Building Mining Behemoths from Acorns (Owen Hegarty)

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Righto money miners, Here's a
weekend special for you with one

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of the old school mining
magnates which just goes

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perfectly with the new school
open pit mining magnate.

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MMS are ready for a open pit
contract yesterday.

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Gay people get in touch.
Don't miss out on this early

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bird offer, you'd say.
They told me mate, that, you

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know, they just have spare fleet
there.

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They they don't want downtime.
They're aligned.

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Mate, they've got the fleet
driving around the country at

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the moment just cause to
statistically give themselves

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the best chance of getting it to
your side as quick as possible.

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So mate, give them a buzz.
JD.

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Mate, you've mate, you locked
down a big dog while you're over

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east.
We did mate.

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So Owen Hegarty is who this
discussion is with and it's it's

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a bit different.
So I want to introduce it sort

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of appropriately 'cause we spend
a lot of time discussing the,

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the sort of here and now, the
markets where they're going in

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the future.
But given our sort of relative

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youth, you could say I think
there's a lot for us to learn.

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So thought it'd be a good
opportunity to to speak with

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someone with a boatload of
experience.

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And I think Owen sort of fits
the bill perfectly.

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He, he worked at Rio for 25 odd
years, ended up heading the Asia

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part of their business as well
as the Aussie copper gold part

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of the business.
That is when the company was

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called CRA shortly before the
the merger to become Rio Tinto.

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He then went to start Oxiana in
1995, which ultimately merged

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with Zinefx, which we chat
about, which is what became Oz

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Minerals in sort of 2008 and
onwards.

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He then left, you know, in the
in the interim, he joined the

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board at Fortescue, ultimately
became the vice chairman at

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Fortescue.
So he has done plenty of roles

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and then if that wasn't sort of
enough in the early 20 tens, he

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started AMR Capital.
Now people will know these guys

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as owners of Ravenswood,
Kestrel, Bombay, amongst others,

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29 Meadows, another name.
They have done a number of

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deals, have raised 3 funds since
they started in the early 20

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tens.
So plenty of experience for us

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to sort of chip out.
So we spent a lot of the

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conversation going through what
he sort of learnt along that

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journey, some of the the ups and
downs along the way and sort of

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lessons that we can kind of pull
out in in our journey going

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forward.
Interesting when you say the the

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links between what AM Rs got now
and what Oxiana had like with

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Golden Grove and things like
that.

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So Nah, very interested.
It's going to be a Ripper JD.

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Good work sunshine.
Let's RIP it, aye?

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Let's go.
Owen Hegarty, thanks for making

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the time and coming on money of
mine.

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Thank you very much for giving
me the opportunity, John.

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It's lovely to be here.
The the first question I've got

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to ask you is one that I sort of
came about in in my research,

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listening to a podcast you've
done a couple years ago, you

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called Melbourne the mining
capital of the world.

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And I think a few people in
Perth might pick a fight with

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this comment.
Do you still sort of feel the

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way you know, feel that way
30-40 years after starting your

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career here?
Definitely still, I mean, not so

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much the capital of the world,
but the capital of the universe.

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Jonas is, is Melbourne.
Bearing in mind that we started

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it all here about 170 years ago.
I was a very young fellow at the

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time, of course, but this was
the, this was the gold rushes,

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remember back in the 1850s or
thereabouts.

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So that's how a lot of the, the
surplus that was grown from

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mining here in Victoria, a lot
of the institutions started at

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that time and then it developed
out into other areas.

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But that's why you still find
that BHP is headquartered here,

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for example, because that's
where it all began in a way.

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And as I say, a lot of the a lot
of the surplus and the Melbourne

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Mining Club, Jonas is a very big
institution here.

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So we get plenty of people
coming to that.

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But of course, yes, it has moved
more to Perth.

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Some of my best friends actually
come from Perth Jonas, so

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definitely much more a centre
these days.

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Well.
We can, we can take that

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argument offline and keep going
with that one, but we'll keep

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going.
I want to dig into, you know, a

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lot of your experience, you've
spent a lot of time in the, in

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the mining industry and then get
into some of the deals you've

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done here at AMR and
everything's sort of in between

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and looking forward.
But I want to go go back, go

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back a few years to what was
CRA, what became Rio Tinto,

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where you started your career
some time ago.

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And I want to hear about the
sort of entrepreneurial culture,

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how you sort of see it at that
time.

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A lot of people make the
criticism of these majors that

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it kind of stifles the
entrepreneurial kind of spirit.

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But you know, you've clearly
shown through your career that

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you've you've got that and it
wasn't stifled at CRA.

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What was it like working at that
organisation at that time?

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And how does it sort of differ
from how you see company

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nowadays?
Well, very interesting and but a

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very broad question of course.
So yes, going all the way back

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to the Rio Tinto days.
No worries.

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I mean, I, I spent 2425 years
with Rio Tinto, pretty much all

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their companies, all their
countries and all their

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commodities.
So, so very lucky actually to

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have that sort of span of career
with the Rio Tinto.

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Wonderful company, wonderful
people and A and A and a

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wonderful culture.
One of the things that I thought

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about Rio was, you know, with,
with, with hindsight and, and

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with some present sight whilst I
was working there was they

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really had a, a very strong
growth and entrepreneurial bent.

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So it wasn't just a businesses
as usual.

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It was very much a growth
orientation and and

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entrepreneurial people there all
the way up, up and down the the

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chain going all the way back in
fact to Saval Duncan.

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Would you believe now that goes
back a long, long time as the

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chairman of Rio Tinto and I was
lucky enough to, to be in London

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and working for Rio when, when
Val was in charge effectively as

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the, as the executive chairman
of the company.

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So he had that entrepreneurial
bent it, it actually came

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through in the into the Rio
Tinto CRA, people here in, at

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Rio Tinto CRA in Melbourne, the
really, really wonderful people

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like Sir Roderick Carnegie, John
Ralph, many of the leaders of

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Rio Tinto had that growth
entrepreneurial orientation.

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So what, what are some of the,
the assets you, you worked at

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like you mentioned you spent
sort of 24 years there.

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You ultimately became the
managing director of Rio Asia as

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well as the the copper and gold
assets as I sort of understand

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in, in Australia.
Can you can you run through some

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of the projects and mines you
sort of operated at through that

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period?
Yes, well, I think.

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Probably the the main break if
you like, if you want to call

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that in inside Rio Tinto, I mean
as I had a lot, a lot of

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different areas and so on, just
terrific, terrific people,

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terrific background.
So very lucky really in a way.

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But then the last several years
of my so called career there, if

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you like was with in the Asian
area.

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So we were developing new
markets, we were developing new

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businesses in the Asian region
and that and that came about.

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It was is very much a a push and
a drive by Sir Rod and others on

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the board at that time.
And John Ralph in was in the

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senior management ranked to
build our businesses in Asia

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because that's where the growth
was clearly going to come from

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or was clear to some at that
time that maybe not clear to to

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others type of thing.
And I think that we got on the

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front foot, we got on the front
foot with Kamalka.

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We got on the front foot with
our our lid and zinc businesses.

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We got on the front foot with
our copper business.

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So, so we were looking to not
only grow our markets there, but

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to grow our business in that
part of the world, which would

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ultimately buy products from,
from Australia and from other

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sources of, of metals and, and
materials from other Rio Tinto

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Group places, if you like.
So, so that's, and, and I was

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part of that campaign, if you
like.

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That took on on for a long time
there.

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And, and in, in a way, it was
very successful, not very much,

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you know, attributable to me,
but some of The Pioneers there

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did a, did an amazing job in
terms of actually getting

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involved in businesses, getting
involved in that market

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development activity.
And you could literally see the

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countries growing there.
Jonas, we're talking about,

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we're talking about Thailand,
Vietnam, Singapore, Indonesia,

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Taiwan, Korea, Japan was
continuing to develop and, and

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China, of course, just starting
to open up.

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So really very exciting times
and probably the most, you know,

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luckiest break if you like that
I had a lot of time in that part

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of the world and a lot of time
with with those businesses.

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So that was a that to me was an
important step to actually be

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part of that.
So that that Asia component is a

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sort of big feature in your
career.

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Is that, is that something you
sought out, you wanted to

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experience, you know that part
of the world the the culture

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there operating, doing business
in in these parts of the world

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or is it more Rio wanted to
expand there and they sort of

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said, hey, I want to either the
man for the job, do you want to

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go over there?
How did that sort of all come

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about?
Well, it was a drive from Rio

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Tinto.
And then of course it became a

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personal drive in a way that you
could actually see the long

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strong demand for all of the
metals and commodities that we

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were involved in and other
metals and commodities that we

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weren't involved.
Rio.

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It had a bit of a pause there in
terms of some of the things that

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it was actually doing and copper
and, and base metals.

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And, and around about the same
time, I saw the opportunity to

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get involved in our own business
outside of Rio Tinto, getting

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involved in a business growing
on the, on the strength of the

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growth in Asia in, in all of
those markets, sourcing

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materials from Australia and
other parts of the world and

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being involved in mining, not
only in, in the existing and

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more established mining centres,
but in those Asian mining

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centres.
And that's what that's when

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that's effectively how we
started Oxiana, got it, got

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involved in, you know, Asia
Pacific base and precious metals

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with, with a, with Australia and
Asia.

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So let's let's tap into that.
Then you leave in the the early

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90s CRA which later merges by
that time you're managing

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director of Oxiana sort of 1995
period as I kind of understand

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it.
What is that first five years

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like there?
So the the second mine comes

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online in 2000, but you know,
you're doing something quite

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entrepreneurial.
Why did you decide to leave and,

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you know, talk us through that
those sort of early days?

