Gold Soars & China Corners BHP (Jeff Quartermaine)

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You know, the only way you can
justify some of the prices that

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are being asked at the moment is
either you have a firm belief

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that the gold price is going to
be stronger for longer or that

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there's some very, very material
upside in the mineral resource.

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Jeff Quartermaine, the gold
price has just hit a new all

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time high.
You have just resigned after a

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15 year spell, 12 years at the
helm of of Perseus, a very

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volatile first year when the
company's market kept it down to

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$100 million after the last true
bull market we saw in in the

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commodity.
How are you taking it all on

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board now?
Well, it's a pretty amazing

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time, isn't it?
Really?

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I mean, these prices are a lot
higher than I think any of us

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really expected we'd see.
But yeah, like hay while the sun

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shines, I guess.
From $100 million market cap to

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$7 billion now tremendous value
creation story for for the

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people that have been
shareholders along the way.

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A huge congratulations from from
us on on phenomenal, phenomenal

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innings.
And we're delighted to have you

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join us for our our weekly wrap.
Talking about the big stories of

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the week, we're going to lean
into your expertise, Jeff.

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And you know, gold is gold is
going to be a big part of that.

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And my God, we've had some big,
big gold news amongst the majors

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today.
Well, this week with the, with

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the departures of, of Bristol
and the planned departure of, of

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also Tom Palmer, both Barrack
and Newmont, the like, my God,

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China, we've got to talk about
China, mate.

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We do, we do this news with BHB
and and China is sort of head

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scratching just looking at the
screen shouting wow, like a

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number of times.
It's remarkable stuff.

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Yep.
And the the big news in the the

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market doesn't stop there, does
it?

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No, mate.
Well, our usual sections grad

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control, a bunch of stories and
also also sweet deer sourdeal.

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So Jeff Quartermaine, thank you
for accepting our kind

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invitation.
You didn't need to come join us,

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but you you did and we're
delighted to have you here.

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I think like we're kind of just
really curious to, to, to

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understand, like reflecting on
Perseus, your journey there,

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Like how do you, how do you, how
do you feel about the place,

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although the, the, the, the
place that the Perseus is within

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the gold market right now?
Well, it's, it's an interesting

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question that I mean, we, we've
obviously come a long way over

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the over the years and had an
extraordinary journey in, in

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getting to where we are now.
And the question is, well, where

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do you go to from here?
And you know, I, I firmly have

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the belief that we've created a
platform from which we could

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leverage tremendously and we
could make a take another

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quantum leap.
But it is going to take a good

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deal of effort to do that and
it's going to take a bit of

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time.
And, you know, from my

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perspective, it was a question
of, well, you know, do you stay

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for the next phase of the
journey or do past the next Gen.

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And I think, you know, it's
really important to get a new

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set of eyes on things and to
bring a new level of energy and

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commitment and the like.
And that's basically what we've

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done.
But I got it's been a good

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journey along the way and we've
really enjoyed every moment of

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it.
Yeah, you, you had previously

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worked in Australia as well as
Papua New Guinea and and

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Philippines.
So you wanted something a bit

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easier and you and you went out
to West Africa around 2010 to

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take on the the CFO role in what
was a, a boom time in the

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market.
So you had three years as CFO.

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I'd love just to hear the the
parallels between that era and

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where we are today.
Yeah, it is very similar in, in

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many respects.
I mean, I, you know, it's quite

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an interesting situation.
I came over to join Perseus on

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the basis said look, come over
and raise some money and we'll

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build this project and get taken
over and you know, the rest is

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history sort of thing.
And it, and it didn't turn out

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at all like that.
But what, what did happen was,

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as you you said earlier, there
was a significant correction in

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the market around 2:13, 2/14
sort of thing.

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And you know, that's there,
there are real parallels with

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where we are today.
I mean, you know, some of the

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prices that are being paid for
stocks at the moment seem to me

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to be pretty inflated.
And you know, perhaps there'll

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be a bit of bias regret when the
dust settles on that particular,

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you know, scenario.
And that's exactly what happened

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to us at Perseus.
We, you know, at one point, I

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think in 2010, if I remember
correctly, we went into the ASX

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100.
I think we had a market cap of

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1.6 billion and we hadn't even
turned to sort of dirt at that

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particular point in time.
And it seemed, wow, this is

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pretty, pretty up there.
Well, you know, the guys that

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bought those shares, a few of
them certainly suffered buyer's

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remorse and then spent the next
four or five years reminding me

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about that every time they had
an opportunity.

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That that the the common thread
with with the, you know, Percy's

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value creation story was
acquiring undeveloped projects

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for pretty minimal kind of
upfront cost in your tenure and

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then executing delivering them,
you know, plus on carefree rate

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of bringing them into into
production.

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You can't buy things cheap
anymore.

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How did you contend with just
the valuation landscape, you

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know, in the last last year of
your your tenure?

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Though it's, it is, it is very
difficult.

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I mean, you know, the only way
you can justify some of the

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prices that are being asked at
the moment is either you have a,

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a firm belief that the gold
price is going to be stronger

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for longer or that there's some
very, very material upside in

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the mineral resource.
And you know, some of those

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things could be true.
I mean certainly I think we

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bought O Corp a couple of years
ago and got the Nian Saga

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project.
And I think you know that in, in

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retrospect, that will be seen as
a as a fantastic acquisition

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because not only have we, you
know, put it into development

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now and have a very good chance
of benefiting from elevated gold

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prices, but I think our
exploration team has done a

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first class job as well in terms
of perhaps, you know,

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delineating resources that
weren't previously recognized.

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So on that particular one, I
think we we look like we we're a

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good chance of winning both
ways.

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And and how do you think about
the, the sort of trend to cut

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your minds at, at a higher sort
of gold price assumption and all

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these sorts of things and expand
production lower margin banking

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off the the high gold price, I
mean as a trend we see all

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across the industry.
How do you sort of?

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Yeah, that's a really, that's a
really interesting one and it's

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one that we've wrestled with as
well.

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You know, there is a case to be
made around production and

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consistency of production.
So in our case we were thinking,

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you know, the the Mayo sand
project that we bought was due

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to come on stream around now,
but for one reason or another we

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weren't able to do that.
So looking at, well, how do you

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fill the gap till Neon Saga
comes on and there is a

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temptation to elevate your cut
off, grow your the drop your cut

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off grade and elevate your gold
price and and reduce the margin

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at the same time.
Now you know, it provided you

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put some hedging of one sort
into another to to guarantee

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your margin.
That's not a bad strategy, but

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you know, would you want to rely
on it forever?

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I would not necessarily think
so, because I think this is

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exactly what went wrong in the
last cycle where people did

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precisely this and got caught
when the gold price turned.

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So the problem is, is that when
you do that, you know, for

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instance, if you're going to do
another cutback or something

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like that, it's significant
capital investment and time.

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If you get through that period
of time before the market

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collapses, then you'll be hero.
But if the market turns while

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you're halfway through, then
look out.

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So it is a matter of phone
judgement and it's one that I

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think is exercising the mind of
a lot of a lot of executives in

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in the business.
We, we were chatting before we

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started recording and it's kind
of implicit in what you've just

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said right now.
The, the relationship that you

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as a management team have with
the investors in your business

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is, is paramount.
And it's also ever changing.

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You know, in the, in the good
times, they're pushing you to do

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more, do deals, expand
production, these things.

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And then maybe they're on your
back for those decisions in the

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downtime.
So how do you balance that

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dynamic with your internal
management team just within

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yourself in in maintaining your
your sort of resilience and and

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sticking true to the outlooks
that you have about the

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industry?
Yeah, it's, it's a really

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important point.
I mean, you have to know what

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you're about, you know, and
understand what your core values

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are, what's important and and
not not be persuaded by the by

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the cheer squad, as it were,
because you know what you're

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going to hear and you know, you
form a judgement and you'll be

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judged by it.
You know, The thing is that

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history Mace may look at look at
my tenure and people may say,

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God, he missed some
opportunities he should have

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bought.
Well, you know, blah, blah,

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blah.
But on the other hand, it may be

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different.
Nobody knows today, right?

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So, but you do definitely have
to balance those things up.

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And one of the things is that,
you know, we as a company, the

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Perseus take took very seriously
the mission to generate benefits

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for all of our stakeholders in
fair and equal proportions.

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And being in Africa, that's not
just narrative, that's real.

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You really we do have to look
after our hosts.

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Now The thing is this that you
know, if you go chasing capital

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gain for your shareholders at
the expense of cash and

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everything else, then you're
going to be hard pressed to

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deliver those benefits to the
other stakeholders.

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So making sure you've got
everything, you know, a

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reasonable proportion and you
know, it's an important thing.

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And then once again, that comes
down to judgement and it's the

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decision of the, you know, the
management and board as to as to

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where you fall.
I've got, I've got the privilege

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of speaking with a lot of
different yeah, like like

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executives on management teams
of, of various mining companies.

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And I've got 2 observations
about you, Jeff, which kind of

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like front of mind ways in which
you're, you're different from

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the crowd. 11 is you truly think
like long term, you don't get

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caught up in the, the, the
trends of the day.

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You have a, a reluctance to,
yeah, to, to lift gold price

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assumptions or a reluctance to,
to, I mean, I mean, you've

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always been kind of pro hedging
in some capacity, even in, in

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the good times.
You've got the thoughtfulness

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about protecting the downside as
opposed to getting kind of, you

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know, swept up in the consensus
norms of the time.

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And the other one is you've got
an appetite to talk about the

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hardships, the tough, tough
times, but you know your

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professional, personal or
whatever at at a company, I

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think that builds trust.
How do you think about those

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those two differentiators and do
you see the same?

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Well, yeah, I've been, you know,
I'm interested in in generating

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returns for shareholders and,
and, and the other stakeholders

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say that drives that, that
bottom, you know, that's the

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bottom line of the thing.
But I think the other thing, you

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know, that you just touched on
there is important too.

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It, it never ceases to amaze me
how some folk will turn up when

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times are good, but when they're
bad, they'll go missing in

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action.
And, you know, what does that

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say to a shareholder?
And I, I think one of the things

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that I can say is that, you
know, during that period of

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213-1415, you know, I never
checked facing the music as it

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were.
And we weren't, we did have a

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few challenging period years
through that period.

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But I think when you do that,
people do tend to, I guess, you

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know, listen to what you're
saying and, and, and, and maybe

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come to understand the strategy
a little bit more, more more

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clearly.
You described that, that period

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and you, you comment on it there
like a couple years or 3-4

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years, but during it must feel
like a, a lifetime when you're,

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when you're living through that.
And when you described it to us

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earlier, it was, you know, going
to the Denver Gold Forum or

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00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,160
wherever you might have been
and, and you just come at the

223
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back end of a washing machine.
How was it living through those?

224
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:40,560
Call it 2013 to to 2017 times
where people or maybe 2016 ish

225
00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:43,360
where where people just weren't
that interested in in goldies.

226
00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:45,360
Yeah.
No, it was tough, but it also

227
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,920
gave us an opportunity to think
about things as well.

228
00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,400
And yeah, one of the things that
I did come up or decide very

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00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,760
early on in the piece and that
was being a a single mine,

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00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,920
single country exposure was a
really dangerous way to live

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00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,720
your life because you didn't
need to have a whole lot go

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00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,080
wrong to take you out backwards.
And that was where our strategy

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00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,840
of becoming a multi minded multi
jurisdictional operator came

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00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,640
from.
And so we we were pretty hard at

235
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,080
trying to find other operations
opportunities, etcetera,

236
00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,240
etcetera.
And I mean, we took over a Mara

237
00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,200
Mining, which was a British
company that had the Yuri

238
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,800
project.
And, and I can tell you had some

239
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,520
monumental discussions with the,
you know, the senior leaders of

240
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,240
that company about do we develop
singing first or yayori?

