An unfiltered conversation with Mr Lithium

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Well, the the capability really
came from the West.

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Truth be told, we quit doing it.
And they have a huge cost

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advantage.
You know, when they were talking

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about technologies that they
were going to might limit the

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export of and one of the things
they talked about was Hard Rock

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conversion.
And it was like, really, we

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actually started that.
Righto Buddy Waters Lithium

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Spectacular Carmen, you're white
boys.

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You know the best place to
charge a lithium battery.

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Tell me, Matthew.
In a charging station, probably

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in a grounded camp, they can put
them in and 'cause you know

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what, 'cause they don't build on
the plan, they design the plan

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and then they build that design
concept.

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Construct, mate.
Absolute experts, mate.

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You can have a look at this
joint, this is Subiaco on a mine

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site and you see grounded zone
KD Dore walking around here.

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I swear that is the animated
version of KD Dore.

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It's been model off but you can
but unbelievable quality.

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That is what you will see in
real life once the grounded team

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unleash their expertise.
On camp, camp is the wrong word.

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We need, we need, we need a a
new word for what these are,

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because this is revolutionized
accommodation on a mine site.

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Resort.
Resort.

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Resort Village, Yeah, it's, it's
got, it's got to make work in

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there.
Happy city dwellings in the

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Bush.
Love it.

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Designed concept and constructed
by the grounded group.

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Go grounded right?
Did they build their own

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building?
They probably did down West

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Perth.
I think they did.

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Yeah.
Yeah, definitely designed it.

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Love to know that.
Anyway, back to Lithium.

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Mr. Joe Lowry.
Mr. Lithium come back.

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Bloody sorry I couldn't join us
on this one.

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I hope you gave him more
regards.

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Great fella.
And what's what's the vibe?

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What is the vibe?
The vibe is that we want to be

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counter cyclical, Matthew.
And as we sort of discussed in

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the show, lithium is very beaten
up, no surprise to anyone and

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why not have a chat about it
with none other than Mr.

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Lithium.
We covered everything under the

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sun in Lithium world from the
M&A that we've seen in recent

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times, the supply demand dynamic
and the conversation really came

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off the back of his awesome
write up on how the Chinese have

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dominated the lithium space in
the battery metal, battery

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metals and battery making arena
for the last 5-10 years.

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So I think that's all you kind
of need to know for this one.

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So counter cyclical you say and
find something that's going down

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shit loads and hope it goes back
up.

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Yeah, exactly in a nutshell.
Right now, let's get into Mr.

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Lithium.
Mr. Lithium, we are very excited

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to to have you back on the show.
It's been well over a year now

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and with where where lithium
markets have been and the kind

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of general sentiment around the
space, we thought it'd be a

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great time to get you back on
the show.

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And then you actually published
a, a little piece on LinkedIn,

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the Lithium Art of War.
And yeah, I, I never thought I'd

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lead in the podcast with a bit
of Sun Tzu, but I think it's

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quite.
Fitting.

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Given, given your paper so that
there was some fascinating sort

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of points and it sort of puts
into perspective the the rise

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and rise of, of China and the,
and the kind of falling off of

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the West.
But yeah, came came to start the

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podcast to understand what was
the the inspiration to to put

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into words what has happened
over the past 1520 years in the

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lithium arena.
Well, as a proud American, I B

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whale are falling off a Cliff,
falling off the lithium Cliff

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over the years over the you
know, when I started, everything

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that went to the battery
industry was from the US, mined

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in the US, processed in the US
and and that was it was short

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lived.
It was only three or four years

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because we did not have the
capacity at the time and had to

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make a transition from Hard Rock
to brine.

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But I really tire of the whining
on the US.

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Well, I won't even limit it to
the US.

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Europe too, and and frame it
more broadly, North America and

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Europe about in China's unfair
competition and how they've

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dominated.
They were terrible at all of

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this for the better part of 15
years, but they stuck with their

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program.
You know, I can go back is

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recently is 2009, 2010.
Nobody would buy Chinese

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material unless it was low end
stuff.

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The European Greece guys would
buy their hydroxide, but the

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Koreans and the Japanese, who at
that time still were dominant in

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the battery supply chain, they
wouldn't touch Chinese material.

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Gangfen didn't even start making
carbonate and hydroxide until

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the last 15 years, so they
existed for over a decade before

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they even were in a financial
position to put the capital in

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to convert.
So it it's been an interesting

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rise and you know, highlighted
gang fan.

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I could have just as easily
talked about Tianchi, although I

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don't think their story is quite
as interesting as gang fans.

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But then BYD also I, I met BYD
before I met Gangfen.

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I, I met BYD 25 years ago and
was supplying them carbonate and

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cathode materials, which we made
it a joint venture in Japan.

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And I saw that rise because
their beginnings were very, very

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humble as well.
And CADL before.

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They're they're doing EVs right.
Oh, yeah, this, this was all

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they went up into the hinterland
and got a bunch of teenage girls

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to make crummy batteries by
hand.

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And, and literally, I mean, they
put their capital in the testing

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equipment because back then,
and, and this is really

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fascinating, the first time I
went to their facility, they

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were bragging about how making
things by hand was actually a

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strength because they could
pivot faster than Sony could.

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But they also were honest enough
to say that most of their

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batteries couldn't be sold to
the international cell phone

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market, which back then was two
names.

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You guys probably don't.
You might be familiar with Nokia

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and Motorola.
They were the big cell phone

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guys back then.
I mean, it kind of.

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This was after the Gordon Gekko
shoe case.

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We're not that young, Joe.
We remember, We remember those.

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I reckon we both owned one of
them.

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And, and the United States did
not have, I mean my cell when I

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lived in Asia, I had three cell
phones.

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I had a China cell because
roaming wasn't really a thing

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early on.
So I had a China cell phone for

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trips to China.
I was living in Japan.

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I had a Japanese cell phone and
I had AUS cell phone.

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And my US cell phone had a
nickel metal hydride battery

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back then.
So it was pre lithium?

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Yeah.
And look, looking at the market

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caps of these companies, I think
just to, to state the numbers so

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people really appreciate it like
BYD is in Aussie dollar terms

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$215 billion, so 2/3 of that to
get the US market cap.

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And cattle is about the same
like these companies are they're

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bigger than BHB now.
It's, it's remarkable the, the,

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the rise and rise.
I want, I want to hone in on, on

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cattle for a second, Joe,
because the, the really

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interesting part that stuck out
to me from your writing was on

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their appreciation of vertical
integration and what they learnt

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in the the latest wild ride that
we saw in that 2122 boom.

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And they, you know, went on to,
to purchase these lipid light

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operations.
How do you kind of put that in,

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in perspective and you know,
think about how they might

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utilize those operations and the
learnings they've got from that

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going forward over the next sort
of 1020 years?

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I I think it's even broader than
just what CATL did, but to go

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with the question in the 2022
run out, they had to try to keep

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their share.
They had a a program where they

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were guaranteeing that the form
the price lithium price in the

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formula would be basically the
equivalent of 20,000 pricing,

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which they lost a lot of money
on is the price continued to

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rise.
And these guys are very smart

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people and they move fast.
They didn't like what was

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happening.
They realized that a price is

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just going to keep going up,
that they could exploit what

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were very well known resources.
They just weren't economic in

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any other lithium cycle.
And it goes way beyond that,

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though.
They, the lipid light came on

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and then all the African move
and they figured out I think

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really quickly how they're going
to manage the next cycle because

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there's layers of, you know, the
cost curve.

