Finding Value in a World of Excess with Vas Piperoglou

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Righto Muddy miners, we've got
bloody a repeat guest here, Vas

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Pepper Ogloo.
I think I got that right from

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Colin Collins Street asset
Management mate, the gold the

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when we talked to Vas last night
when you talked to him last

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time, JD, they were in
everything early, all these gold

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juniors.
So they're probably bearing some

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fruit now.
All those gold juniors, well, we

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call them bloody Tim Taylor soon
for ACBE Power Station when they

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mature into a producing
operation, they're bloody one

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day closer the into.
Turn those hits into into actual

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cold hard cash, mate.
Yeah, it's the.

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It's the logical next step to
take, isn't it, you?

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Need power.
You need power to to produce

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gold, mate.
Last time I checked, mate, you

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need independent power.
You need independent power.

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Independent power produced by
bloody CBE.

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Build, own, operate.
Build own operate what a what an

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innovative solution to fast get
into production and a low cap X.

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Fast IPO these falls.
Oh mate, give Timmy.

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Timmy Taylor's been getting
pulled up at the airport.

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Hi, are you Tim Taylor from CBE?
Twice in one visit I heard.

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Give CBEA call.
Right JD mate.

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Quite what a great time they'll
be.

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It would have been a bit cheery
they old vassal Dachan.

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Yeah, I mean, the IT, it was
pretty wild reflecting on the

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discussion I had with him a year
ago.

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Maddie was almost exactly a year
ago and a lot of the things we

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spoke about when I had the chat
earlier this week.

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Were.
Yeah, just how those narratives

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have played out.
So gold, energy, the macro stuff

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like inflation, fighting
deficits and and debt and all

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those sorts of things.
And I listened to the

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conversation that we did earlier
in the morning and then was

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chatting with him before and
obviously throughout the

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discussion about about all these
things.

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And it was yeah.
I mean, full credit to the guys

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at Collin Street and Vast.
It's, it's gone more or less

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kind of how they thought.
But looking forward from where

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we are today, it's, it's very
interesting to, to pick his

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brain apart and understand where
he thinks the opportunities

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still lie.
And yeah, I mean, to be clear

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on, on the gold part, they've,
they've reopened their fund,

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their Special Situations fund as
they set it up as well as a part

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of their flagship fund.
So plenty of opportunities and

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it was great to to pick the the
mind of sort of hardcore value

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investor.
All right, I without further

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ado, let's just get into it.
All right.

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That's I'm super excited to
speak with you again.

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I listened back to our
conversation almost exactly a

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year ago and it is, it's
fascinating to reflect on how

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many of the, the themes have
played out, what the, the

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broader macro environment has
done over the past year, whether

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that be inflation, excessive
valuations in, in parts of the

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markets and all these sorts of
things.

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So I thought we'd just start the
conversation by taking taking a

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bit of a temperature on the the
broader market, whether that be

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US, China as well and Australia
and what you're making of the

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the big names across markets.
So I think it's fair to say

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whilst there was a, you know, a
little bit of the downturn

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recently, I think the Dow fell
10% from peak and it's clawed

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back more than half.
You know, some of the larger

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names, let's be honest, across
multiple markets, whether it's

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Australia, the US or anywhere,
to be honest, you know, some of

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the names are still richly
valued.

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And and so, you know, as value
investors, as readers of the

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most recent history and finance,
you know, say the last 50 years,

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you know, some of these numbers
are still pretty elevated.

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And so, you know, one of my,
again, nothing against

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Commonwealth Bank, but I, I, I
usually love to use that as a

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proxy when Commonwealth PEC is
trading at, I don't know, 2524

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times earnings, which I've never
seen that anywhere in history.

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Then then it does get to show
that's, you know, the larger

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names in most markets are still
well bid.

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I guess you know, the question
may be why, but but you know,

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the reality is that they're
still pretty well bid.

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And then if you go down the
market cap space there, there's

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a huge divergent and I'm finding
that obviously on the ASX, but

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also anecdotally in in America
as well.

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So you know, you've got the
small to mids that kind of that

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are and you know when they're
out of the indices and you don't

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have these Atfs and these
passive funds buying, sometimes

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there is huge asymmetry and
that's just generalizing.

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Obviously we're, we're a pretty
active concentrated value

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investor.
So I am talking my own book.

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But you know, right now at this
point in the cycle, you, you

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know, you would be a brave man
or lady to be passive in my

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opinion, in some of the the
larger names that have done

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amazing over the last say 5 to
10 years.

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What, what is your view on, on
passive more broadly?

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I mean, I'm, I'm so excited
because there's so many

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directions we can go with this
conversation.

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But passive to what you just
said, there has been such a

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fundamental driver between of
those valuations, whether that

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be NVIDIA Commbank here and you
know, it's, it's a large portion

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of every dollar that's getting
invested these days is, is

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going.
How does that unwind in your

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mind if if it does or where does
it go in 1020 years?

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I mean that's the $1,000,000
question.

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I guess at the end of the day,
you know, passive can work both

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ways, right?
So, so, so yes, in a rising

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market and generally the markets
are rising over the long term,

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it's obviously a benefactory of
the passive flows.

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But on the on the flip side,
when you have some

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reverberations, it's normally
indiscriminate selling.

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So, so where will it head in the
future?

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I, I actually don't know, but,
but from, from our perspective,

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if you keep it simple, right,
if, if, whether you're talking

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pretty much any asset class, you
know, you stick to the margin of

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safety, you know, you've got a
valuation and then you have I

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guess a threshold of the upside
or the return you want to make

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on a specific investment.
And so, you know, the margin of

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safety is just not there in some
of the world bid names.

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You know, Australia is a little
bit unique.

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I'm not sure if we touched it on
the last time, but you know, our

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superannuation sector, you know,
our population is only 2526

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million, yet we have trillions
upon trillions in the Super

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chasing some of these names.
So, you know, I find it as a

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value investor mentally tough,
but but it's something that, you

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know, we're just not going to go
there at this stage in the

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cycle.
But on the flip side, you know,

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things can the pendulum can
swing the other way.

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And, and so, you know, perhaps
the next downturn, if there is a

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downturn, if this is the start
of a a market correction that,

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you know, generally happens
every five to 10 years, you

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know, perhaps it's these passive
Atfs or passive investors that

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will cause the opportunity in
some of the larger names.

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But right now today, right now,
it is a wall of money and it

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seems to never end.
But it is fascinating.

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And you know, in 20 years time,
we'll, we'll look back at

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history and say, oh, that was,
that was, that was obvious.

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But yeah, it's, it's one of the
conundrums I believe in modern

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day value investing.
To to invert this sort of

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question for a moment, you guys
are a boutique money manager

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here and one of almost a, a
dying breed in, in a way in

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Australia.
There's been a, a real sort of

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gutting in that way of, of the
market, whether that be moving

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to, to passive or pod shops in
in America or all sorts of

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various strategies.
Do you think the the money

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managed in Australia by groups
similar to you is a bigger value

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in 1020 years or or smaller?
It would be fair to say, I think

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look, let's be honest, it's been
pretty difficult for the value

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type investors over the last 10
years.

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I would like to think it's not
going to be much more than it is

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currently.
I mean one of the hardest parts

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about being a value investor or
successful value investor I

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should say is, is sometimes it
is a long time between drinks.

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And so you know, from our
perspective, look, we're pretty

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boutique, we're pretty niche
that we manage probably

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approximately 350 million under
management.

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We don't really have much
institutional investors.

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It's just an individual high net
worths.

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And so we don't have that.
We feel like that rod on our

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back to have, you know, month
in, month out, six monthly

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amazing positive returns is not
there.

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And so, you know, I think it
would be hard to do what we did

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with an institutional mindset.
And again, I'm just throwing it

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out there.
You know, Platinum Asset

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Management used to be known as
one of Australia's most

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successful international value
fund managers.

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They've had a pretty tough time
of late.

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And so, you know, there are a
few other large names that have

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just struggled from that
institutional type money trying

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to be value driven, you know,
because of the market and

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because of the passive flow.
So, so to answer your question,

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I don't think it's going to get
easier.

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So I don't think there'll be
much more boutique value guys

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because it is tough.
But you know, at the end of the

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day, eventually when you're
buying reasonable quality

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companies or you pick a right
thematic like gold and you ride,

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you ride the various bull
markets.

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You know, it does take time and
perseverance.

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The same thing with our uranium
formatic as well.

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Yes, we're value investors, but
we're not scared of touching

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resources.
You know, when, when we had our

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uranium formatic, it was three
years, 3 1/2 years before the

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stocks did anything.
Now, I'm not sure how many

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institutional type fund managers
are able to hold out for three

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to 3 1/2 years.
Even had some, some robust

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debate with my business partner.
You know, if we got it wrong,

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what are we doing?
The stocks haven't moved, the

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spot prices up 35%.
But you know, we, we, we held

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through.
So yeah, it's, it's not easy.

