're actually going to
experience.

1100
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,120
And then everything under that
is, and we've got some very good

1101
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,560
new communition guys, what we
use over and over again.

1102
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,040
They're, I think revisional like
a podium and we've been using

1103
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,800
them for a long time and
they've, they've done, they do

1104
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,200
very good work in sort of
checking mill designs for us and

1105
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:52,640
they're always conservative as
well.

1106
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:54,320
So we always get upside on the
mill.

1107
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:58,000
So that's I, I, you know, I'd
advise anybody designing A

1108
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,080
milling circuit to, you know,
procuring A milling circuit to

1109
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,360
get them checked and make sure
the mill you've got is it's got

1110
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,720
a bit more in it, you know,
because that that little bit

1111
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:10,560
more gets you by when everything
else is, you know, everything

1112
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,480
else falls apart.
You know, the Gray doesn't come

1113
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,200
in if the, you know, being able
to push tons through the mill,

1114
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:18,080
it always helps.
It won't.

1115
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,600
It won't cover up all problems,
but it certainly helps, you

1116
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:22,840
know?
I'm sure you've got bankers

1117
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,240
showing you projects from from
all over.

1118
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,440
Is your jurisdictional appetite
beyond West Africa right now?

1119
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,360
Certainly the whole of Africa
will go to and you know, never

1120
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,560
say never anywhere, you know,
like if the right deposit comes

1121
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,040
up and we think we can execute
it, like, we'll certainly do it

1122
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:41,920
like from a development point of
view, it's where we, we add the

1123
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,880
most value I guess is West
Africa.

1124
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:48,120
But there's certainly, I
wouldn't say no to, to anywhere

1125
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:50,000
in West Africa.
It's all buildable anywhere in

1126
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:50,760
Africa.
Sorry.

1127
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:52,880
It's, it's all, it's all
constructible.

1128
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:54,880
It's just a different challenge
for the guys.

1129
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:56,360
Different set of contractors
different.

1130
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,280
But coming from where we're
doing.

1131
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,520
So you know, you need 3
contractors on your job.

1132
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,200
The rest of them are basically
side contractors, you know, So

1133
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:08,240
it's, you know, we'll go
anywhere if we have to.

1134
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:12,040
But it's our A-team's still
young, but they're getting

1135
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:13,120
older.
There's no doubt.

1136
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:16,120
Like we've got less appetite
for, for super hard

1137
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,200
jurisdictions, I guess,
especially after Russia, we

1138
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:22,720
broke a few of our goals.
It's it wouldn't go back there,

1139
00:55:22,720 --> 00:55:25,720
but anyway.
You're at pains to point out

1140
00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:29,440
that the the bid when you were
at Toiedo was was opportunistic

1141
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,080
and and undervalued the
business.

1142
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,800
So we've gone through a couple
of the points, but what are the

1143
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,560
other things you you just
ingrained in your mind about

1144
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:40,560
making sure no one has the
opportunity to to come in when

1145
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:42,960
when it might be a dip in in
your share price?

1146
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,120
Well, I guess you need to have a
develop, you need to have a

1147
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:47,760
pipeline asset.
You know, if, if you've got

1148
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,160
that, you can show investors
that there's money at the end of

1149
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:54,200
that development as well.
So, you know, we're pretty much

1150
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,200
looking for pipeline assets at
the moment.

1151
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,240
You know, even before this
transaction's completely

1152
00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:00,600
finished, we're we're already
cognizant of the fact that we

1153
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:04,360
need something, you know, it's
it's not even about, you know,

1154
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,040
completely defending yourself.
It's making sure if you do so,

1155
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,320
you get a very fair price for
it, you know, so and you get a

1156
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,680
price that, you know, you you
shareholders are happy with, I

1157
00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:16,600
guess.
And so, yeah, you know, having

1158
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:18,680
that pipeline asset is probably
the number one thing.

1159
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,440
And just making sure you don't
dip, I guess resource model

1160
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,480
reconciliation is something
that's always going to smash the

1161
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,240
share price.
And so poor startups, I guess.