241
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:31,680
And they definitely wanted
Yayori.

242
00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:35,240
And I definitely wanted singing
on the basis that, you know, we

243
00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,240
knew nothing about operating in
Cote d'Ivoire.

244
00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,520
And I didn't want to have a very
big bet, our first bet.

245
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,560
I wanted to put a modest sum of
money such a different way,

246
00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:45,600
completely pear shaped.
It wouldn't kill the company,

247
00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,000
but it would give us the
experience to operate at a new

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00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,040
jurisdiction and the confidence
to then be able to make a

249
00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,960
significant investment in the
next project.

250
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:55,760
And that's exactly how it worked
out.

251
00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,040
And in fact, you know, we
weren't, you know, as a singer

252
00:12:58,040 --> 00:12:59,400
turned out to be a great
investment.

253
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,960
And in fact, the cash flow from
there paid the development EARA.

254
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:04,520
So the rest is, they say, is
history.

255
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,240
You've got a real philosophy to
to building companies and I love

256
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,560
and I think sort of through the
time we've done this podcast

257
00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:13,640
revenue, I've learned a lot of
these philosophies, say of a

258
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,880
Jake Klein, a Bill Beeman.
They've they've all got a bit of

259
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,600
a checklist in in how gold miner
should be run.

260
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,160
And and you've clearly got your
rules around sort of risk around

261
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,880
hedging that we touched on.
I'd love just to, to fill that

262
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,680
out a bit more.
What what are the kind of other

263
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:30,800
staples that you think in, in
running a mining business or

264
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,400
developing A mining business
that are that kind of must haves

265
00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:37,920
when it's, you know, comes to
assets, jurisdictions, risk

266
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:39,480
approach and these sorts of
things M&A?

267
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,920
Yeah.
Oh, look, I mean, I think The

268
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,960
thing is that the working in the
African continent, I mean it is

269
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,560
a volatile.
So you know there's a political

270
00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:49,480
cycle etcetera, etcetera that
does change.

271
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,920
But one of the core values or
beliefs that we have had and

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00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,640
have lived by very strongly.
Yes, we do.

273
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,240
We say we're going to do if we
can't do it, we don't say we can

274
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,080
do it.
But once we commit to it and we

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00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,400
will move heaven and earth to
deliver on that outcome.

276
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,840
And I think that goes down to,
you know, drives right through

277
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,200
the business.
And I mean, some people would

278
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,720
criticize my management style
and saying, oh, you know, you're

279
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,600
a micromanager and all this sort
of thing, that it's not a case

280
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,400
of micromanagement.
It's about knowing what the

281
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,760
heck's going on and then being
able to work with your guys who

282
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,800
know even more to, to steer it
in the right direction.

283
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:26,120
And that's, that's what we've
done.

284
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,320
We've got the little things
right along the way.

285
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,240
And just reflecting on all this,
I think in, you know, it's quite

286
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,000
interesting because, you know,
you can make the big hits and

287
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,560
hope for the home run or you can
hit a lot of, you know, one base

288
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,640
kind of things.
And it's quite remarkable that

289
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,280
some of the smallest things that
you can do can generate the

290
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,000
biggest benefits.
And well, I'll give you an

291
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,560
example.
I mean, somewhere along the way

292
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,600
there.
But when we first started

293
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,440
etiquette, for instance, we had
this belief that, you know, you

294
00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,320
needed to have a general manager
who had experience working in

295
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,760
Ghana, an expatriate.
And we did do that for a number

296
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,720
of times.
And then an opportunity came up

297
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,760
for us to appoint a Ghanaian
chap as the general manager.

298
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,360
And, and I did that.
And I can tell you there was a

299
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,480
lot of people who were saying,
geez, you know, Are you sure

300
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,640
about this?
But what it did do was it sent a

301
00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:23,520
very clear message to the entire
team that we trusted these guys.

302
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,520
You know, we, we had faith in
their ability to lead the

303
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,680
business and they took that on
the, the management team took

304
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,080
that on and have developed in
spades.

305
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,720
And you know, the, the, the
operating costs, the all insight

306
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,320
costs at Eddie can last year was
about the same as it was back in

307
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,360
2012.
That was said in the gold price

308
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:47,280
and and it had become in my
mind, one of the better, you

309
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,800
know, gold mines in the world.
And that came off the back of

310
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,720
putting trust and faith in, in
our local management team to,

311
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,240
you know, to align their values
with the values of the company

312
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,240
and to and to deliver.
That's what's happened.

313
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,960
That's a, that's a really,
really interesting thing to

314
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,400
reflect on the when, when, when
you a lot, a lot of our, a lot

315
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,200
of our like listeners audience,
they, they're, they're buying

316
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,800
gold stocks.
They, they, they might buy gold

317
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,200
stocks for like the short term
or they might buy them and, and,

318
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,120
and sort of think, Oh no, this
is a great long term kind of

319
00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,240
thing.
How do you, how does, how does

320
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,280
someone kind of evaluate the
crop of management?

321
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,320
How do you, how do you, how do
you come to, to grasps with?

322
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,120
Yeah, the, the management team
of the stock that you're

323
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,040
investing in is a good capital
allocator.

324
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:32,880
Yeah, that's a good question,
isn't it?

325
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,760
I mean, there's a lot of
interesting folk out there, I

326
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,320
have to say.
And, and there's a lot of people

327
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,240
who are good at good at, you
know, talking the talk as

328
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,840
opposed to walking it.
I don't know, it's a short

329
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,760
answer.
I mean, look, The thing is that,

330
00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,080
you know, from an investor's
perspective, their game is to

331
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,760
buy, buy low and sell high.
And I respect that.

332
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,760
And, you know, you try to try to
work with that, but at the same

333
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,160
time, I mean, taking, you know,
super risks that might blow the

334
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:00,880
business up isn't too smart
either.

335
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:02,840
Just quietly.
I'd love to.

336
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:08,920
I'd love to talk a bit about
yeah, Perseus, the environment

337
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:14,880
of, of African gold producers
and, and, and how you, how you

338
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,200
evaluate everything now that
you're on the outsider.

339
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,280
I understand you still got a
consulting job for Perseus.

340
00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,920
But, but, but last time we
spoke, we, we, we did talk a

341
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,440
fair bit about, about the fact
that, you know, Perseus has its

342
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,440
stake in, in predictive, which
subsequently another stake came

343
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,800
along to Mundane and Zejin.
And, and I've got no doubt in

344
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,080
the time that's followed that
there's, there's certainly an

345
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,800
appetite for, for montage to be
this, this new kind of emerging

346
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,240
African gold producer, which is
backed by, by both by Fijian

347
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,720
and, and the London's.
And at one point, Percy's had

348
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,640
shares in montage, which sold at
a much lower share price than

349
00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,920
today.
You've got, you've got all of

350
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,360
those dynamics happening at the
same time.

351
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:05,360
You've kind of got some African
gold producers being in a rush

352
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:08,440
to get out of Africa or
diversify out of Africa.

353
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,760
Like maybe more on the South
African side of things with

354
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,200
likes of Pan African and Harmony
doing everything they can to put

355
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,760
their money into Australia.
Where do you, where do you see

356
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,760
like how do you just evaluate
the the landscape of incumbents

357
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,360
and incoming gold producers?
Yeah.

358
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:26,040
Look, I don't think about them
too much to be perfectly frank.

359
00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,200
But what I would say is this is
that, you know the African

360
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,320
continent is a very dynamic
place and it is changing very

361
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,000
rapidly.
And I think if you don't

362
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,840
recognize that and alter your
business model to suit, then you

363
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,040
will come and come unstuck.
So what I'm saying is that what

364
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,800
was acceptable practice say
maybe 1520 years ago probably

365
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,240
isn't going to cut it today
where there's a growing youthful

366
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,320
population that need to be
employed and fed and all the

367
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:53,680
rest of it.
And you've got governments

368
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,440
looking for revenue, etcetera,
etcetera.

369
00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:00,200
So working with the governments
to be able to ensure that they

370
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,520
get the benefits that they want
and you get what you want.

371
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,200
At the same time, that is a
serious challenge and and it

372
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:10,400
varies from place to place.
Now, you know, people wanting to

373
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,640
get off the continent.
Well, I mean, I can understand

374
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,360
why some people would be be
saying that, but you know, I've,

375
00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:20,040
from our experience, at least I
don't think, you know, I'm, I'm

376
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,000
really quite the 11 take away
from this experience has been

377
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,760
that I'm mystified at, at this
African discount that applies.

378
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,640
And I, I think it's, it's the
height of, well, perhaps lazy

379
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,680
thinking or ignorance.
I'm not sure.

380
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,280
The fact that people think that
because they saw a headline on

381
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,040
CNN about somewhere that it
applies everywhere.

382
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,280
I mean, it absolutely doesn't.
And I mean, our operations are

383
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,760
testament to that.
You can operate very well on the

384
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:51,440
African continent and you could
also perform very poorly, just

385
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,520
as you can in Australia or South
America or or Asia.

386
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,440
It's really up to you as to how
you go about it.

387
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,640
And I mean, you know, we've had
a had a pretty reasonable run

388
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,600
and not everything runs
according to plan, that's for

389
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,080
sure.
You know, the script changes

390
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,120
from time to time and I think
it's how you react to those

391
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:11,960
changes that is super important.
But no, it's been a been an

392
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,160
interesting journey and I think
it's a great place to invest.

393
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,280
Far be it from leaving, I'd be
looking for further exposure if

394
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:21,160
I was staying in the role and.
Can the likes of a of a of a

395
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,080
Perseus or other other western
miners compete on a cost of

396
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,760
capital basis with to make the
acquisitions that are that are

397
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,920
necessary to have no sustained
production?

398
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,120
Like, I mean, that's that's the
topic of the day is that, you

399
00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:37,160
know, with, you know, being in
direct competition with a lot of

400
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,280
Chinese companies whose cost of
capital is very different to

401
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,400
what what we're dealing with.
And of course, you know, there's

402
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,480
been some fairly large prices
paid in the past.

403
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,080
And I guess you guys would have
noticed talking about the big

404
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,480
events of the week, the, the
listing of Xishin in, in Hong

405
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,520
Kong, that's going to have a, a
real impact on, on things going

406
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,720
forward, I expect.
I, it's, it's quite a funny

407
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,200
thing talking to a few of the
other companies.

408
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,400
Everyone seems to think that
they're going to, you know, sell

409
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,880
out to XI Jin.
Well, I don't think XI Jin's

410
00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,440
that silly.
They'll be quite selective in

411
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,040
how they actually apply their
capital.

412
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,800
If you you sort of mentioned the
the script or thrown out the

413
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,160
script before.
If you look back through the

414
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,120
last 10 years at the the deals
that might have been or the

415
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:23,880
potential deals or the potential
paths you could have taken.

416
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:28,440
Are there any not not so much
regrets, but are there any, you

417
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,520
know, big kind of stories there
to to be told in in other

418
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,440
directions the Percy story might
have gone?

419
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:39,600
Oh, well, I mean, not, not so
much from from deals that we

420
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,320
missed out on, on getting.
There were a few things where we

421
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,520
we were were pursuing and we
weren't successful, but we were

422
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,760
quite comfortable with coming
second in the sense that we

423
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,880
didn't overpay.
But I guess you know, in, in the

424
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,760
context of of that decision
listing, they did come and have

425
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,120
a look at us back in 2014.
Fifteen.