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And I suspect, you know, those
that can survive and wait it out

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for, for I guess the asymmetry
that they feel is present.

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You know the you're well
rewarded, but it is not easy.

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Yeah.
And perhaps the the opportunity

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lies in the fact that other
institutional managers can't,

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can't quite execute on it.
I'm, I'm keen to go back to

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broader market dynamics and, and
sort of ask you about

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excessiveness and sort of
bullishness.

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It was a massive theme through
21 died sort of momentarily in

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in the States and here through
2022 and it sort of came back

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and came back quite strongly in
particular parts of the market

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last year.
Where, Where do you kind of if

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you were to take the temperature
on fear and greed, or however

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you might term it, where do you
think we are?

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I think and I'm generalizing, I
think today markets and opinions

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and the temperature move a lot
quicker, OK, So very bifurcated

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and it can move in and out on on
any given week.

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And so if we hone in on specific
sectors, I think I could be

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wrong, but I think we're we're
over the peak AI from a

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valuation perspective.
Again, we never went long AI

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names.
We never went short AI names.

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But if I'm, you know, trying to
hone in on different markets, I

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think we're at peak AI it.
Didn't really strike me as your

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type of investment.
No, but but the irony about AI

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is I think it's an amazing
technology and I think, you

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know, it will be, you know,
those that can capture it will,

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will be years ahead, you know,
2345 years ahead from an

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efficiency perspective.
But actually, I, I've yet to see

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apart from NVIDIA, I don't know
anyone else that's actually

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making money.
So if you can find out, please

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tell me that's directly making
money from AI that I don't think

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the business models really have
been working out.

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So, so that's that market.
On the flip side, if you look at

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the energy space, I feel like
it's peak pessimism.

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And I, and I am talking mainly
about the, you know, the oil,

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oil and oil services sector.
You know, the fact that oil's

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gone from, you know, let's say
$90.00 a barrel to, you know,

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high 60s, everyone thinks it's,
it's, it's the end of that

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00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:06,840
sector.
And, and so valuations are

222
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,960
pretty depressed, very
depressed.

223
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,360
And then on the flip side, you
know, you've got precious metals

224
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:18,120
where you start slowly starting
to see institutional names get

225
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,400
interested in the sector.
It hasn't yet fully trickled

226
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,880
down to the small caps, but
it's, you know, you're getting a

227
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,800
whiff of green shoots and so
the, the market's very

228
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,880
bifurcated.
So, so I think the markets move

229
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,560
a lot quicker than they do
normally.

230
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,800
I think generally everyone knows
from a historical fundamental

231
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,760
perspective, America, if I look
at the American stock market, I

232
00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:48,160
think it's 40 or 50% of the
world's market cap, yet

233
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,440
America's not 50% of the world's
profits.

234
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,640
And so everyone knows it that
it's pretty rich that, you know,

235
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,880
in that part of the world.
And then on the flip side, you

236
00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,960
look at some Asian nations,
which include China.

237
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:06,120
I do remember last time we had
an interview at the time, none

238
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,840
of our funds had had the mandate
to invest in China.

239
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:10,920
But personally, I was pretty
heavy.

240
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,440
And I find it fascinating how
again, this is another example

241
00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,680
the market's opinion can change
in such a short time frame.

242
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,920
So I remember personally buying
jd.com, which is like the Amazon

243
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,640
of China.
You know, it was less than 12

244
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,320
months ago at at price to
earnings of five times.

245
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,720
And now, you know, people are
saying, oh, it's still a

246
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,240
bargain, but it's it's up, you
know, nearly 100%.

247
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,680
And yeah, sure, it's still
cheap, but you know, the market

248
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,600
does move very quickly to the
flow of funds.

249
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,280
So now that people think the
flow of funds maybe might be

250
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,840
starting back in China and Asia,
you know, there's kind of a bit

251
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,440
of a, there's been a bit of fun
flow.

252
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,880
I I feel anecdotally to the
cheaper part of the markets.

253
00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:00,680
And then on the flip side, sorry
to go on, but Europe, no one

254
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,360
wanted to know Europe and then
what probably within the last

255
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,880
four to six weeks, Europe now
because people think Germany is

256
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:15,360
actually going to start spending
is kind of potentially the next

257
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,280
growth market.
So look, it's fascinating.

258
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,080
Markets move very quick.
I think everyone tries to think

259
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,280
they're smarter than they are
and they try to front load where

260
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,440
they think the flows will be
coming or going to.

261
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,560
I should say from our
perspective, it's it's all about

262
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,160
valuations.
And so, you know, Blind Freddie

263
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,560
could have told you China was
cheap 12 months ago.

264
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,280
Europe as well.
I've been saying for a while, I

265
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,160
think Europe's, you know, yes,
that they've got a lot of

266
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:48,600
problems in the EU, but from a
valuation perspective, pretty

267
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,320
asymmetric, even though it's
done OK over the recent.

268
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,480
On the flip side, America is
pretty expensive, but then you

269
00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,240
got Australia.
You know, I'm still trying to

270
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,200
work at our market.
You know, I feel like you've got

271
00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,040
you've got the top 50 and then
you've got everyone else.

272
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,440
Huge bifurcation.
That just a factor of the the

273
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,080
Super funds you referenced
before.

274
00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,600
I think so.
I think it's a mixture of super

275
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:20,760
funds both and also our franking
credit system.

276
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,280
So generally speaking, the
larger companies are the ones

277
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,320
that that usually pay the nicer
yields and the nicer franking

278
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,880
credits.
And so, yeah, because of our

279
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,520
demographics and people chasing
yield and franking credits, you

280
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,800
know, it generally dictates, you
know, kind of the larger type

281
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:39,880
companies.
So I think between those two

282
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,920
things, yeah, I think I think
there's a huge divergent.

283
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,560
And so it doesn't mean you can't
do well again buying the top 50

284
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,160
stocks because, you know, you
would have done amazingly over

285
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,440
the last 10 years.
But you know, main reversion

286
00:16:54,440 --> 00:17:00,840
does work over a long term.
And so again, sorry to pick CBA

287
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,720
because I, I do personally bank
with CBA.

288
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,720
So I love CBA, but but you know,
I'm not sure what your IRR is

289
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:11,520
going to be over 10 years,
including dividends, you know,

290
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,200
paying 25 or 26 times earnings.
And so yeah, it's, it's a weird

291
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,880
market, very bifurcated, very
industry and stock specific on

292
00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,359
whether the market loves it or
hates it and, and also regional.

293
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,480
So it's, to be honest, all over
the shop.

294
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,680
Bass, what do you think of CRE
insurance mate?

295
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,560
Bass, Bass, you there?
Where's he?

296
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:37,240
He's off.
He's offline.

297
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,840
Bloody good question, JDI.
Let's just assume the answer is

298
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,200
friggin awesome.
I think, I think with these guys

299
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,000
with CRE insurance, it is the
logical assumption.

300
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,600
Bass is a value investor.
Talk about bloody.

301
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,680
Talk about insurance.
Broking value.

302
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,480
Like if if if he was if they
granted an insurance investing

303
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:00,520
fund I think CRE would be the
top holding.

304
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,080
Mate, Bass bass is the secret to
you know, his his way of

305
00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,840
investing is protect your
downside and expose yourself to

306
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,320
to a lot of upside.
Well, guess what mate, insurance

307
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:10,920
is literally gonna help you.
It's like.

308
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,520
A double whammy.
Took the words out of my mouth.

309
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,360
Trap.
Protect your downside.

310
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,840
Call CRE insurance.
It's the you know it it.

311
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,120
They should be in your speed
dial.

312
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:22,360
I reckon they should be.
That's if you've opened,

313
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:26,160
reopened up that Gulf fund mate,
just CRE are into all sorts of

314
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,120
hybrid things outside of the
mining and energy industry, so

315
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,000
could be worth a call.
Construction infrastructure but

316
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,800
mining inexactively fund
insurance.

317
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,600
Also, if you're starting to mine
you should also call CRE

318
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,560
insurance that that's.
Just to be clear, that's mainly

319
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:47,200
what they do right now.
Let's get back to it with that.

320
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,360
Maybe sort of focusing
specifically on Australia for a

321
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,720
moment, given that's the the
mandate I believe.

322
00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,360
The value Fund.
Yeah, the value fund, do you, do

323
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,200
you think bearing in mind the,
the strong performance we've

324
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,360
seen there's, there's sort of
more opportunities now or

325
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,120
reverses one year ago when we
spoke?

326
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:10,280
So I think again, generally I,
I, we don't see much of the

327
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,000
opportunity in the larger end of
town.

328
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:18,080
Now in the smaller end, yes, the
question is, and it's always the

329
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,440
$1,000,000 question, what's
going to be the catalyst, OK.

330
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:27,080
And so with precious metals,
obviously we've seen a, a, a

331
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,720
reasonable uplift in, in the
gold price.

