An Unfiltered Chat with Wyloo (Luca Giacovazzi + Joel Turco)

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I think nickel's a tough space.
Not in business to wash our

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face.
While they're sitting on like

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$500 billion of unrealised
profit right now in Bradman's

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Stuff You.
Said billion.

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Higher a lot than.
That is that a bit more than.

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That bit more than that.
We've done a bidding goal, yeah.

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You've got to remember we we
tried the RAID on.

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I think we just, I think about
this.

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All the time.
I think about it a lot as well.

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We look at that share price as
well you.

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Guys are ready to go in
perspective.

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Yeah, it's a very philosophical,
but we're just going to put back

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right then.
While we're meant to be a minor

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or a strategic investor
environment, while the IPO

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inevitable the most underrated
place to be allocated capital

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right now.
I actually really resent being

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associated with the term.
Premiums today we've got 2

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returning guests joining us.
Look at you, Kibati and Joel

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Turko.
WAILU Metals, just in case you

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live under a rock or maybe
outside of Australia and you

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don't know who WAILU is.
This is the private mining

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investment arm for Andrew and
Nicola Forest.

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So you don't know who these
people are.

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You're probably listening to the
wrong podcast.

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Now last time Luca and Joel
joined us, it was mid 2023.

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It was shortly after they
wrapped up the deal to buy 100%

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of mincore.
Since then, the nickel market

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has changed a lot.
The project was put on care and

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maintenance, and we address the
decision to buy it and

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everything about that process in
a really, really candid way

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while we stayed busy.
Since very recently, they've had

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an enormous win with their
strategic stake in Great Land

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Gold Plus they carved out a tidy
outcome from the wreckage of

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rare earth developer Hastings.
And we unpacked the lessons from

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each the good, the hard, the
serendipitous.

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We talk market cycles, deal
structuring and how, while the

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positions himself as both an
operator and an investor in this

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volatile sector.
Yeah, there was, there was heaps

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of candor in this conversation.
They reflect on some timing

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stakes.
They, they also reflect on

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doubling down on, on, you know,
names in which they have high

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conviction and also what, what
it sort of means to, to juggle

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both the, the nature of being a
miner mining company as well as

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investing in these mining
businesses.

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This is this is one of my
favorite conversations that

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we've we've had all year, JD.
Let's get into it.

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Luka Gikavazzi, Joel Turko,
welcome back to Money Mine

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Podcast.
Thanks for having us guys.

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Good to be back.
Yeah, good to see you guys.

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It's been an highly eventful
past couple years since we spoke

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with you guys mid 2023, so we've
got a lot to unpack.

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Two years, yeah.
Two years, yeah.

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It doesn't feel like it was that
long ago.

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How do you reflect on those last
two years?

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How do we look?
Yeah, 2 years old.

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I'm biting the the hair that's
fallen out.

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Yeah.
That's that's why you've come in

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with these iron Williams like
hats, which is the most

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expensive merch we've ever been
brought by a mile.

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But but yeah, it's wicked.
But it's been it's been an event

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for two years for for you guys.
It's, it's kind of, it's kind

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of, it's funny looking back like
2 years ago, like when we, when

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we had that first conversation
and the world looked a lot

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different as well.
It was, you know, nickel, the

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signs were there, but they
weren't quite there.

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That of what was like, what was
really playing out over the,

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the, the, the full course of the
Indonesian supplier that's come.

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Have you guys just reflected on
the change in the nickel market,

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not just the last two years, but
maybe the last, you know, 3 or

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4?
Yeah.

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I think nickel's a tough space.
And the reason it's tough is

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it's a very flat cost curve.
So and the sometimes the problem

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with nickel is that it kind of
sits on that cost curve for a

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really long period of time.
And that's kind of what we've

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seen I think over the last last
couple of months.

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And I think you're right, when
we did the acquisition of Minkle

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at the time we had seen the
nickel price come off a fair bit

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and we thought, OK, are we
starting to hit that kind of

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flat part of the cost curve and
it's going to sit there and it

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just kept going.
So from that perspective,

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obviously wasn't great, wasn't
great for us, felt like we were

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catching a falling off at the
time.

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And I think Fast forward now, I
mean he's still seeing a lot of,

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you know, I just, there's just
no supply discipline in the

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space.
You've got, you know, capital to

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happy to happy to keep building
out capacity even though the

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price is really weak.
Starting to see signs of that

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disappearing now, which is good.
But then you've got a backdrop

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of, you know, EV sales on the
decline.

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Yeah.
So I think couple of headwinds

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there, but starting to see some
shoots that things are starting

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to turn around a little bit.
And I think unfortunately,

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sectors, you know, some miners
need to feel pain before they

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start to become rational.
And I think you're starting to

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see that a little bit coming
through in Indonesia.

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Yeah, no, certainly a challenge.
It's been a challenging, you

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know, two years with regards to
nickel.

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There's there's no way around
it.

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I think that, you know, the
challenge that we had is we took

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ownership of the business.
We thought that we'd we'd

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bought.
Well, the price kept dropping.

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You know, post acquisition, we
were adopting a very lean

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approach to our operations.
We were ripping costs out of the

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business and, and just to play,
just to play catch up, you know,

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the process falling as we're
taking costs out of the

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business.
At the same time, we then got to

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a point where we're actually at
a very low cost base for our

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operations to the point where we
were washing our face even at a

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depressed nickel price.
But we're not in business to

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wash our face.
So sort of wisely made the

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decision to, it's a very
difficult decision obviously to

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put the minds on care and
maintenance.

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You know, looking back on it,
what would I do differently?

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I actually think we executed the
deal really well.

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I think it was like a well
execute a deal strategy would

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have waited six months then and
then, you know, I think we'd be

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looking at it very differently
now.

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Always looks easier in
hindsight.

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Always looks easier in hindsight
of course, of course you know I

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we still think that Campbell has
got a really bright future as

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far as nickel's concerned.
The nickel market is is a

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challenging one.
We are starting to see in

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Indonesia some of the, what I
think will will go on to become

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kind of cost pressures that'll
that'll sort of eventually start

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to creep in.
We're seeing some of the

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subsidies and government support
falling away.

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We're seeing royalties increase.
You know, naturally when you're

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mining in an area, you start at
the best spots for the best

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access to infrastructure and
energy and highest grades and

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mining nickel ladder arts,
you're mining outward.

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So you're, I think over time
we'll start to see those, those

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costs tick up, which will have a
resultant impact on the, on the

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nickel price.
But we're still, we're still

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very optimistic about the future
of Cam Belder.

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It's not easy, but you know,
we're, we're, we're, we're in

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with both feet.
We're committed and, and, and

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actually having some exciting,
doing some exciting work at the

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moment in the last 12 months or
so.

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When when you bought pink or no
one was in care and maintenance.

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Yeah, and now now everything in
care and maintenance.

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Like maybe some people saw the
the nickel supply thing coming,

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but the extent that it kind of
just gutted out an entire yeah.

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It's not as many people who said
that they saw it coming, yeah.

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But yeah, always the way, yeah.
I think, I think if there's any

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kind of learning from that
experience for me is it's just

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really hard to predict how a
market will react.

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A market can be oversupplied by
millions of tons and not react

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as strongly as with the nickel
market reactor.

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It can be oversupplied by a
handful of tons and react

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really, you know, respond in a
really sharp way.

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So I think it's difficult.
And you know, I think in mining

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you're always trying to time the
cycle and sometimes you get it

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really right, sometimes you
don't.

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I mean, investments in gold have
obviously gone really well.

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I don't think we can pat
ourselves on the back and say,

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you know, we saw Donald Trump
winning the election and wars in

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the Middle East and etcetera,
etcetera.

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You can have a view on these
things, but I don't think you

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can never quite get them 100%
right.

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And I think you're just trying
to get as close to the top and

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the bottom as you can when
you're making these decisions.

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But I think for me, that's the
the biggest learning.

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It's you know, you, you, I think
you've got to you've got to wait

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to see how kind of prices
respond a bit more.

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I think we were just a little
bit too premature.

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Like we knew there was some
price pressure coming in nickel

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and we thought, OK, well, this
is our moment to to acquire this

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whole asset and maybe we should
have waited a bit longer just to

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see the full extent of, you
know, that impact.

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Has your thinking on how China
dominates commodity markets

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changed at all?
I think if, if we would ask that

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question two years ago, like the
influence of China couldn't have

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been any greater.
But if we look across, you know,

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we'll speak about rare earths
later.

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Nickel, lithium, has that
changed at all?

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Look, I think it's again like in
nickel, the other problem you

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have is it's, it's so opaque
what's going on in Indonesia.

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You just, you don't really know.
And you can, you know, you can

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read the best research, you can
go over there yourself and, and

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try and have a look.
But you know, I think we

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underestimated how much supply
was coming online.

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And I think that's the risk you
run with kind of Chinese

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involvement in commodity
markets.

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You don't really have
transparency to be able to make

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a judgement call.
I mean, I always look back on it

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and I go when we did mink or you
know, our model, we had, you

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know, we can nickel numbers than
what every broker was putting

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out and we were all wrong and
way lower than what everyone

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thought.
So I think that's my take away

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from, you know, Chinese
involvement in in any kind of

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commodity market.
You know, I think, you know, you

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guys saw the quote from Gary
Nagle saying, you know, Glenn

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Call will stay away from
commodities where there's too

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much Chinese control.
I think that's also a bit of a

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fallacy because ultimately China
has, you know, involvement in

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almost every commodity in some
shape or form.

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So I think it's hard.
It makes decision making hard.

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But I think for us, you know,
we're really focused on actually

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owning these metal units.
I think we sometimes lose sight

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of that.
Like you actually have the

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physical asset and over time
commodities are going to go

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through ups and downs and at
certain points in the cycle,

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you're going to do really well.
Certain points in the cycle,

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you're just going to have to
wear a bit of paint.

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One observation I have with you
guys over Yeah, the the the

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duration with on you is even
when the sock was not going your

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way, you're always trying to
find angles or ways to create

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like, you know, realize option
value that might be latent amid

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a bad, bad decision or a bad
hand.

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Have you been doing that lately?
Yeah.

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Yeah, Yeah.
I mean, you mentioned earlier

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like obviously the whole, the
whole sector's challenged and,

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and you know that, that that is
not great for the nickel sector,

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but it also does provide
opportunity.

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So we're always looking at ways
to, to, to, to grow, to grow our

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resource base, be that
organically or inorganically.

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So, you know, it doesn't have to
be ownership all the time.

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It can be partnerships.
Like we've shown an ability to

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be pretty agile across different
deal structures.

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Not everything has to be
acquisition, although I know you

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love a hostile deal, Trav, but I
think we've provided enough

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photo for this podcast in that
regard.

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You know, we're also, you know,
we can do friendly agreements.

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00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,680
We can be a shareholder, we can
be an owner, we can be a joint

225
00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:36,200
venture partner.
So looking and, and at all times

226
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,000
testing different different
options, you know, obviously

227
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,720
access to processing
infrastructure for nickel is a

228
00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,680
challenging 1.
So we are, have been for the

229
00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:50,800
last couple of years ways we can
best, you know, either build

230
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,960
something new or, or use what
already exists in the area or

231
00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,400
can you retrofit something.
So yeah, we're kind of we've,

232
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,200
we've got financial model with
about 25 different permutations

233
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,040
of different production bases,
different processing pathways,

234
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,760
different paths to market.
And then, you know, we never sit

235
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,600
still for long and, and the, you
know, we're, we're trying to

236
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,240
keep the rigs turning as much as
we can and growing our resource

237
00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,240
base organically as well.
So I, I think that what we, what

238
00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,040
we know is that, yeah, there's
definitely a operating cost

239
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,520
challenge in Australian nickel.
The bigger you are, the easier

240
00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,800
that is to overcome.
The higher the quality of the

241
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,640
of, of, of your body in size and
grade, the easier that is to

242
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,840
overcome.
So I think that that will be the

243
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,680
pathway out of this.
I don't think there's any like,

244
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,840
secret sauce you know of.
Space rules the day.

245
00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:51,600
When I think about nickel over
the past few years, there's

246
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,080
actually two factors.
There's the Indonesia

247
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,840
implications and there's also
the the battery side of it and

248
00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,760
the the world moving much more
towards LFP than and I certainly

249
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,960
had suspected as that sort of
playing into into the models.

250
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,320
And you know, has that impacted
your, your thinking?

251
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,800
Yeah, I think it comes back to
even the comment around China

252
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,880
where you're you're trying to
operate in these really

253
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,280
illogical markets, irrational
markets because even within the

254
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,080
EV space now you're starting to
see these articles coming out

255
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,040
about a glad of EVs in China.
You know they've they've built a

256
00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,120
lot of capacity, they're trying
to get it exported overseas.

257
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,240
I think you're seeing a little
bit of that play out with LFP

258
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:37,000
versus NMC right now.
There is so much over capacity

259
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,200
in LFPS that they are dirt, dirt
cheap and it makes sense to use

260
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,120
them.
I think there is a there is

261
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,080
still a very strong use case for
NMCS and I think that's why you

262
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,080
still kind of see the market in
A50506040 split.

263
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:52,880
So I think we do try and keep a
close eye on kind of how

264
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,760
technology is trending and
changing.

265
00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,560
It's hard, you know, we're not
battery experts by any means,

266
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,040
but I think from what we, you
know, from what our perspective,

267
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,320
you know, we definitely see that
there's kind of A use case for

268
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,080
both.
You know, there's the LFPS which

269
00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,560
are really suited to kind of
lower cost, lower range type

270
00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:15,600
vehicles, large vehicles.
And then you've kind of got NMCS

271
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,080
that are higher performing,
longer range, maybe heavier

272
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,800
vehicles.
You have to use them.

273
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,960
So yeah, and I think that
market, JT you stepping on this,

274
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,360
but that market has kind of
matured over the yeah, the last

275
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,040
like 5 years.
It feels like we're kind of

276
00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,480
settling into a bit of a groove
of like what's the preferred

277
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,880
technology or changing as
rapidly as before.

278
00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:35,680
So.
Yeah.

279
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,120
And like, like like I said, I'm
not a don't pretend to be a

280
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,040
battery expert.
We just consume as much research

281
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:43,480
that other people produce as we
can.

282
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,640
Does feel like every time I read
something it's telling a

283
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:50,920
slightly different story.
I think that zooming out at sort

284
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,400
of 40,000 feet, I think we can
get a bit tied up in this

285
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,240
argument of like is it LFP or
NMC?

286
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,040
And I think the answer will be
it's both and and more and very

287
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,000
others battery chemistries.
I think that in the same way we

288
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,240
have, I think I might have said
this before, 4 cylinder, 6

289
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,400
cylinder vehicles will have
different battery technologies

290
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,560
for different sorts of cars,
different sorts of vehicles.

291
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,960
But certainly the popularity of
LFP batteries is also driven by

292
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,960
the popularity of EVs in certain
parts of the world.

293
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,040
They're more popular in China.
The adoption rate in China is

294
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,000
much higher than than elsewhere
in parts of Europe.

295
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,800
And in those countries that
vehicles tend to be, tend to be

296
00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,000
large cities.
So tend to have lower range,

297
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,560
lighter, smaller vehicles.
I think if you want to have, you

298
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,040
know, large parts of the United
States driving electric

299
00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,520
vehicles, I think I can't see
them getting away from their

300
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,240
large vehicles anytime soon.
So that'll push towards a

301
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,480
different battery chemistry.
LFP battery tech is certainly

302
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,880
coming on in leaps and bounds as
far as energy density is

303
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:54,200
concerned.
I think that one of the other

304
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,520
challenges is, is also like what
is it a high nickel NMC or mid

305
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:03,360
nickel NMC battery?
Probably 12 months or so ago, it

306
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,160
felt like we were going towards
either no nickel or lots of

307
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,760
nickels like high, high nickel
NMC batteries or LFPS or no

308
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,560
nickel whatsoever.
Then the popularity of hybrids

309
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:13,800
kicks in.
Then you're starting to see a

310
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,000
lot of popularity now in mid
nickel NMC batteries.

311
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:21,200
So it does feel like whenever we
read something, it's a slightly

312
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,000
different story.
I think that trying to predict

313
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:29,080
where that's going to be in two,
5-10 years time is really

314
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,240
challenging.
I don't think that nickel is

315
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,240
going anywhere.
As far as the demand case, I

316
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,880
think the demand story is really
good under all scenarios.

317
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,520
You're still seeing predicted
cumulative annual growth rates

318
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,360
of like 7%.
That's goodbye anyone's measure

319
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,000
when you've got a big stainless
steel demand still driving,

320
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,760
still driving the story.
And then the kicker from from

321
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,000
batteries.
So I don't think it's going

322
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,960
anywhere, but I also think that
we don't need to be, we don't

323
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,640
need all electric vehicles in
the world to use nickel

324
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,200
batteries.
In order for there to be a great

325
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:01,920
use case for nickel in
batteries.

326
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,240
I think that they will continue
to exist.

327
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:08,720
Can be a bit frightening to
think of what happens if there's

328
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,760
a completely new battery
technology that comes as

329
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,680
solid-state batteries emerges
like the dominant Navy battery

330
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:18,119
technology random and that that
that's always a bit nerve

331
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:19,960
racking.
But I also think that the

332
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,400
incubation period for a new
battery technology takes a long

333
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,160
time because all the
infrastructure that's built

334
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,720
around it, that doesn't just
change overnight.

335
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,800
You know, Tesla's spending
billions of dollars building out

336
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,520
battery infrastructure in the
United States is built around a

337
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,560
nickel battery.
So I kind of suddenly go switch

338
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,800
that off.
We're now doing a sodium battery

339
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,840
or something like that.
Do you know why?

340
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,360
Joe Turco said.
We're still very optimistic

341
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:45,680
about the future of Cambelder.
It's because right before he

342
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,480
walked into the studio, he just
got off the phone with Derek

343
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,600
Hurd at Sandvik Ground Support,
who told him all about the

344
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,080
ground support innovations.
They could implement A Cassini

345
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,440
nickel mine when they restart
now.

346
00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,040
Derek probably said something
like this.

347
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,280
The the.
Logistics and warehouse people.

348
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:03,640
He then got the technical
people, obviously making sure

349
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,680
the product is the right
specification.

