Gold Miners That Actually Compound (Greg Orrell)

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See, this is the problem with
the gold industry.

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They lower the cut off grade to
profitless prosperity.

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What are you going to do with
your cut off grade?

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You know, are you going to keep
it the same in the coming year

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or keep lowering it to
profitless prosperity?

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You know, if you are an
investor, what you're looking

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for is you want to capture that
margin.

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JD Gold is back, Gold's back.
It's it's having, it's having

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it's, you know, it's coming back
after a little bit of a little

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bit of time in there in the
brief sin bin.

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It was a very pause, just a
pause.

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It's back.
The equities are are roaring

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again.
It's a little bit of excitement

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back in the market earning
season has come out and

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everyone's realizing that these
gold companies are making an

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absolute fortune at the moment.
And so very topically we've got

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we've got the very kind Greg
Aral who runs runs the OCM gold

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fund.
And mate, you've been doing this

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for for 30 odd years.
You're so familiar with the

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Golden Precious equities where
we're delighted to to have you

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joining us all the way from from
the United updates and we're

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keen to talk everything gold
equities with you today.

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All right, my pleasure.
Looking forward to it and enjoy

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your show.
Great to hear Greg.

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I think the the logical place to
kick this one off is the the run

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up in gold equities and the the
even more extreme run up in the

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gold price has seen earnings
like Trav said be quite strong.

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How have you sort of reflected
on the profit margins and the

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the money being earned by minors
across the globe really in in

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the past couple months of
earnings?

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Yeah.
I mean, I think it's been a bit

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slow on the uptake by generalist
investors really.

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If you, if you look back at, you
know, how this year has gone, I

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mean, every quarter you've seen
an increase in the gold price

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and you know, the though the,
the price of the shares have

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gone up, you really haven't
gotten the enthusiasm that you

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would normally would, that it
would be typically associated

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with bull markets.
Partly that is to do with the

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broader market continues to run.
And so, you know, gold is looked

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at as a defensive type of asset.
And so, you know, with the

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broader market running, you
know, especially tech, AI, et

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cetera, you haven't had a lot of
folks, you know, feel like they

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need to chase, you know, into
the gold space.

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And so, you know, you've seen
the GDX come in with, you know,

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20% less shares than, you know,
they've had, you know, at the

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beginning of the year, which
gives you the idea that, you

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know, money is still coming out
of this space.

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So, you know, I, I look at, you
know, where we're going, you

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know, there's more room to more
room to run.

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Obviously sitting in my seat,
I'd like to think that, but you

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know, I still look at it and,
you know, believe that, you

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know, we're going to see more
retail, we're going to see more

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institutional investors come
into this space and you'll see

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these margins start to press
out, you know, So you know what

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happens, you know, in a bull
market, you know, the, the, the

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number of companies that you
know, really start taking off

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and you know, start to, you
know, see M&A at the top of a

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cycle.
You know, you'll see, you know,

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the gold XAU ratio be somewhere,
you know, north of, you know, 6

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probably at a peak.
And you know, you're still, you

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know, at a much lower level than
that right now.

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And so, you know, what we're
still seeing is a lot of, you

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know, still a lot of room to
grow just by, you know,

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investors coming in.
And so if you look at the cycles

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of, you know, when gold goes to,
you know, at a peak, you know,

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you'll you know, the gold price
will peak.

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You know, this is, you know,
looking back at, you know, 1980

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and, you know, the gold price
peaks and you know, the shares

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don't really, I mean, they they
fall off, but then they have the

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real bull market run comes in
that period that came

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afterwards.
And there, you know, there was

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a, you know, big bull market.
I mean, that's when you, you

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know, pulled in, you know, the
barracks that were created and

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you know, the companies were
created with, you know, settling

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at a higher gold price.
And I still think we're going

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to, what's going to happen is
we're going to settle at, you

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know, a gold price that, you
know, once the US can get its

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debt situation squared away is
we're going to get a gold price

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that stabilizes at a, you know,
pretty significant level that,

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you know, folks, you know,
they're still looking back and

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saying, oh, well, gold price
can't handle, you know, it's not

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going to stay above 3000.
And I think right now, when you

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start looking at these gold
shares, you know, they're

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they're starting to get, you
know, a feeling a base of, you

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know, OK, 30 three, $3400.
That's a that's a good base, you

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know, so we're, you know, we're
just kind of just getting our

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feet wet do.
You think the consensus view is

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that gold can't hold above 3000?
I think that has been the

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consensus, absolutely, yeah.
And I mean, the Aussies have

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been weak for a while.
You know, they took off over the

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last month.
And I think that was finally

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some belief, you know, coming in
for, you know, the, the gold

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price is going to hold above
3000.

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It's, you know, you're starting
to deliver, whether it's a West

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Gold or you know many of these
companies, you know they're

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starting to deliver, you know
some, you know decent cash.

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The, the, it's, it's what do
you, when you look back through

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history at the, the periods
where like gold miners have very

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substantial like margin, it does
it, do they actually have a

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sustained period of, of strong
margins typically or does

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inflation often kind of erode
their, their margins pretty

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quickly?
Because that's the in the back

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of my mind, like if inflation
comes back pretty sharply, like

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all of a sudden cost pressures
just surely just eat into into

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the margins.
Yeah.

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I mean, and you've seen some
cost pressures and I mean, right

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now you're starting to see, you
know, where the price of inputs

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has leveled off a bit.
You know, it's, it's, you know,

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they're up and, you know, if you
look at all in sustaining costs,

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you know, being up over the last
year, you know, part of that is,

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you know, when, you know, the
miners are making money, you

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know, they do put money back in
under the ground that they they

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need to put back in, you know,
which you know, then allows them

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to sustain themselves, you know,
when the gold price goes back

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down a bit.
But yeah, you do see a level of

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inflation that comes in.
Everybody wants their piece,

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whether it's governments or
employees.

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But you know, what I've seen so
far is that, yeah, we have a,

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you know, a gold price that, you
know, is allowing for margin

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expansion.
And, you know, the gold price,

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you know, at this port point in
the cycle is going faster, is

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moving faster than the inflation
is.

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And that's important if we're
margin expansion.

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Totally.
The the, the point you made on

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sentiment is, is really
interesting.

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Greg, how do you reflect on the
sentiment in the states?

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Because I see on the one hand
like Walmart selling out of gold

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coins and stuff, but on the
other hand, to the point you

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made earlier, tech is the, the
consensus trade and all these

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sorts of things.
So from your perspective in in

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that part of the world, how do
people think about gold?

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Now people, you know, the, the,
like I said, they're the look at

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gold is from a defensive
standpoint and you've had, you

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know, this money that's moved
into crypto.

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And I think that, you know, at
some point when you, you know,

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there's a high correlation
between crypto and NASDAQ.

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And once the NASDAQ does break,
I still think it will at some

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point.
I mean, you've got NVIDIA and,

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you know, these stocks, Palantir
that are trading, you know, it,

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you know, multiples of, you
know, their revenues and, and

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earnings that, you know,
typically mean that, you know,

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they they've reached a peak.
Yeah, because you, it takes

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years to go in and, you know,
finally earn, you know, those

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multiples.
And, you know, whether it was

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Cisco and, you know, the 2000
era or Sun Microsystems, you

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know, Sun Microsystems, you
know, trading 10 times revenue,

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you know, it's, it just was, you
know, it just gets to the point

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where it's too far.
And, you know, I, I think we're

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getting that now and, you know,
the cycle.