1162
00:56:27,240 --> 00:56:29,360
So into the mill.
So you to make sure that

1163
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:32,480
happens.
I guess Northern Star at the

1164
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,640
moment being punished because of
our crusher in their pit, like,

1165
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,080
but you know, they're, they've
been nothing but fantastic for

1166
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,240
10 years straight or, you know,
more or less that long now then

1167
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,360
yeah, 1 little hiccup, I guess,
and they're getting punished.

1168
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:51,080
So, but yeah, you just got to
make sure you do as everything

1169
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,680
you can to make sure you
maximize production month on

1170
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,240
month, year on year and rest
looks after itself, you know,

1171
00:56:57,240 --> 00:56:58,800
but.
Right now there's a lot of

1172
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:03,680
concentration in Guinea like
you're, you're, you know, key

1173
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:08,000
asset, key development asset,
both, both Guinea.

1174
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,640
And I think we'll look to try
and alleviate some of that

1175
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,320
jurisdiction risk by by having
our next development asset

1176
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:15,720
outside of Guinea.
There's no doubt.

1177
00:57:15,720 --> 00:57:19,920
So it's but for me like you
know, I'd definitely like to see

1178
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,280
like to see a project in Sierra
Leone or Liberia.

1179
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,280
There's some you know, probably
it's a developing regions that

1180
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,720
are right next door and and
certainly they're very they're

1181
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:30,120
very welcoming investment right
now.

1182
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:32,320
There's there's.
Obvious guidelines in Sierra

1183
00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:34,480
Leone.
There's one being developed at

1184
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:35,880
the moment.
Is that a Chinese one?

1185
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:42,840
Or no, it's it's half Nigerian,
half, you know, I think at the

1186
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,320
moment.
So it's the it's called Bauman

1187
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,440
FG Gold.
Yeah, Yeah, I've heard of that.

1188
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:53,480
There's one development one in,
there's one study out Liberia

1189
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,800
called Doobie.
I believe it's pronounced yeah.

1190
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,920
And there's an operating golden
new Liberty and all in private,

1191
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:02,200
so you don't hear much about
them.

1192
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,120
And then you've got.
Yeah.

1193
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:06,920
So look, there's gold there and
it's arcane, so it's not the

1194
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:10,880
same sort of structures, but
it's it's certainly gold there.

1195
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,760
And it's big thick depth of
oxidation as well.

1196
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,000
So a lot of that, Right, you
know, but high rainfall.

1197
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:20,320
So actually tricky, yeah.
Then obviously Cote d'Ivoire is

1198
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:24,920
still an amazing jurisdiction,
you know, despite royalty

1199
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,400
increases or something that,
that potential right now, it's

1200
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,080
still a good jurisdiction, great
infrastructure, amazing

1201
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,440
highways, amazing city, amazing
everything in a power grid is

1202
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,880
second to none, you know, So
Garner's a bit difficult at the

1203
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:39,480
moment.
Obviously Pecan and Mali are,

1204
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,920
are challenging and there's no
doubt.

1205
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:47,680
And then you've got other
jurisdictions down Gabon, you

1206
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:51,360
know, like it's still sort of
technically Western Africa, I

1207
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:53,000
guess.
And then, you know, Namibia

1208
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:57,400
seems to be a very big, you
know, possibility in terms of

1209
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,680
finding more assets now as well.
So, yeah, we're, you know,

1210
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:06,160
pretty flexible on that sort of
Western side of Africa is where

1211
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,280
we like, I mean, obviously
Tanzania is coming back.

1212
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:12,240
You've got, you know, Percy's
developing there after sort of I

1213
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:16,160
think it'd been 20 years since
Zwagi was developed.

1214
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,400
That was the last sort of major
development in West in East

1215
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:21,480
Africa.
So and then you've got

1216
00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,080
jurisdictions like Ethiopia,
like, you know, that are

1217
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,000
starting to become alive.
I believe there's one under

1218
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:29,680
construction there now and and a
second one in the works.