426
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:01,800
And had they bought into 1415,
they would have paid a

427
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:05,120
significantly lower sum of money
than might be required if they

428
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,280
wanted to come knocking today.
Not that they are, of course,

429
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,120
but no, you know, they maybe
that was a missed opportunity

430
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:10,960
for them.
I don't know.

431
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,680
Do you do you think that Percy's
outlook today is 1?

432
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:22,520
Where they they are, the company
either grows or or you know,

433
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,600
that's that's to grow up like
they have to buy something or be

434
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:26,920
be bought themselves.
I don't, I don't think so.

435
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,760
Look, the, the strategy going
forward is going to be evolve

436
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,040
over the you know, I know the
team's going to kind of be

437
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,680
having a strategic planning
session later this year to

438
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,040
assess, you know, are we on the
right track or do we need to

439
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,680
adjust to and, and Craig, the
new CEO will, will lead the way

440
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:43,200
on that.
I'm sure he's got his own views

441
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,280
as to what is, you know, is
going to create success and all

442
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,320
the rest of it.
But no, look, I think you know,

443
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,680
we've, we've, we've got a path.
We don't have to do anything

444
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,120
immediately.
We put out a a forecast the

445
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:59,040
other day which showed our five
year production profile.

446
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,960
And the thing that got missed by
the market, I think when we put

447
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,440
that out is that that five year
profile was based on job

448
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,640
compliant, proven probable
reserves, not resources, you

449
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,080
know, not that category that a
lot of people use imagined

450
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,360
resource or whatever this was on
hardcore reserves and and that's

451
00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:18,760
for the next 5 years.
So it means that there is a bit

452
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,720
of time there to make the right
calls as to what the next steps

453
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,440
would be.
And whether it's a case of

454
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,720
incremental add-ons through M&A
or whether it's add-ons through

455
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,920
through organic growth
exploration success or whether

456
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,000
it's some sort of
transformational deal to

457
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,280
quadruple the size of the
business.

458
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,640
I mean all of those things are
on the table and it's a question

459
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,720
of, you know, the judgement of
the of the management team and

460
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,040
and the board coming forward.
What about yourself, Jeff?

461
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,440
Yeah, I think you called
yourself the Accidental Miner a

462
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,080
little while ago, but you card
quite a career starting as an

463
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,560
engineer.
What's what's in store?

464
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,000
Well, I'm not too sure to be
honest.

465
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,440
I'm going to have a little bit
of a break and try and get a bit

466
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,400
of health health back to to me.
But in fact I actually cleaned

467
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,600
my bike yesterday.
I'm heading in the right

468
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,840
direction, getting out out on
the road on the weekend, I

469
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,120
think.
Advice from JD.

470
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,640
Yeah, I know.
Look, I mean, I've, I've still

471
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,520
got plenty of gas in the tank
and I'd like to stay involved in

472
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:16,760
the business in one way or
another.

473
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,040
And I'm sure there'll be, you
know, opportunities to do that

474
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:25,880
and I'm looking forward to.
It I yeah, we're, we're where we

475
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,360
wish you the best of luck with
whatever your new endeavours

476
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:30,240
are.
I'm sure you'll be successful in

477
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,120
it.
And while we've got you, we've

478
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:39,640
got to ask you about Barrick and
Newmont, the 22 gold majors who

479
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,840
have also had leadership changes
announced in the in the last

480
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,720
week.
Bristow's was, was sort of

481
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,120
flagged as potentially coming in
the future, like in, in a few

482
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:50,560
years time.
And then suddenly Jonathan

483
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:55,400
Thurston has has, yeah, brought
that to a fruition much earlier

484
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,160
and he's kind of departed
effective immediately.

485
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,560
And then, and then you've got
Tom Palmer from Newmont on the

486
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,320
exact same day announced
departure by the end of the

487
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,040
year.
Can it jump straight into

488
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,120
conspiracy corner?
Was it a coincidence?

489
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,280
Yeah, I don't know about that.
Actually, I did.

490
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,920
I did get a few calls and emails
that night about, you know,

491
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,480
people speculating what it's all
about.

492
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:18,880
Maybe it's a good time to sell
shares.

493
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,360
I don't know.
But I look, I mean, there's all

494
00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:24,960
sorts of theories around and and
I've got absolutely no idea what

495
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,040
the facts are.
But you could well imagine that,

496
00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:33,200
you know, looking at that North
American market that, you know,

497
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,520
they may feel it's time to
produce a mega, mega North

498
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,640
American exposure and, and maybe
cast off the other assets and

499
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,440
maybe they'll end up with sushi
and there's sort of conspiracy

500
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,880
theory.
I don't know.

501
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,960
But you know, like, look, who
knows?

502
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,800
Who knows what they're thinking?
I mean, you know, from the

503
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,480
outside it it makes for for
good, Yeah, good material to

504
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,120
have a yarn about, but who
knows.

505
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,840
Bristow was, yeah, the the kind
of mining leader who who, who

506
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,880
carved out his reputation from
developing in in Africa.

507
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,200
Part of the the, the, the
reported rationale for his

508
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,400
departure is, is the, the, the
mishandling as it's been

509
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,640
reported of, of the situation in
in Mali.

510
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,240
Do you have any views on this?
Yeah, I don't, I don't think

511
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,920
that's, if that's what's being
reported, then that's not

512
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,240
accurate reporting.
I mean, look, I've got nothing

513
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,320
but admiration for Mark.
In fact, as far as I'm

514
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,120
concerned, he was inspirational
to me in terms of, you know, how

515
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:34,720
to actually go about doing
business.

516
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,640
So you won't get a bad word out
of me about Mark.

517
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,200
But no, look, I think the, the
situation in in Mali, there's a

518
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,440
little bit more to the story
than perhaps is being considered

519
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,480
in the market or, you know, in
the media.

520
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,920
And, you know, I think for, for,
you know, for market was a bit

521
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,320
personal, you know, around,
around how some of those things

522
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,400
came about.
And, you know, with the, with

523
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,680
the benefit of hindsight, he
might say maybe we should have

524
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,240
done things slightly
differently, but, you know,

525
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,360
hindsight's a great thing.
And that so, but no, I think, I

526
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:10,920
think he said he's been an
inspiration to the industry And,

527
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,200
and he's really, he's really
shown the way about what real

528
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,240
social license to operate means,
the way that he's invested both

529
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,600
himself and his companies, you
know, in, in making sure that

530
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,600
host countries and host
communities seriously benefited

531
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,000
from having mining done in their
presence.

532
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,640
So so mining stopped at at Lulu
in in January.

533
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,320
Then the state took control in
June, the the lease is up for

534
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,280
renewal in in Feb of 26.
Do do you see from where they

535
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,320
are now?
There's there's a way back to to

536
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,720
recover that situation.
Look, I, I don't know enough

537
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,760
about it.
I mean, there always is a way

538
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,160
back.
There has to be a way back and

539
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,480
you know, probably going to cost
some money.

540
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,520
But I think, you know, the, the
team is a very good team of

541
00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,200
operators and they can, I dare
say they can be more successful

542
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,520
in terms of producing gold then
can a team put together by the

543
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,880
Malayan government.
Not that I know the people

544
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,160
involved particularly, but no,
look, it's, it's one of those

545
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,600
things, it's an interesting 1,
isn't it?

546
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,000
And then of course, rolling
across the border into Burkina

547
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,640
Faso, you know, my friend
Richard from West Africa, and he

548
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,840
said he had a, you know, a few
challenges there as well.

549
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,000
So look, all of these things can
be solved.

550
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,200
It's just a question of, I
think, sitting down and having,

551
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:29,960
you know, sensible conversations
with all parties.

552
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:35,880
The the part of the the equation
for for for Barrack in the

553
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,960
background, although it's I
don't think reported in in the

554
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,920
media, but it is widely
understood in the investment

555
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,200
community is that Elliott, the
activist hedge fund may may have

556
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,840
built a bit of a stake there,
may have made plans or envisages

557
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,360
a a breakup play to realize
value.

558
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,440
Barrack was was underperforming
over the duration of the

559
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,800
preceding five years.
Now in kind of rapid succession,

560
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,240
we see numbers on Four Mile be
pulled out of the back pocket

561
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,520
like wait, what a phenomenal
asset we was like what how was

562
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,400
that?
Just yeah, there and, and then

563
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,600
and, and also the departure of
of, of Bristow even even with

564
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,720
Four Mile disclosed.
So the, the break up play as

565
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,280
it's discussed goes something
like Nevada gold mines separate.

566
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,320
Then you have developing world
gold production, then you have

567
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,120
developing world copper growth.
33 potential kind of breakup

568
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,760
options when you say when you
say Jean could could buy the

569
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,240
developing world gold production
and I presume you talking about

570
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,760
and leave the couple growth
elsewhere.

571
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,080
Look, I was, I was being
somewhat facetious about that,

572
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,080
but no, no, it's just that, you
know, keep talking about this

573
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,200
shit.
Sounds like I've got a thing

574
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:47,960
about.
It No, no, no, I bring it up,

575
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:48,720
I've.
Got a thing about it.

576
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,080
Yeah, but they did they did
raise a few billion dollars

577
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,520
there the other day, I gather
when they when they, you know,

578
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,560
listed in Hong Kong and yeah and
probably will be looking to, you

579
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,160
know, upgrade the call to the
asset portfolio and and some of

580
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,280
those African assets that are in
the barracks stable are pretty

581
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,200
darn good.
Yeah, you know.

582
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:08,680
Trev's on the payroll at Zegian.
Says a bit.

583
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,120
Is he?
I'm not, but I'm like, my God,

584
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,080
you have to just look at the
talk about.

585
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,480
I know it's unfair to compare
them with western miners but my

586
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,800
God the capital allocation has
been like like yeah like 2

587
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,680
bounds above the Western miners
if.

588
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,280
If we look at another sort of
corner of the the world, so

589
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,640
obviously you've got experience
in in Southeast Asia in in

590
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,960
Africa, but in the, in the
Middle East.

591
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:35,320
Rico Dick that that was one of
the other criticisms of of

592
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,040
Barrick promoting this as their
their growth project.

593
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,320
It wasn't within the the risk
appetite of a number of large

594
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:43,720
investors.
How do you kind of think about

595
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:44,280
that?
Yeah.

596
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,280
Look, I'm very, very sympathetic
to that situation, I must say.

597
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,920
Yeah, we've got an asset in
Sudan, Perseus did.

598
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,840
And you know, from a geological
perspective, that asset is

599
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,880
arguably one of the best assets
in our portfolio by a longshot.

600
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,560
It's just that geopolitically
it's very challenging to develop

601
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,720
in that particular environment
at the present time.

602
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,320
And I dare say the same could be
said of of barracks project as

603
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,320
well.
But look, you know, all of these

604
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,240
things have their day and
sometimes you need to take a bit

605
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,400
of a risk to realize the
benefit.

606
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,000
Who knows that that property
might turn into, you know, the

607
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,400
crown in the jewel of somebody
along the way.

608
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,240
I mean, there's certainly the,
the mineral resource by all

609
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,360
accounts is pretty spectacular,
as indeed is the mineral

610
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,760
resource on our mayor sand
project in Sedan.

611
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,080
But look, you know, there's a
reason why some of these

612
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,680
projects haven't been developed
sooner than they are now.

613
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,440
It's not because of the quality
of the asset, it's because of

614
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,280
the location of the asset.
And, and that's the thing that

615
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,760
you need to judge.
And as I was saying, Africa is

616
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,840
dynamic.
It is does change, you know,

617
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,120
almost on a cyclical basis.
And I dare say, you know, places

618
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,040
like, you know, Middle East
Pakistan, they're they're in a

619
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,080
similar, similar vein.
Absolutely.