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But you know, still, there's so
much money that's been made in

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NASDAQ and the tech stocks, it's
going to be a real tough to try

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to turn that and have people
believe it's over.

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So, you know, I, I think that,
you know, where sentiment is

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right now, you know, in the gold
space is that, you know, they

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still need to see the, the
market roll over.

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And then you'll then you'll get,
you know, some broader

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participation.
You mentioned that like in the

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in the good times, these gold
companies, they put the money

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back in, in into the ground.
I'm noticing a lot of lowering

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of the cut off grades occurring.
And, and then, and then to

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coincide with that, there's a, a
meal expansion study on the way.

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So like, you know, these gold
miners, they've got excess

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capital, but they're, they're
just lowering the cut off

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grades, doing the meal expansion
and saying that costs are going

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to be able to moderate from,
from economies of scale with a

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bigger meal, but then they're
depleting the resource faster

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once you've got a much bigger
meal, like you kind of, you kind

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of always have to keep that
thing full.

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It's a you can't go back after
doing that.

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So how do you, how do you like
weigh up your, your views of

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just like discipline around not
lowering the cut off grade and,

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and and and doing this sort of
thing?

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Yeah, stay away from those
companies.

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Really.
Why?

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Yeah.
Please.

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Please tell me why.
Like why?

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Why?
Why you didn't?

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Believe that.
I mean look, see this is the

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problem with the gold industry
is that you know they lower the

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cut off grade to profitless
prosperity.

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And so, you know, if you are an
investor, what you're looking

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for is you want to capture that
margin.

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I mean, the story that, you
know, fund managers like to tell

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is that OK, the gold price is,
you know, it's, it's $2000 an

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ounce and it's going to $3000 an
ounce and our cost is 1000.

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And look at we're going to have
100% increase in our margin.

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And, and if you sit there and
lower the cut off grade to, you

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know, .000001, you're going to
be in a position to where, you

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know that, you know, margin goes
down to nothing.

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And this is historically what
has been the problem with the

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gold miners is that they have
destroyed, you know, the

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margins.
And I think, you know, one of

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the things that, you know, I
certainly preach in all the

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meetings is and ask management
are OK, well, what are you going

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to do with your, your cut off
grade?

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You know, are you going to keep
it the same in the coming year

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or, you know, or are you going
to, you know, keep lowering it

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to profit less prosperity?
And then, you know, they all

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say, Oh well, you know, we, you
know, going to try to, you know,

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manage it and you know, you
know, try to keep the margins.

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But you know, we want to make
sure that we extend the mine

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lives because we already have
the capital spent.

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Well, if you have that capital
spent, you know, you don't

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necessarily, you know, you don't
necessarily make more money by

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lowering the cutoff grade, even
though you know some of these

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guys think that they are going
to.

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So Travis, Matt, I'm going to
share something with you that

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Greg shared with me before the
interviews, this little bit of

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insight into his checklist.
Do you know what was the top of

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his checklist for investing in
an underground gold mining

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company?
It's not anything to do with

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lowering the cut off grade.
Is a is a bad thing.

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That's like a.
Not at all.

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The key detail is mate the
company has to use Sandvik

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ground support.
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah of.

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Course.
And it makes sense, right?

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Yeah, great companies want to
work with great people and other

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00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,800
great companies, companies that
deliver great products and why

219
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,400
not work with the best in the
industry in Sandy Ground

220
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,200
Support?
It's a signal of the type of

221
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,720
company you are.
If you understand that using

222
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:34,920
Sandy ground support is going to
save you time, time is valuable.

223
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,520
It's going to save you a lot of
a lot of just like bandwidth

224
00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:40,920
knowing that you can depend on
the product that's coming and

225
00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,360
it's of course going to be as
safe as there is humanly

226
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,800
possible because of the R&D that
goes into making this ground

227
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,040
support a truly innovative
product that's essential for

228
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,960
safety.
We were speaking about this R&D

229
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,160
before, whether it's the Resins,
the Easy 10, the latest bolts

230
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,240
they've got, whether it's the
app, they are innovating on

231
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,320
every single front of the
business.

232
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,560
Not to mention they are working
in every single corner of the

233
00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:07,240
world so they can get that
product to the mine site as

234
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,440
quick as possible.
And of all the things you

235
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,760
mentioned in saving there, the
biggest one is money.

236
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,680
Mate, you know, offense, I can't
wait to I can't wait to go to

237
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:18,000
Kewdale and see some of this
innovation with the main man

238
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,280
Derek, Kurt, I think it's going
to happen later this month.

239
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:21,800
You and I, we're going to Q day
with Derek.

240
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,520
Kurt, I can't wait.
Go Sandy ground support.

241
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:24,160
Go Sandy.
It's.

242
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:28,040
Such an interesting, yeah, such
an interesting reflection on the

243
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,200
on the capital allocation
decisions of management in the

244
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,640
sector.
And I think there's also just

245
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,280
like a, everyone thinks that
they need to have growth in

246
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:36,720
their portfolio.
They, they, they've got to have

247
00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,360
a, they've either got to
maintain production or have a

248
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,720
growth project.
And if you look at the, the, the

249
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,080
gold company that commands the
most, the highest multiple in

250
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,960
the space, they're X growth.
They don't have any growth, but

251
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,800
they, they do, they have, they
have maintained margin like they

252
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,440
have maintained their costs,
right.

253
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,040
Agnico, of course.
Yeah.

254
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,520
So Agnico's, you know, they're,
and they're, you know, right now

255
00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,840
saying, hey, look, if we don't
have any, a good project to put

256
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,400
more money in, you know, we're
going to give that money back to

257
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,840
shareholders.
And that plays well, you know,

258
00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,880
for investors.
And I, I think, you know that,

259
00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,360
you know, there are projects out
there.

260
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,840
I mean, this is this is one of
the things that it's going to be

261
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,840
tough because I mean, when you
look at a mining company, when

262
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,480
they acquire a new project, you
know, they have to look at it

263
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,920
from the standpoint of, of, you
know, getting a return on that

264
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:35,880
capital and whether it's issuing
shares or issuing cash, you have

265
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:40,200
to get a return that is
commensurate with real, you

266
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,800
know, competitive returns in
other industries.

267
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,120
And I think that's one of the
problems that, you know,

268
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,640
historically the industry had is
that, you know, you were, yeah,

269
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,640
in a bull market.
You know, it was growth for

270
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,880
growth's sake.
And if you were going out

271
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,440
looking for a project, you, you
just issued more shares.

272
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,400
You got bigger, everybody got
bigger salaries and everything

273
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,600
was wonderful.
I think, you know, what Agnico's

274
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,800
is doing a good job of is, you
know, they're telling, you know,

275
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,720
investors out there, look, if we
don't see anything good, we're

276
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,120
not buying it, you know, and you
know, they're and also these

277
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,960
miners are not comfortable yet
with this gold price.

278
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:22,480
You know, they're still
sticking.

279
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,760
You know, you know much, you
know, they're cut off grades and

280
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:31,640
everything based on what I can
see right now are based on, you

281
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,720
know, you know, lower gold
prices.

282
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,280
So, you know, they use consensus
gold prices.

283
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,880
You know, consensus gold prices
by the analysts are usually, you

284
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,160
know, pretty far behind because
they're run by banks that, you

285
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,960
know, don't want to see, you
know, much higher gold prices.

286
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,720
How do you then forecast gold?
When you sort of build out your

287
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,280
models or think about it, you
just sort of do various levels

288
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,360
of sensitivity analysis, various
cases.