1219
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:33,200
So, you know, you never know
where gold's going to be found.

1220
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:37,200
Like, you've got to, like,
admire the pioneering geologists

1221
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,280
that get out there and, you
know, collect soil samples and

1222
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,120
drill holes in the middle of
nowhere with real no guarantees

1223
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,200
of success.
You know, So it's a tough game.

1224
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:49,480
Can I, can I ask you about some
of the undeveloped projects

1225
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,080
that, that are out in the
landscape right now?

1226
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,560
You don't have to be super
forthcoming if it's compromising

1227
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:57,400
to you, your BD plans.
But I think I think with an ASX

1228
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,840
bias, like how do you, what do
you think of, of, of Toraco?

1229
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:02,880
Oh.
I think it's it's definitely got

1230
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:04,520
a lot of potential.
I mean, I'm waiting for the

1231
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:07,120
study to come out like it's but
yeah, I know Justin.

1232
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:09,960
Well, when it's, you know, it's
a real project.

1233
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,000
It's definitely going to get
built so.

1234
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,280
We are gold.
Look, that's a great project

1235
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:16,320
too.
I think it's got a lot of

1236
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,320
potential.
It's so yeah, they're the two

1237
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,400
probably premier ones, most
advanced feasibility level

1238
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,280
assets at the moment.
So it's yeah, yeah, yeah.

1239
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,200
I've certainly got my eye on
both of them.

1240
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,720
But you know, but valuation
valuations are high, I guess.

1241
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,760
But yeah, so is the gold price.
So yeah, you never know, Like

1242
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,120
these things take time.
Nothing happens overnight, you

1243
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,000
know, you don't know when, you
know, the inflection point might

1244
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:43,200
be and you might get a decent
crack at one of these assets.

1245
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:46,960
You've almost got to be in the
right place for a long enough

1246
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:49,600
time for it to be the right
time, you know, especially for

1247
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,520
these things.
So it's but I think they're

1248
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:56,680
both, they're both good assets,
you know, and they'll definitely

1249
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,000
end up being mines.
So it's a question to win.

1250
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,400
Like Justin just seems to keep
adding half a million ounce

1251
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:04,120
every time he drills a whole.
So I don't know.

1252
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:06,960
But it's I don't know how big
that thing's going to get like

1253
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:10,600
in the end.
So it's yeah, no wonder like you

1254
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,720
know, because apparently study's
coming out mid next quarter.

1255
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,720
So it's, you know, a question of
like how much bigger is it going

1256
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:20,200
to keep getting after the study?
But I think after a while people

1257
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,640
want you to start having
development plans and that's

1258
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:26,480
where Justin will be now.
And I think he's he's always to

1259
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:28,120
develop it right now.
So we'll say that.

1260
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:33,280
So maybe further down the chain
but something like many peaks

1261
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:38,040
and their neighbor there awhile.
Yeah, look, yeah, definitely got

1262
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:39,800
my eye on all those.
Yeah, it's, they're all, they're

1263
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:44,720
all very good projects.
A while he's sort of it it's,

1264
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:48,280
you know, got Newmont and and to
a lesser extent Fortuners

1265
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:51,000
already stamp on it.
I don't think it'll be a Newmont

1266
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,160
mine.
So like Newmont will eventually

1267
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:56,680
surrender those assets, I guess.
And and yeah, you know,

1268
01:01:57,720 --> 01:01:59,400
definitely a good friend of
Chubby's as well.

1269
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,720
And yeah, that's, that's,
they'll be mines eventually.

1270
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,360
And I think many peaks will
almost definitely be a mine.

1271
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:07,520
You know, it's, it's certainly
got the right geology.

1272
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:10,360
It's just the scale of it
that'll that'll matter and how

1273
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:12,480
much they can find to to get
into a study.

1274
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:16,160
But it's not going to be yeah,
you've got to sort of almost

1275
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:19,600
develop things of scale now.
There's not many really 50,000

1276
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:23,240
oz producers out there these
days, single asset at least.