620
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,640
We've, we've heard that from
sort of all, all parts over and

621
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,800
it's just a remarkable part of
the world that hopefully one day

622
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,600
we can all sort of go and go and
visit and have assets that are

623
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,520
fruitfully mined because it's,
yeah, it's, it's astounding the,

624
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,280
the quality.
Now one of the things that is

625
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,480
really quite challenging, this
is something that we noticed

626
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,280
like we we're very comfortable
working in the African setting.

627
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,360
In the Arabic setting, the
cultural aspects are quite

628
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,760
different and how you actually
can adjust to that and factor

629
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,840
that into your thinking is
something that I don't know that

630
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,000
everybody can get really
comfortable in that environment.

631
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,960
It is distinctly different.
And, you know, that was

632
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,440
something that we were coming to
grips within the Sudanese

633
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,280
situation because Sudan is where
the Arab world meets the African

634
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:43,920
world.
And you've got a pretty, pretty

635
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:45,520
fair mix, but it would be
certainly different.

636
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,960
And it's something that, as I
say, it's not, it's not for

637
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,360
everybody.
But if you could ever manage to

638
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,840
work comfortably in that, then
the riches are there, that's for

639
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:55,840
sure.
I mean, there's been a few

640
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,800
notable successes over time.
I mean, and, and a few failures

641
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,040
as well, I might add.
But yeah.

642
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,160
The the big one of the biggest
rewrites you can get in our

643
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,520
industry is when you deliver one
of these geological phenomenal

644
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,160
projects in a part of the world
that people thought was too

645
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,960
challenging or difficult to
deliver at a certain point in

646
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,680
time.
You only have to look as far as

647
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,480
London gold in, in Ecuador, you
know, even even Ivanhoe with

648
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,840
with Camoa.
Like just just look at the the

649
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,440
accretion that comes from, you
know, after the point where the

650
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,040
actual ore bodies delineated to
when it's producing, it's

651
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:32,880
phenomenal.
I know if absolutely.

652
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,760
I mean, even in my own
experience with the hair gold,

653
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,840
yeah.
I mean, we argued for three

654
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,080
years about whether the volcano
on Lahir was extinct or dormant.

655
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,080
I mean, that was that was, you
know, one of the things.

656
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,160
I mean, that was a pretty wild
new frontier in those days.

657
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,160
So yeah, there's there's plenty
of examples out there.

658
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:51,600
I'm.
I'm sorry, going to say where,

659
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,640
where Maya sands goes.
I mean, you, you look across the

660
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,720
border into Egypt as well,
Sudan, both former British

661
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,920
colonies, both Muslim nations
and the recent deal with with

662
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,200
Anglo gold going, going there
to, to buy big gold mine in, in

663
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,040
Egypt.
You know, geologically they're

664
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,440
very close to, to one another
and even sort of culturally

665
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,800
they're, they're not too far
apart from one another.

666
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,320
So yeah, want to keep an eye on,
I think for the for the future.

667
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,120
I think so because I mean, you
know, we, we were making very

668
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,239
good strides actually on the
project and we're drilling out

669
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,000
the ore body and preparing for a
development similarly to what

670
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,199
we're doing with, you know,
with, with Neon Saga right now.

671
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,400
And had the, had the war not
broken out, then we would have

672
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,719
been, you know, getting into
development very shortly

673
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,760
thereafter.
We really liked the project and

674
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,920
had a really terrific team of
people there, I must say, who

675
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,480
fortunately we've actually taken
them down to Tanzania and

676
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,320
they're doing a fantastic job
down there.

677
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,040
But it's, it's an exciting part
of the world, but it's not for

678
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,600
everybody.
And that's the same thing we're

679
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,760
mentioning, you know, barracks
exercise.

680
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,840
It's not for everybody, yeah.
But for those who stay the

681
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,440
journey, I think the rewards are
there.

682
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,680
Yeah, absolutely.
I think we should move this

683
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,520
conversation to China, another
part of the world and and BHB.

684
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,640
So China, I'll give a bit of
context for, for people that

685
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,920
haven't followed this one, have
put a temporary ban on

686
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,080
purchasing BHB or so this, this
was off the back of putting a

687
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,560
bit of a pause on Jimbal bar
blend fines, which we saw maybe

688
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,240
2-3 weeks ago.
And just just sort of seeing

689
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:23,360
these headlines roll through,
seeing the messages kind of come

690
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:28,920
through like shocking, just like
unbelievable kind of stuff

691
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,840
because it always seemed as if
iron ore was the one thing that

692
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,960
the Chinese couldn't touch.
We obviously had our, our trade

693
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,480
dispute with wine, beef barley
throughout COVID on the back of

694
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,880
wanting an inquiry into what
happened in, in 2020.

695
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:44,960
And that hurt a lot of
businesses here in Australia,

696
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,800
but it was always seem as if
iron ore couldn't be touched.

697
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,640
And lo and behold, in 2022 you
see the the formation of the

698
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,680
China Mineral Resources Group.
So this is to represent all the

699
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,520
steel mills there, more or less,
and to kind of consolidate the

700
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,080
buying, to consolidate power to
the Chinese steel mills that are

701
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,760
the biggest buyers of this or
from the likes of Rio BHB, Valet

702
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,120
and the like.
And it, it leaves us in a, a

703
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,960
fascinating position in this
point in time because we've got

704
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,520
Simandu coming online later this
year.

705
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,840
You've got steel meals being
unprofitable for the longest

706
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,640
time Now they're, they're in a
world of pain as well.

707
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,120
You have markets across the
world just flooded with

708
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:31,600
abundance of, of steel product
and you have Australia as a, as

709
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,680
a country thinking, hey, shit,
what's going to happen to 20% of

710
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,760
our exports?
20% comes from from iron ore.

711
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:40,760
So I think as a nation we have
to kind of think about it as

712
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,480
well.
But I'll jump over to you guys

713
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,880
before I talk too much about it.
What, what was the sort of first

714
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,320
reactions, Trev, you had?
Remarkable, wasn't it?

715
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,600
Yeah, yeah, I mean truly
remarkable the the point you

716
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,040
make there on, on, you know,
iron ore always kind of being

717
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,680
yeah, sacred from from any
escalated like trade, trade

718
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,560
dynamics for China.
I think that's I think that's

719
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,720
changing.
Like I think that that's that's

720
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:10,080
an immediate observation here
would obviously, you know, the

721
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,520
growth and emergence and effect
that CMRG is having is a really

722
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,640
notable part of this.
Like what a what a wonderful

723
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,680
equation it's been for the iron
ore producers for such a long

724
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,520
time who, who are exporting
their commodity to various

725
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,800
different steel mills in China
who are all kind of competing

726
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,080
with each other.
And what is CMRG effectively

727
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,480
trying to do?
Well, yeah, consolidate that

728
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:30,600
you've got a lot more pricing
power when you consolidate the

729
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,920
buying to just one, one buyer.
I'm sure if you were selling you

730
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,640
go to just one bullion, they'd
set the price rather than be

731
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,040
this like very liquid thing,
Jeff.

732
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,120
And, and as a result of of that
dynamic, now that you've got SIM

733
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,880
and do coming online, I think I
think a read through is trying

734
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,120
like China's pretty confident
and comfortable that SIM and do

735
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,800
is going to going to be
delivered And, and that that

736
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,920
always going to come on on time
or or in in abundance.

737
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,920
And it gives them more
flexibility to to put the

738
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:04,200
pressure on the likes of BHP in
a in a time when when that might

739
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,200
have been unfathomable before
they can do it, They're

740
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,600
comfortable with supply the the
confidence he can do is going to

741
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,000
is going to deliver.
And I, and I think the fact that

742
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,400
this news came out immediately
immediately after elbow and,

743
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,000
and, and Donald Trump sort of,
you know, having having a chat,

744
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,480
but, and immediately before he
can do it, like I don't think

745
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,560
that's coincidence.
I think there's, there's a, a

746
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,240
pretty clear message being sent
here.

747
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,440
It's also on the eve by the way
of, of like, like the Gin's

748
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,000
nearly the biggest mining
company in the world.

749
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,480
In fact, who's it going to
overtake?

750
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,480
Eventually it's going to
overtake PHP, right?

751
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:41,680
Yeah, no, it's interesting
though, isn't it?

752
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,920
I mean, people, you know, say
let the market do the talking.

753
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,040
Well, this is the market doing
the talking.

754
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,000
You know, that they've, the
Chinese have moved away from a,

755
00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:53,680
you know, a major supplier.
They've got an alternative and

756
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,840
they're letting the talk happen.
But it is interesting, actually,

757
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,960
when I first sort of read this,
it reminded me very much of my

758
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,160
early career where I was
involved in the coal industry

759
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,440
and we used to sell all that
coal to Japan and the Japanese

760
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,000
buyers, you know, used to work
in concert.

761
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,040
And, you know, just observing
what used to happen in those

762
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,760
days, there was, there was a
ceiling and there was a floor.

763
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,560
You know, if the, if the price
that you were getting from the

764
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,480
Japanese when up, the unions hit
you on the other side, bottom

765
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,400
side for, for labour and, and,
and vice versa, you know, if the

766
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,880
unions weren't bidding you, then
the, the, the market was coming

767
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,760
down and we traded in a band
pretty much where you weren't

768
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,560
going to make super profits.
But you know, because the market

769
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:36,160
was saying this is what you can
have.

770
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,440
And you were, you were price
takers almost in under that

771
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,080
scenario.
And you had to cut your cloth to

772
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:42,000
suit.
Yeah.

773
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,840
And to tie that in with this,
this dynamic really started in

774
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,600
earnest in in late 2009 when
Marius Cloppers broke the fixed

775
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,440
price.
I mean, very similar dynamic in

776
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,400
iron ore and the, the big steel
mills and the iron ore players

777
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,640
would meet once a year around
the, the Japanese New Year and

778
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,680
they'd set the price for, for
global and everyone would be

779
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,640
priced plus or minus depending
on their, their all qualities.

780
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,960
And then Marius Cloppers came in
and said, no more of that.

781
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,880
We want, we want the spot.
We want free floating pricing

782
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,480
and.
To, to tie it to the comment you

783
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,320
just made about let the market
kind of work it out.

784
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,800
That's what always the, the
Aussie government said, they

785
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:19,840
said we're not getting involved.
Let's just stand back, let the

786
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,680
market work it out.
And now Elbow's stepping in

787
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,080
saying, hey, let's work it out,
guys, come on.

788
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,600
Well, you think you don't?
Yeah, I'll leave that one alone,

789
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,440
I think.
It's yeah.

790
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,000
I find this so fascinating.
I don't think you have to be a

791
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,520
big theorists to to think this
isn't a coincidence when Trump

792
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,600
and Albanese are meeting.
And we'll talk more about their

793
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,440
discussions as well, because
that's kind of China's playbook.

794
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,320
It has been for for a long time
now.

795
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:47,960
They're just let you know, you
know, who's the who's the boss,

796
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,480
who's the real buyer of these
kind of commodities.

797
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,280
And with this one here, I
suspected it'll blow over in, in

798
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,680
a week or so, but it's the the
signal that's been sent that is

799
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,040
astounding.
And one for us to all take on

800
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,720
board as we as we do see Simon
do come online later this year

801
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:07,040
and we monitor that one.
Obviously that's a lot of

802
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,560
Chinese ownership in that asset.
So it's not lost on them to.

803
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,400
Blow over.
But who makes the concession

804
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:13,960
right?
BHP is tight lipped.

805
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,600
They're not.
They're not responding to media

806
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:21,840
inquiries about this.
So yeah, like if if BHP is the

807
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,920
one that makes the concession to
continue this arrangement, it

808
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,320
shows, it tells you a lot about
where the real power lies in

809
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,600
that relationship.
Yeah, I think there would be a,

810
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,240
a, a bit of give on the BHP part
then a nice sort of shake hands

811
00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:38,920
and and save face for everyone
and and kind of get on with it.

