An unfiltered conversation with Jennifer Hewett

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Right on money miners.
End of the year is approaching

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and the recaps are coming in
great.

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And tell you what, this one's a
bloody We've pulled an absolute

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legend out of the journalism
industry.

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This is awesome.
It helped that on you very well,

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Jenny.
Jennifer Hewitt from the

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Australian Financial Reviews,
that illustrious career as a

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columnist in multiple media
organisations.

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Bloody good friend of mine, like
she's begging me to come on but

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not squeezed her in and it was a
chase.

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She knows a shit wealth.
Of knowledge.

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I've got to admit I was very
surprised at your friends after

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meeting her like.
Different, different walks of

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life.
Yeah.

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Expectations were high and, you
know, they were exceeded.

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It's a cracking chat so.
Yeah, so pretty like everything

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on politics, energy, lot on
energy in in Australia, China,

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Trump.
Resource policy, everything.

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Yeah.
Super, super fascinating chat.

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Oh.
I was, it was, I could, I reckon

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if we kept going we could have
bird her up like.

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Alright.
Because on our age, you know,

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doesn't doesn't step not
backwards in coming forward.

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Got some good opinions.
I loved it.

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Definitely so close to
Christmas, but 13 days not as

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close to in Darba.
But yeah, it's getting closer

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every day.
Getting closer every day.

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Can't wait.
We're pumped.

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We're going to go there.
Yeah, mate, I'm excited for

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that.
That's going to be a highlight

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of next year.
But yeah, in the interim, going

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to look forward to listening to
to Jenny on this party.

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But one thing we didn't mention
in this I can't believe I

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completely forgot to even bring
it up.

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Do you remember I was telling
you about that famous saying at

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Daisy Milano?
Get salt Bush to do it.

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OK?
I don't know.

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Surprised Jenny didn't mention.
It it's in the folklore there,

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hey?
I just read like there was the

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shittest job even if the Danny
was broken.

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So oh, that's a salt Bush job.
Salt Bush contracting that is

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they're contractors.
They will do anything not move

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and rock from A to B with these
beautiful haul trucks.

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I'll show here only one aspect,
contractors.

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They will do anything on your
mind site.

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Go ahead.
And run for a brick wall for.

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You give yourself an early
Christmas present and.

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Just.
Have this fleet that I'll bring

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up right now go on across your
countryside, moving rock from A

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to B and making new money via
salt Bush contracting.

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Could not be easier.
Details are in the show notes.

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They're busy.
Merry Christmas, When your kids

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ask you dad, mum what do you
want for Christmas, just reply

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and say I want salt Bush
contracting to do something for

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me to do it for.
Me go salt Bush.

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Can't salt Bush.
I would say one of my best

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friends.
Not just because she's.

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From the IFR, my great friend
Jenny Hewitt.

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The historical University
connection still talks to me.

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Welcome to our show, Jenny.
Pleasure to be.

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Here, thank you.
Sorry to interrupt your holiday.

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Well, I know I wasn't expecting
any less from you, of course.

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Well.
After all the years you've been

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begging me to come on, I thought
I'd finally.

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Make it.
I do appreciate it.

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I do appreciate.
It make it happen for you so.

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Maddie, we, we're doing.
A favour mate because like you

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know you're, you're bringing her
onto our platform but in the

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past Jenny brought you onto the
AFRS platform.

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That was Bloody Merts, her
daughter.

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Who tricked me into doing an
article about my CFD losses?

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And I'm like, once it come out,
I'm like, so am I getting paid

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for this?
She's like, no, no, it's a

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great.
I've done a lot of attention.

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I'm like, you stitched me up
there.

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Yeah, yeah.
Just demonstrated how you well,

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you shouldn't do what you did.
I think it was a good lesson.

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Still doing it.
I'm making a bit of money out of

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them.
Those days I don't, right?

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So for those who don't know, the
great Jennifer Hewitt is a

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columnist for the IFR.
God, you've been at the Oz.

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You've let's just say you've
been doing it.

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For I've been doing it some
time. 20 years or so and I'll

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get in trouble when I'll talk
about how long you've been

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riding for, Jenny.
But national affairs, you'd say?

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Politics.
Bit of bit of mining buddy.

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Just a bit of every.
Critical minerals, energy, the

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interplay of all of that.
International, yeah, everything

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basically, right, Jack of all.
Trades.

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You're warming up all the
conferences for me, the MC

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roles, because once you finish
up, Jenny, I'm going to take

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over.
Oh, don't, don't worry, I'll be

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recommending you.
Right.

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Let's let's let's take it away.
Should we start with energy

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policy?
Now, we we generally try and

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steer clear of, of politics
because it can be, you know,

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yeah, you can alienate a good
bit of the audience.

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But I think this conversation is
going to veer into it

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specifically as it relates to
commodities.

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And I think one of the the
interesting spots to start this

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one, Jenny, is the nuclear
policy.

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You've written a bit about this
over the past year and it's

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become a real flashpoint between
the Coalition and the Labor

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Party.
So from from your perspective,

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you know, you, you live in
Sydney and you're right from

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about these topics from a bit of
a different lens to what we see

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here in Perth.
But how much of A sort of hot

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rod is this at the minute and
what sort of role do you think

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it's going to play over the next
year in Australia?

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Oh, I think the energy policy is
going to be huge.

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And the reason the energy policy
is going to be huge is of

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course, the fact that the, it's,
so the energy market at the

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moment is extremely
dysfunctional, showing years and

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years and years of, you know,
crazy policies and, and refusal

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to accept reality and things.
So you've got the coalition's

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nuclear policy, which I think
they're going to announce a few

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more details quite shortly
before Christmas, possibly this

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week, I think.
But but as well as that, you've

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got the renewables policy, which
the federal government has and

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that relies obviously on the
great expansion of renewables.

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But what they're kind of
neglected for some time until

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reality kind of came and hit
them in the head was that the

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you need firming power, whether
it's gas, whether it's hydro,

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whether it's batteries.
And basically they neglected

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gas.
They just, Chris Bowen, the

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energy minister, could hardly
say the word for at least the

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first year.
And then at the same time you've

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got state governments like NSW
and Victoria, particularly

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Victoria, where they just
refused to acknowledge that they

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would need gas development as
well.

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So anyway, the result is you've
got coal fired power stations

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which are, you know, obviously
ageing, but also not only that

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they're kind of uneconomic to
run.

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And so the investment to even
keep them going hasn't been

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there.
And so like a couple of weeks

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ago, we we're in this ludicrous
position where the the NSW

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Premier is begging, begging
citizens to turn off their dish,

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not turn on their dishwashers or
air conditioning after 3

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o'clock.
Bloody hell.

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Shocking for a for a country
like Australia with the the

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abundance that we have that we
kind of get to this point.

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Do do you see a big change in in
gas?

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Have we reached that tipping
point now and do you expect the,

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you know, incumbent government
to really change their tone

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coming into an election in the
in the next half year now?

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Well, they've changed their
tone, but, but of course it's

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not as though you can say, oh
look, we've changed our tone on

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gas and therefore it'll be all
this gas that's suddenly

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available.
I mean, and, and, and, and the

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other issue is that NSW and
Victoria have, state governments

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have just refused basically to
extend or, or allow development

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of gas for years and years and
years.

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And so therefore there is a kind
of a great shortage.

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So it has, you know, a lot of it
comes from Queensland, maybe

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from SA, but it's a very fragile
rickety system.

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And just because you've changed
your tone doesn't mean that

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there's going to be a sudden,
you know, availability, easy

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supply of gas.
Where are they going to put the

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plants over there?
Are they proposing to put them

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in anywhere?
Well, gas forward points.

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Well, they've got, you know, a
couple that are, you know,

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underway, but it won't be nearly
enough.

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And then there's this whole
thing about the LNG import

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terminals where you've.
Got Bay in the middle Middle

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East.
Well, of course, you know,

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there's arguments about where
they, you know, the

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environmental arguments about
whether they should be allowed.

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But I think the most really the
advanced one, most advanced is,

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is Andrew Forrest's at Port
Kembla.

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Surprise, surprise, surprise.
But you know, even then they

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still haven't got contracts for
a lot of the gas, the squadron

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energy that about long term
contracts.

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So like, I just think it's so
uncertain and it all relies on

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the fact that everything kind of
keeps in balance.

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And also that if there are kind
of hot days or or a wind drought

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or something that that industry
winds back dramatically on its

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use of of power, which doesn't
seem to be a particularly

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sensible way to run energy
policy.

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You know, in the twenty 20s.
Let's face it not.

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In the biggest city in the
country.

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No, but also the in terms of
nuclear energy and of course,

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even at best, at best what the
coalition is talking about is

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that you're beginning to
beginning to get gas.

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I'm sorry, nuclear energy
possibly in the mid twenty 30s,

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not really going getting going
to the twenty 40s.

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What our problem is the next
decade, particularly.

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It's also a a change in tone
from privatisation of, of energy

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in Australia right to a, a
stance where you know, these 7

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reactors would be built, built
by the government, or at least

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you know, the government having
a significant role and.