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OK.
Well, that's well I, I, I'd

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spent 2425 years with Rio Tinto,
they were, they were having a

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bit of a pause if you like in
terms of the basement and and

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precious metals areas.
So I saw the opportunity because

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the growth was continuing in
Asia and the growth for for

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copper are the base and precious
metals of the aluminium, whether

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it was zinc, whether it was
lead, whether other a nickel,

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whether all of those things
continuing.

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So I saw the opportunity to to
jump out and put together

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capital, put together people,
people that I actually work with

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inside Rio Tinto and begin our
own journey in the Mighty Ox.

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And you know the we grew up, we
grew a company there from a few

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$1,000,000 to a few billion
dollars.

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As I say to people, the
overnight success that took

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about 15 years or thereabouts
from the, from the mid 90s to

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the, the mid 2000s and late
2000s type of thing.

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So it was really just the
opportunity to be able to do

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that.
Now what, what was it like?

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It was never simple, never easy
leaving the mothership to go out

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sort of pretty much on your own,
you know, with, yes, with

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friends and family support.
So never simple, never easy

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doing that.
And those first five years,

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that's what you, you asked the
first five years.

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Well, it was really quite hard
work.

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I mean, you spend your whole,
your whole day, your whole week,

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your whole life actually out
there talking to people about

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00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,960
what you, what you're looking to
do, talking to people about your

224
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,160
assets, raising funds to
actually keep doing the work on

225
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,800
those assets and, and doing your
day job all at the same time.

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00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,720
As I say to people at, at the
smaller, smaller resources,

227
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,080
entrepreneurial in you spend
100% of your time talking to

228
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,600
people about your company.
You spent 100% of your time

229
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,040
raising money to do the things
that you're talking about.

230
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,960
And you and you spend 100% of
your time doing your day job.

231
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,760
So you know it's a.
It's a big task.

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00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:27,520
Did you, did you ever sort of
think in that period maybe it

233
00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,560
would have been easier just
hanging on it, had it pretty

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00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:32,840
good at Rio?
Well, there were plenty of

235
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,560
times, Jonas, during that, the
first five to 10 years that I

236
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,440
thought, well, maybe I, you
know, should have stayed at the

237
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,160
mothership a bit longer, but not
really.

238
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,200
Look, we were going quite well.
I had good encouragement and

239
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:50,040
support from friends and family,
had very good support from all

240
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,400
of those things that we were
doing, the businesses that we

241
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,720
were getting involved in.
And the main one of those, of

242
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,520
course was in in Laos in the,
you know, People's Democratic

243
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:05,680
Republic of Lao up there, you
know, South of China and, and to

244
00:14:05,680 --> 00:14:07,960
the east of Thailand and the
West of Vietnam.

245
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:12,320
So in that, that particular
corner there in Indochina and it

246
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,840
was a Rio project and, and we
thought probably a bit too small

247
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,560
and bit too, bit too far away
for Rio, for Rio.

248
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,040
So we, we got involved and that
became our our flagship if you

249
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:29,160
like to you know in gold 1st and
then into copper and we grew the

250
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,240
business based on that very good
foundation up.

251
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,920
So a lot sort of starts coming
together in that, that mid 2000s

252
00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:37,480
period.
You probably just got 7 as you

253
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:42,320
sort of just described by 2004.
You consolidate prominent Hill,

254
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,280
you do a deal with with Minotaur
in 2005, you buy Golden Grove

255
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,840
just to go back to the, the Asia
bull market.

256
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,480
Is there a point in time where
you, you really were able to

257
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,200
point to and say, you know, this
what's happening in China is, is

258
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,440
quite something else.
This is going to last for a

259
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,600
really sustained period and it's
going to materially change the

260
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,160
the mining businesses across
Australia.

261
00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,280
Well, it was around about that,
that time you remember there was

262
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,360
a Asian financial crisis at the
end of the 90s.

263
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:19,080
So that that again, you know,
that was a that that sort of

264
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,360
held everybody back around about
that time.

265
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,080
So it was tough enough actually
getting things done.

266
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,760
And then the Asian financial
crisis, so you know, you had you

267
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,680
had banks and and debt markets
and equity markets in difficulty

268
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,480
countries were you know, the
Asian countries themselves are

269
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,360
obviously pause in terms of
growth.

270
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,600
But at the same time you did see
that underlying current of

271
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,440
strong growth, particularly from
China and and at the same time

272
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,120
you've got Taiwan, you've got
Korea, got Japan.

273
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:55,160
So that NE Asian complex was
continuing to grow and supply

274
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,920
goods out into the whole Western
mark.

275
00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:03,240
So Asian financial crisis didn't
last for for too long type of

276
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:04,560
thing.
But it was around about that

277
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,080
time, the turn of the
effectively the turn of the

278
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,080
century, if you like that you
that it was starting to become

279
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,280
very clear and evident that
there was, you know, it was

280
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:14,840
going to be stronger for longer
here.

281
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,240
You know that you did see that
you could see that growth coming

282
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,680
and you know then the next 20
years or or thereabouts, you've

283
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:27,360
seen everybody get on board that
superhighway of economic growth

284
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,880
and prosperity or looking to get
on board.

285
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,240
There's still plenty of
countries that are looking to

286
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,840
continue to grow.
So it was really during that

287
00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,600
time we had the, we started the
operation there in Laos.

288
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,920
We were building the, we built
the gold mine and was operating

289
00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:44,760
very well.
We expanded the gold mine.

290
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,840
We got involved in the, in the
copper mine.

291
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,400
Needed something in Australia.
Remember that we're in the

292
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,960
People's Democratic Republic of
Laos here.

293
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,880
It's not that well known in this
part of the world, not that well

294
00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:02,360
known to to ASX investors, not
that well known to worldwide

295
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,480
investors.
So despite the fact that it was

296
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,200
actually going very well, that's
the the good thing about it.

297
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,480
So we needed the, we needed
something in Australia or

298
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,839
nearby, something a bit more
familiar, which is, as you say,

299
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:20,240
how we got involved with the
project in South Australia.

300
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,599
The prominent hill ultimately
built that mine that was the the

301
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,400
the mine that had the seven to
eight year life to begin with

302
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,440
and will now go for 37 or 48
years or or thereabouts.

303
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,400
So did a did a terrific job
there, the whole team putting

304
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,360
all that together.
And then we bought closely on

305
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:45,880
that golden Grove and, and here
in Australia and.

306
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,800
Multiple other acquisitions over
time, but they were the.

307
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,600
That was the time around about
the turn of the early part of

308
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,720
the 2000s.
If you like a good strong

309
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,680
growth, good, good pricing, some
good, some good luck, you know,

310
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,360
and some breaks.
And and a couple of, you know,

311
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:07,080
some good people in the in the
firm and some good decisions,

312
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,080
put it that way.
So put put all of those things

313
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,880
together, Jonas gave us that
the, you know, the key

314
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,480
SuccessFactors to be able to
build the business.

315
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,080
Just to go deeper on
accumulating the the assets

316
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,960
there, there's sort of differing
views out there about the

317
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,480
revenue diversification across
commodities that that a company

318
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,480
should kind of have.
And I guess this one kind of

319
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,200
changes over time.
A lot of people point to to

320
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,880
copper today and these guys, you
know, trading on premium

321
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,640
multiples.
If they're not, you know, within

322
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,280
a diversified miner, how do you
kind of think about that?

323
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,640
Was that always the ambition to
have a bit of gold, have a bit

324
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,840
of copper, have other base
metals, zinc and lead just to

325
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,800
build that sort of
diversification and, you know,

326
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,160
rigidity within the business or
did that just sort of come about

327
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,960
organically?
Well, I think I think bit of a

328
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,760
combo.
You know, we, we, we, we had a

329
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,120
vision and, and of course as you
build the business, your vision

330
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:07,560
tends to expand somewhat over
time depending on your, the, the

331
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,560
capability of the assets that
you have and, and the people and

332
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,960
the support group that you, you
have.

333
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,000
OK.
So we started very clear vision.

334
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,000
We're going to build this gold
mine, you know, and then we're

335
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,040
going to expand the gold mine.
Now we're going to add the

336
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,640
copper mine because we were
copper and gold people.

337
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:31,480
We saw, you know, we saw that
gold was was going to continue

338
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,560
to perform because it
outperformed everything else up

339
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,880
until that time.
And we saw copper going to

340
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,000
continue to perform because of
its diversity of uses, if you

341
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,120
like, in terms of, of copper,
red gold, we called it at the

342
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:45,800
time.
So you know, you, you've got,

343
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,000
you've got 2 very good metals.
But but then outside of that you

344
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,480
wanted, we wanted to add others
including nickel and and zinc,

345
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:58,120
say, so sort of Basian Basin
precious metals We're the.

346
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:02,040
Bulk commodities, whether it was
coal, whether it was iron ore,

347
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,400
really.
Had to come next, let's let's

348
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:09,800
build this basin precious metals
business and and then perhaps go

349
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,440
to diversified later because
Janice in in answer to your

350
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:20,960
question, we we saw a long term
future for a good scale mining

351
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,960
company.
Mining and minerals processing

352
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,800
company to be, you know,
reasonably well diversified,

353
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,320
didn't want to focus only on
basin precious metals.

354
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,000
We thought we should add to that
metallurgical coal, for example.

355
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:38,120
And iron ore, in fact,
ultimately because of the steel

356
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:41,080
industry.
Growth potential and and you

357
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,680
know the.
The steel industry as you as you

358
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,880
know as well as I do has
actually grown enormously over

359
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,160
the past 2 1/2 decades.
So type of thing.

