2 Geos Interviewed 100+ Top Discoverers — Here’s What it Takes (Steve & Ahmad)

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So someone like Bennett knows
how to go through those moments.

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Someone like Creasy knows how to
hire the right people.

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I would think that the best
exploration right now, I think

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it's very blue.
I think so too, and I actually

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think it's by a long, long way
we we were talking.

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Just then, mate, that
discovering something, finding

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something like a pure, genuine
discovery, exploring of of of

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significant deposit, you know,
like being part of a team that

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does that or having a
significant role.

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That is the most like glorified
thing you can do in this

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industry through a combination
of of serendipity and

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capability, minting literal
economic value into existence

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for the benefit of of everyone.
That is, that's the penultimate

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kind of glory, glory in our
industry.

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You're spot on, mate.
It it takes something special,

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right?
It takes driving forces, it

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takes human ingenuity, it takes
a whole lot, and we wanted to

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explore that, that and the
perfect people.

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Explore it.
Yeah.

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The perfect people to explore
that with our guest today Mate

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Ahmad and Steve, who taught us
also a bunch about podcasting.

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That they are, yeah.
Ahmad's Lehmann and Steve

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Beresford, you know, first and
foremost students of exploration

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history, but they're
explorationists themselves and

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have have have made significant
contributions to, you know,

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their their various interests in
the industry.

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We're gonna we're just let's
just get to it because it's this

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was a wiki combo.
We can start talking about

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podcasting because they were the
Co hosts of exploration radio,

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which is a phenomenal old
podcast.

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If you ever get a spare 70 hours
to listen to all of your

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episodes, it's worth it.
And you can feel their fantastic

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passion for this beautiful
industry.

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So here we go, mate.
Let's share the conversation.

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So yeah.
And some people have to just

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socialise with you.
They need to get into the

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conversation.
They they're nervous when they

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start because they've treated it
like public presentation or

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something.
That's why in person, chill in

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person is so much better.
It's it's harder to build that

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rapport if you're just zooming
something in completely.

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So like this, we've already
spoken for 20 minutes before.

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Yeah, yeah.
If you haven't, if you're, if

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you're someone you've never met
on the other side of the world,

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it's harder to build that
because you're like, all right,

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you ready to start filming?
That's right.

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Yeah, exactly I do.
So the other one is in a modern

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corporate world, people want to
be very careful what they say

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and it takes a while to remove
that.

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Just that little comfort level
of, you know, I've pre pay, I've

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pre planned 10 things that I
must say, I must make sure they

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go in this order.
It's like giving a presentation

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and turning up and finding a
slide that you don't know what

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it is.
Everyone goes that's the worst

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thing you could ever do in
giving a talk is be so

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procedural that when something
goes wrong, you.

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Freak out.
Yeah, and you fall apart.

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You fall apart because your
procedure has just fallen apart

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on the stage right in front of
everybody.

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Whereas if you actually put
together the talk logically and

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you know your own material, and
if the slide turns up and it's

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not what it's supposed to be,
you just keep going.

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You are unfazed.
And people saw like, yeah,

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things like, yeah, like the pre
plan, like, you know, like when

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we when we did it, yeah.
Like you got to remember, like,

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you know, we started podcasting
10 years ago, right?

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Like that's when we first
started.

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So yeah, it's a completely
different landscape than what it

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is now.
Like, yeah.

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Like people understand podcasts,
you know, like we have to

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explain to people, like, I mean,
I hope you use this content in

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the thing, but you know, like we
have to go to people and explain

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to them what a podcast for
people, like part what?

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And you're like, well, you know,
it's a radio show.

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They're like, oh, you wanted me
to do a presentation.

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No, no, no, no, we just want you
to talk.

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And you're like, but why is that
interesting?

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And you're like, well, it could
be interesting.

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You're like, who's going to make
it interesting?

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Well, I'm hoping you will.
And they're like, but I don't,

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I'm not interesting.
We're like, well, we think you

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are like, it's like, yeah, so
this is like a lot of.

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And then even then we would do
all this prep and tell people

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like some of the early days,
like I think we must have done

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like 3 or 4 pre interview
conversations to kind of like,

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like, you know, gear them up to
be like, yeah, you got to come.

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And you know, like do not do a
presentation.

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You know, next call, remember,
do not do a presentation.

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Third call, remember, do not do
a presentation.

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And when they showed up, they
will come and be like, so do you

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want me to talk about my this
thing?

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And they will just talk for like
1520 minutes like a

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presentation.
And you're like, you know what,

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let's just let them get this
shit out of there like the

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thing.
And then we'll start recording.

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Like that's where the kind of
the material will come from.

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And so the other things like,
you know, like I like I watch

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Rogan episodes a lot and I kind
of realized that he used to have

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this like structure where in the
first hour he talked, he rarely

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talked.
Like if you actually count, he

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might talk like 1020%.
And in the middle hour he would

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talk slightly more.
And in the end, he would talk a

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lot and kind of own the person.
And so I kind of figured out

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like, you know, that's one of
the reasons why we went in long

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form was like, you know what,
let's just let the person talk

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for 30 minutes.
You know, if they're really well

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trained, they might talk for 40
minutes in that presentation

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mode.
But at some point, they're going

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to have to switch over to start
talking normally.

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And that's when the interview
will kind of start.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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And then we would burn the first
whatever minutes where they were

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just in presentation mode.
And then we would just get rid

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of.
That and that's why it's so good

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to have politicians come and and
do that as well, because like

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how much like pre scripted stuff
can you possibly get through?

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If you're going to go up there
and do a three hour

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conversation, you have to be
kind of a normal human to be

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able to just have a
conversation.

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And that's fine.
I mean, like, yeah.

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Like, I mean, are we genuinely
curious in, like, when you have

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guests on, like, how many guests
ask you whether you have a

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script for the interview?
Like as a percentage I'd say

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it's close to 0.
Never been asked if you have a

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script for an interview.
Yeah, the, the, the one thing is

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sometimes people say, can you
give us a list of questions?

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Yeah, people.
And we will say we haven't even

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prepped for this yet.
There is no list of questions

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you know.
So that was interesting, right,

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Because when we started,
everyone asked for a script.

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So we had to write scripts and
say, hey, this is going to be

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the flow of the.
Word for word.

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Word for word, yeah.
Script.

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Yeah.
And then and then, you know,

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like what we realized, I don't
know, like after the first

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season was that, you know, we
could totally screw people over

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by just jumping around on the
script because then they would

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get more honest kind of, you
know, because they had they were

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obviously pre trained a certain
certain way to talk.