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Well, government owned,
government owned, government

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owned.
It is a kind of slightly bizarre

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thing that you've got the
coalition saying, yes, yes,

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we'll, we'll, we'll own all
these, these guests, these,

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sorry, these nuclear power
stations.

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We'll build and construct, build
them and own them.

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That is a very bizarre position.
Will that happen with gas do you

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think?
Well, I think gas.

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It doesn't have to.
No, it doesn't have to.

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With gas, not as much I think,
but they've got to have the

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right settings in place to
allow, you know, gas to, to be

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developed which.
Means it's reserves, but the

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hold up has been permitting
these great reserves to actually

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even come online.
Yeah, well, I mean Vic.

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There's a skill set.
Yeah, and Victoria in particular

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has been like the energy
minister, they've been there for

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a long time.
Lily Dambrosio, despite the fact

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it's such a gas dependent state.
I mean, as far as she's

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concerned, gas is anathema.
And and of course, the hilarious

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thing is they're also, you know,
talk about, talk up their

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environmental credentials.
Well, because they've refused to

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allow any gas development, what
they use instead is brown coal

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and, you know, the dirtiest fuel
of all.

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And they've got a couple of
secret deals to subsidise the

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continuation of brown coal
because of this state they're

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in.
Yeah, the enormous Loy Yang got

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got extended and another one in
the in the Latrobe region there

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as well.
Just on, you know, continuing on

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on coal there for a moment.
I got over the past couple

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years, we saw a massive tick up
in in the royalties state based

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in Queensland as well as NSW.
Do you do you think that's now

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at a level and do you think that
could be more politicised as a

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as a means for paying for this
this transition again?

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And you know, that was to the
uproar of the mining sector in

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particularly in in Queensland,
where groups like BHB said we're

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not putting a dollar more into
this state.

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00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,720
Given what you've done, do you
do you see that being further

228
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,400
used or have they used that as
much as they could?

229
00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:04,800
They will.
The state government in

230
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,880
Queensland, well they've now got
a new Coalition government

231
00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,760
there, LNP government rather,
and I can't imagine that they're

232
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,240
going to increase royalties
anymore.

233
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,400
I mean basically it just makes
it too difficult.

234
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,240
They won't increase them, but
will they reduce them?

235
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,240
I'm not sure they will reduce
them actually, I think in that

236
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,320
sense, unless they can get a,
you know, big thing of

237
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,600
investment from someone like
BHP, which I'm not sure that

238
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,000
will be the case because there's
many other issues that would

239
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:36,320
affect the investment model.
So I I would doubt that, but

240
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,200
because they're in such kind of
dire financial straits or fiscal

241
00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,000
straits with their budget.
Their own state.

242
00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:43,800
Yeah, situation first.
Yeah, so.

243
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,400
Do you think they're going to be
because uranium mornings, the

244
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,280
other one in Queensland as well
that I think is there the

245
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,360
incumbent LMP, are they looking
a bit more pro for mining, a

246
00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,800
little bit less red tape maybe?
Well, maybe a bit less, bit less

247
00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:03,600
red tape.
I mean, you, you, that's

248
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,240
certainly their, their
inclination.

249
00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,280
Of course, whether or not how
that develops is another matter.

250
00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,720
I mean, you've always got to
have, you know, there's so many

251
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,760
kind of environmental rules
these days.

252
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,760
So they'll they'll try that, but
without being too radical

253
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,040
because I think that's going to
be an issue.

254
00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,880
But clearly that's that's where
they'd like to go a bit more.

255
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,720
Yeah, yeah, well, we're just,
we're just talking to our great

256
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,600
friends at iMac and talk about
people that know everything

257
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,320
about native title and heritage
and holy snap and duck shit

258
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,600
there is some.
Oh, you beat your head against

259
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,200
the wall.
Yeah, and I'm not even running

260
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,200
the companies.
Well, it's, I mean, it's very,

261
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,600
it's very hard to to open a mine
anywhere.

262
00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:50,280
Yeah, but it's other than maybe
somewhere in Africa, but it's

263
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,360
it's.
Although it just gets taken off

264
00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,240
you later on.
Yes, Well, that's that, of

265
00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:55,800
course, I mean, but that's a big
issue.

266
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,960
I mean, but in Australia, it's
become more and more difficult

267
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,560
to open a mind anywhere.
And I don't think that's going

268
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,280
to change.
And in terms of the delays and

269
00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,800
everything, and of course,
that's one of the things that is

270
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,640
always going to be an issue
because people suddenly kind of

271
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,840
go, oh, wow, I think we really
need this now.

272
00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,120
And you're talking 10-15 years
before you begin to see first

273
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,400
production at best.
When, when the the Regis

274
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,840
decision come over about
Mcfillimy's like obviously we're

275
00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,600
in, we're in the mining state
and like it's, it's, you know,

276
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,120
big news for us and like we talk
about it everyday.

277
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,960
But like in Sydney and
Melbourne, like what's the does

278
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,200
the, is the general public that
aware of what goes on in mining

279
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,320
and and that sort of stuff
specifically whether it's in NSW

280
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,640
or not, what's the vibe like
over there?

281
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,400
Well, I think for anybody who's
in the mining industry in those

282
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,040
states, obviously it's huge.
But I think it's a very, very

283
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,360
different vibe in NSW and
Victoria.

284
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:56,080
It's, you know, it's a bit as,
you know, like like little kids

285
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,240
when, when you get a quarter
milk and they think the milk

286
00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,320
comes from the, the supermarket.
You know, I think a lot of

287
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,560
people in New South Wales and
Victoria actually forget where

288
00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,440
things come from.
So I think the Mcfillimmie's

289
00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:12,040
decision was, was a very big
issue for anybody who's

290
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,440
interested in mining and
understands what's going on.

291
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:19,080
And it also for regional areas.
But in terms of the city and,

292
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,120
you know, most people in Sydney
and Melbourne, I don't think

293
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:23,120
they would have heard of it or
paid much attention.

294
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,400
What are the extent they did
they think, Oh, well, that's you

295
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,320
know, that's a good idea.
Yeah, what are they interested

296
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,200
in?
Mostly over there Rugby league

297
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,360
poker machines.
I mean, it's, it's the, it's the

298
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,840
West world in a, in a microcosm,
right?

299
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,440
Yeah.
What's the US opened a few mines

300
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,160
in the past few decades and
Europe's barely, barely got an

301
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,160
operation.
And, you know, there's protests

302
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,920
in the street when you open a,
when you want to open one

303
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,200
lithium mine or something like
that.

304
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,800
So it's kind of reflective of of
where we are as a society.

305
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,800
Yeah, that's like this kind of
gap between what's needed, yeah

306
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,200
and what people want.
And, and I mean, I did use to

307
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,840
think it was kind of quite
humorous was when for a, you

308
00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:06,440
know, a couple of years ago,
everybody was talking about

309
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,520
green metals and, and people
didn't really understand what it

310
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,600
meant, but they thought, oh,
that's got to do with the energy

311
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,040
transition.
So therefore, that's fine.

312
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,840
That's a kind of a different
form of mining, as if they'd

313
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,520
never seen a lithium mine or
something.

314
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,880
It was very weird.
Bloody dash, that'll find you

315
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,440
some of that green metal.
If you want to find green metal.

316
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,760
If you want to make green metal.
The GF is champions.

317
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:26,920
Oh well, won't they mate?
But.

318
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,040
Actually mate GF is look there
is green on the page when you

319
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,040
get the the GF is data.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

320
00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,440
There you go.
And you gotta, I'm pretty sure

321
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,200
Dash sort of the only company
that are doing geofis in the

322
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,080
country at the moment.
Yeah, they put it on the

323
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:41,640
decline.
Yeah, Mike.

324
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,640
And Speaking of Christmas
presents, like they've already

325
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,960
got 8 gravity crews working in
WA at the moment.

326
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,080
They've got an office in the
heart of WA, Kalgoorlie.

327
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,760
Impressive mate.
They get mate, if you ring them

328
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,480
up and say heard about your
money and mine, they are going

329
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,400
to give free mobilisation for
any new WA contracts for

330
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:08,000
December, January free that is
ho ho ho merry Daish SAT you

331
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:09,080
don't.
Give yourself a Christmas

332
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:10,640
present.
They're called Daish SAT.

333
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,160
Bye Did.
I say they've got 8 gravity

334
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,120
crews working in WA.
And might they're still giving

335
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,600
away ship for free?
That is, that is impressive.

336
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,440
That's a Daish.
You are the opposite of the

337
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,880
Grinch you are saying.
Decades of experience as well.

338
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,480
He's just Santa he's he's and
not and what not one of those

339
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,400
drunk Sanders that are in the
shopping centres like the legit

340
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,120
centre.
But mate, David, but as we said,

341
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,320
gravity magnetics, and that's
from ground drone or helicopter

342
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,240
radio metrics, passive seismic,
soul sampling, mate, anything

343
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,440
before you wanna drill a fucking
hole, pretty much, Dash, that

344
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:46,640
will tell you where to put the
hole.

345
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,600
Free mobilisation.
What are you waiting for?