360
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,480
So it's very much horses for
courses.

361
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,600
You got to focus on those things
that you've got in hand.

362
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,840
You've got to have the vision
and it's really a step by step

363
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,560
approach.
And that's that's where we

364
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,280
wanted to take this business
because we think that long term

365
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,480
shareholder value in a mining
company is grown by taking it

366
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,000
all the way down.
Now that's the BHPS, that's the

367
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,360
Rio Tintos, that's the Anglos,
that's the Glencos.

368
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:19,920
They're, they're those big guys,
long term sustainable high

369
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,920
return businesses.
That's where we were taking the

370
00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,320
company.
I swore he was just about to

371
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,400
mention MMTS then when he was
talking about long term

372
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,680
sustainable high return
businesses.

373
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,880
Jay's didn't that come into
that's when they're talking FMG

374
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,160
Rio badge pay.
I'll just MMTS same sort of same

375
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:40,760
definition.
Yeah, rolls off the tongue.

376
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,280
The OG of mining title
compliance in all Australian

377
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,920
jurisdictions.
I I'll just repeat that.

378
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:51,440
All Australian jurisdictions,
right cut.

379
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,400
It reminds me that I think we've
done it before, that Wolf of

380
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,440
Wall Street thing like cutting
edge land monitoring systems for

381
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,520
finding new title application
opportunities across Australia,

382
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,760
similar to what was it called.
Aero.

383
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,200
Aero time, that's.
The one that's the one.

384
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,760
Yeah, pretty much the equivalent
of that, but not a penny stock.

385
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,600
So mate, they are that good.
MMTS are doing this.

386
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,680
They know in advance via
telepathic messages where the

387
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,960
mining owners are even
considering not renewing a title

388
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,960
or selling one.
Every corner of the country,

389
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,720
every corner.
Up here it's just messages

390
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,960
coming in but.
You know how valuable a mine is

391
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,600
if you don't have title to it.
It's not valuable.

392
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,840
Good for nothing.
Good for nothing.

393
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,480
Industry leaders.
You give either Helen or Shannon

394
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:46,320
a call and be to just be
prepared to be impressed, Yeah,

395
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,680
by their awesomeness.
Feel it is go MMTS.

396
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,600
You beauty.
So come 2008, you know, it's

397
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,200
been a, been a hell of a 13 or
14 years and you, you announced

398
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,920
this big deal sort of headline
$12 billion merger Oxiana and

399
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,160
Zen Effects coming together in
March of 2008.

400
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,000
So the beginning of, you know,
what ultimately became a

401
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,800
volatile year all around the
world.

402
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:17,400
But I'm keen to tap into doing a
deal like that.

403
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,920
So I was reading some articles
in the AFR and the Australian

404
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,600
from the time and this talk that
this deal took, you know, over a

405
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,320
year to kind of piece together
what what was sort of crafting

406
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,680
that deal like and what are the
the underweighted factors in

407
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,360
doing a deal of that sort of
magnitude.

408
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,040
Yes.
Well, again, it was as you say,

409
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,680
it's a volatile period.
So it was a pretty tough time.

410
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,800
But we saw the just going back
to my point about the

411
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,040
diversification, we think you've
got to get got to get bigger and

412
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,840
you've got to be more
diversified.

413
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,840
There were multiple
opportunities for us at the time

414
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,920
to do that.
We had a number of organic

415
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,600
opportunities and we were
pursuing those and we had the

416
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:02,240
had the wherewithal to be able
to do that.

417
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,240
But we thought there were some
inorganic, some acquisitive type

418
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,920
opportunities again with with
diversity into into the bulk

419
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,440
commodities and with diversity
into both into.

420
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,360
Base and precious metals so so
actually.

421
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,720
The the, the merger with Zinefx
of about the same size was a

422
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:27,760
whilst you say it took 12 months
or so to do because the GFC sort

423
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:33,760
of got in the way a bit there,
but it was, it was one step in

424
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:40,040
the road to a bigger, wider
diverse vision that we had for

425
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,040
the company.
So it.

426
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,480
Was one step.
It had, you know, world class

427
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,160
operations and it had a very
good growth profile itself.

428
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,160
We knew the people, we knew the
industry were very comfortable

429
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,600
with all of all of those things.
So, so it was a it was a

430
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,600
marriage that or a merger that
was actually going to be

431
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,960
relatively straightforward in
terms of putting the companies

432
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,000
and the people and the projects
and the synergies and so on

433
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:07,480
together.
What?

434
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,600
What?
It didn't become straightforward

435
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,160
because of the the GFC just
interrupted the whole process,

436
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,120
you know, unfortunately.
But then, but the pieces were

437
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:24,040
picked up and and and it went on
to be very successful in in

438
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:28,640
back, back into two companies,
MMG and and OZ mineral.

439
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,240
So I mean all all of.
Those things ultimately worked,

440
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,040
but they got sort of interfered
with if you like during the GFC.

441
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,560
But, but in answer to your
question, Jonas, it was really

442
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:45,680
part of a a strategy to put
together multiple commodities

443
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,720
because we think long term value
is grown by having a good

444
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,120
diverse strength to put those
multiple commodities together

445
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,160
over a period of time.
You don't do it simply, you

446
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,560
don't do it easily.
You don't do it real fast.

447
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,840
Time and you've got to take the
opportunities as they come to

448
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,280
you and you can actually create
them.

449
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:08,960
So it it does take time to put
all of that together.

450
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,280
So one of the big factors at
that time was that credit

451
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,680
markets just really locked up.
And as you sort of mentioned

452
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,560
before we spoke, you know,
bankers wouldn't even pick up

453
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,280
the phone.
And this this became a, a real

454
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,240
tough point for what became Oz
Minerals that the merged entity

455
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,440
there with, you know, the
refinancing of the debt hitting

456
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,600
a, you know, hitting a hump in
the road.

457
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,240
Having experienced that and, and
looking back with with

458
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,720
hindsight, how do you think
about the debt levels within a

459
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,760
mining organisation?
Not necessarily like technicals

460
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,840
EBITDA times, you know net debt
levels, but how do you kind of

461
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,320
think more holistically about
the leverage with inside a

462
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,360
mining business having lived
through that period?

463
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,080
Yes.
Well, look, I think it's.

464
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:56,240
It's very much horses for
courses.

465
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,520
I mean at, at the time of course
of the of the GFC, you know, as

466
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,480
you say you, you couldn't get
the banks to answer the phone,

467
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,920
they weren't responding.
It was very difficult to whether

468
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,920
it was a refinance, whether it
was a deferral, whether it was

469
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,360
whether it was really some
elementary questions that you

470
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:17,080
wanted to, you know, talk to
them about it.

471
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,600
It was just a very, very
difficult time.

472
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,760
And it wasn't as if the company
was in any way shape or form

473
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,200
over leverage.
The the debt levels were

474
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,440
relatively modest relative to as
you say EBITDA multiples and

475
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,800
various other things at the
time.

476
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,000
It's just that one or two were
coming due so as to speak and

477
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,680
that just made it a bit awkward
from the very, very short term.

478
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,200
So how do we think about it?
Well, we think about it pretty

479
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,040
much the same way as everybody
else does.

480
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,800
Got to, it's got to be.
Within your means so as to

481
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,080
speak.
I mean you must.

482
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,840
You must always be considering
leverage to ensure that you

483
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,880
provide the right returns to
your.

484
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,200
Equity shareholders, but it's
got to be within your means,

485
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,040
whether you call that modest
levels or reasonable levels or

486
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,560
five times EBITDAR or two times
or whatever, whatever, you know

487
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,240
with hedging, without hedging,
long term, short term working

488
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,920
capital, whatever sort of
metrics and and so on that you

489
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,080
want to put around it.
You, you, you're always thinking

490
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,160
of, of those sorts of things and
you're always.

491
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,360
Looking at it with one eye on,
well, you know, the future,

492
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,920
we're talking about interest
rates, what's the Fed going to

493
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,080
do, what's the RBA going to do?
So you're always looking at

494
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,600
those things and your finance
team always looking at it,

495
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,280
always looking from the from the
point of view of what are the

496
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,920
requirements of the business.
Going forward, in other words,

497
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,080
what cash flows do you need?
To.

498
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,160
Continue to grow your business.
What cash flows do do you want

499
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,240
to ensure that your shareholders
are rewarded?

500
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,600
And you know, debt is an
important part of all that.

501
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,840
And by the way, of course those
debt markets come and go a bit

502
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,080
too.
You know, whether it's the bond

503
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,400
market or the OR the banking
market and so on, as well as the

504
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,040
equity markets do go up and
down.

505
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,160
Or.
The availability of of equity,

506
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,080
it's one thing to say, well,
yes, we think we can, we should

507
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,520
be putting some debt on this
particular project, but it's not

508
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,360
available, you know so or.
You'd like to put more equity,

509
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,080
but that's not available.
So you know, you've got to go

510
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,480
with the with the flow a bit
from time to time as well.

511
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,960
And that's another reason,
Jones, another reason to

512
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,720
actually be diversified.
In other words, get get into

513
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,280
metals and commodities that do
give you that sort of diversity.

514
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,520
And, and arrange where people
will say, well, we like to have

515
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,200
some gold in the portfolio
because it's a hitch, you know,

516
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,440
when things are tough, people,
people will, you know, there's a

517
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,240
flight to gold so as to speak.
So always good to have some of

518
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:56,920
that in the portfolio, so to
speak.

