Australia's Power Grid Is About to Break (Matt Fist)

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Nothing excites me more than
when I bring up an analyst or

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something and I've done a couple
of days of work on a commodity

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or a company and they say to me,
no one's called me about that

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sock in years.
The other guy on the buy side

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who's looking at this sector or
sock, I just love.

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That sort of tells you where you
are in the hype cycle.

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JD, you and I just got back from
from a brief trip to Melbourne

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and it was absolutely freezing,
undeniably utterly freezing.

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But other than that, it was
insightful because we got to

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speak with some some wonderful,
wonderful, insightful

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individuals in our resources
sector.

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We sure did.
First and foremost, Matthew Fist

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of Firetrout.
So this should be a great

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conversation.
I'm sure the money miners will

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get a heap out of it.
Fisty, as you'll hear in the

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conversation, is just back from
the Macquarie Conference,

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speaking to a whole host of
different companies.

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So he's got a technical
background in the industry.

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He covers a whole lot more than
just the resources space.

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But we focus with what we know
and what we love, the resources

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names, and there's no shortage
of things to talk about.

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So we'll cut to our conversation
with Matthew Fist.

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We're here with the Genesis Bull
Fire Trails.

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Matt Fist, thank you for joining
us, mate.

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We've got Yeah, we're very
excited for this hour to chat.

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You've been on the podcast a
couple a couple times in the

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past and there's been no
shortage of things to talk

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about.
And today is no different.

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We're hot on the heels of a big
deal in the gold space, so why

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not kick it off with with that
one?

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What's your thoughts on the Volt
Regis deal?

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Yeah, certainly, certainly very
topical, many conversations

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about that over the past few
days with with shareholders and

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investment bankers.
I, I don't mind the deal, but in

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mining I prefer to see deals or
any any, any sector for that

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matter, prefer to see deals with
synergies because that's really

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where the value is created.
And I think when you have to get

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to page 16 of the slide deck to
find the word synergy and

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there's.
No map there, thankfully.

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There's no map.
No, that's.

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True.
They're not trying to say

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anything.
It's just, yeah.

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Yeah, Yeah.
I mean, the tax synergies are

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well and good, but you know,
physical synergies are better.

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And yeah, so yeah, I couldn't
see the merits of it.

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But also I think there's there's
probably better deals that could

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have been done.
We were just chatting obviously

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before we, we started recording
about some of the conversations

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that I've had.
I've had a couple of Vault

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shareholders reach out to me
over the past 48 hours and, and

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sort of, yeah, express some of
their views.

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And I think potentially they
were looking forward to having a

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bit of Genesis script and.
And it may look like that

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they're not going to get that
anymore.

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So because.
It makes more sense for Genesis

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to build their own meal, right?
I I think there's definitely,

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there's definitely more
industrial logic for Genesis and

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and the King of the hills asset
to get together for sure.

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But the problem is the rest of
the portfolio, right?

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And so?
It's not king of the hills

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that's the issue.
Like the the the reserves like 5

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years out.
You don't think I don't know, I

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haven't spoken directly to
Genesis guys about it and they

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probably wouldn't tell me the
truth.

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But you know, there was a lot of
value in in the vault share

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price for the non king of the
hill assets and they probably

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don't really fit in the Genesis
portfolio.

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And so if you were looking to
structure something else, I

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logically think that would be a
bit of a sticking point.

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You know, where do you put that
asset sort of like a a stub

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company.
Yeah.

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It's yeah, it's a remarkable one
because we, we the Genesis that

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point he was talking about the
battle flee and we're really

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holding out and hoping for an
eventual marriage of Vault and

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and Genesis.
But I, I'm with you.

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I think the likelihood that's
probably probably on the lower

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side now.
Like, you know, I don't think, I

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don't think Genesis is going to
come.

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And yeah, I mean, the messaging
is probably that they're

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preoccupied because the scheme
with with magnetic is still

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ongoing.
But but you would have thought

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that if that was a realistic
option on the table, then it

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would have been pursued.
I'd imagine so, yeah, but I mean

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all these things come down to
timing ratios at a certain point

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in time personalities.
So yeah, we'll we'll wait and

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see what happens, but I'm not
holding my breath for for an

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interloper to come are.
You still outrageously bullish

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on Genesis?
I am, I am, yeah.

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I was, I was pretty surprised at
the timing of the the Lady Julie

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transaction or the magnetic
transaction.

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But I think that is a good
example of proper synergies in a

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mining deal, right, where you're
you acquire an asset and the the

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pit is constrained on one
tenement boundary because you

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are in the other side of the
tenement and you can logically

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then make a bigger pit, get more
answers and create more value.

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I mean, they're the sort of
deals that we love to see in

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mining.
And I think Rao, Matt Nixon and

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the team, they now have a very
good track record of doing those

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sort of deals.
And so, yeah, I think that's

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great.
You look at where they're going

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and the share share price has
been a bit soft lately relative

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to sector, but we're very, very
confident in the outlook.

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It won't surprise you, but they
control now three of the top six

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undeveloped open pit WA gold
projects.

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And in this gold price
environment, you know sort of

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rises or boats I think and
people forget about quality.

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And when you look at the Genesis
portfolio, the quality of the

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assets that they're going to be
bringing into that over the next

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three to four years, we're
really confident that's going to

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drive a lot of per share value
for for shareholders And I'm

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pretty excited about that and
and I can't wait to stick around

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for it.
So, so when you think about

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something like Tower Hill, given
that we can look back at a

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couple years ago from when
they've started to really beat

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the drum on it, how do you think
they've fared on on the

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timeline?
I think they've been pretty

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good, Yeah.
I was having a chat to Matt

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Nixon at the Macquarie
Conference a couple of days ago

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at dinner and yeah, he intimated
to me that it's been pretty a

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laborious process to get that
rail agreement negotiated.

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But they've done a lot of hard
work there now, got that done.

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And as far as I know that
they're still planning for first

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door in FY20 8, if not sooner.
So you know that that's a

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fantastic asset.
And yeah, we can't wait to start

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to see the the impact that it
has on the portfolio.

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I mean, the only reason it
hasn't been mined because it's

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so high graded and and the strip
ratio is so good is because

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there was the rail on there.
So I had to be removed and

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unfortunately they had to go
through a bit of a process to

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get it done, but it's done now.
That's all onwards and upwards.

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And I'm excited to see the
quality of that asset come

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through.
And then what that means for not

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only the production, but I think
the big thing people miss is

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what it means for the cost
profile.

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When you can mine at 1.8 or 1.6,
I think it is from an open pit

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with a decent super ratio right
next to a mill.

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That's that's pretty exciting.
Remember Rail?

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The AGM, he said.
Where's the effect?

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You're not supposed to have a
favorite child, but Tower Hill

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is mine so.
Yeah, well, it's definitely not

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W Australia.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the, the, the

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conference you're, you're,
you're fresh from the Macquarie,

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Macquarie conference big event,
all the fun managers go there in

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Sydney in several days.
Some of the yeah, best access

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you get to to management buys I
like are big takeaways from your

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time there 50.
Yeah, it was, it was a hectic 3

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days.
I just had a had a six hour

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Sydney to Melbourne flight as
well.

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So I'm fresh off that.
So I'm feeling, feeling pretty

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worn out.
But it's always an amazing

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conference.
And I probably only spend about

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20% of my time on mining.
I'm a portfolio manager for the

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whole fund.
So I spent most of my time

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actually seeing, yeah, a lot of
other companies.

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But I mean, the key take away
from the, the, the overall

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conference and I think the
implications for resources

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sector are pretty profound, was
that there's just an explosion

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in terms of data centre demand
happening in Australia at the

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moment being driven by
artificial intelligence.

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And that's it's just got so many
implications across commodities

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and the economy.
I mean, just in the space of two

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weeks and actually at the
conference, there was a GW of

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new capacity signings in
Australia for the data centre

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sector.
And just to sort of wrap some

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numbers around that, the current
sector at the moment is 1.5

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gigawatts.
So there's what, you know, an

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almost doubling of demand based
on what we know, what we know

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today by 20-30.
And that's just the beginning.

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And you look at what that means
for the power grid in terms of

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the commodity intensity there,
what it means for, I think a lot

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of energy commodities globally,
because Australia is not the

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only country saying this.
The reason we're seeing this

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explosion in data centre demand
is because they've literally run

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out of space and power in the US
Australia is a great country to

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build a data centre.
We've got lots of land,

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obviously got lots of renewable
resource and we're very well

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connected with fibre.
And so we're just very simply

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seeing the overflow from the US.
Hyperscale is looking to train

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these AI models coming to
Australia.

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They're also looking at Europe,
parts of Asia as well.