1277
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,480
Anyway.
You've got to, it's got to be,

1278
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:29,360
you know, bigger than that to
find a W African operation.

1279
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,120
We'll see.
But yeah, they're all good

1280
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,000
assets or.
Orem we saw Percy Stakes.

1281
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:39,520
Yeah, yeah, I'll stay in the mum
on that.

1282
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:41,520
I mean you've done anything nice
to say.

1283
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:46,720
It's a similar to all body to
theatre I guess they'll have the

1284
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:50,080
same problem.
So it's sort of chasing

1285
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,120
artisanal miners, you know, like
if you chase that sort of high

1286
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:59,120
quartz veiny like niggity sort
of gold, you know, when you sort

1287
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:01,400
of that's what the artisanals
chase.

1288
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:05,120
And it's why they dig deep and
narrow on those sort of pits and

1289
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:08,920
doesn't turn into like big
mining blocks that you need for

1290
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:15,360
like, you know, open pit mining.
So it seems somewhat, yeah,

1291
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:17,720
fractured, I guess it's all over
the place, so.

1292
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:19,840
But you can make money from it,
as was the case.

1293
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:21,480
With you can definitely make
money from.

1294
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,920
It, but it's a rocky path.
Yeah, I guess it's, you know,

1295
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,760
it's making sure that it's
drilled out and it's, you know,

1296
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,240
it's, it's got that Enfield
drilling to give you some sort

1297
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:31,680
of surety over the asset, I
guess.

1298
01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,760
And then yeah, yeah.
But you never just say never.

1299
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:37,040
I mean, that's obviously Perseus
or something in it.

1300
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:42,960
Like, yeah, it's, it was an
unusual step thought that that'd

1301
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:44,480
be an asset that was super used
to.

1302
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,120
It's certainly not.
It's not a bank and quality

1303
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:53,240
asset, but but yeah, see where
they got, they got relatively

1304
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,520
cheap toes.
So if you look at it purely from

1305
01:03:55,520 --> 01:04:00,120
a resource out space to a value
proposition, it's pretty cheap.

1306
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:05,400
Yeah, on the on the maybe, maybe
different tact a little bit.

1307
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:09,640
But did I see what what became
of Hummingbird?

1308
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:13,440
The guy that's now like running
that is is Sebastian the ex

1309
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,440
Endeavor guy?
Yeah, I've heard that too.

1310
01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,800
Yeah, so, so Sebastian's
involved, aren't there?

1311
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:21,320
Some synergies with that and and
some of the.

1312
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:25,200
Well, Caruso's so there's three
minds in sort of the area and

1313
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:27,480
Caruso is one of them, so that
that's one of their minds.

1314
01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:30,800
It wasn't a, it was a pretty
tough start up for them.

1315
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:33,200
They didn't do anything right.
Like it's, you know, and, and

1316
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:35,440
this is Hummingbird.
Obviously they're all gone now.

1317
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:40,080
They sort of went through about,
you know, 8 project directors

1318
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:43,640
and and five general managers in
the short time that it operated

1319
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:46,600
and then, you know, it sort of I
think at this gold price, it's

1320
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:48,560
settled down.
They're making money it it it's

1321
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:53,080
owned by NASA address.
So he's the Chorus Bank guy,

1322
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:56,200
right?
So Mansa Gold or Mansa Resources

1323
01:04:56,200 --> 01:05:00,520
is his vehicle and they've just
bought out the other 49% of

1324
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:05,200
Passafino or you know, to to buy
that do be absent in Liberia.

1325
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:10,640
Plus they've got that Yennaflula
in Mali, but I'm not really sure

1326
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:12,840
where that's going.
Again, these companies are

1327
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:14,680
private.
They become pretty opaque.

1328
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:17,880
You know, it's, it's hard to see
inside there, you know, and know

1329
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:20,040
what's actually happening.
You know, are they making money?

1330
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:21,240
Are they losing money?
We don't know.

1331
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:24,000
Like it's, there's no like
quarterly account statements

1332
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:27,800
that get put out.
So we're certainly haven't been

1333
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:29,400
in their books.
So we'll see what happens.