289
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:04,880
Yeah, I mean our gold price
assumption is much right now.

290
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:11,400
It is lower just because if you
historically go back and look

291
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:16,640
at, you know, a 10 year trailing
average gold price as I believe

292
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,320
is probably the best number to
look at.

293
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,000
And if you just take a simple
average over the last 10 years,

294
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,080
you, you get a, a number that is
significantly lower than the

295
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,320
current gold price.
But you know, if you're a mining

296
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,240
company and you maintain that
you're, you're going to keep

297
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,240
your margins throughout the, you
know, many cycles.

298
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,920
And you know, I think we are in
a, we're in an interesting

299
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,960
period right now in that, you
know, the, the gold price is

300
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,360
really tied to total federal
debt outstanding.

301
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,680
And if you were to look at the
gold price and sneaks and close

302
00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:02,560
the gold window, you'd see about
a 93% correlation to, you know,

303
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,119
the gold price and total federal
debt outstanding.

304
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:11,240
And so if we, you know, the US
could actually get its act

305
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,640
together and start to slow the
rise of total federal debt

306
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,400
outstanding, then, you know, the
gold price would slow down.

307
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,280
But, you know, it's going to
continue to this upward

308
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,640
trajectory as long as total
federal debts going up.

309
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:30,840
I think that, you know, Trump,
you know, he's a real estate

310
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,840
developer and real estate
developers love debt.

311
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,160
And, you know, I really don't
see him, you know, making a

312
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,160
concerted effort to to lower the
debt.

313
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,240
So how would?
You think about positioning the

314
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:50,240
fund if if you were to sort of
see a slowdown in, in gold or in

315
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,040
the the sort of federal debt
level, it's a.

316
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,320
Gold fund mate, it's always a
gold.

317
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:57,680
But there's.
There's various, I mean.

318
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,200
Yeah, I mean you, you certainly
can.

319
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,880
Well, one of the things you do,
I mean, you know, the first

320
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:09,680
thing you do is you really start
chopping off your exploration

321
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,560
and development companies.
I mean, that's, that's where

322
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:17,920
you, you know, the, the axe
comes first then, and then you

323
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,520
go on to your junior producers
and what you do is you just move

324
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,560
up scale.
And so you'll, you'll be, I

325
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:31,520
mean, if you know, we have to be
85% invested in the, in the

326
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,960
space being a gold fund.
So you know, what you can do is

327
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,240
you can buy bullion.
It doesn't go down as as fast,

328
00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,400
as hard as you know, the miners
go down.

329
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:47,640
But you know, what you will do
is, you know, look to have, you

330
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,720
know, larger cap company.
So you just move up cap is what

331
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,520
happens.
So you know, what is, you know,

332
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:59,600
what you haven't seen in this
cycle is you haven't seen, you

333
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,800
know, the big rush in, you know,
exploration and development

334
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,320
companies and you know, the
smaller miners are are, you

335
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:08,800
know, catching a bit of a bid
now.

336
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:15,280
But you know, the, you know,
just the rush to, of excitement

337
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,240
that happens in a bull market,
you know, where you know, a

338
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,000
drill hole comes out and it goes
up a couple 100%.

339
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,080
You know, we're not seeing that
as much, at least in the States.

340
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,640
We're not seeing it.
I mean, you have a few here and

341
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,760
there down in Australia that,
you know, had some nice moves,

342
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,720
but you know, it's still, you
know, it's a, it's a, it's not

343
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:42,480
an easy, easy market to really
gauge the prospects of, you

344
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,880
know, who's going to be the next
winner retail.

345
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,480
Is is coming back here, but
they're yeah that it's not it's

346
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:49,800
not like fever level pitches
yet.

347
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,200
The IPOs are on their way there
and they're a good a good a good

348
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,800
thermometer.
The cap raises are just, it's

349
00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,920
just cap cap raises.
And that that just shows that

350
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,680
there's like a lot of capital
like available for the sector

351
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:03,920
right now.
And that's just just the

352
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,960
observation I've got.
Yeah, I mean you, I mean,

353
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,240
certainly when, you know,
Canaccord sits there and hits us

354
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,720
with, you know, you know, a deal
at night, you know, type of.

355
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,400
Yeah, you have to kind of say
all right, you know, yeah, maybe

356
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,080
things are, you know, you know,
could get a bit frothy, you

357
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,320
know, you know, look, you know,
I, I certainly believe that, you

358
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:33,000
know, we are, you know, due for,
you know, some type of pull back

359
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,440
and then we go again.
I mean, that's just, you know,

360
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,560
what ends up happening is that,
you know, you, you got a lot of

361
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,680
folks that you know, aren't,
aren't involved in the space at

362
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:51,400
all that will get involved.
But yeah, there, there is hot

363
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,760
money that is in the space.
And so, yeah, you'll have 30%

364
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,320
moves and then OK, you pull back
a bit and you know, and then you

365
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,280
go again.
So nothing, nothing wrong with

366
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,760
that.
One of the other reasons or sort

367
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,000
of factors that comes to mind is
the more approach, more

368
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,640
disciplined approach to M&A this
this time around versus 10 years

369
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,400
ago and perhaps people thinking
there's less odds of your junior

370
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,720
kind of getting bored out.
This ties in as well with the

371
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,040
capital discipline, the margin
discipline that you spoke about

372
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,600
earlier.
How do you consider the approach

373
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,400
to M&A in this sort of bull
market that we're in now?

374
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,000
Right.
I think that, you know,

375
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,640
disciplined M&A is, is really
the approach.

376
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,040
I mean, that's what, you know,
folks have been preaching, you

377
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,880
know, for quite a while they've
been in the space sitting in my

378
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,040
seat.
You know, that's what we've been

379
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,560
telling companies is, you know,
just don't go buy something with

380
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,880
it that doesn't have economic
rationale.

381
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,680
And you know, to, you know,
obviously, you know, that if you

382
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,800
have a company that has one
asset and, you know, there's a

383
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,840
short mine life, you've got to
do something in order to keep

384
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,560
the your seat.
So, yeah, it really depends

385
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:13,840
individually on the situation.
But I would say overall, you

386
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,440
know, the bigger miners are are
really generating significant

387
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:23,720
cash right now.
And so, you know, I think that

388
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:30,880
they're been more apt to, you
know, do buybacks than buy

389
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,480
companies.
But you know, they will buy

390
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,520
companies.
I mean that they have to get

391
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,480
comfortable with the gold price
assumptions before they do that.

392
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:44,560
And so, yeah, I'd, I'd like to
see them, you know, really use

393
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,120
cash to buy assets versus
shares.

394
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:52,040
I think that's more accretive.
You know, the other thing to do

395
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:57,960
is, you know, this is, you know,
totally off topic, but is, you

396
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,360
know, instead of, you know,
selling every single Oz, paying

397
00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:07,920
taxes on it, why not, you know,
really put that gold just in the

398
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,400
vault.
Yeah, put it in the vault.

399
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,440
It, you know, it certainly holds
up better than currency has for

400
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:16,840
quite some time.
Yeah.

401
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,400
The.
One, the one gold miner that's

402
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,840
done that for a very long time,
you know, trades at negative EV

403
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,280
Tribune and Rand.
I'm not sure if you're familiar,

404
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,720
familiar with with that company.
Well, it's two companies, but

405
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,720
they've got, they've got like a
collectively owned 50% interest

406
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,720
in the East Kendana joint
venture with, with Evolution.