346
00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,920
Oh.
What are you waiting for right

347
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:52,720
now?
Let's get back into it.

348
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,880
Sorry to interrupt.
Yeah.

349
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,760
What did you you heard any
feedback of the what was it?

350
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,760
The Nuclear nuclear Energy
review that just happened in

351
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:06,880
Canberra last week.
Well, of course the the

352
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,000
coalition is saying that's a
completely biassed, you know,

353
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,680
political thing because they
talked about how much it was

354
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,520
going to cost.
And they said, you know,

355
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,400
renewable energy with firming
was still much cheaper than

356
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,240
nuclear power.
And that may well be the case,

357
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:26,000
but I probably is the case.
But I don't think that the

358
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,000
government's argument that
renewables and is going to be,

359
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,040
you know, it's obviously
cheaper.

360
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,040
Remember, I don't know, you
probably don't remember.

361
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,360
But in the last election
campaign, they were saying,

362
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:39,240
well, of course it's cheaper
because, you know, solar, the

363
00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,720
sun's free, wind's free, you'll,
your power bills are going to go

364
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,000
down.
And nobody was actually

365
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,160
acknowledging that with, with
the cost of all the transmission

366
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,640
and, and, and converting solar
and wind power is actually

367
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,800
incredibly expensive.
And, and so no matter what

368
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,280
happens, I don't know how much,
but we're all going to be facing

369
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,840
much higher power bills.
And your only hope is really

370
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,320
that, you know, there'll be
technological advances that'll

371
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,600
make batteries kind of somewhat
cheaper, certainly hydropower, I

372
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,440
think in Australia, like all the
dreams of that if you just look

373
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,440
at Snowy, yeah, I mean, it's,
it's just a disaster really in

374
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,160
terms of the cost of that.
So I I feel.

375
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:19,560
That that's the fear of the
government.

376
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,160
No, not working, won't be
working till for years.

377
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:24,960
Yeah, right.
And it's, I think it's, you

378
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,280
know, the original cost and
Malcolm Turnbull put it up was

379
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,680
like $2 billion.
I mean, it's now it's.

380
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,080
At 12 is. 12 and counting, yeah,
and nowhere near finished.

381
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,200
And that doesn't include the
transmission lines, yeah.

382
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,640
Yeah, it was a similar issue to
to wood Smith in some ways to

383
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,840
rotating boar head to stop
working.

384
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:42,120
The geotech wasn't done
properly.

385
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:46,440
And yeah, all of a sudden, you
know, you can't, you know, like

386
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,160
he can't sink this shaft any any
further, you know?

387
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,920
Yeah.
We're Speaking of sort of CapEx

388
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:53,800
blowouts and and government
money.

389
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,320
We should talk about any other.
So this you know popped up in

390
00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,120
the headlines just earlier this
week.

391
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:03,760
Government gone from 1.2 and a
bit to to 1.6 and we'll see if

392
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,000
that's a kind of pit stop on the
way.

393
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,760
What, what do you kind of make
of this and the the broader sort

394
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,440
of push for these, you know,
very specific rare earth

395
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,040
investments by the government?
Well, of course, this was the,

396
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,920
the 1st $1.2 billion came up at
the dying days of the Morrison

397
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,960
government.
Yeah.

398
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,320
And so they decided to kind of
go ahead with that.

399
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,400
And, but kind of in a sense that
was all the kind of gung, gung

400
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,880
ho.
This is our future.

401
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,000
You know, we've, we've said, oh,
we're no longer going to be

402
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:40,640
reliant on, on minerals like
like iron ore or coal.

403
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,960
Well, there's a whole new future
here in, in, in critical

404
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:44,240
minerals and rare earths and
things.

405
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,360
And I don't think people quite
understood how complicated this

406
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,640
was.
And in a sense, incredibly even

407
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,560
more expensive, but without the
scale.

408
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,440
And so I so, but, but they had
them kind of over a barrel, I

409
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,840
think with the government,
because they could say, well,

410
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:02,880
you know, we've got the $1.2
billion.

411
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,520
We can't actually go any further
unless you give us more money.

412
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,280
And and you've seen that in a
few instances.

413
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,760
I'm not sure, you know, really
how effective that will be.

414
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,040
Clearly there's a whole lot of
talk about supply chains and

415
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,320
diversifying away from China
and, and this is a, you know, an

416
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,240
option for Australia and it's
going to be all these kind of

417
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,840
great possibilities, but I'm not
sure about the economics of any

418
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,960
of it really at the moment.
And our unfortunate success in

419
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,760
downstream processing of light,
it's probably not the best as a

420
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,160
country.
Lack of success?

421
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:40,800
Yeah.
Well, yeah, that's right.

422
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,880
I mean because it's.
I wish it was.

423
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,760
Yeah, but like, but again, it,
it was that thing.

424
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:50,400
It's a bit like the whole dream
of, you know, renewables, but

425
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,160
even more complicated because
it, it sounds like a great

426
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,960
vision.
Oh, we've got all this natural,

427
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,640
natural resources here.
We'll just kind of make use of

428
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,240
them and it makes more sense.
And, and they're whether it was

429
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,320
Roger Cook or Anthony Albanese,
they're they're talking about,

430
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,200
oh, we're gonna be this great,
you know, battery manufacturer.

431
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,480
And and I don't think anybody
had any understanding of how

432
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,400
complicated it was, how what a
protracted process it was, what

433
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,760
skills you were needed and also
how expensive it would be.

434
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:18,800
We want to get paid too much in
Australia.

435
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:20,680
Well, we can't.
You can't compete.

436
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,560
Well, in that sense, it's very,
very hard to compete.

437
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,280
And the only reason that you
could compete if people were

438
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,720
willing to pay more and have
that kind of premium.

439
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,280
And, and maybe in some cases
over time that will happen, but

440
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,000
at the moment there's not much
evidence of that.

441
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,200
Isn't that like to the extent
Australia's been a tremendously

442
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,240
rich country over the last
couple of decades, been driven

443
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,320
by like selling our raw
materials to China and now what

444
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,360
we want to, we think we can, we
can produce stuff to have like

445
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,520
independent supply chains from
China.

446
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,000
Like it's an absurd proposition
that to think that we don't need

447
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,080
each other.
Yeah, well, that is a kind of an

448
00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:01,080
absurd proposition, but it is
also, you know, real that

449
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:04,320
China's China's behaviour has
become much more aggressive and

450
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,440
much more threatening to
stability, regional stability

451
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,920
over over that same period.
And so it's not surprising that

452
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,440
people are going well.
Is this, is this such a great

453
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,760
idea?
I mean, the fact is that China's

454
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,760
ability to dominate processing
everybody else kind of missed

455
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,800
the boat a bit, including the
US, obviously.

456
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:31,000
So I'm look, it's a really, it's
a devilish problem, but I do

457
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:37,520
think you would have to be
concerned about the fact that

458
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,000
China's, China's ability to turn
this on and off less to do with

459
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,400
Australia and more to do with
its own kind of geopolitical

460
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,680
interests and the US and the
tension there.

461
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,240
And I think you've already seen
it because the US has now under

462
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,000
the Biden administration in, you
know, heavens knows what's going

463
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,840
to happen under the Trump
administration.

464
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,320
But under the Biden
administration, they've just put

465
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:02,080
some more restrictions ON
Semiconductor, you know, aspects

466
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,240
of the semiconductor industry
and who can do business with

467
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:10,640
Chinese companies.
And China has already retaliated

468
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,880
with some of the greater bans
and restrictions on supplying

469
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,360
some of the rare earths like
gallium.

470
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,960
So it's going to be, you know,
it's a very tense period, but

471
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,040
the so, but the so you
understand the appeal, the

472
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,520
intellectual appeal of having
alternative supply chains, but

473
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,680
the business and commercial
aspects as well as the kind of

474
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:35,080
physical aspects still to be
worked out, putting it mildly.

475
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,680
Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm concerned
that, you know, we'll be sitting

476
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,920
here 8 years from now and any
other will be $5 billion of

477
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,000
taxpayer money lit up with zero
return.

478
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,080
Yeah.
And we all saw the writing on

479
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:48,280
the world.
Well, you know, that's the

480
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,480
concern I have.
Yeah, no, I, well, I think

481
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,760
that's, that's a very real
concern.

482
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,200
But I guess you then you have to
say, all right, well, what's

483
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,960
your return if you don't put
money in and you just say, well,

484
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:02,480
we just won't do any of this
because there's no, there's no

485
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,000
other way.
It's going to be commercial.

486
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:10,400
There's two, I think it's two
alternatives like 1 is, yeah,

487
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,920
focus on massive energy
abundance in a lot of ways, like

488
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,600
how we're going to have
competitive downstream in any

489
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,440
way, shape or form with the with
the status quo.

490
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,680
The other one is, yeah, is is,
you know, special economic zone

491
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,680
or integrated like industrial
parks that have tax concessions

492
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,920
which encourage private
investment and then allow the

493
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,240
private sector to come up with
its own investment thesis model,

494
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,240
its own returns.
And instead of the kind of

495
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,360
government saying you're,
you're, you're the person that

496
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:40,080
can do this best.
But we'll keep keep tipping up

497
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:41,840
as you have blowouts, which will
definitely happen.