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Your last lithium guest talked
about the, you know, the concept

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of the steepening cost curve and
that is certainly true.

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And now I think that is going to
be the the buffer on significant

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price runs in the future because
all the Chinese converters know

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where this stuff is, whether
it's DSO or 2.5 or whatever the

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grades are.
Africa's has such a diversity of

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they have decent lithium and
they have a lot of garbage.

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But when the price runs up to
35,000 and 40,000 and then all

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the way up to 80, you can use
any of that stuff.

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And I think that the last cycle
taught all of China, all their

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lithium supply chain, how
they'll react next time.

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And it it seemed quick in
2022-2023, it'll be quicker next

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time.
But I also believe there will be

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a shortage and there will be a
price spike because on the other

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hand of what CAT LS done and,
and I think there's fair

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consensus that there's a lot of
misinformation out there.

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If you go back to 2022, they
were CHL was pumping the sodium

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ion battery and how great it was
going to be in the share it was

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going to get.
And they, they knew the

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limitations of that.
But it, it was rhetoric that

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scared the West And that's,
that's the game.

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They've they've done a great job
of disincentivizing capital from

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chasing what I would call
mediocre projects.

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I mediocre projects for MMS all
class boys.

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Ask me anything about MMS and
mining.

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Does open pit mining have a
relationship with underground

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mining Matthew?
Interesting question.

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00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:52,160
Well, let's consider the black
cat have just taken pretty much

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saying Myra is going
underground.

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Now if we could link that back
to MMS, their superior

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performance at my RE getting
there quicker, obviously leaving

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00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,600
it in Shmico condition.
All the bloody walls are just

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ready to punch portals in.
I would say yes, MMS have pretty

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much blackout have said, holy
shit, we can go underground now.

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We weren't expecting to be here.
Thank you MMS, that is pretty

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much what's happening.
So answer your question, JD.

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00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:25,520
Yes, if you mind the open pit
quick at a superior quality.

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00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:29,320
Yes, it makes your underground
better and sooner.

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If I understand you're right,
Matthew, that means earlier cash

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00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,280
flow for you the mining company?
Well mate you probably just

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start.
You're just getting double the

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00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,200
cash flow cause the pits still
go you.

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00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,280
Didn't sterilise the ore body,
you looked after it.

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00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,120
Twice as much cash flow, five
times as quicker and your share

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00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,040
price goes up like Black Cat
when MMS is your trusted mining

200
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:50,440
partner.
Seems like a no brainer to.

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00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:51,800
Me.
I didn't know what?

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00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:57,080
Let's get back into boot, Joe.
Just to tease that out even

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00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,560
more, Joe, like what's the,
what's the, the economic

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00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:04,840
incentive for them to do do so?
Well, take BYD and CATL

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00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,760
together.
They're almost half of global

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00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,920
lithium demand, two companies.
We never had that situation

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00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:18,000
before.
If you look at 1.2 terawatt

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00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:23,880
hours total last year roughly
and BYD and CATL being half of

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00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,600
that, and I'm a little more
conservative on my lithium

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00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,120
intensity than your guest from
Singapore.

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00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:37,680
But anyway you calculate it,
they are far and away the

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00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:41,360
dominant purchaser of lithium
values in whatever form, whether

213
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:46,120
they're it sells, cathode,
whatever, and they have every

214
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:52,000
incentive in the world to run a
mine or a couple of mines at a

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00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,680
loss.
If you're buying 3 or 400,000

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00:13:55,680 --> 00:14:02,120
tons of LCE and you take a
beating on 4050 sixty thousand

217
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:10,520
tons, but you keep your other
purchases 8910 dollars below

218
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:15,560
what they would run up to if you
weren't doing that, it's it's

219
00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:21,920
not rocket science.
If we, if we go back once more,

220
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,680
Joe, to, to really set, set the
foundation for, for this rise of

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00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,360
these, these Chinese companies.
One of the other points you, you

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00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,680
make and, and others have sort
of made and you see it across

223
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,720
all, all industries.
But you know, you know, very

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00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,240
obviously in, in the AV and the
battery sort of space is the,

225
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the way in which government and
industry kind of mesh and, and

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work together and that's kind of
coordinate to, to achieve these

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00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:51,320
strategic goals.
When, when you look at like BYD

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00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,800
and and cattle now, do you, do
you see them as being able to

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kind of run their own race and
the the government has kind of

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00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,360
just tapped them in line when,
when that needs to kind of

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00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,640
happen, but they're they're free
to sort of do so?

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00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,720
Or how, how do you view the the
government and enterprise at a

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00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:12,400
relationship today?
I think you just phrased it very

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00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:17,880
well.
They let them run until they

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have something to say.
And I, I think you, you saw that

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00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,720
I, I don't know if it was the
March meeting two years ago or

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when Xi Jinping told Robin Zong
that he ought to be careful

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00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,400
about going to the US and you
needed to be dealing with

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00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:41,080
friendly entities that I'd, I'd
have to go back and, and Google

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00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,680
that article.
But it was, it was pretty clear.

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00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,560
And I think everybody knows the
Jack Ma story.

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00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,040
That's not a, that's not a
lithium story, but you know,

243
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,280
they turn Jack Ma into a verb,
you know, you get Jack Ma.

244
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,280
So I I think there's been a.
Bit of a bit of a change lately

245
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,680
though, right?
The, The, the attitude towards

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00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,440
successful business people is, I
don't know, it's, it's kind of

247
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,600
altered a little bit.
And, and Jack Ma has, you know,

248
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,240
been the, been the face of that.
You've you've seen him in public

249
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,200
again, which you didn't say from
the youth.

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00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:19,000
I think that's optics, I think.
It's all optics, right?

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00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:25,320
Yeah, I, I, not to be completely
cynical, but having lived there,

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00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:32,280
having watched it, knowing some
of these people, you don't want

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to be the richest guy in China.
You want to be 3 or 4.

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00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,040
When I lived there, there was
two or three years where the

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00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,280
person named the richest person
in China was in jail the next

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00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,840
year.
I I used to love that saying

257
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that the fastest way to to die
in in China is to become a

258
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:53,720
billionaire.
Yeah, but I mean, probably.

259
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,080
Offended an entire nation there,
so maybe I'll retract that.

260
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,640
I admire what China's done.
I mean, that is my bottom line

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00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:09,160
from the what I put up on on
LinkedIn is that I think that

262
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:15,200
it's very arrogant of North
America or Europe to think they

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00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,800
can do in a short period of time
what it literally took China

264
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:25,880
decades to do with all the
support put in place with.

265
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:32,040
I hired a lot of people when I
lived in China and I always said

266
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:37,600
I would much rather have to pick
from a pool of Chinese town than

267
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,600
a pool of American town.
It's a tremendously industrious

268
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,080
nation, right?
Everybody wanted to get ahead

269
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:50,320
their their nuances to how you
manage Chinese young people

270
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,760
there.
They do probably need a little

271
00:17:55,760 --> 00:18:02,400
more stroking in terms of having
a lot of the I managed different

272
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,120
age groups and the young people
were a little more aggressive.

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00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:09,800
But the people that had mom and
dad went through the Cultural

274
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,960
Revolution.
They had a respect for authority

275
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:16,640
that you didn't really see so
much in in the US at the time.

276
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,720
But they're the 50 years of
communism I used to say when I

277
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,160
was living there didn't beat the
entrepreneurial spirit out of

278
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,320
the Chinese people.
That's that that point is, is

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00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,360
often a bit lost in the
commentary around China.