332
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,600
And so usually stocks in
specific resource sectors, a

333
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,520
levered play on the underlying
commodity.

334
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:41,680
So yes, gold's up whatever 40%
in a couple of years, yet some

335
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,680
of these better run, you know,
pre production plays, you know,

336
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,760
are only up 20% or 30%.
So so you could argue the

337
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,920
asymmetry has gotten larger,
even though they've done OK, the

338
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,920
asymmetry has gotten larger on
some of that.

339
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,640
And so I still think there's
huge opportunity in the small to

340
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,440
mid in the precious metal space.
On the flip side, we own a few

341
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,480
industrial companies.
I mean happy to mention names if

342
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,960
you want to, but but but you
know some of these names have

343
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,840
had three, I think one of them
had has had for profit upgrades.

344
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:19,040
In the last 18 months, yet the
shares, because there's not

345
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,880
really much institutional
ownership and brokers don't

346
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,760
really follow it.
The shares are lower than they

347
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,760
are now than they were 12 to 18
months ago.

348
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,200
So I think the company's trading
at 55 and 1/2 times earnings

349
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:33,960
number one in Australia for its
sector.

350
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,440
Yes, it's a small cap, but after
three or four profit upgrades,

351
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,680
you know, so there is
opportunity if you are willing

352
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:47,400
to to look under rocks.
Obviously the only downside even

353
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,840
if you get it right on a on a
small cap, the downside is

354
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,520
obviously the liquidity.
It it is harder to buy a

355
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,200
meaningful position on the way
in and obviously it's harder to

356
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,440
get out.
But but I do believe if you're

357
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,520
willing to play in the slightly
less liquid space, there is a

358
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:09,200
lot of opportunity.
I know you and Michael are sort

359
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,840
of big fans of of manga and
Buffett.

360
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,480
Are you, are you guided by
their, the, the thinking that in

361
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,920
the long term the the stock will
follow the earnings?

362
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,000
Does that kind of ring in the
back of your mind?

363
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:23,800
Yes.
And historically, obviously

364
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,000
collar St's been around for
close to 10 years and

365
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,280
historically that has usually
been the precedent.

366
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,760
You know, stocks usually follow
earnings.

367
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,600
I will say though, this is the
first time I've witnessed for

368
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,280
such a long hiatus.
Like for example, I've never, I

369
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:43,800
think I bought my first share
when I was 12.

370
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,240
It was CSR, had the sugar and
the building division.

371
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:51,600
Go figure.
But you know, I've never seen a

372
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,400
company have 4 upgrades and the
shares be lower than they were

373
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,040
before the start of the upgrade
cycle.

374
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,560
So, so this is pretty extreme.
It's pretty unique.

375
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,680
I don't know what the catalyst
will be specifically to change

376
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,080
the market's perception of some
of the smaller industrial

377
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,080
companies, but the pendulum will
swing eventually.

378
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,000
But it is pretty extreme.
And so again, if you're willing

379
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,240
to play in that smaller end of
town, there is huge opportunity.

380
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,000
On the flip side, I think a lot
of the easy money has been made

381
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,280
on on the large, larger end
being passive.

382
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,320
Obviously there are always
outliers.

383
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,360
And so yeah, it's, it's this
weird market and, and I, you

384
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:37,360
know, obviously we, we read, was
it the other week that

385
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:40,000
Buffett's, you know, further
increased his cash position?

386
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,760
Again, I am talking my own book,
but I'd like to think if Buffett

387
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,280
was an Australian, an Australian
investor and he only had a

388
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,280
couple of 100 million instead of
billions, I have no doubt he

389
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,960
will probably be playing on the
on the smaller end of town where

390
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,480
there's huge value.
And I think originally when he

391
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,600
started his investment
partnerships, he was buying, you

392
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,960
know, small caps that were
trading at 345 times earnings,

393
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,560
having net cash, good
management.

394
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,360
And so, yeah, right now that's
where I believe, if we're

395
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,800
talking Australian specific,
where the opportunity lies.

396
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,160
Driving a return when you've got
$350 billion can be a whole a

397
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:21,920
whole different sort of
challenge that I'm not quite

398
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:23,320
familiar with.
Yeah.

399
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,960
But before we dive in, I want to
tease out the the company's

400
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,840
specifics a bit longer to get
your thoughts on interest rates.

401
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:35,520
Obviously a fundamental driver
and there's always, you know, a

402
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,160
couple different views in the
markets now.

403
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,320
There's no sort of different.
I think you said last time we

404
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,640
spoke that you're in the camp
that interest rates would

405
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,160
maintain a sort of higher
average than the the previous

406
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,360
sort of 1020 years.
Are you still in that camp?

407
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,840
I am, yeah.
So I think structurally I think

408
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,720
we are in a high for longer camp
now.

409
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,400
It doesn't mean rates weren't
reduced.

410
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,760
I mean, we already had our first
interest rate reduction.

411
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:09,360
But you know, I think naturally
if you believe, if you believe

412
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:11,760
inflation, I get it.
It's all kind of linked to

413
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,120
inflation.
If you think inflation will be

414
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:17,400
structurally higher for longer
and we ain't going back to the

415
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:23,040
0% world, then then you have to
assume that the inverse will be

416
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,240
to keep that in check, that the
interest rates do need to be

417
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,080
higher for longer.
And, and so, you know, we, we've

418
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,000
got to separate Australia from
the, the rest of the world.

419
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,600
I mean, globally, if you think
about it, there's a lot of debt

420
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,440
out there, right?
And at the end of the day that

421
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,280
needs to attract capital and,
you know, there is a bit of a

422
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,920
flight.
And so you could argue that

423
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,800
again, just like commodity
cycles, just like stock market

424
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,120
cycles, you know, there are
interest rate or bond cycles.

425
00:24:54,120 --> 00:25:00,480
And, and I just, I can't fathom
a world where rates go back to,

426
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,800
you know, 0 or 1% or 2%.
I think, I think that will be

427
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,680
higher for longer.
But we got to, you got to define

428
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,600
what does that mean?
It means higher for longer than

429
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,480
the last 10 years.
But if you look over the last 50

430
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,960
years, right, it's still
probably less than the average.

431
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:26,000
I, I remember maybe 10-15 years
ago before rates, you know,

432
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:31,160
basically got to 0, you know,
the average Australian interest

433
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,280
rate over the last 20-30 years,
like 7% was kind of the right

434
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,840
figure.
Obviously, I'm not talking about

435
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,840
the early 90s where they were
double digits.

436
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,400
And so, you know, if, if, if
interest rates are 4%, again,

437
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,000
historically over a long period,
it's not that high.

438
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,920
But yeah, sure, it's, it's
certainly higher than the last

439
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,680
10 years.
And so I think I think

440
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,240
consumers, investors need to get
used to it.

441
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,960
And selfishly, it's actually a
good thing because it means

442
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:04,640
people actually need to look at
valuations and and really look

443
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,120
at cash flows and and look at
your Irrs.

444
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,160
And it kind of a little bit of a
level playing field.

445
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,200
As much as I am bagging the
current disconnect in the market

446
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:20,120
and how expensive it is, it it
there is opportunity now as

447
00:26:20,120 --> 00:26:23,720
opposed to when rates were zero,
it was it was pretty difficult.

448
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:30,000
Fundamentals actually matter.
Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't hold my

449
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,640
breath.
But no, it does seem very much

450
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,520
like we're we're heading more to
that world and the, the

451
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,640
opportunity set is, is much more
interesting.

452
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,200
Some of the the bigger headlines
we've seen lately, maybe not

453
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:42,440
quite tariffs.
I don't think we need to go

454
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,640
there because everyone else has
kind of spoken about it at

455
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,400
nauseam.
But I am interested to to hear

456
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,760
your thoughts on the US deficit
and how that relates to debt.

457
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,880
And then I think we can sort of
make our way into to gold

458
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,840
because I think that with the
the phrasing of the Russian

459
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,040
assets are obviously the key
catalysts.

460
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,200
Sure.
So, so I think everyone agrees,

461
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,880
doesn't matter which side of
politics you are, that that

462
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,520
America's trajectory is
unsustainable.

463
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:17,920
You can't have a deficit of 6 or
7% of JDP during a non

464
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,720
recessionary environment.
Like it's pretty crazy.

465
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,600
Like like, Can you imagine any
other country in the world

466
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,120
having those numbers?
You know, you would, you would

467
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:28,160
point your finger and say that's
the next Zimbabwe.

468
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,680
So, so everyone knows it's
unsustainable.

469
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,280
The question is what are they
doing about it and, and, and how

470
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:39,360
effective will they be?
So, so I think conceptually on a

471
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:43,360
term basis, on a high level, and
this is my opinion, just as a

472
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,600
bit of an economist, I think
what they're trying to do, and

473
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,240
when I say they, I'm saying
Trump and his lieutenants, I

474
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,440
think what they're trying to do
structurally is the right thing

475
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,520
in so much as reduce
expenditure, try to reduce the

476
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:03,400
deficit, try to try to bring
back some manufacturing and not

477
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:08,400
be so reliant on other nations.
I think the issue they're going

478
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,360
to be facing is.
There's never.