498
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,600
Yes, well, I think that's right.
I mean, Australia, but WA in

499
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,880
particular has, is promoting,
you know, its ability to set up

500
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,120
industrial parks and things like
that.

501
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:56,360
And you've obviously got banana
and then they've got a new, new

502
00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:57,800
ones planned, I think in the
Pilbara.

503
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,840
And, but I mean, I was just
driving past Camerton Industrial

504
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,800
Park near Bunbury and you know,
that is actually, that was

505
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,240
decades ago that was set up.
You still don't have proper

506
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,040
environmental approvals.
You don't have land approvals,

507
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,200
you don't, you don't have proper
power, you don't have

508
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,080
connections.
Like it's a joke.

509
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,200
And I think when Albemarle set
up there for its lithium

510
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,440
processing plant, that was a
kind of pretty big deal and they

511
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,480
were going to expand it.
Well, of course, there were two

512
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,240
things that happened. 1 is that
the lithium prices, you know,

513
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:30,560
the collapse and the lithium
price.

514
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,600
So clearly that's not as nearly
as attractive as it was.

515
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,480
But the other, the other problem
has been it's just so difficult

516
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,200
to do business down there.
It's not as though if you've got

517
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,280
choices about where to invest,
you'd, you'd choose somewhere

518
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,560
that they weren't even at the
beginning.

519
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,880
But if you compare that to some
of the industrial parks and

520
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,440
somewhere like Indonesia for
Nickel where you know, it's all

521
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,480
ready to go.
And they do have that kind of

522
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,840
shared infrastructure, shared
skills, shared worksite,

523
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,240
everything's there ready to go.
And, and yet we don't manage

524
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,920
that at all.
And I think that's one of the

525
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,600
issues with where the government
could have and should have and

526
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,360
do something more than it than
it has, but it doesn't want to

527
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:15,360
spend the capital investment on
something that's going to be

528
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,040
years before there is actually a
good return.

529
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,480
With talking about the Pilbara,
it fascinates me that like the

530
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,000
quantity of work that happens up
there and most of it is run on

531
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,960
diesel, like the infrastructure
up there.

532
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,080
I just, like I think someone
said Rio Tinto choose through 9

533
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,760
billion litres of diesel a year.
Like yeah, that's for the

534
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,280
Pilbara, the iron ore side of
things and everything is

535
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,120
freaking huge, what they
operate.

536
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,040
Is there any talk of putting
energy infrastructure in at the?

537
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:47,960
Oh, no, there's a lot, there's a
lot there.

538
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,520
You know, a lot of them are like
Rio and and FM GB H they're

539
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,560
they're building solar farms,
They're trying and they've got

540
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,560
all these commitments to try and
move reduce the the level of

541
00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,560
diesel.
They're still, I mean, the

542
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,080
trucks are obviously a big
issue.

543
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,280
I mean, because, you know, it's
just not the technology's not

544
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,200
there for for a lot of the
trucks to be electric and

545
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:09,880
things.
But, but in terms of the power

546
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,840
they're using, there's a, you
know, there's huge advances

547
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,200
being made on that in terms of
solar and wind power putting in

548
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,200
their own energy infrastructure.
What about a gas pipeline from

549
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,560
some?
Yeah.

550
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:24,480
They kind of have their own.
Base base load like gas or

551
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,520
anything to go up there?
I'm not sure I'm not.

552
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:28,960
I think they're more
concentrating.

553
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,000
There's obviously going to be
some gas, but I think they're

554
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,080
more concentrating on on wind
and solar with kind of gas or

555
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,560
with with backup diesel,
whatever it's it's but I think

556
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,200
you would be astonished because
they're so big and so massive.

557
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,400
They can put in those giant
projects, whether or not they're

558
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,560
going to do them themselves or
whether they're going to get a

559
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,600
third party to do them.
That's all become more

560
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,840
complicated.
And of course, the also the

561
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,200
other issue is the kind of whole
native title thing.

562
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,600
And that becomes if you're
taking over much more land,

563
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,000
that's also complicated as well.
But these things take years

564
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,520
basically to develop.
Is there and is there much argy

565
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,840
bargy between them?
Because I assume that between

566
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,720
the like the big three and
probably Chuck Hancock in there

567
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,160
as well.
It's like right, who's building

568
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,320
it, who's paying for it, who's
using it like because they all

569
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,600
want to like you.
You see the bloody jewel rail

570
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,400
lines up there everywhere
because the how that whole the

571
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,080
politics with those big on all
companies works.

572
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,040
I assume that'd be the same with
the energy.

573
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,680
Well, actually I, I think that
they've, they've learned a bit

574
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,400
of a lesson on that because I
remember, I remember when there

575
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,480
was Rio and BHP and they had
their rail lines.

576
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:47,160
And of course Forrest wanted to
access those rail lines and he

577
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,400
took them to court and it went
for years.

578
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,200
And they were saying, well, you
know, it just dragged out.

579
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,760
But in the end, he built his own
and common rather than kind of

580
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,720
fighting for common user things.
I, I do think that there's a bit

581
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,320
more shared infrastructure on
and, and, and they kind of all

582
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,360
realise now that they've, they
kind of sinkhole swim together.

583
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,760
And you've got some quite a bit
of cooperation, not necessarily

584
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,320
with Fortescue, not necessarily
with Hancock, but like Rio and

585
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,720
BHP are doing kind of quite a
bit of stuff on green iron and

586
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,160
how to work together, you know,
pilot projects and things like

587
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,280
that.
So I don't think you're going to

588
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:27,080
find that because it's too hard.
And also it's just the the lack

589
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,400
of competition, Australia's lack
of competitiveness rather makes

590
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,600
that just kind of complicates
things further if if there's not

591
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,600
a degree of least of
cooperation.

592
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,160
Is how is old Twiggy going going
catching up with him?

593
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,080
No, I haven't caught up with him
on this trip.

594
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:43,840
Has he?
Has he eaten his humble pie on

595
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,760
the hydrogen yet?
I don't think you'd ever see a

596
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:48,760
meeting.
Humble pie.

597
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,200
No, I don't think so.
I think it's they've just all

598
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,880
recognised it's going to take a
lot longer than they thought and

599
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,440
that of course that's a very
optimistic.

600
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,320
Requires a much higher energy
price.

601
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,040
And so he's the one beneficiary
of a very high energy price.

602
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,880
Yes.
And maybe he, you know, maybe

603
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,640
he's import terminal, you know,
all that sort of stuff.

604
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,680
It's all kind of like, yeah, I
think it's, I think there's not

605
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:13,880
enough fingers pointing at him.
Fair, fair.

606
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,760
You know, the fact that that
he's a massive beneficiary of

607
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,480
the high energy price by by the
by.

608
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,200
All.
Yeah, Well, of course Squadron

609
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,680
Energy will say, you know he's
private owned.

610
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,280
Squadron Energy will say
actually that the LNG prices are

611
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,000
going to be coming down and
we'll be at least competitive

612
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,440
with domestic prices and they'll
be going up.

613
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,840
I have no idea as having looked
at energy over a period of a

614
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,400
decade or so now, the thing that
I have become aware of is no, I

615
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,480
don't care what expert
predictions you've got, they all

616
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:47,040
seem to be wrong.
And so you know, Yep, you can

617
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,320
make some kind of educated
guesses and but that's about as,

618
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,800
as far as you get.
Now, whether or not the LNG

619
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,920
terminal import is going to be a
viable proposition, I think it

620
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,480
probably will be only because
we've so screwed up our own

621
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:07,840
domestic gas supply.
I've, I've heard word on the

622
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,080
decline that Fortescue or
whether it's a subsidiary or

623
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,800
whatever, you know, I'm making
some sort of enquiries into

624
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,280
nuclear like because it makes
the most sense for him to save

625
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,280
the world via nuclear as well as
I just never talked about it.

626
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,720
Has there been any, you know,
rumours about that going around

627
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,160
of their stance towards it or is
it still firm?

628
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,680
No.
I I'm afraid I have not had any

629
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,120
conversations about that, so I
I'd.

630
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,040
Be breaking news.
Yeah, well, you know, you can

631
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,440
always have lots of abrupt
reversals in any sorts of energy

632
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,120
policy.
I mean, I've got nothing against

633
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,520
nuclear energy.
Whether or not it's ever going

634
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,160
to be viable in Australia, I
don't know.

635
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,000
But clearly it answers some of
the questions, which is what of

636
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,560
course the Coalition's going on
about.

637
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,280
It answers some of the questions
about being both, you know, low

638
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:09,640
emissions or zero emissions
virtually and and more more

639
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,600
reliable.
But you know, we we're talking

640
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:19,960
10/15/20 years out and I am not
sure that we really we will have

641
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,520
any idea of what the energy
market looks like at that stage.

642
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,240
So it's, and so I guess getting
back to that point is like this

643
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,120
next decade, you see is
extremely critical.