280
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:34,400
It's just the, the relative
competitiveness that does exist

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00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,360
amongst, you know, the the
centralized government.

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00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:44,440
It was the old saw, especially
in in the early days of cathode

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00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:50,760
was once a company started
making decent cathode, then one

284
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,640
of their lead guys would quit,
go down the street and open up

285
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:58,760
another cathode supplier.
It was just people wanted to be

286
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:09,480
their own boss.
And I admired the really the

287
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:14,040
hard work, the the work ethic
was impressive.

288
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:23,400
And so I may not like Mr. XI
much, but I admire the Chinese

289
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,480
people and will continue to do
so.

290
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,560
The supreme art of war is to
subdue the enemy without

291
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,160
fighting.
How does this relate to lithium

292
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,080
so.
Well, it's it really does.

293
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,440
And not to hype my podcast, but
if you go back and listen to the

294
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,280
episode Not Lost in Translation
with Lee Lamb Bing and Wang Xiao

295
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:45,320
Shen, I mean, they talked about
the early days.

296
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:53,000
They had to deal with everybody.
They were the supplicants.

297
00:19:53,000 --> 00:20:02,240
They never, there was never a
discouraging word said, but they

298
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,320
knew where they wanted to go.
And that was one of the things

299
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,680
that I always told people that
we're dealing with them because

300
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:13,000
I I made a presentation at
Panorama Minero event last

301
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,040
October and I showed gang fence
slides.

302
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:23,720
That they had presented to me in
2005 about wanting to become a

303
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:32,000
strong domestic supplier and
then they wanted to become a

304
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,400
regional player.
And this is not in carbonate and

305
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,320
hydroxide.
This was in the downstream

306
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,800
because they they had enough
capital to to have a metal plan

307
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,240
and they had enough capital to
try to do butyl lithium.

308
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,680
But I think if you look at the
three companies I highlight in

309
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:57,880
that article, they all started
off with technology from other

310
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:03,360
people.
I mean, CATL technology was came

311
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:08,320
from Japan and or ATL did.
And then CATL was an offshoot of

312
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,640
that.
And there was always the, the

313
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,440
Chinese concept of they would
always say, you know, Big

314
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:23,840
Brother, I need help.
And it wasn't, it wasn't until

315
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:30,680
they got to the where they are
today that they now publicly

316
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:35,560
still show the humility.
But those guys are very

317
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,120
confident in who they are and
where they're going.

318
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:39,920
And they're certainly not afraid
of anybody outside of China.

319
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,120
On on the conversion front, like
just how how many, like how many

320
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:47,760
years ahead like realistically
would that be if if the you

321
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,480
know, if the if the the West
tried to replicate some of that

322
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,120
some of that capability.
Well, the the capability really

323
00:21:56,120 --> 00:22:00,840
came from the West.
Truth be told, they learned how

324
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:02,720
to convert spot.
You mean from us.

325
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:08,680
We didn't learn.
Now we quit doing it and they

326
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:14,600
have a huge cost advantage.
But you know, that's that's

327
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,560
something that I always push
back on is that, you know, when

328
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,840
they were talking about
technologies that they were

329
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,480
going to might limit the export
of and one of the things they

330
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,040
talked about was Hard Rock
conversion.

331
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,400
And it was like really, we
actually started that.

332
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,520
So, but I take the question
seriously.

333
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:43,920
I look at Tesla, Corpus Christi,
they announced that the the Cal

334
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,600
sire was turning, but they
haven't, I haven't I haven't

335
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,920
seen a lot of announcements
about the great quality product

336
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,600
that they're producing because
it's not happening as far as I

337
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,280
know.
I don't want to get into trouble

338
00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:02,040
if they have been sneaking
product to cathode makers, but I

339
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:08,680
think I would know.
I do think we're more hamstrung

340
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,800
on the permitting side, the
financing side.

341
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:21,200
And and I think it's probably, I
would say the gap in simply

342
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:26,760
lithium.
We can't catch up and we

343
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,920
shouldn't even try to catch up.
But we do need our own supply

344
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:36,400
chain too.
And that's just because when I

345
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:41,120
was there and watching early
days, when I was first making

346
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:44,720
trips once a month between 2000
and 2005, before I moved to

347
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,880
China from Japan, there were not
that many converters.

348
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:57,520
And now I, I don't, I don't have
any idea how many dozen

349
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,480
conversion facilities there are
now.

350
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:06,320
But you, you had easy money when
they were trying to develop the

351
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:11,440
West, the the regional banks
were propping up people that

352
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,600
weren't making a dime for years.
And we don't, we don't have that

353
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:22,320
kind of situation in America.
So I'd say that's as much the

354
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,680
problem is just the pure
technology because I can get on

355
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:32,840
the phone and call a bunch of
people that live within a few

356
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,520
hours of where I'm sitting that
could get a converter bill if

357
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,440
they had the money and and they
could put it into operation

358
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:45,160
relatively quickly if they could
get a permitted if all the

359
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,040
things that you have to do
besides just the engineering.

360
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,360
So to your point on, on us
needing to have our own supply

361
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:58,120
chain in in the West and, and
needing to compete, what what do

362
00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:03,040
you make of the, the IRA and
where that kind of stands now

363
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,400
and what that kind of looks,
looks like and you know any

364
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,520
other sort of similar government
type package to, to kind of chip

365
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:19,800
away at China's dominance?
Well, I am heartened that we are

366
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:28,600
building factor Pass and all the
issues that were in the way have

367
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,880
been surmounted and that that's
being built.

368
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,200
And you know, it's, that was a
huge loan.

369
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,720
I mean, 2.3 billion is nothing
to sneeze at.

370
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,600
And then it required some other
additional financing and that's

371
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,800
all in place.
I think it's being well

372
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,320
supported by the local
governments, the, the national

373
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,800
governments.
But that's one 40,000 ton plant

374
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,520
that can expand to 80.
It's it's a beginning.

375
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:09,600
The real open question in North
America is, well, there's,

376
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:15,840
there's more than one, but how
fast do the Exons and Ecuador's

377
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:23,480
move Rio Tinto put real money
into their lithium effort.

378
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,960
I'm not saying that the oil
companies had aren't willing to

379
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:33,400
put real money in, but so far
it's been kind of a slow roll as

380
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:39,840
they they learn and they're not.
It isn't a Manhattan Project

381
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,320
speed scenario.
It's probably the the kindest

382
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,360
way to put it.
I don't think a company like Rio

383
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:53,880
is is capable of a Manhattan
type style or speed of operation

384
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,160
in in all fairness to them, it's
just not their their sort of MO.

385
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:04,120
Oh, and I, I was thrilled that
Rio put the capital in, but I've

386
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:09,200
said on my podcast, I've said it
in writing, I've said it on XI,

387
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:17,080
don't think they speed this up.
I think that they have the

388
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:21,000
balance sheet to do all the
projects that they own, but they

389
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:29,280
don't have the skills yet.
And I, you know, heard a recent

390
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:34,120
guest talk about all the skills
that Arcadium had.

391
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:37,720
Well, let's, let's, I'll just
take it.

392
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,800
I'll just personalize it to my
experience.

393
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:46,280
I left FMC Lithium in 2012.
Ten years later, they were

394
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,560
producing the same amount of LC
ES as they were when I left.

395
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,880
That's after announcing
expansions.

396
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,440
That's after a lot of rhetoric
and they didn't execute.