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And if we talk about that one GW
and there's going to be

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multiples of those added over
the next five years, in my view

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that that approximates about 5%
extra electricity demand for the

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East Coast grid.
And so you just think about all

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the implications for that.
We've had almost no growth in

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electricity demand in Australia
for 15 years.

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Suddenly we've we're looking at
electrification of cars, heating

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and cooling.
And then on top of that, we've

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just had, you know, the
magnitude of these contracts

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that I've just described.
I just don't think people

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understand what that means.
I mean, that's $20 billion of

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CapEx just in the data center to
come into the country.

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And so we're really excited
about what that means for a

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number of different commodities
and.

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What were the big winners that
aren't priced in today?

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Well, I mean, there's the
obvious players, yeah, they're

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not the non resources players,
but given there's a mining

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podcast, they'll stick to the
mining.

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I think the you can do energy,
just do anything.

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Oh, sorry.
I've been pretty bullish on

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thermal coal for a while now and
this really solidifies that

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view.
So thermal coal has been in

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decline now for a number of
years.

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We're seeing increased gas
coming into the system.

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Renewables displace operating
power plants.

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And what this potentially means
in our view is that you do see

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that thermal coal power plant
utilisation increase slightly or

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flat line, or at least the the
shallowness of the decline will

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stop.
And that has some very profound

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implications for the thermal
coal market.

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The thermal coal market's 8
billion tons, it's about a

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billion tons of seaborne demand.
And if you get every single

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developed country, you increase
the thermal coal-fired power

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generation by just 1%, you
create 160 million ton deficit

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in the in the thermal coal
market.

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So it doesn't take much globally
if there's a shortage of

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electrons and people start to to
turn back to thermal coal, which

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is already built in many
countries, there's very low

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utilization to have a really big
impact on the thermal coal

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market.
In addition, we've seen

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Indonesia introduce production
caps, you know China is building

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out record amounts of coal
capacity once again.

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So I think it's a market that is
is much fundamentally tighter

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than what the market thinks and
the stocks are not pricing in

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much.
And I think consensus has got a

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fairway to catch up in terms of
pricing when we look at on a

227
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:18,120
three to four year view,
consensus is 105110 dollars a

228
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,040
tonne on Newcastle and and I
think that number probably needs

229
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,640
to be closer to one 35130.
I know you really come at it

230
00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,520
from, from the bottom up and you
love picking your, your

231
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,160
companies, but just one more on
the, the kind of macro lens with

232
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,480
a, with a very Aussie focus to
it, like coal bit METCO in

233
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,080
Queensland is, is next to
impossible.

234
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,240
No one's putting capital to work
there really.

235
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,440
And I think just 3-4 weeks ago
the NSW government said no

236
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,880
greenfields coal mines are going
to be built in that state.

237
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,280
So how do you think about the
goal posts shifting as you go

238
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,520
with some of your investments?
Yeah.

239
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,520
I mean, I'm not investing in a,
in a, in a thermal coal explorer

240
00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,280
in New South Wales, that's for
sure.

241
00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,800
I think you need to be investing
in something that's operating or

242
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:01,320
is very close to being in
operations.

243
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,160
So our preferred sector exposure
is New Hope.

244
00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,520
They've got the greatest
concentration of thermal coal in

245
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,400
their portfolio, very long life
assets, great growth profile and

246
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,480
have proven to be good capital
allocators over a long period of

247
00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,200
time.
So, so pretty much everything

248
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,800
you get asked for and it's
actually a blessing in disguise

249
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,480
that this has happened.
For those that have existing

250
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,280
assets, the cost of capital for
thermal coal has been probably

251
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,920
20% for the past five years.
I'm sure that will change going

252
00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,760
forwards.
But that what that has meant is

253
00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,680
that there's almost no
incremental supply coming to the

254
00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:37,200
system.
And in fact, there's going to be

255
00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,200
production declines from
developed world assets as well

256
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,160
as some in Indonesia as well.
And so that just creates a

257
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,400
fantastic backdrop for investing
from my perspective.

258
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,760
And yeah, we're pretty excited
about that.

259
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:54,600
I mean, just when we speak to
our institutional clients five

260
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,240
years ago versus now, the
conversation used to be very

261
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,360
much on our carbon emissions.
We want you to lower the carbon

262
00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,320
intensity of your portfolio X
percent every year for the next

263
00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,920
5 years.
Now it's much more about energy

264
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,440
security.
And I think that's something

265
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,840
that's not only happening with
institutional managers here in

266
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:15,520
Australia, it's something that's
happening globally.

267
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:21,240
Everyone's much more focused on
energy security and also the

268
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,960
cheap cost of power as well.
Because as we move into this new

269
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,040
world of artificial
intelligence, what's the really,

270
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,640
you know, the competitive
advantage that your economy can

271
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,200
have is a cheap cost of power.
And we look at the two best

272
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:34,640
economies in the world, US and
China.

273
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,960
What do they both have?
Very cheap cost of power and,

274
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,160
and they're going to continue to
benefit from that.

275
00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:43,320
And when it comes to sorry, I
know I'm talking idea when it

276
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:49,440
comes to, to emissions, you
know, not to get to sort of

277
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:54,440
philosophical, but 85% of global
carbon emissions at the moment

278
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,360
are not covered under the Paris
Agreement.

279
00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:59,720
China's building out record
amounts of coal-fired capacity.

280
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,440
So unfortunately for the world,
it doesn't look like carbon

281
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,640
emissions from fossil fuels are
going to slow anytime soon, and

282
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,680
a lot of countries have already
shown their hand in terms of

283
00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,000
prioritizing cheap power over
decarbonizing.

284
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,680
The, I mean the China example is
fantastic because they have like

285
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,080
all of the above approach, every
single type of energy.

286
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,480
They're just going so hard at
it.

287
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,840
Like the amount of capacity and
generation that they added in

288
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,080
the last year alone is just eye
watering.

289
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,400
It's staggering.
And even the US could be could

290
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,000
be in trouble of being left
behind in in that kind of race.

291
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,640
Yep, the one of the other Cole
names we spoke about last time

292
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,160
was was Whitehaven.
I know they got a big METCO

293
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:40,800
portion, but that's played out
pretty awesome since we last

294
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,600
spoke.
I think that was 4 bucks 50 and

295
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,640
now it's closer to to 9.
Are you, are you still playing

296
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:47,760
around there or do you think
that's approached full value?

297
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,440
I think they've done an amazing
job there, but we say better

298
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,040
upside in, in New Hope at the
moment.

299
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,520
We've got a bit more of a
preference for thermal over Matt

300
00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,920
and and New Hope's the best way
to express that in the Aussie

301
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,600
market, particularly now that
Yankel have done the the Cashel

302
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:07,400
transaction.
So yeah, yeah, nothing against

303
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,320
New Hope against Whitehaven.
I think there's still some

304
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,560
upside there, but a preference
in our portfolio for New Hope at

305
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,520
the moment.
Are there Ding Ding, Ding on all

306
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:21,320
of those common apes but 50 the
Yeah, like it is fascinating

307
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,840
that you have these these these
are thermal thermal coal miners

308
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,680
that that there's been a real
theme to get the diversification

309
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,240
into metcoal.
And now all of a sudden, yeah,

310
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,520
maybe maybe Thermal's actually
one of the more attractive

311
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,000
things to be and, and people
have maybe, maybe forget or

312
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,040
maybe, maybe, maybe throw it
aside because it wasn't

313
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,040
investable to a large, you know,
portion of people before.

314
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,160
But yeah, but these, these,
these companies, they derated,

315
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,240
they're like their multiples
compressed because they became

316
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,120
an uninvestable asset class.
And yeah, as that is like, you

317
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,240
know, the energy security part
becomes bring becomes to the

318
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:52,560
forefront, they become
investable again.

319
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,080
And guess what, multiple
expansion at the exact same time

320
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,960
as you get the, the, the
commodity price on your side.

321
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,280
It's it's a double whammy.
Yeah, I think that's right.

322
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,200
And nothing excites me more than
when I ring up an analyst or

323
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,800
something and I've done a couple
of days of work on a, a, you

324
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,760
know, a commodity or a company
and they say to me, I haven't,

325
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,480
no one's called me about that
stock in years.

326
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:13,960
Guy on the buy side who's
looking at this sector or stock.

327
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,840
I just love that because it it
sort of tells you where you are

328
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,720
in the hype cycle.
Is gas a big focus for you as

329
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:21,320
well?
It is, yeah.

330
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,400
I mean, gas has a lot of a lot
of similar characteristics and

331
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:26,680
qualities.
There's just limited ways to

332
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,960
invest in the Australian market,
unfortunately.