812
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,440
But it does make you sort of
think about the the future of

813
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,960
the majors, the future of the
the big iron ore producers and

814
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,520
where they kind of look, because
we've spoken about this a number

815
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,520
of times there, there is no
metals market as as big and

816
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:51,080
lucrative as the iron ore
market.

817
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,680
Copper's just not of the same
sort of scale.

818
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,080
And it's hard to to build that
dominance and build that kind of

819
00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:59,360
foothold in it.
We saw the Chinese kick up when

820
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,520
when Anglo and BHB were were
doing the dance because of the

821
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,680
power that would give BHB in in
the copper market.

822
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,400
So where do these guys go?
I mean the the returns aren't

823
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,200
going to come from from potash
like they like they've done so

824
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,320
for for iron ore, so.
Here's a here's a hypothetical

825
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,000
I'll give you mate.
What happens?

826
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,360
Like what happens if China
invades Taiwan in 2-3 years

827
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,640
time?
Where's BHP is all going to go?

828
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,520
Not the genre.
Let's hope we don't have to have

829
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,200
to answer.
A good question but not going

830
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,600
there I.
Just think investors should

831
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,360
think through these scenarios
like, like, you know, yeah,

832
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,760
these are not like, these are
not conspiracy theorist

833
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,920
scenarios that could happen.
There's a probability associated

834
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,160
with these these things and
there's second order, 3rd order

835
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,800
implications of, of, of these
dynamics.

836
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:53,760
Yeah.
Don't want to play into that one

837
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:55,200
too much, but I think
commodities would do

838
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,080
tremendously well out of an
unfortunate situation like that.

839
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,080
So let's hope we don't have to
say that one.

840
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:02,560
Let's jump into great control
guys.

841
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,400
Let's start giving some some
rating.

842
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,720
So for those that haven't
followed this one, we're going

843
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:09,520
to talk about the big company
moves, the big corporate actions

844
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,160
and the big government moves in
the mining market.

845
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,800
So we'll kick things off with
Alcoa and their decision to

846
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:19,640
permanently close Kwinana.
So this had sort of been seen

847
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,360
coming for for a little while
now, but it's now made permanent

848
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,040
from previous care and
maintenance and it's going to

849
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,520
see another 220 jobs go from the
South of Perth here.

850
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,640
And there's a lot of interesting
ramifications to come off the

851
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,320
back of this one.
When we had our conversation

852
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,840
with aluminium, our, I think
about that conversation quite a

853
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,560
bit, Trev.
We were reflecting on how the

854
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:46,280
bauxite alumina aluminium
markets look in 5/10/20 years

855
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:47,840
time.
And one of the things we spoke

856
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,920
about was Indonesia and the
emergence of Indonesia because

857
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:56,840
they are going to continue to
take market share in a sense and

858
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,480
that is going to be at a higher
emissions cost.

859
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:05,320
It's going to be at high cost
across the board and that is a

860
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,840
direct result of the
environmental policies, the

861
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,720
permitting policies and the cost
of energy here in in Perth.

862
00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:14,720
So that's something we've got to
kind of grapple with as a nation

863
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:18,000
and we've we've spoken about it
a bunch for Alcoa.

864
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,440
It's a pretty economic decision.
This, this wasn't a profitable

865
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,200
operation and it's going to cost
them a billion odd Aussie

866
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,040
dollars to close this thing over
over six years time.

867
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,720
I think they sort of broke it
down, but it's a, you know, when

868
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:38,200
I think about rating this type
of thing for them, it's yeah, AB

869
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,880
and a type of thing like it's an
unfortunate but obvious kind of

870
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,560
decision that they have to make
and it's going to going to cost

871
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,720
jobs here in Australia.
But I think that the broader

872
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:50,760
decision for for the government
here in Australia is a big one.

873
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,320
And I know we've spoken about it
quite a bit recently, but it's a

874
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,240
it's another sort of strike
against the Future Made in

875
00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:59,400
Australia campaign.
And it set off a bit of a hot

876
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,440
rod between Susan Leigh, the
opposition minister here, and

877
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,760
the Madeleine King, the
resources minister.

878
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,240
But yeah, do you guys think
about it differently?

879
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:09,360
Do you have a different kind of
perspective on on where this one

880
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,560
goes?
I don't yeah, I don't used to be

881
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,040
like I don't think there was
anywhere where Konan was was

882
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,720
going to not be on care and
maintenance anymore.

883
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:19,760
That's effectively yeah, OK,
cool.

884
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,600
Permanent shutdown mothballing
We, we sort of knew that

885
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:29,800
already, but I think we lack
like a, an, an Illumina champion

886
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,760
that has the, the local
importance that that he's, that

887
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,080
he's warranted.
And what do I like?

888
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,080
What do I mean by that?
Like maybe live in Perth, Like

889
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,360
how often do you even think
about Orsley or, you know, or,

890
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,600
or Alcoa was two other
refineries that they've got down

891
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,000
South.
If you're driving down there,

892
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,960
like you're kind of absent from,
from your mind a lot of the

893
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:54,600
time.
I, I'm a big advocate for S 32

894
00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:01,640
spinning off it's Illumina OPS
and, and if you can, if you can

895
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:07,440
merge them with, with, with
Alcoa's, you know, like WA OPS,

896
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,400
then all of a sudden you've got
ASX listed national champion.

897
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,000
Get behind it.
They'll have great, you know,

898
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,040
better capability to have
government support.

899
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,040
Like that's the thing.
She traded a much higher

900
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,720
multiple than S $32 just based
off Alcoa's multiple Happy days.

901
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,120
It's an interesting 1, isn't it?
I mean, from the outside you

902
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,920
don't know the inner workings,
but you'd have to say that there

903
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,000
must be a very compelling reason
for them to cut that off.

904
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,000
And it may be as you know, a
technology issue or something of

905
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,240
that nature.
But I mean, if they're not

906
00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:40,080
making money, then it's a good
decision.

907
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,000
But it does beg the question,
doesn't it, about Australia's

908
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,000
capacity to produce anything.
And, and so really understanding

909
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,600
why is it that it isn't
economic, you know, is it a

910
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,200
function of regular over
regulation?

911
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:53,600
Is it a function of labour
costs?

912
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:59,560
What is it, you know, is this,
you know, one of many industrial

913
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:01,920
complexes that's going to shut
over a period of time?

914
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:03,320
And then where does that leave
us?

915
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,600
You know, our capacity to
produce stuff here, it's pretty

916
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,800
modest as it stands now.
And I'd be pretty concerned if I

917
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,520
was the government about about
that happening.

918
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,360
But you know, there's obviously
this is not the decision that

919
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,080
came overnight as you said.
And I dare say this has been

920
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,800
crawled over from every angle by
both the company itself and and

921
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,120
the regulators who I'm sure have
been tapped to keep things going

922
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,480
given the employment aspect of
it as well.

923
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,520
So it's a, it's an interesting
situation and probably one of

924
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,960
the, you know, part of an
evolving story, I would say.

925
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,600
Yeah.
And I think it's the, the kind

926
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:40,120
of perfect segue for our next
topic, which is Albanese talking

927
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:45,080
about the, the mineral reserve
and ours kind of geopolitical

928
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,720
relationships with the likes of
Britain and, and the US.

929
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:50,760
So I'll give a bit of context
again on, on this one.

930
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,240
But the, the timing of this,
this article and this news

931
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:56,560
coming out just kind of made me
laugh a bit because in

932
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,760
preparation for Albanese's
meeting with Trump, you've got

933
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,360
him emphasizing that the value
add of our minerals and our

934
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,800
mineral reserve, strategic
mineral reserve, which hasn't

935
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,400
yet been put together.
And then he's also talking about

936
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,520
the the role that that's going
to play in international markets

937
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,520
in stopping the manipulation by
state owned enterprises.

938
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,400
And this has literally come hot
off the heels of Konada shutting

939
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:22,680
as well as China banning PHP
products.

940
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,600
So you can't really make this
this kind of stuff up.

941
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,200
Wasn't he, wasn't he?
Yeah, like value add, not just

942
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,120
digging export.
And he and he started our

943
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,360
renewable energy as a, as a, as
a great source to be competitive

944
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,080
in that landscape as well.
It, it felt a bit detached from,

945
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,600
from reality, I think to, to
kind of put it lightly.

946
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,520
But again, I, I don't think it's
a coincidence with the, the

947
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,720
actions that we've seen from,
from China.

948
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:50,440
But there was a few more really
interesting tidbits coming out

949
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,800
the back of this.
So they are in talks with

950
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,760
Britain to put together about $7
billion in funding for mineral

951
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,440
projects in Australia.
So if that could come over the

952
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,360
line, that would be huge for
Australia because that's more

953
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,160
money than our own government's
put towards projects here.

954
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,920
And the French were very keen to
do the same reportedly, but

955
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:13,640
their government's falling apart
so they couldn't send a

956
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,840
delegation over.
But if we could get these sorts

957
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,680
of things over the line, then
you know, it's not Australian

958
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:21,640
taxpayer money.
All of a sudden the dynamics

959
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,240
very different and they were
talking about actually selling

960
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:28,000
shares in this strategic reserve
to countries like Britain, to

961
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,280
countries like France and that
would bring money in the door.

962
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,880
So that's a very different
dynamic to what we've been

963
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,280
seeing with regards to this
strategic critical interval

964
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:37,440
reserve, which?
It's an interesting

965
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,640
conversation, isn't it?
It's a great one to have at A at

966
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,320
a theoretical level, what does
it actually mean in terms of

967
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,400
who's going to dig this stuff up
and and and put it to market?

968
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,760
I mean, it's very hypothetical.
I would have said, I mean, is

969
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:55,040
elbow going to go out and, you
know, mark out a, a lease to to,

970
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,040
well, actually do some
exploration?

971
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,360
I don't think so or any of, of
any of his people.

972
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,360
But you know, what is
interesting I think is the is

973
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:09,160
the influence of geopolitics on
the whole resources industry.

974
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:10,840
And you're seeing it in a lot of
places.

975
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:15,440
I mean, Trump talking to Ukraine
about having access to criminal

976
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:20,000
to, to mineral resources,
critical minerals in return for

977
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,160
arming them.
And I mean, we had a had an

978
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,640
interesting conversation with
somebody recently, a country

979
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,240
that is arming all sorts of
people in Africa about how their

980
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:34,200
intention was to start getting
payback by taking mineral

981
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,600
properties or being given
mineral properties.

982
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,720
Now, you know, they weren't
wondering what they're going to

983
00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:42,000
do with them when they got them.
But I think there is a general,

984
00:50:42,240 --> 00:50:45,320
there's a great appears to be an
involvement of, you know,

985
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,920
governments in this whole
conversation, but it is a high

986
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,320
level conversation.
And how you know, if UK was to

987
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,680
put $8 billion into Australia,
for instance, how does that,

988
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:57,840
what does that actually mean?
Do they go and buy shares in

989
00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:00,800
local companies?
Do they go and build a

990
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,520
management team to do the work?
I don't know.

991
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,160
It's interesting thought.
It is indeed.

992
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,320
And you got you got Kim Beasley
here arguing that that the

993
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,840
security risks of over
dependence on China for critical

994
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,800
minerals are so extreme that
Australia should tip a bucket of

995
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,040
money into the sector and not
worry about profits.

996
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:20,520
Other people's money.
Other.