397
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:09,840
Some of it could be laid on to
financial issues, but that to me

398
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,400
was more of an excuse and I
think Rio's already made a huge

399
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,880
mistake in keeping that
management intact.

400
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,080
They didn't get it done is live
in.

401
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,120
They didn't get it done as
separately as all chem and they

402
00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:30,640
didn't get it done as arcadium.
So why do you want to keep the

403
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,680
same management intact who
didn't perform, who just had a

404
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,520
portfolio of really good assets?
It and I, and I actually said

405
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,760
that to Rio's head of battery
metals at BMO.

406
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,720
I had a meeting with him and
said you guys have already made

407
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,040
mistake #1 didn't.
They make Paul Graves the head

408
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,200
of CEO of Lithium.
He's the CEO.

409
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I I like Paul.

410
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,080
Paul's a nice guy.
Yeah, but let's go.

411
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,240
Let's look at the.
You should judge people by the

412
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,640
record.
And.

413
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,360
And I yeah, I made the statement
when Arcadium was formed.

414
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,160
I made the statement that it
made sense to have Paul run it

415
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,520
because he's a banker and he'll,
he'll he'll be able to sell it.

416
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,440
And he did that and they should
have thanked him and moved on.

417
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,280
What what did you make of the
price tag like to to just speak

418
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,960
to that the financial aspect of
of that that deal?

419
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,200
I think Paul's a banker and I
think Paul got a good price.

420
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,360
I don't think it was as bad as
some of Rio Tuno's other deals

421
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,920
maybe, but I don't want to go
too far down there.

422
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:49,120
That's a high bar to to be.
Well, that's hence the comment.

423
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,360
I do.
I've got enough.

424
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,880
I mean, before we even kind of
venture into some of the grounds

425
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,200
of the deal landscape and
everything like that.

426
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:03,040
I feel like the maybe even the
most topical thing to talk about

427
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,640
is the last few days we've just
been watching the lithium

428
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,360
equities in particular here.
I just absolutely crater.

429
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,560
I mean, today as we wake up and
we're recording it might be a

430
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,920
bit of a bounce, but it it, it
almost seems like there's a a

431
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,600
really huge response to to
tariffs as they relate to the

432
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,360
lithium mining equities that we
have like pill gang or like, you

433
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,320
know, PLS now they call
themselves not pillar minerals.

434
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,520
PLS They're they're like a
dollar 2020 odd, but 26

435
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:33,360
yesterday at some point it's
just yeah, amazing and means.

436
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,360
I mean, it's 31 and 34 cents.
So I'm I'm still.

437
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,640
I'm still hanging in.
So, so is this, is this like, is

438
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,640
this, is this tariffs?
Is this is that what this is

439
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:43,440
like?
What are the like?

440
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,520
What's?
No, I think, I think the set,

441
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:51,080
the sentiment in lithium is
worse in 2025 than it was in the

442
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:57,520
dark days of less than $4000 a
ton that SQM and Ora Cobre sold

443
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,320
into China at during 2020.
In some cases that wasn't their

444
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,640
average price, but it got that
low and you're still in the

445
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,960
10,000 range now.
But the sentiment is still so

446
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,000
negative.
You know, two years ago it, it,

447
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,600
it BMO, every uranium company
was talking about they might

448
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,480
have lithium and gold guys were
the same.

449
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,560
Now it's the opposite.
Every lithium guys like, hey,

450
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,640
maybe we'll go maybe we'll go
for uranium.

451
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:34,320
I I don't think I think it's
just the overall the markets

452
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:42,840
down and it's easy to be
negative on lithium used to

453
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,720
track Tesla, you know, several
years ago.

454
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,640
And right now, I mean, people
that drive Tesla are getting

455
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,760
spit out their cars getting spit
on it stop lights because

456
00:31:54,760 --> 00:32:02,040
everybody's mad at Elon.
So right now, America's, you

457
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,040
know, going through a moment
interesting time.

458
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,520
Well, some of it must, like
there must be kind of a part of

459
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,120
it that is related to
expectations like in

460
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,080
recessionary conditions, like
where's the discretionary spend

461
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,320
on lithium coming from plus
combined with how much of the,

462
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,600
you know, the best demand would
have come from the US.

463
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,720
And all of a sudden the
terrorists might make those, you

464
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,760
know, individual projects or
growth forecasts kind of

465
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,240
uneconomic for the time being.
And then some short term, you

466
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,320
know, so some of it must be a
factor of what is a, what is a

467
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,880
response to the, to the tariffs
and kind of recessionary kind of

468
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,520
conjecture.
But do you think that in the

469
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,280
long run that kind of just gets
washed out?

470
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,880
I I think look what happened
today.

471
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,800
The market roared in America.
Tariffs pulls.

472
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,760
After Yeah, well, that's just
not on China.

473
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:56,200
My entire my entire point is
that give it 90 days to six

474
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,240
months to see what Trump does
next.

475
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:08,080
Yeah, I think, I don't think
lithium's suffering more than

476
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,880
the other stocks.
I mean, I, I sold some Apple at

477
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:18,920
236 several weeks ago and bought
it back in 180.

478
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:27,880
So I'm using this time to adjust
My Portfolio.

479
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,480
That's what we say.
If we if we look at the supply

480
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,600
side of the supply demand
dynamic, how do you currently

481
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,320
sort of think about say over the
next kind of three years your

482
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,920
kind of view versus consensus on
on projects that can get up and

483
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:48,840
running?
Are you, are you a bit more kind

484
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,920
of bullish or do you think the
consensus is is a bit lofty?

485
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,200
What do you say that at the
moment, Joe?

486
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,200
Well, tell me what you think.
Consensus is that that would be

487
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:03,040
4.1.
I think that let's look at South

488
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,720
America.
Aaron met with great fanfare,

489
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,560
shipped 40 tons how many weeks
ago?

490
00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:17,639
They're struggling.
People don't like to talk about

491
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:22,639
that, but it's hard bringing
these projects on.

492
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:34,320
And Aramet wasn't really sure of
how to run their DLE at scale, I

493
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,000
think.
And they're they're learning,

494
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:41,960
not a job.
People talk love to talk about

495
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,880
Zigen and three QS.
How much have they produced?

496
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,320
I I think it's, it's, there's
going to continue to be a

497
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,320
struggle in 2526 from some of
the projects out there.

498
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,240
And then you got the smaller
projects that can't get

499
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:02,640
financed.
I mean, if you go back to the

500
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:07,720
Art of War bit, that's another
one of the benefits of

501
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:14,640
misinformation and misdirection.
As asset prices are go lower,

502
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,840
the Chinese can pick them up
cheaper to the extent that

503
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,320
they're allowed to do that.
If it doesn't get you know, you,

504
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:25,360
you take the geopolitics, which
are are also a factor.

505
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,160
But ultimately CATL is going to
pay the price for for this

506
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:34,200
because they're, you know, they
can't as the market goes from

507
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,640
850,000 when they started this
whole thing with a pedalite to 2

508
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,400
million.
Their ability to use a couple of

509
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,680
epidolite mines to control the
narrative is, is, is going to be

510
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,400
tougher.
Although, as I said earlier, we

511
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:56,000
they've also identified what
projects are economic at what

512
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,320
prices.
And it's really instructive to

513
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,800
see what capacity came off when
price got to 40, what project

514
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,400
came off when price got to 30.
You're going to see the the

515
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,360
reverse when if, if price goes
up and I price never should have

516
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:18,080
gotten to 40,000 in my opinion,
but I price can't stay where it

517
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,120
is.
Look at the look at the

518
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,560
financials of all the lithium
companies and how many

519
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,240
adjustments can you make to
EBITDA to try to make the story

520
00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:32,040
look good.
Depends how creative you are.