644
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,920
What is it's critical, but it's
kind of like going in the dark a

645
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,560
bit.
And Australia has managed, I do

646
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,720
think to stumble, you know, kind
of X.

647
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,720
It's been very lucky.
It's been it's, it's built, it's

648
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:48,000
much of its wealth not only on,
you know, things like iron ore

649
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,000
and coal, but also in just
having low cost energy.

650
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,560
And those days are kind of
ending.

651
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,680
And I don't think anybody's
really kind of quite registered

652
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,240
that.
So the idea, for example, that

653
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,240
you've got the government giving
subsidies to every household to

654
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,000
for their power bills and the
coalition not saying whether or

655
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,560
not they'd continue that it just
that's just indicative of a

656
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,480
really, really broken system.
And it's very, very different to

657
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,240
say like despite all the
problems with the US and mining

658
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,000
at at at least over there you've
got low energy costs do.

659
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,360
Do you think Canberra looks
enough at Germany, say on the

660
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,720
one hand and and the US on the
other hand and and lands from

661
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,480
no, you know, other countries,
No.

662
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,360
Answer no.
It's disappointing because it's

663
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,360
way cheaper to learn from other
people's mistakes than you like

664
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,760
them yourself.
Yeah, look, how real is it, the

665
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,160
energy, I guess crisis and
sensitivity over there because,

666
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,240
and I've listened to tune into
two GB every now and then just

667
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,600
to make me feel back in NSW and
you just hear about how the

668
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,680
light the, I think it's a, it
was one of the Hunter Valley

669
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,240
plants is on 99% load and like
it's literally Tay though as the

670
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,200
AGL plants are teetering on the
edge of tripping the whole

671
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,920
system out.
Like is it that runs a fine line

672
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,280
all the time?
Yeah, it runs.

673
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,800
Yeah, it runs a.
Fine line in summer I show all.

674
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,360
The time, yeah.
And also because there was no

675
00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:11,760
appreciation.
I didn't mean I think there was

676
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,639
in the industry, but I don't
think there was any political

677
00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:19,199
appreciation of how difficult
and protracted it would be to

678
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:21,719
get like all the transmission
lines in place.

679
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,440
The the days when you can kind
of just put all that, just

680
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,560
bulldoze through people's
property and that was OK.

681
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,400
It was fine and nobody could say
anything that that's that's

682
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,159
gone.
And now getting that kind of

683
00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:38,080
community support is very, very
difficult.

684
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,040
And I think we've really not, I
mean, I don't think any, the

685
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,159
governments have not under
appreciated that.

686
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,040
And so therefore, quite apart
from the normal problems with

687
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,000
construction costs and, and lack
of labour and all of those, you

688
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:55,679
know, which have only become
worse, there's just been zero

689
00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:59,000
understanding, which is only
just kind of that you actually

690
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:05,200
either have to convince people,
pay people, whatever to, to

691
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,600
allow access.
And, and they, and the

692
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,200
governments of course, haven't
really wanted to go to

693
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,320
compulsory acquisition because
that would make them even more

694
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,760
unpopular.
So that's a, that's a big issue.

695
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,720
And then, of course, you've got,
you know, other hopes like

696
00:35:18,240 --> 00:35:22,600
offshore wind power, which I
cannot, I just cannot understand

697
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,480
that there would ever be a
viable business case for that.

698
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,800
Sounds cool.
Sounds looks cool, yeah.

699
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,360
Just on hydrogen once more, I
think it came out in the in the

700
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,720
budget maybe six months ago or
so that there were further

701
00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:40,760
incentives, minerals processing
as as well as hydrogen.

702
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,800
What was the sort of perspective
you had on, on hydrogen?

703
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,920
I think we were sort of
scratching our head and thought

704
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,080
that hype behind that had, you
know, been put firmly behind us

705
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:56,080
in the 2020-2021 kind of period.
So I mean, I was a bit surprised

706
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,920
to see that I can't remember the
figure off the top of my head.

707
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,240
Maybe up to seven sort of
billion dollars in potential,

708
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,000
you know, tax credits and, and
the like for hydrogen projects.

709
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,400
Yeah, there were a few billion.
I can't remember exactly how

710
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,920
many billion, but yeah, that's
right.

711
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,480
Well, I do think they're trying
to, you know, place bets all

712
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:18,720
over the place.
And so hydrogen seemed like a

713
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:21,000
good idea.
And in the sense that it does

714
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:26,880
take people a while to catch up
with reality, the the hype kind

715
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,280
of carried at foot because it
then takes a while to translate

716
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,200
into political reality.
So.

717
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:32,680
Five years later.
Yeah, Yeah.

718
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,760
A few years later, they kind of
come up with this in the budget

719
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,320
and this will all be a kind of a
great thing.

720
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,760
And and I'm trying to remember
which budget it was, but maybe

721
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,840
it was 2, two years ago, 18
months ago.

722
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,880
Anyway, I don't need to, but it
takes for ages, you know, to

723
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,440
then come and again come into
place, cooled on it, then the

724
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,760
investment market cools on it.
Plus up at the time the actual

725
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,000
becomes actual policy.
Like, you've got that with the

726
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,480
production tax credits, you
know, for a lot of the critical

727
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,080
minerals stuff, you know, when
that was kind of being pushed,

728
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,440
that was that seemed like a
great idea.

729
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,680
Well, now nothing's really much
going on in that area, and maybe

730
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,440
it will again, but they're not
even going to come into effect

731
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:07,840
till 2027.
So.

732
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,680
Yeah.
You spend, you spend like a lot

733
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,480
of, a lot of time in the roles
that you've had, you know,

734
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,000
speaking with like very
important significant decision

735
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,840
makers, very like rich people,
politicians, blah, blah, the

736
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,640
whole works, right?
Yeah, like, yeah, like.

737
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,440
What are the major frustrations
you have kind of like glancing

738
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,240
across that scene, like if?
You're the major frustrations

739
00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:31,120
are I have or the major
frustrations you have.

740
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,760
I have, yes.
And you impart.

741
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:35,760
On the road What you mean
because I'm a because I'm a rich

742
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,320
person or because I'm a what
just.

743
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:42,640
No, just interacting with.
Well, I, I mean, basically, I, I

744
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,560
can see how many frustrations
there are in business.

745
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,160
And somebody said to me, we'll
remain unnamed, but, you know,

746
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,120
fairly significant minor, but we
have a lot of talk about, you

747
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,360
know, the care economy and, you
know, that's all wonderful and

748
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:01,560
how we need to spend more on
that.

749
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:06,600
There's absolutely nothing ever
said about productivity or how

750
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,000
to increase the wealth so that
we can pay for all these

751
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:11,600
services.
And look, that's beginning to

752
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,160
change a little bit.
I mean, but, but it's very slow.

753
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,960
So I guess that is my
frustration.

754
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,680
And I, I agree that in the end,
it's the private sector that's

755
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,320
got to drive things with, with
the kind of right, government

756
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,120
framework and policies.
But it's really only been like

757
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,400
almost in the last little tiny
while that even the treasurer,

758
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,720
Jim Chalmers has kind of
basically said, oh, it's yeah,

759
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:37,840
we've really got to do something
about the private sector and

760
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,400
encourage, you know, private
sector investment.

761
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,040
And we acknowledge that really
it's the private sector that

762
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:46,640
will drive the economy because
that has not been happening in

763
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,480
fact.
And so all the jobs that not all

764
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,560
the jobs that almost all the
jobs that have been created are

765
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:57,120
in government paid jobs, that's
where that's where all the focus

766
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:02,520
has been to kind of, I suppose,
compensate for people feeling

767
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,600
that they were not getting ahead
so they need more help with, you

768
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,040
know, there was well, at the end
of the Morrison government,

769
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,840
people were, you know, furious
that there, there were problems

770
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,840
with aged care, there were
problems with childcare,

771
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,160
problems with hospitals, things
like that.

772
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,680
Somebody goes, we just need to
put more money into it.

773
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,400
But there's been very little
focus on how you get to

774
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,520
Australia to be a more
productive economy, to pay for

775
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,280
all of that or any of it.
And and frankly, and the other

776
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,080
thing is, of course, the
industrial relations laws that

777
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:39,600
the government has put in were
really designed because Tony

778
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,720
Burke wanted basically wanted
the support of the unions.

779
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,960
But there's been no big picture
reform attempts and certainly no

780
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,560
real attempts on tax reform.
It's all considered too hard.

781
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,640
So everything's very
incremental.

782
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:59,080
What what do you think some of
the ways would be for the

783
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:03,720
economy to be more productive to
answer answer your frustration.

784
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,560
Well, I just.
Look straight down the camera

785
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:11,400
and tell them Jenny.
Well, I, I do think the fact

786
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:16,960
that Australia's tax system is
just completely hopeless and as

787
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,080
far too reliant, I think on
income tax and taxing, you know,

788
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,080
all of those, you know, middle
income workers and, and at the

789
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,080
same time you've got this ageing
population.

790
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,640
I think that is a huge problem
and nobody wants to take that

791
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,640
on.
I do think that's a big issue.