519
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:02,360
Steel industry met coal and and
iron ore, you know the the whole

520
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,400
information technology
communications and and

521
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,920
electrical and energy transition
industries met all of those be

522
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,960
in copper so.
That that's the sort of very

523
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,880
high level strategic.
Thinking if you like?

524
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,760
Well, you can't get any more
bloody high level and strategic

525
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,000
than CRE insurance broking
services can you boys?

526
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,040
Not at all mate, mate.
I was talking to Tari the other

527
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,000
day and holy snap and duck shit.
There is some thought from the

528
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,080
CRE crew that goes into
protecting mining companies and

529
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,200
mining services companies from
risk.

530
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,320
Tell me.
Oh mate, the I won't tell you,

531
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,760
I'll get them to tell you
because mate, the office still

532
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,280
stands, doesn't it?
A free review of your existing

533
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,800
insurance policies.
If you're a mining company,

534
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,160
mining services provider, there
might be gaps, you don't know.

535
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,160
Doesn't matter if you own the
mine, you want to service the

536
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,360
mine, you need good insurance,
you need CRE to broke the

537
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,120
policies for you for Australia,
Africa or anywhere in the

538
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:04,720
bloody.
World how often do we see

539
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,200
surprises to the downside in in
releases mate?

540
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,400
Well guess what?
I'm pretty sure the best people

541
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,520
to to to price that risk the
underwriters.

542
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,200
So get in touch with CR
insurance and sort it.

543
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,720
Out mate, if you want to put out
a positive ISX announcement

544
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,320
because you had a sensational
insurance policy and you want

545
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,120
like which could be share price
accretive, it's only going to

546
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,600
happen if CRE broke it for you.
It's the the unknown unknowns

547
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,040
that are really scary and you
have a chat with these guys,

548
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,200
they know every single in and
out of the insurance game.

549
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,720
Just get them to run their eyes
over your report and you'll be.

550
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,720
You will feel more comfortable.
Just turn insurance into a

551
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,840
positive, That's it.
We know positive insurance

552
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,200
stories out there.
CRE are going to deliver it.

553
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,760
Go CRE.
So at at a personal level by the

554
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,400
end of 2008 you're leaving Oz
Minerals with a few other things

555
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,680
on the on the horizon.
But there was a sort of

556
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,400
publicised termination payment
that didn't get voted through at

557
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,360
the AGM.
Was that disappointing from the

558
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,880
perspective you've been at the
company sort of 14 years, you'd

559
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,200
LED it for a long time.
Was it sort of understandable in

560
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,240
the light of everything that had
gone on, as we sort of just

561
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:10,840
discussed?
How did you feel about that at

562
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,040
the time?
Look, I think it's a bit

563
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,200
unfortunate timing, you might
say.

564
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,880
I mean right in the middle of
the of the global financial

565
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,800
crisis, when, when equity
markets have been smashed, I

566
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,320
mean countries have been
smashed, commodities have been

567
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,040
smashed, companies have been
smashed.

568
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,800
Individuals have been smashed.
So, so asking for approvals for

569
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,800
anything.
And of course you have to, if

570
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,960
you're making payments to
directors, various other things,

571
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,440
you know, whether they're
termination, whether they're,

572
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,360
you know, your accumulated
leave, whatever, whatever it is

573
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,040
that you're asking for, you're
always going to get a bit of a,

574
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,160
you know, a negative response
out there.

575
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,000
So it was probably more
unfortunate timing than anything

576
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,320
else really, I mean.
You know, at that time, not,

577
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,160
not, not a great time, but you
know, you, you've got a, you

578
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,280
know, from out of adversity
comes opportunity as far as I

579
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,480
was concerned, that's always
been my attitude to it.

580
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,960
So.
We we we grew back and the

581
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:18,760
companies sailed off and and did
did very well and then between

582
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,240
myself and my partners and verse
other people, we actually got.

583
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,000
We got into other businesses, we
got it, got into other things,

584
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,720
so we sort of recoup, recovered,
refreshed and re emerged.

585
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,600
That's a real stand out feature.
What you just mentioned there

586
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,520
something I really noticed
digging in into the sort of

587
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,440
experiences you've had that the
same names keep popping up in

588
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,520
and around you, whether that be
from your Rio Tinto days to your

589
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,240
Oxiana days through to your EMR
days.

590
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,080
And I, you know, from the
outside, I think that's quite an

591
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,320
admirable trait to, to work with
people for for so long.

592
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,240
What's the kind of, you know,
thinking that?

593
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,600
Have you just got a good group
of people that you enjoy working

594
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:58,760
with?
Are there are there secrets?

595
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,920
Is it a bit of a you know, and
fro at times?

596
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,360
How do you think about it?
Well, look, the way I think

597
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,239
about it is very lucky, you
know, very lucky to have had the

598
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,719
so called career, if you like,
in terms of Rio Tinto and the Ox

599
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,800
and various other things I've
been involved in, including, you

600
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,000
know, the mighty EMR that we are
today.

601
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,040
And very lucky to have been
associated with some amazing

602
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,960
people and some of whom are
still, you know, with us and,

603
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:31,239
and working with us and so on.
So I've always, you know, had a

604
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,320
great admiration for their
capabilities and you know,

605
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,440
without them in a way we
wouldn't have had the the things

606
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,440
that we've been able to achieve
over that period of time.

607
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,600
So that's the way I think about
I think that they are, you know,

608
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,679
we're part of team, nothing more
powerful really than people

609
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:54,199
working together in teams.
You know, you, you see that, we

610
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:56,480
see that.
And, and it's so important in,

611
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,360
you know, what we've been
through, particularly those

612
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,920
volatile periods.
I mean, the the team really,

613
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,720
really comes together, you know,
when things are, when things are

614
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:10,240
a bit on the top side.
So you know that that's been

615
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,640
terribly important, terribly
important to me in terms of

616
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,680
survival, but terribly important
to them too in terms of all of

617
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,760
those people working together.
So it's, it's not as if it's a

618
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,440
team of 25 players.
You know, it's a team of a few

619
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,560
people, including Tony Manini or
Jason Chang and, and various

620
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,800
others that we've worked with
over the last 2025, thirty

621
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,480
years.
And, and as I say Jonas, I've

622
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,160
also been, you know, lucky
enough to work with a whole

623
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,320
range of wonderful people in
various areas, whether it's in

624
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:49,400
Rio Tinto, CRA, FMG, for
example, and, and all of the

625
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,960
other sort of industry
groupings, if you like, around.

626
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,360
So not just the companies per
SE, but also the advisory groups

627
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,560
and the the Mets, you know, the
mining equipment, technical

628
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,200
services people and so on.
So I feel, I feel very lucky

629
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,560
that I've had that experience
and, you know, still.

630
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,000
Working with them.
But another group you've worked

631
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,640
with is Fortescue Metals.
You joined as a non exec

632
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:18,320
director in late 2008,
eventually became the the vice

633
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,320
chairman there.
What what was that like?

634
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,880
I was reading presentations, you
know, last night about Fortescue

635
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,520
from 2008 and it's, it's
remarkable the, the speed at

636
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,760
which things were built, put
together, you know, put on a

637
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,840
ship and send is sort of mind
blowing.

638
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:35,920
And you just really wonder
whether you can do something

639
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,680
like that today.
But what was it like, you know,

640
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:42,600
to at a board level, obviously
there was some, some brushes as

641
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,000
well when markets got tight.
What how did you sort of see

642
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,400
your role there?
Can you sort of speak to the

643
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,920
experience overall in that sort
of entrepreneurial culture that

644
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,680
they have?
Well, look very interesting and

645
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,240
very exciting.
No, no question about that from

646
00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:00,320
2008.
And we, we, we were back in 2008

647
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,560
just 5 minutes ago and it was a
pretty tough time, right?

648
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:08,840
So, so I came on the board then
as a non executive director and

649
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,920
I spent eight or nine years
there all the way through to

650
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,600
vice chairman and, and it was a,
it was a, you know, challenging

651
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,200
time, but remember, China was
still growing and growing very

652
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,680
fast, right?
So yes, there was the GFC and

653
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,840
that impacted every country on
the, on the planet, But but

654
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:34,120
China came back very, very
strongly and FMG was growing at

655
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,440
the time.
FMG was dedicated pretty much

656
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,920
entirely at that time to the
China market and it and it was,

657
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:48,080
you know, pretty adverse
conditions in terms of the

658
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,680
competitiveness of the industry
at that time.

659
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,880
But very good support from
China, very good support from

660
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,880
all of the customers in that
part of the world to be able to

661
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,680
continue to grow the business
now.

662
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:08,400
And, and, and Andrew just an
amazing entrepreneur, amazing

663
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,760
vision and, and foresight and an
amazing Australian really the

664
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,520
way he's been able to build that
business.

665
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,840
But, but also same, same in
terms of teams.

666
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,800
We're talking about teams a bit
bit earlier.

667
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,800
I mean, people in that team
would apart from Andrew, which

668
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,480
is just amazing.
Nevada Power as the, as the CEO,

669
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:35,680
Peter MERS as the development
director, Stephen Pearce as the,

670
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,600
as the CFO.
So just a terrific group of

671
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:41,640
people at that senior management
level.

672
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,320
And then then the board, you
know, you've got the people of

673
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:50,760
the of the capability of Ian
Burstyn, of of Herb Elliott,

674
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,240
Elizabeth Gaines, Mark Barnabas.
So these people just fantastic.

675
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:58,360
And the and it was.
It was also.

676
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,200
A very clear focus, Jonas, This
is, you know, this, this is what

677
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:04,480
we're going to do.
Well, I know.