479
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:13,800
Such thing as a free lunch,
right?

480
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,680
So if you're going to achieve
some structural reform over the

481
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,360
medium to long term, that there
has to be some short term pain.

482
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:26,480
And so I feel like the issue
they're going to face is some of

483
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,160
the the impediments and the
lobbying over the short term

484
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,920
because it is in conflict with
Wall Street.

485
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,000
And so I have noticed a lot of
companies and I can give you 2

486
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,320
examples, Nike and FedEx.
So they came out and reported

487
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,720
reasonable quarterly results.
But when it came to their

488
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:51,440
commentary on the current month
or current quarter, they painted

489
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,320
a pretty dire picture.
So from what I've gathered in

490
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,600
March, the consumer in March,
and again, we haven't finished

491
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,840
March in, in the US is basically
frozen.

492
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,560
And I think it's just because of
the uncertainty.

493
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,040
So, so at the end of the day,
what they're trying to do I

494
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,280
think is the right thing.
But the issue is I don't know if

495
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,560
it could be done over four
years, which is what is it five

496
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,240
years, the presidential term 4.
So, you know, I don't think it

497
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,240
can be done over four years.
You know, something like this,

498
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,440
you need a decade.
And then on the flip side, can

499
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,000
they wear the short term pay by
Wall Street, by the companies,

500
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,240
by the CEOs?
So that's a bit of A to be

501
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,640
determined.
On the flip side, you have to

502
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:42,080
understand that.
If America.

503
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,280
If over the last 40-50 years, if
one of America's largest

504
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,040
exports.
Not many people talk.

505
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:50,760
About it.
But I mean, you, you know, you

506
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,680
read about it and you're aware
of it has been the US

507
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,880
Treasuries.
And so if the US dollar has been

508
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,080
the world's reserve currency and
it still is, but if it's losing

509
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,920
its market share, right?
And then both friends and foes

510
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,920
of of, you know, trading
partners to the US think, OK,

511
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,760
well, now what are we going to
do with our U.S. dollars?

512
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,920
Are we going to recycle it back
into Treasuries and US assets or

513
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,360
are we going to maybe reduce
slightly how many treasuries or

514
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,360
US denominated assets, which may
include US shares?

515
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,800
By the way, I don't know why
people don't talk about it's not

516
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,480
just treasuries that foreigners
own to recycle U.S. dollars.

517
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,480
I think another beneficiary has
actually been Wall Street and

518
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,000
the NASDAQ.
And so, you know, there's a lot

519
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,920
of foreign capital in the stock
market as well and, and if they

520
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,000
want to reduce.
Some of their holdings.

521
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:51,200
In both treasuries or or US
denominated assets then one of

522
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,360
the beneficiaries, I'm not
saying the only beneficiary is

523
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,280
gold.
And I think with we're seeing

524
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,760
that.
I think it started as you said

525
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,200
it started when US and Europe
froze Russian assets.

526
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,000
It continued.
It even continued, let's be

527
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,320
honest, when rates went from
zero to whatever 5%.

528
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,280
You know, historically that
would have been the very bearish

529
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,600
precious metals.
The fact that gold didn't

530
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,000
collapse just shows you the
physical real demand out there.

531
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,480
And yeah, sure, we didn't pick
that Trump would be in office

532
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,480
and start all these trade wars.
But again, he's just continuing

533
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,840
something that, to be honest,
was started with Biden.

534
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,960
And so clearly there is a
bifurcated world.

535
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,120
Clearly there is geopolitics
between the cyanosphere and the

536
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,920
US sphere.
And so naturally, again, I don't

537
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,000
know what the outcome's going to
be of, of the US efforts to

538
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,840
reduce the deficits.
I mean, we're talking about, you

539
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,760
got to remember, we're not
talking about America going from

540
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,400
a deficit to a surplus.
We're talking about America

541
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,440
reducing the deficits.
And so it's still not that good.

542
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,960
But I guess if they can succeed
in reducing the deficits, it's

543
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,960
not as bad as the status quo.
And so, you know, I think

544
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,760
naturally, I think precious
metals have a big part in, in

545
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,440
diversifying away from USD
assets.

546
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,960
And then on the flip side, as a
value investor, you know, at the

547
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,280
end of the day, you, you can
still have a market that you

548
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,280
know is growing, but if their
asset prices are crazy, like all

549
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,840
the AI crap, you know, you're
not going to make much money.

550
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,120
On the flip side, precious
metals now, whether they're

551
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,360
producers, developers or
explorers, they're still pretty

552
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,720
cheap.
And so you kind of got both

553
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,120
tailwinds.
You've got the geopolitical

554
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,880
tailwinds, you've got the
commodities going up and you've

555
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,400
got the asset prices still
cheap.

556
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,920
It's kind of almost too good to
be true.

557
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,120
Yeah, there's a lot of.
Privileges with having the the

558
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,800
world's global reserve currency.
It's a very fine balance.

559
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,320
They need to to trade over the
next few years, correct.

560
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,880
It's it's.
A bit of a conundrum, right?

561
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,480
Because right now they still
need foreign capital, they still

562
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,640
need to be somewhat attractive.
But on the flip side, they're

563
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,080
kind of saying, well, you can't
rely on us and, you know, don't

564
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,640
expect all these privileges.
So it is a fine balance.

565
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,440
It's certainly a change that the
world hasn't seen in a long

566
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,720
time, probably since World War
2.

567
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:33,480
And I think the market hasn't
fully grasped the. 2nd and. 3rd

568
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,320
tier effects, I mean, it's, it's
obvious what the first tier

569
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,800
effects is, but I, I don't think
the markets fully grasp the 2nd

570
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:46,440
and 3rd tier effects.
And you know, you would be silly

571
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:51,240
to not think about how that may
play in some of your asset

572
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,800
allocation decisions.
So the gold setup is.

573
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,320
Just fascinating.
It's almost endlessly

574
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,520
fascinating right now for for a
variety of reasons.

575
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,440
So you guys set up to sort of
explain to the listeners that

576
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,880
aren't aware the Special
Situations fund 2:00-ish years

577
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,440
ago.
Yeah, it was just over.

578
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,480
Two years ago and.
That encompassed explorers,

579
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,440
developers, producers.
You had a mandate to go

580
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,679
international as well as I
understand it purely for this

581
00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:20,199
opportunity.
And like you said, this is

582
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:22,920
before the the gold price ran up
40%.

583
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,960
I'm curious just to quickly get
your thoughts on the other funds

584
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,040
entering this space.
We've sort of seen in in recent

585
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,440
times a number of, you know, in
your case reopened, but other

586
00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:34,800
generalists opening gold
specific funds.

587
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,520
And there was a comment you made
when we spoke a year ago that

588
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,920
really sort of stood in my mind
that when things get popular, we

589
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,760
tend to run away.
How do you marry up those those

590
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,600
two data points?
Yeah, generally, I say.

591
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,480
When the money men come, we
we're out.

592
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,440
So yeah.
So you're you're referring to

593
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,440
obviously other funds?
Like L1?

594
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:03,680
Capital, I think the Smorgan
group and ourselves obviously

595
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,280
reopening just for this month.
It's just a one off reopening.

596
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,440
We're not keeping it open
forever.

597
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,680
Look.
Yeah, so my.

598
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,120
Contrarian streak in me.
You know, there's a bit of a red

599
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:17,880
alert.
Well, Oh my God, if people are

600
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,960
opening funds, does that mean
it's it's the end of the

601
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,360
opportunity?
I don't think so.

602
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:29,840
And, and, and so if I look at a
lot of our positions and even

603
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,280
positions we don't own, they
still yet haven't really

604
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:39,960
trickled down to the small end.
And so you know, you just Google

605
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,920
Collin Street Asset Management
and gold and you'll, you know,

606
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,520
you'll see the dozen or so small
cap stocks, gold, gold stocks

607
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,000
where we are substantial
shareholders.

608
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,480
So it's in the public domain,
but we're kind of the only

609
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,360
institution.
Now I'll get worried when I say

610
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,160
Paradise substantial in all
these names and, and you know,

611
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,800
L1 and all these other, you
know, I guess fund managers.

612
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,040
But you know, for the time
being, those fund managers you

613
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,160
mentioned are really at the
larger end of town.

614
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,640
So it hasn't really trickled
down yet.

615
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,520
And on the surface, obviously we
are fund managers, but we do

616
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,440
speak to our clients and we have
I think we have over 1000 high

617
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,120
net worth clients and you know,
they're not really, I don't

618
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,040
believe all there yet in the
sector.

619
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,880
So, so I think, you know, if I
had to think of where we are in,

620
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,800
in, in, in the cycle.
I think we're.