333
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,080
We are big shareholders in
Amplitude Energy and have been

334
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,320
there for a number of years and
and continue to think that's

335
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,120
that's great value.
They should be generating

336
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,000
underlying free cash flow of
$170 million this year, market

337
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,560
caps about 550.
They've had some tough

338
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,800
exploration results lately,
they'll be the first to admit

339
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,400
that.
But we still see that as a

340
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:49,920
fantastic business that can
grow.

341
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,560
And we're going to need a lot
more gas in Australia to

342
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,880
supplement the renewables.
You look at many grids over time

343
00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:03,640
and they move from 5 to 25%
renewal at 5 to 25% gas as

344
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,960
renewable start to penetrate,
like using SA as an example and

345
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,240
many countries overseas and, and
if we have the gas and

346
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,560
appropriate price, then
Australia could potentially do

347
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,079
that as well because it's a
great fuel for farming.

348
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:19,079
So yeah, we need more supply and
if there's good projects out

349
00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:22,319
there, we're we're very happy to
to invest in them if they're

350
00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:23,880
going to generate an appropriate
return.

351
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,520
Sorry to jump in mate.
I'm not sure if you've been

352
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,960
following all the kerfuffle with
the with the Australian federal

353
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,480
budget, but things are changing
in the negative gearing world

354
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:31,720
for property owners.
But you know what mate?

355
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,200
You know who's unaffected by any
of that?

356
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,560
Because some people don't have
an investment property that they

357
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,520
negatively hear.
No, they invest in commercial

358
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,520
property through a private
investment vehicle like Exceed

359
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,360
Capitals, the collective fund.
Exceed Capital, the only name

360
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:47,160
you need to know first and
foremost because they invest

361
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,640
personally in all the funds that
they put out there to their unit

362
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,240
holders.
They are aligned.

363
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,320
They don't just take a
management fee for nothing.

364
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,680
Their performance fees are
aligned with you doing well.

365
00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,800
They target a 7 to 8% cash
return per annum, not even

366
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,000
taking into account the capital
uplift from the underlying

367
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,080
asset, and they pay a monthly
distribution as well.

368
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,240
Check out Exceed Capital Money
Miners, their flagship The

369
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,600
Collective Fund, 5 commercial
properties in there soon to be

370
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:15,720
another one I believe on the
West Coast.

371
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:16,880
Check it out.
Go exceed.

372
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:22,160
We started our combo talking
about Genesis and and I mean,

373
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,200
Genesis has become a much bigger
company over the journey that

374
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,560
you've owned it.
Are you, are you like, yeah,

375
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,160
like are you looking down the
curve a bit more at some of the,

376
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,160
the, the, the incoming gold
juniors?

377
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,480
Definitely, yeah.
Genesis was sort of a top three

378
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,520
position in the portfolio.
Now it's top ten.

379
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,400
We did a body of work probably 6
months ago, just looking at the

380
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,840
evaluation discrepancy between
the larger cap producers and

381
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,480
then some of the project
developers.

382
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,560
And out of that work, we
identified a couple of companies

383
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,120
to go out and do a bit more due
diligence on.

384
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:57,880
And one of those was MI 6.
And so we've been really

385
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,760
fortunate that we identified
that and, and made the the right

386
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:07,840
investment decision.
And I think that's a fantastic

387
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,760
company and they've done some
really interesting things over

388
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,160
the past six months.
So, yeah, again, at the, at the

389
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,240
Macquarie dinner, I don't want
to give Macquarie too much of A

390
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,120
plug here, but I asked why MI 6
wasn't there and one of the

391
00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:23,400
bankers jokingly said to me that
they just do royalty deals and

392
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,960
and no equity, right.
So there's obviously no fees for

393
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,440
the bankers.
Oh, that's, that's, that's be

394
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:29,280
rough.
It was a joke.

395
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:29,840
It was.
A joke, I mean.

396
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,880
Pretty sure Luke, who runs MI 6
would have, yeah, been pretty

397
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,920
involved when when Macquarie was
advising that was minerals back

398
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:39,240
in the days.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they.

399
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:40,840
Should they, should they owe me
an invite?

400
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:42,840
I reckon yeah, I.
Think you'll wear the next year

401
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:48,480
somehow that's I mean that that
asset that they have it's I

402
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,600
think four and a half million oz
resource.

403
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,440
Now we see that going to 8.
We think it can be 10 million

404
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,480
tonnes per annum, 300,000 oz
producer for 10 years.

405
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,560
That's a $5 billion company in
in on anyone's numbers, but

406
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,720
there's many companies that go
through the project sort of

407
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,240
although the song curve.
And they, they raise money too

408
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,400
early and they dilute
shareholders and they impair,

409
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,520
you know, their company forever,
right?

410
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:19,760
And so the deal that Luke and
the MI 6 guys did, in my view is

411
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,440
a, it's just a great
demonstration of how management

412
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,800
teams can create value in mining
beyond, you know, operationally

413
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,560
and, and, and making the correct
capital allocation calls.

414
00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:34,480
So they effectively raised $170
million with a look through cost

415
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:38,640
of capital at 3 to 4%.
If they went out and tried to

416
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,960
dilute at a 45 cent share price
where it was at the time of that

417
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,440
deal that would have been
permanent value destruction.

418
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,480
They effectively managed to
extract a produce a multiple for

419
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,560
those oz that they sold and so
do and the share price responded

420
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,400
accordingly.
And that deal with Franklin

421
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,720
Novato, I think is it just shows
the quality of the asset that

422
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,760
they were willing to do it.
And then it also shows what what

423
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,240
you can do if you have a good
asset like that, instead of

424
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,080
deleting everyone, you can go
out there, you can do those

425
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,120
royalty deals.
And I wouldn't be surprised if

426
00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:14,640
they can get that resource to 8
million oz.

427
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,280
You know, there's a real
potential that they can just

428
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,600
double down on that Franco deal
and they actually won't need any

429
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,200
equity funding at all to develop
it.

430
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,560
It it's like the penny dropped
in the market overnight and they

431
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,280
went from I think they went from
like $0.12 to 30 plus cents in

432
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:28,720
the, in space of like a few
weeks.

433
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,080
And all of a sudden everyone
looks at it kind of different.

434
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,560
The, the word around town is
very, very different.

435
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,720
But I remember when we first
spoke you, you spoke a lot about

436
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:39,120
to exactly what you were
mentioning just there not liking

437
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:41,800
single asset companies thinking
there's a lot of risk in that.

438
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,920
Are you, are you much more
comfortable with the royalty

439
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,960
type funding and not having that
hedge or all that sort of stuff?

440
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,080
Yeah.
I don't like seeing, glad to say

441
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,360
companies at all really as as an
investor and an investor who

442
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,000
predominantly owns companies
that are in production.

443
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,360
Yeah, because they've got the
royalty component, they'll

444
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:01,600
obviously need less debt if if
it comes to that.

445
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,960
But I think I'd prefer to say,
oh, quite honestly, that that

446
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,000
asset is part of a bigger
portfolio where we get that

447
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,920
diversification of risk and a
lower cost of funding as well.

448
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,840
So I'm sure the the guys are
thinking about it, you know how

449
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,040
they progress the project,
they'll get to a point where

450
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,680
it's build or sell and it'll
come down to to what creates the

451
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,440
most value for shareholders.
But my personal view is that

452
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,960
there's a lot more value to be
unlocked with the dual bit.

453
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,520
If you can take it from 4.5
million ounces to 8 million oz

454
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,200
and you can prove up the fact
that you can operate 10 million

455
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,920
tons per annum, produce 300,000
oz for 15 years, that is an

456
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,200
incredibly valuable asset.
I mean but did hammer get taken

457
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,440
out for back when the gold
prices a fair bit lower than

458
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,640
there's now probably 5 people?
Yeah.

459
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,160
Yeah.
Any guesses on who's going to

460
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,640
take out MR6?
No idea.

461
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,680
No, you're joining me on that
one.

462
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,000
And there were all these like,
like anchoring biases, right?

463
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,040
And it was such a big amount of
capital that they raised to get

464
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,800
hold of the asset.
And I feel like every

465
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,320
established producer got the
chance to participate in that to

466
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,440
help them raise the capital.
And maybe they pass for whatever

467
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,400
reason, maybe, maybe not for
project reasons, but, you know,

468
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,400
to pass at that stage and then
and then come back later.

469
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:16,920
It's, it's a hard psychological
thing to do.

470
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:18,360
Yeah.
Definitely, yeah.

471
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,080
I mean we come across that with
stocks all the time.

472
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,040
Sometimes you, you sell
something to make the wrong

473
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,960
decision and you have to
constantly go back and, and re

474
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,880
evaluate your thesis.
And I've learnt the hard way

475
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,840
that you can't, you can't do
that if you want to make money.