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And then you would go and then
like, yeah, they will say

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something, you go, well actually
let's just jump here and then

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jump back and then and in that
thing they will get confused and

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start talking to kind of
normally.

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Yeah.
So that's what I mean.

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I think it's like a lot's.
Changed in 10 years.

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Yeah, I think it's changed now
because the, the, the, the guest

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side I think understands what,
what they're, what they're

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bringing a lot more than us
having to coach them where I

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feel like we have to coach a lot
of people on, you know, like

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what a podcast was, what are we
trying to do?

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Like, you know, why a general
conversation is interesting.

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You know, most people were like,
surely that's not interesting

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because I built my career doing
100 presentations a year.

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Like people want presentations.
And we were kind of like,

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actually, we don't want
presentations.

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We want the exact opposite.
We want human beings.

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We actually want the.
I mean a classic the

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conversation we did with John,
John Van.

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These were high end individuals
in our industry and it's like

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these are friends.
Would you like to listen in to

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my coffee conversation with
these guys?

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I'm privileged.
I've done these things.

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Is that something that other
people would would love to

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participate in?
Most of the world doesn't get

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that opportunity and you're
like, and when you do these

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informal, this is what normal
day is like for me, having a

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conversation with John or, or,
or the like.

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And they're like, actually,
that's what people want.

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They don't want to hear the
formality.

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They want to hear the real life
interactions, which is, you

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know, the classic is the one I
did with John by myself, John

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Van.
And at the end of it, we're

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going through it.
And I said to John, you and I

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sound like tosses.
And then he goes and I went, you

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know, we are, there's two dudes
up in each other just as if we

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were having a coffee.
And it's like, this is a

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conversation.
It's what it's like having a

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conversation with John.
This is what I this is how I

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interact when I'm talking with
John.

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The beauty about the medium is,
is, is anyone listening?

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Feels like they're a part of
that conversation.

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And if it, yeah, authenticity is
kind of the key ingredient.

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You said you started 10.
Years ago, voyeuristic concept.

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I think that's really, that's
the part that I like podcasts.

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It's like, you know, I feel like
I'm a voyeur to other people

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having a conversation, you know,
like I don't know them, you

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know, like it's unlikely.
My social circle is going to

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overlap with theirs, but I get
to be a voyeur on on like

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listening to them and then and
especially nice if they then put

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as much of their self in there
because you kind of feel like

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you walked away with a little
part of that person in in that

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conversation.
And getting those differences of

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opinion is just fantastic.
You know it, it might be like

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you say outside your group of
friends, outside of the people

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you associate with and and how
they think people from

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completely different walks and
being able to just listen in, be

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a family on the wall.
And also like, you know, I mean,

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this is like, I mean, I hope you
can cut all of this thing in at

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some point.
But yeah, like one of the.

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It's already started.
This is it.

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Yeah, what are you talking
about?

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This this.
Is all we're going to do.

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I mean, one of the aspects of,
you know, like around, yeah, in

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the preamble, you kind of told
me like, why do we got to like

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the podcast?
So one of the points was, Steve,

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was this like, if I'm a 23 year
old in the industry, like what

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are the chances that I'm going
to be able to talk to someone

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like John Aronsky or John Van or
some of the other people that we

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had on the show?
Pretty low, right?

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So why don't we be that conduit
where we have that conversation

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and then they get to be a part
of it, right?

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And they can consume 10% of it
or they can consume 100% of it.

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They may understand 10% or they
may understand 100%, but at

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least they're better off by at
least getting that 10% of the

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conversation, right.
So that was one of the the

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guiding principles of doing a
podcast early.

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The other one was really around
that.

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I always felt that, you know,
like people, people write down

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what they do, but people speak
what they think or they or they

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talk about what they think.
And sometimes it was I was

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always more interested in like,
you know, like, like, what were

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you thinking when you did this
stuff?

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Like why did you do it this way?
You know, like I have your

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written, I have your
presentation.

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00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,160
I saw, you know, you said we did
A, then we did B, then we did C

226
00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,920
and then whatever, right?
But I'm always interested in

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00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,920
like, why did you start with A?
Like, you know, you could have

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00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,800
started AD as well because you
could have jumped or you know,

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00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:10,240
like why, why did you not do
that way?

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00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,520
Right.
And then people were a lot more

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00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,040
honest about things like, you
know, like, well, actually I

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00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,120
didn't know.
So I just started with a right.

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00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:19,520
And you're like, oh, so.
Yeah.

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00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,360
So someone like John Van, you
could like, like, push him.

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00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,480
You know, one of the, like, the
moments in the John Van

236
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,120
interview was when he talked
about the donut of neglect,

237
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:28,520
right?
And it was almost like he was

238
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:30,880
kind of formulating that idea in
his head as we were kind of

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00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,120
talking, right?
Which is essentially that on

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00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,280
some assets, you know, people
focus on the mind and some

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00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,360
assets people focus on really
far away from the mind.

242
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,320
But there's this area in the
middle which often gets

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00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,840
overlooked and, and is where,
you know, like there's quite a

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00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,240
lot of value to be achieved.
You know, and then as he was

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00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:46,880
talking, you know, you could
kind of figure out that he

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00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,280
didn't quite get the concept
completely himself, but he was

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00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,520
willing to put it out there to
say, Hey, I'm working on this

248
00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,120
idea.
He's not going to go and give a

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00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,200
presentation on the doughnut and
neglect because he has to have

250
00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,760
analytics to show, you know,
like this many opportunities

251
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:01,600
were missed in Anglo at the
time.

252
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:02,640
And this is blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.

253
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:04,960
Like, you know, this is how the
budget it was a proportion this

254
00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,520
way.
He's never going to put that in

255
00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,000
the presentation, but he was
happy to put that in a in a

256
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,440
podcast interview.
All right.

257
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,360
And that's kind of what I mean,
like, you know, people talk

258
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,000
about what they think rather
than what they did.

259
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,040
And that was that was kind of
what we were trying to get out

260
00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:18,920
of out of those.
I'm going to I'm going to Fact

261
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:20,920
Check you.
You just listed 2 reasons why

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00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,080
you started expiration radio.
I happened to have a clip where

263
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,840
you articulate very.
I don't know how long it's been

264
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:33,720
since you've listened to this.
Hi Music, I'm Ahmad.