350
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,560
We have our after sales people
come on to come on to the site

351
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,400
and they'll do pull tests.
So they go on underground and

352
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,160
connect a hydraulic device to
try and pull the product out of

353
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:17,960
the ground to make sure it's
installed correctly.

354
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,840
So a bit of a QA perspective.
So it's so critical to match the

355
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,200
whole size to the bolt diameter
and for us to come along and

356
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,360
we'll do a pool test to make
sure that that has been done

357
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,200
correctly.
I'm positive about the future

358
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,760
too when I talked with Derek
Kerr to background support, so

359
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,680
you should get in touch with
Derek Kerr to tell him money of

360
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,040
mine sent you back to Arloo.
Should we talk about great land?

361
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:43,000
This has been a huge like we
while he's worth sitting on like

362
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,240
$500 billion of unrealized
profit right now in Greatlands.

363
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,080
Stock, you said a billion or a
million billion, billion.

364
00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:56,360
I would love 5. $100 billion,
anyway, you've got 500 billion,

365
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,320
yeah, $500 million over like,
yeah.

366
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:01,840
Is it?
Is it higher or lower than that?

367
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:04,520
So that a bit more than that.
A bit more than that, yeah.

368
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,880
It's it's a remarkable,
remarkable outcome.

369
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,120
And the, you know, the large
swath of that has come from

370
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:13,480
underwriting the acquisition of,
of, of Telther and the other 70%

371
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,720
of Haveron recently.
But, but that wasn't where you

372
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,080
kind of got into the story.
You probably don't even get the

373
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,160
inside edge or the opportunity
to do that unless that's why

374
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,720
they was there two years before
that with a strategic

375
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:31,040
investment, which at the time
was $60 million in a, in a

376
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,480
potential for 60 million more
fire options.

377
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,200
So how does that come about
originally?

378
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,440
What's what's the initial
interest like 2 years ago?

379
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:44,200
Yeah, I guess we sort of known,
both of us known Sean from his

380
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,160
previous roles at Northern Star
and sort of followed his move

381
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,760
into into Grayland and sort of
organically started up a

382
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,880
conversation with him around not
long after he started there

383
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,640
looking at different investment
opportunities.

384
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,480
And obviously they'd like to
have a strong supportive

385
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,640
shareholder around that time.
I think, you know, we like the

386
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,920
story.
You know, I think that this was

387
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,920
always part of the plan, but a
lot of the.

388
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,920
Holes in the wheels of cheese
needed to line up for it to to

389
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,480
to work out it.
Was still new Crest that's right

390
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,120
it was the jabby fun and new
Crest didn't grab them they were

391
00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:18,640
still playing games they.
Were playing games, yeah.

392
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,000
There was a lot of cat and mouse
going on, which is sort of

393
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:22,120
around the time that it
happened.

394
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:25,000
It's a funny story because I
remember when we first looked at

395
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,000
it, we compared it to the
Tropicana Stake and we were

396
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,040
like, how does this compared to
Tropicana that that was the way

397
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,880
we were thinking about it more
than, you know, I think at the

398
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,360
time we, you know, with Sean, we
were always saying, you know, we

399
00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:38,520
should go talk to a new Crest
that makes sense for these

400
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,440
things to come together.
It's an unloved asset in that

401
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,120
new Crest portfolio.
But our, our call like our first

402
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:49,040
bit of analysis was like this is
Trop, this is what Trop's valued

403
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,080
at.
You know, how does heavier on a

404
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,440
30% stake of heavier on stack up
against that?

405
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,160
Yeah.
And and so I think when we

406
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,720
initially looked at it, we
couldn't get the valuation to

407
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,920
stack up where I was trading at
the time kind of re engaged

408
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:06,320
again in mid 2022 share price.
I think that was sort of post

409
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,240
some of the fun and games with
with new Crest and we thought

410
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,600
the valuation now does stack up,
albeit as I said, a lot of those

411
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,080
pieces need to fall into place
in order for it to be the

412
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:16,880
roaring success that it is
today.

413
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,400
So that was probably reflective
in the nature of the investment.

414
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,160
I have modest investment in
equity and then you know the

415
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,000
some, some warrants that
attached to that.

416
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,400
The warrants were just just like
the leverage you have being a

417
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,320
strategic investor and I'm
listed like gold buying stock

418
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:33,880
because there's such little
capital.

419
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,640
You can get some juicy warrants
along the way I think.

420
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,560
It's I mean, those, those
warrants came about just from

421
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,080
being early investors.
You know, we got them when we

422
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,560
did the first place went into
into Greatland.

423
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,720
And I think the bits that you
know, you don't kind of see from

424
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,800
the outside is it's been a
three-year journey, you know,

425
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,720
working with those guys talking
and, you know, you, you again,

426
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,320
you don't see this, but a lot of
conversations with New Crest.

427
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,200
Then they'd all just fall away.
And you've invested all this

428
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,640
time and effort into trying to
get something done and then just

429
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,160
fall away overnight.
And then, you know, you have to

430
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,520
pick up from the beginning,
start a new conversation with

431
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:11,280
Newmont, try and get the deal
done.

432
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,160
The.
Moment that that Newmont

433
00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:16,600
announced that they were
acquiring new Crest, effectively

434
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,640
it was also that disclosure that
they're going to say realize

435
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,920
three $2 billion of asset
rationalization or the exact

436
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,760
same time.
So you kind of know immediately

437
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,680
this is probably on the table at
that point in time, yeah.

438
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:32,560
And then then they named Javier
and Telfa like among a list of

439
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:33,920
the assets we're going to
divest.

440
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,200
So like that was always like,
you know, that was the Greyland

441
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,120
plan, but there was no guarantee
that that was ever going to

442
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:42,880
happen.
So I think once, even before

443
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,360
that happened, when there was
starting to be rumours of Newman

444
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:50,000
new crests were like probably
shakes out, which it did.

445
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,840
And then then it sort of really
became like, all right, this is

446
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,680
this is looking like what we
hoped it would look like in

447
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,560
2022.
So then we, you know, well,

448
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,240
we've been supportive all along.
I think Sean and his team bring

449
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:11,720
a lot of energy to to to the
company and I think they shown

450
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,200
the ability to articulate and
execute on a strategy really

451
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,160
well.
So we, you know, we're

452
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:18,920
supportive all along.
We did the did the placement in

453
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,360
2022, in 2023, we provided them
with a like a credit facility as

454
00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:26,680
US $50 million credit facility
just to give them some financing

455
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,840
flexibility around the time, you
know, that they that they needed

456
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,760
some.
And then, yeah, as as you said

457
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,600
it, the the rumours around on
Newcrest happened.

458
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,320
They they they mentioned Javier
on Intelfa specifically.

459
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,040
It's not like, it's not like
Greatlands, you know, the share

460
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,320
price really reflected the
potential optimism that could

461
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,640
come because there's still a lot
of uncertainty about getting

462
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,560
that deal done right?
Like were they going to pay

463
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,360
yada, yada.
And the of course, The thing is

464
00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:54,960
well publicized now is the
amount of leverage they got from

465
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,600
the the right to get wrap their
wrap their hands around the

466
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,960
whole lot for what was appears
now in hindsight, a pretty

467
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,280
undemanding price paid.
But they're still they still

468
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,800
have to double the share count
in that capital raise And as an

469
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:13,920
AIM listed like gold miner, like
a raise, which I imagine

470
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,200
wouldn't have been very easy to
do if while you didn't

471
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,400
cornerstone it or underwrite.
Portion of it.

472
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:23,440
So I think like one thing we we,
we must say, you know, Sean and

473
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,320
and Rowan on that deal, you
know, I've never met two guys

474
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,400
more determined to get this deal
across the line.

475
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,600
They worked incredibly hard.
It's not easy, you know, when

476
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,760
you're a small, a small minor
trying to go to the world's

477
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:41,280
whatever second biggest gold
miner and try and try and buy

478
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,640
one of their assets.
It's not an easy thing to do.

479
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,440
And those two really did an
awesome job getting it across

480
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,480
the line.
But yeah, I think to your point,

481
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,520
you know, maybe Turkey, you can,
you can touch on a little bit

482
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,480
more.
But you know, I think the the

483
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,560
thing that we could bring and
that we could help was that we

484
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,760
could say to Newmont we'd bring
that financial back in to make

485
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:02,560
sure this deal closed.
Yeah.

486
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,800
I mean, it was like a rare
example of a win, win, win that,

487
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,480
you know, Newmont wanted to
divest of the asset.

488
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,800
They knew that greatly with a
logical owner.

489
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,880
The right gave them a lot of
leverage, but it was still a

490
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,120
really challenging transaction
because they had to raise more

491
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:20,560
than their market cap.
You know, they, to their credit,

492
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,880
accepted a bunch of script as
consideration and they also

493
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,840
needed, you know, some
financial, there's such a raise

494
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,200
a lot of money in spite of that.
We could lean in and and and

495
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,520
provide that, you know,
obviously the big name, but also

496
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:37,960
the the financing support.
I think we look back on it now

497
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,360
and think, oh, of course it's a
screaming deal.

498
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:42,120
Screaming deal.
But it was still all before

499
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:43,920
squeaky bum time.
Like there was a few nervous

500
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:45,840
moments leading into that.
That it was.

501
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,040
Yeah.
You know, you're asking for a

502
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,400
lot of money from from investors
who and on this obscure exchange

503
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,200
that no one really knows much of
down under so.

504
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,120
One day we will have to do like
a live podcast the night before

505
00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:01,680
a deal.
And.

506
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,080
You know, there's phone calls
and, you know, 12 AM in the

507
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,960
morning and you're trying to get
things done and, you know,

508
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,600
trying to fill a book that was
quite challenging at the time.

509
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,920
You know, it was a, you look
back on it now and that that

510
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,320
equity raise was done at a
pretty steep discount. 30%

511
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:18,720
discount.
Yeah, and that.

512
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,280
Was 4.84 point.
Eight, yeah, that was to get it

513
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,480
across the line, get across the
line it.

514
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,640
Was now, so you can't get your
hands on the stock if you if you

515
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,440
tried.
And the part that yeah,

516
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,960
obviously easy to overlook
originally, but is a huge source

517
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:38,040
of the the profit while the the
the the option to buy, you know,

518
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,640
half of half of new month's
stock at A at a fixed price

519
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:43,720
there of 7.2 pence that's.
Yeah.

520
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,880
So 50% premium to the right
price at the time?

521
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,440
It's kind of it's, it's kind of
an interesting dynamic, right?

522
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,600
Because you you've got leverage
in getting the deal over the

523
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:59,160
line by by providing by getting
some upside from the future sale

524
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,760
of the shares to to Newmont like
the link is triangular.

525
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,960
It's a clever, neat kind of
outcome that managed to stitch

526
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:05,560
it all together.
I.

527
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,800
Think, yeah, I think just
important to go back to kind of

528
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,520
what we were saying before.
You know, this deal took a long

529
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,400
time to incubate.
And I think the the one and only

530
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,560
role we played was providing
that certainty that we could

531
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,600
provide that financial backing.
The rest of the credit goes to

532
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,440
the Greatland team.
And you know, I think it, you

533
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,480
know, now it looks at the time,
I think Newmont, we're happy to

534
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,920
say you can, you can take this
off of me for a 50% premium.

535
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,200
It now looks like we've done a
smart deal, but at the time, so

536
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,040
Joel's point was a 111 for
everyone.

537
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,280
Yeah.
And and at the same time,

538
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,600
Newmont took a bunch of
consideration as script and that

539
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,920
script's now with three times
like they've sold it in the IPO,

540
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,840
like that's they've sold that
for three times what it was

541
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,520
issued at.
So they've also done

542
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,200
astonishingly well.
Credit to them for for leaning

543
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,600
into a pretty creative deal
structure that otherwise would

544
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,400
have made that deal really hard
to get across the line.

545
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:06,440
So yeah, just yeah, good gold
price sells, sells everything.

546
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,680
Now I understand all that, but I
don't understand how the OPS you

547
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,160
first got when you when you
tipped in money in 2022 those

548
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,400
they were called warrants.
Somehow when I when I read them

549
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,640
in the announcement back then
when I read them about them in

550
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,120
the prospectus, the expiry date
have been extended by three

551
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:22,760
years now.
I don't I don't understand how

552
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,880
that happens.
So I've never seen that one

553
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,440
before.
That's.

554
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:26,800
Just neat.
It's just neat if everything

555
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,520
expires at the same time.
I think look mate, I think the

556
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,600
the option was a is a an
agreement between US and and

557
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,000
Newmont and then providing the
actual underwrite to Greatland.

558
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,320
You know again at the time most
people would ask for an

559
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,280
underwrite fee.
We asked for an extension on the

560
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,840
warrant term.
So you know, at the time I think

561
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,840
everyone goes, yeah, that's an
easy thing to give away versus

562
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,560
cash.
But now, now it's value.

563
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,200
Yeah.
I also think it reflects the

564
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,760
fact that when we, when we were
initially granted those warrants

565
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,920
in 2022 and we did the capital
right of the placement like 8.2

566
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,400
P and then the warrant exercise
price was 10 P So it's like a

567
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,800
relatively modest premium.
And at the time, those warrants,

568
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,240
if converted, accounted for
about 6% of the register,

569
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,320
whereas, you know, now those 10P
warrants are more than 100%

570
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,200
premium to the capital raise at
4.8 P And, you know, assuming

571
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,120
that the deal gets away, they're
now with 2 1/2% of the register.

572
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:23,520
So it's sort of a little bit of
a balance there.

573
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,640
There's a little bit of, yeah.
I want some of those warrants.

574
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,200
So just you can just you can
just extend it.

575
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,280
Yeah, I think.
You've got to remember though,

576
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,680
like we walked away from a lot
of fees at the time in exchange

577
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,360
for those warrants.
And yeah, they've it's worked

578
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,400
out now, but you know, it could
have gone the other way where,

579
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,240
you know, we walked away from a
fee and and had something that's

580
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,800
not worth anything.
That's that.

581
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,240
Yeah.
Well, there's a lesson there in

582
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:46,520
alignment too.
Like this.

583
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,640
Yeah.
Equities long term, yeah, a fee

584
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,240
is transactional.
Yeah, that's right.

585
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,160
When you were reflecting on the
the price and the the price tag

586
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,440
that Gretlin was going to have
to pay becomes apparent to to

587
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,280
you, what's your sort of gut
feeling if you can cast your

588
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,800
mind back?
Yeah.

589
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,200
I think you go through all this
work around trying to

590
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:17,880
triangulate around a, a price.
I think, you know, they got very

591
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,600
lucky with timing as well.
Greatland, I think this is, it's

592
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,960
been a great deal, but it's also
been a great deal around this.

593
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,800
The timing of it's been really,
really good.

594
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,160
You got to remember in those
days they're just taking it over

595
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,760
and I just announced a, a
tailings dam pothole that was

596
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,240
causing a massive headaches.
They had to suspend production.

597
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,040
So worked out well for Greatland
because it was an asset that I

598
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,520
think was just causing you want
a lot of headaches that were

599
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,800
keen to offload it.
It needed some work fixing the

600
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,760
tailings dam.
And I think, you know, overall

601
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,000
was a good outcome for them, you
know, resulted in a big

602
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,200
stockpile coming along with the
deal, which was which was great

603
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,400
and just to get started.
But at the time, like we, you

604
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,360
know, when they were looking at
the price they were going to pay

605
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,640
for it, you know, there were
also all these issues with it.

606
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,640
So, yeah, what, what, what I'm
really curious about is the, the

607
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,440
commitment that you already had.
You'd already put money and I

608
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,320
would feel that, you know,
investing my own money.

609
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,600
But this is a, a much bigger
scale that you guys are doing

610
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,040
it.
You'd, you'd written big checks

611
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,560
and you know, given the the
facility as well, did you feel

612
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,480
that same sort of commitment
that you have to follow it?

613
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:28,120
Through well, you went hard.
You you actually, you went hard

614
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,520
in the underwrite and it was the
first time I'd noticed you guys

615
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,760
go hard since Mink or.
Yeah, yeah, I don't, yeah.

616
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,280
I don't think it was a you know,
I know what you're saying is

617
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,560
like, you know, you're kind of 1
foot in, do you just go both

618
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,080
foot?
Yeah, I don't think that was the

619
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:41,280
case.
I mean, we really do look at

620
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,000
things, you know, on an
individual basis every.

621
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,520
Decision on its merits.
On its merits.

622
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,560
Incrementally on its merits.
I think the only thing I would

623
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,840
say with that was that we do
have a very strong view that

624
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,800
heavier on is a fantastic asset.
And I think we had a strong view

625
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,240
that TULFA wasn't getting a lot
of love and you know we knew

626
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:58,680
there were things like we're
storm deep.

627
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,240
So there was all this potential
there that kind of people had

628
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,480
spoken about, but never really
gone and spent the time really

629
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,840
investigating.
So I think from like a quality

630
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,800
of the all body perspective, we
were, we had a pretty strong

631
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,400
conviction.
But I mean, at the time and you

632
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,920
jump in here JT, like at the
time we were like, this is still

633
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,680
a big acquisition for a small
company and you know you're

634
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,120
nervous when you're when you're
doing it.

635
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,720
Yeah.
When we, I mean, the benefit of

636
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,440
having invested 2 years prior is
that you're already across a lot

637
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,400
of the details of the project.
You've got your own models and

638
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,040
an analysis around it.
I think when we're looking at

639
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,680
something as big and
transformational as this, as

640
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,280
this deal was, I like to look at
it for the lens of like, what do

641
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:43,240
you have to believe for this to
be the downside to be here?

642
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,640
So as long as you're protected
sufficiently on the downside and

643
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,200
then what you have to believe
for this to be a stonker, You

644
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,040
know, I'd be lying if I said
that I had my model spitting out

645
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,600
these sorts of evaluations so
quickly because we weren't

646
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,560
running as an aggressive gold
price through the model.

647
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,280
But I think what we did look at,
we believed in the in the

648
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,560
potential for Telfer extension.
We believed in the we still do

649
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,720
believe in the quality of the of
the heavier and all body.

650
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,760
But then we also would run some
sort of doomsday scenarios like

651
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:15,120
what happens if there is this
gap between Telfer Delfer

652
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,560
production heavier on coming
online.

653
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,120
So if all of these things happen
and maybe the gold price softens

654
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,720
is the downside.
What's the downside scenario?

655
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,800
What's the upside scenario?
And I think where we got to on

656
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,800
Greatland is that it was like
real asymmetric risk profile, a

657
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,680
lot more risk to the upside than
to the downside.