521
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,160
Yeah, I know a few creative
lithium companies.

522
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,280
Wouldn't be the, the only sector
that chucks in a few adjustments

523
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,480
to, to EBITDA?
What what did you make of the,

524
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,760
the SQM comments?
I think about a month ago now

525
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,680
they, they sort of forecast 25
to be flattish and that's not

526
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,160
what some people wanted to hear.
And then they sort of spoke to a

527
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,720
bit of a, a pick up.
How do you kind of wait what,

528
00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:01,760
what those guys kind of say?
What's your view on them?

529
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:10,200
I don't think price is going to
break out in 2025 either.

530
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,000
But if you, you look at the
history of SQL and they've

531
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,280
always been very conservative
about how they talked about

532
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,600
price and I think that that
continues.

533
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:30,640
So I, I just, I always take the
price forecast rhetoric with a,

534
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,680
with a grain of salt, but I
don't, I don't disagree with

535
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:39,920
them either in this, this time,
I think there's enough lithium

536
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:45,200
values rolling around in China
that price doesn't break out.

537
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,680
I think it'll be higher at the
end of the year than it was at

538
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,960
the beginning of the year.
But I don't think it, I think

539
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,040
that's a small number and I
think you get your spike.

540
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,920
And I've said this publicly
several times so far this year.

541
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:02,320
I think Q 4/20/26, you'll start
to see a little bit of a run.

542
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,680
Look at the GW hours that are
being made.

543
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:14,880
Look at the Western rhetoric.
Rhetoric is all about EVs

544
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,400
haven't grown as much as some
people expected in the United

545
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,840
States. the United States isn't
that big of a deal right now in

546
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,360
the EV world.
And China continues to go from

547
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:30,200
strength to strength and their
exports are are growing and and

548
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,120
Bess is exceeding everybody's
expectations.

549
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:39,040
So it's, it's, it's all about
the GW hours or terawatt hours

550
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:44,480
now.
So, so in that kind of subdued

551
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,720
environment, obviously you, you
kind of mentioned there that the

552
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:51,160
potential for Chinese given
geopolitics to, to scoop up.

553
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,720
But we have seen a couple other
deals which I'm keen to, to get

554
00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:58,280
your take on Pillbro or PLSA
company.

555
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,000
We know you're quite supportive
of went to went to Latin

556
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,960
America, they went to Brazil and
and scooped up Latin resources.

557
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,920
What, what was your kind of
perspective on, on that deal?

558
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:10,720
Did you?
Just go.

559
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,640
I thought it was a good I'll be
there in 2 weeks.

560
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:14,360
Two weeks.
Gotcha.

561
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,680
Yeah.
Yeah, I'll be actually I'll be

562
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,720
flying back two weeks gotcha
tonight.

563
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:27,840
So I'm, I like the Latin story.
Sigma's done a, a surprisingly

564
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,200
good job.
And I always say surprisingly

565
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,280
because people had low
expectations on Brazil.

566
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:40,520
I mean, if you look at the
lithium, the lithium world tends

567
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,920
to adopt change slowly, shall we
say.

568
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,760
And Brazil's really performed
better.

569
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,360
And you know, there's, there's
multiple projects down there and

570
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,280
I literally haven't been in
Brazil since 1996.

571
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,080
So I go to South America a
couple times a year.

572
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,440
But the last time I was in
Brazil was to try to get the

573
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,600
nuclear ban lifted.
They had, and we used to have to

574
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,920
get a license every time we sold
into Brazil.

575
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,080
And it was a cumbersome process.
So I'm happy to be going back to

576
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,200
Brazil.
I think Dale made a really good

577
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,720
decision.
I Dale's a very methodical guy.

578
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,880
And I think some messages were
also being sent there that hey,

579
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:30,000
this is it isn't just WA.
Yeah, well, that message was

580
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,720
clearly sent when they removed
their name from being Hilbert of

581
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:34,640
PLS.
But like I'm later.

582
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:36,600
But it is.
It's also a statement about the,

583
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:39,000
you know, the.
Isn't it PLS global?

584
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,680
It I can't remember, you're
probably right, but yeah, the

585
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,000
just.
Emphasizes the point.

586
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,040
It's also a statement about you
know their, their, you know

587
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,400
probable views on, on you know,
capital intensity and, and and

588
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,400
OpEx if the the relative
jurisdictions too.

589
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,520
Yes, I think the the other
Brazil's interesting too because

590
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,720
they're likely to have the full
blown supply chain.

591
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:10,360
You know, BYD is very active
down there and we'll we'll see

592
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,120
what happens where the whether
they have a full blown supply

593
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,680
chain before America does it
could happen.

594
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,680
That would be, that'd be quite
something to to behold there.

595
00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:28,240
There was one more bit of bit of
insight I wanted to get from you

596
00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:29,840
that was kind of company
specific.

597
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:35,400
And it's, it's in the, the sort
of West Farmers SQM joint

598
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,120
venture that we see here because
we really struggled to get good

599
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,800
info.
But we saw on the M&A front

600
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:46,040
rumors that Indian groups were
looking to to buy a sort of 20%

601
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:51,440
stake of SQMS proportion.
What, what's your sort of latest

602
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,760
info that you've got on on Mount
Holland and and the refinery

603
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,920
that they're they're doing and
any potential insight on on the

604
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:03,960
deal?
I can't really speak to exactly

605
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,560
what's going on in Mount
Holland, but I can tell you from

606
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,680
talking to some of the larger
industrial companies in India

607
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,160
that they have a real interest
in.

608
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,000
When a company comes and says
we're, we're going to spend in

609
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:24,440
the range of five to $15 billion
to try to go across the energy

610
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,480
storage system supply chain.
And we to do that to have

611
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,680
confidence, we want to be
vertically integrated.

612
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,360
And it's a credible, it's a
credible entity.

613
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,200
And I've talked to multiple
entities in India.

614
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,640
I can't speak to their specific
interest in SQM because I

615
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,200
actually told me how to go to
Argentina.

616
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:51,560
But what we'll see I, I think
it's completely plausible.

617
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:57,760
And I think SQM got outside of
their knitting by going to WA.

618
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,600
And I think it's been a tough
slog.

619
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:11,680
And maybe when I'm in WA in the
not too distant future I will I

620
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:18,920
will get better information, but
that's just been a a tough slog

621
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,880
for both W farmers and SQM.
Totally, totally.

622
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,800
I mean it was, it was such an
interesting move by SQM to come

623
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,960
to to WA in Hard Rock.
And in some ways it's kind of

624
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,120
forced upon them by the dynamics
of operating in Chile.

625
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:33,400
They could have gone to
Argentina.

626
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,000
They could have.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

627
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:36,960
That's a.
And done what they know how to

628
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:38,040
do.
Valid point.

629
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:43,720
For sure, yeah.
Although they had, they had one

630
00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:46,160
excursion into Argentina that
didn't work out too well and

631
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:51,280
Gangfen bought them out, but
they I think they would have had

632
00:43:51,720 --> 00:43:56,600
much greater success figure it
out Argentina brine versus out

633
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,080
of comma brine's rather than
going to Hard Rock.