265
00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,120
And hi, I'm Steve.
At Audio Exploration Radio, a

266
00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,120
podcast focusing on the past,
present and the future of

267
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,480
mineral exploration.
Now some of you out there might

268
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,920
be asking, what is mineral
exploration and why does it

269
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,840
matter to me?
Well, there's no denying that we

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00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,800
now all live in a society that
increasingly relies on

271
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,520
technology on an everyday basis.
And as our reliance on

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00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,680
technology grows, so does our
reliance to the raw materials

273
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,400
like metals that make a lot of
that technology possible.

274
00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:04,240
So the challenge is that we have
to be constantly searching for

275
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,080
new mineral deposits to replace
the ones that we're exhausting

276
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:08,880
and using up.
This is where mineral

277
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,440
exploration comes in.
It's the science and practice of

278
00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,240
finding these new mineral
deposits.

279
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,840
As explorers, both Steve and I
have spent most of our careers

280
00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,960
searching for new mineral
deposits and to be honest, we

281
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,200
haven't been very successful.
And that's not just us overall,

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00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,320
the industry itself hasn't had a
great tracker for the last

283
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,880
couple of decades.
This lack of success has led to

284
00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,880
a number of people questioning
whether our current practices

285
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,840
are adequate for the challenges
we are facing now and we'll

286
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,320
likely face in the future.
The idea for this podcast arose

287
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,840
out of a frustration that both
Ahmed and I had about a lack of

288
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,960
media to have these
conversations.

289
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,400
So we aim to bring you a look
into the past.

290
00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,320
We're going to deconstruct the
successful explorers of the

291
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,760
past.
What makes a good explorer, What

292
00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,560
makes a good discoverer?
And we're going to hear in their

293
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,480
words, their stories about
discoveries.

294
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,640
We're going to look at this
painful transition that we're in

295
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,040
the middle of.
What are we doing and how are we

296
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,360
looking towards the future?
Are we ready for the challenges

297
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,120
that we face?
Are we having the right

298
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,280
conversations, asking the right
questions?

299
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,160
We hope these stories will
inspire you because first and

300
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,680
foremost, these are the stories
that we wanted to hear.

301
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,800
We've searched for these stories
because this is what we want to

302
00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,680
hear about the future of mental
expression.

303
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:30,560
Cool.
How does it feel listening back

304
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:36,200
to that?
So prescriptive, you know, I'm,

305
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,600
I'm gonna put this straight up.
No, no, I'm going to interrupt

306
00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:40,640
you right here.
When we first started, I used to

307
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,800
write these really long scripts
and was me who did this and I

308
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,640
know this, but that one, you
wrote that yourself entirely.

309
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,880
And then it was me who went the
path of going you know what, we

310
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,280
need to be way less and you
disagreed with me.

311
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,440
You were like, no, I like it
needs to be organized,

312
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,800
everything like that.
I went, no, let's just talk

313
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:04,520
rubbish, but I I know that I was
the dude.

314
00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,600
I wrote my part of that.
I know I was the guy who started

315
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,080
us off on the whole, you know,
writing it out.

316
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,960
Formality, flowery language,
everything, everything.

317
00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,400
I mean, before that, I mean, I
think that like, I don't know

318
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,280
how long that script took, but
like, yeah, it was like weeks in

319
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,160
the making, right?
Like, you know, we antagonized

320
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,680
over every word, like all of
this type of stuff.

321
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,600
And then, yeah, like Steve says,
slowly we unbound a lot of that

322
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,320
because yeah, like, I mean,
like, yeah, like I think we also

323
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,920
have to talk about the the fact
that, you know, like I made this

324
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,600
comment that we started 10 years
ago, right?

325
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,480
And at that time, you know, like
the the leading podcasts were

326
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,600
really, you know, like like
Serial or like, you know, things

327
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,600
that were like very well
researched and.

328
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:44,800
Great.
Production.

329
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:45,920
Production, though.
You too?

330
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:47,640
Yeah.
Like there were radio people

331
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,800
going into correct podcasts.
And so and you know, like that

332
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,280
was really the the soup tujour
at that time, right?

333
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,160
Like like out of the top
whatever 20 podcasts, yeah,

334
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,440
aside was Rogan like, you know,
maybe I'm not sure where he was

335
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:01,880
in that ranking probably would
have been high, but most of them

336
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,280
were all of these kind of like
highly serialized kind of

337
00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,000
podcasts.
And so.

338
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,440
So when we would like tell
people we're doing a podcast,

339
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,640
you know, like you'd have to
kind of create an environment

340
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:16,320
that that fitted the the the
zeitgeist at that time, right?

341
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,360
And podcasts.
So, so yeah, so that's why we

342
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:19,560
started.
I think it's like very very

343
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,680
scripted and and.
Heavily edited, even though we

344
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,840
were early on and the technology
was nothing like what you've

345
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,840
got, you know, if you take some
of the this, the hours that went

346
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,520
into editing them and you're
like, we can't keep up.

347
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,120
We are the fundamental limiter
is our editing time.

348
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,560
I mean, the editing was high
because we were just so shit at

349
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,120
it at the start, right?
Like, I mean, like, yeah, like

350
00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,080
when I listen to that again,
like I can you know, how you

351
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,240
hear a certain audio and you
know exactly where you were in

352
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,360
that time, Like that is all
recorded.

353
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,400
I think that's like number.
I don't know, whatever it take

354
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,840
of me sitting in my car in a
Coles parking lot with towels

355
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,480
around recording that, right?
And so that would have been

356
00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,640
like, I don't know, a couple of
hours of me just recording the

357
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,320
same thing over and over and
over to try to get the sense of

358
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,560
how the audio works.
And even like, you know, like

359
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,920
your clunky background kind of
audio, you can tell.

360
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,720
Like I can tell he's definitely
sitting in his car somewhere or

361
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,840
some parking lot because of the
echo that comes in the

362
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:14,200
background.
Like all of that stuff, right?

363
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,160
You know that.
I reckon he's in a little room.

364
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,920
Cars have phenomenal acoustics
so I reckon you're in like a

365
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:19,880
tiny little.
Room.

366
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,640
Occasionally I would do it in my
office, but I got a glass screen

367
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,400
and I was.
In a glass wall as well.

368
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,680
And glass wall and so everybody
can see me.

369
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,000
Yeah.
And you know, as a senior person

370
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,200
in, in the, in the company, it's
a bad look, you know, just

371
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,160
sitting there at lunchtime or
whatever, just.