621
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,760
Probably halfway through this
bull market.

622
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,600
Do you have a timeline?
On because I know it's a special

623
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,960
situation, this one and you've
previously had a timeline yeah

624
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,000
how do you think about that
Yeah, so the.

625
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,600
Funds the mandate was 3 + 1, so
effectively 4 years.

626
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,680
We're just over two years and so
I'm not saying I think we're

627
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,480
halfway just because we're
halfway in our fund.

628
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,560
There is a bit of a method to my
madness.

629
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:07,200
And so and so I kind of reverse
engineer the historical bull

630
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:12,440
markets and and the the last
three gold bull markets.

631
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,840
Then again, I'm just rounding
numbers from the gold price

632
00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:22,120
through to peak.
The average, sorry, the lowest

633
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:27,320
return was 5X.
So I believe from through to

634
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,840
peak over the last three gold
bull markets, which spanned over

635
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,000
the last 50 years, the average
gold price increase from through

636
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:41,080
to peak was five times.
Now in this cycle, the low was

637
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,040
about 1000 an ounce, OK.
And.

638
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:49,160
So five times is 5000 US.
Now, again, that was the lowest

639
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,400
of the last three.
The last three didn't have the

640
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,160
geopolitics that we're
witnessing now.

641
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:57,840
The last three didn't have
global trade wars.

642
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,840
The last three didn't have US as
the superpower that is slowly

643
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,760
losing its dominance.
And so you could argue this

644
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,480
should be the greater of the
three.

645
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,880
I'm just being conservative.
I'm picking the lowest.

646
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:15,360
And so, you know, if gold is
3000 and I think we're halfway,

647
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,400
we'll probably a bit more than
halfway there.

648
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,640
And so we, we will inverse the
problem if if gold hits above

649
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:28,720
say 5 to 6000 US, we'll probably
very imminently decide to start

650
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:30,120
liquidating and closing the
funds.

651
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,240
Or on the flip side, if some of
the stocks the DCFS.

652
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:36,440
So this is kind of what we did
with uranium.

653
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,600
If the DCFS on some of the, the,
the listed companies we own, you

654
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,080
know who, whose mines aren't
built on the smaller end.

655
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,360
If the DCFS predicts and they go
through the roof and the stocks

656
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,760
are trading at massive premiums
to the, you know, the NPV's of

657
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,360
the mines, then we'll probably
start to reduce.

658
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,560
And so, you know, at the end of
the day, it's two years into the

659
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,240
funds.
I think we're, we're up slightly

660
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:07,160
over 50%.
It's OK, but that it should be

661
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,520
up a lot more if you believe the
equities are a leverage play on

662
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,240
the commodity.
And commodity prices.

663
00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:16,600
Aside and the valuations you
just mentioned, what are the

664
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,760
other kind of signs you you look
out for for the top 2IN?

665
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,440
So historically silver.
So I've got a little note that I

666
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,040
read every month.
Silver historically usually goes

667
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,920
crazy towards the end of the
bull market.

668
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:35,080
The poorer.
Cousin.

669
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,680
And so that's that's another
sign I'll be looking at.

670
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,280
Obviously, as you said earlier,
you know, when you start to see

671
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:45,600
substantial shareholders in
multiple fund managers and even

672
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:48,960
in the small end of town or you
start reading about it in

673
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,600
newspapers every day, or it or I
don't know, it makes the front

674
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,440
cover of Time magazine, You
know, maybe I'll get a bit

675
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:59,280
nervous, but it, you know, we're
not there yet, obviously there

676
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,640
will be a time.
I think.

677
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,440
From our perspective, we're
usually early in and we're

678
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,480
usually early out.
So just because Collin Street's

679
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,000
selling at some stage in the
future doesn't mean it's the

680
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,080
end.
It's just it's kind of how we

681
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,360
how we roll.
I remember uranium, we made I

682
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,600
think 4 1/2, a bit over four
times our money.

683
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,960
And then we left 100% on the
table.

684
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,040
But then I looked at some of the
stocks now and it's pretty much

685
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,320
where we sold.
I think a lot of the uranium

686
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:30,840
names have fallen, have hold
that massively.

687
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:31,840
Yeah.
Massively and.

688
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,200
And so we just try to use simple
maths, you know, we use DCFSMPVS

689
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,240
and you know, when the stocks
are trading at premiums to an

690
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:45,000
unbuilt mine based on an MPV of
the, you know, the feasibility

691
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,800
studies and a mine hasn't been
built.

692
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,840
So you're not even taking into
consideration dilution, equity

693
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,640
risk, funding.
You know, usually, usually it,

694
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,960
it makes sense to to take some
profits.

695
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:01,200
So yeah, I could be wrong and
obviously past performance is,

696
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,240
is is not a reliable indicator,
but I'd like to think we're, you

697
00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:08,960
know, we've still got quite a
bit to go in this thematic.

698
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,360
How about M&A?
So I think in the last six

699
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,560
months alone, Equinox, Remelius,
Northern Star, Goldfields

700
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,000
yesterday had a stab.
That's all sort of par for.

701
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,720
The course it is, it is.
So, so to understand why, I

702
00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:28,080
mean, conceptually so, so you
know, one of the reasons what

703
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,880
got us interested in the
thematic in the first instance

704
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,120
was the decade or so of under
exploration.

705
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,960
And so you know, that's from a
supply side perspective.

706
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,280
And so at the end of the day,
there has been an under

707
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:46,480
exploration for over a decade in
in drilling and replacing

708
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:52,440
answers in the ground.
And so I think because equity

709
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,280
prices, and this is my opinion,
but because equity prices are

710
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,080
still pretty cheap and
reasonable, it is.

711
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,920
Cheaper and more.
Effective for a a large pier,

712
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,640
instead of wasting time and
money drilling is to make a

713
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,160
play, an M and a play.
And so, yeah, I think we'll

714
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:15,920
continue to see this, obviously.
You know, most of it's.

715
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,880
Script based, sometimes it is
cash, but most of it is script

716
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,600
based.
And so yeah, I think, I think it

717
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,560
will continue while the prices
remain still pretty reasonable

718
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:31,400
as in the equity prices.
And and so yeah, it's, it's,

719
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:36,560
it's definitely a healthy sign
that M&A is, is ramping up.

720
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,760
You're you're coming on.
Supply there is really

721
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:43,000
interesting because gold, I
haven't traditionally thought of

722
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,160
supply and demand being more a
financial asset.

723
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,480
Do you, do you think of it that
way or do you think more of

724
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,360
companies maintaining their
production profile and just

725
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,560
topping up so they don't have
the sort of supply to fill that

726
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,280
gap?
Yeah, so, so when?

727
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:57,720
When?
I say, you know, under

728
00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:01,320
exploration, it really is to
replace what they're producing.

729
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,960
It's, it's, it's nothing more
complicated.

730
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,840
It's not kind of on a high level
the, the world's, you know,

731
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:11,200
demand and supply factor.
It's, it's literally looking at,

732
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,920
I mean, I remember 20 years ago
when I was looking at gold

733
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,480
stocks as a novice, not knowing
what I'm doing, like, you know,

734
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,360
you'd look at some of these
miner reserves and they'll be

735
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:26,480
like 1020 years and now they're
like 2368 thinking Wolf, fuck,

736
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,400
what have they been doing?
They just haven't literally been

737
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:30,920
replacing what they've been
producing.

738
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,600
And you could say why?
Because effectively up until

739
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:40,360
now, they haven't had, you know,
the markets haven't given them

740
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:46,160
much fundamental value for, for
extending reserves.

741
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:50,440
Like maybe the markets were more
interested in loss making IT

742
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,760
companies and, and, and it's,
it's, you know, it's similar to

743
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,680
the oil and gas base, right?
It's like, you know, why why are

744
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,040
American shale producers, for
example, you know, concentrating

745
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:05,360
more on paying out dividends and
buybacks as opposed to extending

746
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,400
the reserves on their assets,
which they play very quickly.

747
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,560
It's because the market doesn't
give them the benefit and, and

748
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,960
apply it an applicable multiple
to growing their asset base.

749
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,840
And so gold's kind of been in
that obviously it's starting to

750
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,560
change now, but because they
weren't getting the benefit of,

751
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:29,240
you know, replacing extending
asset lives, they just haven't.

752
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:34,000
And so, yeah, it's it's
literally replacing answers in

753
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,040
the ground on gold they've
produced.

754
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,320
Incentives just driving.
Outcomes again, yeah, some of

755
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,760
the specific names I noticed
you're you're holding or held at

756
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,440
least at 31 December I think
were in Australia.

757
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,240
Black Cat and Catalyst, are they
ones you're still sort of

758
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:51,400
holding?
I haven't touched on Catalyst

759
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:52,240
just before.
Yeah.

