Anglo Teck Mega Merger... and a Retail Revolt

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Anglo Tech, this is a massive
deal.

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You've got a merger of vehicles.
Anglo shareholders are going to

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get a special dividend paid out
four and a half billion U.S.

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dollars for closing.
They're targeting US $800

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million in annual synergies.
Kind of as big as it gets, the

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biggest announced deal in a
decade in our industry.

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It's kind of, it's phenomenal.
This week is the biggest mining

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deal in more than a decade.
JD, It's, it's us too.

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We're going to talk about Anglo
merging with tech, acquiring

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tech, however you want to frame
it.

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These are two mining behemoths.
And alongside us, we've got the

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wonderful James Nichols, who
we've we've roped in today

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because he's he's got some
expertise as it relates to some

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shareholder activism.
And there's been like some

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really, really interesting
dynamics happening at one of the

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my favorite companies.
I'm not very popular on the hot

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copper forum, I'll tell you
that.

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But yeah, but, but, but James,
you're going to, you're going to

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join us and share, share your,
your legal wisdom with all of

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us.
Your partner at Hamilton Lock.

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Yeah.
Thanks for joining us mate.

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No.
Well, it's a pleasure to be

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here.
I mean, seems to me that this is

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a first.
First, for many a. 1st is in a

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first for you or a first for a
lawyer coming on our show.

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I think both.
Yeah.

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You're normally quite reverse.
You're you're.

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You as a people.
You as a people?

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Yeah.
Me as the self anointed

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representative of the legal
fraternity?

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No, But I mean, yeah, so it's a
first.

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You have had, you know, lawyers
around the show.

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Yeah.
Defamation lawyers, notably.

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Good friends at the show, yeah.
And there was that Harvey

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Specter chap.
Yeah, yeah, handsome fellow.

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He was pretty astute.
He was pretty astute, yeah.

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He gave us some some good, some
good feedback on what fiduciary

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outs were all about back in the
Leonora days.

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No connection to you though.
No, not at all.

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But no, no, very grateful to
have the opportunity to be here.

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It's nice to peer behind the
curtains, see the proverbial

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sausage being made.
All righty, let's jump in.

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Like you said, Trev, Anglo Tech.
This is a massive deal.

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It's the the way it's sort of
come about the the history

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behind these companies behind
the deal is just sort of

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fascinating.
So to sort of set the scene for

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people a bit less familiar,
you've got a merger of vehicles.

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Anglo shareholders are going to
get a special dividend paid out

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four and a half billion U.S.
dollars before closing.

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They're targeting US $800
million in annual, annual

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synergies.
And the, the core reason why

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this deal has real sort of merit
to it is Coloisi and QB, an

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asset we actually spoke about
last week on the show and the,

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the potential synergies there.
So the, the market sort of liked

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it.
Anglo is up 9%, Tech up 11.

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Much more liking it on the sides
of Anglo shareholders than Tech,

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but it's a it's a pretty
phenomenal deal.

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What was your first date drove?
Mate, massive, these are two,

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two mining behemoths, both or
each of them have over 100 year

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histories behind them, like
very, very proud companies in

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their respective, you know,
countries where they they have

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either headquarters or, or, or
assets.

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It's kind of as big as it gets.
You know, like, like I said, the

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biggest announced deal in a
decade in our industry.

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It's kind of it's phenomenal.
The if you just look at the

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implied premium to tech, once
you account for the special

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dividends, it's, you know, it's
roughly 12%.

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It's, it's nothing in, in the
context of, of things here,

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right?
So, so hence the market likes it

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because there's also operational
synergies as well.

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Like you talked about, they put
up this slide and you've got the

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ability to now, now build a 15
kilometre kilometre conveyor to

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transport high grade Calwaza or
to feed the plant at QB.

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And they reckon they can uplift,
you know, copper production in

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the pro forma by 175,000 tonnes
of copper per annum.

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Actual synergies in mining, it's
it's kind of amazing.

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Actual synergies, new premium
merger like it doesn't have any

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of the hallmarks of a bad a bad
top of the cycle kind of deal,

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which you you do, you do
historically have seen when a

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major will get fund a giant
purchase price or something and

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then go on to regret it.
This is it's a it's a script

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deal.
Yeah, and premium to cut to the

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chase on the interloper type
question it, it makes it a, a

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tough deal to overcome, right,
Because the, the, the structure

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of of this one, if you're going
to come in and, and pay sort of

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30% plus on on top to take out a
tech, it's, you know, the, the

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economics of that sort of
outcome versus what what you're

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doing here as Anglo just super,
super hard to overcome.

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So I think that the risk to the
deal on that side of it is, is

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fairly limited and a huge amount
of credit I think needs to go to

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Anglo for this from where they
were 18 odd months ago sort of

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beaten up in the corner.
Everyone's sort of taken the mix

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saying they've sort of managed
their assets poorly.

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They're in a difficult
jurisdictions, difficult

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commodities, spread way too thin
to kind of being the the

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kingmaker here in a way in a
really interesting company that

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goes potentially from being
valued like a diversified 5 to 6

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times earnings to that elusive 8
to 12 times earnings that you

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get for a pureplay copper
company is pretty remarkable.

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And there's a lot of things that
need to go right.

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Like you see how much they talk
about checking that Canada

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investment approval box here
where management's going to be

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set up the the listings, the
governments, it's the the hoop

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jumping you have to do to get a
deal like this over the line is

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enormous, right?
Yeah.

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Well, we'll, we'll fair to to
James Nichols in a moment who's

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probably done a lot more
cross-border M&A than we'll ever

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touch in our lives mate.
But but in yeah, the way I kind

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of like evaluate some of that is
probability of an Interlope bar.

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I, I should, I'll bring up this
slide you can see here and it's,

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it's basically shows the capital
intensity of BH PS copper growth

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options in its current South
American portfolio.

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So this this slide was in the in
the deck that when they had an

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escalator site visit in November
last year.

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And like what you can see there,
the capital intensity of the

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majority of their copper growth
within their organic portfolio,

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it's going to cost BHP north of
$30,000 per tonne of incremental

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of incremental, you know, copper
growth that they want to have in

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capital to just bring that
online, right?

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And what so why is that slide so
important when you look at the

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capital intensity of BHP's
copper growth?

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Because because the Anglo deal
like it effectively values tax

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copper replacement value at
about $34,000 a tonne, right?

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That's, that's, that's well
below what the multiples of

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Antofagasta and Freeport.
If you, if you back out there,

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you know, the, the value per
tonne of copper production in

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those companies, you're more in
the realm of 50 to $60,000 per

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tonne.
So, so for BHP, like, I don't

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think it's unreasonable to think
that they'd be pretty interested

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in, in, in wanting, you know,
the incremental exposure to

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that, that extra copper
production because it's, it's

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pretty comparable on par with
their, you know, their own

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organic growth prospects.
But you get that copper, you

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know, immediately, yes, you have
to sink the, the capital

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immediately as well.
But you know, that's, it's the

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way I look at it, it's still
probably going to be cheaper to

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buy than it is to build just
based off the, the capital

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intensity and the multiple
supply here with, with both tech

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and Anglo.
So I think on a market multiple

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space, it's cheap to acquire and
build.

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So on a market multiple space,
you should, you should certainly

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have interest from the
interlopers here to, to, to, to,

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to have a crack.
However, in the, the, the, the,

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you know, the intangibles are a
lot of, it's really tricky to

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get a deal done here.
On the, on the tech side, you've

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got a winner that cable who is
supportive of this Anglo deal.

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But you know, would it be the
same if it was to go to a major

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and it gets a smaller chunk of
the pie?

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And then you've got that
investment Canada process like

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you talked about.
And then on the Anglo side,

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you've got all the complexities
with the South African

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government, which BHP is aware
of this time around.

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More than aware of.
Yeah.

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My view is like on valuation,
you should totally see, you

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know, interest from Interlope is
I think the complexities

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probably prevent it from
happening.

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There's a $330 million break fee
there, but it's a $50 billion

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deal.
That's, it's not a like, no, not

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a way.
I'm not going to stop things in

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the.
In the scheme of things, it's a

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rounding error.
Yeah, James, before we get you

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in on the, on the sort of time
frame that the 12 to 18 months

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that they've paced in, the one
sort of final thought on what

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you've just said there, Trev, is
that everything Anglo has done

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here to appease the the
government's in particular,

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obviously the the Canadian
government by having

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headquarters in Vancouver,
having senior management in

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Vancouver, all those sorts of
things are very hard for for a

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Rio or a BHB to achieve, which
which adds to the kind of

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barriers around that.
But if we zoom out to to just

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getting this deal done, James,
how do you kind of think about

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that 12 to 18 month time frame?
Like that is a long time.