476
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,000
You have to continually question
your your judgements and, and go

477
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,880
back and re look at things.
So yeah, I'm sure with the

478
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,520
benefit of hindsight, some of
those companies would wish that

479
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,560
they had bought it.
But you look at the amount of

480
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,360
due diligence that Franco would
have done on that deal.

481
00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:51,200
They've taken A1, what is a
royalty for the 1st 4 million

482
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,200
oz.
So they're effectively saying

483
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,920
this company is going to produce
a 4 million ounces of gold from

484
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,040
from this asset and they've paid
a very, very full price on that

485
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,640
basis.
So that gives me a huge amount

486
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,280
of confidence that what's Frank
$100 billion company's done the

487
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,720
DD and you know, and validated
it.

488
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,720
Outside of Gold 50?
Yep.

489
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:12,920
Where?
Which?

490
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,800
Which commodities are grabbing
your attention right now?

491
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,600
Which companies are really
sticking out?

492
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,280
So, yeah, gold's obviously
pretty topical a lot in the

493
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,000
energy space, which we've
already touched on, continue to

494
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,680
be really positive on the
uranium market.

495
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,520
I mean, it's not sexy, it's not
exciting, no one's talking about

496
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,480
it.
But I think it just keeps on

497
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,480
grinding higher as we move
further and further towards

498
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,600
those inevitable deficits that
are coming in the market.

499
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:39,800
Still have the same exposures
there.

500
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,760
Yeah, just in a bit of a flat
spot at the moment.

501
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,080
But the same exposures being.
I'm happy to talk about it.

502
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:48,880
Yeah.
Next Gen. in Paladin, Yeah,

503
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,200
yeah.
Paladin's really hit us straps

504
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,960
in in recent history, as opposed
to, yeah, like the hiccups that

505
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:56,720
went there along the way.
Their last cycle and their

506
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,120
reporting was really strong.
Yeah, definitely not They've

507
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:00,800
they've done a good job.
I mean pretty rare to see an

508
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,960
upgrade in the uranium sector.
We haven't seen one of those in

509
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:04,280
a while.
It.

510
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,760
Must be a typo.
Yeah, absolutely.

511
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,440
They've, they've done a
fantastic job, Paul, Paul and

512
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:11,880
the guys.
And I think there's a bit of

513
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,560
renewed focus on the operations
there.

514
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,560
They'll have some challenges I
think over the next 18 months as

515
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:21,680
they transition to all fresh
mining from rather than

516
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,280
stockpiles.
But you know, when you look at

517
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,360
the, the opportunities available
to invest in uranium globally,

518
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:29,920
it's, it's a pretty skinny
playing field.

519
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,360
And I think those two companies
stand out to me.

520
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,600
I head and shoulders above the
rest.

521
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,000
Yeah.
So when, when you think back to

522
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,520
the the conference you've just
come come from, you don't

523
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,720
actually have to limit this to
commodities and mining.

524
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:43,840
But what are the other big
takeaways?

525
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,000
So the AI CapEx rollout and
everything going on there, the

526
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,960
the energy implications, what
are the other big things people

527
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,400
are talking about?
I mean, obviously energy

528
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,920
security is massive 1.
I had some really interesting

529
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,840
conversations with the Viva
guys, the Ample guys, just

530
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,000
talking about what's happening
in Australia from a fuel

531
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,000
security standpoint.
If I have to go into another

532
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,800
like meeting with a mining
company and hear people ask them

533
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,000
how many days of diesel they've
got on site and I'll, yeah, I

534
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,200
might try and find a window
because it's, yeah, it's, it's

535
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,240
definitely something that's on
everyone's lips.

536
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,720
Yeah, I think there's some
fantastic opportunities for some

537
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,200
of the contracting sector across
Australia there in that fuel

538
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,040
security package.
I mean there's an extra 1

539
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:29,640
billion litres that needs to be
stored.

540
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,560
So that's going to create a fair
bit of work for a lot of

541
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,600
contracting businesses.
Everyone pretty negative not

542
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,960
surprisingly on, on the domestic
cyclicals, right.

543
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,040
It's pretty tough out there.
But you know from a putting my

544
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,040
mining and energy had on, I'm
super positive on the outlook.

545
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,160
I just look at the amount of
change that's happening and just

546
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,120
how commodity intensive it is
and what it means for for

547
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:56,960
energy, for copper, for for
thermal coal, for rare earths

548
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,880
lithium.
You know, I think it's a

549
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,240
fantastic place to be an
investor at at the moment.

550
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,040
At the same time as we're seeing
a lot of companies D right,

551
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,560
because everyone's concerned
about what artificial

552
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,760
intelligence is going to do to
their business models, like

553
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:12,880
software companies as an
example.

554
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,120
I think mining stands out head
and shoulders above the rest.

555
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:17,720
You can't, you know, the, the
stuff's been sitting in there

556
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,360
for hundreds of millions of
years in the ground.

557
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:22,480
You can't replicate that through
AIAI, can't dig it up.

558
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:25,360
So you're going to see the
multiples of those free cash

559
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:27,400
flows rewrite.
And at the same time, some of

560
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,560
these trends are driving a lot
of demand decarbonisation and so

561
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,160
on.
So I just think it's an awesome

562
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,200
time to be an investor in the
space.

563
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,400
And yeah, we're pretty excited
about the outlook you said.

564
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,000
Yeah.
What's your latest evaluation of

565
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,800
the universe?
I knew you guys asked me about

566
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:44,200
that.
Yeah.

567
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,720
Tough, tough, tough times.
We underweight the last six

568
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:48,640
months.
I was.

569
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,280
I was really surprised that
Linus managed to get a 15 year

570
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,040
deal away with a floor price at
110.

571
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,560
I mean that is, that is
extraordinary.

572
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,200
It's amazing.
Amanda on the on the way out has

573
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,720
she's had a she's been on a bit
of a hot streak, like.

574
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:03,760
Unbelievable.
Yeah.

575
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,240
Yeah, yeah.
It's pretty crazy that huge

576
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,200
capital raising they got done
mid, mid last year as well.

577
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,200
A lot of the talk was like, what
are they going to buy?

578
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,320
They, they were speaking about
this, be it downstream,

579
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,840
upstream, looking at everything,
Malaysia, Korea was mentioned,

580
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,240
these sorts of things.
Yep.

581
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,160
Do you have more thoughts that
kind of come to mind with how

582
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,960
that whole space has evolved in
the last little while?

583
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:26,560
Yeah, I do.
Yeah.

584
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,720
Price flaws, I think are
fundamentally flawed concepts

585
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,160
over the long term.
Through history, we've seen

586
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,000
numerous examples of this.
I think there was the Australian

587
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,640
Wool Board, the International
Teen Association.

588
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:43,720
I mean, they all, they always
end in tears.

589
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,880
But what they can do is
incentivize a lot of supply and

590
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,200
hopefully that's what happens in
the rare earth sector from a

591
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,000
strategic perspective, right?
Like that's that's why the price

592
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,560
falls are there to create more
supply.

593
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,960
They are to ultimately create
more supply and bring prices

594
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:02,600
down over the long term.
And so I think that that is

595
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,480
what's going to happen.
There's some great project in

596
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,600
projects in Brazil and other
parts of the world, Hard Rock

597
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,800
projects in Australia and if you
run through USA, 110 bucks, they

598
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,760
generate IRS of 50% plus.
And so they will come to market,

599
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,240
the prices will come down.
The hard thing as an investor is

600
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,480
when will that occur and to what
extent will robotics and that

601
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,920
demand counter that on the other
side of the equation when I look

602
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,720
at how to invest?
Has price come down when you've

603
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,760
got a price for like if you're
someone that's got a price floor

604
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,800
for all of the volumes that you
can produce, then like why does

605
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,560
it matter if price comes down,
if that makes sense?

606
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,480
Well, yeah, you can.
You can go invest in Linus.

607
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:42,800
It's got a.
Price for but you're going to

608
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,680
pay yeah, of course it's it's
it's an infrastructure like type

609
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,080
asset you know for a while
because of this certain downside

610
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,160
it'd be the sense.
Until it rolls off.

611
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:53,720
Yeah, and there's a production
issues.

612
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,880
And yeah, I mean, you can invest
in Linus, but you'll pay for

613
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:57,960
that certainty.
Totally, totally the multiple as

614
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,200
well.
Yeah, don't get me wrong.

615
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,680
Yeah, but as I mean to to your
point, there's not many

616
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,360
commodity producers out there
that are have a guaranteed

617
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:05,240
price.
Oh, it's crazy.

618
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:06,880
And it will last for a for a
time.