372
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:43,320
Either you've lost your marbles,
or you're just talking to

373
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,200
yourself, or people think like
it's completely checked out, or

374
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,360
you're just recording scripts
that we were.

375
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,360
Like as soon as we go to studio,
the whole world changed because

376
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,880
we we were serious about
acoustics and that was you.

377
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,640
You were 100% driven on making
sure that we were serious about

378
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,040
changing that and that was a big
step for us.

379
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,359
And also like things like, I
mean, like, you know, like now

380
00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,079
you guys have this capacity,
right?

381
00:17:06,079 --> 00:17:09,280
Like a lot of the tech that you
probably have in this room

382
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,079
probably didn't exist for
podcasting 10 years ago either,

383
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,480
right?
So we, you know, so that the

384
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,119
podcasting studios we had to go
to, you know, like we were

385
00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,599
really in a like a music school
in a backroom in a music school

386
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:25,040
that we paid to basically have
the desk and the mics and

387
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,800
everything put into place.
So we could actually use it as a

388
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,400
podcast studio, right, Because
we could find nothing outside of

389
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,760
renting a professional radio
studio, which is like thousands

390
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,160
of dollars, whatever it was a
day.

391
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,040
It's so it was very like
bootstrapped in, in that in that

392
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,040
time, not just from the fact
that, you know, like we were a

393
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,280
podcast about mining and
exploration, but also the fact

394
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,840
that we were a podcast in Perth,
you know, like they just weren't

395
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,360
a lot of places that we can kind
of kind of go.

396
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,920
Now you have things like like
the what is it, the hen house

397
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:55,960
like you know, where they have
these excellent podcasting

398
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,240
studios that are custom built.
More and more popping up, yeah.

399
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,160
Yeah, like, you know, walk in,
you know, like turn it on and

400
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,040
then bang, you're done.
You know, like that didn't

401
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:04,400
exist.
Like, you know, we would like,

402
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,000
we would have to like, you know,
in the early days, I would have

403
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,480
to show up with our producer
Dan, at that time.

404
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,160
And we would have to take the
table, you know, like put it in

405
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,120
this location, you know, move
all the chairs in, set up all

406
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:18,880
the mics, make sure all the
cables ran into the, the control

407
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:20,640
room, all of that stuff.
And then it all had to get

408
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,200
packed away at the end because
I'm not sure what it was used

409
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:24,320
for.
I think it was a storage room or

410
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,440
something, I can't remember.
We'd have to take all the shit

411
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,720
out of the storage room, put it
in the hallway, set up the room

412
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,640
and then pack it up away again.
So that that's kind of how how

413
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,880
we started.
Right, in the exact same way

414
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,640
that building out a podcast
studio much more easier to do

415
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,640
today than it is 10 years ago.
Things have gotten better,

416
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,000
better technology.
The exact same is true for

417
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,440
building mind today, mate.
Because one of the biggest

418
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,800
limitations power, power power
has come a long way in 10 years.

419
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,080
Make the ability to get a hybrid
power station to service all of

420
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,160
your power needs on site in
tricky, tricky locations where

421
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,800
power reliability might be a
concern, sources of power might

422
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,480
be a concern.
Cross boundary energy mate.

423
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,560
They have solved this problem
for the industry.

424
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,560
It's spot on mate.
And it's not just the sources of

425
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,080
power, whether you want hybrid,
you know you want your solar,

426
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,600
your wind and all these sort of
types of power.

427
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,480
It's the financing.
They can look after the

428
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,600
financing for you, whether you
need to be more high on the the

429
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,040
OpEx and dial down the CapEx or
vice versa.

430
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:22,880
They'll look after you cross
boundary energy.

431
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,960
Zero CapEx power that is.
That is a huge, a huge, huge way

432
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,840
to get your mind up and running
as fast as possible.

433
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,600
I wish we had zero CapEx
podcasting mate, that would that

434
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,240
would have saved us a dollar.
Tim Taylor is the man for all

435
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,120
your needs in power, give cross
boundary energy call.

436
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:42,920
Go cross boundary hundreds of
hundreds of conversations with

437
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,440
the, you know, the industry's
most prolific explorationists

438
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,080
and as self confessed
unsuccessful explorationists at

439
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,880
that point in your career, did
you figure out why the industry

440
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,680
has, you know, did you answer
the question that you kind of

441
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,640
you were you were compelled to
start a podcast about, you know.

442
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,160
I I don't think so, but I think
it's a never ending journey.

443
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,600
If we go back to the actual
words that were written in the

444
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,960
part, you showed that I still
stand by those.

445
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,320
Two different people, Ahmed and
I Ahmed went the direction of

446
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,960
very much commercially more like
you during the podcast and

447
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:20,280
fascinated it just because his
own self development was about

448
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,400
building things, the technology,
moving into that part of the

449
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,480
business.
Me, I've always been obsessed

450
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,640
with the concept of why we're so
poor at exploration as a royal

451
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,000
we and it's so I'm really
heavily down the psych side, the

452
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,600
behavioural side and everything
like that.

453
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,680
But both of us wanted to learn
for ourselves.

454
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,640
It was about, hey, look, this is
my journey in development.

455
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,560
Do you want to listen in to my
to my journey?

456
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,920
So did I learn a lot from that
period of time?

457
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,640
Yeah, actually more than working
for a company.

458
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:59,440
So that's a big call.
If we invert what Trev just said

459
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,360
there, you guys also interviewed
a lot of people that were super

460
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:04,560
successful.
What are the characteristics

461
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,560
that stuck out from those
people?

462
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,960
Like Mark Bennett is an example
that really sticks in my mind of

463
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:11,920
people that did it and they did
it multiple times.

464
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,800
I think it's.
It's interesting, you know, like

465
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,600
I'll frame your question, both
of your questions in the sense

466
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,400
that, you know, the ultimate
goal of exploration is I think

467
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,880
to get to a discovery, right, to
discover something new.

468
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,840
And the thing that I kind of
took away from was that I think

469
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,760
I had a very immature view or
discovery was prior to prior to

470
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,960
going through the whole concept
of exploration radio.

471
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,840
What was that?
Is that discovery was really,

472
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,520
you know, like a like a moment
in time with an individual,

473
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:44,720
right?
And I think both of those aren't

474
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,160
true.
I don't think discovery is a

475
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,240
moment in time.
I think it's more like a movie

476
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,680
that has many moving parts and
takes a while to to unravel.

477
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,520
And I don't think it's ever an
individual.