760
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:55,400
So we, we.
Do still own quite a bit of

761
00:44:55,400 --> 00:45:00,120
Catalysts Black.
I mean, the the ones that have

762
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,720
done amazingly, obviously the
ones I'm happy to talk about

763
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,280
naturally the the three ones
that have done very well and

764
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,480
we've ridden them pretty well
and we're still, you know,

765
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:16,960
reasonable shareholders is yeah,
Catalysts, Black Cat and Maker,

766
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,600
no coincidence.
All of them are either in

767
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,760
production or about to be in
production.

768
00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:30,280
And so the market obviously is
getting excited about seeing,

769
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,880
you know, cash flows.
It hasn't yet trickled down

770
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:39,600
really to the explorers.
And so, yeah, so they're kind of

771
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,360
the larger small names, if you
want to call it that, the the

772
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,440
largest small caps that we we
own and have still done well.

773
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,840
And then if we trickle down
again, we've still done OK.

774
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,120
But they, you know, they haven't
gone up as much as some of those

775
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,960
other names.
Bright Star, we own a bit of

776
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:01,040
Bright Star.
It's well run and it is a bit of

777
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,720
an M and a play in the sandstone
region.

778
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:09,440
Bart and gold.
We are substantial in in Bart

779
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:14,880
and gold.
We own Araman AUN, just a

780
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:21,840
another sandstone play.
And you know, some of the

781
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,240
international names are usually
a little bit larger.

782
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:32,320
So Aris, Aris mining ARARIS is
the code Equinox.

783
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,560
We do have a silver play
discovery silver.

784
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:41,880
I think they recently signed to
acquire a project Canadian

785
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,800
silver project.
They also have a Canadian,

786
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,320
sorry, a Mexican project, not
sure how that's going to go with

787
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,640
the tariffs.
And so yeah, we we're, we're we

788
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,280
haven't really turned our
portfolio over a lot.

789
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:01,400
I mean, we set up to find the
better quality small to mids.

790
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,440
On the small end, we tried to
really reduce the risk by honing

791
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,400
in on management that have
hopefully been there and done it

792
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,960
before.
So they've been through a

793
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,560
previous gold cycle.
They know how to bring mines

794
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,160
into production.
And so most of our pre

795
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:22,200
production plays, we actually
generally feel they will get

796
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:27,280
into production in this cycle.
And so, yeah, we, we again, we

797
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:29,640
haven't really turned over the
portfolio much.

798
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:32,280
Obviously we've been adding
along the way.

799
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,840
But yeah, it's, I mean, from
from the A6 perspective, you

800
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:43,920
know, there's probably 14 or 15
names on our list out of the

801
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:46,600
whole gambit and yet.
You referenced a few North

802
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,320
American names there.
Huge trend for those guys to

803
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,720
come and list here.
Not just in the gold's face,

804
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,200
copper and the like as well.
If you look at them sort of on

805
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,560
on the balance right now, do you
see more value in North America

806
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,880
still?
I know that was a a big

807
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,720
narrative a year ago, two years
ago.

808
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:09,200
How's that sort of playing now?
I think.

809
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,960
The mid, the mid caps in North
America have actually caught a

810
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,080
bid.
So they're not as, they're not

811
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,800
that asymmetric as they were 12
to 24 months ago.

812
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,440
On the smaller end, I think the
answer's yes, but there's a,

813
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,720
there's a caveat.
If you are going down the

814
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:33,920
smaller cap space, you know,
you've got to be very careful

815
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,480
about management, very careful
about, you know, the status of

816
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,640
the project, the, the local
jurisdiction, the permitting,

817
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:46,320
obviously.
And so because we're not on the

818
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,360
ground in North America, we've
tried to avoid the real small

819
00:48:49,720 --> 00:48:54,280
caps, but I can see a lot of
them haven't really moved or

820
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,840
haven't done that much.
And so naturally, I think that

821
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,120
there probably is asymmetry in
the smaller end of North

822
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,560
America.
On on energy.

823
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:10,280
Now energy is fascinating.
Obviously it's it's integral to

824
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,560
our lives.
And as we spoke about last time,

825
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,400
the dynamics with ESG and
everything shifting that's I

826
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,040
think that's sort of can trend.
The trend has continued in the

827
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,680
in the manner it was going when
we spoke last year.

828
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:27,840
But here in, in Victoria,
there's pretty imminent kind of

829
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,760
concerns about energy prices and
that runs up the sort of Eastern

830
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,160
seaboard here.
And you know that the one name

831
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,880
you hold that sort of plays in
with this is is beach.

832
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,760
You've also got AWA play we can
talk about in a second.

833
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,280
To start with other kind of.
Like policy, we don't have to be

834
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,920
political, but it ties in
directly with the the narrative

835
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,280
of why you hold the the company.
I'm quite sure what What do you

836
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,720
make of the situation here in
Australia?

837
00:49:54,520 --> 00:50:00,240
Fascinating.
I think, I think a very short

838
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:08,200
sighted and at the end of the
day, you know, if, if I think

839
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:13,360
what we're witnessing is finally
some common sense in so much as

840
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,160
everyone, at the end of the day,
if you live in a democratic

841
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:22,080
Western country, you want to
have affordable living and

842
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,280
energy is part of living, right.
And so if you can't even do that

843
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:31,120
basic having affordable energy
for day-to-day living, then then

844
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:37,160
you are at a disadvantage.
And so, you know, I do feel, I

845
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:42,080
do feel the narratives changing
a bit because it's hitting.

846
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:46,920
People and businesses.
Hit pocket and obviously people

847
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,760
vote.
And so yeah, I think the

848
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,800
narrative's changing.
I do think we need to move

849
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,240
quicker.
And so without getting into the

850
00:50:57,240 --> 00:51:06,040
politics, you know, I think.
I think we need to move.

851
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:10,480
Quicker and, and, and but I'm
I'm I'm getting the feeling that

852
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:15,440
they understand the politicians
understand that if they don't do

853
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,280
something to fix it, it's going
to cost them votes.

854
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,600
And so, you know, the end of the
day, I think gas, if we're

855
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:27,640
talking about gas specifically,
clearly that is a energy source

856
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,560
that is less.
You know it's still a.

857
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,920
Pollutant, but it's it's
obviously less than other means.

858
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:39,560
And so, you know, if you don't,
if you want to ban coal, right,

859
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,560
you know, you do need other
alternate base load sources.

860
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,880
And I think gas is clearly one
of them.

861
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,840
I think I think it's very short
sighted that this country, to be

862
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,320
honest, hasn't really had the
proper debate.

863
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,520
Like I know Dutton said he's for
nuclear, but you know, I think,

864
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,880
I mean, I hope he means it.
I don't, I don't, I don't fully

865
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,440
have confidence that he does.
He's just saying it to be

866
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,160
different.
But but you know, there hasn't

867
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,520
been a proper debate on the long
term benefits of nuclear power

868
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,080
in this country.
You know, we dig up the dirt and

869
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:20,480
we just ship it overseas.
Obviously it gets enriched

870
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,040
overseas.
You know, why can't Australia

871
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:31,280
have nuclear as a small part of
its energy mix and especially,

872
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,600
you know, in 10 or 20 years if,
if these small, small modular

873
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,680
reactors come in?
I mean, to me it makes sense.

874
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:42,960
So yeah, I think, I think the
politicians are, they're aware

875
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,240
of it now.
They know it's going to be a big

876
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:47,800
issue for them.
The question is, are they going

877
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,120
to move quick enough to actually
make a difference, whereas

878
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,240
previously they weren't really
aware of it.

879
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,480
So yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a,
it's a.

880
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,680
Super complex 1 to to tie it
back to beach and and not just

881
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,720
beach really all all the ASX
names.

882
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,720
I'm, I'm sure you're, you're
more than aware of how things

883
00:53:05,720 --> 00:53:10,200
played out with the, the coal
names in Queensland and the

884
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,560
yeah, the changing of the goal
posts after the after the fact

885
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,280
and yeah.
The royalties and all that.

886
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,880
Yeah, exactly the.
Royalties after the investment

887
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:23,680
has been made, which is
obviously not what any mining

888
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,400
company wants.
And you know, you can sort of

889
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,120
say the same for an energy type
company.

890
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:34,560
Do you have concerns about that?
Should there be profits given

891
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:38,080
what has happened that those
profits might not fall to the

892
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,000
bottom line?
Yeah.

893
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,920
Yeah, I think generally you
would be silly to not have

894
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,160
concerns about government
anywhere in the world, whether

895
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:54,400
it's America or Australia, you
know, changing legislation after

896
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,840
the fact.
Because at the end of the day.

897
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,520
All investments are made based
on certainty.

898
00:53:59,720 --> 00:54:04,600
I said to someone in the office
today, you know, it's not that

899
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,480
the negative outcome, you know?
If there's a negative.

900
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,640
Outcome a negative tax
consequence or something, right?