619
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,280
I mean, there's a big entities,
but ultimately if you just run

620
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,360
it through to its theoretical
conclusion, you're going to

621
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,840
incentivize more supply and you
can't just keep on buying at 110

622
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:19,520
because ultimately someone.
Nationalized at some point

623
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,000
because, yeah, how you know, but
how else to sit and I don't

624
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,960
know, yeah.
Yeah, it's it's wild.

625
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,240
I know.
I never would have thought it

626
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,480
was going to happen, but here we
are.

627
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,320
But how do you invest in it from
a junior perspective?

628
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,400
If I'm sitting in the Linus seat
right now or or even a liquor

629
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,280
and you've got all that equity
value because you have that 110

630
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,080
price floor, I'm going out and
I'm using that to buy high

631
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,520
quality early stage development
assets that probably aren't

632
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:47,840
going to have that same
certainty.

633
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,240
You then concentrate the supply
more and you can create value

634
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,560
for your shareholders by doing
that.

635
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,040
So I think some of the early
stage projects which we're small

636
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:01,040
investors in in Brazil are like
a VMM or an Mei, very high

637
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,880
grade, good projects that
provide fantastic returns, those

638
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,720
sort of multiples.
And yeah, very, very low market

639
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,600
caps when you compare them to to
Linus.

640
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,000
And so I think, yeah, obviously
they'd be running the ruler over

641
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,200
what they do there because I
think it's going to be pretty

642
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,040
important to have some sort of
presence in Brazil overall.

643
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,240
We just saw the Sara Verde deal
for, was it $2.9 billion from US

644
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,320
rare earths.
So it's, yeah, I think there's

645
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:27,720
some pretty good value there
short time.

646
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:29,960
With some interesting flags
attached on that one.

647
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,120
Having to sell the the off take
into a what seems like a related

648
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,680
party of the, of the US
government.

649
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,840
I mean, this has been a theme
of, of the last kind of year.

650
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,360
The whole, the whole space.
It it was.

651
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,240
Can you get close to the
administration in, in the

652
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,120
states?
Anyone posting on on Twitter or

653
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,640
anything like this?
So yeah, it's it's, it's a

654
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,840
fascinating kind of part of the
market.

655
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,600
Yep, crazy times.
Copper is the other, you know,

656
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,840
one of the other big ones that
we haven't spoken about, which

657
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,960
is one of the most gossip about
commodities of what are you,

658
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:01,600
what are you sort of seeing
there?

659
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,680
We just continue to like copper,
yeah, from a structural

660
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,080
perspective and I still think
there's some great opportunities

661
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,320
in the Aussie market.
Yeah, our preferred pick there

662
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,880
is Firefly FFM and we still got
the Aaron Collins, the the A1

663
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,560
Ms. out there in Eloise, Yeah,
close to where used to work at

664
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:19,720
Cannington.
So Ding, Ding, Ding.

665
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,680
So yeah, continue to be.
I think FFM particularly just in

666
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,080
most recent little while it's
had a bit of a pull back and and

667
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,040
that looks very attractive to
me.

668
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:37,640
We saw El Dorado take out
foreign mining for 2.9 billion

669
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,360
Aussie.
I think it was controversial.

670
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,480
Controversial.
Yeah, one guys weren't too

671
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,320
weren't too happy with that one.
Yeah, the El Dorado share price

672
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,080
isn't too happy with that.
One, no, but I mean, yeah,

673
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,200
sometimes I thought N Parks was
expensive when Evolution bought

674
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,040
it and that that that's, that's
a cracking asset for them now.

675
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,800
So often I think with these
assets, you need to be prepared

676
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,800
to to look forward and, and, you
know, forecast what's going to

677
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,320
happen in the future and have a
view and the look through

678
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,680
valuation.
I mean, you just get crazy

679
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,480
numbers on FFM or like Green Bay
asset.

680
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,520
If you start to apply Eldorado
multiples, you know, it's twice

681
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,280
the the size, it's better grade,
it's longer life and it's on a

682
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,400
granted mining lease.
Yes, it's unfunded, but you

683
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,000
know, it should be at least
double the price that it is

684
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,360
today in my view, albeit there's
still some some funding and

685
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,440
execution risk.
Can I, can I pitch one too?

686
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,160
Yeah.
Yeah, here we go.

687
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,000
Is it time to look at Hill Grove
with new eyes?

688
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,440
They, so their, their numbers
last quarter were good.

689
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,480
They made good cash.
They've they've put out

690
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,600
guidance, they've stuck with it,
their costs, you know, there's,

691
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,520
there's great margin.
They're going to produce 15,000

692
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,960
tons of copper this year at
healthy, healthy margin.

693
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,240
And the CapEx that they've been
embarking on is done.

694
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,080
It's sunk.
But it's got such an undemanding

695
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,640
market cap and like not not a
huge output obviously, but big

696
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,280
enough to warrant probably a
large market cap that it has.

697
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:04,480
Yeah.
What's the market cut?

698
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,840
I think it's like, I'm pretty
sure it's 120 million bucks.

699
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,639
Well, OK, Yeah.
And what's the is it generating

700
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:13,480
cash?
It's it generated last quarter

701
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,280
pretty sure 15,000,000 bucks of
of.

702
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,560
Free cash Yeah in.
Between capital raises, it makes

703
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,840
money.
It's a it's a bull market asset,

704
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,320
but it's a bull market and it's.
Better than $29.00 and.

705
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,679
And this is true.
And I think management's OK.

706
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,960
Yeah, I think management's good.
Yeah, OK.

707
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:30,840
Yeah.
Is that, that's Bob Fulker,

708
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,880
right?
The old evolution COA, correct.

709
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,080
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I haven't looked at it closely,

710
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:36,880
but I reckon it's.
I don't know.

711
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,560
Is that Ding Ding, Ding I'm.
Pitching it just to see if I

712
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,159
should own it really.
I'm trying to iron out my own

713
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:43,239
thinking, but I do think it's
worth looking at when you eyes.

714
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,840
Underground.
Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

715
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:47,560
What I mean an hour and. 1/2
from Adelaide.

716
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,040
Nice beautiful love Adelaide
just.

717
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:51,239
Go over the hills.
It's.

718
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,760
Beautiful.
Yeah, I mean with, with small

719
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,920
scale mining companies
underground, one thing I always

720
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:00,840
look for is just how real is a
free cash flow?

721
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:06,680
Because I've, I've invested in
in a few and in my years and

722
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,320
they often you find that they'll
underdevelop when prices are low

723
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,840
and then suddenly all your free
cash flow just goes back into

724
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,200
the ground when they're high.
And so, yeah, that that's,

725
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,960
that's something I'll be asking
Bob about if and when I catch up

726
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,680
with him.
Well, this one is a Ding, Ding,

727
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,960
Ding, but sand fire did a deal a
little while ago to to come back

728
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,400
home with, with Havilah.
So kind of at the the upper and

729
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,400
lower end of what you look at in
terms of market cap in, in

730
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,840
companies here.
But did did you take a look

731
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,120
through that deal and you have
thoughts on it?

732
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,520
I didn't, not not in detail, but
I was actually a personal

733
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,120
shareholder in Havilah from for
many years ago because I've

734
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,720
always loved the asset and it
was always too small to sort of

735
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:52,200
make it into our fund.
But yeah, I think that's that's

736
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,120
a great asset.
What was interesting was I

737
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,720
understand the guy who did the
deal at Osmond was effectively

738
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,000
moved to Sand Fire and then did
the same deal again.

739
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,200
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, we, we had Brendan on the

740
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,880
potty, all right.
Yeah, yeah.

741
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,440
Ding, Ding, Ding.
We don't have a but yeah, yeah,

742
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,040
it might actually be big enough
for fun now because yeah, it'll

743
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:14,280
get bigger over time as well as
as as sand fire, you know, puts

744
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,880
in dollars to to advance the
asset too.

745
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,040
Yeah.
I've always thought that it

746
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,760
needed $50 million of drilling
spent on it to to really bulk it

747
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,960
out and see what's there.
And I think that's a great

748
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,080
example of an asset that, you
know, hopefully sand fire

749
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,000
created a lot of value for
shareholders by taking what is,

750
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,880
you know, potentially a pretty
optimistic view on it.

751
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,120
But, you know, I think the
geology is super interesting in

752
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,280
that part of the world and
there's potentially a lot of

753
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,000
copper there.
So, yeah, I think those those

754
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,760
are the sorts of assets that we
should be investing in the.

755
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:52,080
First time we spoke 50, we, we
spoke a bit about, about lithium

756
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,920
development assets that were
attractive.

757
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,520
And now it's the kind of cycle
where they become extra

758
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,560
attractive because the producers
have have run and the developers

759
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,320
are playing catch up.
Now there's there's that

760
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,200
relative, relative value for
producers to maybe, maybe, maybe

761
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,240
acquire some of these projects.
Definitely.