478
00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:00,920
I think it's the the role the
individual plays is how they

479
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,880
interact with certain moments in
time or certain, let's call them

480
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,480
decisions, right?
Because that's I think a much

481
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,000
more easier way to understand
how they interact with certain

482
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,040
decisions at that moment in
time.

483
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,360
But I don't think it's ever
like, yeah, that was my view,

484
00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:17,000
right?
Like it's like, you know, like,

485
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,320
and also like, you know, like
kind of like I think some of

486
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,920
the, the, the constructs around
like, you know, like the WMC

487
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:25,880
kind of way of discovering, you
know, it was always like, you

488
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,400
know, there was like, you know,
it's Doug Haynes is the guy that

489
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,080
discovered this.
And as you unravel it, you

490
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,720
realize actually, you know, like
he played a part like, you know,

491
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,040
but but it was a movie.
He was one starring character in

492
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,760
it.
There were other people that in

493
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,560
the first act of the movie were
actually massively important,

494
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,240
but they had faded by the time
the final act came around.

495
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,720
And and so I think that's what I
kind of got out of it was that,

496
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,320
you know, like when you look at
successful people, they, you

497
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,640
know, like, yeah, they were
important, but but they were in

498
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,440
an environment that I think
allowed them to to be successful

499
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,960
because of the people they had
or the way they interacted with

500
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,480
moments and all of those type of
things.

501
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,600
And now when I look at
discoveries, that's the lens I

502
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,920
take.
I don't I don't take that lens

503
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,720
that, you know, it was, you
know, person X and they were,

504
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,160
you know, and they did it on a
Monday.

505
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,160
Like, you know, I don't think
that's how other stories work.

506
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,200
I think they are much more
evolved in that sense.

507
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:21,800
And that's the lesson I got out
of it.

508
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,400
When you talk to them, like, you
know, Bennett, you talk to him

509
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,320
like I'll give you an example,
like the discovery of Sirius

510
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,920
doesn't happen if Bennett was
not an Apex, right.

511
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,360
And Apex was a corporate
disaster.

512
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:35,080
Like, you know, we talk about it
on the on the show.

513
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,320
So it's because Apex happened
then, you know, there was a link

514
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,200
with Creasy.
There was this relationship

515
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,560
built between Mark and Creasy at
the time where, you know, like

516
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,720
Mark had a favourable
relationship with Creasy.

517
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,360
There was someone else who
didn't have a favourable

518
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:51,640
relationship with Creasy was the
other executive in the company

519
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,560
at the time.
And Mark had a falling out with

520
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,320
him, but he got along with
Creasy.

521
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,680
And so, yeah, So all of that
relationship like, you know,

522
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,880
that was the ACT, act one of the
serious discovery, right?

523
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,680
Serious was act three.
That doesn't happen unless that

524
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,080
that that doesn't occur.
Now if they can.

525
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:09,840
Go back all the way to
Thunderbox and probably before

526
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,440
that.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

527
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,880
So, you know, so Mark's own
movie in that sense has to be

528
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,960
that, you know, like he acted a
certain way to find Thunderbox

529
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,440
and Waterloo and the other
discoveries he'd made, which

530
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,600
ostracized him to a large degree
in, in the organizations that he

531
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,680
was in.
But it allowed him to go out and

532
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,480
do his own thing in, in, in that
sense.

533
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:31,400
And so, you know, so that's what
I mean.

534
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,560
Like, you know, like that's the
thing that I got away.

535
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,280
And, and I was, I'd seen Mark
probably talk about serious, I

536
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,160
don't know, 5 or 6 times during
that time.

537
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,880
And I don't think I ever got
that part of the story out of

538
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,880
him until he came on the show
And he kind of like, like

539
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,560
unraveled it all.
And maybe he unraveled it in

540
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,880
real time with us.
I, I think so.

541
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,800
I think I can remember back to
the second interview or the

542
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,640
second part of the first
interview we did with him where

543
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,280
I think we got him to a space
where he was saying things for

544
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,520
the first time.
So everybody in one of the

545
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:08,000
things that is a mistake about
discoveries is they're told

546
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,960
retrospectively and all the
warts are ironed out

547
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,360
retrospectively.
And it isn't just corporate

548
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:19,000
speak, it's just human nature.
So if expression discovery

549
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,600
happens under such high
uncertainty, nothing like the

550
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,960
rest of the mining chain that
when we look back on it, like

551
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,680
orders of magnitude higher
uncertainties, What we do, we

552
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,960
solve for uncertainty.
But what people don't realize is

553
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,600
it's just full of moments of
absolute indecision.

554
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,800
Decision paralysis is the norm
in this business.

555
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,440
And so it's easy to not act.
So someone like Bennett knows

556
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,320
how to go through those moments.
Someone like Creasy knows how to

557
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,040
hire the right people who go
through those moments.

558
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,800
Yeah.
And I learned, you know, and I

559
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,760
actually learned this from Ahmed
during the podcast because we've

560
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,480
spent a lot of time together
over the years.

561
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,040
Ahmed has a tendency to act
before I do.

562
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,040
We've had this conversation many
times.

563
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:06,560
And we can tell some stories
about this.

564
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,120
And he solves for these problems
and it's taught me.

565
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:13,000
So now I spend a bit of time,
probably over overly talking the

566
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,480
talk.
Nowadays I walk the talk way

567
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,920
more than talking the talk.
Does this, does this speak to a

568
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,480
a fundamental differing of
philosophy that that came out of

569
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,120
the WMC camps, By the way, like
when we've we've had a

570
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,960
conversation about this, the,
the camp that was the, the the

571
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,800
doers and the camp that was the
the thinkers.

572
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,040
Do you think it's related?
I, I mean, we, we've had this

573
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,920
conversation before around like,
yeah, like, I think like, I

574
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,120
mean, I like, again, like, you
know, this is also, I think, you

575
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:43,880
know, before you kind of jump
in, like you asked about like

576
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:48,520
what, what also changed is I
also, you know, like I also had

577
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,720
a pretty immature view about
like, you know, the culture I

578
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,680
say like in WMC, like the
exploration culture in WMC,

579
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:55,880
right?
Like I had a pretty immature

580
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,600
view about how like what made
that culture work?

581
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,000
And also talking to someone like
Bennett, you know, like he, he

582
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,200
gave us a lot more about what
that culture looked like, you

583
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,560
know, like, because he wasn't,
you know, like even though I

584
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,160
think he desperately probably
wanted to be, he wasn't part of

585
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,720
the like the technical kind of
group in that sense.