1334
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:33,000
But it's but they're, you know
it.

1335
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,520
Yeah, it's right there.
I guess it's 3, it's a, it's a

1336
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:39,560
try mine area, you know, all
within sort of A25K radius.

1337
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:43,120
And Bruce is one of those mines.
It's never going to be a can

1338
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:47,800
euro, let alone a bank hand, but
it's still a nice little deposit

1339
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:50,240
I guess.
And they're about to get

1340
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,120
hopefully access to another
mining permit they they need to

1341
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:57,080
sustain their operations.
There was a huge fuss made last

1342
01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:00,160
year over all the tenements and
just mining in general in in

1343
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,320
Guinea for exploration type
projects.

1344
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:03,800
Predictive were dragged into
this too.

1345
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:05,040
Is is.
That, yeah, they were.

1346
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:09,680
I guess a lot of it comes down
to, you know, maybe not the way

1347
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:12,160
it was executed, but I admire
the spirit in which Guinea

1348
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:16,680
actually did it because a lot of
West Africa's assets are held

1349
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:19,960
are locked up by guys that have
no intention of developing them.

1350
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:23,080
Or they just sit on the permit
and hope someone funds the

1351
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:25,760
development and keep a royalty
or, you know, a free carry

1352
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,560
interest, which is, you know, I
think it's against the spirit of

1353
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,200
what we're trying to do in terms
of you got to find it, you know,

1354
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:35,000
explore it, mine it, develop it,
you know, like, and these guys

1355
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:37,600
have got nowhere.
So I like the fact that Guinea

1356
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:41,560
is actually cleaning up their
cadastry, but saying that it

1357
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:43,920
didn't work very well for
predictive, which is, you know,

1358
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:45,480
obviously I've got an interest
in that too.

1359
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:49,800
So it's, I lost the Argo one,
which you know, hopefully comes

1360
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:53,600
back and and a few of them more
development, you know, sort of

1361
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:56,480
pretty decent tenements around
Guinea.

1362
01:06:56,480 --> 01:07:00,720
But again, maybe, you know, as a
company we probably not looking

1363
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:03,160
to actively develop that much in
Guinea going forward.

1364
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:07,280
You know, we'd like to probably
stay, you know, to diversify

1365
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:08,720
that jurisdiction always
somewhat.

1366
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:15,880
So it's yeah, we'll see.
That's yeah, I think a lot of

1367
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,520
countries could use a clean up
of their cadastry and I don't I

1368
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:20,760
don't fault the Guinean
government for doing it like

1369
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:24,520
they've it is.
It is a bit frustrating there at

1370
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:25,720
the moment.
We've been waiting on mining

1371
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:27,920
purpose for 18 months, you know,
like we're.

1372
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:33,360
But you know, we know what's
eventually going to be issued.

1373
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:35,240
It's just a question of when
they actually issue it.

1374
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:39,040
And it's clearly frustrating,
wait, especially when it's at a

1375
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,760
presidential approval stages,
every other approval process

1376
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:44,200
thing.
And it's just sort of stalled

1377
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:46,120
there as we are with banking in
monsoon now.

1378
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:50,280
So we've got 2 permits there.
But again, we can only do what

1379
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:51,920
we can do.
There's some things outside your

1380
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:53,920
control.
Listen, we've got to try and do

1381
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:55,960
what we can do.
Well, well.

1382
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:03,520
The the period of the gold,
gold, gold bull market where you

1383
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:07,400
see the reaction functions of a
lot of like various African

1384
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:10,840
countries, governments kind of
upping royalties, changing,

1385
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:13,000
changing the tax regimes,
etcetera, etcetera to make it a

1386
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:15,120
bit more, a bit more onus on
these super profit periods for

1387
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:16,680
the for the miners.
Yeah.