634
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,200
And I think Mr. Ramos drank a
little bit of the Chris Ellis

635
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,720
and Kool-aid, and they'll pay
the price for it.

636
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,400
It's a big price to pay that
one.

637
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:17,960
I didn't say this was a happy
story.

638
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,920
There's not too many happy
stories in the Lithium land at

639
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:25,440
the moment.
You think?

640
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,840
Just yeah, I know you guys like
the pan lithium.

641
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:37,240
It's it's been it's been tough,
but what other and I will, I

642
00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:42,920
will pander to you Jonas and say
commodity has grown 10X in a

643
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,440
decade.
I I.

644
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,320
I take the other side, Judd, I,
I think you know from, from our

645
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:53,320
perspective, we're more excited
than we have been in, in a long

646
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,120
time on, on lithium because it's
trading so hard in the cost

647
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:58,760
curve.
I think there's a the the

648
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,720
realization though that our
assets in our backyard here in

649
00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:07,240
in WA perhaps don't sit on the
cost curve where we previously

650
00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:09,560
might have thought they see it
are.

651
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:11,960
Yeah, is it?
You're right.

652
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,200
It's a bit of pill to kind of
swallow for a lot of folks down

653
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,800
here, but you know, it throws up
sort of opportunities.

654
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,880
And I guess another point I was
curious to get your take on is

655
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,600
like green bushes.
It's it's tied up in a, in a

656
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,080
gnarly kind of ownership
structure.

657
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,440
But there comes a point in time
where if you're looking at WA

658
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:35,520
assets, the ones in our backyard
here that Greenbushes is, is

659
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,040
certainly one of the better ones
there.

660
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,320
So how do you kind of view that
and how do you view picking out

661
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:46,000
assets that sit low in the cost
curve in a, in a, a commodity or

662
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,840
a specialty chemical as you as
you kind of say when it's really

663
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,600
beaten up?
Well, I'm glad we're trying to

664
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,280
speak each other's languages
here.

665
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,120
Well, Greenbushes is the best
operating Hard Rock asset in the

666
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,840
world.
I mean, it's, it's not what it

667
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:12,640
once was, but it's still head
and shoulders above the other

668
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,400
from a cost perspective.
The problem with Greenbushes

669
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:21,360
from my perspective is the
convoluted ownership and it

670
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,120
would be better placed in one
company's hands.

671
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,840
That's not the case.
I I got to meet Ivan from IGO in

672
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,360
Florida in February.
Likable guy.

673
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:38,400
I am, you know, hoping that
things turn around for them and

674
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:45,120
but it's it it first of all,
have an apple marl who hasn't

675
00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:48,200
is, is zig when they should have
zagged and zagged when they

676
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:51,720
should have zigged for the last
seven or eight years.

677
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,360
That's tough.
Tansy's got their own set of

678
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:03,280
problems and layering on 2
failed hydroxide projects to the

679
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:10,320
world's greatest Hard Rock acid
just makes it all the more sad

680
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:19,040
story for the lithium industry.
What, what does the, the, the

681
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,040
future sort of hold for, for
Albemarle You've, you've, you

682
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,680
know, been been vocal on, on
your thoughts on, on a range of

683
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,880
dynamics at play within, within
the company.

684
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:33,920
But in a, in a downturn in a
company with, with debt, the,

685
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,080
the challenges can be pretty,
pretty sort of pressing.

686
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,240
How do you foresee the the next
few years playing out if we sort

687
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:45,600
of stay where we are in a sort
of perhaps plus 20 + 30% bound

688
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,040
on on lithium prices?
Yeah, I think if you got plus

689
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,360
30%, the world would be a lot
better place for Albemarle.

690
00:47:54,360 --> 00:48:02,840
But Albemarle's just made so
many missteps and they just

691
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:08,120
doing a podcast with them was,
which I was surprised they

692
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:12,000
actually did, but it was easier
to arrange.

693
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:18,920
I've never had more meetings to
arrange a podcast than they did

694
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,280
with Apple Marl.
Apple Marlles of is, has all the

695
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:29,760
bureaucracy of a huge oil
company and it's, it's a, it's a

696
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,440
relatively small company.
They hired too many people.

697
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:40,800
They had VPS like a, a bank and
and I, you know, I, I, I

698
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,120
continue to harp on it because I
continue to get calls from

699
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,360
people that leave the
organization that want to bare

700
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:51,040
their souls.
And I like to listen to it.

701
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:58,080
I don't think there's a I think
they need to clean out the

702
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,720
leadership and I think they need
a new board and I don't think

703
00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:03,840
that's about to happen.
So I it just you can't have a

704
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,240
palsy Walsy board.
You can't pay a guy that

705
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:09,720
performed like Ken has the kind
of money they've been paying

706
00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:11,840
him.
It's just it's a travesty as far

707
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:18,000
as I'm concerned, but I don't
really have feelings about it.

708
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,440
Yeah, it's it's hot, hot pressed
to to argue with a lot of those,

709
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,320
those perspectives.
No, they have the 2.

710
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,560
Two of the best assets out
there.

711
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:37,840
How can they be where they are?
Lack of good strategy, lack of

712
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:42,160
good tactics and lack of good
leadership.

713
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,560
Culminates in pretty, pretty
questionable capital allocation.

714
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,520
I mean, how many of there, any
of their growth projects or

715
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:53,720
everything have just been like 0
revenue generating decisions?

716
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,840
I felt like I was reading Mad
magazine, which I'm sure you

717
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:03,080
guys don't know what that is,
but it it was a kind of a.

718
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:05,960
Yeah, yeah.
Mad Magazine kind of sets it

719
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:12,360
off.
I when they were going to when

720
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,320
they made the offer for Lion
Town, I thought, this is

721
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,000
straight out of Mad Magazine.
I I don't get it.

722
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:19,800
And that that's no pejorative on
Lion town.

723
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:25,760
I love the guys at Lion Town.
You know, it's it's tough times

724
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:33,840
with the way the market is, but
I'm just saying that Gina, Gina

725
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,280
benevolently saved Apple Marl.
That's that's probably the

726
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:42,160
biggest irony of this decade in
lithium.

727
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:47,480
Who would have thought it would
be like that?

728
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,600
Well, yeah, I mean, it's, it's
been wicked to for us to ask you

729
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,800
the questions that that we have
about the space at the moment,

730
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,520
Joe.
Go ahead, punish me.

731
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,280
It's fine.
I I mean.

732
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,280
I I echo what Joe says like, you
know, we're, we're, we're, we're

733
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,480
of the yoke of certainly being
more interested in commodities

734
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,280
that have that have beaten up
then then they are when they're

735
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:13,440
when they're flying.
Kind of, you know, obviously the

736
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:17,160
the interest is far, far less
from from an audience

737
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:18,920
perspective when commodities are
beaten up than when they're

738
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,040
flying.
But for us individuals who who

739
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:22,800
look counter cyclically, then
yeah.

740
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:28,520
I am seeing in in what I do, I
I'm seeing there's, there's a

741
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,480
lot more interest now.
And I would just you asked a

742
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,120
question about India potentially
investing.

743
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:40,440
I think that's happening.
I think what Exxon and Ecuador

744
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,960
are doing, they're not worried
about the vagaries of lithium

745
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:44,200
price the next three or four
years.

746
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:49,120
It doesn't matter to them.
They they can do what they want

747
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,120
to do.
And and that's the that's the

748
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:53,320
positive side of the lithium
story.