901
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,720
At at least that can be factored
in in your original decision,

902
00:54:16,720 --> 00:54:18,160
right?
And everything can be worked

903
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,320
backwards.
But but you know, making new

904
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:25,280
rules after the fact I do
believe is a risk.

905
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:30,080
It's it's a risk here.
It's a risk in America it but it

906
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:34,200
does seem to be increasing.
And so, you know, Australia has

907
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:38,040
to be very careful that, you
know, the world is very

908
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,280
competitive and is very
globalized.

909
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,280
We need to be very careful with
some of the decisions we make.

910
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,480
And if we are a trading nation,
right and we want to keep to

911
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:53,400
attract foreign capital, you
know, we shouldn't be, we

912
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,720
shouldn't be doing things that
such as that, you know what they

913
00:54:57,720 --> 00:55:02,040
did with coal to dissuade
foreign capital from coming in.

914
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:06,960
So yes, it's on my mind.
Can I directly do anything about

915
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,520
it?
No, but but you need to be aware

916
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:15,240
that things can change rapidly,
another part of the energy.

917
00:55:15,240 --> 00:55:18,480
Market that might be even more
interesting than just

918
00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:22,680
traditional oil and gas and and
coal is the offshore services

919
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,000
play.
And as we touched on before this

920
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:30,280
is one of the Special Situations
funds that you set up the the

921
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:36,160
investment went to plan 2324.
You guys returned some money and

922
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,840
then a lot of these names, often
US listed names given MMA

923
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:45,120
offshore got gobbled up here,
Belarus or Noble Tidewater, all

924
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,800
these sorts of guys have really
peeled back.

925
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,120
And I think there's a part of
this discussion that relates to

926
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:55,120
the the pod shops and the
current way of the market that

927
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,040
is super, super present here.
We're talking about 1015% plus

928
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:01,480
short interest.
Do you think about reopening

929
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:06,840
this fund so.
Look, never say never.

930
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,960
It's not, it's not on the, the
top of our agenda.

931
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:14,280
And so we, the life cycle of the
fund is so it's, it's been over

932
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,440
three years, we've returned most
of the capital to investors.

933
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:25,200
So the top of my head, I think
the IRRS unlevered we're about

934
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:29,600
27% annualised for the fund.
We've returned pretty much most

935
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,160
capital to investors there.
Was some.

936
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,680
Investors where they they
actually said don't give us the

937
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:40,400
money back, we want to stay in.
So we have extended for 12

938
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:46,560
months but but the fund is it's
kind of like I think 80 plus

939
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:50,800
percent less because it's just a
handful of investors that stayed

940
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,680
in the more than 100% of the.
Capital was actually so it was

941
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:55,600
100.
And 25% of the capital

942
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,160
approximately was returned in,
in cash.

943
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,400
And then some got a little bit
more and then some decided to

944
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,960
stay in.
Look, the offshore oil services

945
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:12,440
sector, it's, it's bizarre
because some of the stocks have

946
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:17,920
nearly halved, the oil price
hasn't halved.

947
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,680
So I've got Michael to look at a
chart over the last 12 months.

948
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,840
So I think.
I think we.

949
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:31,840
Looked at A at a levered, so a
three times leverage oil, so

950
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:37,480
Brent ETF in America, so three
times leverage and that

951
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,680
basically mimicked the moves in
the offshore oil name.

952
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:45,400
So, so they're obviously a
levered play on the oil price.

953
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:50,480
Even though, even though their
earnings pretty much year on

954
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,840
year for all of the names have
gone up, I think consensus is

955
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,520
for earnings to continue to be
going up next year in the year

956
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,480
after.
I think what happened was the

957
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:04,000
old consensus from 12 months
ago, it's just been pushed

958
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:10,320
forward a year.
So the old 25 numbers, right is

959
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:14,440
now the 26 numbers and it's from
what I gathered, it's just

960
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,800
slight delays in various
projects.

961
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,480
Or on the flip side, even if the
projects wanted to go ahead,

962
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,000
there's been delays in
engineering or, or other

963
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:28,520
auxiliary services that relate
to the drilling because offshore

964
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:33,120
oil is still one of the cheapest
sources of oil globally.

965
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:41,000
And I think most pundits expect
oil to be with us for many

966
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,320
decades.
So it's so it's, you know, it's

967
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:48,080
not a question of will oil not
be needed in five years?

968
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:52,520
I think it's just the fact that
the oil price fell from you know

969
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:58,280
say $90.00 to high 60s.
Obviously that that didn't help

970
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,920
the sentiment some of the
deferrals in the sector.

971
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,920
But if you look at the the
earnings they're trading at

972
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,080
it's.
Again, they're pretty.

973
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:11,520
Cheap.
So would.

974
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:12,760
We.
Reopen it.

975
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,640
It's not high on the agenda, but
you have given me a good idea.

976
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,480
How do you think about?
A catalyst to send it that like

977
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,440
is it purely oil as you said
that seems.

978
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:26,640
A bit a bit short.
Sided given the.

979
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,400
Moat if you like.
That these businesses have with

980
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:35,000
the sunk money, sunk capital
into the the bits of kit, the

981
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,400
the ships, you know they are
billion dollar at times plus

982
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,080
bits of kit I think.
I think the two catalysts will

983
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:46,960
either be time.
I mean, you could argue as long

984
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,160
as the oil price stays where it
is, even if it drops a little

985
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,160
bit, as long as it, you know, it
doesn't go much below say 50 or

986
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,160
$60.00 for a, for a long period
time.

987
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:00,320
Because with time, because
there's no supply of these drill

988
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:03,320
ships.
And at the end of the day, you

989
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,320
know, these oil companies need
to replace their depleting

990
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:10,240
reserves or, you know, you could
argue need to replace a lot of

991
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:13,160
the depleting reserves,
especially, you know, knowing

992
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:16,400
their shale.
Wells depleted at 70 or 80% per

993
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:19,040
annum.
So the global depletion rate is

994
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,000
higher now than it ever has
been.

995
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:27,560
So, so time, I think time will
fix that because as time goes on

996
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,400
and there's not much supply of
these rigs, naturally, I feel

997
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,240
their day rates will just
continue to trickle up.

998
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:37,680
I mean, I believe their day
rates will surpass the previous

999
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:43,160
high in the previous market,
especially, especially now that

1000
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:48,920
you know, inflation isn't 0 and
customers I wouldn't say are

1001
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,760
happy, but they're willing to
accept increase in prices.

1002
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,960
So time time helps also in the
industry that's consolidating.

1003
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:58,200
I still think there'll be more
consolidation.

1004
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,000
I mean, there's already been
consolidation, but I still think

1005
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,920
there'll be more consolidation.
I think again, I don't know how

1006
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,600
true or not it is.
There's there's rumors that see

1007
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:09,920
Drill someone's going to make an
acquisition of see Drill,

1008
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,720
whether that's Valeris, whether
that's noble, I don't know.

1009
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:18,480
So I think time and then on the
flip side, so you know it will

1010
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,240
sort itself out in a couple of
years anyway, even if the price

1011
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:24,640
stays where it is.
On the flip side, if, if the oil

1012
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:29,480
price starts to go back up, as I
said, their earnings went up

1013
01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:36,360
year on year, but because oil
fell from $90.00 to high 60s,

1014
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:41,320
you know, there's been a pretty
big move in the stock prices.

1015
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:45,520
But granted, as you said, there
are, I have read about a lot of

1016
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:48,960
pod shops as well shorting so
that the shorting is pretty

1017
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:54,040
high.
I mean, I, it doesn't worry me.

1018
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:57,520
I've, I've made plenty of money
in plenty of industry sectors,

1019
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:00,120
companies where the short
interest is, is high.

1020
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:05,600
But yeah, it's, it's
fascinating, it's fascinating

1021
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:11,480
the, the markets love affair
towards sectors and then you

1022
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:13,880
know, within 6 to 12 months
it's, it's the diametric

1023
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,560
opposite.
But that's the opportunity I.

1024
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:18,360
Guess.
Yeah, absolutely.

1025
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:21,040
Time for for your investment
style is not not really a

1026
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:25,360
problem in M&A consolidation,
free cash flow, I mean one of

1027
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,160
our.
Advantages is arbitraging time.

1028
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,640
Simple as that.
I mean, I don't know how long

1029
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,640
certain things will take, but
you know, if you can think a

1030
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:39,520
little bit longer than the
average TikTok punter, you can

1031
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:42,200
do OK.
Absolutely I.

1032
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,240
Had a couple sort of general
investing type questions to ask

1033
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:49,040
you this before we wrap up.
And the, the first one I've been

1034
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:52,840
curious about since we last
spoke is your, your investment

1035
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,560
philosophy and how it changes
over time.

1036
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,680
I know you're a a massive sort
of Buffett and and manga fan and

1037
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:02,240
have learnt a lot in that sort
of school of thought, that value

1038
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,960
investing style.
And obviously there's a a key

1039
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,400
moment that they speak about in
their sort of evolution of

1040
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:12,120
really going for quality names
over cigar butts in in general

1041
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:15,160
terms.
How do you think about that in

1042
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:18,280
in your in your perspective?
I know it's something I'm sure

1043
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:19,480
it's something you would have
thought about.