1388
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:18,399
Well, it's not unusual.
I mean, the Australian

1389
01:08:18,399 --> 01:08:20,960
government did that with the
resource of profit taxes as

1390
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:23,040
well.
So like when they see your

1391
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:27,040
margin local phenomenon becoming
massive, like it's the digital

1392
01:08:27,319 --> 01:08:29,840
is to take a big a bigger buyer,
the charity, right.

1393
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:34,000
So it's, yeah, it's unfortunate
and you know, hopefully it

1394
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:35,840
doesn't spread or get too out of
control.

1395
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:39,359
But you know, at the moment, I
think with current gold price,

1396
01:08:39,359 --> 01:08:44,479
as long as it's sort of tiered
in a way that, you know, these

1397
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:48,359
things only come in over a
certain gold price, It's see,

1398
01:08:48,359 --> 01:08:50,040
there's another business expense
really.

1399
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:52,560
But it's obviously we don't like
it.

1400
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:55,800
Nobody likes having more of
their gold taken away from,

1401
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:58,720
especially when they're already
contributing so much.

1402
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:03,319
And I think people miss the fact
that probably half the the total

1403
01:09:04,399 --> 01:09:07,279
off it from mine is shared with
the country, you know, or more

1404
01:09:07,279 --> 01:09:11,439
in terms of taxes and revenues.
So we're and, you know, we try

1405
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:14,520
to be good corporate citizens as
much as we can, especially, you

1406
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:17,080
know, engaging our local
community, employing locals, you

1407
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:19,960
know, building, bringing up
local businesses, doing all

1408
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:21,600
these things we can do for the
community.

1409
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:25,319
And but I think that gets lost
and people sort of think we're

1410
01:09:25,319 --> 01:09:28,399
stealing their resources, which
is, you know, I think they get a

1411
01:09:28,399 --> 01:09:30,680
lot bigger share out of than the
Australian government does out

1412
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:31,560
of it.
That's for certain.

1413
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:35,120
Like the very low royalty rates
here and like relatively low

1414
01:09:35,120 --> 01:09:37,680
corporate tax rates and no free
carried interest rates.

1415
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:44,040
If you would, if you if there
was just one one project in, you

1416
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:46,319
know, West Africa or wherever
that you've come across and you

1417
01:09:46,319 --> 01:09:49,520
just think I wish I could have
that mine, you know, like what

1418
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:52,120
is the best the.
It would have been for cola, but

1419
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:54,840
now it's definitely banking.
Yeah, of course, can't be, can't

1420
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:57,120
be your own one.
I think I lost track at the

1421
01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:59,440
start of the story, but in that
WhatsApp group at the start of

1422
01:09:59,440 --> 01:10:02,200
that, you know, the Chinese
thing, it was like after we do

1423
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:05,160
this, we go for banking.
It was always in our, you know,

1424
01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:07,560
in our playbook to, to go after
that.

1425
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:10,080
And you can literally see it
from our minds as well.

1426
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:12,560
So it's like it's very close and
you know.

1427
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:15,320
Cities are real.
Cities are real and you know, it

1428
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:19,120
just it just makes a big hub,
you know, of of gold miners and

1429
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:22,800
you know, I think quality long
life assets and that's that's

1430
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:24,480
what we want, you know, going
forward.

1431
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:30,080
It's one thing to have the whole
thing's all our both our ore

1432
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:33,400
bodies are two to one strip sort
of, you know, in the open pit

1433
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:37,400
and Bankhand have got a, you
know, a relatively 3 1/2 gram

1434
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:40,480
but but huge underground, right.
It's going to be huge dopes and

1435
01:10:40,480 --> 01:10:43,360
it's going to be a big thing.
Whereas and then we've got

1436
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:46,680
potential underneath some of our
pits for for future underground

1437
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:48,000
as well.
So it's you know, things are

1438
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:51,280
going to get bigger and Caniro
and you know, hopefully they'll

1439
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:55,560
sort of come closer to the same
size assets in in what we

1440
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:58,800
developed.
So it's yeah, we were very cash

1441
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:01,600
strapped at the end of last
beginning of last year and like

1442
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:03,480
you know, we really didn't have
much money for drilling and

1443
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:07,240
every drill hole we put in like
into converted to resources or

1444
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:09,320
reserves.
You know what we really like for

1445
01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:11,680
except what we deal with the
cheapest holes, we stayed in

1446
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:15,960
oxide, we know we drilled cheap,
whereas this year we've got you

1447
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,360
know, we've got budget to really
explore.