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A lot can kind of go wrong.
You've been on the other side of

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the table for a lot of these
talks.

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Yeah.
So I mean, like 12 to 18 months

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is a long time the sun for sure.
And when you're you're thinking

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about if there are interloper
risk, I mean the duration for a

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transaction, the longer it goes,
the greater the interloper risk.

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The more time, you know, you
have commodity markets to

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change, the more time you have
bidders to sharpen their knives.

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And particularly if you've got
regulatory processes that start

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to go sideways, you know, for
whatever reason, including due

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to an intervention by a
potential rival bidder.

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Yeah.
So I, I, I think the, that the

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time frame presents a real risk
and it, and it compounds the

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risks of failure to complete by
virtue of some interloper, you

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know, I mean, what, what the
tech and Anglo deal, you know,

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doesn't necessarily achieve,
which is what is a huge dynamic

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that's in the mark at the
moment.

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Is this Americanisation, right?
So like people seeking NASDAQ

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exposure or some foot in the
ground in the States just

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because they know that in order
to have that slipstream in the

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new world order, you need to
have the backing of Trump and

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you need to have some form of
kind of US support one way or

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another.
So, you know, whilst this is,

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you know, a great deal in terms
of, you know, reconnecting old

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Commonwealth countries, it
probably doesn't quite fall for

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that.
And I think that you might see,

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you know, potential rival
bidders that either have that

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benefit or are able to achieve
that benefit, probably stepping

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into the fold.
Everyone, everyone wants the the

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multiple of of Freeport, right?
And why does Freeport have the

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multiple that they have?
Well, yes, it's the

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Americanization factor, but but
it's also the primary listing is

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the NYSE and they also have S&P
500 index inclusion.

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Why does that?
Well, it matters a lot in, you

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know, the whole world of kind of
passive stuff.

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So how do you, how do you kind
of get that?

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Well, I, I was actually
surprised to see in this deal

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that Anglo is going to keep the
the LSE as a primary listing.

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My prediction is in time that
will fall away.

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They've got to promise the world
to all these different disparate

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countries, the UK, Canada, you
know, South Africa, all at the

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same time.
Yeah, we're going to keep

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investing, blah, blah, blah.
Nothing's changing.

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But then once, once the deal's
done and completed, like, like

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the LSE is dead, like, let's
just submit it.

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The LSE is dead.
Anglo will leave the LSE.

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Eventually it will happen.
Yeah.

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I mean, I, I had to Google it
just before to, to sort of see

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00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,960
what the combined market cap of
the LSE was because we've, we've

222
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:04,960
sort of parroted this line for,
for a little while now.

223
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,160
It's still more than 3X times
the ASX.

224
00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:09,800
So we've got a bit of a ways to
go there.

225
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:14,800
But the, the trend of capital
flying away is important to, to

226
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,680
add to that point though, where
you want to get index and

227
00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:19,920
listing has to be a primary,
yeah, listing.

228
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,240
So it takes quite a few steps to
kind of get there.

229
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:24,520
I'll make a brief call on this
one.

230
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:26,640
I reckon.
I reckon this deal catalyses

231
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,320
multiple expansion in the
sector.

232
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,560
It's like it's, it's now like
it's now like very clear if you

233
00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:35,560
want more attributable
production of these commodities

234
00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:38,560
that you seemingly care a lot
about, higher multiples need to

235
00:11:38,560 --> 00:11:42,600
be paid to get hold of them.
And actually you mentioned the

236
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,640
call.
I tuned into that call 8:00 PM

237
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,440
last night, Perth time before
the call starts like the webcast

238
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,120
is blasting dancing in the
moonlight.

239
00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,760
I'm I'm I'm not joking.
It's hilarious, probably

240
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:56,880
probably because that's what all
the bankers and and the lawyers

241
00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:58,880
were doing right after the deal
was announced.

242
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,800
James, other other than the
wonderful prequel music, here's

243
00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,280
my other insightful take away.
So if you want to see an

244
00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,480
intelligent talking about
operational synergies, this is

245
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,920
what you've now got to call it.
Part of the strong industrial

246
00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,040
logic comes from.
The industrial logic of

247
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,000
combining click by the
industrial logic of it.

248
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,080
I think the industrial logic of
a transaction.

249
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,800
Industrial logic.
Yeah, I I thought synergies had

250
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,720
a had a pretty good ring to it,
but it turns out you can also

251
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,280
put the word industrial in front
of synergies and it also sounds

252
00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,720
more intelligent.
The most compelling industrial

253
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,440
synergies in the industry.
Of mining assets with industrial

254
00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,160
synergies is one of the most.
Most compelling industrial

255
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,520
synergies available from the
types of industrial synergies

256
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:41,040
that we're talking about.
Well, I mean, yeah, ASICS

257
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,440
traditionally had a problem with
the word synergies.

258
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,720
So perhaps you might see an
adoption in the Australian

259
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:47,480
market of the phrase industrial
logic.

260
00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,080
Do they have a problem with the
word synergies or they have a

261
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,480
problem when companies just
like, say what, yeah, we're

262
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,840
going to have $80 million of
synergies per annum based on

263
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:55,680
nothing other than a thumbs up?
Yeah.

264
00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:57,480
Well, I mean, synergies is the
red flag, right?

265
00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,520
But yeah, they've got a problem
with the numbers.

266
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,960
Yeah, that's fair enough.
All right, Well, yeah, Yeah,

267
00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,280
that's that's I think we're
gonna have a lot to talk about

268
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:09,800
in the future as this one
unfolds.

269
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,120
I, you know, I don't think it's
beyond the realm of

270
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,920
possibilities to see see things
kind of fire up from from here.

271
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,440
And and I, I certainly hope and
I really hope that there's

272
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:21,920
there's involvement of an
envelope and we have, we have

273
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,640
the making of a have a, have a,
a really interesting situation

274
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,720
on our hands to talk about over
the next, next 12 months.

275
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,760
I couldn't agree more mate.
I think we'll be speaking a lot

276
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,560
more about this deal.
Let's move on though to the

277
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,480
Capricorn warrior deal.
Give her a few sort of I can

278
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:36,520
set.
The scene if you want mate.

279
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:39,240
Set the scene for us, mate.
So we we spoke on the podcast

280
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,040
Capricorn came out with an
agreed deal to acquire Warrior

281
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,240
late July effectively all script
deal right and it was a market

282
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:49,800
standard control premium 29% to
to last 3035% of the 30 day

283
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,080
video app.
But if you yeah, one of the

284
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,120
points was if you had looked at
the time that Capricorn and

285
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,560
Morada entered the CI, like the
stock had ripped it, like, you

286
00:13:57,560 --> 00:13:59,560
know, it was basically sort of
triple the price since then.

287
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,280
So word, our shareholders were
really quickly frustrated by, by

288
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,920
what they thought materially
undervalued the company here.

289
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,640
They, they kind of, you know,
have banded together and you

290
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,280
know, you know, in a loose way
of if we've come to the

291
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,360
conclusions that they want to
provide voting intention

292
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:17,600
statements to vote, to vote
against the, the transaction.

293
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,960
A bunch of these have sort of
appeared online in, in recent

294
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:22,640
days.
And you know, I've, I've heard

295
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,080
numbers sort of, you know, in
that 1617% of total, total

296
00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,240
retail shareholders have
actually submitted to the board

297
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,040
the voting intention statement
to vote against the transaction.

298
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,480
Now, the company hasn't
acknowledged this yet, but you

299
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:37,160
know, you can still piece up,
piece together some of these

300
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,240
things from the forums online
and see, see photo evidence of

301
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,000
some of these voting intention
statements and I can flash them

302
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,840
up on the screen now 'cause
that's how readily available

303
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:47,520
they are.
I can tell you've rolled up your

304
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:47,920
sleeves.
Yeah.

305
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,040
So I'm, I'm mentioning to hear
your take on this.

306
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,200
Complicating the matter.
Further, it's actually just a

307
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,920
bit hot in this morning.
If you get this special seats

308
00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,400
fund Trium capital, they've
popped up and it's just it's

309
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,000
just M and AR Brad 6%
shareholding and worried are so

310
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,840
kind of all of these like pieces
together.

311
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,120
But they're just, they're just,
that's just bumpertrage, right?

312
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:07,680
Yeah.
Yeah.

313
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:09,720
Totally.
I know you love jargon.

314
00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:15,120
Yeah, now, now you well and I
know, I know you love a a a deal

315
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,440
with kind of complex, complex
characters and I.

316
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:22,040
Don't necessarily love it, just
seem to to attract complexity.

317
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,640
What the hell is going on here
like?