658
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,360
And that gave us the confidence
to to follow our investment.

659
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,520
And you're right, that was our
first big swing since main core.

660
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,840
And yeah, I think it's, yeah, a
combination of, you know,

661
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,360
confidence in our commercial
position, confidence in our

662
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,120
technical analysis, and then
confidence in the like the, the

663
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,720
known quantity of the, of the,
of the company, of the

664
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,680
management of the board, the
technical team.

665
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,640
You know, we spent a lot of
time, they are our technical

666
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,440
people speaking with their
technical people, led by Simon,

667
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,680
who do a fantastic job.
And then I think when I look

668
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,240
like it's something a great
deal, and I was chatting about

669
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,080
it today, like what's what's
made this such a great deal?

670
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,920
And I think it's a few factors
that relate to, to one another.

671
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,520
Like one they've, they've bought
really well.

672
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,080
Like there's no getting away
from the fact that they've

673
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:16,760
bought really well.
It's a tried and tested

674
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,320
strategy.
You, you buy an asset that

675
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,639
shakes out of a major that's not
getting the capital allocation

676
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:25,360
and management time and
attention in that big portfolio.

677
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,679
The gold price has been strong.
The asset has outperformed

678
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,080
through a combination of having
that capital allocation and

679
00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:38,239
management time and attention
and a strong gold price, giving

680
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,760
the ability to look at other
production opportunities, other

681
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,520
other, other mining
opportunities.

682
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,400
And then like a bit of that good
luck and, and, and timing like

683
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,320
the the TSF issue creating this
great big stockpile right before

684
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,920
completion that you can pump
through the meal.

685
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:01,040
So I think a lot of those things
are interrelated, obviously, but

686
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,800
ultimately we we look at what do
you have to believe for this to

687
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,720
be a bad investment?
What you have to believe this to

688
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:09,920
be a good investment where those
valuations come out.

689
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,600
And then when something is as
asymmetric to the upside as this

690
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,560
was, I think we'll give us the
confidence to to go at it.

691
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,480
You're.
Going to do any more in gold?

692
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:21,160
We've done a bid in gold.
Yeah, you've got to remember we

693
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,560
we tried the RAID on.
I think we just I think about

694
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:24,200
this all the.
Time.

695
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,280
I think about it a lot as well.
We look at that share price as

696
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:29,720
well.
How do you reflect on it?

697
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,320
Oh my.
God, I think, let's look, let's

698
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,880
get to the back story because
people probably won't be

699
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:35,560
familiar with this was like.
Oh, let's.

700
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,960
Not 30th of June 2020 was the
30th of June to market and you

701
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,800
guys, you guys launch.
You've already got 4.9% kind of

702
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,440
undisclosed at this point and
you'd launch a feel like kill

703
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,720
for another 15%.
Baron Joey's like phoning,

704
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,960
phoning people up for you and
and they get to 12.

705
00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:58,000
So it's Phil or kill and in this
case you didn't get filled, so

706
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,760
it's killed.
Do you wish you took the 12

707
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,920
though?
It wasn't even, I won't tell you

708
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,320
what exactly.
It wasn't 12.

709
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,080
It was decimal places of a
percent that we were all filled.

710
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,400
Oh, really?
Why Phil or kill?

711
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,320
Look, I think the one thing that
is important to us is if we say

712
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,360
something, we stick with it.
And you know we told the market

713
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,880
it's full of kill.
So this is your opportunity to

714
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,880
sell your stock at the end of
the financial year.

715
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,760
And what what we don't want to
go and do is we say that and

716
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,640
then I will just take whatever
we get next time we try and do

717
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,800
the same thing.
You know, we've we don't have

718
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,040
that track record.
I think if we say something, we

719
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,720
stick with it.
I mean, we look back on it now

720
00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:40,160
and of course, again,
hindsight's 5050, you know, we

721
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,280
would have made as good a return
on, on Regis as, as what we've

722
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:48,040
just done on Greatland.
But yeah, and look, I think

723
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,480
Regis is a great story.
We we don't have any shares in

724
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,760
it anymore, but similar kind of
view on it that, you know, that

725
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,160
Duked and Bolt hasn't had a lot
of exploration.

726
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,480
And I think there's more to come
from that part of the world.

727
00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:01,920
Regis was so out of favor back
then too.

728
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,000
Like I remember every bank was
pitching defense.

729
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,320
They, you know, the market was
hiding them for overpaying drop

730
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,000
and, and wearing all that with
the hedge book at the same time

731
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,280
and gold price fell off, which
really complicated all all of

732
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,120
those factors.
But you can't you, you it did

733
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,400
take a bit of kindness to be
like, you know, that no, this is

734
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:20,680
cheap.
It's not like it's not

735
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:21,720
warranted.
This is cheap, yeah.

736
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,880
Yeah, I mean, we looked across
the whole ASX gold landscape at

737
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,000
that around that time towards
the end of that financial year.

738
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:32,400
And you know the like the whole
ASX gold landscape was trading

739
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,760
at like reasonable discounted.
And like, I don't know if you've

740
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:40,200
been around mining gold and,
and, and punching out gold

741
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,600
decks, which I know you did a
few of your time and travel and

742
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,680
I suddenly did a few of my time
doesn't tend to try to at large

743
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,560
discount and have very long.
And so that was sort of the like

744
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,680
the Super macro view.
It was like, it was like these

745
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,280
Aussie gold socks trading a
discount we took instead of

746
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:56,880
sprinkling.
We, we, we started out, we

747
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,120
thought we'll sprinkle a bit of
capital around and then and

748
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,120
then, you know, chatting with
the, the rest of the team

749
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,720
thought let's have a swing here.
And and and Regis was the one

750
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:08,600
and go gosh, yeah.
Hey, it freed us up to be able

751
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,000
to do.
I mean, that's the that's the

752
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,520
thing.
It's a sliding doors moment,

753
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:12,880
right?
You always remember the ones

754
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,880
that you're like, oh, if only.
But then at the same time, you

755
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,680
know, Grayland, we, we, you
know, we got it right and we got

756
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,440
the timing right and we got
lucky with it and a combination

757
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,520
of great execution, good luck
and timing.

758
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,320
So you say a macro view, but
you're not actually thinking the

759
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,320
dollarization, you know, U.S.
debt and these sorts of things.

760
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:37,360
That was only a few months after
Russia had invaded Ukraine and

761
00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:40,680
assets had been seized.
It was very much these are

762
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,360
trading to a discounted NAV.
Yeah.

763
00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:46,600
I mean, I think we look at what
brokers was saying on on gold

764
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,280
price, I think our view on the
kind of more macro side of it

765
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,160
was probably a little more
driven around.

766
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,160
I think the thing we watch a
little bit more with gold and

767
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,640
and there's not a direct science
in this or correlation to it.

768
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,440
But you know, we're looking at
inflation rates, we're looking

769
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,600
at government debts and we're
kind of going like everywhere in

770
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,080
the world seems over levered.
We look like we're going into

771
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,320
this inflationary environment.
Interest rates are going to go

772
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,320
up.
You know, gold looks like a

773
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:11,880
sensible place to park some
money.

774
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,120
Did we think it was going to go
as well as it has?

775
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:15,840
No.
And are we some like gold

776
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,240
savants?
Definitely not.

777
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:19,800
But it was a bit of that just
very, very high level.

778
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,080
Like where do we think kind of
global economies are going?

779
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,520
And that's how we made the
decision.

780
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,480
Yeah.
And then we just then then we

781
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,040
like just nerds and got into
nerves and yeah, gold comps and.

782
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,600
Yeah.
What?

783
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,640
You just were being addicted to
those rolling P NAV charts.

784
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,240
Yeah, that's right.
Exactly right.

785
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,760
So the the what would you have
done if you if you got the 19.9%

786
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,680
stake, like what would your next
move have been?

787
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:46,480
Hostile.
Take her No.

788
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,240
No, look, I think again like I
think, look, we don't know the

789
00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:54,560
business well enough to kind of
tell you what I think the

790
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,800
strategy would have been.
But I think at the time we hated

791
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,320
that hedge and we thought, you
know, could we help these guys

792
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,560
get out of the hedge And look, I
think.

793
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,640
We think Dukedon's got more to
go than than, you know, what I

794
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,280
think people realize.
I think it's got good

795
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,000
exploration upside there.
And I think the other thing that

796
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,880
we thought at the time was it
wasn't really well disclosed how

797
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,680
much CapEx they had, I remember.
There was a high CapEx period of

798
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,160
Tropicana.
Yeah, where?

799
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:23,640
The view that they were coming
out of that.

800
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,880
And even at Dukedon, they were
moving underground and they were

801
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:27,840
spending a lot of money getting
the undergrounds up and running.

802
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,320
And we thought to ourselves,
this is kind of a one off and

803
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,600
and only because it hasn't been
kind of wall guarded to the

804
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,480
market, the market's
overreacting how much capital is

805
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,840
required.
So it was struggling to produce

806
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,680
free cash flow.
It was going to be capital.

807
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:41,640
And spend period Mcfilm is that
too?

808
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,680
And they had celebrating the.
Power and Phil is getting next

809
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,120
as.
Well, so look, I think them like

810
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,240
again, like there were a few
things that I think we would

811
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:51,720
have, would have tried to help
them with, but Jim said does a

812
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:52,960
good job.
They're they're they're

813
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,600
consistent performers.
And yeah, I think they'll

814
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,600
they'll do well out of those
undergrounds at Duketon.

815
00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:58,960
And I think there's more to go
in that bolt.

816
00:40:58,960 --> 00:40:59,960
Yeah.
I think we're just looking at

817
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:03,880
going, this is a mature cash
flow generative gold project

818
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:05,480
trading at a significant
discount.

819
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,200
These opportunities don't come
around very often and they don't

820
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,200
last very long.
That was that was the the high

821
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:19,320
level driver and then we got
into the into the leads. 11 more

822
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:24,600
for reflecting on it has been AI
don't know right what the right

823
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,320
word to use is, but I imagine a
bit of a roller coaster with

824
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,520
your investment Hastings, which
is which is no longer an

825
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,200
investment in Hastings.
It's now we talked about your

826
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,040
own the shares in their
performance materials and the

827
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,560
60% interest in the younger
banner joint venture.

828
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,280
When when you kind of like go
back to the the deal you guys

829
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,000
did you, you you provided the
the con note to facilitate

830
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,080
Hastings to buy strategic stake
in Neo.

831
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,800
Maybe there was a view to kind
of bring it all together and

832
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,200
your instrument kind of, you
know, allowed that to happen and

833
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,480
you reflect now.
OK, you've you've got the shares

834
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,720
which you probably kind of cared
about and the and the and

835
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:07,240
interest in the project as well.
But all of that said, would you

836
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:11,520
still done the same deal you did
back then to lend Hastings?

837
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,040
Yeah, they're convertible.
It's a, it's an interesting one

838
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,720
more in the context of we're a
pretty small team at Wyloo and I

839
00:42:18,720 --> 00:42:21,480
think at the time we're just
coming off of the neuron

840
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,480
acquisition.
We rolled into Greatland and

841
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,800
Hastings and then shortly after
that did Minkle.

842
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,640
Yeah, we did Greatland and
Hastings in a month of each

843
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,160
other.
And I and I don't think we kind

844
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,200
of realized how much we would be
taking on like you, if you look

845
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,240
at Wilder today, you know it's
two projects we own outright 1/3

846
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:40,160
project that we've got 60% in
and then a pretty sizeable

847
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,880
investment portfolio.
And we're running it out of our

848
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,400
Perth office of 20 people.
And I think it's a very

849
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,040
different kettle of fish when
you're trying to operate assets

850
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,560
versus just being a just being
an investor that running,

851
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,000
running mines is a very
different set up to just running

852
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,120
a portfolio.
And we run both.

853
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,240
And I think that makes us quite
unique because we're comfortable

854
00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:03,960
taking on assets and integrating
them.

855
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,560
And I think, you know, over the
last three months, I would say

856
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,760
on Hastings, you know, when we
first took over the rent, we

857
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,120
had, you know, we didn't have
the infrastructure in place to

858
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,760
actually take on that business.
And I think we've gone on a long

859
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,040
journey as a, as a group, you
know, picking up the Angie

860
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,040
banner now was just it's really
easy.

861
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,600
You know, we've got the systems
in place, we've got everything

862
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,160
we need to operate it.
We've got the right people and

863
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:29,360
you know, could we go and do
that again?

864
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,080
Absolutely got the platform to
now be able to go and do those

865
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,560
things to be real operators.
But then on the flip side, we've

866
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,760
also got great investment people
like Joel and his team and doing

867
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:45,280
deals like like great land.
So we're very, very unique set

868
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,680
up I think in the mining space.
But but As for like would we do

869
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,080
it again?
Yeah, I would.

870
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:52,880
I think we like that condo
structure.

871
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:57,400
I think for the, you know, the
the reasons that that have

872
00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:01,720
played out now, I think when we
when we originally did the deal,

873
00:44:01,720 --> 00:44:04,960
this isn't this wasn't the plan,
this wasn't plan A, but it's a

874
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,480
good fall back Plan B and.
You think it, do you think it in

875
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:14,480
you think like it made Hastings
getting project financing a kind

876
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,480
of well, I know, I know, I know
there's a project financing kind

877
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,200
of, but do you think it made
them getting financing for that

878
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,200
project like much, much more
challenging?

879
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:25,680
Yeah, it's a good, good question
because coming out of it now,

880
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,800
you know, I think unfortunately
Yang Japan has been a little bit

881
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,720
tainted by the Hastings
experience.

882
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:35,160
And I think we've kind of we've
lost sight of the fact that this

883
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,480
is a project that's had $200
million plus put into it.

884
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,920
It's fully permitted.
Last tennis court.

885
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,680
Yeah, beautiful camp, beautiful
airstrip, big ball field, the

886
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,240
one try.
To site ready to go clear.

887
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,000
What was that about the camp
Luca?

888
00:44:49,240 --> 00:44:50,840
Beautiful camp.
A beautiful camp.

889
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:54,760
Now that reminds me, JD, you see
this Belkauer Times article?

890
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,680
Mining camp door slammer vows to
intensify his efforts at

891
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,760
spacious new FIFO resort.
Now, mate, Big Dave sounds like

892
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,040
a knob.
But FIFO workers, they just want

893
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:06,280
a room that allows a good
night's sleep.

894
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,240
Hear it from Paul Natoli
himself.

895
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,600
His grounded group knows this.
That's why they build with

896
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,400
acoustics in mind.
Yeah, so seven years ago, I'd

897
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,840
like to stay up and we set out
to do a survey to really

898
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:23,560
understand what it is that FIFO
guys and girls like, love and

899
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,360
and hate about their camps.
So we collated that data, right,

900
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,160
which is very similar data to
what we're getting today, funny

901
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,640
enough.
So it still hasn't changed or

902
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,320
changed much.
Comms noise in rooms, you know,

903
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,360
acoustics is, is, is one of the
biggest things, the bed.

904
00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:43,960
So we designed, we called it the
designer donga.

905
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,760
What should be the new standard
of living out in mining camps

906
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,840
and and remote communities?
Grounded gets it, so get with

907
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,160
it.
The bit that really gets me is

908
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,960
you, you go to these warehouses
here in Perth and they're full

909
00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,040
of is 2 complete plants sitting
in warehouses big order clave.

910
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,720
It's you know, it's incredible
and you know, you kind of

911
00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:06,120
resided the fact that you know,
this thing could be producing

912
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,920
concentrate in 18 months.
It's unlike any other rare, rare

913
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,400
project around the world.
Every other projects got, you

914
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,960
know, years and years ahead of
it of permitting or billion.

915
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,200
Dollars plus of capital.
Billion dollars plus of capital

916
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:18,760
or in a challenging
jurisdiction.

917
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,640
So I think we really like the
Angie Banner story from that

918
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,280
perspective that, you know, if
things keep going in the right,

919
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,920
right way in the rear space,
this is a project that's kind of

920
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,760
turnkey and you can really get
off the ground quickly.

921
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,080
So I.
Mean one thing that we were

922
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,400
Hastings and while we came to
structure around in the initial

923
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,320
investment was that we did not
encumber the asset.

924
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,000
So that left the ability for
them to put project finance

925
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,080
against the asset.
This had a security guarantee

926
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:51,600
against the the NEO shares.
Yeah, I think it look, with the

927
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,080
benefit of hindsight, again, I
think it did that the package to

928
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:58,600
create some challenges.
I also think that, you know, the

929
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,240
initial idea was to see if there
was something that could happen

930
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,280
between Hastings and Neo.
And you know, I listened to your

931
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:10,320
recent rare earth spectacular
and you know, the comment around

932
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:12,760
the whole mine to magnet
strategy being like a bit of a

933
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,360
crazy 1.
And I think that it's true in a

934
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,200
sense that you're a rare earth
mine developer.

935
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,000
I think, OK, magnets, you've got
rocks in your head.

936
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,240
I think that's true.
That's a very, very challenging

937
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,120
pathway.
It'd take you decades to get

938
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,200
there, but can you stitch
together a supply chain that

939
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:30,560
takes it from mine to make it
so?

940
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,080
I think you can.
And I think that was the

941
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:38,560
opportunity that we liked, you
know, for us now having the

942
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,360
obviously the guarantee over the
the neo shares and we don't have

943
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,960
ownership of those neo shares.
Like Neo is a business unlike

944
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,120
any other.
Like I don't it's such I've

945
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:49,720
heard brokers described as like
an enigma.

946
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:51,640
They don't know how to classify.
They're not sure who's

947
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,520
investment mandate it fits into
broke like broker coverage is is

948
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,480
a bit disjointed because it
doesn't quite fit anywhere.

949
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,160
But it is cool company.
It's a really cool, really

950
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:03,960
interesting company.
It's the only company of its

951
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,880
type in the world, you know, and
we focus so much on the magnets.

952
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:08,760
There's sort of three verticals
in there.

953
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,000
The magnets the one that you've
spoken about nice they are it's

954
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,840
it's 1/3 of the company and it
but it is the only producer at

955
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,960
scale of permanent magnets
outside of China like that on

956
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,920
its own, it's just such a
compelling story still blows our

957
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,240
mind that it is sub billion
dollar company probably isn't

958
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,080
had a fairly good elements.
Still sub a billion.