1448
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:20,280
So it's going to be fantastic,
so.

1449
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:23,040
It's a it's a really interesting
growth vehicle.

1450
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:28,040
You yeah, like if you just, if
you think the best case scenario

1451
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:30,080
10 years from now, what do you
think Robex looks like?

1452
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:32,560
Well, it won't be Robex, it'll
be PDI Gold.

1453
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:36,840
I think assuming this happens,
the name will be PDI Gold.

1454
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:42,240
But look, best case scenario is,
you know, we're in Endeavour

1455
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:43,760
size.
What would Endeavour is today?

1456
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:46,640
You know, like a million plus
Oz, maybe 1 1/2.

1457
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,920
Like, you know, you never really
know what's being found until

1458
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:53,680
it's found, right.
And how quick did predictive

1459
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:55,800
come up?
What predictive was, you know

1460
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:58,400
was nothing when we were
bringing together and now you

1461
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:02,400
know, it's, it's one of the
premium deposits and there'll be

1462
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:04,760
a few more of them out there.
The deposit got better and

1463
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:08,800
better, but the share price is
flat but but the market cap did

1464
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:10,360
grow that was raising money and.
Yeah.

1465
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,200
Look, it's, it's, it's going to
get better now and you know it

1466
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:15,840
doesn't, we're certainly not
looking to dilute anymore and

1467
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:17,400
certainly not going to be
raising money.

1468
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:21,440
And you know, it's the cash
accretion from both those two

1469
01:12:21,440 --> 01:12:23,160
minds operating is going to be
massive.

1470
01:12:23,160 --> 01:12:25,600
So we've got that to look
forward to.

1471
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:28,320
You know, we've got great cash
accretion just during this

1472
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:30,800
period as well.
So adding money.

1473
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:33,640
So it's all the time.
So we, we just can't wait to

1474
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:37,120
yeah, start building it really.
And.

1475
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:40,440
Do you think anything pops out
of the like some of the

1476
01:12:40,440 --> 01:12:41,880
incumbents?
Do you think there are like

1477
01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:44,480
attractive development projects
and someone's looking to get out

1478
01:12:44,480 --> 01:12:46,280
of Africa?
Do you think there's like those

1479
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:48,600
are tangible opportunities for
for Someone Like You already

1480
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:50,520
just think the Chinese can
overpay for that sort of stuff?

1481
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:54,040
You never know, right?
And like sometimes there'll be

1482
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:56,760
geopolitical factors that mean
the Chinese aren't interested

1483
01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:01,360
or, you know, but it's also, I
mean, obviously, you know,

1484
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:05,560
people have made a lot of money
mining X Newmont assets, X

1485
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:08,320
Barrack asset, things like that.
So there's all real potential

1486
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:12,320
there, right?
So it's to my mind, I think we

1487
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:13,920
add the most value as
developers.

1488
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:16,840
But you know, if the right asset
comes along, I think we've got a

1489
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:18,880
really great operations team as
well.

1490
01:13:18,920 --> 01:13:20,360
And we can we can add value
there.

1491
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:26,160
But I guess taking it sort of
junior minor mindset to a senior

1492
01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:28,760
operation and just trying to cut
it down to make it work for you

1493
01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:32,160
is something that can, you know,
add a lot of value as well.

1494
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:36,240
So it's but yeah, never say
never.

1495
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,360
There's some, I mean, obviously
Lulu's fantastic, Picolla's

1496
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:42,960
fantastic still they've still
got great deposits left.

1497
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:44,320
You know, they're long life
mines.