318
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,520
Well, I mean it, it's something
that we've been seeing probably

319
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:32,440
an increasing amount of, I mean,
you know shareholder activism M

320
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,200
and as nothing new, right like
send it time and time again.

321
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,720
You know, you think back to Nick
Bolton brisk, brisk connect, you

322
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,560
know, you think back to Solomon
Lew Country Rd.

323
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,040
David Jones.
It's a hallmark of basically any

324
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:52,120
M&A market, you know, even
Petronas and Ken and Dasian,

325
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,800
Genesis and and then.
There's there's varying levels

326
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,840
of sophistication with activism
varying well.

327
00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:59,720
Yeah.
Well, that is, and, and I think

328
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,080
that's the point is that, you
know, nowadays we're seeing

329
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:07,080
probably an increasing amount of
this, you know, coordinated in

330
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:13,440
quotation marks action by, you
know, the retail contingent of

331
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:18,120
the share register.
We can refer to it as

332
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,600
unsophisticated shareholder
activism and not using

333
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,680
unsophisticated in the sense of
the word, you know, the

334
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:29,400
pejorative, but unsophisticated
in the sense that there seems to

335
00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:34,280
be an adoption of kind of large
or institutional activist

336
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,960
shareholder tactics and seeking
to to apply those in a similar

337
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,240
manner, but without, you know,
necessarily informing themselves

338
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,280
as to how they're doing it or
taking legal advice.

339
00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,440
And and that's giving rise to,
you know, buried outcomes,

340
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,280
difficulties with the regulator
and challenges with with how

341
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,160
bidders engage with them.
It it's, it's super interesting.

342
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,760
Like I'm looking at word are
right now and I'm, I'm trying to

343
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:04,800
evaluate the probability of an
uplift here.

344
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,640
I, I, I turned to JD today and I
was like, wait, might even buy

345
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,480
some shares because it feels, it
feels pretty asymmetric at the

346
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,440
moment.
And why, like, why do I say

347
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,240
that?
It's, it's purely because like

348
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,319
these, these retail
shareholders, you know,

349
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:22,200
coordinating quotation, like not
coordinating, they haven't, they

350
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,560
haven't an, an influence in, in
the evaluation because, you

351
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,760
know, you, you think six 1718%
My God, they could block the

352
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,920
deal here.
Like if they're serious about

353
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,480
this voting intention.
Yeah.

354
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,280
And, and look, you know,
they're, they're, they're

355
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,440
looking back to previous
transactions and seeing, you

356
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,040
know, shareholders in similar
positions achieving that

357
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,120
outcome.
And probably thinking, look, if

358
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:46,960
we just hold tight and, you
know, face the front, we might

359
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:51,240
get a similar, similar result.
What previous transactions are

360
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,560
you talking about?
Well, I mean, I, it's hard to

361
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,840
decipher specifically, but you
know, there is some suggestion

362
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,360
that the peak Shangy transaction
that there was, you know, a

363
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,560
shareholder interaction or
engagement process that resulted

364
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,440
in that uplift and not just
commodity market change.

365
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,680
But you know, other very clear
examples, you know, including

366
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,200
something that we worked on a
couple of years ago was the

367
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,760
technology metals merger with
Australian vanadium, which I'm

368
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,760
not sure if you remember how
that played out, but there was.

369
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,800
TMTAVL Yeah, it was the the most
logical make talk about

370
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,960
industrial.
Industrial Logic.

371
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:29,560
There's some great industrial
logic between those.

372
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,320
Two, that was a project donated
by another project and they were

373
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,720
fighting over access.
So yeah, you know, it's no

374
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:41,520
different to AJV consolidation.
But yeah, like more and more I

375
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,440
think you're seeing in these in,
in this M and a environment

376
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,760
where acquirers are looking at
buying, not building, that

377
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,320
you're getting these early stage
exploration companies that are

378
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,880
still in that real ramp up phase
where they've, you know, they're

379
00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,280
running around doing Rd. shows,
they're promising the world.

380
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,960
They've got a a collection of
firm believer shareholders who

381
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,800
really think that this thing's
going to come off.

382
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,640
These shareholders are capital
constrained.

383
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,320
They're overly committed.
I think that, you know, this is

384
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,120
the, you know, 100 bagger.
And so they're really reluctant

385
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:20,840
to let go at any particular
price, to be honest with you.

386
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,400
But they're also not factoring
in a lot of things.

387
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,520
They're not factoring in the
realities of building a project

388
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,560
which, you know, it is obviously
cognizant of.

389
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,600
That's why they're acquiring
these exploration companies.

390
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,720
They're not factoring in the
dilutionary impact that will

391
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,440
arise as a consequence of that
project development phase.

392
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,400
And so, yeah, they are, they're,
they're fervent and they're

393
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,200
committed and they're dedicated.
They're looking at past

394
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,400
transactions.
They're adopting these playbooks

395
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,840
and and seeking to go about
trying to achieve a similar

396
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:57,440
outcome.
With with TMTAVL, you had a

397
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,000
pretty lengthy list of of
shareholders who.

398
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,400
Effectively submitted a a voting
intention to vote against the

399
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,120
transaction.
Now the deal, the deal still got

400
00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:08,280
done.
There was an uplift, wasn't

401
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:09,680
there?
Like how did, how did it?

402
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:10,480
How did it all come?
Together.

403
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,160
Well, there was, but it's
important to kind of remember

404
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:13,920
the specifics of the kind of
particular transaction.

405
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:18,440
I mean, I am, I, I actually
brought in the, the, the scheme

406
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,040
booklet from the TMTAVL
transaction.

407
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:21,720
So here you go.
How many?

408
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:22,800
How many spare ones of these do
you?

409
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:28,080
Have probably too many.
I brought this in because there

410
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,320
is a section in this, this
booklet was this was the booklet

411
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:37,200
that was released after the 1st
court hearing including an

412
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:38,920
experts report.
Now this is an important piece.

413
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,320
The experts report said it was
not fair but reasonable, but

414
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,440
obviously still in the best
interest of shareholders.

415
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,520
The expert is, yeah, is able to
conclude, but it had this long

416
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,280
list of shareholders in there,
each holding, you know, between

417
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:56,560
0.01% and, you know, 0.9.
You know, there was a couple of

418
00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,480
single digits in there, but a
long list of shareholders who

419
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,360
basically been rallied on this
kind of social media forum.

420
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:06,720
I can't remember.
I think they moved to Signal or

421
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,440
something, you know, really
whichever one ASIC is not

422
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,080
allowed to enter because you
know, ASIC can jump into your

423
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,920
social media now, says ASIC has
joined the chat.

424
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,360
Does it actually?
No, no, no, definitely.

425
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:21,680
I mean, there's there was the
they got this group, sorry, I

426
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,040
digress, but they got this group
called the ASX pump

427
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,280
organization.
I mean, if you're gonna have a

428
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:27,560
name of a chat, don't call it
that.

429
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,080
Yeah, yeah.
But it, it, it's set at the top

430
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,920
as ASIC had joined, you know,
ASIC joined the chat and of

431
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,040
course they didn't believe it.
So they kept talking.

432
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,200
But no ASIC is able to join kind
of social media chats now.

433
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,000
And because a lot of these, you
know, Signal and WhatsApp, for

434
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,160
example, encrypted, they're
deleted in 24 hours or seven

435
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,360
days.
So regulators have a real

436
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:52,400
difficult problem with kind of
evidentiary things.

437
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,520
So they can jump in nowadays.
Anyway, I think in the TMT

438
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,160
scenario, they were, it was
Signal or something, they were

439
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:05,240
coordinated, but again, they had
circulated this basically fill

440
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,960
in the blanks style truth and
takeover statement saying, you

441
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,480
know, my name is this, I hold
this many shares, I commit to

442
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,360
vote in favour or vote against
this scheme.

443
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,480
You know, a voting intention
statement, a voting intention

444
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,200
statement.
But The thing is, is that these

445
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,520
kinds of statements are not
intended to be filled out as a

446
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,760
comprehension exercise.
They're intended to demonstrate

447
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,880
someone's, you know, well
informed and well advised

448
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,600
position, their awareness of the
law, their awareness that they

449
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,200
are indeed a market participant
for the purposes of truth and

450
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,840
tag of this policy, which really
only captures substantial

451
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,920
shareholders.
It doesn't capture the rats and

452
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,280
mice or or non professional and
non institutional shareholders.

453
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,040
So just because you write the
magic incantation on a piece of

454
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,320
paper does not necessarily mean
that it gives rise to some

455
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,720
binding or enforceable position.
So what did what did ASIC is

456
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,000
that what ASIC came to the
conclusion of in relation to the

457
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,920
TMT writing intention
statements, it said they were

458
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,920
not, they were effectively not
valid to be interpreted as.