762
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,960
Yep, agree with that.
I think Wildcats got to be the.

763
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,200
Prime target.
Prime target for Pilbara.

764
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,360
Wildcat hat at home still, yeah.
Men or Pilbara?

765
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,280
Definitely.
I'd probably say men would be

766
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,120
most likely on that one.
I still think that's a really

767
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,520
good project.
They've still got 15.

768
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,520
Percent.
Yeah, as far as I know, yeah, I

769
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:26,640
haven't looked closely in a
while.

770
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,800
Yeah, we don't own Wildcat at
the moment.

771
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,400
Yeah, we're, I mean, lithium's
interesting, but it's not, it's,

772
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,240
you know, you're still trading
well, well above marginal cost

773
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:38,520
and well above incentive
pricing.

774
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,600
So kind of keep grinding higher.
You speaking to Dale from Pill

775
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,800
where he'll tell you Yes, but
funny that, yeah, funny that

776
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,720
although lithium producers are
all saying that a couple of

777
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:50,360
years ago.
As well pricing.

778
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,880
So look, I think it really comes
down to picking like really good

779
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,440
stock specifics in that sector
at the moment.

780
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:01,200
You can't rely on spot going
from 2500 to 5000 like you could

781
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,480
rely on it going from 600 to
1500.

782
00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:07,560
So for us, the the best
opportunity at the moment

783
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,000
remains a lever, which is a
North American asset, great

784
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,560
management team still trading on
about half the multiple when you

785
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,720
look at Pilbara, Lontown and
then we've recently taken a

786
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:19,680
position also in lithium
Argentina.

787
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,240
So that's a very low cost Brian
asset.

788
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:24,000
I'm not sure if that so 1 you
guys have looked at.

789
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,560
But yeah, yeah, they're and
they're running a, a, a sell

790
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:32,040
down minority interest in the
asset with Ganfang, which which

791
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,600
might be a bit of a catalyst for
them if they yeah, bring in and

792
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,400
acquire at that stake, which has
a really healthy C3 value on the

793
00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:40,360
yeah, the, the, the broader
asset and hence their, their

794
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,320
relative market cap too.
Yeah, I think that's right.

795
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:43,320
Yeah.
I mean I'm, I'm a pretty

796
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,320
fundamental guy in terms of cost
curves and just wanting to earn

797
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,720
stuff that's low on the cost
curve and could generate cash

798
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:51,560
through cycles.
And now in the Australian

799
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,520
market, we don't have any really
good Brian assets to invest in

800
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,080
now that all Cam has been
swallowed up by Rio.

801
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,520
So I think that's a really good
opportunity.

802
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,120
I think they're second second
lowest cost or third lowest cost

803
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,200
in the world on a look through
basis.

804
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,240
So I think that's a really
interesting company.

805
00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:10,760
Yes, it's minority interest, but
you've got good Chinese partners

806
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,400
in there that can obviously sell
the product and provide

807
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,680
financing and also the technical
backing as well.

808
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,880
So I think that's a pretty
interesting one.

809
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,760
When I think about some of the
most crazy things that have

810
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,000
happened in the years since
we've spoke and you said are

811
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,840
relevant because they're, you
know, in the index of of what

812
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,520
you play.
I never would have thought we

813
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,320
would speak about AQR, but
that's a 1.8.

814
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,760
I think last time I looked $1.8
billion company that I, I know

815
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,000
everyone on Twitter owned shares
in this.

816
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,640
I haven't really met anyone in
person that seems to have owned

817
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,880
stock in this, but it's, it's in
I don't even have words for the

818
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,360
journey that that's kind of been
on.

819
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,520
And you mentioned cost curves.
This would not be on any kind of

820
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,120
part of the cost curve that
attracts you.

821
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,760
But I mean, I think it's, I
think it's kind of emblematic of

822
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,080
what we've seen in the early
parts of this year.

823
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,920
How do you like make sense of
that?

824
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,080
How do you play that?
Because the benchmark and all

825
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,240
these sorts of things are
important in how you manage the

826
00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,280
fund and whatnot?
Yeah, absolutely.

827
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,840
It can be challenging.
I've learned the hard way that,

828
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:11,960
you know, it's pretty painful to
to watch stocks go up that you

829
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:13,800
don't own because they're part
of a hop cycle.

830
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,200
But it's, you know, ultimately
we're here to do the right thing

831
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,680
for investors on a three-year
view to allocate companies to

832
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,760
the best opportunities.
And we don't buy things just

833
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:24,760
because we think they're going
up.

834
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:28,840
Even if the asset is worth 0 and
pick up, there's plenty of

835
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,760
those, plenty of those and they
happen all the time.

836
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,280
So we are very happy to just
wear the paint on the way up

837
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,360
because we'll know we'll make it
back on the way down.

838
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,680
In terms of tungsten and EQR, I
mean, I can sort of understand

839
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,080
the the crazy valuation.
The dust doesn't look like

840
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,040
there's an easy way to solve the
supply and demand equation

841
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,640
unless China starts supplying
back into the market and it

842
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:53,400
doesn't look like that's going
to happen.

843
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,000
It doesn't look like despite
what you think about what may

844
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,920
happen in Iran, you know, we are
moving into this bifurcated

845
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:04,120
world where you know, the supply
chains are all shifting and that

846
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,160
creates a lot of opportunities
and Tungsten's a great example

847
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,040
of that.
I've I've looked at AQR and I've

848
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,280
looked at Al Monty and we
actually think the best asset

849
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,200
that's undeveloped at the moment
sits in Greatland with the

850
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,560
Callahan's.
I'm not sure if anyone's come on

851
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:20,680
and talked about that before,
but.

852
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,680
We talked about a couple times.
Yeah, that's, I mean to me

853
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,000
that's if you run spot prices
through that, it's a $5 billion

854
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,120
asset.
So they, they, they're going to

855
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,440
be able to monetize that for
more than they paid for, like

856
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,600
yeah, for, for, yeah, yeah,
Telfer and, and Havra.

857
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:39,400
Yeah, I'll, I'll take that.
But every day of the week.

858
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:40,280
Crazy, right?
Yeah.

859
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,440
So, yeah, I think the
interesting, I mean, I don't

860
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,120
think Sean and the guys there
want to have a great land

861
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,000
tungsten division because it's a
pretty specialized commodity

862
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,080
from a processing standpoint as
I understand it.

863
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:52,920
And so I'd think.
Close.

864
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,200
Isn't it to to Telfer as well?
Like, yeah, I'm pretty sure.

865
00:41:55,400 --> 00:42:00,880
Yeah, yeah, very close.
I think there might be short

866
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,640
processing capacity soon, not
long.

867
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,720
It's quite deep too.
I think it's like 400 meters

868
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:09,480
underground.
Yeah, yeah, but it's large and

869
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,320
better grad.
It's weird saying like .6% weird

870
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:13,720
saying that's high grade
tungsten, but that's high grade

871
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:15,440
tungsten.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.

872
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,120
I don't have much of a reference
point, but when you look at it

873
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,760
on charts versus deposits, it
looks, looks awesome.

874
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,680
So as I understand it, they'll
seek to, we're great than

875
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,600
shareholders, they'll seek to
monetize that asset, whether

876
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,720
that's through an IPO process.
Because as you guys have

877
00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:30,800
highlighted, there's no shortage
of people close to the

878
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,040
administration in the US with
deep, deep pockets that could

879
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,640
create a lot of value listing
this thing on the NASDAQ or I'm

880
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,800
sure every single SPAC in the
world is, is calling them to try

881
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,000
and get their hands on it.
And then you've obviously got

882
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,880
AQR and El Monte and a couple of
those guys as well that I'm sure

883
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,000
would be interested.
So I'm sure they'll do the right

884
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,520
thing by shareholders and and
we'll hopefully see some value

885
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:56,400
creation from that pretty soon.
That's yeah, pretty interesting

886
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,440
The the the one that's like
maybe faded from hype cycle a

887
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,880
little bit this year, but but
you know, prices are still

888
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,080
elevated and too many.
It's you don't you don't yeah.

889
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:08,960
I wonder if there'll be like
tungsten next year.

890
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,560
It'll just like people pay less
attention to.

891
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,880
Yeah, I don't know when I've got
a bit of a rule when my high

892
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,200
school mates or taxi drivers
start asking me about things

893
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,480
that I know it's yeah, it's time
to go.

894
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,960
So, you know, that's probably
where we are with, with AI now.