586
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,440
Yeah.
He was more the doer and so and

587
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,480
then that, I think, I think that
worked in his favor, but it also

588
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,960
irritated other people inside
the organization, which is why

589
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,680
he didn't kind of fit right.
So, yeah, so I think in a

590
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,120
nutshell, yeah, that difference
between the thinker and the

591
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:32,320
doer, I got completely different
lessons out of what Bennett did

592
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,920
in the sense that Bennett just
did shit right and you go, okay,

593
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,000
well, you can sit around and
think as much as you can, but at

594
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,680
some point you just got to go do
things right.

595
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,400
So, you know, so and in that
process, yeah, you're going to

596
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,080
get things wrong.
But you know, like on the whole

597
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:50,240
you like, yeah, it's a yeah.
Like I always ask this question

598
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,880
like in order to find islands,
you know, you got to get wet

599
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,400
first, right?
Like you got to go into the

600
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,640
ocean at some point.
And that's kind of the idea that

601
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,920
I kind of got out of it.
So we we actually talked about

602
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:03,600
this in with John Van about the
concept of building things as

603
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,360
you go.
But it's very easy to say those

604
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:11,960
words and way more difficult to
actually do it to commit to

605
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,920
something that you don't fully
know how is going to turn out.

606
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,320
And that's the kind of world
that we live in.

607
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,520
And one of the beauties of let's
go with Julian Malnick.

608
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,440
We'll go with Bennett from the
star.

609
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,120
Is that confident to start the
process when you don't know

610
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:29,080
where you're going?
Now, this is what makes it

611
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,760
really hard in the corporate
world or even with the investor

612
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,000
world is if I phrase it like
that, that sounds nonsense, but

613
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,480
it is in fact the problem.
The problem is some of the most

614
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:46,520
meaning thing, things that
happen require you to turn 5050

615
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,040
decisions into 5149.
They require a level of optimism

616
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,840
and uncertainty that is nothing
like the rest of the mining

617
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,040
value chain.
And one of the things that I

618
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:02,000
think I learned through the
podcast is we have lost the

619
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,120
ability to treat mineral
expression as a completely

620
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,720
discreet and separate challenge
to the rest of the mining value

621
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,520
chain because we've lumped it
all in, because we are, they are

622
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,360
the client, because it is one
process, because we are funded

623
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,280
by them.
And we have allowed ourselves to

624
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,360
not be brave enough to stand up
and say, hey, wait a minute, we

625
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,960
are nothing like this in terms
of personality styles and

626
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,840
drivers.
What's the special source that

627
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,560
makes us drive is X?
And we should be in a world

628
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,560
where we can live inside the
both organizations with vastly

629
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,000
different diversity, cognitive
diversity.

630
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,520
Now, it's all well and good to
say that.

631
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,240
Try doing that inside a
corporation.

632
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,400
It's actually quite challenging.
But that is the challenge and

633
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,600
part of the reason we're getting
our ass kicked by, let's call it

634
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,120
autocratic countries.
It's because the more and more

635
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,520
people you involve in the
decision making process, the

636
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,800
harder everyone's going to get.
And we have to solve for that

637
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,800
question.
We have to solve for that

638
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,680
because if you want a democratic
way of doing all this, why are

639
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,280
you asking why Friedland and
Bennett and and Creasy and you

640
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,840
name it are more successful?
They're making those really,

641
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,400
really hard decisions and you're
not.

642
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,600
You, you also wrote not too long
ago, I think you posted on, on

643
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,120
LinkedIn about this, about a
sort of decline in exploration

644
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,760
across the, the Western world.
And that's not limited to

645
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,040
mineral resource exploration.
Why?

646
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:38,000
Why do you think that is?
So I think one of the things

647
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,960
that I've learnt across this
process and, and the podcast

648
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,680
helps because you got to talk to
a lot of other people and bounce

649
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,960
ideas about this, is that most
of our issues on a daily basis

650
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,440
are what I would broadly call
behavioural.

651
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,200
And I'll actually challenge
anybody who's listening to this,

652
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,320
who's an exploration.
As scientists, we tend to solve

653
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,360
problems with science.
We tend to look at it through a

654
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,200
scientific lens.
As investors, we tend to solve

655
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,920
things through our finance.
But actually, what are the

656
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,400
problems you are dealing with on
a day-to-day basis?

657
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:15,280
I would say nearly 100% of mine,
and I'll challenge anyone else,

658
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,520
these problems are behavioural.
That is, why are people doing

659
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,720
things like this?
So let's go for a concrete

660
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,400
example.
Why do people believe that

661
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,960
advanced projects are low risk?
Because they have more

662
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,800
information.
I know John's mentioned this,

663
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,640
but it's absolutely ridiculous.
It's just not the case in 99.99%

664
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,240
of the situations.
This is really, really poor way

665
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,960
to run a business, I don't
think.

666
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,160
I think it's that people aren't
thinking this through.

667
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,800
They're just doing what everyone
else says.

668
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,360
That might be offensive to some,
but it doesn't make any sense to

669
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,800
me.
The words you're saying are this

670
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,000
is low risk.
It's like, no, no, this is

671
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,000
highest risk thing I can think
of to do in the industry.

672
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,400
We are clearly talking past each
other here.

673
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,120
We are clearly not talking the
same language.

674
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,000
Maybe it's semantic.
Whatever it is, we are not

675
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,720
communicating because I don't
understand what you're talking

676
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,640
about.
I really don't understand.

677
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,120
Yeah.
And I think this is, yeah, it's

678
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,400
a good point.
Like, yeah, this is another

679
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,240
thing that we often talked
about.

680
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,640
And this is like one of the
things that we wanted to get out

681
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:27,920
of certain interviews often was
this, you know, like this

682
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,040
fuzziness about why people
couldn't go and kind of do

683
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,400
something right, that they, you
know, like, what was the

684
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,480
barrier?
Why it kind of kind of got to

685
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,720
that, Yeah.
When you look at, you know, like

686
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,240
certain successful people, like,
you know, we've had, like, Chuck

687
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,440
Fitki, I think was the same.
You know, like you Bennett would

688
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,480
obviously be the same.
You know, like all of these

689
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:46,960
individuals.
You kind of like, Malnick was a

690
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,440
classic one, right?
Like Julian Malnick.