459
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,520
An, I mean statement, again, it
puts the bid in the target of a

460
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,040
difficult position because they
get, you know, they've announced

461
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,320
the transaction, they haven't
released the scheme book yet,

462
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,760
they haven't released the
experts report, but they're

463
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,600
getting, you know, 1020 these
kind of statements that a lot of

464
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,360
the time they're filled out
incorrectly or they're not

465
00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:27,000
effective and they're forced to
contend with, well, you know, do

466
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,840
we have a disclosable event?
ASIC tells us they're non

467
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,760
forcible, but we're getting all
these kind of intentions from

468
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,640
people that we can't identify
whether they're shareholders or

469
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,040
not.
So it makes it a really

470
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,040
difficult scenario for the
target in that circumstance as

471
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,360
well as the bidder.
But the bigger problem is is

472
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,600
that the bidder and the target
can't necessarily engage with

473
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,280
these shareholders prior to the
release of a scheme booklet and

474
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,600
an independent experts report.
Right.

475
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,240
So all of these shareholders who
are grumpy right now, the

476
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,480
management board of of Warrior
are prohibited from like having

477
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,440
individual conversations with
them to an extent.

478
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,920
To a degree, I mean, their hands
are tied for sure.

479
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,600
I mean, of course if someone
picks up the phone and calls the

480
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,120
office, you've kind of got to
speak to them.

481
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,560
But they can't be going on and,
you know, laying out and

482
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,880
extolling the great virtues of
the transaction in an unbalanced

483
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,400
way.
Because ultimately then the

484
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,720
court or ASIC will have a
problem with the fact that, you

485
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,000
know, the booklet here is
includes for and against really

486
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:27,680
detailed reasons, risks a whole
lot of information and it cannot

487
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,960
be reduced to a single
conversation where the managing

488
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,240
director tries to convince 1
shareholder 5 bullet points

489
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:34,680
while they should vote in favour
of the scheme.

490
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,920
So their hands are tied.
They don't know who they're

491
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,400
dealing with or how to deal with
them.

492
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,440
It can be quite challenging.
Yeah.

493
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,640
So even though, even though ASIC
basically says these voting

494
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,160
intention statements from retail
don't actually kind of qualify

495
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,880
because because you you have to
be a sophisticated investor in

496
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,320
order to have a.
Substantial shareholders

497
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,760
technically, yeah.
So you have to felt 5% or more,

498
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,400
right, right.
Well, the interesting dynamic

499
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,320
with these like these groups are
still bundling together.

500
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,720
If, if they, if they think the
way you describe, like, you

501
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,360
know, they think the project's
worth so much more stand alone,

502
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:09,680
even if there's not another, you
know, value or creative option

503
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,720
on the table, like another
acquire or anything like that.

504
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,040
But they think there's, there's
sky high value on a stand alone

505
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,440
basis and they've they may be
serious about still voting no if

506
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,600
the deal progresses, you know,
at their current implied, you

507
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,440
know, price or merger ratio or
whatever.

508
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,280
So then boards might still take
them seriously and provide an

509
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,440
uplift to to get the peace.
Well, they have to be dealt with

510
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,800
or taken seriously at some
point, right?

511
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,160
And so I mean, the way that
bidders and targets tend to to

512
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,520
deal with these situations is
that they've got to get the

513
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:40,960
information into the hands of
the shareholders.

514
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,560
They've got to say, look, you
know, we know everything that's

515
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,160
been said previously, This is
why the deal makes sense.

516
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,080
These are the risks of the deal
going ahead.

517
00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:51,320
These are the risks of if the
target remains a stand alone

518
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,120
entity.
And so until they have that

519
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:54,960
information, that's difficult to
have a very informed

520
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,600
conversation with their holders.
So they give the information to

521
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,600
the shareholders.
It includes an independent

522
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,200
valuation that's separate to
what the board's saying, that's

523
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,400
separate to what the bid is
saying.

524
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,960
It's an independent assessment.
Now, let's not go into your

525
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,640
personal views regarding the
veracity of independent expert

526
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,040
reports, but.
Let's shout out BDO who's doing

527
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,120
this one.
But but it, it's got to be

528
00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:18,920
remembered that shareholders put
a lot of value in an independent

529
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,240
technical assessment and
independent valuation.

530
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,360
And so that's very important as
well.

531
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,000
And then, of course, if, if even
after that and, and, and, and

532
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,440
that was really the what, what
was the trick in the TMTAVL

533
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,400
outcome is that it wasn't, it
was declared not to be fair.

534
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,160
So ultimately it felt that a
price increase was necessary and

535
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,520
warranted in order to convince
the shareholders in addition to

536
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:44,600
the information that was
provided.

537
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,800
So it, it really pivot on how
that IR comes out.

538
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,600
And you know, that'll be really
important to see.

539
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,320
It'll be important to see what
the detail is in there,

540
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,360
important to see the risks.
The remaining standalone entity,

541
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,840
the other tricks obviously
available to to bidders is to

542
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,360
come out and do best and final.
And so that's what Schenke's

543
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:04,600
done on on peak.
They've done a price increase,

544
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,440
you know, a modest price
increase, but then they've come

545
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,840
out and gone best and final.
And ultimately, you know,

546
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,520
shareholders do come to an
economic rational position

547
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,640
eventually.
Once they, once the emotions

548
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,920
been taken out of it, once
everyone settled down, once

549
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,640
everyone's had a read, yeah,
they tend to end up in the right

550
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,720
place.
So if yeah, like what would be

551
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,360
your prediction, right?
If there's independent expert

552
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,360
report, I think he's due later
this month and it says it says

553
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,720
valuations fair and reasonable,
right?

554
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,080
Do you actually think it'd be
unlikely to be a kicker here?

555
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,440
Well, then it then it'll come
down to an education piece on

556
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,040
the shareholder base.
And you know, it's not like this

557
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,960
thing that they changed their
view, but it's saying these are

558
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,640
the reasons for and against.
And you know, if the experts

559
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,040
form that view, then surely it's
open to the shareholders come to

560
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,600
a similar.
Position I reckon, I reckon, I

561
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,240
reckon I'll take the other side.
You know if I reckon, even if

562
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,000
the independent expert report
says that it's fair and

563
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,880
reasonable there's it's still
more likely than not that there

564
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,840
could be a kicker purely because
you aggravate that like these

565
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,200
shareholders are already mad
they're upset, they're pissed

566
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,640
and you tell them you tell them
I've got to educate you on why

567
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,720
your view on valuation is wrong
Look at the independent expert

568
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:17,680
report.
They'll be even more pissed

569
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,040
they'll like they'll revolt in a
big way.

570
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,760
So I actually think, I think an
uplift is, is more probable than

571
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,120
not irrespective of the expert.
Yeah.

572
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:27,720
And, and look, I mean, I, I
don't disagree.

573
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,040
I've, I've seen plenty of
situations involving kind of an

574
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,920
irrational response.
I mean, I remember it was the

575
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,320
Nexus takeover by 7 Group
Holdings.

576
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,720
I don't know if you remember
that in 2015.

577
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,440
No, Ed.
Don VoLTE is chairman of Seven

578
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:47,040
Group Holdings and chairman of
Nexus Energy and managed to

579
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,760
procure a a takeover bid that he
said he wasn't aware of for for

580
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:57,040
Nexus and he politely recused
himself, but that that takeover

581
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,520
bid was announced or the deal
was the merger was announced at

582
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,920
the same time they acquired all
the secured debt in Nexus and I

583
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,280
think they offered them two
cents a share.

584
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:09,840
It had been trading at like 6
cents.

585
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,240
So because the debt was
maturing.

586
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,920
And so they offered them two
cents a share.

587
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,600
And, you know, faced with
oblivion, right, faced with

588
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,760
utter destruction and
obliteration, shareholders still

589
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,720
voted that down.
And so they went from

590
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,400
potentially getting two cents a
share to receiving zero cents in

591
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,040
the dollar.
They went through a voluntary

592
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,240
administration process.
Wow.

593
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,360
So yeah, they're, I mean,
particularly in circumstances

594
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,080
which aren't handled properly or
appropriately by the bidder or

595
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,320
target, there's a lot of emotion
and it's sometimes hard to

596
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,800
unscramble the egg and unpick
everything.

597
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,680
At the end of the day, they're
the owners of the business to a

598
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,520
degree, to A to a varying
degree.

599
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,120
So they can choose their own
kind of fate, yeah.

600
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,000
And they're entirely entitled to
do so.

601
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,840
What?
What are the other types of

602
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,320
activist shareholders out?
There.

603
00:29:58,320 --> 00:29:59,680
Yeah.
Well, I mean you've always got

604
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,520
like PE strategics who will you
know, be there.