678
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,200
You know, we're in these these
tenements and these mines.

679
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:09,920
Here's the vision.
These are the things that we're

680
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,600
going to do over this period of
of time.

681
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,560
We've got a.
Very good market position and

682
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,600
we're we've got very good
teamwork and we've got very good

683
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:26,800
culture and we will move at the
speed of light, if not faster if

684
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,280
we have to.
And that was the that was the

685
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,200
type of culture that that was
had.

686
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,200
And we're able to do it now.
You know, you've got to have a

687
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,360
bit of luck along the way.
Of course, you've got to have

688
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,720
the wind behind you at at
certain times, but we're able to

689
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:43,520
bounce.
We're able to get through some

690
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:48,600
of those difficult times and of
course build it is whatever the.

691
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:54,840
Number is the $50 billion, a
$100 billion company you know

692
00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:00,480
from, you know, small icons.
So you're not sort of sitting

693
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:06,280
still at the same time you're.
Building EMR 2011, 2012 Start

694
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,480
raising that first fund.
What?

695
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,120
What is fundraising for a mining
private equity group?

696
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,200
There wasn't many of them at the
time.

697
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,760
There's still not too many of
them.

698
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,440
What was that like?
Well, look, again, never simple,

699
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,360
never easy, but you've got to
have the the right group of

700
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,960
people, you've got to be going
to the right markets and you've

701
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:31,360
got to have a good sort of, if
you like vision, a culture and

702
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,520
pipeline, you've got to have a
good pipeline of things that you

703
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,520
are looking at that you've got
an option on or something that

704
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,200
you've done a lot of work on to
be able to show people that

705
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,360
these are the things that that
we want to get on with.

706
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,240
You know, so doesn't mean you
have to do all of them, but you

707
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,560
want to be able to show them all
of that.

708
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,080
And and of course I think we
were coming off during that

709
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:59,560
early part of the 2000 and 10s
there that sort of second decade

710
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:05,320
we're coming off, you know, the
oil and gas business in the US

711
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,600
was going very well.
Most of our limited partners

712
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,120
were American limited partners.
So that's where most of the

713
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,760
capital came from at the that
direct capital they had a

714
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:19,840
surplus from.
Oil and gas, they're looking to

715
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:22,040
get into mining.
They didn't have a lot of mining

716
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,160
exposure.
They're very familiar with the

717
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,080
private equity model, whether it
was oil and gas or or other

718
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,680
things.
So, you know, again, we were

719
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:36,480
good timing, good luck and a
very, very good pitch pack and a

720
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,520
very good team of people with a
good strong track record.

721
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,960
Jones.
They, they were the sort of the

722
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,640
key features, if you like, and a
very clear focus on those things

723
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,240
that we wanted to invest in.
You know, we didn't want to be

724
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:54,080
all things to all people.
We wanted to focus on the, you

725
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,760
know, the copper, the gold, the
base and precious metals in that

726
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,320
area.
We wanted to focus on

727
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,720
metallurgical coal as part of
the whole steel business.

728
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,840
And we wanted to focus on
potash, which was as part of the

729
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:14,640
whole food, you know, fertiliser
dynamic, thematic dynamic, you

730
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,960
know, long term type of thing.
So, so a focus, a vision, good

731
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:25,160
clear people, good track record
and I and and great networking

732
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,800
and relationships, particularly
in the Asian region where where

733
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,360
the growth was and continues to
be.

734
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,360
So you, you mentioned good
timing there.

735
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,600
And that's, that's a really
interesting one because you

736
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,520
know, you're, you raised
ultimately 3 funds now and you

737
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,600
know, the timing is different at
each point.

738
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:47,520
And this is one of the
critiques, if you like, of, of

739
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,200
mining private equity is that
you have to get the timing

740
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,280
right.
It makes the repeatability hard,

741
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,320
but the timing, you know, like
you said, didn't that turn out

742
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:57,840
quite good.
You picked up a lot of assets in

743
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:03,680
that sort of 151617 period when
commodity markets were, you know

744
00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:07,800
in in the doldrums a bit.
How do you think about repeating

745
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,480
that given, you know, a lot of
it's dependent on the cycles of

746
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,680
the commodities?
Yes, well, again.

747
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:17,400
The usual story, never simple,
never easy.

748
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,400
All the usual risks are sort of
available to you.

749
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,000
All the pitfalls and and and
risks of our industry, if you

750
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,760
like and cyclicity and
volatility, all of those things

751
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:34,480
are sort of available to you and
and it's impossible to get the

752
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,160
timing absolutely right.
So you know, but but as I say,

753
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,200
as long as you've.
Got that that strength.

754
00:43:41,240 --> 00:43:44,000
Of your people and background
and experience.

755
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:48,280
And and focus and persistence
is, is another part of that,

756
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,200
right?
I mean, if you miss it, if you

757
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:55,840
miss it 1, you know, cycle or
year, then you have to, you

758
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,040
know, have to have sufficient
continuity and longevity to be

759
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,160
able to pick it up next time
around.

760
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,880
So I think I think good.
Assets and good people will

761
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,960
survive all of that.
So you've got to, you've got to

762
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:14,880
stick with that thematic and,
and be persistent about it type

763
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,760
of thing.
So again, use your story, you've

764
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,200
actually got to get out there.
You got to sell your wares, you

765
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,920
got to spend all of that time
telling people about your story

766
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,400
and the, and the rewards are
there for sure.

767
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,360
You know, so you can't get
absolutely everything right,

768
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,680
That's for sure.
As I say, you need some good

769
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:39,160
luck as well as some good
timing, but it's it's usually.

770
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:45,520
Lots of very good hard work that
actually sees sees off

771
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,680
everything.
So I want to talk about a number

772
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,320
of the deals you've now done.
So in that in that period you

773
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,160
picked up Kestrel, It's the
first one I'm keen to talk about

774
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,840
Queensland cooking coal asset.
A lot has happened since you you

775
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,400
picked that up in that period.
You know, the most, you know,

776
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,320
the stand out feature to me is
the change in royalty regime in

777
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,480
Queensland.
How do you how do you think

778
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,240
about that new set and the
government sort of, you know,

779
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,200
changing the goal posts if you
like?

780
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,760
Yes, OK.
Well, look, Kestrel was a, a Rio

781
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,480
Tinto asset.
So we, we, we knew of course Rio

782
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:26,720
Tinto obviously and we knew the
asset we wanted to get involved

783
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:32,160
in metallurgical coal.
We, we knew that when, when one

784
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,360
of the bigger companies is
looking to sell over, over a

785
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,720
period of time, well, you know,
you know that some of these

786
00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:43,640
assets will, will just not get
the capital, they won't get the

787
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,920
attention, they won't get the
management and so on.

788
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,240
So it's a, in a way, it's a bit
of a happy hunting ground for

789
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,760
people like ourselves so that
we're private equity or building

790
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,280
this or that, that.
So you can you maintain that

791
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,240
those relationships and
obviously pay the right price

792
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,360
then then you can see
significant upside there.

793
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,040
And and we saw that in terms of
it had a very long life.

794
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,120
So you're not dealing with
something that was all going to

795
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,440
be over in the next four or five
years, very long life you have

796
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,360
to 25 and much, much beyond that
years.

797
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,360
So you had time to do the work
and we saw that the capability

798
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,640
of the team, the capability of
the equipment and and the

799
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:30,520
market, if you like, for that
particular call was in very good

800
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,600
shape.
So all of those things we saw

801
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,040
and that's why we got involved
and we were able to increase

802
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,120
production, reduce costs.
I mean, we're not a, we're not a

803
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,840
slash and burn, slash burn and
churn type firm.

804
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,680
You know, you the best way to
increase or to reduce costs is,

805
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,360
is increased volume that'll get
the that'll get the unit cost

806
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:57,520
down, so to speak.
So, so it was actually very

807
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,400
successful from that perspective
and, and still is and, and

808
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,360
operating very well doesn't mean
you don't go go through a few

809
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,920
humps and bumps along the way.
The bump, the bump that you

810
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:14,400
refer to in terms of royalty
rates going up very

811
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,720
significantly, definitely an
issue.

812
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:21,400
And, and you've only got to look
at the charts from whether it's

813
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:27,560
BHP or Anglo in the, in the
public domain to see the sort of

814
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:32,440
imposition that, that royalty is
in terms of their all in

815
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,880
sustaining costs.
You know, it's, it's one thing

816
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,880
to have your, you know, your
people and your, your labour and

817
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,120
your equipment and the energy
that you need.

818
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,000
And they're the remain operating
costs, if you like.

819
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:49,240
And on top of that, you've got a
very, very, very high royalty

820
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:51,840
regime at this time.
Of course, we're going to be

821
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:53,280
paying royalties wherever we
are.

822
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,440
There's not, not an issue, but
you know, this is a, this is a

823
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:03,240
serious imposition.
And well, you've, what do you

824
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:04,800
do?
I mean, at City Hall at the end

825
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:09,440
of the day, of course, you, you
go there and, and present and,

826
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,480
and represent in terms of what
it can and it can't do.

827
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,680
But you know what that really
can and can't do.

828
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,240
But at the end of the day,
that's the regulator and you got

829
00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:22,080
to follow them.
You got to follow the regular.

830
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:26,960
So what it puts the weights back
on you than to, you know, drive

831
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:32,520
your, your cost base, you know,
down to increase your volumes

832
00:48:33,240 --> 00:48:37,360
and, and probably to look at
other not, not so much other

833
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,000
commodities, but if you want to
remain in that commodity, look

834
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,520
at other destinations, you know,
that have suddenly have become

835
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:48,400
more competitive because of the
sort of fiscal regime has

836
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,560
changed.
So I've not been a rambling

837
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:55,280
answer there to that question on
on, on Kestrel and royalties.