997
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,520
People precisely.
I'm so glad you, you see it that

998
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:28,880
way, Jeff, because, yeah, like
proper, proper capital

999
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:30,520
allocation.
You you think about the

1000
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,360
implications and the
consequences of poor of poor and

1001
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:38,040
governments have a have a habit
of whenever there's a problem on

1002
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,440
the table, there's a mantra of
we must do something, there's a

1003
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,520
problem, we must do something.
But what governments typically

1004
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,480
don't estimate very well is the
unintended consequences of doing

1005
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,200
something or even the measure,
but the intended consequences.

1006
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,240
What's the cost?
If government buys at guaranteed

1007
00:51:53,240 --> 00:51:57,760
prices of some of the strategic
metals or the likes, then you

1008
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,040
know, what about crowding out of
private capital?

1009
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,000
Or what about introducing
misallocation?

1010
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,640
Because, you know, you've got
you've got the an effective

1011
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,440
subsidy machine that is now
subject to lobbying to to

1012
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,000
maintain whatever profitability
is there for a short term just

1013
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,880
to build a stockpile.
I mean, yeah, I think that the

1014
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:16,920
costs are always very poorly
thought through.

1015
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,200
When you've got a pressing
problem that you need to act on,

1016
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:21,680
sometimes doing nothing is the
right thing to do.

1017
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,840
That's the real, real big
concern that the political

1018
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,880
politicization, that's the right
word of these things.

1019
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:32,280
And we saw a bit of an inkling
for this when just last year

1020
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,200
politics in Canberra were
starting to influence the future

1021
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:40,040
Fund and, and how we invest that
which should be for the people

1022
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:43,520
of Australia and giving them,
you know, areas where in which

1023
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,280
they should or pockets of the
market where they should be

1024
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,560
putting that capital work.
All of a sudden that sort of

1025
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:50,560
just leads to bad taste in in
the mouth.

1026
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:52,160
Give it a day.
By the way, great control.

1027
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,360
One of the interesting things
is, you know, in the context of

1028
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,440
our earlier conversation about
Africa, see if this happens in

1029
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,720
Africa, people call it resource
nationalization.

1030
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,360
It's a bad thing.
You know, you have to apply a

1031
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,600
discount to to the likes of
Perseus.

1032
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,320
Here we are doing precisely the
same thing.

1033
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,280
This is resource
nationalization, you know, at a

1034
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,040
more respectable level.
Isn't it remote?

1035
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:17,080
You're 100% right.
And yet Trump can come out and

1036
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,320
announce it.
Yeah, the US government has 5%

1037
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,920
of Lithium Americans and the
stock shoots up like it's it's.

1038
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:24,600
Different strokes for different
folks.

1039
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,560
Investors are paying attention
though, that's for sure.

1040
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:33,200
Yes, yeah, yeah, Like the
critical minerals industry is

1041
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,840
having its moment.
Like it's it's a sexy topic in

1042
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,880
Washington.
It's not fumble the the footy

1043
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,760
wallets in our hands in front of
girls.

1044
00:53:42,720 --> 00:53:46,480
Should we talk about Grasberg?
Indeed, big, big impacts on

1045
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,080
copper markets from what's going
on at our Freeport's Grasberg

1046
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,720
mine in Indonesia right now.
So on the on the 8th of

1047
00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:56,520
September we there was this
massive mud rush slurry event

1048
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:00,440
struck the Grasberg Block cave
underground operation of flooded

1049
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,280
access routes and attract
workers.

1050
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,400
The event reportedly involved
800,000 metric tons of wet

1051
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:09,600
material sweeping through
multiple levels. 2 workers have

1052
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,160
unfortunately lost their lives,
five are still missing.

1053
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:17,320
A tragic event to the workers.
Freeport declared force majeure

1054
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,840
on contracted copper and gold
deliveries from from the

1055
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,760
effective mine.
Operations in the district are

1056
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,080
suspended.
Damages is being assessed and

1057
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:30,600
rescue efforts are still
continuing to to try and find

1058
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:34,120
the five missing workers.
The implications are are

1059
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,920
serious, especially when you
when you when you look at the

1060
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:39,840
the impact of the copper market
as well.

1061
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:44,040
Like Grasberg alone accounts for
4% of global copper supply. 70%

1062
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:46,920
of the mines previously forecast
copper production all the way

1063
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,040
out to 2029 was supposed to be
coming from from the block cave

1064
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:52,640
report.
They're suggesting that it could

1065
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:56,200
be 2027 before mining rates
return.

1066
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,440
Where this leaves that the
market is is, you know, it's

1067
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,360
intuitively pretty pretty
simple.

1068
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:06,160
It becomes much tighter, much
faster and prices have already

1069
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:10,400
already kicked up on the news.
I think the equities are showing

1070
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,360
it maybe more than the metal
itself at this stage, but

1071
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,760
that'll that'll come.
Pureplay copper names are up,

1072
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,400
you know, between 20 and 30%.
Sandfires up 20 Capstone 22

1073
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,720
enter forecast 31% even 29
metals is up to 30% this month,

1074
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:29,720
despite a 25% sell off yesterday
report, on the other hand, down

1075
00:55:29,720 --> 00:55:32,880
13%.
Well, I think is I struggle to

1076
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,000
grade this like I don't know
what to to grade it, but I think

1077
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:36,200
it's a story worth talking
about.

1078
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,800
But I always just think like,
you know, investors are going to

1079
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,800
be concerned like there's,
there's, there's a few different

1080
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:44,840
things here.
But from the investment

1081
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,560
perspective, investors are going
to be trying to make sense of

1082
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:51,840
how to, how to, how to make
money from a copper supply

1083
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:54,720
tightness that that is here.
And I think you just got to look

1084
00:55:54,720 --> 00:55:58,120
at the, the gold sector for, for
how these things can play out.

1085
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,120
Get margin expansion in the
producers and money flows.

1086
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,480
The producers rewrite first and
then it's then it's the

1087
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,240
developers and then it's then
it's the juniors.

1088
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,160
I think, I think that's just the
way capital flows through the

1089
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,840
industry and the value hunting
right now can be, can be done if

1090
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,920
you're, if you're looking in the
advanced developer space for the

1091
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,120
generalist capital flows
downstream.

1092
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,080
And that's interesting because I
mean, it's tragic event for

1093
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:23,000
sure.
Absolutely.

1094
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:28,840
If I want to have that happen
and people that have lost their

1095
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,560
lives, of course it's been, it
is obviously bad, bad news

1096
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,600
situation.
But if this was the only copper

1097
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,320
project that was reducing output
or shutting down, it would be

1098
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,560
one thing, but it's not, there's
quite a number of others.

1099
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:46,040
So I think there is a pretty
severe impact on, you know,

1100
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:48,440
future supply.
And of course, we know that

1101
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:51,560
unlike gold, I mean, copper is
supply demand, isn't it?

1102
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,800
And, you know, I think you're
right, your thesis is right, is

1103
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,600
that supply is going to have to
come from somewhere along the

1104
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:59,520
way.
And maybe that will attract

1105
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,320
investment into the smaller size
of the business.

1106
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:06,160
But yeah, I mean, it's going to
be a real challenge for them to

1107
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,800
get that going.
I visited the Carmen mine in the

1108
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,000
Philippines quite some years
ago.

1109
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:14,720
Not long after that, had a very
similar incident.

1110
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:18,480
And, you know, the task of
rehabilitating a mind that's had

1111
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:22,040
that occurred to it is, you
know, it's not to be

1112
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,880
underestimated.
How do you read a statement that

1113
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,680
says to come back online in
2027?

1114
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:31,920
Well, it's just to resume like
that they are going to, yeah,

1115
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:34,080
try and reintroduce some, some
more.

1116
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:36,840
Yeah, and this is.
Of course a next year, but 2027

1117
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:41,360
before they there's any chance
of normal rates presuming.

1118
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:43,040
Yeah.
I mean, presumably then that's

1119
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:44,480
not the sole source of
production.

1120
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:46,040
That's, you know, elsewhere on
the thing.

1121
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:49,160
So it might be a percentage of
their production is down, but

1122
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,240
I'm not, I'm not close enough to
be able to say that.

1123
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:56,120
Yeah, I guess what I'm getting
at is let, I'm not quite sure

1124
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:58,680
and I'm not an engineer, but I'm
not quite sure how they would

1125
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:04,520
have any confidence in saying a
week or so after that by 2027

1126
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,400
this is going to be fully sorted
out.

1127
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:11,360
It's a, it seems like a very
sort of, you know, kind of

1128
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:13,560
wobbly kind of number to just
put out there.

1129
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:18,400
I mean, it's a block cave is a,
a very complex method of mining

1130
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:20,720
and they're very rare out there.
There's not many specialists in

1131
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:23,640
these things.
And this is in a part of the

1132
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,080
world that gets, you know, they,
they measure rained by the

1133
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:29,480
meters, not by the the mills.
So it's it's a tough situation.

1134
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:31,800
Yeah, no, very much so.
I mean, that's to say that the

1135
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:35,080
common mine that in in
Philippines was not dissimilar.

1136
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,960
I mean that, you know, the mine
went off the bottom of a of a

1137
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,280
pit, was like a bathtub filled
up full of water and then pumped

1138
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,720
down the hole.
And yeah, it's pretty, pretty

1139
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,800
serious.
And bringing them back, I mean,

1140
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,400
you're right, within seven days,
it'd be a big call to say that,

1141
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,440
but I guess you've got to say
something so.

1142
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:57,360
Yeah, the the there's, there's a
few examples of of yeah, like

1143
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:00,160
where, where events have have
occurred to a caving operation

1144
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,720
of some sort and and resuming
any form of operations is, is is

1145
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,440
really challenging.
I mean, yeah, even in, even in

1146
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:11,280
Tasmania, we've got what's the
one that I forget its name now,

1147
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:15,320
Mount Lyle.
Yeah.

1148
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:17,160
Anyway that that thing's never
coming back.

1149
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:20,440
Got a few other challenges as
well.

1150
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:27,320
Yeah, 100 percent, 100%.
Jeff, we we are.

1151
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:29,520
The next story we want to talk
about in great control is we are

1152
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,360
Gold's scoping study.
It's this this one came out this

1153
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:36,440
week in your in your wheelhouse.
It's a gold developer, one of

1154
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,560
those gold developers with a
rich valuation in, in in in

1155
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:41,800
Africa.
But it's a just on your project.

1156
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:45,920
Yes.
Well, I can only say limited

1157
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:49,160
things about this.
I do know the people who are

1158
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,360
involved in the in the project
and and having had some

1159
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,160
conversations they tell me it's
pretty good.

1160
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,520
But you know, quite how good it
is remains to be seen.

1161
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:00,400
I mean it's in Namibia, I
believe and you know, as a

1162
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:02,440
jurisdiction that's looks quite
attractive.

1163
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,720
You know, they think there's a
another deposit not too far away

1164
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:11,200
that was part of the Ossino
package, which if you could ever

1165
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:14,480
put those two things together,
you'd have a world class

1166
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:17,240
operation there I suspect.
But no good luck to the Weir

1167
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:19,920
team.
I mean, I think you know they

1168
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:23,040
will have done their work and
you know how it stands up to

1169
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:24,600
scrutiny and the fullness of
time.

1170
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,680
You know the market will judge,
but looks all right.

1171
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:29,480
It does.
It does look all right.

1172
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:33,520
A bit over half a billion market
cap now and the MPV that came

1173
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:39,400
out was US about 6:50, so.
That was using a gold price.

1174
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:42,960
That's yeah. 2600 US gold price
assumption.

1175
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:45,280
So yeah, the, the numbers are
interesting.

1176
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,680
And the, and the other project
you, you referenced, yeah, that,

1177
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:50,880
that eventually got bought as
well there.