959
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,720
I think the other thing with
with Neo is you know like going

960
00:48:31,720 --> 00:48:33,680
through the kind of down cycle
on rear.

961
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,600
It's there was a point in time
where it was the only cash flow

962
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,080
positive rear with company on
all the global exchanges.

963
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:43,120
And I and you kind of look at it
and you go this thing's doing

964
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,560
three times the EBITDA of Lanas,
but it's got you know a tenth of

965
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,720
the market cap and that's what
we liked about it.

966
00:48:48,720 --> 00:48:51,400
And I think we picked up the
shares at 860.

967
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:53,280
Yep, Currently sitting at about
40.

968
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,040
So it's done really well.
If you're asking us if we'd redo

969
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,320
the deal, those numbers speak
for themselves, yeah.

970
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,840
Doesn't, doesn't, it's doesn't,
didn't EO kind of the stake that

971
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,880
you guys ultimately help
Hastings buy you now own they

972
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,560
bought that off of Oak Tree and
Oak Tree's interest rates back

973
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,040
to the kind of Molly Culp.
Yeah.

974
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:15,640
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, gosh, the history of

975
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:16,920
the company is quite
fascinating.

976
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:21,760
Like had a few resurrections and
yeah.

977
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:23,280
And here it is today.
Is this, you know?

978
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,400
Yeah, it's producer of pairing
magnets and magnet materials and

979
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,880
a bunch of really unusual like
rare metals, the rare metals

980
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,560
division and catalysts and
chemicals and oxides.

981
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,600
So it's, yeah, really
fascinating business.

982
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,840
So we're still learning about.
Has your has your enthusiasm for

983
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,760
like rare Earth changed in the
last two years?

984
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:47,800
I think I famously called it
Pixie dust.

985
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,720
Pixie dust, you guys.
It hasn't for me.

986
00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:54,480
I mean, I think, I think every
electronic device in this room

987
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,880
has a little rare earth
something in it doesn't have to

988
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,160
be NDPR.
It can be one of the other 17

989
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,160
rare earths.
And I think that that makes it

990
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,240
quite special.
I think, you know, more and more

991
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:08,280
we're going to need these, these
minerals.

992
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,360
So I think the demand side for
me with Ray Earth's is different

993
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,640
to the demand side on batteries.
We spoke about different battery

994
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,000
chemistry changes.
Ray Earth's says none of that.

995
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,760
It's like it is what it is and
you need it across all these use

996
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,280
cases.
So I think from a demand

997
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,680
perspective, I mean, still very
bullish on it.

998
00:50:24,720 --> 00:50:27,240
Is it an incredibly hard sector
to operate in?

999
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:30,960
Absolutely.
It's it's just very challenging

1000
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,560
where 1 country dominates 90% of
the supply chain and really sees

1001
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:39,080
it as a, sees it as a strategic
asset for the country.

1002
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:40,800
And that makes it incredibly
difficult.

1003
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,880
But I think the demand will, I
think the demand is so strong

1004
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,840
that that dynamic will change
over time because the demand is

1005
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,600
coming out, is coming through
from all over the world.

1006
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,600
It's not just coming through
from, from China.

1007
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,480
You're seeing it come through in
Europe, you're seeing it come

1008
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,480
through in America.
And those supply chains have to

1009
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,320
get off the ground.
So, yeah, again, I mean, I think

1010
00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:02,680
from in terms of that
investment, you know, we got the

1011
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,560
new shares back that's really
covered kind of our initial

1012
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,320
investment and we've picked up
Yangibana.

1013
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,440
And I think a good reminder
that, you know, Yangibana was a

1014
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,680
$600 million company and we
think it could go back there in

1015
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:20,960
the right riff environment.
Do you wait for the the playing

1016
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,760
field to change or do you just
press ahead with development?

1017
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,560
Like a fair bit has been spent,
but a fair bit more still has to

1018
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:28,440
be spent.
Yeah, I think it's a private

1019
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,720
company.
The last thing is we can, you

1020
00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:33,800
know, we can take a longer term
view on things.

1021
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,120
So that's what we'll do with the
Angie banner.

1022
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,160
We're we've got our eyes on the
bigger prize at the end of it.

1023
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,880
So, you know, once we we get the
keys, we're still waiting for

1024
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,360
the deal to fully complete.
You know, we'll have a look at

1025
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:49,720
everything and we'll do you know
the necessary work to make sure

1026
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:53,200
that longer term we aren't we
unlocking full value on that

1027
00:51:53,240 --> 00:51:55,640
that project.
I think first I was really

1028
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,240
reintroducing the project to the
world because there has been a

1029
00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:01,240
little bit forgotten about.
I think that, you know, on the,

1030
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,720
there was a notable absence of
any mention of the Angie banner

1031
00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:05,440
on their risk.
We were talking about other,

1032
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:06,920
other projects and I'm like,
they're great.

1033
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,200
And and like all of those
projects need to get out, right?

1034
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,000
Like all like.
Maybe indirectly, like maybe

1035
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,800
maybe anybody can feed any ABBA,
maybe talk about any ABBA.

1036
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:15,720
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, yeah.

1037
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,120
I mean, we talk about has our
enthusiasm for rare earth wind,

1038
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,800
like I don't think it's ever
been, there's ever been more

1039
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,120
momentum and interest in it from
a like it sits at the

1040
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:30,800
intersection of, you know,
technology and geopolitics at

1041
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:32,080
the moment.
Like there's never been more

1042
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:33,440
interest.
There's never been more

1043
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,200
politicians using the words
railroads in, in history.

1044
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,120
You know, a lot of it's still
missing, not well understood, I

1045
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:44,840
would say, but you know,
fascinating discussion on the

1046
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,640
previous podcast and I, I
learned a lot from it as well.

1047
00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:51,240
But I, I, I agree.
I think that people are

1048
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:55,960
realizing certain governments
are realizing that it is a, you

1049
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,440
know, they are commodities of,
of, of national interest and of

1050
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:07,680
that require security.
I think it's one of the, you

1051
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,920
guys have talked about this on
the pod before, but you know,

1052
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:14,600
the, the bifurcation became like
a punchline and Rusty talked

1053
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,200
about, it's like, you know,
everyone's teasing about it, but

1054
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:19,280
like we actually see it.
We have seen it in rare.

1055
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,600
It's like the end of last year
there was a restriction on

1056
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:26,120
Chinese explosive gallium ex
China gallium Ross like was 70%

1057
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:30,320
up from Chinese scaling supply
like that is a security of

1058
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,240
supply premium and and I think
that if.

1059
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,120
You want to play that idea, you
have to own Neo.

1060
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,880
Yeah.
So it's, so I think it's a.

1061
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:39,760
Ding, Ding, Ding.
That's right.

1062
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:46,640
Big, big, big Ding, Ding, Ding.
So yeah, like, I think that it

1063
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:52,040
is, Yeah.
It's a really fascinating space

1064
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:57,840
to be in.
It's incredibly complex, but the

1065
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,880
world needs more of this
production of these critical

1066
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,640
meals and it needs the
processing pathways and

1067
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,840
infrastructure.
I guess the one thing that I

1068
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:10,600
probably did disagree slightly
with in that discussion was like

1069
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,080
the tendency to discuss it from
like what's like best for the

1070
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,480
world and like, oh, this
efficient supply chain.

1071
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,920
But like the, the challenge
comes when, you know, at first

1072
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,160
contact, when companies don't
just do things because it's

1073
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:24,840
because they're altruistic and
it's good for the world.

1074
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,720
Like there needs to be a
commercial benefit to the

1075
00:54:26,720 --> 00:54:28,120
company.
I think that's the that's a huge

1076
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:29,840
challenge here.
It's like what's good for the

1077
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:31,240
country, what's good for the
world.

1078
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:36,240
Companies need to make money
trying to find that that overlap

1079
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:39,680
in the in the Venn diagram.
I'd be thrilled if I look it

1080
00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:41,080
decided to make commercial
decisions.

1081
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,480
No comment, no comment, no
comment.

1082
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:51,080
I mean, like that's AI mean
that's a that's a project that,

1083
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:56,000
you know, once built will be a
piece of infrastructure of

1084
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,800
national significance.
You know, is there a pathway to

1085
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:03,520
to to make like Australia, which
has great rare earth deposits

1086
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,680
to, to make us a serious player?
You know, I think that that is,

1087
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:11,200
you know, and, and, and
government's putting on its

1088
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,720
critical thinking hat and trying
to find interesting solutions to

1089
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,400
to government's credit.
I think like rare earths like

1090
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,640
any other, it's like a kin to
the government having to keep a

1091
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:25,480
refinery open because we we're
not able to refine fuel that,

1092
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:27,480
you know, some kind kind of
government support.

1093
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,520
I think in the future that's
what rare earths will become.

1094
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,280
But you will need this
infrastructure.

1095
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:36,560
It'll be it'll be critical.
So I think yeah, I mean we're

1096
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:39,880
supportive of of any other see
where it goes, but.

1097
00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:42,000
If it's used as a local buyer of
fuel.

1098
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:43,400
Yeah.
That's true.

1099
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,880
But you know, the one other
thing just to remind everyone

1100
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,560
is, you know, you saw factories
in Germany shutting down for,

1101
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,160
you know, a couple of weeks
because they couldn't get

1102
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,320
magnets.
And same thing happened in a

1103
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,880
Suzuki factory in Japan.
So you know, our manufacturing

1104
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,480
industry here in Australia, as
much as it's very small, is not

1105
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,160
insulated from that.
At some point you know you're

1106
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,760
going to have a magnet in an
Australian made product and

1107
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,640
you've got to be sure that you
know you're able to actually get

1108
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:14,000
access to it.
We should totally talk policy

1109
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:16,840
because I do you're, you're
you're not afraid to speak your

1110
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,520
views on on policy.
And it's and it's wicked like I

1111
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:21,680
expected a lot.
I suspect we have some

1112
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:27,080
disagreements on views of like,
yeah, desirable levels of policy

1113
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,400
intervention or desirable levels
of government support in terms

1114
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,120
of need and all that and all
that kind of stuff.

1115
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,080
But I mean, you guys have come
at it from an angle of being

1116
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,280
like miners of critical
minerals, critical mineral space

1117
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:38,960
needing to grow a nice industry,
etcetera.

1118
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:40,880
Yeah.
Why do you why do you believe

1119
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,520
that the things you do about
government like and policy

1120
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,280
support?
Around yeah, for like from my

1121
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,120
perspective, it's not so much
about government subsidizing

1122
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,280
industry in any way or like
losing focus of free market

1123
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:57,280
principles, but the reality is
in our space, we do not operate

1124
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,440
in a free markets world.
You know, there's very different

1125
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,880
standards around mining and I
think that's really starting to

1126
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,840
hit home a little bit.
I think in in the all Western

1127
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,280
governments, I think there's
been a massive wake up call in

1128
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:15,040
Canada, massive wake up call in
Europe that you can't just go

1129
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:18,880
around blocking every mining
project and expect to have a

1130
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:20,960
secure critical mineral supply
chain.

1131
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:25,960
You also can't.
I also think on an overall

1132
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,000
basis, it's not good for the
environment either when we're

1133
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,600
we're not producing it locally.
Are we expecting to hire a

1134
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:33,600
standard locally?
And then but we're fine with

1135
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,920
buying products that are, you
know, using use Indonesia as an

1136
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,960
example.
I've got to tell the story.

1137
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:44,000
But like, I saw this guy driving
this EV saying, you know, had a

1138
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,520
big green slogan on it, which is
wonderful, but he was driving a

1139
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,680
Chinese made EV.
And I was like, mate, that EV

1140
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:55,120
has probably got the dirtiest
battery on the planet in it.

1141
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,400
You think you're doing the right
thing because you bought an EV,

1142
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,480
but little do you know how that
EV is actually made.

1143
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:03,640
And I think that's the thing
that I find needs to be resolved

1144
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,720
with regulation at some point,
you know, you, you can't have

1145
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,400
consumers buying a car thinking
they're doing the right thing by

1146
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,000
the environment where actually
that car's not being produced in

1147
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,560
the best way.
And we need to kind of close

1148
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,000
this gap between we need to
level the playing field if we

1149
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:21,120
expect our industry to to be
competitive between US and other

1150
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,360
jurisdictions.
And that's either we lower our

1151
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:24,920
standards, that's not a good
thing.

1152
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,000
So what we should be doing is
lifting the standards around

1153
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,800
what can be sold in Australia.
Maybe it should be the case that

1154
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,080
an EV that doesn't meet a
certain environmental standard

1155
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:35,320
shouldn't be allowed to be sold
here.

1156
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:39,040
And I sometimes I think I've
used this when I've done talks

1157
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:43,240
is tariffs were for me a really
missed opportunity.

1158
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:46,960
You know, you've seen 100%
tariffs on Chinese made EVs and

1159
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,200
that's just protectionism.
It's just protecting America's

1160
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,440
auto industry is protecting
Europe's auto industry.

1161
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:54,920
I actually think there was a
better way of doing it from a

1162
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:57,920
political perspective.
You could have gone, hey, our

1163
00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,760
order guys have to meet the
standard.

1164
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,800
We're not allowing them to do XY
and Z or damage the environment.

1165
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,320
XY and Z.
Until you meet that stand same

1166
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:07,000
standard, you're not allowed to
sell your product in this

1167
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:08,520
country.
And then that would have just

1168
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:10,960
lifted the global standard.
We're right now all we've done

1169
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,840
is it's a race to the bottom.
We've just gone to car

1170
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,200
manufacturers.
You have to compete with the

1171
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,360
Chinese made EV, which is really
low cost.

1172
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:20,840
So you need to go find the
cheapest form of lithium, the

1173
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:24,240
cheapest form of nickel and make
make your product in the country

1174
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,400
with the cheapest and the lowest
Labor Standards.

1175
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:28,240
And that's basically what we're
telling industry.

1176
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,720
So it's just a race to the
bottom and that needs a massive

1177
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:35,120
fix because you can't fix these
industries or protect them

1178
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,320
through protectionist
mechanisms.

1179
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:41,320
It's not going to, that is not a
strategy that can last over

1180
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:43,000
time.
You need to lift the global

1181
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:44,360
standard.
Yeah.

1182
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:48,200
I mean, I think Australia's been
so successful at mining that

1183
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,120
we're quite allergic to the idea
of any sort of government

1184
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,720
support for for mining.
I think that's it's something

1185
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,960
that's in our nature.
We don't like that just as a

1186
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:02,800
country they're not very popular
policy and it's been fine when

1187
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:04,720
we're dealing in iron ore and
gold and things.

1188
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:06,880
We've had a really huge
competitive advantage at

1189
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,120
certainly cost structures have
changed over the last decade or

1190
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,400
more.
We're at a point now where

1191
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,160
having that sort of utopian
view, like that real purest view

1192
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,440
of free markets is like, fine,
as long as we acknowledge and

1193
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,120
consciously know that we're the
only ones playing by those

1194
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:26,640
rules.
Like they're, you know, the,

1195
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:28,600
the, the countries and the
jurisdictions we're competing

1196
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:31,440
with are not, you know, we have
this problem in nickel.

1197
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,240
People like, oh, you know, the,
the, the government support for

1198
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:37,240
nickel like it's, it's
unsustainable.

1199
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:39,720
It's like companies building
projects in Indonesia are

1200
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,480
getting 15 year tax holiday.
Like if while we got a 15 year

1201
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:45,080
tax holiday, people would be in
the street with the Torchem

1202
01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:48,360
pitchfork.
So I think the role of

1203
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:50,680
government and, and this is
where I think I do agree with

1204
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:52,120
you, Travo.
It's like it's the nature of

1205
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,640
that support or those government
incentives or that government

1206
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:56,520
support.
The nature of it is very

1207
01:00:56,520 --> 01:01:01,200
important, I think, not just a
blank check forever like that

1208
01:01:01,200 --> 01:01:04,160
doesn't work.
But I think the role of

1209
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:08,040
government is to support the
development of industries that

1210
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:10,400
the free market on its own will
not for whatever reason.

1211
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,800
And now trying to unscramble
that egg is really complex, but

1212
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,160
I actually do see that as being
the role of government.

1213
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:21,520
It's to obviously facilitate an
environment where Australian

1214
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:25,800
companies can, you know, be as
competitive as possible, but

1215
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,920
then also where that free market
isn't working for whatever

1216
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:32,000
reason.
Try and implement a policy that

1217
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,880
does allow where there is a
industry of national

1218
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,440
significance it to exist.
Now there are some that we are

1219
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:42,840
willing to relinquish automobile
manufacturing, relinquish that.

1220
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,400
Are we willing to relinquish
certain other industries like I

1221
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,840
don't think we are as a country,
I don't think we're willing to

1222
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:54,040
do that.
And so I do have some sympathy

1223
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:55,320
for government.
It's hard.

1224
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,920
It's really hard.
It's not a simple, particularly

1225
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,800
in industries like rivers that
are super complex, it's not a,

1226
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:07,200
an easy fix.
But I guess I do commend their

1227
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:09,680
willingness to really lean in
and to put on creative thinking

1228
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:10,960
caps.
And even if some of those

1229
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:15,920
policies are not fully thought
out yet, you know, they are at

1230
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:17,520
least a step in the right
direction.

1231
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:21,200
And but I, but I agree with you,
it has to be, you know, it's

1232
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:22,840
not, it's not just any support,
it's good support.

1233
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:26,560
It has to be the right form.
What about the approach of

1234
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:28,560
infrastructure?
There's key bits of

1235
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,560
infrastructure that the whole
industry could benefit from

1236
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:35,360
aside from, you know, going the
much more targeted approach

1237
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,320
which they've done in the case
of any other.

1238
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:41,160
Is that something you think
about like cheap clean energy

1239
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:44,440
or, you know, bits of port
infrastructure, road

1240
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:48,320
infrastructure being developed?
Is that a spot where the

1241
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:50,120
government sort of left a bit
lacking?

1242
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:52,400
I.
Don't know if it's, yeah, I

1243
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,360
don't know if it's lacking, but
I mean, it's certainly an area

1244
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,760
that, you know, industry would
welcome support.

1245
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:02,160
You know, there's a lot of talk
about these industrial parks and

1246
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:05,880
that makes sense to me.
You know, at a high level, if,

1247
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,800
if you can go to an area that
the government's designated and

1248
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,680
said, hey, you don't have to do,
you know, three years of

1249
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:13,960
environmental approvals because
we've, we've done it all for you

1250
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:15,720
and you're allowed to do XY and
Z in this park.