895
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,560
Yeah, I do think that's an
enduring thematic, particularly

896
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:31,280
for commodities.
As an aside, it's yeah, I, I,

897
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,160
I've, I don't know.
There's not too many commodities

898
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,840
where we can take that like the
polar opposite view and it's

899
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,960
completely hated.
And one of the closest to that

900
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,040
that would be nickel, although I
think it's off the off the lows

901
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:44,680
now.
But it's really interesting.

902
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,200
The only reason it's frustrating
to talk about is because there's

903
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:51,920
just such a dearth of like ways
to play it these days, ex Indo

904
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,680
ways of, of playing it.
But I'm curious if you've

905
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,960
partaken like Nickel Industries
would be a part of your world?

906
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,120
Yeah, a big part of our world.
You had a chat to Justin.

907
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,880
Yeah, again this week.
And I think what we're seeing

908
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,120
now is really interesting in
terms of just how important

909
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,160
Indonesia is not only just to
nickel, but to a lot of other

910
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,800
commodities.
I mean, you look at the bauxite

911
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,400
market, on the tin market,
obviously coal, which I've

912
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,760
already talked to where they're
also putting in production

913
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,280
restrictions.
It's fascinating and just how

914
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,240
quickly things can change in
terms of trade balances when

915
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:25,160
someone makes a policy driven
decision.

916
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,200
And so I think it's pretty clear
now that we've seen the the

917
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,840
floor price for nickel and we're
we're on the way back up and

918
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,240
it's, it's carbon intensive and
it's hard to produce and it's

919
00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:38,160
expensive to produce.
It requires a lot of reagents.

920
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,120
And quite rightly the the
companies in Indonesia want to

921
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,440
make an economic return on that.
And they control so much of the

922
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,480
market that they can they can
influence price.

923
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,840
And I don't think that changes
any anytime soon.

924
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:50,760
We're not invested in nickel
mines.

925
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,400
I prefer the sulfide glass
personally.

926
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,600
And had a look at CTM before
Centaurus Metals, which has a

927
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,400
project in Brazil.
I think that looks like a really

928
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,920
good little project actually.
Yeah, yeah, if you believe what

929
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,520
they they say very low on the
cost curve and and can be

930
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,640
developed.
So if I was, yeah, looking to

931
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,880
have a have a swing at nickel,
that would probably be my pick.

932
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:13,200
But I'm open to ideas.
Yeah.

933
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,200
Yeah, I think they they did a
raise maybe six months ago.

934
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,320
They had an attaching option as
you do with a, you know, not too

935
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,280
demanding strike price on it.
And that that felt like, you

936
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:24,800
know, the raise they really
didn't want to have to put the

937
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,720
trigger on.
They had to really incentivize

938
00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:28,720
shareholders to get on board.
That would have been a great one

939
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:30,960
to to be a part of.
And like you say, I think they

940
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,320
grade at about .9% nickel
hydropower nearby.

941
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,320
So it should have a lot of
tailwinds close to the America

942
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,320
or America, these sorts of
things if you're looking for ex

943
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:41,720
China type plays.
Yep.

944
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,560
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
No, that's a good one.

945
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,680
Other than nickel, what's
completely in the sine bin?

946
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,040
Perpetually, I always ask myself
this question.

947
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:52,360
I wake up every morning, I'll
text Charles Story and I'll go,

948
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,000
man, what are we?
What's what's one of my friends

949
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,760
who's who works at Solaris and
what's the most hated commodity

950
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,000
out there today?
Because often that's the best

951
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,200
place to invest.
Right, Yeah, yeah.

952
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,360
So the the answer to that
question is always graphite, but

953
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,320
it never gets better.
That's a special circumstance,

954
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,800
probably as we go up there.
Yeah.

955
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:14,840
I mean, yeah, I think I, I'd
almost say at the moment,

956
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,160
honestly, I feel like energy is
the most hated because

957
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,480
everyone's sitting there saying,
yeah, is it straight open?

958
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,160
Is it closed?
Everything's going to normalize

959
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:26,520
and we're all going back to $75
a barrel of oil and and LNG is

960
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:28,080
going to come back and flood the
market.

961
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,600
And I've got absolutely no,
yeah, not afraid to stand up

962
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,760
here and say I've got no idea
about what's going to happen

963
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,520
there.
But what I do know is that on a

964
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:40,960
three to five year view, energy
is is going to be globally a

965
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,040
very scarce commodity.
And I think that people are

966
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:49,320
fading this short term sort of
noise and focusing too much on

967
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,720
that and forgetting about a lot
of the more structural longer

968
00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:55,760
term stuff that's happening.
And we've already talked about

969
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,880
bifurcation.
I was having a chat to a couple

970
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,240
of analysts actually and about
how you how we fundamentally

971
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:05,240
look at supply and demand for
commodities.

972
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,480
And supply is pretty easy and,
and often pretty technical,

973
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,000
particularly if you from an
engineering or geology

974
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,800
background.
But from a demand perspective, I

975
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,800
think one of the best ways to
look at demand is per capita

976
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,800
consumption versus GDP.
And there's this awesome

977
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,040
presentation by Mike Henry back
when he was head of marketing at

978
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,520
BHP in 2011.
You can go look it up still on

979
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,280
the Internet and he plots out
steel consumption per capita

980
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,760
versus GDP per capita.
And he does it for copper, a

981
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:38,040
whole bunch of other
commodities.

982
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,560
And that's really like that's
framed up a lot of the way that

983
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:46,120
I think about forecasting over
the long term for demand.

984
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,560
And the only commodity that
keeps on increasing in terms of

985
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:54,360
intensity per capita with GDP
growth or or how wealthy people

986
00:47:54,360 --> 00:48:00,520
get is electricity.
And so we've and we've seen

987
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:03,560
electricity demand flat for 10
years now because of various

988
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,720
different things, energy
efficiency, etcetera that's

989
00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:08,840
turned on it's head.
We're growing at 3 to 4% in most

990
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,840
developed countries.
And I just think that's a super

991
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,800
exciting time to be an investor
in energy and any energy related

992
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,400
commodities.
So you're, I think energy is the

993
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,800
most headed short term, but I
think people need to look

994
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,000
through the short term noise
and, and think about what's

995
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,200
going to happen in, in three to
four to five years time because

996
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,360
that's where you can make money.
When when I think about that

997
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,840
chart, and I know Rio Tinto used
it a lot during the the China

998
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,120
bull market as well.
Yeah, they always just called it

999
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,240
the the S curve chart and
aluminium was one they always

1000
00:48:35,240 --> 00:48:36,960
pointed out.
And the aluminium market has

1001
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,840
been massively disrupted with
Qatar and everything going on

1002
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:42,600
there.
Another one where there's not

1003
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,480
many ways to play it here, but
Alcoa have their listing from

1004
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:46,400
the Illumina.
Yep.

1005
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,280
Do you, do you spend much time
thinking about that market, a

1006
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,360
fascinating market for global
GDP, these sorts of things?

1007
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:52,960
Yeah, it is.
Yeah.

1008
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,320
It's hard because it's, is it an
energy or is it a commodity?

1009
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,120
Like is it a, you know, is it a
base metal?

1010
00:48:58,120 --> 00:48:59,440
And I think it's got elements of
both.

1011
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,920
We have struggle in terms of our
internal risk systems.

1012
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,080
We we struggle to to work out
where to classify it at the

1013
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:06,600
moment.
It's obviously trading much more

1014
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,640
like an oil stock or an LNG
stock than it is like a base

1015
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,000
metal producer.
We have previously been invested

1016
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,960
in there.
We're not at the moment just on

1017
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,640
valuation grounds.
But yeah, I think there's a very

1018
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,480
good demand outlook and the
supply outlook is pretty limited

1019
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,800
as well.
So yeah, I quite like the Alcoa

1020
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:27,720
story.
I wish it was a cleaner way to

1021
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:29,800
play it from an Australian
perspective.

1022
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,040
We have previously owned MMI and
some of the books like names,

1023
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:38,040
but they've struggled to deliver
operational consistency through

1024
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:39,440
that asset.
And yeah.

1025
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,840
S 32 yeah S 32 might RIP
themselves apart sooner or later

1026
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,440
and and have a cleaner way of
playing that the whole alley

1027
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,680
supply chain.
Or or they'll just sell it to

1028
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:50,360
Alcoa.
Yeah.

1029
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,920
And put themselves of, yeah, the
aluminum business altogether.

1030
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,640
But yeah, TBA, yeah, they
definitely sell in Cannington.

1031
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:57,600
Hello.
Really.

1032
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,040
OK, Shopping block, Yeah.
I'll have to go go Sprint my

1033
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,880
ways as a consultant somewhere.
I can't do that.

1034
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,800
Alcoa plays into like many of
your themes as well, like the

1035
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,280
national security one as well
because they're they're the

1036
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:13,800
champion the the US name now.
So fascinating for for a number

1037
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,200
of reasons.
Yeah, absolutely.