407
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,680
I think.
I think the amount of gold

408
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:40,680
they've got involved is
enormous.

409
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:46,240
Like it's eye watering.
And I, I just think at some

410
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,320
point, you know, they become
ETFs.

411
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,040
So, you know, there, there's
nothing wrong with that

412
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,360
approach.
And I, I think, you know, the,

413
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,400
the industry has been, you know,
because everybody does

414
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:04,200
everything on, you know, PES and
they've been not willing to

415
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,880
accept companies to, you know,
put the gold on their balance

416
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:09,920
sheet.
Yeah, But yeah.

417
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,600
That's a great point.
Great point.

418
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,280
Should we talk stocks with you,
Greg?

419
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,920
We'd love to kind of peel into
some of the names within your

420
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,120
within your portfolio and also
outside of your portfolio if

421
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:21,560
you've got some spicy views on
them.

422
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:23,960
Yeah, sure.
Let's let's start.

423
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,360
With, with Anglo Gold Ashanti,
lots of making lots of news and

424
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:31,360
talking big, big aspirations in
relation to the yeah, the

425
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:34,480
silicon project area in, in, in
Nevada there.

426
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,960
Are you pretty buoyant about
that, that growth opportunity

427
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,760
And also how do you how do you
see their like their rethink of

428
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,320
other, other assets as a result
of that?

429
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:49,400
Yeah, Look, I think that Anglo,
you know, they, you know what

430
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:56,640
what they've done is, you know,
redomiciled into into the US you

431
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,560
know, the, you know, I think
that was important.

432
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,280
You know, I think, you know, the
fact that they, you know,

433
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,040
basically are no longer a South
African company though yet

434
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:09,200
trade, you know, similar to
goldfields on a lot of days.

435
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:16,320
Yeah, I think that they're in a,
a real good spot to, you know,

436
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,600
finally grow this company.
I mean, and you know, there have

437
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,960
been, you know, you know, if
you, if you look at the assets,

438
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:31,200
you know, they have been shaving
off some so they could be in a

439
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,720
position to, you know, build the
Silicon Valley, the silicon

440
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,000
project.
And, you know, and I think

441
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,880
that's, you know, that's what
they're really looking towards

442
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,040
is, you know, trying to close
the gap with their North

443
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,200
American peers.
And, you know, we've had that

444
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,320
stock for a long time.
And you know, there's been, you

445
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:58,760
know, some, some pain involved.
But I, I think that the new CEO,

446
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,680
he's, he's doing a, he's doing a
good job and, you know, getting

447
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,000
the, getting the company on the
right path.

448
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:11,480
So yeah, we're, I do like, I
like the, I like the trajectory

449
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,880
that Anglo's on.
Yeah.

450
00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:16,680
Do you think they'll like even
even their acquisition of

451
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,600
sentiment like a year ago, it
seemed like that'll pay itself

452
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,480
off pretty quickly at where gold
prices are right now, you'd

453
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,080
imagine.
And they think it was a pretty

454
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:26,360
undemanding price that they paid
there.

455
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:30,240
So yeah, that, that, that'll, I
think that looks pretty like a

456
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,240
pretty great deal right now.
And, and do you think that

457
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,800
they'll, they'll rationalize
like their Australian portfolio

458
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,240
as they kind of, you know,
refocus their, their capital

459
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,920
towards silicon, you know?
I think that they want to

460
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:51,240
maintain presence in Australia.
So, you know, I think that the,

461
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:58,480
the, the assets in, in
Australia, you know, will, will

462
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,000
be there and I don't think
they're for sale at this time.

463
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,200
I, I really don't, you know, so,
you know, I think, I still think

464
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,560
that they believe that, you
know, there's, you know, there's

465
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,760
margin there, you know, some
growth and you know, I, you

466
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:20,520
know, I don't know what, you
know, what the growth is outside

467
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,120
of their asset base.
You know, that's I don't think,

468
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:25,680
I don't know that they're
thinking that.

469
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,760
And I think that's, you know,
when you, when you look at

470
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,200
Australia, yeah, you're kind of
looking at, OK, well, you know,

471
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,440
you know, where are the growth
opportunities?

472
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,880
And you know, there are, you
know, we have Oz Gold and a few

473
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,640
other, you know, Saturn and a
few of these development

474
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,320
projects in the portfolio.
And you know, they're, they're

475
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,920
coming along.
But those are not Anglo Gold

476
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,520
type of assets, you know,
they're, they're really not.

477
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,960
So should we jump?
Straight into to those two

478
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,120
you've just mentioned there.
Ozgo had some good news recently

479
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,440
on the on the sort of land
front.

480
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,680
How are you sort of taking in
the the the change in events

481
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,200
there and how long have you kind
of held the stock?

482
00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:16,760
We've held it for, you know,
she's over a year or so since

483
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,440
John got in there.
They did the race.

484
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,840
So yeah, that's been that's been
quite a while.

485
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,560
I think it's over a year.
I think he's been in there.

486
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,600
So yeah.
So you know, we we have it at

487
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,520
much lower levels and I and I
think that, you know, it is, it

488
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,880
is a good project.
It's it just needs some, it has

489
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,000
needed time.
It's needed John and the team to

490
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:43,920
go through that jump through the
hoops.

491
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,200
You know, they clearly, you
know, with doing the land deal

492
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,600
got, you know, one of those
hoops crossed off, you know,

493
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:56,000
last week and you know, the
stock has reacted nicely and you

494
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,680
know, probably has more to go
now.

495
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,160
You know, I I don't believe that
you know, John is in there to to

496
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,160
to build it.
I really don't.

497
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:09,600
So we'll we'll see that's.
That's, that's an interesting

498
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,080
perspective.
We'll have to keep our eyes on

499
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,440
who potential acquires could be
of that one.

500
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:19,040
And then like Saturn, we've got
big, big scale, big tons.

501
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,720
I mean scale in terms of amount
of amount of dirt, dirt to move.

502
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,680
But the production profile, you
know, around the, you know, a

503
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,520
bit north of 100,000 oz per
annum.

504
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,720
But it's still got a bit of time
before ahead of it, like FY20, 7

505
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,360
or 28 at the earliest of this
thing could be in production.

506
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:36,040
Yeah.
And.

507
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,800
You know, so you know, there
haven't been a whole lot of

508
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,800
people each at, you know,
projects down in in Australia.

509
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,720
And so I think there's probably
is a bit of lack of

510
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,720
understanding of, you know, what
they're doing.

511
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:57,000
But I, I, I think I do think
that he's doing a good job of,

512
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,960
you know, systematically, you
know, approaching that.

513
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:06,360
I mean, he's, he really is a, he
likes to do exploration.

514
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,440
And so he's, he's going at it.
Yeah.

515
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,360
But yeah, it's, it's probably,
yeah, it's, it's a couple years

516
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,640
away.
But you know, and, and it's not,

517
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,080
you know, at this point, I mean,
he's finding more oz but you

518
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,040
know, I, I don't see it, you
know, as a, you know, it's not a

519
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,880
200,000 oz a year mine it's
100,000 oz a year operation

520
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,600
looks like, and you know, so you
know, who are the buyers for

521
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,320
that?
That's that'd be in Australia

522
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,480
if, if he doesn't build it, you
know, one of the things that's

523
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:46,120
happening is, you know, that,
you know, these mining companies

524
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,920
that you know, are finding
juniors that are finding Oz.