1251
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:20,240
That helps, helps.
And I think we, when I was

1252
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,920
looking at the, I think the GDP
per capita growth numbers today

1253
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:27,160
in Australia, we, we have a
massive productivity problem in

1254
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:29,080
this country.
We need to be doing more.

1255
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:32,080
We need to be growing business
if we want to maintain our kind

1256
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:35,280
of living standards.
And I think government needs to

1257
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:39,240
think about policy and think
about how they do things from

1258
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:41,760
the lens of how can we be
enablers of that growth?

1259
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:47,640
It's I think the like I find
government policies and it's an

1260
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:49,560
interesting thing.
You kind of you put a, you put

1261
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,040
something in place because
you're trying to do the right

1262
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:54,120
thing.
So you have a policy that's in

1263
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,280
place, you realize it's causing
a whole lot of productivity

1264
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,880
issues and then you try and
subsidized the problem to try

1265
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:01,560
and resolve it where maybe the
fix was actually to go back to

1266
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:04,280
the drawing board on that piece
of policy that you put in place.

1267
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:08,600
So I think there's a bit of that
and that's the that is exactly

1268
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:11,720
at a lot of the time, you know,
there's been over regulation in,

1269
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,440
you know, like the prime example
is what we have in Canada where

1270
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:18,840
it was just so over regulated
mining that you basically put up

1271
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,800
a big sign to mine as to say, do
not come to Canada and do not

1272
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:24,520
build a new mine in Canada
because you'll wait 15 years to

1273
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:26,800
get a permit and get shovels in
the ground.

1274
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:29,880
Now, you know, from our project
perspective, we've done a lot of

1275
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,440
work working with the government
to say, hey, here is the

1276
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:35,360
pressure points guys, this is
what you're staring down.

1277
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:38,520
And they had the biggest wake up
call of their lives when Donald

1278
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:41,560
Trump said, Hey, we're slapping
you with, with massive tariffs

1279
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:45,680
and we're going to make you the
51st state comments, right?

1280
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,080
There's a huge wake up call for
them that they have to actually

1281
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:50,760
grow their their economy, they
have to grow their country.

1282
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:52,960
And they're doing a lot of work.
And there's a lot of good things

1283
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,120
happening in Canada to actually
be more pro development.

1284
01:04:56,120 --> 01:04:59,240
And actually being pro
development doesn't mean

1285
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:02,600
lowering standards.
It just means going back to the

1286
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:04,400
drawing board a little bit and
making sure that what you've

1287
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:07,040
actually got in place makes
sense and it's efficient because

1288
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:08,920
right now we have a system that
isn't efficient.

1289
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:11,040
There's just too much
duplication.

1290
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,560
Yeah, there's also.
Duplication of processes was the

1291
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,520
main like I think we are, I
think you'll find very many

1292
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:20,720
mining groups that are as pro
sustainability as as Wailu and I

1293
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,200
in Australia.
We are yeah, Australian mining

1294
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:25,480
companies are generally like
fantastic in that regard.

1295
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:29,680
But I think so you know, we go
in there the best of intentions

1296
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:32,480
to do to try try and develop a
truly world class project that

1297
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:35,320
will look like that will look
like a modern mining project in

1298
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:39,920
every sense of the word.
But then so the problem isn't

1299
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:42,360
that the regulations exist
because they should exist for a

1300
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:44,320
good reason, right?
There's a fairly good reason.

1301
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,320
It's just like the overlapping
duplication of policies at

1302
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:51,400
provincial level, just state
level, federal level, doing

1303
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:53,280
everything sequentially rather
than in parallel.

1304
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:57,960
I think, you know, it just meant
that the timelines for

1305
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:01,880
development are so out of whack
with the timelines for demand.

1306
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:06,080
You think, gosh, are we actually
going to be able to bring this

1307
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:09,240
online in a meaningful time
frame?

1308
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:12,320
And as you said, it was a huge
wake up call earlier this year.

1309
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:15,640
You don't have to stretch out
time months by March to

1310
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:19,640
completely erode like an IRR or
yeah.

1311
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:23,360
I mean, you can kind of see it
happening even on, you know,

1312
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:26,880
the, the move away from kind of
public sector, like not public

1313
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:29,600
sector public money, so ASX
money to more private capital

1314
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:32,120
because you've really, really
only private capital has the

1315
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:34,120
patience to be able to go
through that really long

1316
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,600
journey.
And I look, I think it's

1317
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:38,880
something that in particular
impacts our sector because they

1318
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:42,680
are so capital intensive and
they are so susceptible and so

1319
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:46,040
sensitive to timelines.
But yeah, and I look, and I

1320
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:48,600
think the one thing that I
always reflect on is like, I

1321
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:53,480
think as a nation, we've kind of
lost sight of the fact that we

1322
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:55,960
are actually world leaders in
developing projects and we're

1323
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:58,120
world leaders in from a
standards perspective.

1324
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:01,600
And I think we, we, you know, I
certainly get a lot of

1325
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:05,680
frustration is when you get a,
an EPA decision that's taken a

1326
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:07,560
really long time and a lot of
work's gone into it and then it

1327
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:09,600
gets challenged.
And it's kind of like every lost

1328
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:12,040
faith in our institutions that
everything gets challenged

1329
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:14,480
again.
And I think that cycle is really

1330
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:20,240
negative because, you know, you,
you've, yeah, I think

1331
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:23,000
bureaucrats are even scared to
make decisions because they know

1332
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:24,280
it's going to end up getting
challenged.

1333
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:27,760
So it just everything just gets
delayed because and like in

1334
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:29,960
Canada for example, when you
apply for something, they have a

1335
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:31,160
fixed time.
It's fantastic.

1336
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:33,080
It's like this, this, the
decision will be made in two

1337
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:35,080
years.
So you submit your document,

1338
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:37,360
it's 10,000 pages long.
They've made you go through a

1339
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:41,840
million hoops.
You submit it on day one year

1340
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:46,120
364, you get a reply from the
government with he has 300

1341
01:07:46,120 --> 01:07:47,200
questions that you need to
answer.

1342
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,200
And it's like you could have
told me these 300 questions two

1343
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:51,040
years ago.
I would have had the answers for

1344
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,920
you and we could have all been
moving along, but I think you've

1345
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:57,560
got this real kind of fear
factor now in bureaucrats that

1346
01:07:57,560 --> 01:08:00,560
they're really scared to be the
ones to approve a project

1347
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,760
because it might get challenged.
So for me, there's something in

1348
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:05,080
that that needs to also be
fixed.

1349
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:09,600
And and not to get too like
philosophical, but we do talk

1350
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:13,280
about this sometimes that the
public markets in the Western

1351
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,160
world, in particular in
Australia have been great for

1352
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:18,160
mining, like mining on Essex has
been wonderful.

1353
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:21,359
But sometimes we we look at it
now with in the usually

1354
01:08:21,359 --> 01:08:23,399
inflationary environment where
capital costs are through the

1355
01:08:23,399 --> 01:08:29,000
roof, it's actually a
challenging market through which

1356
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:31,960
to fund development projects
which are very, very expensive

1357
01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:37,000
and the appetite for deferred
returns or long data returns

1358
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:39,279
actually quite, quite low.
So I think it's a really

1359
01:08:39,279 --> 01:08:42,040
interesting place to be private
capital, which is, you know, how

1360
01:08:42,040 --> 01:08:45,600
I think of Wylo being private,
private for a mining company and

1361
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:49,160
then the big investment or very
active investment arm that can

1362
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:53,120
act kind of like private
capital, You know, because at at

1363
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:58,439
the moment, imagine you're an
ASX gold investor and you know,

1364
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:00,560
one of the companies you're
involved that you're invested in

1365
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:01,800
has like a big development
project.

1366
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:04,640
But I mean that Regis is a
perfect example.

1367
01:09:05,319 --> 01:09:08,080
Like Mcfillimy's getting canned
might have been good for its

1368
01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:10,319
share price.
I mean, maybe not the only thing

1369
01:09:10,319 --> 01:09:12,600
that happened around that time
that made the share price go

1370
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:14,359
through the roof, but it's like,
oh, great.

1371
01:09:14,359 --> 01:09:16,399
Well there there's a big CapEx
spill off the table.

1372
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:18,560
This thing's absolutely printing
money.

1373
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:24,120
And maybe there's easier nearer
term, lower, lower cost organic

1374
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:28,399
expansion potential here.
But in, in like critical

1375
01:09:28,399 --> 01:09:32,200
minerals, we want to bring new
supply online.

1376
01:09:33,279 --> 01:09:35,880
So it's very challenging.
It's, it's, it's like, I'm not

1377
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:37,520
sure what the answer is.
I'm not really sure I'm going

1378
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:40,600
with this, this comment, but but
like philosophically, it's quite

1379
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:45,439
it's, it's a it's, it's a
challenging environment to be

1380
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:47,640
building these critical minerals
projects.

1381
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:49,560
I do think about that quite a
bit actually.

1382
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:51,319
And the the lens.
I knew you were J Day.

1383
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:54,800
The the lens in which I think
about it is you guys have a

1384
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:59,320
relatively unique position given
the how well capitalized you are

1385
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:03,200
and the private nature.
And I think about the Superfund

1386
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:07,400
system in Australia and they
just have a fire hydrant of cash

1387
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:10,880
coming in month over month.
They have trouble deploying it.

1388
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,080
Do you think we're going to see
them starting to take asset

1389
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:17,200
stakes taking, you know they
they already take substantial

1390
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:20,960
stakes in, in mining companies,
but even longer term kind of

1391
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:25,760
thinking and other potential I
guess competitors to to you guys

1392
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:27,680
in the space?
You see it a bit in the Canadian

1393
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:29,760
market actually.
They'd be more advanced, right?

1394
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:31,400
Like the Ontario teachers?
And things like that.

1395
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:33,680
They kind of had the same issue
and then so they started taking

1396
01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:37,320
direct ownership in usually
large infrastructure projects.

1397
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:40,680
I think I think that's super
dynamic.

1398
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:43,000
There's, there's an opportunity
in that as well.

1399
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:47,960
You know, there's a you very
rarely do you see super style

1400
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:52,520
funds coming into projects early
on, you know, and helping

1401
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:55,720
develop projects.
So yeah, they, they, they've got

1402
01:10:55,720 --> 01:10:57,880
this massive, you know, funnel
that they, they're trying to

1403
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:01,200
drink from.
I think that that industry will

1404
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:03,800
evolve and you know, I think
they'll they'll be pressured to

1405
01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:06,800
deploy capital and maybe you do
see them getting involved in

1406
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:10,120
things at an earlier stage.
I think with critical minerals

1407
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:12,840
though, in like in particular,
you know, nickels, different

1408
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:17,320
coppers, different rear, it's
very difficult because no one's

1409
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:19,680
got a clear line of sight of
where prices are heading.

1410
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:22,400
So it's very hard to have a
longer term view.

1411
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:26,080
And I think even you know, I
mean, you said in that the

1412
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:28,920
commercial banks as well, unless
you can hedge something on a

1413
01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:33,120
there's a large ability to hedge
it, generally you're not seeing

1414
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:35,200
the commercial banks get
involved in funding projects.

1415
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:39,360
And this is again where I come
to my point around you've then

1416
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:41,800
seen government try to step in
as a funder, right?

1417
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:44,360
And government, this is not a
natural home for government.

1418
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:47,360
It doesn't want knife and EFA
and critical minerals funds.

1419
01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:51,520
These are not like this is not
this shouldn't be the role of

1420
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:54,720
government to fund projects, but
they've had to step in because

1421
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:56,240
the commercial banks are not
willing to do it.

1422
01:11:56,760 --> 01:12:00,120
And in within that, and this is
Joel's other favorite playground

1423
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:04,560
is even within that there's an
issue because government wants

1424
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:07,040
you to.
They'll only lend you money if

1425
01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:09,160
they can come in alongside a
commercial bank because they

1426
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:11,760
maybe they're relying on the
commercial bank to do a level of

1427
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:14,440
due diligence alongside them.
They're trying to crowd in

1428
01:12:14,440 --> 01:12:17,560
funding and I think that's so
difficult when you're going,

1429
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:20,760
hey, I want to build a rare
earth project or my nickel mine.

1430
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:24,160
Need you to have a longer term
view on price.

1431
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:26,080
The commercial banks will go, no
thank you.

1432
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:28,920
Unless you can hedge, hedge all
the cash flows and I'm not at

1433
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:31,320
risk, I'm not interested.
Then government goes, hey, if

1434
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:33,440
you find somebody to a
commercial bank to invest

1435
01:12:33,440 --> 01:12:34,600
alongside you, then we can come
in.

1436
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:36,840
You're kind of stuck in the
snowman band.

1437
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:39,680
And I think that's the reason we
haven't seen a lot of government

1438
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:41,160
funds actually going into
projects.

1439
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:44,360
This those funds are all still
sitting on billions and billions

1440
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:48,320
of dollars of taxpayer money
that hasn't really been

1441
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:49,800
deployed.
And I don't think it's been as

1442
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:51,320
effective as what the government
was hoping.

1443
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:54,720
The the evolution of the market
is so fascinating.

1444
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:57,640
Like, Andrew Forrest was one of
the first people building

1445
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:02,120
Anaconda to not go and take
commercial bank debt back in 96,

1446
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:03,800
I think.
And it was pretty unheard of

1447
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,120
going to the states, getting
bond financing.

1448
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:11,440
And in 30 years, we've got to a
place where sort of seeing banks

1449
01:13:11,440 --> 01:13:15,600
come in is like almost done.
Not unheard of, but we're

1450
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:17,680
heading that direction.
It's fascinating.

1451
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:21,080
Yeah, it is the moment.
Yes, it's funny, right?

1452
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:25,040
Like the government funding can
unlock a project to become

1453
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:27,280
finance, but that in itself is
clearly like there's an adverse

1454
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:29,600
selection problem.
Like a project needs the

1455
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:32,360
government funding piece to be
financed and it probably was

1456
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:36,960
evidently A marginal project.
Like if the the credit case is

1457
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:39,400
requires the congestion finance.
There's a bit of that, but

1458
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:42,200
there's also a bit of like these
markets are just also quite new.

1459
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:45,320
You know, I think, I think we've
seen over the last 10 years,

1460
01:13:45,480 --> 01:13:47,080
people get a lot more
comfortable with lithium.

1461
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:50,680
But in the early days of, you
know, you saw Ulbra using Nordic

1462
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:54,440
bonds to build their project
that I think is changing in the

1463
01:13:54,440 --> 01:13:56,120
lithium market.
People have definitely got a

1464
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:59,920
level of comfort around it.
I would say Ruth's are almost

1465
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:01,680
unbankable.
I don't think you'll ever get a

1466
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:04,920
commercial bank involved, you
know, too challenging for them.

1467
01:14:05,720 --> 01:14:07,480
So I think there is an
opportunity for government to

1468
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:10,760
play a role in that space.
But they need to fix the they

1469
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:12,840
need to fix those funds.
They need to think about how

1470
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:15,920
they deploy their capital.
Yeah, not to be the pro

1471
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:20,200
government guy as well, but I
think the, the, this would be

1472
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:22,240
the first time I've been accused
of that anyway in my life.

1473
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:26,360
But I, I think, I think taking
nickel as, as an example, I

1474
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:31,320
think the challenge that that
the commercial banks will have

1475
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:35,400
is, you know, they'll have fixed
policies around reserve tails on

1476
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:37,800
my life and things like that.
And if you, if you're taking, if

1477
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:40,480
you take Cambaldo, nickel is a
very specific example.

1478
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:45,360
You know, these underground high
grade ore bodies, they, they

1479
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:50,520
extend a depth So very few small
and midcap nickel mining

1480
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:52,920
companies are going to have
drilled out 20 years of my life

1481
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:54,840
surface because it's
prohibitively expensive.

1482
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:58,400
What they can point to is like a
history of replenishment at

1483
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:00,120
depth mine.
You drill from underground, you

1484
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:03,320
keep punching down South to
government's credit where where

1485
01:15:03,320 --> 01:15:05,800
some of those funds do work is
they'll say, look, we'll, we'll

1486
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:07,840
come in alongside a commercial
bank.

1487
01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:09,240
The commercial bank have a
shorter tenner.

1488
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:12,840
We can have a longer tenner, we
can have a more optimistic

1489
01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:15,200
assumptions around resource
conversion and extension.

1490
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:19,320
So I think that that is the
that's where they're trying to

1491
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:24,880
play the.
The trick is always trying to

1492
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:27,040
thread the needle by giving a
commercial bank sufficient

1493
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:32,080
certainty that it can get
through its risk committee and

1494
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:37,400
then obviously showing enough
meat on the bone for the the

1495
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:39,600
government fund to be like,
yeah, we, we can stay for, for

1496
01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:41,240
longer.
Take these optimistic

1497
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:45,600
assumptions.
So, yeah, it's, it's an evolving

1498
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:50,400
space, you know, one that we,
you know, we, we do a bit of

1499
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:52,840
work in certainly wouldn't say
experts in it, but I.

1500
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:56,040
Think yeah, another another
thing that maybe distinguishes

1501
01:15:56,040 --> 01:16:01,840
us from other groups is like,
you know, Andrew Nicola of are

1502
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:04,840
very passionate about the state
and this country.

1503
01:16:05,320 --> 01:16:07,240
And when we get involved in
these discussions with

1504
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:08,920
government, it's more than just
our projects.

1505
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:12,400
It's genuinely trying to see
Australia being able to

1506
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:15,200
participate in these industries.
So yeah.

1507
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:17,680
And I think the government,
they've, you know, to Joel's

1508
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:19,840
point, they've done a good job.
They've, you know, they've been

1509
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:22,080
creative with the way they've
thought about things.

1510
01:16:22,680 --> 01:16:26,000
But yeah, there's, you know,
it's not a, this is not an, an

1511
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:28,760
easy nut to crack.
It's quite a complex complex

1512
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:30,920
space.
You guys ready to go

1513
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:32,480
introspective?
Yep.

1514
01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:35,520
Even more.
Yeah, it's got very

1515
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:36,760
philosophical.
I thought we were just going to

1516
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:40,440
talk about Greatland.
It's a lot of dream in here.