749
00:51:54,520 --> 00:52:01,040
But to be a junior lithium
player right now is kind of like

750
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:08,000
perpetual purgatory.
The, the, the saving grace is

751
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:12,680
that the, the juniors flock with
a sort of rearview type mirror,

752
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:15,640
not a not a forward-looking type
outlook.

753
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:20,080
So yeah, put whatever sort of
weight into that as you will.

754
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,880
I'd, I'd be curious to, to hear
Joe, one thing that we notice,

755
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:27,840
given we're, we're both in the
podcast to, you know, sort of

756
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,520
game to an extent.
We, we definitely noticed the,

757
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:33,840
the interest in, in lithium
since we sort of started two

758
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,720
years ago.
Ebb, ebb and flow.

759
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:40,640
You know, it's sort of was very
high 2023 and it's sort of

760
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,320
trails off.
Is, is, is that a kind of

761
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:46,880
sentiment gauge the, the
viewership that you get in your,

762
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:48,880
your podcast?
Do you, do you notice that sort

763
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,680
of change substantially over,
you know, because you've done it

764
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:56,120
a lot longer than we have?
Well, I I spare my audience the

765
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:58,960
need to view me.
It's just my voice.

766
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,360
But no, I had to, it's, it's
really funny.

767
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,080
I mean, there's only one country
on earth where I don't have a

768
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:11,880
download and that's Bhutan and
that's Spotify stats, the 196

769
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:18,160
countries.
I can predict the first 48 hours

770
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,920
the podcast is up.
Doesn't matter who I have on,

771
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:26,120
I'm going to hit this number
this hour and and all the way

772
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:34,040
through.
I really haven't noticed much of

773
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:39,920
a difference in listenership.
Interesting.

774
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:45,280
Yeah, it is.
I, I have AI, have a loyal

775
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,360
following that they just like to
punish themselves every couple

776
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:49,320
of weeks.
I don't know.

777
00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:54,840
There was there was a couple
other assets and and companies I

778
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:56,520
wanted to get you you quick
takes on.

779
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:01,600
So we spoke earlier in the week
or maybe last week about Galan,

780
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:07,000
they suddenly announced that
they they bounced back an offer

781
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:10,120
and then latest rumors they're
coming out for a, a capital

782
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:12,000
raise.
What's your what's your take on

783
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,280
on the asset and on the the kind
of strategy?

784
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:24,000
They have been hamstrung by the
market conditions and I know

785
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,920
they have a lot of disgruntled
shareholders.

786
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:36,320
I understand a lot of people
bought it at the top and, you

787
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,400
know, are unhappy.
But if you look at what they're

788
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,920
trying to do, it's, it's a
tough, it's a tough market.

789
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,600
I, I don't, I have a little
money in Golan.

790
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:53,080
I, I, I'm a little underwater,
not much because I, you know,

791
00:54:53,160 --> 00:55:00,560
didn't, I bought it very late,
But I like, I like JP and I'm

792
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:04,440
very close to Daniel Jimenez.
I think it's a good asset.

793
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,640
And if I was going to sell it, I
certainly wouldn't take the

794
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:15,920
offer they got.
But yeah, moving it forward is

795
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:21,440
still a challenge.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

796
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:26,000
What one of the other assets was
Gulamina and you you spoke in a

797
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:31,000
in a recent podcast about this
sort of not not being the kind

798
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:35,000
of focus in a sense that the
game Fang is prioritizing

799
00:55:35,240 --> 00:55:37,640
Brian's.
But this is obviously a

800
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:44,280
substantial project and we we
hear about it a lot less since

801
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:48,680
the, you know, the, the the.
Leo, this is not Leo Lithium

802
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:50,400
anymore.
Yeah.

803
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:56,840
In a nutshell.
Yeah, I think Gang Fen, as well

804
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:00,160
as they've done, has a lot of
challenges because they have

805
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:08,120
multiple good brine projects.
But Gang Fen likes to talk about

806
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,200
Gang Fen speed and Gang Fen
speed is certainly true inside

807
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:15,200
China.
Gang Fen speed slows down

808
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:20,280
markedly outside of China and I
think the challenge they have

809
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:29,440
now is that they have such a big
portfolio that yeah, yeah, I

810
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:36,000
think they, you know Golomina, I
would think based on the

811
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:43,560
capacities they have and the
need for rock that that Golomina

812
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:49,760
gets gets the attention.
But I would be surprised if they

813
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:55,360
did additional significant Hard
Rock before they get some of the

814
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,960
bright assets online.
And I mean, just like at the

815
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:04,600
their last quarter announcement,
I mean, it's, it's tough times

816
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:10,920
even for a gang fan.
Fascinating stuff, Joe,

817
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,600
Appreciate you.
You making the time and letting

818
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:17,120
us pick your brain on on every
asset under the sun.

819
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,920
And yeah, letting us sort of
ponder what the West can do

820
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,560
about catching up with with the
the sort of bullet train that

821
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,960
China is.
Well, when the bullet train

822
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:34,600
leaves the station 10 years
before the next bullet train, it

823
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:40,360
is going to be hard to catch up.
But I, I do have a belief that

824
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:44,320
the US will have a hat or North
America will have a supply

825
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:49,120
chain.
But it's, it's not going to be

826
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:52,600
the scale of China.
It's not, it's just, it's, it's

827
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:57,120
going to be different.
They picked, they picked the

828
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:04,560
energy transition to focus on.
And we continue to dither about

829
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:10,520
battery packs and, you know,
subsidies.

830
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:15,720
And we are reaping what we
sowed.

831
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,160
We will keep paying attention,
that's for sure.

832
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:23,520
You when we reached out and
asked for interview, Joe, you

833
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,320
said only if you can ask us a
couple of questions at the end.

834
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:32,240
So you've got the floor.
Gentlemen, you've been doing

835
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:36,480
this now for two years.
Two years it will take, yeah.

836
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:44,320
Each of you, what have you
learned about yourself in the

837
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:51,560
process talking to people every
day and you'll answer that and

838
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:59,320
then I'll ask you a follow up.
It is rapid fire, boys.

839
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:01,880
It's.
A good thing we can edit.

840
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,480
I In the process of talking to
people every day, what have I

841
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:15,280
learned about myself?
I reckon I've learned that I can

842
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,240
change my mind more than I
thought.

843
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,600
I actually thought I was quite
like stubborn and would be very

844
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,200
stuck in an opinion.
But I think when you do speak to

845
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:25,840
lots of different, different
people, pick different

846
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,560
expertise.
I yeah, I do have a capability

847
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,480
to, to change my opinion,
especially when, you know, I

848
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:36,160
think the, the new person I met,
the new perspective is, is is

849
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:37,600
like, you know, they come from a
place of logic.

850
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:42,960
Yeah, it's a good, good
question, Joe.

851
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:46,480
The, the way I'd sort of answer
it is I think about the, I think

852
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,880
it's a Dunning Kruger effect.
And I think about like where,

853
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:52,800
where you are on, on the, the
range of sort of knowing

854
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:55,360
something about a, a particular
kind of subject.

855
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:59,360
And kind of bit bizarrely, I
feel like we, we learn more

856
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:03,440
every every day about mining.
And you know the, the gist of it

857
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,760
is that you, you think you know
a whole lot more when you're at

858
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:07,320
the beginning of the journey
and.

859
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,160
You know, every day for the last
two years, we, we learn more,

860
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,320
but I feel like I know less and
less and less.