838
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,800
But I should say that is a, it's
a package operation that's one

839
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,920
of the best, most productive
long wall, underground long wall

840
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:08,640
operations in not in not only in
the Bowen Basin in Queensland,

841
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,480
but in the world.
So, you know, we're very proud.

842
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:13,760
So how do you think about
selling it then?

843
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,200
Well, we are private equity.
So at the end of the day, one

844
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,520
way or another, you know, we
need to, we need to sell, we

845
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:27,560
need to, you know, transition
out if you like it at some point

846
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,800
in time.
So the so the funds that we

847
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,200
have.
Is is not permanent capital,

848
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,560
it's 10 year capital with with
extensions, I mean with with

849
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:41,240
your LP shareholder approval you
can extend but but you don't.

850
00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:44,040
Really want to extend?
You want to be able to get

851
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:48,240
involved in an asset.
Make your improvements and then

852
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,080
and then ultimately get out.
So that's, that's what we that's

853
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,000
what we prefer to do.
And and there'll be a time

854
00:49:56,360 --> 00:50:00,920
coming for Kestrel.
So to, to move to another asset

855
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:05,120
rule, Bombay is a copper asset
in Zambia that you picked up a

856
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:09,800
number of years ago, since sold
out a big state in conjunction

857
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,320
with cobalt metals who are doing
something a bit interesting

858
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,360
with, with AI trying to improve
their expiration targeting and

859
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,360
these sorts of things.
Is that something you've spent a

860
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:21,360
long time looking at
understanding?

861
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,880
Yes, well, we've actually sold
it 100%.

862
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:30,960
So just just coming back, just
Jonas just coming back to the

863
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,600
Bambi, the we.
We got involved there 5-6

864
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:42,080
something years ago in Zambia,
always thought Zambia, Zambia

865
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:46,080
terrific place by the way, in
the copper belt on the, the,

866
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:51,480
the, the, the, the junction
there the border between Zambia

867
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,480
and the DRC.
So you know the world famous.

868
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:57,880
Copper belt people been mining.
There for a very long period.

869
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,360
Of time La Bambi was wasn't the
biggest mine, but wasn't the

870
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,640
smallest mine in the copper belt
was owned by.

871
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,080
Valet and African Rainbow, they
wanted to get out.

872
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,640
They that that particular
venture wasn't working out for

873
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,160
them.
We saw it as an opportunity not

874
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,840
only to get that existing mine
going well, in other words,

875
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,760
hitting targets, getting the
drum beat and beating out.

876
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:26,840
It's 30 to 40,000 tonnes per
annum of copper, but also to do

877
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:30,800
the work on the deeper what we
call the extension ore body.

878
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,520
We're talking several 100
million tonnes of very high

879
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:36,320
grade copper.
It hadn't been drilled out.

880
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,600
No real studies have been done
on it.

881
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:44,240
We saw that was an opportunity
to grow very significant value.

882
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:50,440
That extension ore body
ultimately the was renamed the

883
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:56,560
Mingomba Ore body and that's now
owned by Cobalt Metals out of

884
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:01,880
the US and and ZCCM.
The government company there.

885
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:07,800
And the mine so that, that we've
split the, the project from the

886
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:12,600
existing mine itself, the, the
mine itself is now owned mainly

887
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,960
by JCSX, the contractor, the
mining contractor there.

888
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,200
The game we know very well
they've been working with us for

889
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,160
years and years out there
between them.

890
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:28,040
And again, ZCCM, the government
entity is also a shareholder,

891
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:29,640
minority shareholder and that
so.

892
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,920
So you've got the mine.
Sort of 8020, something like

893
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,600
that JCHXZZZM and then you've
got the Mingomba rule body,

894
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:43,040
which again is 8020 cobalt
metals, cobalt metals, very good

895
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,880
people.
They've done an amazing job with

896
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:51,400
the exploration technology, you
know, badging as as AI.

897
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,760
They've raised significant funds
and, and they've, they've,

898
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,800
they've paid us for that project
for the Mingomba.

899
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:06,160
Project and they're working very
hard drilling it out getting

900
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:10,120
getting increasing resources,
increasing reserves, getting all

901
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,440
of the relevant studies done and
growing very significant value.

902
00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:14,840
Yes, it's a.
It's a.

903
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,440
Bit deeper orebody there starts
at about 1000 metres or

904
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:22,600
thereabouts, but very, very high
grade and in the copper belt.

905
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,840
So you've got a got established
infrastructure workforce, a

906
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,640
social licence.
So we provided them with

907
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:33,280
effectively with the social
licence to operate there given

908
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,280
the all of the work we did at
the mine and and that particular

909
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,680
project.
So that they are pretty well

910
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,480
good to go.
They've still got work to do

911
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,760
there and getting the studies
done, but then that mine will

912
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:50,320
definitely ultimately be built.
So to, to bring us a bit closer

913
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,600
to home, Ravenswood is another
asset you picked up not, not all

914
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,720
that long ago in, in 2020 from
Resolute in a, in a consortium

915
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:01,920
to buy off Resolute that's now
had, you know, four years of

916
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,920
investment output has expanded
significantly at the asset.

917
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,040
And it's, you know, in more
broader terms, not a bad time

918
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,440
to, to own a gold mine.
How do you think about selling

919
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,400
that one?
Is this one that's going to, you

920
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,920
know, only play out in a number
of years time or is that

921
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,840
something in the back of your
mind already?

922
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,400
Well, look, Ravenswood was, has
been.

923
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,360
You know, good success story.
No, no question about that.

924
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,240
But again, the usual story with
these things, Jones, nothing

925
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:32,720
simple, nothing's easy.
Everything has its humps and

926
00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:36,800
bumps along the way.
So as to speak in our industry

927
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,520
tends to follow us.
Around so yes, we bought it

928
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:47,560
during COVID and and we to end
of 2019, so 2020 yes, we closed

929
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,920
it.
And we spent these last four

930
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:55,320
years and several $100 million,
you know, expanding and

931
00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:00,120
improving that operation up to,
you know, well north of 200,000

932
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:05,080
oz per annum capable.
Queensland's largest gold mine.

933
00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:09,080
In fact, we've, we've created it
there just to the South of

934
00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:12,040
Townsville going going back into
history.

935
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:16,200
We bought it from Resolute and,
and you know, various payments

936
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,240
over a period of time, some of
which are are still to come to

937
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:22,800
Resolute.
Resolute was very, very focused

938
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:27,640
on West Africa doing the London
listing and so on.

939
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,520
So Ravenswood wasn't going to
get any capital.

940
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,880
And so we saw it as an
opportunity to inject Syria's

941
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,720
capital and and grow that
business.

942
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:40,920
And we got it right.
In terms of gold, clearly, you

943
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,840
know, I mean, good as gold, as
they say.

944
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:48,240
I was talking a bit earlier
about the early 2000s when we

945
00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:51,560
were looking, we sold gold at
$220.00 an ounce.

946
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,400
That is now more than 10 times
that, you know, 20 years later.

947
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,280
So that's a terrific, terrific
return.

948
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,240
Gold is always going to be in
long strong demand.

949
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,480
You know, it's a commodity, it's
a currency, it's a store of

950
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:07,200
value.
It's a hedge against

951
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:11,160
geopolitical and financial
uncertainties and so on.

952
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,280
So you want to be as long as
strong as you possibly can in

953
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,200
gold.
At the same time, of course we

954
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:21,280
are a private equity firm.
So we need to actually continue

955
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:27,680
to turn over assets so we can go
again back to the market and

956
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,320
look to get another fund so as
to speak.

957
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:36,400
So if the, if the asset is at
it's where we where we wanted to

958
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:40,080
drive it to in terms of volume,
in terms of costs, in terms of

959
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:44,440
exploration upside and and
potential and so on, then it's,

960
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,600
you know, then of course it's,
it's available.

961
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,240
I mean, actually whether it's
available or not, we've got

962
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:54,240
plenty of people join us
knocking on the door looking to

963
00:56:54,240 --> 00:56:58,520
buy it because it is, it's a
quality operation in terms of

964
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:03,000
tonnes grade resources,
reserves, all in sustaining

965
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,360
costs.
And it's right there just to the

966
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:07,400
South of Townsville.
I mean, it's not in the middle

967
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:10,320
of absolute nowhere type of
thing.

968
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,240
It's a really good place to
operate anyway, That's that's

969
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,520
that's how we think about
Ravenswood at this time.

970
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:22,680
So another group of assets you
picked up in that mid 2010

971
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:28,360
period was Capricorn Copper
Golden Grove asset out in, in

972
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,720
Chile as well.
These, you know, the, the two

973
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:36,360
Aussie assets come together in
what's now 29 medals ASX listed.

974
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,000
Obviously people will be
familiar with that one.

975
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,280
I want to dive into the, the
exit sort of strategy.

976
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:48,720
So that was listed in 2021 and
EMA maintained a, a decent stake

977
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,240
in the business, which it still
holds to this day.

978
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,600
How is the sort of thinking
there changed?

979
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,680
Would you do anything different
with with hindsight?

980
00:57:58,120 --> 00:57:59,160
Look.
Yeah.

981
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:04,240
The, the, the vision there was
to take those 3 assets, put them

982
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:08,480
together and form 29 metals.
We thought that was the best

983
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:12,960
strategy at the time in terms of
in terms of exit, so.