1517
01:16:40,440 --> 01:16:47,240
Hey, that's Trav.
Why are we meant to be a minor

1518
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:49,040
or a strategic investor in
minors?

1519
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:53,080
I think we're a bit of both,
yeah.

1520
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:56,040
You know, I think as I said
before, you know, we're we're

1521
01:16:56,040 --> 01:17:00,440
set up to do both now and I
think that puts us in a unique

1522
01:17:00,440 --> 01:17:02,720
position.
I think when I look at the

1523
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:05,600
portfolio now, I always say this
to Joel, we've almost got the

1524
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:07,160
opposite problem of every other
mine.

1525
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:10,800
We've we've got too much growth.
You know, we've got an awesome

1526
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:14,240
project in Ring of Fire, We've
got Cam holder that we'll bring

1527
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:16,920
back online at some point.
And then we've got obviously a

1528
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:18,560
rear project that we're trying
to build as well.

1529
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:23,080
I think, yeah, I think we're,
we're both, I think we're always

1530
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:26,760
going to have an element of
investing and we we're going to

1531
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:30,360
have Andrew's passion and, and
where he really made his fortune

1532
01:17:30,360 --> 01:17:33,600
was being a good operator and
having that, you know, that,

1533
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:36,640
that culture that he created at
Fortescue is really what we try

1534
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:39,480
to bring to assets.
So I think we'll always have an

1535
01:17:39,480 --> 01:17:42,040
element of of both.
Yeah, absolutely.

1536
01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:45,680
I I think that obviously our,
you know two of our three

1537
01:17:45,680 --> 01:17:46,920
projects in nickel mines at the
moment.

1538
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,000
So it's sort of hard to say
like, oh, we're operators.

1539
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:51,320
So obviously it's a challenging
time for nickel, but that I

1540
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:54,000
think is in the DNA of the whole
organization and and we'll never

1541
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:57,240
change like we are not
investment only fund.

1542
01:17:57,320 --> 01:17:59,200
Having said that, and I'm
obviously going to say this

1543
01:17:59,200 --> 01:18:02,400
because I manage the investments
team, like I think that what are

1544
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:05,320
we really good at?
The Greylin example is a is a

1545
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:08,320
perfect, perfect illustration of
what we're good at is when there

1546
01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:13,360
is, you know, some sort of event
driven transaction, we can come

1547
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:15,160
in and really put our shoulder
to the wheel.

1548
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:19,720
As you know, a well financed
group with commercial and

1549
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:25,080
technical capability and, and,
and you know, underwrite or or

1550
01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:28,320
through very many flexible
funding structures, you know,

1551
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:30,520
bring a new project into
production, whether it's

1552
01:18:30,520 --> 01:18:32,640
ourselves or whether it's
financial support for another

1553
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:34,680
group like we've done with
Griteland, whether it's in

1554
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:37,520
partnership like a joint venture
with Hastings on your Gibana.

1555
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:41,840
Like I do think that that is our
yeah, I think that you know,

1556
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:47,760
really leaning into projects
that we like with the full kind

1557
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:48,920
of weight of the group behind
us.

1558
01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:53,440
I think it's what is sort of
while at its best, you know,

1559
01:18:53,440 --> 01:18:57,920
strategically, is it helpful,
you know, if we were buying

1560
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:01,800
something on market, do these
guys want to own it or is this

1561
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:04,040
just a investment play?
Like that actually is quite a

1562
01:19:04,040 --> 01:19:07,800
strategic advantage for us.
But I would say that like that

1563
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:10,680
is not really a consideration
99.9% of the time.

1564
01:19:11,080 --> 01:19:14,960
Normally we've got a pretty
clear idea internally of, you

1565
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:16,320
know, what we're what we're
doing.

1566
01:19:17,360 --> 01:19:19,040
So yeah, it's both, both of
those I think.

1567
01:19:19,480 --> 01:19:21,840
What is the the future of green
premiums?

1568
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:29,400
I actually really resent being
associated with the term big

1569
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:31,840
premium.
We've become, you know, I think

1570
01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:33,560
Rusty is still the poster boy.
Yeah, he is.

1571
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:35,560
He's.
Mr. Price, Bifurcation.

1572
01:19:35,560 --> 01:19:37,280
He's Mr. Price.
Bifurcation, look, I know I

1573
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:39,520
think I'm probably more in a
little bit more in his camp as

1574
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:41,400
well.
And it comes back to our earlier

1575
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:43,080
comments.
I think there is such a big

1576
01:19:43,080 --> 01:19:46,960
standards difference between how
we're mining in Australia versus

1577
01:19:47,000 --> 01:19:50,840
how Nichols getting mined in
Indonesia and at some point that

1578
01:19:50,840 --> 01:19:53,040
needs to be fixed.
So I don't think it's a green

1579
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:55,600
premium that's voluntary that
someone's going to put their

1580
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:58,280
hand up and say, hey, I'm going
to pay more than my competitor

1581
01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:01,120
for the same thing.
I think it will become something

1582
01:20:01,120 --> 01:20:04,320
that's regulatory driven.
And I think we see it in C bam

1583
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:08,440
rules we saw at the G7, they're
talking about a standards driven

1584
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:11,680
regulation around critical
minerals.

1585
01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:15,840
So I think it's, it's not so
much a yeah, like a voluntary

1586
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:18,040
premium, it's more a regulatory
driven.

1587
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:20,560
Yeah, bifurcation.
Or, or it becomes like a point

1588
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:25,000
of differentiation like I have
some, you know, I think I can

1589
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:29,120
empathize with electric vehicle
manufacturers that are, you

1590
01:20:29,120 --> 01:20:32,640
know, say you're a Western EV
manufacturer, you're like pay

1591
01:20:32,640 --> 01:20:34,440
more for these metals because
they're green.

1592
01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:36,920
It's like, hang on a second.
I can barely turn a margin as it

1593
01:20:36,920 --> 01:20:38,920
is.
And I'm competing against, you

1594
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:40,680
know, Chinese electric vehicles
that are produced at a much

1595
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:42,520
lower cost.
So no, I will not be paying more

1596
01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:46,480
for the inputs.
I think over time, as you know,

1597
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:50,320
costs get closer to parity, then
it starts becoming a point of

1598
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:54,560
differentiation.
The challenge then becomes how

1599
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:57,880
can you differentiate?
Can you point to some

1600
01:20:58,040 --> 01:21:02,080
international auditable standard
that says X percent of the

1601
01:21:02,600 --> 01:21:05,720
materials in this battery meet
this standard?

1602
01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:09,360
And I think that's where groups
like LME are getting to, trying

1603
01:21:09,360 --> 01:21:14,480
to working with industry to say,
you know, here is a agreed set

1604
01:21:14,480 --> 01:21:17,800
of criteria that meet this
threshold, these materials that

1605
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:21,360
meet this threshold right here.
There's no requirement to buy on

1606
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:22,840
that exchange.
There's no requirement to buy on

1607
01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:24,880
that index.
But I do think that over time,

1608
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:28,080
the two big changes would be 1,
differentiation and two,

1609
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:33,080
regulation, green premium,
security premium, sustainability

1610
01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:34,960
premium, whatever you want to
call it.

1611
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:40,280
I think that, you know, everyone
will mock it until it happens,

1612
01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:42,680
but it has happened, like I used
the Gallium example earlier,

1613
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:46,800
like it has happened when you
have to pay extra to get it from

1614
01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:48,920
somewhere because you can't get
it from the other place.

1615
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:55,000
That's how premiums emerge.
So yeah, I mean, I think that I

1616
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:56,840
don't think it happens next
week.

1617
01:21:56,840 --> 01:21:58,080
What do you guys think?
Yeah.

1618
01:21:58,160 --> 01:22:00,880
The bigger question and we just
we just commentate like.

1619
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:05,640
I think you, I think you said it
really well.

1620
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:10,040
I think it's very hard when it's
already higher cost to do stuff

1621
01:22:10,040 --> 01:22:14,440
in the West to to have that.
And I think whatever shape it

1622
01:22:14,440 --> 01:22:16,760
takes, it's got to be some sort
of mandated policy.

1623
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:17,880
That's the only way it's going
to happen.

1624
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:22,760
The the the cases where it's
consumer LED a too few and far

1625
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:27,200
between and even when cost of
living kind of crisis, right.

1626
01:22:27,200 --> 01:22:28,720
And that's not changing anytime
soon.

1627
01:22:28,800 --> 01:22:31,680
Even when it is like government
mandated, like I do think

1628
01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:34,920
there's complications to the
extent that commodities, you

1629
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:39,400
know, yeah.
And like look at the tracking

1630
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:44,520
that does happen to it's like
tantalum in in Rwanda, DRC or

1631
01:22:44,520 --> 01:22:46,880
whatever.
And, and they like there's,

1632
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:48,920
there's, there's, there's,
there's actually quite stringent

1633
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:51,320
processes to track where things
have come from and traders have

1634
01:22:51,320 --> 01:22:53,360
to be compliant through that all
along the way, etcetera,

1635
01:22:53,360 --> 01:22:55,640
etcetera.
But what happens is the the

1636
01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:59,040
coltan and yeah, so it just gets
blended with the coltan in, in

1637
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:01,680
Rwanda and you get the threshold
and there's some trader that has

1638
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:04,400
like less stringent standards
and it goes by then because I

1639
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:07,120
just think like the extent
commodities are fungible and

1640
01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:10,840
there are ways to blend and
navigate via kind of those.

1641
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,040
Yeah, those kind of channels.
It will always happen.

1642
01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:15,640
And that makes the premium very
tricky.

1643
01:23:15,720 --> 01:23:17,440
Very tricky.
And I think that's why you do

1644
01:23:17,480 --> 01:23:21,320
see mining companies wanting to
move further downstream, like

1645
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:23,840
moving mining companies moving
further downstream has been like

1646
01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:25,360
a recipe for disaster for
decades.

1647
01:23:25,360 --> 01:23:28,400
But I think one of the ideas is
that, well, if I can own, if I

1648
01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:30,720
can own this beyond it being a
commoditized product, if I can

1649
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:34,480
produce like a wallow widget and
then I can market that, then

1650
01:23:34,480 --> 01:23:36,040
I've got a premium for that.
But like you said, if I'm

1651
01:23:36,040 --> 01:23:37,760
producing A commodity that's
going to get blended with that

1652
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:43,800
commodity and some trader makes
their money by that opaque, you

1653
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:45,720
know, by buying from here, buy
from here, mixing insight into

1654
01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:47,960
that guy.
And you know, that's that's

1655
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:49,920
always gonna be really hard.
So I think that's why you do see

1656
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:52,880
groups trying to, you know, have
more direct relationship with

1657
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:55,680
their customers.
I think we've been too lenient

1658
01:23:55,680 --> 01:23:58,680
on supply chains just in
general, like right, yeah, I

1659
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:02,400
mean, traders have thrived on
that ambiguity videos yeah.

1660
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:06,320
And I think, yeah, look, I don't
know where we're we're heading,

1661
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:09,640
but it's quite a sad reality
because, you know, if we're

1662
01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:11,800
serious about climate change and
we're serious about all these

1663
01:24:11,800 --> 01:24:13,800
things, we can't have that race
to the bottom.

1664
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:15,880
We can't just meet the minimum
standard.

1665
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:19,240
And, and that's acceptable.
Like we really have to as a, and

1666
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:21,400
this is the sad thing.
It's like we need like globally

1667
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:24,640
as a people, we need to put our
differences aside and agree that

1668
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:27,000
looking after the planets
important and we should be

1669
01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:28,360
meeting a standard.
And right now we're not.

1670
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:29,480
Yeah.
We're just, I mean, I guess that

1671
01:24:29,480 --> 01:24:31,560
point I made earlier is that
like we should be doing that,

1672
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:33,680
but then ultimately, like people
are incentivized by like.

1673
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:35,360
Yeah, there's always one way
we're going to cheat the.

1674
01:24:35,360 --> 01:24:37,360
System, Yeah.
Prisoner's dilemma, right?

1675
01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:39,120
It's like.
You're not winning any friends

1676
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:40,360
in Switzerland right now with
those.

1677
01:24:40,480 --> 01:24:43,960
Sorts of comments, that's right.
One other thing I've been

1678
01:24:43,960 --> 01:24:47,840
thinking about a bunch, and you
guys spoke about this years ago

1679
01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:51,680
in the context of the Ring of
Fire is a mine of the future.

1680
01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:53,840
And this could be a whole, a
whole podcast.

1681
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:58,080
But designing a mine from the
very beginning to be, you know,

1682
01:24:58,120 --> 01:25:01,800
in, in the, the way in which the
world is moving, autonomous and

1683
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:04,960
all these sorts of things.
Like, do you think about that

1684
01:25:05,240 --> 01:25:06,840
much?
I know you still need to go

1685
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:08,880
through a lot of the, the
permitting and these sorts of

1686
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:13,280
things and the the process in
Canada, but I think there's like

1687
01:25:13,280 --> 01:25:15,480
the, the future is quite crazy
to think about in that.

1688
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:18,280
Yeah.
Yeah, I think like one thing I

1689
01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:20,640
will say as much as we've had an
exciting year with Great London

1690
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:23,160
and Neo and Hastings, like
Canada's actually been our kind

1691
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:27,240
of unsung hero really going well
there for us from a permitting

1692
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:29,560
perspective.
We're just about to finish a

1693
01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:33,040
feasibility study on Eagle's
nest in terms of that kind of

1694
01:25:33,040 --> 01:25:37,760
mind to future dynamic.
I actually think it kind of, you

1695
01:25:37,760 --> 01:25:40,520
know, when we took it, took it
over, we set ourselves and this

1696
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:45,440
is this is this comes from our
chairman, really the stretch

1697
01:25:45,440 --> 01:25:48,280
target of making this the
greenest mine that we possibly

1698
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:51,280
could.
And I think having the benefit

1699
01:25:51,280 --> 01:25:54,360
of going into it with that
mentality from the beginning, we

1700
01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:57,400
really push the limits of like
what we're trying to do with

1701
01:25:57,400 --> 01:25:59,880
equals nest.
Now I can tell you now with that

1702
01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:02,080
mine, it's going to have a
footprint of one square

1703
01:26:02,080 --> 01:26:03,800
kilometer.
I remind everyone that's like a

1704
01:26:04,360 --> 01:26:07,720
little strip mall in Perth.
It's not this is a tiny little

1705
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:10,160
mine.
We've been able to keep that

1706
01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:13,960
footprint really small.
Mining technologies come a long

1707
01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:15,960
way.
We've we're able to electrify

1708
01:26:15,960 --> 01:26:17,960
everything.
This is a mine that goes really

1709
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:20,880
deep.
It goes to 1.4km deep on our

1710
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:24,000
inferred resource.
We want to keep our ventilation

1711
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:27,320
as minimal as possible.
So going electric really made

1712
01:26:27,320 --> 01:26:30,200
sense for us.
So I think, you know, we had

1713
01:26:30,200 --> 01:26:31,520
that ambition from the
beginning.

1714
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:34,120
It really challenged us.
And I think it's one of those

1715
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:37,320
times where that kind of stretch
target or that challenge

1716
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:39,920
actually resulted in a very,
very good outcome for us because

1717
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:43,400
the way the mine is going to get
set up, this thing will be super

1718
01:26:43,400 --> 01:26:46,760
low cost for its whole 17 year
mine life.

1719
01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:49,760
So the deeper we go,
everything's on conveyors and

1720
01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:53,360
shafts, it's really low cost
even though we're getting quite

1721
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:56,840
deep where if we had taken maybe
a typical W Australian approach

1722
01:26:56,840 --> 01:27:00,280
which was coming, smash and grab
truck and shovel, just get it

1723
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:01,600
out the ground as quickly as
possible.

1724
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:03,000
Your Ness is really high grade
at the surface.

1725
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:04,120
It's like beautiful getting
there.

1726
01:27:04,120 --> 01:27:04,440
Get it?
Out.

1727
01:27:04,440 --> 01:27:05,920
Get it, get it out.
Cash flow.

1728
01:27:05,960 --> 01:27:07,040
Quickly as you can for the
model.

1729
01:27:07,320 --> 01:27:10,320
You'll pay, you'll pay the price
in the future because it just

1730
01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:12,080
starts to get expensive as
you're getting deeper, so.

1731
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:14,880
The problem then is like you,
you stop being resilient to to

1732
01:27:15,240 --> 01:27:18,160
local like that'd be great in a
so nickel ribs beautiful.

1733
01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:19,960
Let's get in there.
Let's start mining it.

1734
01:27:20,480 --> 01:27:23,440
And then ten years down down the
track, you hit another through

1735
01:27:23,440 --> 01:27:25,600
in the nickel price.
All of a sudden that's not

1736
01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:28,080
resilient and then you have to
switch it off.

1737
01:27:28,120 --> 01:27:31,120
And which has been the problem
with Western nickel ones around

1738
01:27:31,120 --> 01:27:35,200
the world, whereas in designer
in such a way that that that is

1739
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:38,000
resilient to those price swings.
Once that study's done, been an

1740
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:42,280
exciting one to to share because
it's it'll be a very unique set

1741
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:46,160
up the way we got that mine set
up and it will be ultra low

1742
01:27:46,160 --> 01:27:47,680
cost.
I think you know it'll be first

1743
01:27:47,680 --> 01:27:50,360
quartile, but not a long way.
And some of the interesting like

1744
01:27:50,360 --> 01:27:53,920
technical things like
underground tiling, storage, you

1745
01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:58,400
know, these are all relatively
small things and, and in some

1746
01:27:58,400 --> 01:28:01,160
cases existing technologies that
are being adapted or refined

1747
01:28:01,160 --> 01:28:03,400
slightly.
But you know, the, the trend is

1748
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:06,480
only going one way with mining,
which is, you know, it's, it's

1749
01:28:06,480 --> 01:28:08,280
getting more difficult to do
things.

1750
01:28:09,400 --> 01:28:11,560
You know, there are more and
more environmental concerns,

1751
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:16,360
usually for very good reason.
So, you know, to the extent that

1752
01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:22,400
we can improve upon Pioneer be
the showcase for as I said, you

1753
01:28:22,480 --> 01:28:25,880
know, the, the attitude towards
having a surface tailing storage

1754
01:28:25,880 --> 01:28:29,120
facility in a really remote
location that's very sensitive

1755
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:32,760
ecosystem is pretty low.
So having, you know, underground

1756
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:37,080
tailing storage is, you know,
not a brand new concept, but

1757
01:28:37,080 --> 01:28:39,080
proving it up and deploying it
at scale.