525
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:56,400
You know, they are kind of
growing, you know, to the point

526
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,920
where you know, somebody, it
doesn't make sense for a company

527
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,080
to buy them, you know, if the
market caps go up too much.

528
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,960
And so, so then they get forced
to build them, which, you know,

529
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,560
that's not the worst thing in
the world either.

530
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,560
Do you think the heat leak risk
is overblown?

531
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,320
The pardon me, the the.
Heat leach nature of the the

532
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:18,920
project.
Do you think that risk here in

533
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,160
Australia is overblown?
I do, yeah, I do.

534
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:29,880
I, I think in certainly his,
with his experience at Newmont,

535
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,480
he's yeah, he's not afraid of
it.

536
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:39,280
And, you know, I, I don't, I
don't, I don't think that, you

537
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,200
know, from a capital standpoint,
I, I think it's a good way to

538
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:43,320
go.
I mean, we'll, we'll see.

539
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,720
I mean, they're starting to find
some, you know, some higher

540
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,760
grades, which they would need if
they went to the mill route with

541
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,680
the CIO.
But I, I don't think that, I

542
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,040
think they're still looking at
starting it off with a heap

543
00:31:55,040 --> 00:32:00,200
leach.
So and that that's yeah, in

544
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,680
Australia, like I said, there's
really isn't a lot of experience

545
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,960
with heap leash.
So I think that lack of

546
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,920
understanding, you know, has
created a bit of a, a void, you

547
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,040
know, for, you know, for
investors to, you know, embrace

548
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,040
the story more.
If I'm not mistaken, Greg,

549
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,320
you've, you've, you've got an
allocation to Ozone and they're

550
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,920
currently in a trading halt
right now on the back of news

551
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,800
that the WAFF has received a bit
of a shakedown from the Burkina

552
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,840
government.
Ozone also a Burkina gold

553
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,960
producer.
How you feeling about about

554
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,240
about this?
I am.

555
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:49,200
I'm thankful that actually ozone
did trade.

556
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:56,760
It opened up late today and went
down about, I think about 15%.

557
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:04,520
And, you know, Loft is going to
trade, you know, now on Monday.

558
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:13,920
And now they're going to be down
25% probably at this point, I'm

559
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,920
going to guess because you're
down about.

560
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:25,200
Yeah, see, with Orezone, they
have a little different mining

561
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,640
code that they were into the
2025, I guess.

562
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,600
And so the government can't come
back on them.

563
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,600
And Burkina I, I was thinking
that, you know, that, you know,

564
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:41,040
and I was, I hadn't been in
Washington for quite some time

565
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,440
and I went back in, you know,
about a month ago.

566
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,320
And, you know, it's, you know,
it's thinking, OK, I think that

567
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,120
the the government's going to be
happy with their 15%.

568
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:58,040
They just gone from 10 to 15.
And so, you know, the fact that

569
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,600
now they want to go, you know,
to 50 is a little disconcerting.

570
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:09,040
But, you know, I, I think that,
you know, WAFF is, you know,

571
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:12,080
probably going to try to
negotiate pretty hard if they

572
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,920
can, you know, I don't know, I
don't know what, you know, what

573
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,159
they have to negotiate with, you
know, But, you know, the, one of

574
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:28,440
the things that is really
disconcerting for investors is,

575
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,719
you know, when you have these
mines and some of these armpit

576
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,400
countries is that, you know,
they, they, they want to go in

577
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,159
and, and take them.
And that resource nationalism is

578
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,960
one of the big risks that, you
know, is out there, whether it's

579
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,560
South America through, you know,
you do it, you don't take over

580
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,840
the mine entirely.
You do it through taxation and

581
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,280
increase royalties.
And, you know, that's why you

582
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,800
get, you know, you know, a lot
of folks that are, you know, OK,

583
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,200
I, I can be in Australia, I can
be in North America.

584
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,760
But you know, you start going to
these, you know, other countries

585
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,560
and it gets a bit dicey.
So, you know, I think when I

586
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:16,080
look at WAFF right now, you
know, I'm not going to say what

587
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,760
I'm going to do, but you know,
it's not a, it's not a pleasant,

588
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,640
it's not a pleasant scenario.
If we just fly over quickly on

589
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,880
the jurisdictional aspect, a
couple of the other countries in

590
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,000
the area that have significant
minors, how are you thinking

591
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,920
about the likes of Guinea and
Ivory Coast and perhaps Senegal

592
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,720
or other ones that you may have
played in there previously?

593
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,440
Yeah, Guinea is been a a good
country, you know, I mean Cote

594
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,120
d'Ivoire, yeah, these Senegal,
they have been good countries so

595
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,160
far.
I mean, so, you know, I think,

596
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,160
you know, when you're sitting in
my seat, you're, you're going,

597
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,400
OK, well, we can have a, a
certain percentage in, you know,

598
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,600
each one of these countries that
as long as it doesn't blow up

599
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,320
your portfolio.
And so, so I have no problems,

600
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,800
you know, taking a, you know,
you know, being in, you know,

601
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:18,600
code of law and Senegal and
Guinea, as long as it's, you

602
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,680
know, doesn't make up, you know,
25% of the portfolio type of

603
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,240
thing, but you know, a couple
percent here and there.

604
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,440
It's OK.
There's a couple of.

605
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,280
Interesting projects in Mali as
well.

606
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,360
Are you courageous enough to go
there these days?

607
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:45,720
The only, the only real asset
that we have there is with

608
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:51,520
Barrick and Bristow is being
pretty tough with those guys

609
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,080
believing that they can't
operate the mine, which, you

610
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:57,520
know, I don't think that they
can.

611
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:02,440
But that there.
I think what you know, the Mali

612
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,880
government wants to do is they
want to try to bring in, you

613
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,320
know, one of the other miners to
to mine it.

614
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:12,040
But you know, we'll see if
allied.

615
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:17,080
They can't ask resolute.
Yeah, resolute.

616
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,720
I think I, I think it's I if it
if it's anybody, I, I would

617
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:24,680
imagine it would be allied Peter
Marone.

618
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,560
But yeah, that's, that's a
that's a possibility.

619
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:36,560
I I think that if you really
were to, you know, take that

620
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:42,960
away from them, that they would
lose that in arbitration.

621
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,680
But we'll we'll see.
I mean, you know, I, I think of,

622
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,120
you know, the the three assets
that we have there are Barrick

623
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,280
Robex, it has a small and I like
Nevada.

624
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:00,440
I mean that I like Nevada, but I
mean, I like gold, yeah.

625
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,560
So I'm, I'm curious what you've
made of the run of, of, of

626
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,520
Lundin gold.
It's, it's truly, truly

627
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,320
phenomenal.
You know, the like, I mean,

628
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,600
Freda del Norte has had
tremendous exploration success

629
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,360
and just the, the ability to
deliver that project in that

630
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,480
part of the world.
It's a $20 billion company like

631
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,760
Canadian dollars now $20 billion
for a single asset in Ecuador.

632
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:25,760
Surely they're going to buy
something soon.

633
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,200
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, the thought

634
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,760
process had been that the
Lundin's want to sell that to

635
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,080
Newmont.
You know, Newmont's in there

636
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,160
with a big piece that they got
when the New Crest deal

637
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:50,560
happened, you know, so, you
know, obviously, you know,

638
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,000
that's a big chunk of capital
that's sitting there.

639
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,040
You know, what does Newmont do?
I mean, you know, there has been

640
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,600
speculation that Newmont, you
know, would make a bid, but, you

641
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,600
know, at these prices, you know,
that's become less likely.