984
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:16,680
You've got Golden Grove
operating in WA, you've got,

985
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,680
you've got Capricorn Copper
operating in Queensland, you've

986
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:23,600
got a Chilean asset Chile, you
know, still the world's largest

987
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:29,120
premier copper producing
countries, a great, great region

988
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:31,360
with plenty of upside over
there.

989
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,760
So, so we thought the, the, the
whole would be better than the

990
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,400
sum of the parts, if you like,
in terms of putting all of that

991
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,120
together.
And, and the market was calling

992
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:45,800
for, you know, publicly listed
copper as and still is, you

993
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,680
know, still still calling for
them.

994
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,400
OK.
So we, we thought the best path

995
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:53,520
at that time was, was to do
that.

996
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,800
And, and generally speaking that
is that's true, right.

997
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:02,400
If you've got you will tend to
get a better rating for a number

998
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,960
of assets rather than just a
single mining operation.

999
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,080
So we put it together, we listed
it at $2.00.

1000
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:12,520
We returned some money to our
investors.

1001
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:16,600
We left some money in the, in
the company to continue to grow

1002
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,920
the, the company so as to speak.
So we listed at $2.00 per share.

1003
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:25,640
It actually went it was very
successful got done the the

1004
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:31,880
stock price went to three
dollars 2330 something and and

1005
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,960
today it's back in the 40 cent
zone.

1006
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:38,280
So what went wrong there?
You know how does all that work?

1007
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:42,560
Well, you know markets come off
clearly, but we really

1008
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,840
underperformed in a couple of
areas. 11 was effectively

1009
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:51,760
external forces there.
We had, we had a severe rainfall

1010
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,720
event up at in Queensland north
of Mount Isa at Capricorn Copper

1011
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,880
that took on more water than you
can actually ever believe.

1012
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:04,240
Most much of it is still there
and we were looking to release

1013
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:06,720
that over, over a period of
time.

1014
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:11,560
You and you can't really operate
in any way, shape or form near,

1015
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,120
near capacity when you've still
got that water there.

1016
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,680
You've got to treat it, you've
got to release it so it doesn't

1017
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:21,480
happen.
Overnight, so not, not a simple

1018
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,760
matter and of course your many
of your treatment facilities,

1019
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,840
whether it's a ponding or
whether it's the water treatment

1020
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:33,480
plant underwater, you know, so
the damage there's the damage is

1021
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,320
still to be repaired if if you
like.

1022
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:39,080
So we've got to get that got to
get that done.

1023
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,520
So that, that has been a, you
know, that's been a very serious

1024
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:44,920
blow for the company and we
couldn't have done much about

1025
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:46,680
that, right.
We had all of the diversion

1026
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:51,120
channels in place.
We, we provided for one in you

1027
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:55,560
know, 75 or 100 year events and
we got one that was one in 250

1028
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,240
year event type of thing.
So we were, we're in trouble

1029
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:00,800
there.
And and in WA I have to say we

1030
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,280
there was some underperformance
at the Golden Grove operation as

1031
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,880
well.
So that was more in our control.

1032
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,840
But you will remember during
those during that time you

1033
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:15,400
mentioned 2021-2022 you got, you
got iron ore going gangbusters,

1034
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,600
you've got nickel going very
well, you've got a lithium about

1035
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:20,560
to start and you've got gold
going very well.

1036
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:27,720
So WA was was hot the trot in
terms of the market for, you

1037
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:31,640
know, development activities,
mining activities, fly in, fly

1038
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,360
out people and so on.
So, so with a seat that single

1039
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:42,680
operation there in the West, you
know, our, our costs were up and

1040
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:46,280
our volumes were down.
So therefore, but we've we've

1041
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:51,800
recovered brilliantly since then
and now in much better shape at

1042
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:56,160
golden growth and a very good
plan for Capricorn cop.

1043
01:01:56,160 --> 01:02:00,800
So bit of a long story there,
Jonas, about 29 medals, but

1044
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:06,800
those two Australian operations
and so on back on back on solid

1045
01:02:07,280 --> 01:02:11,880
ground and and footing and and
the Chilean acid really not a

1046
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:17,640
lot has happened at the smaller
end of town there with with Red

1047
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,280
Hill.
So to, to go to Europe just

1048
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:24,400
briefly, W Cumbria Coal, W
Cumbria Mining is a company

1049
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,760
you're involved with as well
that's had a sort of back and

1050
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:30,360
forth, back and forth with the,
the government there.

1051
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,800
And you know, a pretty big
ruling has come out just

1052
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,880
recently there.
Not so specific to that, but how

1053
01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:39,680
do you think about mining in
Europe?

1054
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,120
Are you, you know, very cautious
of going, Obviously you got

1055
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:47,120
interests in other parts of
Europe at the moment, but has

1056
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,640
that kind of put the the nail in
the coffin for how you think

1057
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,880
about allocating money in that
kind of part of the world?

1058
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:56,920
Well, it hasn't put the nail in,
in the coffin or obviously

1059
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:02,360
always open to, you know,
opportunities and wherever they

1060
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:05,040
are.
And you have to roll with the,

1061
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:09,320
the punches, of course.
And at the end of the day,

1062
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:11,160
you've got to follow the
regulator.

1063
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:13,760
As I say, we, we, we, we do
three things.

1064
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,160
You know, we're business people.
So we follow the market, we

1065
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:19,200
follow the follow the money,
follow the follow the trends.

1066
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:22,760
We follow the regulator because
without doing that, you can't do

1067
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:26,320
anything very much and you
follow best international

1068
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:27,760
practise.
That's what that's where you

1069
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,600
must have that beacon in the
north.

1070
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,120
You must follow those things.
OK.

1071
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:35,920
Now within that, within that,
when you look at a, a project,

1072
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:39,200
wherever it is, whether it's in
the UK or whether it's in

1073
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:44,680
Eastern Europe, Western Europe
and Spain, we're in country or

1074
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:49,880
Africa, you know, or the sands,
you know, wherever you are, you

1075
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:54,000
will always look at well, what
are the tonnes, what's the

1076
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:58,720
grade, what's the quality,
what's the process and what's

1077
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:03,640
the life, what's the cost?
What's the upside?

1078
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:06,680
Is it a stable and secure
domain?

1079
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:11,440
Can we operate here and can you
get out?

1080
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:15,840
In other words, can you exit?
So we talk about a stable and

1081
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:17,960
secure domain.
That's really the question.

1082
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,760
What's the, what are the country
risk type factors here?

1083
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,240
Is that the national government
is the provincial government.

1084
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:26,360
How to how to what are the rules
and what are the regulations?

1085
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,520
What about the workforce?
What about the infrastructure?

1086
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:33,120
What about your social licence?
Can you obtain, retain and

1087
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:36,920
sustain your social licence?
Because without that you might

1088
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,240
as well not show up anywhere,
you know?

1089
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:42,720
So you've got to be, you've got
to be convinced that you can

1090
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:47,920
actually embed yourself with
those local communities, earn

1091
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:51,520
their trust, earn their
confidence, earn their support

1092
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:56,280
and earn their cooperation.
And so they are the key factors.

1093
01:04:58,120 --> 01:04:59,680
Very, very comprehensive.
I like it.

1094
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:03,640
So to, to round out the
conversation, I want to speak

1095
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:05,880
about a few more sort of
contemporary and forward looking

1096
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,960
aspects of mining, specifically
in Australia.

1097
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:13,480
So as we touched on before we
started recording today,

1098
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,680
obviously a big event sort of
happened in, in NSW, perhaps it

1099
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,440
wasn't acknowledged how big you
know, in the, in the happening

1100
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,440
of Earth as it has with the
ramifications of that.

1101
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,520
Obviously I'm speaking about
Mcfillanys and there's been a

1102
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:30,680
few other sort of similar ish
decisions that have been made.

1103
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,720
If you could speak with the the
sort of government officials,

1104
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:40,520
what, what's the sort of the
line of thinking you would tell

1105
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:41,560
them?
Yes.

1106
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:45,320
Well, look and again, I don't
have the, I don't have the

1107
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,480
detail of of some of those
things, but but the, but the

1108
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,960
signals have obviously been
fairly negative.

1109
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:55,840
You'd have to say about that
particularly when you go through

1110
01:05:56,000 --> 01:06:00,400
a long process.
We, we actually don't mind the

1111
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:05,040
industry understands and doesn't
mind going through a lengthy

1112
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:08,120
process, whether whether it's to
do with environmental impact

1113
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:11,120
assessment, whether it's to do
with heritage assessments.

1114
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,040
You know, you, you've got to
follow the regular, you've got

1115
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:18,120
to do your work well.
And, and Australia is absolutely

1116
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:21,640
outstanding at having the people
and the consultants and the

1117
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:23,760
firms and so on to be able to do
that.

1118
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:28,600
We, we, we do that better in
Australia than anywhere in the

1119
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:30,680
world.
And that's why anywhere you go,

1120
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,320
it doesn't matter whether it's
the rainforest of North Sumatra

1121
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:37,520
or the Atacama Desert in, in
Peru, you'll find an Aussie, you

1122
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,960
know, mining engineer or
environmental scientist there

1123
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,360
because we do our work really,
really well.

1124
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,600
What you, what you don't want,
what you prefer not to have are

1125
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:49,800
surprises.
In other words, get to the end

1126
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:52,840
of all of that because a lot of
time, a lot of money, a lot of

1127
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:56,880
effort and find that you get
knocked out for something rather

1128
01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:00,920
and you're not able to redress.
So, so how does, how does that

1129
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:03,200
work?
Well, you know, you've actually

1130
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:07,200
got to stay close, stay in
touch, stay close with all of

1131
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:10,680
those people, all of those
stakeholders during that period

1132
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:15,120
to try and be be sure that there
are no surprises, Jonas, at the

1133
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:17,760
end that that's, that's that's
what you don't want.