1178
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,320
So be very, very curious to see
how they continue to develop

1179
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:55,760
this one.
Obvious it's only a scoping

1180
01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:00,200
study at this point in time, but
the, the company has nearly

1181
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:04,440
tripled in, in the last 12
months give or take.

1182
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:06,840
So I think they're, they're on
to a good thing over there.

1183
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,480
And yeah, it's one we've been
kind of following for for quite

1184
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:10,960
some time now.
What do you got?

1185
01:01:11,960 --> 01:01:15,480
It I'd give them, I'd give them
an AI think when you just, I

1186
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:19,000
mean, the numbers are one thing,
but from the, the journey that

1187
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,480
they've been on and the way
they're kind of methodically

1188
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:26,160
executing in a very positive
backdrop, you know, environment,

1189
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,320
it's it's hard to give anything
other than that.

1190
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,560
Yeah, great. 177,000 oz average
production for the first five

1191
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:36,640
years.
If you if you plug in like Spot

1192
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:40,200
gold, which it's hopefully what
they get if they go into

1193
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:42,800
production, you know, sooner
rather than later, then then

1194
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:44,440
you're you're you're paying
back.

1195
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:47,760
I mean the CapEx is bigger out.
It's like it's, it's not small.

1196
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:51,680
It's US 358,000,000 on the the
scoping study numbers now less

1197
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:53,520
if you had synergies with Nervi
operation, I'm sure.

1198
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,440
But but but if you Chuck in spot
even with that CapEx, you pay

1199
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,800
backs a year.
So yeah, it can be a pretty you.

1200
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:05,240
Know that it may well be right,
actually, and I hope to goodness

1201
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:08,560
it is because the last thing in
the world that the industry in

1202
01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:12,320
Africa needs is another, you
know, misstatement of, of value

1203
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:14,720
per SE.
I mean, the guys who are behind

1204
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:19,920
this project know how to promote
projects, you know, and don't

1205
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,520
have to look too much further
than predictive because there's

1206
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:24,960
some, you know, bit of common
blood there.

1207
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,280
So, you know, it's one of those
things that could be really,

1208
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,800
really interesting.
I'd be a little more circumspect

1209
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:32,960
than to give it an A at this
particular point, but

1210
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:35,680
interesting.
Watch this space folks, I'd say.

1211
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,440
Very, very interesting, Jeff.
I yeah, curious about that.

1212
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:46,040
I yeah, I, I, I, I think there's
yeah, good, good promoters, but

1213
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:51,320
how do you, I mean when, when
Joseph Aragi like joined as exec

1214
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,200
chair, like, I mean, he does
have, he does have he's

1215
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:55,200
backable.
I mean he.

1216
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:57,320
He is absolutely did a fabulous
job.

1217
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:01,880
Got sentiment is yeah went from
$20 million market cap to yeah

1218
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,240
producing 500,000 oz per year
and eventually being covered up

1219
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:07,920
by by Anglo.
So, so there is there's a lot of

1220
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,400
there's a lot of merit to just
to backing people who have to

1221
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:15,000
delivered in the past.
So that's why when you when you

1222
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:16,800
have your next thing, you just
got to let us know, No.

1223
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:20,880
No, that I mean Joseph that, you
know, did a fabulous job.

1224
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:24,080
There's no question about it.
And he's he's, you know, a smart

1225
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:26,320
guy.
So but and, and from what I've

1226
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,800
heard, you know, the actual
project is pretty solid as well.

1227
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:31,880
It's a question of, you know,
how realistic, as you know are

1228
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,680
the assumptions that underpin it
and and all the rest of it.

1229
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:37,000
And that's what you know.
We'll find out in due course for

1230
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:38,120
sure.
Yeah, yeah.

1231
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:40,760
We sure will.
Let's move on to sweet and sour

1232
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:42,480
deal.
Trav, kick us off mate.

1233
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:46,920
MMGS US $500 million zero coupon
convertible Note How.

1234
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:49,600
Cool.
Is this yes, MMG, they, they,

1235
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,000
they launched this, Yeah, 500
million U.S. dollar zero coupon

1236
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:56,000
convert due 2030.
There's zero coupon, meaning

1237
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,400
there's no periodic interest.
The instrument is issued at a,

1238
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:02,920
at a, at a discount and redeems
at face value.

1239
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:06,040
So if not competitive maturity
that is so that conversions at a

1240
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:10,160
40% premium and these these if
these notes do end up

1241
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:16,120
converting, it would represent
3.7% of the enlarged total

1242
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,920
issued share capital.
Well, I take sweet deal.

1243
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:21,760
Awesome. 0 coupon doesn't mean
it's 0 cost.

1244
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:25,200
Of course the instrument has
equity upside plus like like

1245
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:28,640
comes with credit downside and
MMG they they said that this was

1246
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:31,000
12 times oversubscribed.
I'm not surprised.

1247
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,120
Like it's a it's a really cool
instrument and a very cool way

1248
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:37,040
for generalists and credit funds
to to to play that copper

1249
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:41,840
thematic like yeah.
And for MMG, I also love the

1250
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:45,840
instrument too.
Sure, if things go sour, it is,

1251
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:49,520
it is debt you do have to
repair, but zero coupon to 2030

1252
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:52,560
and then it's a pretty modest
dilution to the upside.

1253
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:56,600
Like I think, I think it's the
kind of instrument that would

1254
01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:59,200
super speak to a large pool of
capital allocators who typically

1255
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:01,920
have credit kind of risk and
what a phenomenal way to get

1256
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:06,080
equity upside by by playing in a
familiar kind of instrument.

1257
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:11,280
Sweet deal on my part for sure.
Just sort of echo what you've

1258
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,880
kind of said and yeah, the, the
abundance of capital.

1259
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:16,640
I mean, we're going to talk
about the capital raises, but

1260
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:18,800
there is no shortage of capital,
especially for these these

1261
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:20,040
copper players out there right
now.

1262
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,400
Yeah, no, it's an interesting 1
is that 0 coupon is hugely

1263
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:24,600
attractive to me, I've got to
say.

1264
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:28,600
But the, the thing that that
would cause me to pause and

1265
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,200
reflect a little is that
convertibility piece and what

1266
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:33,840
impact that does have on the on
your your share price going

1267
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:35,880
forward.
Does it create a cap on the

1268
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,160
thing or not?
You know, if the, if the copper

1269
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:42,560
price was to take off, it may
well, you know, because what you

1270
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:46,320
do at tractor courses, the
various hedge funds and people

1271
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:49,760
will short it and long it and
God knows whatever else and you

1272
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,080
do get that element of it.
But you know, setting that

1273
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:54,720
aside, yes, it sounds like a
fabulous deal, actually.

1274
01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,880
Next one up is Zijin Gold
International's IPO.

1275
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,640
Now, Trav, you said 12 times
oversubscribed.

1276
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:05,960
I think you said yes.
Zijin called this one 240 times

1277
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:10,440
oversubscribed, which I I had to
wrap my head around.

1278
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:15,400
How much money did they write?
They raised US 3.2 billion and

1279
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:21,880
they only sold call it a a dozen
percent roughly.

1280
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:26,520
So the head code of Zeigen is
still by far the the parent

1281
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:30,280
company majority owner of Zeigen
Gold International, which has IP

1282
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:33,080
owed on the Hong Kong Stock
Exchange.

1283
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:36,880
On its first day it launched up
68%.

1284
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:40,760
So that is a phenomenal first
aid bounce.

1285
01:06:40,760 --> 01:06:43,320
And that limited bit of float
that I just mentioned certainly

1286
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:46,640
helps the the the rush up given
there's not too many shares that

1287
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,760
people can run out and grab.
But this company is now capped

1288
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:53,360
at Aussie $60 billion that that
is just the Gold International

1289
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:54,240
part of it.
So.

1290
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:57,120
Wow.
Like talk about getting an IPO

1291
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:58,520
right?
Like we we spoke about the

1292
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:02,560
Medeka one last week and I mean
that is very small beer compared

1293
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:06,120
to this type of thing.
How much is it up since IPO the

1294
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:10,080
said you mine?
Well, the first day was 68% and

1295
01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:11,680
I think it was a few percent the
day after.

1296
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:15,200
So it's not, not a bad return.
I mean, maybe they priced that

1297
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:19,640
thing wrong.
But the yeah, sweet deals

1298
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:22,120
anywhere, it's kind of come into
my mouth and it just shows the

1299
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,520
the demand for for gold, but
more kind of specifically that

1300
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:29,000
the demand in in China for for
these types of plays.

1301
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:31,600
There's a lot of interesting
takeaways, I think.

1302
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:33,080
What are the Hong Kong listing?
What's the?

1303
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:37,400
What's the?
The merit there like is EG in

1304
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:38,520
Hedco.
Where's that listed?

1305
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:42,880
It's on my, it's in mainland.
Mainland China.

1306
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:46,080
So this is this is, this is this
is IPO on the Hong Kong listing.

1307
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:48,080
So what type of investor is?
It well, Hong Kong's China.

1308
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,640
Still, yeah.
So yeah, I know.

1309
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:53,400
But but but it's it attracts a
lot.

1310
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:55,680
International.
A more broad spectrum of capital

1311
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,160
does it like.
Yeah, they're more willing to to

1312
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:00,840
come to the Hong Kong Stock
Exchange, that's for sure.

1313
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:02,280
I mean, how do how do you take
it on board?

1314
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:04,160
Yeah, No, it's an interesting
deal for sure.

1315
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:07,480
And I mean, I think it's going
to have some very far reaching

1316
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:12,280
implications for the gold sector
given that Sujin and a lot of

1317
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:15,360
the Chinese companies are very
acquisitive at the moment.

1318
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:19,279
And you know, that's going to
flow through.

1319
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:22,800
One of the things of course is
that a lot of the Chinese

1320
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:26,359
companies don't like to compete
against Chinese companies for

1321
01:08:26,359 --> 01:08:28,600
assets.
And so they'll be looking at

1322
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:32,120
Sujin and seeing its capacity
and probably trying to cut their

1323
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:35,359
own version of deals as well,
which may lead to some other

1324
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:38,840
transactions down the track,
which you know, could be quite

1325
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:40,600
interesting for the for the
entire sector.

1326
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:45,600
Do you, do you think it like it
just explained that to me a

1327
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:48,359
little bit more like what
implications does that have on

1328
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,760
on the tip the typical yeah,
gold mining company?

1329
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:56,840
Well, if, if it, you know,
talked before about the cost of

1330
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:58,680
capital for some of these
companies, it's considerably

1331
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:02,880
lower the the premiums that are
attracted on the, on the Hong

1332
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:05,600
Kong market etcetera, etcetera.
You know, buying some of the

1333
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:09,359
other say other African assets
that are carrying an African

1334
01:09:09,359 --> 01:09:13,160
discount that would be re rated
very rapidly on that China on

1335
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:16,080
the Hong Kong Stock Exchange.
So it means they can afford to

1336
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:19,279
pay elevated prices.
And I think that is what you're

1337
01:09:19,279 --> 01:09:22,319
sort of seeing in some measures
already on the continent.

1338
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:27,200
So I I suspect that the decision
listing is going to be a trigger

1339
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:30,439
for quite a bit more
conversation in this area as.

1340
01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:37,479
This is target.
Well, I still have some shares.

1341
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:42,000
Very nice, wouldn't it?
Watch this space indeed.

1342
01:09:42,399 --> 01:09:47,680
To round out on sweet and sour
deal, there was a plethora of of

1343
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:52,760
capital raisings from next Gen.
raising near on $800 million

1344
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:56,480
down, you know, through to I
mean, I rattle a few off here.