642
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,320
You know, I mean, this is, this
is what the market's doing is

643
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,960
running in front of, you know,
what would be, would be

644
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,520
acquirers.
And so I, I don't see that

645
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,200
Newmont makes a bid for at least
I'd be surprised if Newmont made

646
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,600
a bid for Lundin.
So, you know, where does that

647
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,960
leave Lundin?
So Lundin had made an offer to,

648
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:33,920
to buy reunion in gold.
And so, you know, and I think

649
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,920
that, you know, I wouldn't be
surprised if, you know, they

650
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,440
step up and, you know, make an
offer again.

651
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,480
But, you know, they're going to
have to get Newmont to sign off

652
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:45,840
on that.
I mean, that's one of the things

653
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:51,760
that, you know, Newmont, our new
Crest wouldn't allow the London

654
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,440
guys do to do is to to buy
anything.

655
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,720
And so, you know, they put a
kibosh on them because, yeah,

656
00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:00,560
originally they were thinking,
you know, new Crest.

657
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,720
They were going be before they
they bought the asset up in

658
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:11,080
Canada, you know, they pretium
they were going to, you know,

659
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,040
they were talking about making a
bid for Lundin.

660
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,720
And so the pretium deal came up.
So that put Lundin on the back

661
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:21,360
burner, but they still had ideas
that they were going to do the

662
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,640
Lundin deal.
And so, you know, what ended up

663
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:30,520
happening was, you know, Newmont
stepped up and took out New

664
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:35,520
Crest and, you know, now new
Newmont's in that same seat of

665
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,960
having 35% and saying, OK, well,
you know, we're just going to

666
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,120
let let this play out a little
while longer, but don't buy

667
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,960
anything.
You know, so these guys have

668
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,080
blocks on the, you know,
blocking votes on the board.

669
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,160
I guess so and.
Speaking of the takeover

670
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,520
dynamics, I, I am gold is, is
another one where you thought it

671
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,360
was like pretty, pretty
undervalued for, for a while,

672
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,400
especially given what the value
of Kotak, you know, should

673
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,200
should be.
And, and in the last couple of

674
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,480
months it's, it's really, it's
really had a, a run.

675
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,640
Do you think that's on the back
of speculative corporate action

676
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,640
as well?
I think yeah, so far Goat Day is

677
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,440
in the still in the build up
phase, Yeah.

678
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:26,000
So yeah, there's no doubt in my
mind that I am gold wants to be

679
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,680
sold.
So, you know, how that gets

680
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,320
worked out is, you know, whether
you you hive off what they have

681
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:38,000
in Burkina and other assets and,
you know, create separate

682
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,120
entities.
But, you know, I think there'll

683
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,840
be some type of transaction that
takes place there.

684
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:45,920
You know, that would not
surprise me.

685
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:52,000
But it's it's, it's coming, you
know, as soon as Cote is just

686
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:54,520
has to, you know, show itself a
little bit more.

687
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,800
Because these.
Guys, these guys are nervous

688
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:02,240
about, you know CE OS, you know
the last cycle especially you

689
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,040
know every time that they do it
did a a takeover, you know it

690
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:09,200
didn't work out.
Then they, you know get hived

691
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,040
off quite quickly.
There's a.

692
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,760
Few of those like you know,
pretty substantial assets that

693
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,160
are still, you know, proving
their straps from a ramp up

694
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,920
perspective.
Like in addition to Kotai,

695
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,680
you've got, you've got the likes
of Artemis Blackwater and

696
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,960
you've, you've got Equinoxes
Greenstone.

697
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,000
Do you like, do you think that
once you know like if, if as

698
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,560
they do or if if they do kind of
prove themselves that they

699
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,800
become kind of like logical
acquisitions at the right price

700
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:42,600
for for the majors?
Yeah, I think, I mean, there's

701
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:47,320
no doubt in my mind that Artemis
is for sale at some point.

702
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,920
I think it probably needs to,
you know, work on, you know,

703
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,640
getting its debt level down just
so it just needs to produce for

704
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:59,120
a while to do that.
And, you know, the, the, I think

705
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,480
the big guys, you know, you
know, they look at, you know,

706
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,200
mines that can do a half a
million oz and there aren't that

707
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,040
many of them.
So, yeah, it's an attractive

708
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,560
asset.
It's not necessarily that cheap

709
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:18,000
when you take the debt into
consideration, but you know, I,

710
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,480
I do believe that, you know, one
of the big guys will make an

711
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,760
effort there at some point.
Just to reflect back on the, the

712
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,160
share price movements of some of
these bigger companies like to

713
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:34,920
talk about London once more.
They've more than 10X in, in the

714
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,240
last few years.
It's, it's just incredible.

715
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,840
And I can't help but notice that
their market cap is almost

716
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,560
double that of some of the
companies that have been sort of

717
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,520
grouped as as major minors.
Like how do you think about the

718
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,440
the rationale for continuing to
to hold a company like that with

719
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:54,040
the the single asset risk in
Ecuador?

720
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:58,560
That's a, that's a good
question.

721
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:04,920
Now, you know, I, I've always
been of the belief that you run

722
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:10,040
with your winners and you know
that the companies will, you

723
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:15,120
know, continue to create value
over time.

724
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:20,080
And, you know, right now I'm,
you know, I'm still betting on

725
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:24,520
the loan Deans, you know, and
fortunately, you know, what

726
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,880
they're doing is, you know,
they're being, you know, very

727
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,560
aggressive in terms of, OK,
well, we're going to pay back

728
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,440
cash to the shareholders.
And, you know, obviously

729
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,480
Newmont's a big shareholder,
but, you know, so are the

730
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,560
Lundeens.
You know, that's what that's one

731
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,240
of the reasons why I thought
that, you know, you know, the

732
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:49,000
Lundeens wanted to cash out and,
you know, put the, you know,

733
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:54,520
that cash down into the copper
assets that they have.

734
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:59,120
But, you know, I, I still, I'm
still thinking that.

735
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,600
But at this point, you know,
they're, they're willing to let

736
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,920
the, you know, the free cash
flow, you know, come back to

737
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,040
shareholders, which, you know, I
know I'm, I'm a strong believer

738
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,240
in, you know, investors
participating in cash flow.

739
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,280
And, you know, that's just one
of the problems that, you know,

740
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,960
we've seen with the gold mining
industry is that, you know,

741
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,800
investors haven't participated
in the cash flows the way they

742
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,640
should.
And, you know, I have a very

743
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,720
simple formula in that, you
know, that this business needs

744
00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:33,760
to be basically a third, a
third, a third.

745
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,600
And, you know, the third goes
back into paying off the mine

746
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,560
and the third goes to the
shareholders and the third goes

747
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,680
to the next mine.
And if you do that, you know,

748
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:51,200
everybody participates.
So, yeah, so that's, you know,

749
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:55,200
the fact that the Lundeens are
are, are paying, paying us back.

750
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,840
You know, I'm certainly in favor
of that.