691
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,440
Yeah.
Like he developed a company

692
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,880
because he'd read the story of
the Glomar Explorer, you know,

693
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,320
like this ship that went out and
explored the, you know, the

694
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,200
bottom of the ocean.
And so he like that, that's all

695
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,280
it took for him to go and start
a company about deep sea mining

696
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,720
because he read a book where he
was, I think it's 14 or

697
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,440
something.
I don't know, it was a teenager,

698
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,160
right?
And you go, man, like his

699
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,920
threshold was pretty low, right.
And so and then and obviously,

700
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,720
you know, like we have sat in,
you know, you, you know, I have

701
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,400
sat in the same organisations.
And we would go and sometimes

702
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,640
look at, you know, like, how
come we didn't do that?

703
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,960
And it's, and it's because, yes,
somewhere along the line,

704
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,280
someone has set a threshold that
was so artificially high that we

705
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,840
were never going to do it
because it was easier to say no

706
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,640
to not doing it than to actually
go do it.

707
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,960
Yeah.
Malnik started a deep sea mining

708
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,280
company because he had a a
childhood kind of dream about

709
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,720
the global explorer.
It's fascinating.

710
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,440
So that sounds romantic.
And that's, to answer your

711
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:52,160
question properly, exploration
is actually a universal

712
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,000
biological trait.
We don't really think about it

713
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,960
like this because we work in
mineral expression.

714
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,240
And all I've been trying to do
is get people to realize that

715
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,480
this is a universal trait for
all biology.

716
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,640
And I can give you hundreds of
examples.

717
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,239
And as a result, there are many
things that we know and learn.

718
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,120
And so it's very clear that the
world is backing away from this.

719
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,000
We could go into why because
it's free.

720
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,080
One of it's fairly logical.
So let's throw one example up.

721
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,120
If I give you access to
absolutely everything you've

722
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,800
ever wanted, every piece of
information you think you

723
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,280
wanted, then you are going to
react to that information.

724
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,199
You can maybe try and curate
that information, but you're

725
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:36,960
going to be swamped.
Let me phrase it another way.

726
00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:41,560
You are distracted.
You are distracted by volume of

727
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,520
data, not necessarily volume of
knowledge.

728
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,239
Let me tell you that most of the
things you need in mineral

729
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,159
expression are not written down.
They're 100% tacit.

730
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,880
So when we see people going AI
route, we see people with a

731
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,640
possession with GPT, you're
like, you are philosophically

732
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,840
and biologically not aligned
with what needs to be done.

733
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,080
You have gone down a path and I
understand why.

734
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,480
It's like my phone.
My phone just gives me the

735
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,200
content that I it knows I want
to to see.

736
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,000
That's happening to all of us
and it's getting worse and

737
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,920
worse.
Now everybody at this table

738
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,160
knows this is the case.
The real challenge is not what

739
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,040
I've just said.
It's actually how you deal with

740
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,160
it.
But the reality is we're

741
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,800
avoiding.
So why would we avoid something?

742
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,600
So let's make it a honeybee.
Let's make something a little

743
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,640
bit more concrete.
You're a honeybee and you want

744
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,120
to go off and find some some.
Honeybee part is the more

745
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:40,520
concrete part for people.
I never said it wasn't, so

746
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,640
actually just a detail on that a
lot of people got.

747
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,240
That one of the Modern Family
like famous code.

748
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,000
It's like, it's like standing in
the Meadow with a ladder and

749
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,560
it's like, and how big was the
mouse?

750
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:50,840
It's like, well, it was as big
as a car.

751
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,160
And he's like, how can a mouse
be as big as a car?

752
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,160
He's like you're standing in the
middle in a Meadow on a ladder

753
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:57,480
with a mouse.
You're like, that's when you

754
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,960
want to play logic police like
this is another time.

755
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,600
So people, I am an abstract kind
of guy and and McHale, who's a

756
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,080
friend of ours who is actually
an abstract kind of guy who was

757
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,160
always going, Steve, you're way
too abstract.

758
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,560
I mean, that's not good coming
from McHale.

759
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,280
That's what.
So why would you go abstract?

760
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,840
It's to either illustrate a
point using language that's

761
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:23,840
bigger than my expertise or my
niche is to try and make it a

762
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,400
common language.
And the other one is because the

763
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,920
problem, it might be higher
level.

764
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,880
So we sit there, this
conversation about why is

765
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,160
expression declining.
The easy way to answer is to get

766
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,440
talk about financing.
And these things are real.

767
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,280
But you know what, there's
several levels below the actual

768
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,840
problem.
I'll give you an illustration.

769
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,280
If the problem was strictly
financing, why is expression

770
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,280
declining all the way through
the value chain from majors to

771
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,480
juniors?
It's many things that are

772
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,080
broken.
It's many elements that are not

773
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,040
going right.
It's actually a lot higher level

774
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,800
problems.
And the financing is a

775
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,680
derivative problem.
And if you want to solve these

776
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,240
problems, sometimes you've got
to get them up there.

777
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,000
And so when people say, oh,
you're being too abstract, it's

778
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:13,480
like, that's why I'm not going
to apologize because I know that

779
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:19,160
I need to somehow get people to
listen to these more abstract

780
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:20,880
concepts, concepts like the
honeybee.

781
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,480
So the honeybee, if the honeybee
doesn't go off and find new

782
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:29,160
resources, he's going to die.
OK, There is nothing that can be

783
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:30,760
done.
It's a biological need to

784
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,440
explore.
Now, that seems rather a serious

785
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,440
way to take this conversation,
to imply that mineral explorers

786
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:38,440
are going to die.
But it's clearly true.

787
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,040
Exploration is a need, and it
has to be balanced against

788
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,520
exploitation, which in this case
we could call the actual mining.

789
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,200
They're different.
So there's only a scout bee that

790
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,400
heads off.
The scout bee heads off and does

791
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,560
all the uncertainty of finding
the next series of results,

792
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,160
comes back, does a little waggle
dance, tells everyone else, and

793
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,120
then come the resource drones.
That's actually how the whole

794
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,040
process works.
That's the same as glial cells

795
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,640
in your brain.
Every biological life form, I

796
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,880
mean it, every one of them.
If you stop exploring, you don't

797
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,160
find new things.
If I keep telling you you've got

798
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,880
a source of honey and I keep
supplying it on your phone all

799
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:23,480
the time, you will never leave
for the new resource site.

800
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:28,280
You will never save the hive.
And that is what's going on.

801
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,240
We don't need to.
And it's always been a

802
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:35,000
biological need.
Exploration is a biological

803
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:36,720
need.
And I think.

804
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,480
You know, and so now you get a
window into the conversations we

805
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,200
used to have before we did.
Yeah.