861
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,160
And there's so many smart people
out there that have such sort of

862
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:19,560
nuanced and well thought out
views on, on topics that we sort

863
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,880
of dive into for a for a couple
of days.

864
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:25,200
And yeah.
And sort of got to, got to stay

865
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:26,800
true to it and think you're,
you're learning more.

866
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:31,080
But it's, it's amazing how much
is out there and, and the

867
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:34,000
knowledge that people sort of
build up like yourself doing

868
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:38,120
something for 20-30 years.
And yeah, to to finish that

869
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,360
piece off, we're we're pretty
grateful that the people do

870
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:41,760
share their their knowledge with
us.

871
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,520
What have you learned about
asking questions?

872
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:53,360
Say less.
Bingo.

873
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:00,440
I'm working on that one still.
But yeah, the, I think it's like

874
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,040
anything, interviewing people
is, is a skill and you don't get

875
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:06,480
good at it overnight, right.
So you need to just work on it

876
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:10,720
and work on it and work on it
and, and yeah, hopefully in 1020

877
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:17,320
years maybe you'll be OK at it.
Yeah, no, I actually think I

878
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:22,040
don't listen to you guys
everyday, but I, I do think you

879
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:26,440
ask, generally speaking, you ask
good questions and that that is

880
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:30,840
a skill.
And I think, I mean it, I think

881
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:35,120
you come to it.
And but I, I do think you hit

882
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:40,280
the nail on the head though.
It's talking less than listening

883
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:42,720
more.
Is is probably the answer in

884
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:45,840
that that was really what I had
to learn when I started doing

885
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:47,360
this.
It's hard when you like to talk,

886
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:58,000
isn't?
It, it isn't anymore, but yeah,

887
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:02,920
it, it, it probably it, it
probably that's the the big

888
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:08,440
transition.
And as a business, what have you

889
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:21,340
found is the biggest challenge?
I am loving the silence.

890
01:02:26,100 --> 01:02:32,520
The, the biggest, the biggest
challenge is sort of staying,

891
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:37,240
staying true to the, the kind of
mission you, you set out for

892
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:39,960
when, when money gets involved,
right?

893
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,560
You, you start out and we and we
start out wanting to be

894
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:47,400
independent and not take money
from, from mining companies.

895
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:52,760
And like, it's not that mining
companies have come and offered

896
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:57,760
us big cash, you know, paychecks
or anything like that, but you

897
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,880
know, it's all the stuff on the
edges, you know, and once you

898
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,640
start kind of doing this and
doing that, you get, you get

899
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:06,080
distracted or maybe you get, you
get kind of sloppy on the

900
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:09,040
fringes.
And I think just staying true is

901
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:11,520
the the the most important
thing.

902
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:15,680
Yeah, I and I, I kind of build
off that.

903
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:19,560
It's just it's focus.
I'd say it's like, yeah, one,

904
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:21,960
one thing someone else in media
once said to us was it's much

905
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,160
more important what you say no
to than what you say yes to.

906
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:29,760
And, you know, remembering to
say no very, very often is,

907
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:31,960
yeah, it's a big challenge.
Well.

908
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:40,120
When I met you guys and I asked
you what your day jobs were,

909
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:43,120
What are you saying?
He said.

910
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:50,520
He said, no, this is what we do.
And I thought, well, I I felt

911
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,440
like a shit because I was like,
I'm not, I didn't, I didn't mean

912
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:56,000
it as an insult.
I just, Yeah, You hadn't been

913
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,000
doing it very long.
I figured you guys must like

914
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:00,760
have jobs.
Yeah, I don't even know if it

915
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:04,640
was paying the bills completely
back then, Joe, but it was.

916
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:06,120
We're all just a bit he.
Was all pro bono.

917
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:08,240
We're all a bit delinquent and
thought we would give it a crack

918
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:09,440
and if it doesn't work, it
doesn't work.

919
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:12,720
But we're still here two years
later, which is a is a relief.

920
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:18,800
Well, give my regards to Maddie
and the next time I'm in town

921
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:22,000
I'm coming calling for one of
those money in mind shirts.

922
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:26,440
Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'd love to
have you in the studio and.

923
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,400
You know what I and this is, I'm
going to invite Dwayne Sparks to

924
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:34,400
be on this podcast with me when
I'm in Perth.

925
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:37,000
Call out Dwayne.
Make it happen.

926
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:39,720
If anyone, yeah, if anyone can
make him comment, it's you, Joe.

927
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:44,200
I, I, yeah.
I'd, I'd, we'd, we'd all welcome

928
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:45,960
that opportunity.
So let's hope it happens.

929
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:51,960
Well, I I think it will.
I have never met him either, but

930
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:56,800
he seems like a swell guy.
I think we're going to have to

931
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,760
go to Katani to to meet him
because he keeps running away.

932
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:03,680
Well, I'll go wherever.
I mean this.

933
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:07,280
This is my mission.
This is like a a pilgrimage

934
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,960
halfway across the earth.
To meet Dwayne.

935
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:14,200
Seeking Dwayne Sparks.
That can be the name of the

936
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:19,920
episode.
All right, guys.

937
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,400
Well, I think you're done with
me so.

938
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:24,640
Thank you so much, Joe.
We're never done with you.

939
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:28,200
The industry will never be done
with you because you have been

940
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,360
with it forever.
So thank you so much for for for

941
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:32,920
sharing your insight, your time,
your knowledge of the the past,

942
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:35,320
present and future.
We really.

943
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:37,400
Appreciate it.
You'll have a.

944
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:39,960
You'll have a mention in my
book.

945
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:48,920
Those pesky kids from Perth.
Nice alliteration, all right.

946
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:51,600
Cheers, Joe.
See ya.

947
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:55,400
Thank you very much, Mr.
Lithium, for connecting with us

948
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:57,520
back in Australia.
Good work boys.

949
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:00,920
Loved it, thanks to Joe.
It was a yeah, a pleasure to

950
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:03,480
catch up with him and and just
take stock of of everything in

951
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:05,920
a, in a market that's been
pretty tumultuous over over the

952
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:07,000
last couple.
Of years I'll see you went

953
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:09,680
podcast for podcast on to you
guys at the end.

954
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:11,360
He did.
Yeah, he did.

955
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:12,560
It was.
The condition of doing the

956
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:15,560
interview, Maddie, we'll extend
that.

957
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:17,920
Big thank you, Trev to our
awesome partners.

958
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,160
Get your tickets for the GRX
conference May.

959
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:22,960
I'm guard, I've got to book me
tickets after this actually.

960
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:26,280
May 20 to May 22nd in Brizzy.
Yeah mate, can't wait.

961
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:28,960
The Centre of Tech and
innovation count codes on the

962
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:30,840
show notes.
I'll check the LinkedIn post up.

963
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:33,320
Use the code otherwise they'll
think we're shit.

964
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:37,360
Buddy mentioned in the show MMS
and grounded.

965
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:41,520
We're got bloody sandy ground
sports CR insurance K drill WA

966
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:47,560
water wars quattro kca black
diamond drilling services the

967
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:52,400
cross boundary energy udaru.
Information contained in this

968
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:55,160
episode of Money of Mine is of
general nature only and does not

969
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:57,800
take into account the
objectives, financial situation

970
01:06:57,840 --> 01:06:59,840
or needs of any particular
person.

971
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:03,200
Before making any investment
decision, you should consult

972
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:06,240
with your financial advisor and
consider how appropriate the

973
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:09,120
advice is to your objectives
financial situation.

974
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:09,960
And needs.