605
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,960
They're they're kind of almost
the M&A initiators or the

606
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,120
originators, so.
You had RCF in the case of

607
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,360
TMTAVL.
Yeah.

608
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,600
I mean, you know, RCF, Taurus,
Appian, all these kind of

609
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,040
groups, they're taking portfolio
positions with a view to, you

610
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,120
know, maybe 10 year investment
horizon.

611
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,480
But there does come a point when
they need to realise that value

612
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,600
for for the LP investors, right.
So the initiating M&A or looking

613
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,240
for kind of M&A that makes sense
that it can kind of trigger an

614
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:34,640
exit that's always going to be
there.

615
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,800
So there is a degree of activism
from that kind of pre-existing

616
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,640
committed capital.
And that's that's always going

617
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,880
to be that dynamic's been there
for a lot of time.

618
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,960
You know, there's greenmailers,
rival bidders, they're always

619
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,880
going to be there too.
If you think about Hancock

620
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,360
popping up on the register of a
zoo of minerals when SQ Herman

621
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,600
made that proposal and you know
that they weren't looking to

622
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,480
necessarily block the deal.
They were looking for some way

623
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,560
through and they managed to get
there by joint bidding there

624
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,360
with, with SQM.
I mentioned Petronas and Kin

625
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:09,800
before.
You know, they, they've

626
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,480
obviously got form in that area
form.

627
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,640
And then, you know, as you're
seeing on on Warador and in, in

628
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,280
most transactions, you've got,
you know, the arbitrage funds

629
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,240
coming in and out of the stock.
Now the degree to which they're

630
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,440
activists is, you know, can be
seen.

631
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,040
So you, you know, you've got
people like Bazza and, and other

632
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,800
kind of more passive investors
that are just looking to either,

633
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,560
you know, pick the the arbitrage
yield and, and, and try to make

634
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,440
that out.
Whereas you've got others who

635
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,040
are more fervent and engaged,
they're going to give out

636
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,280
statements of intention whether
they're going to vote in favour

637
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,600
or accept.
So, yeah, I mean, there's

638
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,840
there's a full raft of kind of
shareholder activists that play

639
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,960
in the field when it comes to
M&A transactions and it makes

640
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:55,280
for a pretty interesting chess
board.

641
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,280
But yeah, the advent of
unsophisticated shareholder

642
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,520
activism has been really
interesting.

643
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,000
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm, I'm intrigued.

644
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,680
I want to.
I want to be a part of it.

645
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,920
I think you already are a part
of it, all the emails you're

646
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,840
receiving.
So if, if these retail guys

647
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,800
actually wanted to be
sophisticated right now, what

648
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,200
should they do?
Like, if they like, what is a a

649
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:19,920
more thoughtful strategy?
Should they?

650
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,400
Should they like, actually say
we are organised?

651
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,600
I mean, to be perfectly honest
for you, I'm I'm probably not

652
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,520
going to way too far into giving
legal advice.

653
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,720
Yeah, yeah, to to the no, but I
mean on the great hallmarks of

654
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,240
of these kind of shareholder
groups is the fact that they

655
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,240
don't get legal advice.
And you know, if they if they

656
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,560
were getting legal advice,
they'd understand the veracity

657
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,840
of some of these documents that
they're passing around.

658
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,160
Or if they were getting legal
advice, they'd probably

659
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,920
understand that, you know, the
the, the consequence of what

660
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,440
they're doing actually gives
rise to the liability and

661
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,280
exposure and to obligations
Associating in this way if

662
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,720
you're over 5% means you should
be lodging A substantial holding

663
00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,720
notice.
I mean, if you look at it was a

664
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,480
Deutsche battle on and and Ken
even acknowledged the fact that

665
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,680
by virtue of their kind of joint
position at a substantial

666
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,520
holding.
So there's the one thing I'd

667
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,240
probably be suggesting to
shareholders and looking to try

668
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,680
to play in the space alongside
more sophisticated or kind of

669
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,920
well worn players is to be
getting advice.

670
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:23,760
But no, it's not going to
happen.

671
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,040
You might watch a few potties or
yeah.

672
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,320
Well, if they're watching this
one I'm hoping to get the inside

673
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,240
steer on, I apologise.
I almost can.

674
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,680
I look at the camera for that.
One, the more irrational the

675
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,480
shareholder base like the higher
probability they actually have

676
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,320
to agitate for an uplift as
well.

677
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,520
Like absent independent expert
report like the more irrational

678
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,240
they are like the better their
chances.

679
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,120
Here I'm drawn to the situation
because of their irrationality.

680
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,520
But, but but The thing is you're
talking about what a disparate

681
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,840
group of like 20 plus
shareholders, right.

682
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,560
And so it doesn't take much for
that number or that shareholder

683
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,480
percentage to winnow and
therefore them to not be as

684
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,160
formidable as they once were.
And the closer you get to the

685
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,440
scheme vote, you know, if the
companies are confident in the

686
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,600
valuation, the experts report
and the experts assessment, the

687
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,800
shareholders are going to
realise that if they take this

688
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,360
thing all the way up to the line
and they drop the ball, the

689
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,639
share price plummets, right?
What are they going to do then?

690
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,880
Yeah, so the calling the bluff
thing that This is why the

691
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,480
irrationality thing.
Like, I actually think a lot of

692
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,000
them will think that on a
standalone basis, if the deal

693
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,159
goes away, that their shares
will be worth more.

694
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:31,360
Like I, I do think a lot of them
believe that.

695
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,600
So I don't, I actually, I take
them at face value that they

696
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:35,800
will we'll vote no, I don't, I
don't.

697
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,639
Like, I do think there's a
proportion of people who will,

698
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:39,639
you know, want to run the
gauntlet and it's kind of a

699
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:41,159
bluff until the last minute or
whatever.

700
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,560
But I, I do think there's like a
sufficiently large like portion

701
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,600
of people who like, we'll,
we'll, we'll do what you

702
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,239
described in 2015.
Like, you know, I don't know,

703
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,159
like and.
That was a very aggressive play

704
00:34:53,159 --> 00:34:55,920
by by SGH.
Yeah.

705
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,640
And I think they thought, well,
you know, let's just pay $0.02

706
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,800
to to play and, yeah, and see
where this goes into APA.

707
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,600
They vote this down.
And yeah, sure, there's, you

708
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,800
know, the minor victory and
maybe they're popping Prosecco

709
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,840
or whatever, but as soon as they
get to the next cap raise,

710
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,080
what's that going to be at?
And you know, where's the price

711
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:14,840
go after that?
All right, James, now to the

712
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,680
part where you're probably not
going to give us anything

713
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,000
because we're going to ask for
your opinions on a bunch of

714
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,200
corporate actions and.
I can't help myself usually, but

715
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:24,520
I'm going to be probably quite
restrained.

716
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,000
Yeah, it's.
Probably wise for business, but

717
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,680
it's not going to stop us from
asking you.

718
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,760
Great control mate.
We've got to write a few things.

719
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,200
A to F.
Yeah, we've got a few topics to

720
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:35,920
get through.
All right, let's start this one

721
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,600
up.
Going to the majors, BHB and

722
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,080
Rio, we're going to grade them
in the context of how they're

723
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,920
sort of looking following this
Anglo tech deals.

724
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,680
So take it any which way you
like.

725
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:48,680
Trev, do you want to kick us
off, mate?

726
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:51,240
I think they've, yeah, I think,
I think it's an interesting

727
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:54,880
thing to grade like those guys
because Tech, Tech and Anglo

728
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,680
were the 2.
Like they're the in the cohort

729
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,120
of the majors.
These are the, the targets, the

730
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,080
most, you know, the targets in
recent history.

731
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,240
We saw that when when when
Glencore tried their like at

732
00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:06,240
Tech and we saw that when BSB
tried their like at, at Anglo.

733
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:10,680
So part of the scuttlebutt also
regarding Jacob's departure of

734
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,360
Rio Tinto was, yeah, the fact
that maybe the board had a, a

735
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,480
more progressive view on doing,
doing a big deal.

736
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,440
And one of the big deals that
was on the table that could have

737
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,520
been acted upon was was the tech
opportunity.

738
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,960
And you know, that wasn't of of
interest to Yucca, apparently.

739
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,680
And then, you know, if you think
of the same kind of dynamic with

740
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,200
BHP, they botched their attempt
for for Anglo, right?

741
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,480
So I think, I think, I think I
have to rate both of them as C

742
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,960
because these are two, two
mining behemoths, BHP Rio.

743
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,240
And when you're a behemoth,
you've got inertia and inertia

744
00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:45,120
is the energy of just being
opportunistic in deal making.