1038
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,600
Who would buy Cannington That's.
There'd be, there'd be a bunch.

1039
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:23,000
I mean, it's yeah, there there's
they talk about the geotech

1040
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:24,400
issues all the time and all that
sort of stuff, but it's

1041
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,040
underground like, you know,
yeah, you can think of like the

1042
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,000
the very proficient kind of
underground people who maybe

1043
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,080
look at that asset and think I
thought that was looking.

1044
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:37,440
To turn it into an open pit
silver sort of zinc thing.

1045
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,520
I I think that they're that.
Would be a massive.

1046
00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:43,600
They've got, they've got some.
Yeah, they've got, they've got,

1047
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:45,400
yeah.
I don't know what their plan

1048
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,680
like options are, but I do know
that they're having more and

1049
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:49,200
more trouble in depth.
Yeah.

1050
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:53,080
Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely.
I think I mean, yeah, yeah, I

1051
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,680
used to work there probably
about 10 years ago now.

1052
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,720
And even back then there's some
amazing grades down.

1053
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,440
I think it was called the R4
taking myself back but down

1054
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:03,800
there.
But man, it was pretty hot and

1055
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,760
it was it was pretty rough down
there as a as a graduate

1056
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,720
geologist.
But the the grades just just

1057
00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:13,080
awesome that I mean, that's,
that's just been one of the the

1058
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,560
best assets in cash flow
machines in Australian mining

1059
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,200
history, I think.
And yeah, it was such a good

1060
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,320
time working there.
I just hope that someone takes

1061
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,440
over it that can maybe
reinvigorate it a little bit on

1062
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,600
a Obviously, Aaron's just up the
road with A1M, so we'll have to

1063
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,480
give him a call after this, see
what he thinks about silver and

1064
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:30,080
zinc.
Yeah.

1065
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,800
I mean, the last year must have
been bearing a bit of fruit for

1066
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,480
them both.
Those commodity prices have been

1067
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:38,480
pretty, pretty friendly to them.
If you like silver, you should.

1068
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:40,400
Is that Mariner next door to
him?

1069
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,880
That he's just, he's kind of,
he's never moved on, you know?

1070
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,160
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
I actually did some work on that

1071
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,320
as a as a geologist, but I mean,
it's pretty skinny, right?

1072
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:49,880
It's.
Skinny, but their study numbers

1073
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:51,320
are tidy.
I don't know how believable they

1074
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,080
are, but they're tidy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1075
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,360
Well, skinny with a thought,
yeah.

1076
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:58,160
Just flex the numbers.
It's all good.

1077
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,880
One company we haven't spoken
about because they fall in a few

1078
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:06,200
different buckets, but Trevor
mentioned technically proficient

1079
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,280
underground miners.
Bill Beaman Woodlawn has made,

1080
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,800
you know, come on sort of over
the last year ish and they're

1081
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,520
talking more about what they're
doing in WA.

1082
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:16,400
So have you, have you got a take
on them?

1083
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,520
It's not a company that have
done a huge amount of work on to

1084
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,200
be brutally honest.
Yeah, we the way that we invest

1085
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,560
is we, we don't sort of try and
focus on everything because we

1086
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,280
find that or we know that almost
100% of the returns come from

1087
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:30,520
what we own, not from what we
own.

1088
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,640
So we focus on really good new
opportunities and then making

1089
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,080
sure that the stocks that we
have in the portfolio, we just

1090
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,240
nail those and know exactly
what's going on.

1091
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,600
So yeah, DVP has never really
come across my screen.

1092
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:46,200
And I think our screening
process, I should say, not the

1093
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:47,520
computer screen that's been
there.

1094
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,680
It's the reason for that is just
value.

1095
00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:54,040
I've just, I've just really
struggled to see value or a lot

1096
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:59,440
of value in in Woodlawn, Sulphur
Springs and Bald Hill for

1097
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,920
various different reasons.
But I think Bill has done an

1098
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,880
amazing job over a long period
of time.

1099
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,240
And so I definitely wouldn't bet
against him.

1100
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:09,720
And I know a lot of very smart
funding managers who have

1101
00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:13,800
invested there.
But yeah, to me, the rocks just

1102
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:17,000
have always, there's always been
a bit of disconnect between the

1103
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,920
rocks and the valuation that the
market subscribe to it.

1104
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:22,760
And I think a big part of that
actually is that Billy's so good

1105
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:24,520
and he's got that, that really
good following.

1106
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:28,120
So it's probably credit to him
for this, you know, that it's

1107
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,000
always had, in my view, a bit of
a premium multiple, but

1108
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,000
unfortunately that's also
excluded it from our investment

1109
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:35,840
process.
But I think they did a site

1110
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,240
visit a couple of weeks ago or a
week ago and the feedback was

1111
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:40,800
pretty good in terms of the
woodlord ramp up.

1112
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,800
So hopefully they can get that
going.

1113
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,800
Last one for me 50 last 12
months.

1114
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,560
The best stock call you've made
and the worst stock call you've

1115
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,440
made.
Just in resources.

1116
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:54,840
Yeah, narrowed down for us.
Yeah, Yeah.

1117
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:58,200
Well, obviously I'm talking
about MI 6 a lot because you

1118
00:53:58,200 --> 00:53:59,440
always talk about your winners,
right.

1119
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:03,240
So yeah, that that'll probably
be probably be the best.

1120
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,640
What have I lost money on in
resources in the past 12 months?

1121
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:12,120
Which is I know my boss.
I know you could also be like

1122
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,800
something.
You should have pulled the

1123
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:16,840
trigger on, but you didn't, you
know, and then it ran away from

1124
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,720
you.
Oh gosh, I'm struggling to

1125
00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:25,880
think.
I haven't got one really wrong

1126
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:27,360
in resources for a while.
It's been a while.

1127
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:28,360
We're trying drinks actually
the.

1128
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:29,920
Market's just gone up.
Yeah.

1129
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,720
Oh, no, no, yeah, Metro mining,
yeah, yeah.

1130
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,280
Lost a bit of money on that that
over the past 12 months.

1131
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:43,600
Yeah.
I'm so I mean, I'm still very,

1132
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,680
very interested bystander.
I think there'll be a time to to

1133
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,760
go back in there and own that.
I just really want them to

1134
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,080
display some some operational
consistency.

1135
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:55,720
And there's a lot of, yeah, as
you guys have heard, there's

1136
00:54:55,720 --> 00:54:58,040
just so much happening in that
aluminium market and box lot in

1137
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,360
particular with Guinea.
So I think there's going to be a

1138
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,920
great opportunity to make some
money and there's some great

1139
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,320
assets out there that need to be
developed in the NT.

1140
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,960
So I'm really hopeful that we
can, yeah, invest back there

1141
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,200
again.
But yeah, that was, that was a

1142
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,280
pretty painful one.
Yeah.

1143
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:14,960
But I've, I've had some painful
ones, man.

1144
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:15,840
St.
Barbara.

1145
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,400
That.
Factory in the the Genesis

1146
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,280
takeover, this yeah, yeah.
That was.

1147
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:22,760
They're interesting again
though, They're like the deal

1148
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:24,840
they've done with the Chinese
and and whatnot.

1149
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,160
It's Canada is is kind of coming
together.

1150
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:29,640
Who would who would have kind of
thought so?

1151
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,800
Yeah, yeah, it's amazing what a
good gold price would do.

1152
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,240
Isn't it just 50?
It's always awesome chatting.

1153
00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:37,920
Appreciate you coming in after
your long journey home from from

1154
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,280
Sydney, so looking forward to
having you on next time.

1155
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:41,040
Yeah.
Thanks guys.

1156
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:42,000
Appreciate it.
Good catch up.

1157
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:47,480
How's the energy of 50 Love 50?
Always great to chat with 50,

1158
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:51,440
super insightful across a whole
host of commodities and love

1159
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:55,120
understanding how someone that
has a tough tough benchmark to

1160
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:58,480
beat in that evolving landscape
that doesn't even involve all of

1161
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,040
the resources space has to keep
adapting.

1162
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,200
So good to chat with him and
share that conversation with the

1163
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:05,800
money miners.
Thank you to our partners for

1164
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,120
making it possible.
Our awesome, awesome partners

1165
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,920
Interlinks, Sandvik Ground
Support, Exceed Capital who we

1166
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:16,320
had in the show Focus, the
platform by market tech and

1167
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:17,760
metals Hub.
Uduru money miners.

1168
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,280
Uduru.
Now remember, I'm an idiot.

1169
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,000
JD is an idiot.
If you thought any of this was

1170
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,520
anything other than
entertainment, you're an idiot

1171
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:28,040
and you need to read our
disclaimer.