1044
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:20,800
Yeah, sure.
Look.

1045
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,800
Again, I think you have to take
a a view on on which markets

1046
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:29,320
we're talking about.
So, so if we, if you talk

1047
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:33,280
globally, I feel generally
globally, if you're agnostic to

1048
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:37,200
the geography and you can hone
in on unloved geographies such

1049
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:42,160
as China was 12 months ago, you
know, you can really look at

1050
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,960
some of the amazing, if you
wanted to call Buffett type A1

1051
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,840
quality companies, you know,
long term compounders.

1052
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:51,800
I mean, who wouldn't want to buy
the Amazon of China at five

1053
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,040
times earnings?
You know, it's kind of a no

1054
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:58,280
brainer, but on the flip side,
the ASX is a bit of a different

1055
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:01,320
beast.
You know, it's not often, it's

1056
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:06,840
not often you get to buy high
quality, durable long term

1057
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:09,840
compounders at reasonable
prices.

1058
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:13,520
Now you could say, is that
because of the weight of money

1059
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:17,520
in the Super fund?
Is that just, you know, very,

1060
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:21,760
very top heavy taste market?
I'm not sure.

1061
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:26,640
And so we've, we've had to adapt
along the way.

1062
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:30,560
And, and so I guess from our
perspective, whether something

1063
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:34,120
is a cyclical, whether it's a
turn around that you have green

1064
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:36,800
shoots, so you're not predicting
a turn around, you're seeing a

1065
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:41,960
turn around, whether it's an
asset play, whether it is, you

1066
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:46,200
know, sometimes we, we, we do
takeover plays, you know, we

1067
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:49,480
consider low risk takeovers.
You know, you could argue

1068
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:54,840
there's only 4% on, on that
particular trade, but the IRS

1069
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:56,840
could still be pretty
substantial.

1070
01:04:56,840 --> 01:05:03,920
And so we've kind of had to have
a few ways that we can find

1071
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:07,080
asymmetry.
Obviously the, you know, if you

1072
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:12,320
had to pick the ultimate type of
investment, then then sure.

1073
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:17,080
It's, it's, it's those amazing
quality businesses or brands

1074
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:21,840
where they have one off issues
for some particular reason and

1075
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:24,760
you go in hard.
I find on, on the ASX.

1076
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:29,480
Generally those opportunities
come on a wholesale level when

1077
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:33,440
there's global uncertainty.
So you know, the two that come

1078
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:38,680
to mind where again, Collin
Street wasn't around then, but

1079
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:45,720
where I profited from was JFC,
clearly you could buy quality

1080
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:47,720
Australian companies at
discounted prices.

1081
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:52,000
And on the flip side, for Collin
Street Value Fund, we did do

1082
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,520
that during COVID.
So when there's global macro

1083
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,360
shocks, there's usually
opportunities in the larger end

1084
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:02,440
in Australia.
Other than that, it is a

1085
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:07,120
difficult place to navigate.
Last question is.

1086
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:11,480
On governance in Australia,
we've seen some fantastic

1087
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:14,960
collapses in, in sort of
governance or maybe the, the

1088
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:18,120
revealings of poor governance
standards in Australia.

1089
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,760
And obviously they catch a lot
more headlines than the, you

1090
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:25,360
know, phenomenal standards that
other companies have set over

1091
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:27,960
just doing what they do day in
day out.

1092
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:31,600
But what, what do you make of
governance standards across

1093
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:36,080
Australia at the moment?
And I know you, you prioritize

1094
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:39,440
high quality management above a
lot of other things, you know,

1095
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,560
tied in with, with valuation and
these sorts of things.

1096
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:45,680
But where do you think we sort
of stand in Australia against US

1097
01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:48,280
and other sort of similar
markets in in the West in our

1098
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:52,520
governance standards?
I think, look, to be honest, I

1099
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:58,880
think we're kind of on par.
I suspect America and Europe,

1100
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:04,000
they have their own headline
events, they have their own wise

1101
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:07,320
texts of this world.
We just probably don't know

1102
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:10,920
about it.
It does.

1103
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,680
It does.
Look, I think, look, I think at

1104
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:17,440
the end of the day, you know, I
think obviously it sells

1105
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:19,160
headlines.
It's good for the media.

1106
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:23,800
I wouldn't say our governance is
any worse than any other, you

1107
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:31,320
know, major Western world.
I do think, I do think it is

1108
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:34,480
harder to stay out of the
limelight these days.

1109
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:39,560
Whereas, you know, maybe, maybe
things, you know, 10 or 20 years

1110
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:41,880
ago wouldn't have made the
headlines, but now they do.

1111
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:46,400
And I think, I think there's
multiple reasons, multiple

1112
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:48,240
reasons, but you got to be very
careful.

1113
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:52,520
And so, you know, look, I, I
think, I think Australia's OK.

1114
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:56,040
I wouldn't say we're the global
best standards, but are we that

1115
01:07:56,040 --> 01:08:00,360
much worse than other nations?
Probably not.

1116
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:03,840
But that's, that's not based on
any hard stats or statistics.

1117
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:07,320
That's just kind of my gut feel
from what I read and and kind of

1118
01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:10,600
hear around the traps.
One quick last.

1119
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:14,440
One, I know you are consume a
lot of books and various sort of

1120
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:17,680
media sources out there.
Are there any sort of podcasts

1121
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:20,000
or books or newsletters or
whatever they might be that

1122
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:24,160
scream at as being sort of
fundamental, you know, with

1123
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:27,439
insight or entertainment in
recent times, you're saying

1124
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:28,640
apart from money?
Of mine.

1125
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:31,800
Very flattering.
Yeah.

1126
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:36,760
Look, I, I mean, I just briefly
tell you what I do.

1127
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:40,880
So everyday obviously read all
the newspapers, the AFR, the

1128
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,120
Australian, the age, the West
Australian.

1129
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:50,800
I, I try to listen to most of
your podcasts and I look, I

1130
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:54,279
don't want to name specifics,
but I, I like to read quality

1131
01:08:54,279 --> 01:08:57,319
fund manager reports.
So quarterly, quarterly reports,

1132
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:03,760
mainly US based.
And yeah, I mean, I've read

1133
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,040
pretty much all the Buffet books
I could ever read of, you know,

1134
01:09:07,040 --> 01:09:10,880
we've got poor Charlie's Almanac
here, a beauty.

1135
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:12,680
I've read that probably five
times.

1136
01:09:13,399 --> 01:09:16,160
I did pick up an old Buffett
book that I've read 10 times.

1137
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:21,200
I'm rereading it again.
But yeah, I, I wish I could be

1138
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:25,399
more specific, but yeah, these
days I like to read fund manager

1139
01:09:25,399 --> 01:09:29,000
reports, fund managers and, and,
and they can be relatively new

1140
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:31,240
fund managers too, by the way.
They, they don't have to be the

1141
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:34,200
doyens of the industry just to
keep abreast.

1142
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,359
The hard part is working out
whether it's crap or not.

1143
01:09:37,359 --> 01:09:39,760
Like, are they a good manager or
not a good manager because you

1144
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:43,200
don't want to waste your time.
So, so in today's day and age

1145
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:46,880
where we all have, you know,
minds like goldfish, you've got

1146
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:48,640
to be very efficient with your
rating.

1147
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:50,680
Perfect.
Thanks a lot for.

1148
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:52,000
Your time versus Congrats to
chat.

1149
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:56,480
Great stuff.
JD Buddy, a good long one level,

1150
01:09:56,480 --> 01:09:59,360
a good long one.
Yeah, the credits all.

1151
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:02,960
All to vast I you know, I love
hearing how these guys think and

1152
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:05,840
hopefully the money miners got
just as much value from that one

1153
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:07,800
as I did man.
So you get a value 100.

1154
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:10,920
Bucks off your ozone meme
Underground operators tickets

1155
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:14,720
are 190 or 160 off your GRX
conference tickets.

1156
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:17,800
That is value mate.
Plenty of value in all these

1157
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:19,840
companies as well.
Mineral mining services,

1158
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:23,880
grounded sambic ground support,
CRE insurance, K drill, WA water

1159
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:27,320
balls, swig, gatro project
engineering and cross boundary

1160
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:30,400
energy.
Sorry, information contained in

1161
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:33,240
this episode of Money of Mine is
of general nature only and does

1162
01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:36,000
not take into account the
objectives, financial situation

1163
01:10:36,080 --> 01:10:38,080
or needs of any particular
person.

1164
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:41,400
Before making any investment
decision, you should consult

1165
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:44,480
with your financial advisor and
consider how appropriate the

1166
01:10:44,480 --> 01:10:48,160
advice is to your objectives,
financial situation and needs.