1345
01:09:56,480 --> 01:10:00,960
Hill Grove doing 28 million,
Tesoro 34 Saturn upsize to 45,

1346
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:10,200
James Value 25, NGEX that was
100 upscale to 75, something

1347
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:13,640
like that.
Yeah, Canadian markets,

1348
01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:17,120
Australian markets, big
companies, small companies,

1349
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:21,960
copper, rare earths, you know,
gold.

1350
01:10:21,960 --> 01:10:24,880
Obviously there is an abundance
of capital.

1351
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:27,640
Oman, you know, most of these
are getting upscaled as well.

1352
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:32,160
So there is a lot of investor
demand to to say the least right

1353
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:34,640
now for, for these projects out
there.

1354
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,880
And from from the company's kind
of perspective and I've got to

1355
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,400
take the money while it while
it's being offered to you,

1356
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:44,320
especially on the back of a
strong share price performance

1357
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:47,760
for near on every company I've
mentioned theirs has performed

1358
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:51,000
well.
So the the dilution is, is less

1359
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:52,760
so than I would have thought 3-4
months ago.

1360
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:57,000
And if we look at it firstly at
an aggregate kind of level, what

1361
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:00,680
what is this investor demand
make make you kind of feel Jeff?

1362
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:04,000
Yeah, well, it's, it means that
the cop's ticking, isn't it, in

1363
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:05,920
terms of where the, where we are
on the cycle.

1364
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:08,520
But, you know, it's great.
I mean, I guess some of those

1365
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:11,960
smaller companies have struggled
to raise capital, you know, in

1366
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:15,600
the last say 5 or 6 years.
So it's almost like it's about

1367
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:19,560
time some of it's filtering down
to, to the smaller end of town.

1368
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:22,560
Well, unless you say they have,
some of them have had, you know,

1369
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:26,800
price appreciation, but not all.
And no, it's it's interesting

1370
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:28,840
times.
I've, I've got an interesting

1371
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:31,560
question to ask you.
So, so the massive one in the

1372
01:11:31,560 --> 01:11:35,160
mix there next Gen. raising
their own $800 million, that's

1373
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:38,920
world's best undeveloped uranium
project by mile.

1374
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:41,240
In fact, they've probably got
the two world's best undeveloped

1375
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:43,880
uranium projects for the
Discovery PCA.

1376
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:49,080
However, it's going to be a
vehicle with a boatload of cash

1377
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:51,920
and they they can't spend all
that cash fast enough.

1378
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:55,240
How did you feel when you were
on the the acquisition side when

1379
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:59,880
you would see a a junior or a
developer that had a lot of cash

1380
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:01,800
in there?
Did it deter you from M&A

1381
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:04,120
because you don't want to pay a
premium on on cash?

1382
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:07,800
Well, that that certainly comes
into into play of of course, you

1383
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,560
know, doing that, but having a
lot of cash, not a bad thing if

1384
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:14,120
you if you, you pick it up and
you do something more sensible

1385
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:17,000
with that cash.
So that might be a challenge for

1386
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:21,120
next Gen.
Yeah, it'll be interesting

1387
01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:23,560
because if they are sitting
there with a heavy balance sheet

1388
01:12:23,560 --> 01:12:26,720
like that, I mean the
shareholders will be dumping the

1389
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:29,120
table lazy balance sheet, we
want this back.

1390
01:12:29,440 --> 01:12:33,400
So yeah, you just go in the
cycle, I think and Capital

1391
01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:35,800
Management will be a key part of
their business, I suspect.

1392
01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:39,960
Wonder if it's time to buy a
company like Index or a drilling

1393
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:42,760
company or those sorts of things
with a lot of money going to go

1394
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:45,560
into the into the ground.
Well, I think that that's, you

1395
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:46,800
know, that's not a bad thought,
is it?

1396
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:51,360
Or the mining services.
I mean like a podiums of the

1397
01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:53,160
world and people like that doing
engineering.

1398
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:57,080
I mean, you know, it's all very
well raising this money, but

1399
01:12:57,080 --> 01:12:58,200
you've got to do something with
it.

1400
01:12:59,080 --> 01:13:01,520
There's a lot of people who can
help you on that.

1401
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:03,720
Sure, there'll be a lot of happy
stockbrokers as well.

1402
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:09,640
There's always happy
stockbrokers. 100%, yeah.

1403
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:13,000
I, I didn't have too many
thoughts on most of those cap

1404
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:17,000
raisers other than like, my God,
there's a lot of them and the,

1405
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:18,960
the markets are open.
They're absolutely open.

1406
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:21,280
I don't even, I don't think you
could raise money for nickel

1407
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:22,880
right now.
Like that's how absurd the

1408
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:24,960
market.
Let's still get carried away.

1409
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:30,640
Easy, easy.
It's, it's, it's a special time.

1410
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:34,760
I think it's, it's sometimes
hard to to fathom just how like

1411
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:37,360
you know how special these sorts
of markets are, but they don't

1412
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:39,680
cover around all that often and.
Do it well.

1413
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:41,560
Last I'll say.
Absolutely.

1414
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:44,320
Last one guys.
Hidden gems?

1415
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:46,760
Yeah, Trev, you know the drill,
mate.

1416
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:50,920
What's in your mind?
I got one for you, Alpha from

1417
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:53,960
Twitter, big fan.
I think, I think massively

1418
01:13:53,960 --> 01:13:56,440
underrated.
I think like very small subset

1419
01:13:56,440 --> 01:14:00,160
of people that invested in the
sector care for Twitter or have

1420
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:02,680
a Twitter account now.
And I understand the hesitation

1421
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:06,000
of like, there's a lot of noise
now, doesn't mean there's not a

1422
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:09,600
lot of signal too.
And yeah, like last night I was

1423
01:14:10,160 --> 01:14:12,840
awake.
It was like a 10 a 10:00 PM,

1424
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:16,560
maybe 10:30 PM and and the
Canadians are going off their

1425
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:20,000
rocker about this new discovery
that it's a prospect ticket PPP

1426
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:21,680
dot V now hadn't hadn't heard of
it.

1427
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:25,000
The thing gapped up 180% already
and they're they're just

1428
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:28,280
comparing it to, you know, the
best discovery hole since FILO

1429
01:14:28,280 --> 01:14:30,240
or yeah, in a big, big
comparison to make.

1430
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:34,080
And by the end of the day, the
stock closed up 280%.

1431
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:37,160
So that's just one example.
I'm blocking it out.

1432
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:39,320
But I do think like there's a
there's a there's a lot of value

1433
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:43,560
that can be had when you have
the, the right signal and A and

1434
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:47,840
a Twitter feed which effectively
like democratizes access to

1435
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:50,280
information.
And there can be Geo, Geo alpha

1436
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,240
there or it can be turn around
alpha or it can be, yeah,

1437
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:57,040
commodity like crunch alpha, all
of that kind of stuff often like

1438
01:14:57,040 --> 01:15:00,080
proliferates and is shared by by
smart accounts on Twitter.

1439
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:03,040
I like it, Jeff.
If you're not familiar with

1440
01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:06,240
these ones, we unpack just
something that's kind of stuck

1441
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:09,040
out to us over the past week or
maybe even a bit longer.

1442
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:12,800
It can be anything from a movie
recommendation to a restaurant

1443
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:16,840
to a a gadget or app that you're
liking like like Twitter,

1444
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:19,880
anything in your mind.
Well, no, I mean, well, I mean,

1445
01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:22,080
what you were just talking about
that it's a foreign language to

1446
01:15:22,080 --> 01:15:24,320
me entirely so on the wrong
page.

1447
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:27,560
But no, actually the gem that's
come my way in the last few days

1448
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:29,640
is, is completely different to
what you're talking about.

1449
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,760
And that that is that, you know,
coming to the end of my time at,

1450
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:36,720
at Perseus has given me the
opportunity to talk to a lot of

1451
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:40,000
people and both employees and
others.

1452
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:43,840
And, you know, what's really
blown me away is the fact it's a

1453
01:15:43,840 --> 01:15:47,560
large number of really good
people that there are out there

1454
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:50,680
involved in our industry.
I mean, you know, we talk about

1455
01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:53,960
the promoters and, you know,
there's a few characters out

1456
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:56,760
there, that's for sure.
But I can honestly say that

1457
01:15:56,760 --> 01:15:59,760
there's a lot of really, really,
really good people who are

1458
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:02,520
heavily engaged in the industry.
And that gives me a lot of hope

1459
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:04,560
for the future.
I love it.

1460
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:08,080
Yeah.
Really, really good, Jeff, I've

1461
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:10,000
got one or two I think.
I think I'll check in.

1462
01:16:10,440 --> 01:16:12,080
We had just like a long weekend
here.

1463
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,680
So actually went went away out
to to dwelling up around there

1464
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:16,280
for a couple of nights.
And it was kind of remarkable

1465
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:19,960
just driving like barely an hour
out of Perth and how two nights

1466
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:23,240
away felt like a long kind of
time and and walking in the

1467
01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:25,720
hills there of Perth is just
kind of stunning.

1468
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:28,600
So that was yeah, that that was
really awesome.

1469
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:34,080
And add to that, like, I love
reading about Aussie kind of

1470
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:36,600
business kind of success stories
along the way.

1471
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:39,440
So I picked up a book on Carrie
Stokes while I was down there.

1472
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:43,800
And that is just a like a hell
of a, a hell of a story to, to

1473
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:46,400
come from where he kind of came
and, you know, still doing these

1474
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:49,040
kind of things.
So I think there's, there's so

1475
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:52,400
much to be learnt from those
kind of stories and, and reading

1476
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:55,560
about Perth in, in the 50s and
60s.

1477
01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:59,400
It's like a, like a, the Narrows
is just being built at that

1478
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:02,200
point in time.
The, the Perth Airport has just

1479
01:17:02,200 --> 01:17:04,720
been built that year when, when
he kind of arrives here, it's

1480
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:08,440
remarkable to think about the
transformation of our, of our

1481
01:17:08,440 --> 01:17:10,200
kind of city to, to where it is
today.

1482
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:13,680
So that's one in my mind.
Fantastic.

1483
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:16,960
Jeff, any any words of anything
on your mind that you want to

1484
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:18,440
leave our audience with before
we clock off?

1485
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:21,520
No, not, not, not specifically.
I mean, other than, you know,

1486
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:23,960
what I just said, I mean, you
know, it's, it's a, it's a

1487
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:26,640
fabulous industry to be involved
and we're very lucky to be

1488
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:28,960
involved.
And I've had a bunch of really

1489
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:32,480
good years and you know, the
futures, it's, it's evolving,

1490
01:17:32,480 --> 01:17:34,640
it's dynamic.
And, you know, I think the next

1491
01:17:34,640 --> 01:17:36,480
couple of years is going to be
really worth watching.

1492
01:17:37,480 --> 01:17:39,960
I really appreciate you coming
on joining us on on the show and

1493
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:42,480
yeah, everything you you did
through through your time at

1494
01:17:42,480 --> 01:17:44,880
Perseus and and in the industry
has been awesome to follow.

1495
01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:47,880
So thanks, Jeff.
Thanks to you from, yeah, from

1496
01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:50,160
disciplined capital allocators
over the course.

1497
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:52,200
So thank you.
Thank you so much, Jeff.

1498
01:17:53,040 --> 01:17:54,960
Thank you and I appreciate the
opportunity.

1499
01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:57,720
There we go mate, another
fantastic bit of insight.

1500
01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:00,960
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01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:04,160
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1504
01:18:10,280 --> 01:18:15,160
We'll see you at Imark, Uduru.
Now remember, I'm an idiot.

1505
01:18:15,480 --> 01:18:17,880
JD is an idiot.
If you thought any of this was

1506
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:20,440
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1507
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:22,000
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