1758
01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:41,040
I think it'd be really, really
interesting and it could be like

1759
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:43,800
a piece of infrastructure of
regional significance as well.

1760
01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:46,920
So that's something that we're
really excited about that our

1761
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:48,400
Canadian team's done a great job
of.

1762
01:28:49,480 --> 01:28:52,560
And yeah, look forward to sort
of sharing a bit more about that

1763
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:54,400
in the future as as that study
wraps up.

1764
01:28:54,680 --> 01:28:58,880
Is is in?
Is a wildly IPO inevitable?

1765
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:01,880
A long enough timeframe.
Look, I think if you look at our

1766
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:04,280
portfolio, we've got a few
billion dollars of CapEx coming

1767
01:29:04,280 --> 01:29:04,880
down the line.
Yeah.

1768
01:29:06,200 --> 01:29:10,080
So look, I wouldn't put it out
of the realm of the possible.

1769
01:29:10,840 --> 01:29:13,000
I think the one thing that we're
doing which is good is we're

1770
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:15,720
kind of wearing that really
risky period for shareholders

1771
01:29:16,680 --> 01:29:18,840
and that obviously creates a lot
of value for us as well.

1772
01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:22,400
And you know that's what we're
certainly doing in Canada.

1773
01:29:22,400 --> 01:29:24,640
It's the way we're thinking
about Cam Boulder as well.

1774
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:27,280
You know, we're we're weathering
this down cycle.

1775
01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:31,800
We're working on how we're going
to process our material at some

1776
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:32,760
point.
It could be interesting.

1777
01:29:32,760 --> 01:29:37,840
And you know, I think for me
Eagle's nest is it's it's a

1778
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:40,720
world class mine, but ring of
fight that, you know, we're

1779
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:45,760
sitting on what is it 7-7 all
bodies out there, all very

1780
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:48,160
developable.
That's a word developable.

1781
01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:51,640
Yeah.
And I think for us, like, you

1782
01:29:51,640 --> 01:29:54,760
know, Eagle's Nest is kind of
the first cab off off the rank

1783
01:29:54,760 --> 01:29:57,520
and yeah, just this amazing
mineral basin.

1784
01:29:57,520 --> 01:29:59,000
And then you kind of got
Cambalda.

1785
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:03,040
We're actually quite uniquely
placed in the nickel sector.

1786
01:30:03,040 --> 01:30:07,120
We've got a Nova style asset
which survives kind of peaks and

1787
01:30:07,120 --> 01:30:10,000
troughs that'll be Eagle's Nest
to mine that you'll probably

1788
01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:11,960
never switch off and you'll just
wear the cycles.

1789
01:30:12,440 --> 01:30:15,160
Then we've got an asset in
Cambalda which is really cheap

1790
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:19,000
to switch off and easy to switch
back on that you bring on when

1791
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:21,680
the cycle's really good.
So we're kind of playing the

1792
01:30:21,680 --> 01:30:23,800
nickel game in two different
ways.

1793
01:30:23,800 --> 01:30:25,560
And I think that's quite unique
exposure.

1794
01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:28,960
And you know, right now it's a
tough soul in nickel, but

1795
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:31,600
there'll come a time where
nickel will be going well again

1796
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:33,240
and people will be looking for
that.

1797
01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:34,800
And where do you find it in the
market?

1798
01:30:34,800 --> 01:30:36,240
You can't really get nickel
exposure.

1799
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:39,800
Yeah, I mean, I'm looking at the
Lausanne curve on, on JD shirt

1800
01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:44,040
and I think that like the, you
know, there's a period in with a

1801
01:30:44,040 --> 01:30:48,200
big project like Eagles sort of
complex and and takes a lot of

1802
01:30:48,200 --> 01:30:50,560
permitting and studies.
There's a period where it's

1803
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:52,120
great to be private.
It's a period that we're in

1804
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:54,160
right now.
It's deeply, deeply unsexy.

1805
01:30:54,640 --> 01:30:56,960
Not a lot.
Of study with a CapEx number?

1806
01:30:56,960 --> 01:30:58,320
Right.
It's like, you know, there's,

1807
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:01,000
you know, we, we can't, we've
got exciting news to put out

1808
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:03,000
every quarter around Eagles
Nest, right.

1809
01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:07,320
And I used to joke that like if
you could privatize every mining

1810
01:31:07,320 --> 01:31:09,240
asset at this point and it's
cycle, you would because you can

1811
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:11,400
just diligently go about the
work without worrying about the

1812
01:31:11,400 --> 01:31:13,400
next quarterly having some great
announcement, having to raise a

1813
01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:17,400
bit of money to keep going.
So it, you know, we're talking

1814
01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:19,400
earlier about all the benefits
of being private and there are a

1815
01:31:19,400 --> 01:31:22,200
lot of them, you know.
But having said that, yeah,

1816
01:31:22,960 --> 01:31:25,280
possibly that's something that
we sort of have spoken about.

1817
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:27,880
I think that it's a we're
assembling a really interesting

1818
01:31:27,880 --> 01:31:33,200
portfolio of assets.
We've got the ability to to, you

1819
01:31:33,200 --> 01:31:35,920
know, move kind of cyclically to
move pro cyclically.

1820
01:31:35,920 --> 01:31:40,440
And yeah, we are establishing a
interesting portfolio, whether

1821
01:31:40,440 --> 01:31:42,400
you do it for the whole group,
whether you do it for some parts

1822
01:31:42,400 --> 01:31:45,160
of the group.
Yeah, we, we talk about, but

1823
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:47,600
certainly at the moment with a
big project like Eagles, it's a

1824
01:31:48,160 --> 01:31:50,440
great time to be private.
This means that you can.

1825
01:31:51,480 --> 01:31:54,000
How often do we see, I mean, you
guys talk about it on your show

1826
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:57,840
all the time.
How often do you see corporate

1827
01:31:57,840 --> 01:32:01,160
actions, corporate decisions
that are made that are long term

1828
01:32:01,160 --> 01:32:05,000
value destructive, But, but just
to make some near term

1829
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:08,400
objective, like it's so common
that you show me the incentive,

1830
01:32:08,400 --> 01:32:11,640
I'll show the outcome.
And, and, you know, I think one

1831
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:13,880
of the good things about being
private is that we can keep our

1832
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:15,360
head down.
We can do things diligently.

1833
01:32:15,360 --> 01:32:18,400
We can do them in ways that are
going to unlock the greatest

1834
01:32:18,400 --> 01:32:21,720
long term value.
And we have seen that at a

1835
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:25,040
really granular level when we
have, you know, come into

1836
01:32:25,040 --> 01:32:27,240
companies and, and, and change
the way things are done.

1837
01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:28,560
Like, why was this being done
like this?

1838
01:32:29,160 --> 01:32:32,200
He realizes because it
accelerates things, it brings

1839
01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:35,480
forward cash flow or, or we
didn't have the money to do that

1840
01:32:35,480 --> 01:32:37,400
or we couldn't justify the
budget to do that.

1841
01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:41,240
So yeah, there's a, there's a
great benefit to being private

1842
01:32:41,240 --> 01:32:43,600
at certain times.
It's a great benefit to being

1843
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:45,440
public at certain times.
So I think it's just about

1844
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:47,560
assessing that on its merits as
we move forward.

1845
01:32:49,520 --> 01:32:50,800
Awesome guys, would you buy an?
Answer.

1846
01:32:50,800 --> 01:32:57,160
You want some of those warrants.
I'll buy someone at private now

1847
01:32:57,160 --> 01:32:58,360
and then.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1848
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:00,720
And I just realized that.
Yeah.

1849
01:33:00,920 --> 01:33:02,120
Paper gain of some sort.
Yeah, yeah.

1850
01:33:02,880 --> 01:33:04,560
Should we finish up with an
underrated overrated?

1851
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:06,200
Oh.
You guys ready?

1852
01:33:06,200 --> 01:33:08,120
We haven't done this in quite
some time, so.

1853
01:33:08,160 --> 01:33:10,160
I'm nervous.
We have to get creative.

1854
01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:14,840
One sentence or whatever sort of
comes to mind can can be your

1855
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:17,200
response and we'll go back and
forth a bit.

1856
01:33:18,360 --> 01:33:21,440
Underrated overrated WA Hard
Rock lithium.

1857
01:33:21,440 --> 01:33:25,840
Projects.
No.

1858
01:33:26,040 --> 01:33:26,400
I'm.
Not sure.

1859
01:33:26,400 --> 01:33:27,880
I have.
I'm not sure.

1860
01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:29,600
Oh my gosh, maybe a billion
dollar question.

1861
01:33:29,600 --> 01:33:30,840
You should have warmed warmed us
up.

1862
01:33:30,880 --> 01:33:32,680
Come on, I.
Think underrated, I think.

1863
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:36,520
Look, I think our perspective on
it is underrated.

1864
01:33:36,520 --> 01:33:39,000
I think until you see like the
LE really finding its traps,

1865
01:33:39,000 --> 01:33:41,080
it's.
I'm going to go with a soft

1866
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:44,320
underrated call.
I feel like Lithium is, there's

1867
01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:47,000
a few things in lithium that
are, this is not only one

1868
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:51,960
sentence answer that could be
quite binary that I definitely

1869
01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:56,400
don't understand well enough,
but I I would say underrated on

1870
01:33:56,400 --> 01:33:57,880
the basis I think it's all been
hit too hard.

1871
01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:03,720
Vanadium.
I have a soft spot for vanadium.

1872
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:06,720
I'm going to say underrated.
I'm going to say underrated.

1873
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:12,480
Vanadium flow batteries are not
a novel or new technology.

1874
01:34:12,480 --> 01:34:15,320
They're used around the world.
I think that they have a

1875
01:34:15,320 --> 01:34:17,560
compelling use case.
Australia.

1876
01:34:18,840 --> 01:34:21,240
Yeah, underrated.
I think we haven't seen that

1877
01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:23,880
tech really found its, yeah,
found its feet yet.

1878
01:34:25,080 --> 01:34:30,600
PGM operations I'll.
Let the South African answer

1879
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:32,720
this one.
I think, I think huge kind of

1880
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:36,360
headwinds there and I think
still a huge use case for PGS

1881
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:38,800
and everyone's kind of written
it off too early.

1882
01:34:38,800 --> 01:34:41,480
Yeah.
I, I think that the byproduct

1883
01:34:41,480 --> 01:34:45,240
nature of PGM production is sort
of a complicating factor, but

1884
01:34:45,640 --> 01:34:50,960
we're certainly seeing
disruption in that market that

1885
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:53,040
make it.
Under Eagles Eagles Nest is 5g

1886
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:55,760
per ton PGS.
So just a, just a, just a that's

1887
01:34:55,760 --> 01:34:56,120
under.
Added.

1888
01:34:59,480 --> 01:35:02,040
Royalties.
Owning them or paying them?

1889
01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:05,880
Owning them, underrated.
Buying them overrated.

1890
01:35:09,600 --> 01:35:11,520
That's an easy one look, I
think.

1891
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:14,560
We're on the.
I'm put you on the wrong side of

1892
01:35:14,560 --> 01:35:15,040
them.
Yeah.

1893
01:35:15,040 --> 01:35:16,320
So yeah.
Overrated.

1894
01:35:16,360 --> 01:35:17,520
Yeah, yeah.
Fair enough.

1895
01:35:17,680 --> 01:35:19,760
I mean, you can, maybe you can
buy some like, Yeah.

1896
01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:22,160
Yeah.
I mean, look, I think that like

1897
01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:25,840
all sources of capital that have
a have a use, but they can be

1898
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:28,040
absolute killers and have been
an absolute.

1899
01:35:28,320 --> 01:35:30,040
What you hate to see is a
project that should get up that

1900
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:31,080
doesn't because it's royalty on
it.

1901
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:34,400
Say overrated cuz everyone has
this idea that they're not

1902
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:36,560
dilutionary, but they are the
most dilutionary thing you could

1903
01:35:36,560 --> 01:35:41,080
possibly do to your mind, yeah.
Another commodity 1 graphite.

1904
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:43,560
Overrated.
Overrated.

1905
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:45,800
Yeah.
It's funny because it's I don't

1906
01:35:45,800 --> 01:35:47,000
think it's rated too highly and
it's.

1907
01:35:47,120 --> 01:35:52,000
No, Yeah, yeah, probably rated.
Probably rated, Yeah, rated.

1908
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:54,040
Just tough, tough.
And that's not, that's not a

1909
01:35:54,040 --> 01:35:56,960
knock on anyone.
I find out a very, very complex

1910
01:35:56,960 --> 01:36:02,080
commodity, the natural synthetic
interplay.

1911
01:36:02,120 --> 01:36:04,120
I think it's really challenging.
I I think that there are some

1912
01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:07,200
interesting pockets, though
having said that, there's some

1913
01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:11,760
really interesting pockets.
I think again you can, if you

1914
01:36:11,760 --> 01:36:14,360
can differentiate so that you'll
just do selling commoditized

1915
01:36:14,360 --> 01:36:15,440
product.
I think it's interesting.

1916
01:36:16,360 --> 01:36:18,560
Private equity like to mining.
Like to mining.

1917
01:36:18,600 --> 01:36:22,280
I know your answer I.
Think it's for me, it's

1918
01:36:22,280 --> 01:36:23,080
overrated.
Yeah.

1919
01:36:24,520 --> 01:36:28,120
Just these are, yeah, mining is
long dated and it's even these

1920
01:36:28,120 --> 01:36:31,120
funds with longer lives really
struggle to do what they have to

1921
01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:32,920
do in the time frame they have.
Yeah.

1922
01:36:32,920 --> 01:36:35,720
I mean, it's the mismatch of of
fun timelines with mine

1923
01:36:35,720 --> 01:36:38,760
development timelines, which I
think can be really challenging.

1924
01:36:38,760 --> 01:36:41,800
You can see funds, they might
really like a project having to

1925
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:44,080
sell their position because
their funds closing even though

1926
01:36:44,240 --> 01:36:50,400
they still like the exposure.
The the growth of battery energy

1927
01:36:50,400 --> 01:36:52,400
storage systems.
Stationary batteries.

1928
01:36:54,960 --> 01:37:00,320
I think underrated, I think, I
think we're moving into a really

1929
01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:06,120
difficult energy period where
we're consuming so much energy

1930
01:37:06,280 --> 01:37:10,280
for AI technology reasons.
And I don't think we have a

1931
01:37:10,280 --> 01:37:12,080
solution for where we're going
to find this energy.

1932
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:15,920
And we have too much conflict at
a political level.

1933
01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:17,080
Yeah.
Right.

1934
01:37:17,080 --> 01:37:18,720
Right.
Corporate rights.

1935
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:22,240
Underrated, right?
Fun.

1936
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:27,560
By the flag.
Overrated because they're much

1937
01:37:27,560 --> 01:37:29,440
harder to deal with than you
think.

1938
01:37:29,800 --> 01:37:33,080
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it depends what you're

1939
01:37:33,080 --> 01:37:34,800
doing them for.
You just try and make money.

1940
01:37:34,840 --> 01:37:42,400
I mean, we were that close to
absolute stonker so.

1941
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:43,560
Why are they harder than you
think?

1942
01:37:44,440 --> 01:37:46,160
Because I mean, like, you never
see them.

1943
01:37:46,400 --> 01:37:50,000
Yeah, that's actually the 80s.
Yeah, I mean, I think that

1944
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:55,000
there's also not a great
willingness to do it because it

1945
01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:56,840
makes you deeply unpopular.
I.

1946
01:37:58,440 --> 01:38:01,640
Think picking up the pieces is
what's challenging afterwards.

1947
01:38:01,800 --> 01:38:07,320
So it's, yeah, just it's
challenging better ways of doing

1948
01:38:07,320 --> 01:38:08,400
things.
Yeah, I think so.

1949
01:38:08,400 --> 01:38:10,080
I mean the Regis example is a
good one.

1950
01:38:10,080 --> 01:38:14,720
I think it assumes naturally
that you like don't write the

1951
01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:16,200
company or management or
something like that.

1952
01:38:16,200 --> 01:38:19,240
And in that case it's like this
is value.

1953
01:38:19,320 --> 01:38:21,680
That's funny how like people's
brain go because my, yeah, my,

1954
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:25,520
like my, my, my thoughts is just
like, you want to execute like

1955
01:38:25,640 --> 01:38:28,600
very quickly at a set price and
you think there's a discrete

1956
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:30,520
window to do that.
Yeah, that was it.

1957
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:33,640
How about the hype around hybrid
vehicles?

1958
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:36,840
Rated overrated.
He's got a strong view, but I go

1959
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:39,400
he's got a very strong view, as
you can tell.

1960
01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:42,520
I say I say overrated as well.
I think overrated, massively

1961
01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:44,520
overrated.
I think I, I totally understand

1962
01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:48,720
why they are attractive right
now, but I think that who's the

1963
01:38:48,720 --> 01:38:51,880
example of it being a sailing
boat with a steam engine or

1964
01:38:51,920 --> 01:38:53,880
steam engine with a with sails
on it.

1965
01:38:53,960 --> 01:38:58,480
I think that like ultimately you
don't want to hedge your bets.

1966
01:38:58,480 --> 01:39:01,480
You don't want the worst of both
worlds, best of something.

1967
01:39:01,480 --> 01:39:04,440
But I I understand that in
certain countries where

1968
01:39:04,440 --> 01:39:08,320
infrastructure is currently
where it is, it's a useful

1969
01:39:08,320 --> 01:39:10,560
product for right now, but I
don't want.

1970
01:39:10,760 --> 01:39:13,800
One, I think battery tech gets
so good that you don't need that

1971
01:39:14,120 --> 01:39:16,880
really long stepping mileage.
And I think if you talk to

1972
01:39:16,880 --> 01:39:20,040
mechanics that hate working on
them because it's just like the

1973
01:39:20,040 --> 01:39:22,160
worst of both worlds.
Yeah, you got everything jammed

1974
01:39:22,160 --> 01:39:23,520
in.
You got both technologies jammed

1975
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:28,920
into a small space.
I'm also like, I don't drive

1976
01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:31,400
long distance.
It's one guy, very, very rarely.