1498
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:47,200
You know, they did some of the
stuff in Burkina's, you know,

1499
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:51,160
Hyundai Kiaka Zambrado is still
fantastic assets, you know,

1500
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:54,400
like, so there's a lot of
orphaned assets out there in

1501
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:57,560
development stage, I guess that
are not orphan, I guess, but

1502
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:03,240
like that might be looking to be
made put up on the sales block

1503
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:06,760
at the time to come.
So whether the Chinese buy all

1504
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:09,360
them, I don't know.
They seem to have unlimited deep

1505
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:11,200
pockets and just massive amounts
of cash.

1506
01:14:11,200 --> 01:14:14,800
So it's very hard to compete.
But saying that, I think

1507
01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:17,520
everyone wants to see their
their project developed well and

1508
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:19,960
run well and, you know, have
some sort of continuity of their

1509
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:22,440
staff.
China's don't seem to have those

1510
01:14:22,440 --> 01:14:24,800
some sort of values ingrained in
them, especially at looking

1511
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:27,480
after the current staff and
making sure things things move

1512
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:30,080
smoothly.
So there's some value there as

1513
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:31,480
well.
So we'll see.

1514
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:35,120
I mean, yeah, you can never
really tell what the China's

1515
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:36,640
going to do.
They might decide they don't

1516
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:39,920
want to mine gold for a while
and go to a different country, I

1517
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:42,400
don't know, or different
jurisdiction all together and

1518
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:44,320
start attacking South American
gold miners.

1519
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:51,120
So, yeah, but I haven't had that
much success yet, have I?

1520
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:53,880
I mean, where have they been
super successful with their

1521
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,040
operations?
That's a different lens.

1522
01:14:56,040 --> 01:15:00,560
You have to, to, to me because
as an operator, like it's an

1523
01:15:00,560 --> 01:15:04,320
interesting view because I see,
I just, I see the gins like like

1524
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:07,600
TSR compare it to any of their
peers and it's just like blows,

1525
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:10,120
blows the equivalent majors out
of the park there.

1526
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:12,200
Yeah.
Just buying operating assets,

1527
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:15,000
it's a different way to I think
the way you you might look at

1528
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:18,080
it, but.
Yeah, I guess so.

1529
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:20,520
I mean that they've been very
fortunate to buy them at the

1530
01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:23,720
right at the bottom of the
growth cycle, I guess.

1531
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:28,320
But I haven't really looked at,
I mean, and can you really trust

1532
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:29,880
all the information they put out
there as well?

1533
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:32,160
Like it's, it's not as
transparent.

1534
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:34,200
They're almost private, you
know, I mean, it's not as

1535
01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:37,240
transparent as the the Western
miners have to be.

1536
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:42,520
But you know, so we'll see.
I'm not not overly concerned

1537
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:44,480
with them at the moment because
I just don't think they can do

1538
01:15:44,480 --> 01:15:46,680
it as well as always scan at the
moment.

1539
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:50,560
But give it 10 years, things
will be very different, I'm

1540
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:54,720
guessing.
So yeah, hopefully I can avoid,

1541
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:57,480
you know, working directly for
the Chinese in my career, but

1542
01:15:58,080 --> 01:15:59,160
you never know.
It's.

1543
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:03,640
Yeah, this has been, this has
been an awesome, super, super

1544
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:06,320
insightful for all of us.
So I appreciate you coming on

1545
01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:08,600
and and sharing the journey and
and the future.

1546
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:10,040
No worries, thanks for having
me.

1547
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:12,200
When the deals done, go take an
oxide holiday for yourself mate.

1548
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:17,320
How?
Good was that mate.

1549
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:20,360
Learned heaps in their massive
thank you to Sandy Ground

1550
01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:23,920
Support Metals Hub, Focus, the
Platform by Market Tech and

1551
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:28,840
Intralinks Hoodoo.
Now remember, I'm an idiot.

1552
01:16:29,120 --> 01:16:31,560
JD is an idiot.
If you thought any of this was

1553
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:34,080
anything other than
entertainment, you're an idiot

1554
01:16:34,440 --> 01:16:35,600
and you need to read out
disclaimer.