745
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,160
Both organisations I think
should figure out how how they

746
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,720
can be more nimble to the big
opportunities and act decisively

747
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:55,400
like I don't I'm not gonna not
gonna like rate them poorly for

748
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,120
not doing a deal.
Like, you know, sometimes not

749
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:58,880
doing a deal is the the wise
thing to do.

750
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,120
But yeah, but here we might have
effectively a deal that they

751
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,200
can't get in on, which might
mark multiple lows.

752
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,760
And they could have been
opportunities for them to get,

753
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,440
you know, get access to the
assets that would have

754
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:11,720
meaningfully moved the dollar
for them.

755
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:13,920
Yeah, I had to say for this one
as well.

756
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,440
M&A time and time again is value
destructive in any industry, let

757
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,840
alone that the mining industry
might not be good for for

758
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,160
business, James.
But I think that's, that's sort

759
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,200
of grounded in, in a lot of sort
of history the way I kind of see

760
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,000
it.
The HP is kind of interesting.

761
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,520
Perhaps Mike Henry had one eye
on, on the door already given

762
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,560
his sort of signaled he's at the
end of his tenure and on the Rio

763
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,080
side of things that were clearly
at a clash at the top level.

764
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,520
Hence Jakob sort of left.
So I had to say for this one as

765
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,840
well because can't criticize a
company necessarily for not

766
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,640
doing M&A, but I think there is
a bit of a risk that they they

767
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,760
look a bit ruefully on tech in
in particular.

768
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,240
That said, it would have been
pretty hard to get get a deal

769
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:59,040
done, get a truck one in there.
Well, I mean, it might be AC for

770
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,200
now, but they might be allowed
to reset the exam, right?

771
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:02,000
You know?
Yeah, exactly.

772
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:03,840
Exactly.
You reserve your full grade

773
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,960
until the end, but they're gonna
inevitably pay.

774
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:07,760
Probably pay more than.
Yeah.

775
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,800
I mean there's for sale signs on
both companies now and there's,

776
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,440
you know, there's a, an opening
price.

777
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,720
Next up, Guinea, they are
demanding that Rio builds

778
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,200
downstream of the processing or
some sort of pellet plant in

779
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,480
country Prav.
I was.

780
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,200
I was struck by some of these
comments from the Ghanaian

781
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,680
Minister Ismael Nabe.
Here's a couple of quotes.

782
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,680
We want to build a refinery in
Guinea.

783
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,760
That's our game plan.
We're going to build refineries,

784
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:36,840
be it for bauxite or for iron
ore, he said.

785
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,960
Guinea is like the West of
Australia, like the Pilbara 50

786
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,800
years ago.
We want to develop, we want to

787
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,840
transform locally.
We want to use this money to

788
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:45,800
develop other sectors like
agriculture, education,

789
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,640
infrastructure, what are graded.
I think it's AB like I think I'd

790
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,920
do the same if I were the
Canadian government on this one.

791
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,440
You absolutely want as much
value out of of the process.

792
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,560
I think it's you know, like we
WA never got as far as having

793
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:02,880
having having having much like
building downstream for our iron

794
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,160
ore exports.
Maybe Guinea will have a a bit

795
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,320
more a bit more of a chance of
capturing some of the value add

796
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,480
that comes from the the steel
making process.

797
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,000
He's.
Definitely pushing the boat out,

798
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,320
isn't he?
I think he's he's searching for

799
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,920
more relevant since that
transition from Biden to Trump.

800
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,040
A lot of a lot of sort of
interesting developments across

801
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,040
Africa.
I think the timing from Guinea

802
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,240
is quite right.
You know they've they've

803
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:29,400
incentivized $35 billion of
CapEx in their country.

804
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,880
That is I think if we talk about
every bit of gold CapEx we've

805
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,200
ever spoken about in this show
that combined doesn't even make

806
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:41,240
up the money being spent right
now to bring SIM Andu online.

807
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:43,800
So it's it is huge and obviously
they want a bit more of it.

808
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,600
You struggle to give it an A
because I don't totally see that

809
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,080
the benefits run down to the
average Ghanaian person just

810
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,760
yet.
But the, the statements you read

811
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,160
out there and the, the broader
speech that was given, you know,

812
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,040
the, the intentions of a quite
pure, let's see if they can sort

813
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,560
of follow through on this.
I don't think Rio will be

814
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,400
shocked by this either, though.
And they're sort of signaled

815
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,280
that they're going to do a study
and look at a pellet plant and

816
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,040
these sorts of things.
So we'll sort of see where it

817
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:13,480
ends up.
I got one for you now mate.

818
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,200
Surprise you with this one.
So Aloka spending production

819
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,760
activities at Academy and the
the SR2 kiln due to subdued

820
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,800
demand for mineral sands.
So Aloka stock fell 13% on the

821
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,720
day on the focus charts you can
see up the mineral sands market

822
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:30,040
is in a tricky place right now.
Aloka's doing what they they

823
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:34,200
need to do to restore market
dynamics to be a bit bit

824
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,880
healthier in their zircon
retail, synthetic retail kind of

825
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:38,800
markets.
But what's not obvious when you

826
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,640
just look at Aloka, they've got
got $1.2 billion in inventories

827
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,200
on their balance sheet.
So that's, this is, this is

828
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,760
finished product effectively,
that's just, they've just been

829
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,440
building up and accumulating
because the market is not, is

830
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,120
not in a place where they can
sell it for a, a price that is

831
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,240
higher than their cost.
So they've just been building

832
00:40:56,240 --> 00:40:59,800
inventories.
That's it's a it's staggering

833
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,880
number, staggering number.
You know, you know, the market's

834
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,480
pretty, you know a bad place
just by looking at Lucas

835
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:05,560
inventories at any point in
time.

836
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,720
Is this you stocking the market
for Lioness to make the bid?

837
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,360
I think lioness should I'm I'm
I'm I'm totally all for.

838
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,680
I think the, I think the
industrial logic of that is very

839
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:18,440
sad.
Yeah.

840
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,960
So any, any I, I look right into
this one.

841
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,800
I give it a, a, a bee.
Hands are tied.

842
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,120
They're doing like supply
discipline is required.

843
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,400
So, you know, they don't want,
they need to do.

844
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,000
And they're a big enough
producer to have an influence

845
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:29,880
here.
Yeah.

846
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,640
I mean it's not all bad because
they have this quote UN quote

847
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,480
inventory.
They can still meet their

848
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,400
contractual agreements.
It's not as if you just turn off

849
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,560
the mine there and your cash
flow kind of stops, albeit not

850
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:42,800
the best cash flow, so.
It's.

851
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,560
It's cash positive in a sense of
the the share price comes off

852
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,520
massively, but.
They've already been shown

853
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,720
supply discipline in the fact
that they've clearly been

854
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,320
selling less into the market by
virtue of the fact that

855
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:54,920
inventories have been building
pretty substantially.

856
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,080
So yeah, like it's just, yeah.
The, the real negative read

857
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,800
through on this is these
products, the, you know, the

858
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:06,760
titanium and the pigment
ultimately and the various other

859
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:11,800
downstream byproducts, you know,
they strongly follow demand for

860
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,640
construction, for building, for
paints, the consumer goods

861
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,320
around the world.
So it's a pretty ominous warning

862
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,160
of the direction the world is
going if demand for these things

863
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,760
is, is drying up and being
awfully weak because it's

864
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,680
traditionally just kind of
followed global GDP in a sense.

865
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,720
So that's a bit of a dark cloud
on on the horizon, but a bit out

866
00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:34,920
of our pay grade here.
All right, Genesis received

867
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,160
approval from the mines
department for stage 1 mining

868
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,800
proposal at Tower Hill.
So I read the announcement

869
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,480
headline got excited.
Genesis got an approval to, to

870
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,080
relocate the train terminus
Tower Hill's underway, But it's

871
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,520
not quite that this is approval
of mine stage 1, which is just

872
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:50,520
mining to the West of the train
line there.

873
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,000
There's, there's actually an
existing pit there as well.

874
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,480
And they're, they're doing what
they can without, you know what,

875
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,840
while the trading line is still
there, they, they are advancing

876
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,880
agreements with rail users to
relocate effectively, you know,

877
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,240
shortening the rail line as
required for stage 2.

878
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,520
And they're expected to be
completed by the end of this

879
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,040
calendar year.
Are rated ABI think things are

880
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,320
moving in the right direction.
Tower Hill seems to be on track

881
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,560
so.
Yeah, I gave it an AI think they

882
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:18,880
they always had Tower Hill just
far enough in the distance so

883
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,000
that people didn't really bake
it into the assumptions and

884
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,120
didn't kind of care about it.
But they're clearly moving one

885
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,720
step closer and they've got big
ambitions which they're

886
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:31,680
delivering on bit by bit.
And you know, this is Stage 1.