1134
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:21,320
The regulatory regime in
Australia is about as good as it

1135
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:24,120
gets in terms of the world.
You want to see some of the

1136
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:27,440
regimes in other, in other
places type of thing.

1137
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:30,880
But it doesn't mean that you
won't have glitches and it

1138
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:34,560
doesn't mean that there isn't
room for improvement in those

1139
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:35,680
things.
And we're talking with

1140
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:41,000
governments and regulators,
state, federal and local all the

1141
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:44,480
time, all the time.
And you saw the other day three

1142
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:48,960
poll operations in NSW got
their, got their extension

1143
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:53,160
permits and so on.
So, you know, and, and our, our,

1144
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:57,200
our business at Ravenswood
always been able to get those

1145
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:58,920
permits.
Our business at Golden Grove

1146
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,480
always been able.
It doesn't mean it's not, you

1147
01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:04,200
know, lots of hard work and time
and so on and so forth.

1148
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:08,600
But you're always, generally
speaking, able to get it because

1149
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:12,640
they tend to be, you know, like
minded people, you know, because

1150
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:14,800
it's because it's a mining
country.

1151
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,200
And because most people in
Australia, as you know, are

1152
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:22,319
highly supportive of mining.
They actually understand what

1153
01:08:22,399 --> 01:08:26,640
what mining per SE and the whole
mining services area and all of

1154
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:29,200
those things that sort of depend
on it and hang off.

1155
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:32,520
It does for the country and will
continue to do.

1156
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:34,880
And we're going to continue to
be busy, Janice.

1157
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,160
That's, that's the, that really
is the point about the, about

1158
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:41,359
the future here.
In terms of the next 10 years,

1159
01:08:41,359 --> 01:08:45,040
20 years, 30 years, we're going
to continue to be busy because

1160
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:48,960
there's long strong demand for
all of the commodities that

1161
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:53,120
we've just been talking about
and the energy transition has

1162
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:57,920
given a boost to them.
That said, it it still does

1163
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:03,160
have, you know, perceived
negative impacts on investing in

1164
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:06,600
mining globally.
You know, Australia is seen as

1165
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:09,000
one of the the sort of safer
jurisdictions.

1166
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:12,000
Now you, you could kind of argue
that less people in the space

1167
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:14,680
makes more opportunity for the
EMR capital.

1168
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:17,560
But ultimately we, we do need a
lot of money coming in to

1169
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:20,000
develop a lot of these assets.
You know, you mentioned before

1170
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:23,080
Chile, some of these assets
require a phenomenal amount of

1171
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:25,520
money all over the sort of
world.

1172
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:29,720
Does part of it concern you at
all that it might put off

1173
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:32,840
capital that's sort of needed to
develop these assets?

1174
01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:35,600
Definitely.
So there's no question about

1175
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:37,720
that.
The the concerning, you know,

1176
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:41,840
you regulations are increasing
and we understand that in terms

1177
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:46,439
of population increasing, we
understand that in terms of you

1178
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:48,760
know.
People's, people's expectations

1179
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:53,120
are are increasing, if you like,
all of the time, as I say, we,

1180
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:56,560
we never mind actually going
through the work and responding

1181
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,120
to all of those sorts of things.
It just it just takes.

1182
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:02,680
Takes longer it's and it's a bit
harder.

1183
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:05,280
So it takes longer to get
permitted and so on and so

1184
01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:05,880
forth.
OK.

1185
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:07,120
So we're going to have to do
that.

1186
01:10:07,120 --> 01:10:09,640
Doesn't matter whether you're
here by the way or in in

1187
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:13,520
Indonesia or Chile or or China.
For that matter.

1188
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:17,360
It's just going to simply take
you longer to get permitted.

1189
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:18,880
So we're happy to put up with
that.

1190
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:23,920
So, So what it makes you do of
course is focus on those, those

1191
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:28,520
commodities that that you know
are already in some form of

1192
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:32,800
short supply, if you like, or
challenges to supply because

1193
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:34,800
there are more challenges on the
way.

1194
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:40,360
And that's why we like very much
copper, we like very much gold,

1195
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:47,120
we like other base metals and we
like metallurgical coal because

1196
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:50,600
there's no substitute for that
in the in the steel industry.

1197
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:54,240
And we do like the fertiliser
space too, expanding

1198
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:58,680
populations, increasing diets
and and so on.

1199
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:02,160
So there'll be good strong
demand there.

1200
01:11:02,440 --> 01:11:05,080
So, so does it.
So your question was, well, does

1201
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:09,000
it mean that you go to, you're
always looking at other places,

1202
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:13,520
always looking whether it's
Australia or Africa or South

1203
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:16,040
America, and so always looking
at opportunities there.

1204
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:19,200
Canada, we're looking at a
number of opportunities in

1205
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:21,360
Canada at the moment.
What do you want?

1206
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:24,960
You want you want access to
land, you want access to those

1207
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,440
projects, you want access to
people and you must have access

1208
01:11:28,440 --> 01:11:32,600
to capital And and you know,
whether it's the the public

1209
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:36,160
markets and there's no better
public market for capital,

1210
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:39,560
particularly for the smaller
guys than the than Australia,

1211
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:44,840
because, you know, the ASX
terrific platform, world class

1212
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:47,720
platform, doesn't doesn't mean
it doesn't have as nuances

1213
01:11:47,720 --> 01:11:53,480
either, so to speak, but a but a
very good proven platform and

1214
01:11:53,480 --> 01:11:58,040
and has and has actually been
very good over the past 1015,

1215
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:01,760
thirty years in terms of being
able to access capital.

1216
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,400
But you also must be able to
access the debt markets.

1217
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:08,480
And and that's where some of
them are sort of open and close.

1218
01:12:08,480 --> 01:12:11,320
Some banks are saying, well, we
won't lend to this, won't lend

1219
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:14,360
to that or out of mining, so on.
So that's always a bit of a

1220
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:19,120
disappointment, Jonas, when when
those markets actually close to

1221
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:22,200
you.
But you know, it just makes you

1222
01:12:22,440 --> 01:12:24,280
go a bit harder with those that
are open.

1223
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:27,680
So you mentioned the the
commodities you're interested in

1224
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:30,800
last question out of out of the
four, you know, potash, cooking

1225
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:35,560
coal, gold and copper, what is
the the one you'd pick if you

1226
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:39,840
could just for a say fund for
VMR capital, there could be one

1227
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,080
focus.
Copper and gold.

1228
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:45,320
So the the single, the single
commodity copper and gold.

1229
01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:48,480
They come together at times so
it works.

1230
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:53,680
Copper is red gold, of course.
So now look, I, I think copper

1231
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:57,320
as an industrial metal, you, you
can, you can actually in a way

1232
01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:02,560
prices in terms of, you know,
long strong demand challenges to

1233
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:06,640
supply great diversity of, of
demand and getting a boost from

1234
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:10,720
the energy transition and as
getting a boost from AI, you

1235
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:12,600
know, just think of those data
centres.

1236
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:14,880
Think, think of the.
Of of of the.

1237
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:19,640
Power of the energy, there's got
to go into AI and everything

1238
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:22,600
needs everything needs copper
one one way or another.

1239
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:26,040
So that that's definitely a
pick.

1240
01:13:26,320 --> 01:13:30,200
But never forget gold.
In fact, we think that gold

1241
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:35,880
we're we're looking to see gold
Jonas as a critical metal.

1242
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:39,040
We think it's critical that
everybody should have some in

1243
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:42,600
their portfolio.
Beautiful, thanks for sharing

1244
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:44,240
your insights, your experience
and your time.

1245
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:47,200
Bye.
It's lovely to be here.

1246
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:50,640
Bloody great work JD, very
insightful.

1247
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:52,000
All the thanks to.
Journey.

1248
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:54,440
Owen for for coming on.
What a journey it was indeed,

1249
01:13:54,440 --> 01:13:56,960
mate.
He wouldn't have come on if MMS

1250
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:58,560
weren't here.
Cornerstone Sponsor.

1251
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:00,320
No, and I think.
He actually said that.

1252
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:02,200
You could say the exact same for
Grounded.

1253
01:14:02,440 --> 01:14:03,800
Yeah.
Cross boundary Energy.

1254
01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:08,280
Sandvik ground Support.
CRE Insurance, Greenland's

1255
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:11,880
Equipment.
K Drill, Australian earthworks

1256
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:13,280
and haulage you could say the
same.

1257
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:14,760
For Spark you could say the
same.

1258
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:16,800
For all of them.
And MTTS as well.

1259
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:18,440
We can't even get a bit out
there.

1260
01:14:18,440 --> 01:14:20,400
Absolutely better.
Absolute gurus.

1261
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:22,160
Thank you very much for that,
JD.

1262
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:23,960
Thanks Alan.
And who to room?

1263
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:26,120
Money miners enjoy the weekend.
Have a great weekend money

1264
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:29,680
miners.
Information contained in this

1265
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:32,440
episode of Money of Mine is of
general nature only and does not

1266
01:14:32,440 --> 01:14:35,080
take into account the
objectives, financial situation

1267
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:37,120
or needs of any particular
person.

1268
01:14:37,440 --> 01:14:40,480
Before making any investment
decision, you should consult

1269
01:14:40,480 --> 01:14:43,520
with your financial advisor and
consider how appropriate the

1270
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:47,200
advice is to your objectives,
financial situation and needs.