792
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,520
Similarly with industrial
relations.

793
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,360
I do, I think all of that has
been a problem and what we've

794
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:44,640
done is relied on immigration to
kind of paper a lot of that

795
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,520
over.
And I do think that there's

796
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,360
going to be a reckoning.
I mean Australia, I mean it's

797
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,560
cost, it's a fantastic country
to live in.

798
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,120
Look at WA, you know, it's
always fantastic to be here.

799
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,920
Everything looks really healthy.
What could go wrong?

800
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,040
Well, what could go wrong is
we're just kind of sliding,

801
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,560
sliding, sliding and I don't
think we encourage that.

802
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,360
But don't even get me started on
the education system.

803
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,320
So.
We can take.

804
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,600
This part to patch as well, like
the last call it like five

805
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,120
years.
The the the on oil prices being

806
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,880
called like one one 20s like on
average.

807
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,880
And and yet the Aussie dollar
stayed low and like you're

808
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,320
you're you're 70 cents 65.
So that's a that is a that that

809
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:27,960
is an absurd.
Normally they track together

810
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,800
right?
Like high commodities your your

811
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:31,960
Aussie dollar goes higher.
Coal price too.

812
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:32,800
Yeah.
So, yeah.

813
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,280
So the the the benefit from the
royalties of that to the to the

814
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,520
to the government is like what
like we are we used to that as

815
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,720
the new sweet spot like that.
That's been a purple patch.

816
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:45,600
That's an anomaly that shouldn't
That is not the norm.

817
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:47,960
Yes, but I think everybody does
think that's the norm.

818
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,840
And of course, let's not forget
that everybody outside WA, you

819
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,680
know, then gets very resentful
about the GST, you know, the

820
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,360
money that's going back to
Australia, to WA, which, yeah, I

821
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,240
know that you know, nobody,
nobody in West outside WA thinks

822
00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:06,160
that I of course being a good
WA, you know, defend, defend

823
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,000
this arrangement.
But most other people think

824
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,600
that's a very, very bad idea.
But I yeah, so I think our kind

825
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,600
of whole tax system is just
really skewed and and that has

826
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,400
not, that has not helped.
And at the same time, as I said,

827
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,880
where most of the jobs have been
been in the government sector

828
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:27,560
and the productivity in the
public sector has just hasn't

829
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,360
moved or has gone backwards for
decades.

830
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,640
Well.
There's been, I know.

831
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,520
It's hard to measure that, but
it's really gotten kind of much,

832
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,760
much worse.
Yeah, and there's been a sort

833
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,200
of, we'll show at least more
chatter about unionisation in,

834
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,960
in the Pilbara, kind of tying in
with the industrial relations,

835
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,240
industrial reforms policies.
Do you, do you think that goes

836
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:50,320
anywhere or do you think the,
you know the, I guess the

837
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,480
realisation that it's not bad,
we earn an awesome salary, those

838
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,800
sorts of things carry, carry
Australians sort of through.

839
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,160
Well, I think that's a big risk.
I do think that's a risk and

840
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:07,520
clearly it's going to be a lot
easier to, if not, not organise

841
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,880
a workforce, get access and then
have complaints because you

842
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,040
really only get, only need one
or two people and you'll be able

843
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,280
to, you know, enter the site and
you know, and demand to be part

844
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,120
of the bargaining arrangements
and things like that.

845
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,760
So I, I think that's a clear
risk, but I, I also think the

846
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:29,240
companies are very aware of that
as well and they're trying to

847
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,120
kind of board that off as much
as possible.

848
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:37,440
So if to the extent that it is a
problem, it'll take, this is the

849
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,520
beginning, but it it'll take
some while before you see that

850
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:42,200
particularly evident I think in
the Pilbara.

851
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,160
But for example in the coal
industry in NSW and to

852
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,640
Queensland, it's much bigger.
And the the tunnels and

853
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,920
everything in Sydney, like
Snowy, Audro, they're all

854
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,600
unionised.
It's just I've never worked with

855
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,840
one so I can't.
I'll probably give a bit of a

856
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,200
blase view, but it's just gives
people the reason not to work.

857
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,000
Light unions.
Well, BHB, you have the

858
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,480
experience in in Chile as well,
where operations stop, Yeah,

859
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,400
they stop.
And I mean, they've got.

860
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,160
They've always had coal and
they've got the coal experience

861
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:10,920
in, yeah.
They've got 130 years of

862
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,120
fighting unions, so yes.
But also the, the construction

863
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,680
industry in particular, I think
has been a particularly bad

864
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,200
example of what can go wrong.
And, and, and in a sense,

865
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,160
whether you've had all the, you
know, the LNG plants in WA or

866
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,040
they've, they've been able to
get away with it because the

867
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,280
conditions have been OK most of
the time.

868
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:38,680
You know, but it's really
impossible I think to these days

869
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,560
to, to have a hope of being
competitive when you've got that

870
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,960
type of level of activity.
It's the like the tunnels and

871
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,640
stuff in Sydney like snowy hydro
and Snowy hydro.

872
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,400
Is it like, does it, does it
boost the economy a bit like

873
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,080
those infrastructure projects in
Sydney or is it Sydney that big?

874
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:55,920
It's not even that noticeable.
Oh no, no, it's the.

875
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,640
Closest thing to no.
Of course, no, no.

876
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:00,840
Well, of course it, it means
that there's a lot of money kind

877
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,840
of pumping through the economy.
There is, that is, you know,

878
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,240
true.
So it does boost it in that way,

879
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:12,280
but it but it also means that
there's a lot of debt building

880
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,720
up as well and money's not going
to other parts of the economy.

881
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,320
Yeah, education system, the
University of Wollongong

882
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,120
shutting down the mining school.
Did you say that?

883
00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:25,800
No, I did not say.
That, that was the, the big

884
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,560
uproar.
So now there's, I don't know if

885
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:32,760
you're referring to more child
or tertiary or both, but there's

886
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:37,080
now only going to be, unless it
gets reversed, 1 mining school

887
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,720
on the eastern seaboard of
Australia because you could have

888
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:41,440
been shut down.
I don't think University of

889
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,720
Sydney got one, just the one in
UNSW.

890
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,280
You got the Ballarat one in
Melbourne, which is more

891
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,520
diplomas, but yeah.
But I think that is like that is

892
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,600
an issue that, well, mining has
a problem in like an image

893
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,760
problem, you know, around the
world, I guess.

894
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,680
But in a, in a country like
Australia, I think it's

895
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,920
particularly pronounced.
And to your point, I think in WA

896
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,880
it's a little different because
people do understand.

897
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,760
I remember Colin Barnett always
used to say to me, every

898
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,960
family's always got some
connection to the resources

899
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,840
industry in WA.
And you'll notice that when you

900
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,800
go to the airport or when I
moved over, I'm like far out,

901
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:19,200
there's some hive is floating
around.

902
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,440
Yeah, the whole.
Airport is covered in and it was

903
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,520
just and coming from eastern
states it's like you'd never

904
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:25,520
seen it.
Yes.

905
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,440
And so I think that there's this
kind of disconnect between

906
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,160
people's understanding of where
Australia's wealth comes from.

907
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,560
And I mean, obviously there's
agriculture as well.

908
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,840
And but, and also, but this idea
that it's somehow just magically

909
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,800
produced, you know, in financial
circles in, in Sydney and

910
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,000
Melbourne, which of course it's
not.

911
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:47,280
You had this cracking line I'll
have to read out in in one of

912
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:48,400
your articles a couple months
ago.

913
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,280
W Australians are hardwired to
believe their massive

914
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,760
contribution to the national
economy is not properly

915
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:55,400
recognised in the eastern
states.

916
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,720
I love that.
And yeah, I mean, I think it, I

917
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:00,080
think it really hits home.
It's true.

918
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:03,880
I don't think I'll find any W
Australian or disagree.

919
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,600
Bring on the secession.
What about big Trumpy?

920
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,400
Big Trump's back in power?
You've written plenty and you

921
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,440
write plenty about himself and
Kamala in the load up.

922
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,000
Just go over the whole thing.
He's he's not wasting.

923
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,240
Australia get stuck in the in
the crosshairs I think is an

924
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,160
interesting perspective on on
the trade wars with with.

925
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:30,000
Yeah, well, I think it's very
possible it it could.

926
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,240
But when I said that you
couldn't predict what was going

927
00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:35,680
to happen in the energy market,
well, it's even harder to

928
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:40,120
predict it was going to happen
in the in the Trump presidency.

929
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,920
And I'm, I'm really struck by
the fact that, you know, markets

930
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,840
in general are pretty sanguine
about the, what's going to

931
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,080
happen if the, you know, what
the, the impact of a trade war

932
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:55,880
between, you know, China and,
and the US and, you know, much

933
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:57,480
higher tariffs and things like
that.

934
00:47:58,720 --> 00:48:02,200
I don't know, I don't think
anybody really knows how that's

935
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,080
going to play out.
I mean, it was fairly shocking,

936
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,640
I think to both Canada and
Mexico when Trump, when Trump,

937
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,120
you know, exactly when Trump,
you know, before he even takes

938
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,840
power on June 20 announced, I
think it was 25% tariffs on

939
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,320
everything coming from Canada
and Mexico.