1977
01:39:31,400 --> 01:39:34,920
So I think that's for my life.
I, I don't see it, but I, I

1978
01:39:34,920 --> 01:39:36,200
appreciate that there is a use
case.

1979
01:39:37,000 --> 01:39:41,480
Some folks, generally I think it
will be transitional.

1980
01:39:41,920 --> 01:39:42,920
This is fun.
We should do.

1981
01:39:42,920 --> 01:39:44,400
This is a great committee like
this.

1982
01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:47,280
Thumbs up.
Thumbs down.

1983
01:39:47,560 --> 01:39:54,760
Yeah, I don't know.
The propensity of the majors to

1984
01:39:55,400 --> 01:40:00,800
lean into diversification
towards fertilizers.

1985
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:04,080
Very specific.
Question.

1986
01:40:04,080 --> 01:40:06,400
It's really young too, like
Anglo and PHP.

1987
01:40:08,280 --> 01:40:13,320
But the the I say overrated this
the story around fertilizers and

1988
01:40:13,320 --> 01:40:14,960
growing populations.
Petrics.

1989
01:40:14,960 --> 01:40:16,520
Any chance to put the gloves up
to PHP?

1990
01:40:16,520 --> 01:40:20,640
Like, yeah, yeah.
No, I mean, I, you know, in the

1991
01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:23,480
early days we were looking at
soft projects and things like

1992
01:40:23,480 --> 01:40:26,280
that, but we just haven't quite
seen it actually.

1993
01:40:26,640 --> 01:40:28,520
Yeah.
We haven't quite seen it kind of

1994
01:40:28,520 --> 01:40:32,320
find its find its traps or
actually, you know, that kind of

1995
01:40:32,320 --> 01:40:33,680
big growth story really
happened.

1996
01:40:33,920 --> 01:40:36,880
Yeah.
I mean, I also do like the

1997
01:40:39,520 --> 01:40:42,960
ambition to lean into a
different industry that requires

1998
01:40:42,960 --> 01:40:47,600
scale and a lot of investment.
So like in the altruistic hat

1999
01:40:47,600 --> 01:40:52,080
on, is it good for the world?
Probably, yeah.

2000
01:40:52,680 --> 01:40:54,440
They'll make money out of it.
Yeah, I think at some point in

2001
01:40:54,440 --> 01:40:55,240
the cycle.
I think so.

2002
01:40:55,240 --> 01:41:00,240
I think like BHP has realized
like oh large scale bulk

2003
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:01,920
operation, that's what we're
good at.

2004
01:41:03,200 --> 01:41:06,040
Let's do that.
Let's really squeeze, really

2005
01:41:06,040 --> 01:41:08,720
squeeze the lemon so.
Love Travis's face.

2006
01:41:08,720 --> 01:41:10,160
That's what you.
What do you?

2007
01:41:10,160 --> 01:41:13,520
What do you think?
I'd like to stop myself from

2008
01:41:13,520 --> 01:41:17,040
talking sometime.
BHP is in way too deep anyway.

2009
01:41:17,480 --> 01:41:19,200
Yeah, it's, I mean, they're
doing it.

2010
01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:21,600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Thinking kind of

2011
01:41:21,600 --> 01:41:24,640
jurisdictionally, what do you
think of the emergence of Saudi

2012
01:41:24,640 --> 01:41:28,600
Arabia as a mining hub?
An investment hub or an actual

2013
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:31,720
location?
Well, they want people, you

2014
01:41:31,720 --> 01:41:33,480
know, sharing tenements,
looking.

2015
01:41:33,480 --> 01:41:35,160
Is the right way underrated in
that?

2016
01:41:36,720 --> 01:41:40,120
I think for a long time we you'd
see little junior mining

2017
01:41:40,120 --> 01:41:42,760
companies being like, are we
getting investment from Saudi?

2018
01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:45,840
I think it's very real.
I think that the money getting

2019
01:41:45,840 --> 01:41:49,640
deployed by Saudi is real.
And I think the effort to go and

2020
01:41:49,640 --> 01:41:51,760
explore that country is very
real.

2021
01:41:52,280 --> 01:41:55,760
I mean, you know, we've seen it,
we've seen friends join Saudi

2022
01:41:56,440 --> 01:41:58,720
companies, you know, you see
them at conferences.

2023
01:41:59,280 --> 01:42:01,080
Like I think it's, it's genuine,
so.

2024
01:42:01,400 --> 01:42:05,480
Yeah, I mean, I think that if
you ever make a case for

2025
01:42:05,480 --> 01:42:08,120
governments taking a long term
view, I mean, that's that's the

2026
01:42:08,120 --> 01:42:10,160
case in point right there.
That's belief in the energy

2027
01:42:10,160 --> 01:42:12,480
transition.
We need to diversify away from

2028
01:42:13,240 --> 01:42:14,760
fossil fuels.
Even if you think it's still got

2029
01:42:14,760 --> 01:42:18,480
another 20-30 years to run and
they are doing it, you know,

2030
01:42:18,480 --> 01:42:21,880
they don't do things small,
small bots that are a big swing.

2031
01:42:23,320 --> 01:42:27,680
So yeah, it feels real.
Probably appropriately righted

2032
01:42:27,680 --> 01:42:29,920
at the.
Moment so right around this the

2033
01:42:30,520 --> 01:42:34,200
like do we focus on cost curves
enough?

2034
01:42:38,680 --> 01:42:40,920
I don't know is this how do I
describe this in over and

2035
01:42:40,920 --> 01:42:44,000
underrated?
I think we focus on it too much

2036
01:42:44,360 --> 01:42:46,440
because I think the market
doesn't behave.

2037
01:42:46,800 --> 01:42:50,040
It takes what the cost curve
doesn't take into account is how

2038
01:42:50,040 --> 01:42:51,720
long somebody's willing to wear
losses.

2039
01:42:51,720 --> 01:42:54,000
Yeah.
And because we're not static.

2040
01:42:54,120 --> 01:42:56,000
Yeah.
And because we're in a mining

2041
01:42:56,000 --> 01:42:59,240
world where you might be
subsidized by your government to

2042
01:42:59,240 --> 01:43:01,360
keep going because it's
important to them.

2043
01:43:02,160 --> 01:43:05,520
The cost curve means nothing
because you're you're being

2044
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:06,720
funded to your losses are
getting funded.

2045
01:43:06,960 --> 01:43:09,880
Tell you what's underrated,
appropriately adjusted cost

2046
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:13,240
curve.
It's like cost curves ain't cost

2047
01:43:13,240 --> 01:43:14,600
curves.
So it's.

2048
01:43:14,760 --> 01:43:17,800
An equivalent basis, yeah.
That's underrated.

2049
01:43:17,840 --> 01:43:19,680
Wait, what's left out?
I may adjust it.

2050
01:43:20,600 --> 01:43:21,920
Properly rare.
It's horrible.

2051
01:43:22,640 --> 01:43:25,400
What product are you using?
How hard is it to get to that

2052
01:43:25,400 --> 01:43:27,000
actual product?
Yeah, everyone's making

2053
01:43:27,000 --> 01:43:28,880
something different.
Nickel.

2054
01:43:28,880 --> 01:43:31,520
Same thing.
There's ten different forms of

2055
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:33,200
nickel.
Which one are you using?

2056
01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:36,000
Yeah, something just comparing
apples with apples.

2057
01:43:36,440 --> 01:43:40,720
Challenging.
I've got one last one tin.

2058
01:43:42,760 --> 01:43:46,280
Haven't spent enough time on it,
but we've looked in the past.

2059
01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:48,760
A couple of years ago, we had a
crack at a few things and

2060
01:43:48,760 --> 01:43:50,680
incredibly difficult to find
assets.

2061
01:43:50,680 --> 01:43:53,400
So I'd say underrated just on
not knowing the market very

2062
01:43:53,400 --> 01:43:55,960
well, but knowing how how scarce
those assets are.

2063
01:43:58,280 --> 01:44:03,280
Awesome, what he said.
The entrepreneurial mining

2064
01:44:03,280 --> 01:44:07,560
spirit in Australia.
I think best in the world.

2065
01:44:07,720 --> 01:44:09,040
Yeah, I think it's.
I think it's.

2066
01:44:09,040 --> 01:44:11,880
Great.
I think we, yeah, Yeah, no,

2067
01:44:11,880 --> 01:44:14,200
hugely underrated, hugely
underrated, yeah.

2068
01:44:14,200 --> 01:44:16,640
You know, I think, you know,
when you look at those, those

2069
01:44:16,640 --> 01:44:20,720
kind of mining jurisdiction
ratings and like we should be #1

2070
01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:24,120
by a long margin, I think we're,
we've got the best mining people

2071
01:44:24,120 --> 01:44:26,800
in the world by by far.
And I think we've got very, very

2072
01:44:26,800 --> 01:44:29,920
entrepreneurial people as well.
It's not just down to there's a

2073
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:34,200
lot of good miners globally, but
just the the ability for us to

2074
01:44:34,200 --> 01:44:40,160
get into challenging terrains,
roll up our sleeves, just get on

2075
01:44:40,160 --> 01:44:45,520
with it, be clever, be smart, do
things inexpensively, being

2076
01:44:45,520 --> 01:44:48,320
efficient.
The culture like we call like

2077
01:44:48,360 --> 01:44:50,680
we've said this before, like
difference between Canada and

2078
01:44:50,680 --> 01:44:52,840
Australia.
It's like a jumbo operate in

2079
01:44:53,160 --> 01:44:55,960
Australia is like a it's.
Like a mercenary, right?

2080
01:44:55,960 --> 01:44:58,200
So you, you, I, I am the best at
this.

2081
01:44:58,200 --> 01:45:01,080
I do this many metres a day and
I'll go down the road and do it

2082
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:02,480
right because that's how good I
am.

2083
01:45:02,640 --> 01:45:04,240
It's hard to find that anywhere
else in the world.

2084
01:45:04,240 --> 01:45:07,640
Yeah, I think, I think it's
massively underrated.

2085
01:45:07,640 --> 01:45:11,680
I think that it it, it's not
just the entrepreneurial

2086
01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:15,400
leaders, the Andrew Forrest well
that we obviously think of them

2087
01:45:15,400 --> 01:45:19,560
naturally, but it permeates down
to the attitude at the

2088
01:45:19,560 --> 01:45:21,720
operations and I think it is the
best in the world.

2089
01:45:21,720 --> 01:45:26,600
I you know, yeah, these are the
industry builders, these are the

2090
01:45:26,600 --> 01:45:28,680
people that actually bring new
things to to market.

2091
01:45:28,680 --> 01:45:31,400
And it's great to see like a new
generation coming through as

2092
01:45:31,400 --> 01:45:35,640
well.
You know, great to see the

2093
01:45:35,640 --> 01:45:39,200
emergence of new companies.
And, and I spare a thought for

2094
01:45:39,200 --> 01:45:41,440
the lithium guys who've actually
executed really well and just

2095
01:45:41,440 --> 01:45:44,120
been on the receiving end of a
crappy price cycle.

2096
01:45:44,440 --> 01:45:47,480
I think of Lyontown that
executed a project on time and

2097
01:45:47,480 --> 01:45:48,680
on budget.
It's a.

2098
01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:52,560
Good example, lithium, it's
challenging to permit projects

2099
01:45:52,560 --> 01:45:56,440
in Australia, yet we went from
zero to #1 in the world pretty

2100
01:45:56,440 --> 01:45:58,560
quickly.
Yeah, where like we look at

2101
01:45:58,640 --> 01:46:01,960
Canada, we have some really good
ore bodies and in that whole

2102
01:46:02,040 --> 01:46:04,320
time period failed to build a
single lithium.

2103
01:46:04,840 --> 01:46:06,200
I think like you get a standard
tool.

2104
01:46:06,600 --> 01:46:08,920
Kind of like best sort of
viewership of this show might be

2105
01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:10,160
Canada.
So I just feel like I can hear

2106
01:46:10,160 --> 01:46:13,400
you French.
No, look, I think it's, look, I

2107
01:46:13,400 --> 01:46:16,360
think they're different.
Canada's on a, on a journey at

2108
01:46:16,360 --> 01:46:16,960
the moment.
Yeah.

2109
01:46:16,960 --> 01:46:21,640
But I think, you know, it's
jurisdiction's one thing, but

2110
01:46:21,640 --> 01:46:23,320
the people are something else as
well.

2111
01:46:24,280 --> 01:46:28,880
I got to say one last one the
most, the most underrated place

2112
01:46:28,880 --> 01:46:31,960
to be allocating capital right
now, be it location, but you've

2113
01:46:31,960 --> 01:46:38,520
got to say location and
commodity with a long term

2114
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:39,760
patient view.
Yeah, Yeah.

2115
01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:46,840
I think it's, this is a pretty
boring answer, but I think it's

2116
01:46:46,840 --> 01:46:50,000
probably South America and
copper.

2117
01:46:52,600 --> 01:46:54,520
Yeah.
I just think that the projects

2118
01:46:54,520 --> 01:47:00,120
there are going to be enormous
and it's been interesting to

2119
01:47:00,120 --> 01:47:06,880
see, you know, Co-op petition, I
guess for one of a bit of a

2120
01:47:06,880 --> 01:47:10,600
word, you know, thinking about
how we can bring.

2121
01:47:10,800 --> 01:47:12,240
Those also making up words on
this.

2122
01:47:12,240 --> 01:47:15,960
Yeah, yeah.
You know how you can bring a

2123
01:47:16,000 --> 01:47:17,920
bunch of projects online
together that are probably going

2124
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:20,200
to need a share infrastructure.
I think that, but that requires

2125
01:47:21,280 --> 01:47:24,240
a huge investment of capital
over a long period of time.

2126
01:47:26,720 --> 01:47:29,160
I've spent this whole podcast
talking badly about Canada, but

2127
01:47:29,160 --> 01:47:30,160
I'm actually going to say
Canada.

2128
01:47:30,520 --> 01:47:32,120
I think the change that's
happening in Canada.

2129
01:47:32,120 --> 01:47:33,760
It's hated.
It's people are people are

2130
01:47:33,760 --> 01:47:37,080
bearish about it.
If timeline's condensed and

2131
01:47:37,080 --> 01:47:39,920
that's a bits.
I reckon the shift that's

2132
01:47:39,920 --> 01:47:43,680
happening in Canada is very real
and I think it's reputationally

2133
01:47:44,240 --> 01:47:47,600
not where people want to go.
And I think that's for me why I

2134
01:47:47,600 --> 01:47:49,480
think it's underrated, where I
think something like South

2135
01:47:49,480 --> 01:47:51,440
America is pretty.
It's pretty well saturated.

2136
01:47:51,440 --> 01:47:52,720
Yeah.
What commodity?

2137
01:47:53,480 --> 01:48:00,840
I'm interviewing now.
Just I don't know lithium,

2138
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:04,760
nickel, I think they they wrap
full for production there,

2139
01:48:05,200 --> 01:48:06,760
especially maybe more lithium
than nickel.

2140
01:48:07,480 --> 01:48:11,440
Really, Nickel, it's us, but
that lithium triangle up in

2141
01:48:11,680 --> 01:48:13,840
yeah, Quebec and.
Yeah, the giants that lithium

2142
01:48:13,840 --> 01:48:14,640
projects.
Like.

2143
01:48:15,480 --> 01:48:19,280
Again, it's, it's like it's
similar to the South American

2144
01:48:19,280 --> 01:48:21,120
copper.
It's like there's a bunch of

2145
01:48:21,680 --> 01:48:24,320
kind of disjointed ownership of
lithium projects.

2146
01:48:24,920 --> 01:48:27,560
They need an infrastructure
infrastructure solution.

2147
01:48:27,800 --> 01:48:33,120
That's probably an Ave. where
you can bring a couple of groups

2148
01:48:33,120 --> 01:48:35,840
together and unlock the whole
region.

2149
01:48:37,600 --> 01:48:40,040
Guys this has been awesome.
Thank you so much for making the

2150
01:48:40,040 --> 01:48:42,400
time and coming on money.
Mind spending two hours chatting

2151
01:48:42,400 --> 01:48:43,600
with?
Us Oh, thanks for having a nice

2152
01:48:43,600 --> 01:48:44,320
time.
It's been good.

2153
01:48:44,480 --> 01:48:45,560
Thanks James, this has been
awesome.

2154
01:48:45,680 --> 01:48:49,000
Went a little deep, but.
Yeah, real deep.

2155
01:48:49,000 --> 01:48:50,120
Yeah, it.
Was great.

2156
01:48:50,120 --> 01:48:53,080
It was wicked.
I appreciate the, the

2157
01:48:53,080 --> 01:48:55,840
transparency and the candid
nature with your responses and

2158
01:48:56,280 --> 01:48:59,720
yeah, the ability to kind of
unpack how you both think and

2159
01:49:00,120 --> 01:49:02,280
commend you on the journey
you've been on and you're

2160
01:49:02,280 --> 01:49:04,800
excited to see what while they
kind of continue to go to.

2161
01:49:05,320 --> 01:49:07,520
Thanks, hope we can come back.
Keeping you on that chairman's

2162
01:49:07,560 --> 01:49:09,040
list for when we RPI.
That's right.

2163
01:49:11,640 --> 01:49:13,040
Awesome guys.
Thanks, goodbye.

2164
01:49:14,200 --> 01:49:15,560
I've got nothing more to say,
mate.

2165
01:49:15,560 --> 01:49:18,960
That was a special, special
conversation and I'm, yeah, just

2166
01:49:18,960 --> 01:49:21,720
very grateful to the guys for
coming in and and speaking the

2167
01:49:21,720 --> 01:49:23,360
way they did.
Absolutely mate, what a wicked

2168
01:49:23,360 --> 01:49:25,600
conversation.
We hope you all enjoyed that one

2169
01:49:25,600 --> 01:49:27,520
as much as we did.
And a massive thank you to

2170
01:49:27,520 --> 01:49:30,040
Mineral Mining Services,
grounded sand, big ground

2171
01:49:30,040 --> 01:49:31,400
support and cross boundary
energy.

2172
01:49:31,800 --> 01:49:35,800
Odoro, Odoro.
Now remember, I'm an idiot.

2173
01:49:36,080 --> 01:49:38,520
JD is an idiot.
If you thought any of this was

2174
01:49:38,520 --> 01:49:41,040
anything other than
entertainment, you're an idiot.

2175
01:49:41,400 --> 01:49:42,560
And you need to read out a
disclaimer.