887
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,720
Stage 2 will will come in in due
course.

888
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:35,160
Do you remember?
They'll kind of get there.

889
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,920
Remember back in the back in the
battle for Leonora, Yeah, like

890
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,520
Genesis, Genesis original
agreement.

891
00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:45,120
Well, I'd say original, but it
was once they once they agreed

892
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,080
to buy the project instead of
doing the scheme and spin out.

893
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,200
So in that, in that deal, there
was, it was like $60 million of

894
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,880
Genesis shares back then that
were dollar each 60 million in

895
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,280
Genesis shares, which were
contingent upon first or being

896
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,440
produced out of Tower Hill
because there was the

897
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,000
uncertainty.
So that was like kind of

898
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,000
contingent consideration out of
the equation that disappeared

899
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:08,960
when Silverlight came in.
They just, they brought that

900
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,680
forward to kind of compete with
Silverlights bid all all the

901
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,200
likes.
James Nichols, what do you, what

902
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,120
do you, what do you think of,
you know, contingent forms of

903
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,680
consideration?
And I'll, I'll even speak a bit

904
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,280
more broadly than just
contingent consideration,

905
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,480
contingent value rights.
Well, no, I mean, I think you

906
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:27,840
can call it continued
consideration.

907
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,800
Let's not get involved in
taxonomy.

908
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,080
But yeah, I mean, it's an
interesting, it's always an

909
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,800
interesting proposal.
I mean, I'll talk about it a

910
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,640
fair bit.
I think any deal team, when

911
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,760
you're trying to come up with
ways to bridge the value gap,

912
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,360
you're always banding around
these kinds of exotic forms of

913
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,280
instrument that are going to
solve the day and make your own

914
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,600
seem really smart.
But before not you've just

915
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,360
agreed to either, you know,
split the difference or, you

916
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,760
know, bring forward as they did
in that that instance, the

917
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,000
contingency and just pay it out.
That's not to say that there

918
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,600
isn't there isn't room for these
forms of instruments.

919
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,320
I mean, indeed, they do what
they're designed to.

920
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,960
They put a value on some form of
contingent liability or asset

921
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,640
and try to ascribe value to that
or, you know, deduct it from the

922
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:24,800
the overall purchase price.
It I just find it interesting

923
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,840
that that kind of divergent in
the really small cap space when

924
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,040
you've got these reverse
takeovers and you're issuing

925
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,040
basically almost 100% of your
stock and foreman shares or

926
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,280
milestone shares.
And yet by the time you get to

927
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,880
the takeover, the whole concept
of of this is describing future

928
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,160
value for upside disappears and
no one's interested.

929
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,680
So it just seems to me that
there's this kind of cognitive

930
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:50,320
dissonance.
Yeah.

931
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,520
Beautiful sweet and sour deal.
Sweet deal, sour deal, mate.

932
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:57,600
Oh geez, I've got an interesting
one to kick off.

933
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,160
See this art, this back
announcement with Jindalee.

934
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:04,080
So Jindalee, owner of the
McDermott Lithium development

935
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:05,800
project in the US, they came out
with this announcement.

936
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,560
They're planning to be part of
this kind of Desebac deal.

937
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,400
Jindalee would effectively
emerge as an 80% shareholder of

938
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,600
this new Co, which would become.
Still doing these specs?

939
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:16,240
Sorry, they're still doing these
specs.

940
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:18,400
They're back.
Yeah, but these specs are back.

941
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:24,200
It's 2025, it's just 2021, yeah.
So Jindalee would have merged

942
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,320
80% shareholder of new Co, which
would become NASDAQ or NYSE

943
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,440
listed and that would get 20 to
30 million US cash injection

944
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,160
from the SPAC sponsors and new
investors so that that new Co

945
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,680
would effectively become the
100% owner of McDermott.

946
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:41,960
The market response was so
interestingly, on the focus

947
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,280
charts, you'll see the stock
shot up 50% to $0.75 since

948
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,560
peeled back most of those gains.
Keep in mind, like Jindalee,

949
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,960
it's like a mere $40 million
market cap right now.

950
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,160
On the one hand, you could you
could see this transaction as

951
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,520
like a way that they can raise
double their own market cap with

952
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:02,040
only 20% effective dilution.
On the other hand, the SPAC is

953
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:03,720
the best capital you can find
for the project.

954
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:09,720
So I can't help but give it.
ACII gave this a sour to you, I

955
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:10,960
thought.
I thought that's oh, sorry, sour

956
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,240
deal, sour to.
You, yeah.

957
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,760
Yeah, the, the big headline US
$500 million value ascribed to

958
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,120
Jindalee's assets just made me
laugh.

959
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,520
The the whole kind of deal me a
bit of a, a yucky feeling in a

960
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:27,080
way not, not totally to degrade
Jindalee and how they've gone

961
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,000
about things.
You, you sort of find the

962
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:33,400
capital where you can get it.
But yeah, Jindalee has kept like

963
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,880
a a super tight register and
share count for years and years

964
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:38,400
and years.
It is kind of an interesting

965
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,480
step in the direction that that
company is going, but specs kind

966
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,200
of give me an icky feeling.
So it's a it's a sour deal.

967
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,920
I'm.
Gonna keep my deal assessments

968
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,880
to my signal chat so.
Get that ASIC.

969
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:56,480
All right, next one we've got
Alcoa.

970
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:02,240
They gave $46,000,000 to the
private Western gas.

971
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:07,320
This is in the context of
downstream alumina business

972
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:11,440
being incredibly energy
intensive here in Australia, WA

973
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:16,800
specifically, and them needing
to source reliable low cost

974
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,160
energy sweet or sour deal.
Well, this is, this is for like

975
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,160
this Western gas, they've got
this Equus project.

976
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,080
They're basically just giving
enough money to advance a bunch

977
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,360
of studies and the likes.
And, and they've foregone a

978
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,400
little bit of, of, of offtake.
Should it actually mentorate to,

979
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,000
to development.
But development back in the day

980
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,000
of this project was like penned
at like 5 billion up to $5

981
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:37,360
billion price tag to actually
develop.

982
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,440
So it's, you know, it's big, big
project.

983
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,680
And Alco was doing something
kind of interesting, which is

984
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,320
they're playing very early to in
the in the development phase and

985
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,200
to kind of get wrap their hands
on some degree of, of, of gas

986
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,080
offtake.
And I've said this before on the

987
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,880
potty, like you can see it in
the independent expert report of

988
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,120
the scheme booklet with, with,
with AWAC and what with alumina

989
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:02,480
and and Alcoa, a $1.00 per
gigajoule change in the gas

990
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:09,000
price has a $2.5 billion NPV
impact on, on AWAC operations.

991
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,840
That's enormous.
I expect, I expect Alcoa to get

992
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,280
really, really active in this
kind of like gas space because

993
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:20,760
their their contracts all roll
off with WO gas or roll off by

994
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,480
2032.
So they need to be recontracting

995
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,040
urgently.
Yeah, very, very sweet deal.

996
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:28,200
It's good.
It's not just lobbying and and

997
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:29,960
meeting Roger Cook and the like.
They're actually putting their

998
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,880
money where their mouth is
because 2032, like you sort of

999
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,400
say, will be here before you
know it scheme of getting these

1000
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:37,680
sorts of projects off the
ground.

1001
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:39,640
This is very early stage, so
good on them.

1002
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:44,920
All righty, you mentioned a deal
mate that had one of these non

1003
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,160
deal roadshows involved.
That was of course the Illumina

1004
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:54,120
non deal roadshow one month
before the deal was announced.

1005
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,320
So the topic here is Mary Maca.
They came out with a non deal

1006
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:01,080
roadshow and it was only.
AFR coming out with headlines so

1007
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,400
they're doing non deal roadshow.
It was only a couple sleeps

1008
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:06,240
later that the capital raise is
revealed, $80 million.

1009
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,280
Now this is kind of important
for them because their their

1010
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,200
listing in on the ASX hasn't
taken off at all.

1011
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:15,440
I don't.
Think they've, I don't think

1012
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,000
they've got any.
No one's shunted their shares

1013
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:19,320
over or whatever like.
Exactly.

1014
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:20,680
So this is trying to kick start
it.

1015
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:22,760
Given that all the you'd.
Do a cap raise for liquidity,

1016
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:24,360
yeah.
All the money was raised X

1017
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:28,200
Canada here.
The non deal roadshow itself is

1018
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,880
the biggest oxymoron I think
I've ever kind of seen.