940
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,640
Now you don't know whether he's
actually going to proceed with

941
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,960
that or whether he's going to
say, yeah, well, if you stop,

942
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:28,880
you know, everybody coming at
the border or if you stop, you

943
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,160
know, import of drugs or
something, then we'll we'll

944
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:33,040
talk.
You know, it won't, it won't

945
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,160
happen.
It's like it's really difficult

946
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,880
to say.
But he's got, of course, a

947
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,480
Republican Congress now, which,
you know, in both the Senate and

948
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,720
the House.
So that really helps.

949
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:49,040
But with tariffs, he didn't
really need that anyway because

950
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,400
you can do a lot just through
executive orders and making

951
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,840
rules.
So but what you do know about

952
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:00,520
Trump is that, you know, he's
promised everybody that prices

953
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:06,080
will go down.
If they start going up, he's

954
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,520
he's going to lose a lot of skin
quite quickly.

955
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:15,960
So I think that that's why I
assume many people in the market

956
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,520
think, Oh, well, it won't be as
bad as is predicted.

957
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,960
Because even though he's
promising radical change and

958
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:27,760
much more manufacturing in the
US, he's not going to wait for

959
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,080
prices to really become, you
know, inflation in that sense to

960
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,160
really become a big problem for
him politically.

961
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,240
Now, how, how you can calibrate
all that and manage it, you

962
00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:39,680
know, I don't.
I've no idea.

963
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,040
And I'm not sure he does either.
He must be, he must really want

964
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:44,920
to cause what do you say?
He wants to get the income tax

965
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,800
rate down to 1315% or 13.
Well, I think he what?

966
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:50,080
I think he.
Wants they have federal and

967
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:52,720
state, yeah.
But he's and he's but he also

968
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,480
wants the the business.
He'll certainly cut corporate

969
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,760
tax rate quite, quite a lot.
I think that was the, it was the

970
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,640
corporate one.
Yeah, yeah, 'cause he might if,

971
00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:04,280
if he's going to put tariffs on
everything but get prices down,

972
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,320
it has to come from tax, you
would think.

973
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,200
Yeah.
And of course, nobody in the US,

974
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,280
whether that used to be the
Republicans, you know, really

975
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,840
cared about debt, Well, nobody
does, and the Republicans will

976
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:17,240
have.
To pay a bit off of your

977
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:18,280
reckons.
Yeah.

978
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,360
So that's a kind.
Of line can fix that one, yeah.

979
00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:22,920
Yeah, well, it's all about Oh
no, well, the economic growth

980
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:24,960
will just, you know, magically
take care of all this, so it

981
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:25,720
won't be an issue.
I.

982
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:27,200
Run away from it.
Yeah.

983
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,480
Yeah.
Well, and so is the what's the

984
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,480
view out there with I was just
sort of JD was saying about the

985
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,160
effect on Australia if, if the
tariffs are being imposed on

986
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,480
China, is it going to maybe
promote less growth in China,

987
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,480
which is going to pretty much
impact all everything we export

988
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,520
to China and the amount of it?
Well, it it could.

989
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,840
I mean, what's interesting is
that the Chinese government just

990
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,800
in the last week or so has said
much more about, you know,

991
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,680
they're prepared to have a much
looser monetary policy and much

992
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,640
kind of greater physical
stimulus.

993
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:03,320
But they've hold held out
entirely on saying what that is.

994
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,440
And I think they're just waiting
to see how the Trump

995
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:11,960
administration policies affect
them, what they're.

996
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,480
But clearly, I mean, the Chinese
economy's obviously been a lot

997
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:21,280
weaker and the consumer demand
has been weaker than the

998
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,760
government might have hoped.
They've been managing to get

999
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,120
away with that, but they won't
want it to get much worse.

1000
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,800
And so therefore I think they
will unleash a stimulus.

1001
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,880
So in that sense, yes, Australia
would be caught.

1002
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,680
And clearly, you know, as a
major expert, if there's a trade

1003
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,120
war going on where which has a
problem for the global economy,

1004
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:45,560
then that is difficult for
Australia and naturally be kind

1005
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,720
of caught by that.
But, but I think it's also true

1006
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:55,280
that China is well prepared to
to act to kind of try and

1007
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,720
stimulate its economy.
But whether or not that's more

1008
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:01,120
through kind of consumer demand
than anything, I don't, I don't

1009
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:06,320
know.
But it's just going to be a very

1010
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:12,840
tense year or two, I'd say.
And military's the interesting

1011
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,000
one, I've seen that, or is it
the Federal Government's putting

1012
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,280
$600 million in to get a rugby
league team in PNG, which is

1013
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,800
pretty much a lot of money.
They're playing to get a big

1014
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:24,880
defence base over there.
Yes.

1015
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,640
Effectively, yes, which is all
related to, you know, China,

1016
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:29,840
Taiwan.
Well, that's right.

1017
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:34,000
But of course, The thing is it's
very hard to out compete China

1018
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,480
with money.
So therefore you have to kind of

1019
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:43,200
try and compete it out compete
in other ways and, you know,

1020
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,680
including, you know, cultural
ties and, you know, job offers

1021
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,880
and things like that.
And there's no doubt that the

1022
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:56,080
Australian government was left
completely unaware and napping

1023
00:52:56,200 --> 00:53:00,800
when the Solomon Islands signed
the, I think, treaty or a pact

1024
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,960
or a security pact with China.
So they're determined and of

1025
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,000
course the Americans are
particularly determined that

1026
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:09,280
that not happen again.
So I think you'll see kind of

1027
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,240
quite a lot of bit more of this
emphasis.

1028
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,440
But there's no doubt that
China's, you know, behaving kind

1029
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,480
of much more, it's much more
active, is becoming more

1030
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,440
aggressive.
I mean, I, I saw somebody from

1031
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,400
the Philippines the other days
in charge of the Navy in the

1032
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,480
Philippines.
And, and when you can see what

1033
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,000
China's doing there against the
Philippines, the Philippines

1034
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,320
have been cautious in how they
respond.

1035
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:36,080
Again, they're waiting to see
what the Trump administration

1036
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:40,520
policies are going to be.
Is it Australia going to be good

1037
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,640
buddies with Trump?
Do you think if they're if we're

1038
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,200
going to D China, America's
going to fill the void for

1039
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,440
Australia or not?
Well, I can't.

1040
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,560
I mean in a sense.
It's a long why?

1041
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,880
Why?
Well, no, I I don't think

1042
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,840
there's any doubt that there's
there'll be a very strong

1043
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:01,040
alliance remaining with the USI
don't think that's going to

1044
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,040
change.
I do think some of Trump's

1045
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:08,360
policies, well, as you know,
there's already a large section

1046
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:12,880
of the Labour left that doesn't
like orcas and the submarines

1047
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,880
and thinks that all of that's a
bad idea quite apart from the

1048
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,880
practical problems.
But so I think that will

1049
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:21,720
strengthen that.
But I don't think there's any

1050
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:25,880
doubt that Australia will, you
know, will still be heavily

1051
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,920
reliant on the US for defence
purposes, not least because we

1052
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,760
don't spend, we don't, we don't
spend anything ourselves.

1053
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,280
We're actually going to be more
integrated than ever with the

1054
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,440
US, and the submarines are just
one small part of that.

1055
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,120
Yeah.
You've also got the away from

1056
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,080
military, the Inflation
Reduction Act, which we were

1057
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,560
talking about nonstop last year,
but it's gone quite quiet on

1058
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,600
that front.
Do you have a view on whether

1059
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,600
Trump strips that right back, or
whether there's actually any

1060
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,400
material benefits for more than
a couple Aussie companies to be

1061
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,400
had on that front?
That's right, because it's not

1062
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,720
as if there's been a lot of
American investment or European

1063
00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:06,200
investment or anything kind of
like to take the place of China,

1064
00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:08,400
which is one of, you know, the
issues.

1065
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,320
It's all very well for them to
say we want all these

1066
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:12,360
alternative supply chains.
Well, where's the money?

1067
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,560
But in terms of the Inflation
Reduction Act, again, who would

1068
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,160
know?
But one of the things that I

1069
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:24,920
think they'll be obviously more
of a or of an emphasis on oil

1070
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,480
and gas, but but even under the
Biden administration, like

1071
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,640
American oil production and gas
production, which is its highest

1072
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,720
level ever.
So there's there's a kind of

1073
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:37,560
quite a lot of hot air really
talked about all this.

1074
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:40,960
And the other issue with the
Inflation Reduction Act is that

1075
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,880
it was basically a lot of
government money going out to a

1076
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:45,840
lot of different projects,
including manufacturing

1077
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,880
projects, including in in
heavily Republican states.