751
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,600
So Barracks.
Sell their 50% stake to their JV

752
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,160
partner, Nova Gold, who've been
in that asset for quite some

753
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,760
time and Nova Gold have a run up
that they haven't quite had in a

754
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,520
number of years, but there's
still an enormous CapEx bill

755
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,040
there.
How do you think about the Dolan

756
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,680
project?
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of

757
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:24,040
gold there and certainly Tom
Kaplan and that group has been

758
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:29,080
playing up the OK, well, the
gold in the ground is, is fine

759
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:33,120
is, you know, it's, it's a asset
and you know, we don't have to

760
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,720
mine it.
You know, I think now they're at

761
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:40,400
the point where, you know, they
get tired of all those folks out

762
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,960
and said, OK, well, we're going
to have to build this

763
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,720
eventually.
And Barrick looked at and said,

764
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:48,440
OK, well, we're not going to get
the return.

765
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:51,880
We'll, we'll sell to these guys,
let them run with it.

766
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,440
And we don't want to spend the
management time to do do that.

767
00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:01,040
So it's, you know, I, I think
it's going to take a lot of

768
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:07,520
capital, clearly.
And, you know, I, I'm, I'm not

769
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,880
willing to go there at this
point.

770
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,120
So, you know, hats off to him
really.

771
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:19,280
So, but yeah, it's a, it's not
an easy, it's not an easy

772
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:20,920
project.
You know, you got to get the

773
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,080
power up there.
You know, you're going to do it

774
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,360
with natural gas or however
you're going to do it.

775
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,080
I don't know.
But yeah, we'll see.

776
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:29,480
But there's a lot of gold up
there.

777
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,160
There's certainly a lot of gold
there.

778
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,680
One of one of the larger
positions in the portfolio Greg

779
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,640
is Catalyst Metals who who had a
tremendous run last year,

780
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,920
retreated a bit, but yeah, but
prove their straps when they

781
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,920
when they got their their hands
on Platonic.

782
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,360
I think they've got a bit more
CapEx ahead of them now and the,

783
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,720
the, the easy runs might be be
over.

784
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,520
But do you, do you still have a
pretty, pretty strong outlook

785
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,440
for, for their ability to
generate cash?

786
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:04,040
You know, so James has got some
work to do there.

787
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,960
He's got a, he's basically at
this point now he's got to prove

788
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,640
up the market cap that the
market's given them.

789
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,280
And so, yeah, he's talked about
getting to 200,000 oz.

790
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,840
He's got the Trident project,
He's got platonic yeast.

791
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,720
Yeah, they, you know, they're,
they're getting some good

792
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:27,560
results on the platonic, I mean
on that platonic belt and, you

793
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:32,480
know, with through Trident.
So, but you know, the, the

794
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,560
question is, is you know, is he
going to be like his father and

795
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:40,120
go out and buy things?
So, you know, my guess is that

796
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,160
yes, he will at some point go
here.

797
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,600
Should I Daddy, I saw what you
did, but I'm going to do it with

798
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,120
better.
And, you know, so far, I

799
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:53,160
actually think that I actually
think he might be a bit more

800
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,040
disciplined than his father was.
So maybe maybe he learned a bit

801
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,040
at the the breakfast or the
dinner table.

802
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,760
But you know, one of the things
that's interesting about

803
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,840
catalyst, I mean, they waited a
long time.

804
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,040
He could have done that raise,
you know, for, you know, I think

805
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:14,320
brokers were beaten on him for a
long time and he didn't do it

806
00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:16,600
and didn't do it, and he finally
did it.

807
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,600
So, you know, the question is,
is OK, what is he doing with

808
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,480
that money?
And is he buying something?

809
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:29,920
Or is it just there to, you
know, keep a larger, you know,

810
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:35,040
buffer?
So, yeah, I, I, I, I don't know

811
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:38,240
what the answer to that is yet,
but you know, I do have

812
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:42,800
confidence in his ability.
And, you know, a lot of times

813
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:47,400
you can sit there and you can
sell assets, you know, when

814
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:52,720
they've run and then, you know,
look to buy it back some other

815
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:56,320
time.
You know, my, you know, I have

816
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,440
historically been a pretty low
turnover fund and have been, you

817
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,320
know, if guys have been
performing, I let them perform

818
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,960
and continue to perform and I'll
ride out the, the ups and downs,

819
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,040
you know, that's, you know, the
way we've operated.

820
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,080
And so I think that, you know,
we'll, you know, at this point,

821
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,840
I'm willing to let James run
with it until he shows

822
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,120
otherwise.
And you know, once management

823
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,320
starts doing things other than
what they say, you know, then

824
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,920
it's time to leave.
I'm really curious just to hear

825
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,120
how you think about hedging in
this environment?

826
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:38,840
That's a good question.
So, you know, hedging is, you

827
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:44,600
know, basically been a hedge for
to not make money.

828
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,160
You know, for a lot of a lot of
companies, they think they're

829
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:54,360
hedging, you know, the top top
line, they can't hedge any costs

830
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,000
really.
They try to, you know, you can

831
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,160
look at, you know, energy, you
know, maybe they can hedge a

832
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,760
little bit of that.
But you know, for the most part,

833
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,600
you can't hedge your costs.
And then the costs keep going

834
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,280
up.
And then they're, you know, the,

835
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,840
you're stuck in a situation
where you know, you've, you

836
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,120
know, sold forward and, you
know, then the, your, your cost

837
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,680
profile goes up.
And you know, nobody wants to be

838
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:23,000
in a company where you know, the
gold price is going up and you

839
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,160
know, they're locked in a $2000
gold.

840
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:30,200
I mean, if you look at how many
companies have, you know,

841
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,400
really, and mostly the
Australians have been the worst,

842
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:40,520
have really, you know, died
because you know, their, you

843
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:44,200
know, their hedge book portfolio
is gone against them.

844
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:52,280
I mean, clearly, you know,
obviously Bellevue, you know,

845
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,280
Regis, you know, they had a
tough book.

846
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,280
I mean, a lot of these companies
that have had big books, you

847
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:03,480
know, go against them, you know,
they've, you know, it's, it's

848
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,160
been very detrimental.
So I, I'm not big, I'm not big

849
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,440
on hedging.
And you know, one of the things

850
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:15,120
that you look at now and say,
OK, $5000 plus gold, you know,

851
00:52:15,240 --> 00:52:18,880
if you know, that's not a bad
gold price in, in Aussie terms

852
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:23,000
at all.
And so you have to have a view

853
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:24,920
on what the Aussie currency is
going to do.

854
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,920
And so if you think that the
Aussie currency is going to get

855
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,600
much stronger, you know, the
gold price isn't going to do

856
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:36,280
anything.
And so, you know, that's one,

857
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:38,880
you know, one view that you're
going to have to take as

858
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:40,760
management.
And I, I would, I think that,

859
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:46,520
you know, companies have gotten
better at looking at hedging

860
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:50,440
more from, OK, well, we're going
to do options and you know,

861
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:56,160
we'll, we will take the, yeah,
take a little bit of money here

862
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:58,000
and hedge ourselves on the
downside.

863
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,920
And or, you know, they'll do
some 0 callers, you know.

864
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,880
But you know, for the most part,
if you look at, you know, the

865
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:11,120
successful guys that have been
in the hedging game, you know,

866
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,720
they've, they've basically have
bought puts and you know, just

867
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,120
written them off so I could, I
could have.

868
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,640
Guessed your views there you
want you want the the miners to

869
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,080
hold gold on their balance
sheet, not deliver it to to to a

870
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,680
counter party.
Yeah, right.

871
00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:31,320
I mean, I mean, one, one of the
things that is, you know, when

872
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:35,800
you look at, you know, you know,
the gold price, you know, it's

873
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:40,680
that volatility that you know,
is in the share price, you know,

874
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:42,840
so you know, moving with the
gold price.