1019
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,840
So sour deal on that front, but
sweet for them getting the the

1020
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:40,880
ASX listing off the ground.
Yeah mate, I, I, I just give AFR

1021
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,920
a sour deal.
What are you doing right on that

1022
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,160
story anyway?
You got any views on that one,

1023
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,400
James?
Oh no, I mean, I'd probably

1024
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,440
rank, you know, money of mine
AFR and then, you know, deal

1025
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:53,360
room.
So yeah.

1026
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:54,280
Yeah.
Well said.

1027
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:55,400
Well said.
Well said.

1028
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:57,760
Yeah, you mean data room?
Yeah, data room.

1029
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:01,400
I don't read the Australian.
That's all right.

1030
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,280
Make a mistake about that.
Elemental royalties merging with

1031
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,480
EMX royalties creating a $1
billion royalty code backed by

1032
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:10,040
each other.
We talked about them buying them

1033
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,880
Laverton royalty last week.
And, you know, not long after

1034
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:16,720
that episode went live, we found
out they're merging with the

1035
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:19,320
mighty EMX.
This is this is just awesome.

1036
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,240
I'll give it an A, this makes
heaps of sense.

1037
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,240
And like, yeah, like also coming
together lowers the cost of

1038
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:27,080
capital.
Having tether there lowers their

1039
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,400
cost of capital.
Like it's going to be an

1040
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,200
acquisitive team.
Yeah, really, really interesting

1041
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,520
kind of capital behind it.
And scale kind of helps their

1042
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:38,840
their their multiple.
Totally.

1043
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,280
This is absolutely a a a sweet
deal.

1044
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,200
I, I, it would hazard to say
that elemental royalties is like

1045
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,880
one of the most interesting
companies in the mining world

1046
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,240
right now, given everything
that's going on and how we spoke

1047
00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:52,040
about the cost of capital last
week.

1048
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,360
And these guys are just checking
box after box in making

1049
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,320
themselves a sort of more
relevant companies.

1050
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,200
So awesome, awesome deal to to
follow and good on them for for

1051
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:02,640
getting it done.
Can't see where it goes from

1052
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,040
here.
Oh great, a sweet deal.

1053
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:06,120
I know some of the people
involved.

1054
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,680
Nice, yeah.
All right, last one and this one

1055
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,760
is super interesting because
we've spoken about you found

1056
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,320
land with a couple of people and
this company divides opinion.

1057
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:22,640
NFGNFGNFG Someone told us NFG is
a ticker that it should fit No F

1058
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:27,240
in gold anyway.
It divides opinion though, So

1059
00:52:27,240 --> 00:52:29,480
people have a very sort of
contrary view to the one you've

1060
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,040
just laid out.
And it's not every day that you

1061
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,240
see a developer come out and
spend $300 million buying a

1062
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,400
company.
So I was a bit taken aback by

1063
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,320
that.
But once you sort of peel away

1064
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,880
and and look into the details of
this deal is there's a bit going

1065
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:46,920
on here.
So you think 180 KS between

1066
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,720
projects can't really be
synergies, but there kind of is

1067
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:52,320
because the dirt is super high
grade.

1068
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,960
Both of them are relatively near
term to production.

1069
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,840
So the company being acquired
Maritime will be producing next

1070
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:03,880
year and you found the following
year and there's a plant that

1071
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,560
that Maritime previously bought.
So there's a there's a fair bit

1072
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:12,080
going on here looking into the
details on the the hammer down

1073
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,200
asset that Maritime has.
They were flushing through

1074
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:20,480
US17150 gold price on that deal.
So that that's a conservative

1075
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,640
gold price to run.
And in the context of that the

1076
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:26,120
the cash flows which are meant
to come online next year could

1077
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,760
be pretty handsome.
So my initial take was Sourdeal,

1078
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:33,680
but I think there's reason to
give this one bit of sweetness.

1079
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,680
What do you reckon mate?
I yeah, I'm interested in in

1080
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:41,320
Newfound Gold purely because
like that is it's been a mad

1081
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,240
underperformer.
It was a super hyper stock.

1082
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,560
It's come back to Earth after
their, I think their maiden

1083
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:51,280
resource came out like 3 or 4
months ago and it's just one of

1084
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:53,600
those like gold names where
there must be something of value

1085
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:55,000
there.
Now they've bolted it on with

1086
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,480
this other thing.
What like what can you actually

1087
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,560
wrap a mind plan around?
It's probably, it's valuation is

1088
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,360
probably like it could actually
be in the value area after being

1089
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,760
in in the not so value area
historically.

1090
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:07,840
And that's why I think it's
worth doing some work on.

1091
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,040
I'll give it a sweet deal.
Very good.

1092
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,440
All right.
Last but not least, hidden gems.

1093
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,960
James, is there anything that
has stuck out to you lately?

1094
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,440
Podcast, restaurant, Holiday
destination.

1095
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:27,280
Well I mean I I late late
adopter of technology by all

1096
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:32,440
accounts, but I did download
ChatGPT 5 point O the other day.

1097
00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:34,280
You better tell me that you're a
lawyer.

1098
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:37,280
Just just don't ChatGPT.
No, no, no.

1099
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,160
I mean, I don't use it for
professional purposes, but but

1100
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:45,320
I, it did amaze me.
I mean, we, I'm off to Portugal

1101
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,600
next Thursday and, and we're
spending one day going out of

1102
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,080
Lisbon up to this place called
Centre and it's got like 4

1103
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:55,320
different palaces.
There's, you know, Anna Palace,

1104
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,800
Montserrat, Quinta de la Reggae,
Relicaire and then the Moorish

1105
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:01,400
castle.
And it's, it's hard.

1106
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,040
You know, you're going out there
for a full day, heaps of

1107
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:05,840
tourists trying to work out what
to do.

1108
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:08,880
And you read online and
everyone's just complaining

1109
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,240
about the sandwiches.
So I, I asked ChatGPT and I said

1110
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,400
ChatGPT, can you plan me an
itinerary when I need to leave

1111
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:19,640
the hotel in a car, get up to
Sentra to, to visit these

1112
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:21,560
palaces?
Which ones should I prioritise?

1113
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,520
Should I go see all of them?
And I want to be home by this

1114
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,480
point in time.
Anyway, it came back.

1115
00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:29,640
Perfect itinerary, absolutely
perfect printed.

1116
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,400
I mean, I haven't gone yet.
So yeah, proof will be in the

1117
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:35,440
pudding.
But at the same time, yeah, firm

1118
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,480
believer.
So yeah, high recommendation to

1119
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,200
download ChatGPT and I'll give
you my recommendation on Sentra

1120
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,280
when I get back.
Keen to hear that mate.

1121
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:45,040
There you go.
Very.

1122
00:55:45,240 --> 00:55:46,640
Much looking forward to hearing
that one.

1123
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,560
How about you mate?
I do have an interview that I

1124
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,120
listened to a little while ago
and it might be one of the best

1125
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:53,480
interviews I've ever listened
to.

1126
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,080
Grant Williams interviewing Tony
Deadon.

1127
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:57,840
I've listened to it a couple
times.

1128
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,080
It's picturesque and the content
is super ripe.

1129
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:06,040
It's probably a 2 hour interview
and the the content is just so,

1130
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:07,520
so rich.
Tony talking about his

1131
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:12,600
investment philosophy kind of
creating kind of enduring wealth

1132
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,960
in a very down to earth, non
hyped kind of manner.

1133
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:17,360
Well worth a watch.
We're chucking in the show.

1134
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:20,920
Notes I've I've I've been pretty
crook the last week, but you

1135
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:22,480
know what I'll shout out to anti
coal.

1136
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,840
The best lozenge are just.
Passing sponsorship mate.

1137
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:27,640
Stop.
Stop stops you from coffee.

1138
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:28,960
You've been chewing them like
lollies.

1139
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:32,280
Mate, Yeah, no, it's Star.
It makes you think you're not

1140
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:34,560
sick sometimes, yeah.
Yeah, perfect.

1141
00:56:34,720 --> 00:56:37,720
Good spot to to leave it.
Thanks a bunch for joining us

1142
00:56:37,720 --> 00:56:41,080
and and sharing your your
loyalty wisdom, James.

1143
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:42,640
Very welcome.
Anything you wanted to talk

1144
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,920
about that we didn't talk about?
No, if I think of something I'll

1145
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:47,480
come back on.
No, you're not.

1146
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:52,360
No, you're not.
No, and a massive thank you to

1147
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,920
focus the platform by Market
Tech, Sandvik Ground Support and

1148
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:57,080
imark.
Get your tickets to the

1149
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,280
conference October 21 to 23.
Hudaru.

1150
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,760
Hudaru.
Now remember, I'm an idiot.

1151
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:07,480
JD is an idiot.
If you thought any of this was

1152
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,000
anything other than
entertainment, you're an idiot

1153
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:11,560
and you need to read out a
disclaimer.