1078
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,880
So it would not be likely.
I don't think that either

1079
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,040
Congress or Trump would be
particularly interested in

1080
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,680
pulling those types of projects.
Now, maybe there'll be some, you

1081
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,240
know, marginal wind project or
something like that in, you

1082
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,600
know, California that wouldn't
get support in the same way that

1083
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:11,600
might have.
But all these things are very,

1084
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:16,320
very difficult to untangle.
Is there is, do they go, does

1085
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:20,080
the tariffs and the inflation
reduction that go hand in hand

1086
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:21,720
at all?
Like if he's going to up the

1087
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:24,960
tariffs, is that going to make
it more, give people more

1088
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:29,120
incentive to build and purchase
in America and they don't need

1089
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,560
the IRA as much?
Oh, well, I'm, I'm sure that

1090
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:33,720
well, as we know everybody
always likes government money

1091
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:36,360
and once it's kind of given it's
very hard to not or tax

1092
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,440
incentives and things.
But I, well, it kind of goes

1093
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,120
hand in hand.
But with the idea of restoring a

1094
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:46,280
lot of American manufacturing
for the reasons we've talked

1095
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,840
about, America has more prospect
of doing that than Australia

1096
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,280
does, in part because of its
lower energy costs and lower

1097
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:56,240
costs and greater efficiency
overall.

1098
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,120
But it doesn't seem also
realistic that you're going to

1099
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:04,440
be able to replace, you know, a
lot of low cost Chinese goods

1100
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,960
with.
No need another communist

1101
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,760
country.
Yeah, you can't get as cheap as

1102
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:12,480
them.
Yeah, I think that's the the

1103
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,680
interesting angle on the on the
trade wars.

1104
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,880
It's not just one and two things
move.

1105
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:20,040
You know, you take the iPhone
factory out of China, it goes

1106
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:21,880
to.
Vietnam.

1107
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:23,040
Yeah, exactly.
And that's what's been

1108
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,560
happening.
So it depends how, how strict

1109
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,840
they want to be about
interpreting all of that.

1110
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,640
And I don't think there
obviously be some people who

1111
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,480
would.
And, and Trump has been

1112
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:36,440
consistent.
One thing he has been consistent

1113
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,680
about is, you know, a belief in
terrorists for decades.

1114
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:43,800
But I'm not sure that many
people would say they'll

1115
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,280
definitely be, you know, they'll
say whatever comes from Vietnam

1116
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,200
has got made any Chinese parts.
Unless it's sensitive, we won't

1117
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,880
be able to import any of that
because I think the impact on

1118
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:55,160
the American economy and prices
would be a bit too much.

1119
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,440
Vietnam.
Vietnam's cheaper than China,

1120
00:57:58,440 --> 00:57:59,600
isn't it?
It's low cost like.

1121
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,600
That's one of the one of the
reasons that a lot of it.

1122
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:05,040
Was moving anyway this country,
That's another topic.

1123
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:07,240
Oh, that'll be the next.
That'll be 30 years down the

1124
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:08,240
road.
They'll be like, Nah, we've got

1125
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,960
AD Vietnam.
Bloody good soup, but I love the

1126
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:13,160
soup.
Well, get the get the crystal

1127
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:14,880
ball out, Jenny, for the next
decade.

1128
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:17,520
You said this is a critical
decade coming up with energy and

1129
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:19,040
and just just a bit of
everything.

1130
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:20,600
What do you think's going to
play out?

1131
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,760
Well, I think federal.
Election's probably the first

1132
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:25,400
place.
Federal election.

1133
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,200
Because we're going to use this
against you in future if you get

1134
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:29,520
it all wrong.
Just letting you know.

1135
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:32,960
Which is why I'm going to sound
extremely cautious in what I

1136
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,520
say.
But at the moment, obviously, it

1137
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:42,960
looks most likely that that the
Labor Party will not be able to

1138
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:47,600
form majority government.
But the question is, you know,

1139
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,600
how close they can get for the
Liberals to pick up, say

1140
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:54,240
something like 20 seats.
That doesn't seem particularly

1141
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:58,120
feasible unless there's an
absolute, you know, revulsion

1142
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,160
against them.
But I don't think that's going

1143
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,520
to be they're going to be
enough.

1144
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,920
But I think we're going to
actually have a bit of, I'm

1145
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,560
sorry to sound so negative at
Christmas, but a bit of

1146
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:13,800
paralysis because you've either
going to have the Labor Party

1147
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:17,480
met in a much weakened position
or I think less, far less

1148
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,880
likely, but possible.
You had a you had a Coalition

1149
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:21,800
government.
Well, guess what?

1150
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:23,560
They're just going to be stymied
in the Senate.

1151
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:27,120
I do, I do think this kind of
paralysis, yeah.

1152
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,040
But paralysis in Australian
politics has been, it's a really

1153
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,200
big issue.
And I do think the Senate is a,

1154
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,880
you know, it's just, you know,
where where policies go to die.

1155
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:40,080
Now that can be good if they're
bad policies, but not good if

1156
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:41,960
they're good policies.
And it certainly doesn't

1157
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:47,920
encourage the type of, you know,
restructuring or kind of quite

1158
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:53,200
hard policy choices that I think
would be needed to kind of

1159
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,920
change the kind of meandering
direction of the Australian

1160
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,040
economy at the moment.
Is that and is one of those

1161
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,520
around like tax legislation?
Is that one of the big ones?

1162
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:02,960
That would be a huge one.
That should be.

1163
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,000
That's Jenny's big ticket item I
can sense.

1164
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:09,000
Yeah.
And so then, of course, then the

1165
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,840
other issue is, and everybody
hopes that this is not the case

1166
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,760
and, and presumably it'll be all
right.

1167
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:21,200
But I mean, it is not incorrect
to say that the world looks just

1168
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:25,960
a lot more dangerous than it
did, you know, 10 years ago,

1169
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,880
five years ago.
And it is.

1170
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,360
And I'm not who, you know,
there'll be a Black Swan event.

1171
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,160
Nobody knows exactly where it'll
come from.

1172
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,960
Yeah, I think Taiwan's probably
the top of the probability, so

1173
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,360
I'd say.
Well, yeah, I guess it is and

1174
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,320
we'll just see how that works.
But I mean, what the Biden

1175
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,440
administration was always doing,
not not necessarily always

1176
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:52,840
effectively, but it was building
up a lot more alliances.

1177
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,880
You know, in the in the region
that's they they put a lot of

1178
01:00:55,880 --> 01:01:00,280
focus on that with, you know,
Japan, India, whether whether

1179
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:04,280
they called it the lettuce work,
I think of alliances, which is a

1180
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,200
kind of fancy name.
But whether or not that will

1181
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,640
continue, how much more
dramatic, I don't know.

1182
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:18,160
But I do think that it's going
to be a very well interesting in

1183
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,880
in not necessarily the good
sense of the word period over

1184
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:25,040
the next few years.
And my issue, I guess in terms

1185
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:32,160
of Australian concerns is that
the politics of that the, the

1186
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:35,400
governments and public
understanding of that is not

1187
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:40,600
really there.
And and so nobody wants to talk

1188
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,600
about other than the fact we're
going to kind of discontinue

1189
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:44,720
what we're doing really.
There you are.

1190
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:46,360
So you're not held to much
there?

1191
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:52,160
No, there's no specific thing.
So you think your first rodeo,

1192
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,120
Jenny.
Beautiful sports.

1193
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:57,160
I'm all out, thanks a lot for
making the time.

1194
01:01:57,640 --> 01:01:59,680
It tastes better.
I've much more intelligent

1195
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,240
conversations with you when I've
got other people with me to.

1196
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:03,680
Assist.
Now I wonder why that is.

1197
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:08,400
Thanks very much Ian, Merry
Christmas to yourself and you

1198
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,160
may not be the last AFR person
that comes on before the end of

1199
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:13,200
the year.
Got to get the two gingers on.

1200
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:15,240
Yes, good.
So fantastic.

1201
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:16,360
Yes.
Thanks a lot.

1202
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:17,720
Thank you very much.
Pleasure to be here.

1203
01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,040
Yeah, beauty.
That was bloody sensational.

1204
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,840
Thanks to the I don't even know
if the AFR knew she was coming

1205
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,320
on but she got clearance.
Say no now, but when you're a

1206
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,840
big deal like ready to do it,
you just do whatever the fuck

1207
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:32,880
you want.
That's all good.

1208
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:35,200
That's all I.
Hope to be at that stage one day

1209
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:37,120
in life.
We do have a couple of people to

1210
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,280
thank though.
But these people do what you

1211
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:42,880
want, that's they are a service
provider.

1212
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:46,720
Mineral Mining services.
Grounded Grounded Zambic ground

1213
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:48,200
support.
CRA Insurance.

1214
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:52,800
Carrie Drill.
ASAT salt Bush contracting and

1215
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,680
get wet solutions.
Mate, I've gotta wait and get

1216
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:59,800
wet at Christmas.
Information contained in this

1217
01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:02,520
episode of Money of Mine is of
general nature only and does not

1218
01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:05,160
take into account the
objectives, financial situation

1219
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:07,280
or needs of any particular
person.

1220
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,560
Before making any investment
decision, you should consult

1221
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,640
with your financial advisor and
consider how appropriate the

1222
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:17,320
advice is to your objectives,
financial situation and needs.