875
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,360
Yeah, Yeah.
What's the?

876
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,200
What's the most undervalued gold
company gold producer right now

877
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,160
and then gold.
Gold developer right now, Yeah,

878
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,360
I.
I look at a lot of these

879
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:59,240
companies and say, OK, well, you
know, where, where are we going?

880
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:06,320
You know, and you know, I'd like
to think that, you know, yeah, I

881
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,720
have got this small one that
I've had for a while, Jaguar

882
00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:15,840
Mining in the portfolio that had
a tailings issue.

883
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:21,880
And so, you know, once they get
that squared away and then you

884
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:26,560
are able to expand their
operation, you know, that looks

885
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,120
cheap to me.
You know that the market's going

886
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,880
to like it.
The developers really in a

887
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,880
position to where they can
really make hay in this

888
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,640
environment if they do it
correctly and, and that that's

889
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,960
not blowing up their
shareholders along the way, you

890
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,240
know, entirely just saying, OK,
well, we need we need cash.

891
00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:48,320
So, you know, we're going to
take cash every time we can.

892
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,760
We're offered because, you know,
in a bull market, they'll be

893
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,640
offered cash, you know, you
know, every other day.

894
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,160
So you, you have to make sure
that, you know, you have

895
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:01,120
managements that are not, you
know, going to dilute you out.

896
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,520
So, you know, that's one of the
problems that you have with

897
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:09,280
developers is you know that they
will blow you out of the water,

898
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,360
you know, so you have to know
that the management teams are

899
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:17,600
there understanding the, you
know, the fact that, you know,

900
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,280
they've got to keep a, a close
eye on, you know, oz per share.

901
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:26,240
On, on that sort of theme, Greg,
I've got a a bunch of rapid fire

902
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:31,360
questions that on a fire towards
you with the first one being who

903
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:33,280
do you think is the best
management team in the industry

904
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:37,840
right now?
Best management team has been a

905
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,720
Nico.
They've been the best thought

906
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:42,520
that might.
Be the answer Do you have a

907
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,640
favorite gold mine that you've
come across in your in your

908
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:49,320
career?
Favorite gold mine?

909
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,800
Oh yeah.
I mean, my, my favorite gold

910
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,400
mines through the years have
have been the Nevada gold mines

911
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:01,920
that Barrick and Newmont had.
Those have been the, you know,

912
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:06,160
the best, you know, from I go
back to early 1980s.

913
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:10,080
So those have been some pretty
spectacular minds, yeah.

914
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:12,440
Long history there.
How about the best jurisdiction

915
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:13,600
to operate in the world right
now?

916
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,840
Yeah, I, I'm.
I'm going to still say that

917
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:22,200
you've got to be in North
America and you know, Canada and

918
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,680
Canada and Australia probably
probably Australia is you know,

919
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:31,760
is getting more unfortunately
more and more like Canada and

920
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,000
the US that is taking longer to
permit.

921
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:42,720
But you know, from its sanctity
of the tenements that's, you

922
00:56:42,720 --> 00:56:45,200
know, those are the, the
countries that you want to be

923
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:49,480
in.
And most likely deal in the next

924
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,120
12 months.
Yeah, I still.

925
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:58,240
Think Lundin disappears somehow,
but they're I bet.

926
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:03,360
I think they buy an asset.
It's probably my guess that

927
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,600
lending buys an asset first,
would you say?

928
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,560
In the Americas.
Yes, yeah.

929
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,840
In the Americas, yeah.
Interesting one.

930
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:16,080
How about the best site visit
you've been on?

931
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:20,080
Yeah.
I'd say barracks, barracks

932
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:24,000
Nevada gold mines to find the
best site business I've been on

933
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,160
from a you know, large cap
mining company.

934
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:34,520
I mean, I've been on a plenty of
of you know, go out and you

935
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:37,520
know, kick the dirt on, you
know, but you know, in terms of

936
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:42,640
seeing an operation, yeah,
that's probably you know, yeah,

937
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,400
you can see the most there last
one from.

938
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:51,360
Me is agnico more likely to buy
Oregon royalties or I am gold to

939
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,840
get their hands on Cote in some
way shape or form in the.

940
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:08,080
I think that they would be more
apt to buy Kote is probably my

941
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:09,560
guess.
You know, one of the, one of the

942
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:13,800
things that you know, they're
certainly looking at is, you

943
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:19,360
know, maintaining, you know,
their jurisdiction profile and I

944
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,400
and I think that's, you know,
one of the things that Kote

945
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:24,720
offers them.
And so you're going to, you're

946
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:30,680
going to have to split up the
split off the Burkina assets.

947
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:35,520
So, yeah, so I mean, they have
no problem.

948
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:36,760
They have a history of doing
that.

949
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,480
So I wouldn't be surprised if
they make a joint bid with

950
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:44,440
somebody or somehow they figure
it out or just, you know, create

951
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,480
a separate company.
Fantastic.

952
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,560
Greg, it's been an absolute
pleasure to to speak and get

953
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:53,040
your insights on, on, on the,
you know, the gold equities and

954
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:55,520
the gold market.
And it was also enjoyable for us

955
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,680
to talk about, you know, some of
these North American gold miners

956
00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,600
that we don't spend heaps of
time talking about.

957
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:02,720
No, you spend all the time
talking about the Aussies all

958
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:04,640
the time, but I understand that
you've, you know, most of the

959
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,320
time you guys, mostly the
Aussies down there listening so.

960
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:10,840
Yeah, we, it's just local market
bias.

961
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,000
I think, you know, time zones do
matter obviously.

962
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,600
And it's, it's kind of hard to
force yourself to, to pay

963
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:17,800
attention to the other time
zone.

964
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,440
But but we're, we're, you know,
speaking to people like you.

965
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,000
We're, we're getting there.
One step more educated now.

966
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,560
Yeah, I know.
Well, I think you know, and I, I

967
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:30,600
do think that, you know, you do
see the Aussies are, you know,

968
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:34,240
they're, they don't do a very
good job when they come to North

969
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:38,120
America, then they probably
should stay away.

970
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:45,760
But, but you know, clearly down
in Australia and you know,

971
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,320
there's a couple of guys down
playing around down in South

972
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:54,320
America, you know, you know,
certainly could get a bit.

973
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:58,360
And I think that there's there
is a market in Canada, there's a

974
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:02,880
market in Australia for resource
companies that's not there in

975
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:07,200
the US.
And so you know, that's, you

976
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,240
know, that's a real positive
for, you know, the industry

977
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,560
overall.
So totally there's.

978
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:16,440
Still that appetite here.
Yeah.

979
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:20,560
No, no, there is.
So I mean, Canaccord is, you

980
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:24,000
know, running the stuff up.
It's very true.

981
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:25,520
Thanks a bunch for joining us,
Greg.

982
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:27,160
Appreciate it.
Yeah, my.

983
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:28,400
Pleasure.
Thanks, guys.

984
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:30,480
And there we go.
Mate, a massive thank you to our

985
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:32,320
fantastic partners for making it
all happen.

986
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:37,600
Sandy Ground Support, Focus, the
platform by market tech, Axis

987
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,440
Mineral Services and last but
not least, get your tickets to

988
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,200
Africa Down Under next week.
Go to Ruth.

989
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:46,080
Now remember.
I'm an idiot.

990
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:48,800
JD is an idiot.
If you thought any of this was

991
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,320
anything other than
entertainment, you're an idiot

992
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:52,880
and you need to read out a
disclaimer.