806
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,120
Like Steve would go on these
abstract things and like, I

807
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,920
would walk out going, what the
hell we were talking about at

808
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,120
the end, you know, like, how's
that?

809
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,920
Like, how can I condense that
into a podcast episode out of

810
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,200
that?
You know, like, can we go into

811
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,920
your honeybee out of that?
But yeah, like, I mean, one of

812
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,440
the things that we like, you
know, like it's it's always

813
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,560
interesting when when people
always ask me like, you know,

814
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,320
like, why is exploration so bad
now?

815
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,520
Right.
And I think, yeah, So like what

816
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,000
we wanted to do, and I don't
know how successfully we did it,

817
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,600
right, but we wanted to go
through the gears, right, to say

818
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:15,080
that, you know, the obvious
thing is that there's like a

819
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,200
capability and a finance
problem, right?

820
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,080
Like, yeah, like we don't, we
probably don't have the right

821
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,840
amount of capability inside
companies to to properly explore

822
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,760
and we don't have the finances
to kind of do it right.

823
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,080
Like that.
That's I think the immediate

824
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,720
thing.
Then you can go, I think all the

825
00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:32,520
way to the other end of the
abstract and go, well, you know,

826
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:37,480
like, are we like culturally or
like socially in a, in a, in an

827
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,200
abstract way?
Are we culturally and socially

828
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,080
in a point where we just not
value exploration the same way

829
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,040
as we value exploitation, right,
Because that that could be the

830
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,120
other things.
And so when we like, you know,

831
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,320
we would like dissect these kind
of like these topics on our

832
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,520
podcast, we were like, well, how
can we go?

833
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,720
How can we condense something
really big into something small?

834
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,800
And how can we have something
small and show how it impacts on

835
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:01,880
something greater?
All right.

836
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,440
And, and I think like
exploration kind of sits in the

837
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,120
sense I'm not sure.
Like, like my personal belief is

838
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,160
I don't think it's there's one
or the other.

839
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,960
I think that the finance
problem, I think yeah, is a

840
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,600
small thing, but I think it
leads to a bigger thing where

841
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,880
you know, like you're.
If you're someone that wants to

842
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,880
go explore, you're probably not
incentivized to kind of start an

843
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,520
exploration company because
you're more incentivized to

844
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,520
start a exploitation company.
So you yourself change your

845
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,520
skill set to go down that path,
right?

846
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,280
Like, yeah, like there's no
like, and you see this in like,

847
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:33,960
it's not just exploration.
Like, you know, like I play

848
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,400
around in the startup space and
you're finding it in startups as

849
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,080
well, right?
That they like they, you know,

850
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,440
like there's now a completely
different shift in like, I'll

851
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:43,600
give you an example.
Like, you know, there was a

852
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,960
pretty well known rule that in
order to get to like a Unicorn,

853
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,200
a billion dollar company, it
would take you X number of years

854
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,440
and that X was a large number,
like 7 to 10 years, right, to

855
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,720
get to it.
And then there's now there's

856
00:40:55,720 --> 00:40:59,200
belief that spread out because
of the like the success of some

857
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,200
large software companies early
on that you can get to a Unicorn

858
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,200
in two to three years, that you
can get a billion dollar

859
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,880
company, right?
So now when you go to investors,

860
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,240
obviously investors will want to
invest into a billion dollar

861
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:15,880
company, right?
So they have now actively chosen

862
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,400
to believe the part that it can
be done in two to three years,

863
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,320
when in fact, it's actually
going to take 7 to 10 years to

864
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,400
get get to that level, right.
And for example, Amazon, you

865
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,160
know, like lost money for 1718
years before it got to a point

866
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,040
where actually turned turned a
profit.

867
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,760
It's so all of these kind of
things.

868
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,440
So when I look at exploration,
you know, like one of the

869
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,360
narratives I think that we have
misled people on is that I, I

870
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,440
think we have sold it as a short
term endeavour and it never was,

871
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,280
It was always a long term
endeavour.

872
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,200
It always takes a while.
Whether that's technically,

873
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,760
whether that's commercially
like, however you want to look

874
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,120
at it, it was always a long term
endeavour.

875
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,800
And we have sold it as a short
term endeavour.

876
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,000
And so now we have created this
malaise where everyone thinks

877
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,920
that, oh, it's only going to
take like 3 years to go find a

878
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,320
Greenfield discovery.
Well, that's never going to be

879
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,640
the case, right?
Yeah, to say what you've said in

880
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,480
different words, which is
something I think you've spoken

881
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,800
about Steve and Ahmad we've
touched on previously.

882
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,680
Steve, you spoke about Nurulsk
being discovered over a space of

883
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,960
decades.
It's bit by bit by bit, Ahmed.

884
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,920
We've spoken about Escondida.
The Escondida we know 40 plus

885
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,240
years later is not what they
first discovered when they put

886
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:28,560
those.
It's gone through like 18

887
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,760
expansions or whatever it is.
You get to the size that it is

888
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,040
now.
So you need to see something

889
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,560
like a vicuna or whatever what
Filo did and similar type

890
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,360
projects and have the sort of
vision in a sense and the

891
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,880
patience to your point that
acknowledge that this takes

892
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,120
time.
Yeah, I just, I just think it's,

893
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,840
you know, like when I, like I
obviously sat inside companies,

894
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:50,880
I sat on the investor side of
the idea.

895
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,000
Like I think this is the, the,
the, the message that I find

896
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,960
that we have misled people on
really grossly is that, you

897
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,080
know, like even technical people
kind of do it.

898
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,560
You know, like you look at like
the Russians, like, you know,

899
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,720
like the Russians did.
I like as part of this, like

900
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,480
Nurul's talk that I'll do, I'll
talk about how many expeditions

901
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,240
they did, right?
They like between the time that

902
00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:15,960
they first found coal in the
time of peninsula to the point

903
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,720
where they found talanac, which
is the big deposit now, you

904
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:22,400
know, they were somewhere on the
order of 112 different

905
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:27,040
expeditions, right, over years.
And so, so 100.

906
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,680
So let's transfer that into an
expiration program, right?

907
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,920
They had 112 expiration programs
to get to to that discovery over

908
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,600
a period of 42 years.
I think it was right.

909
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:42,640
So, so why do we have this
perception that you can go find

910
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,320
Talmac or something like that in
the new area in three years?

911
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,880
I mean, what lunatic has come up
with this concept, right?

912
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:55,160
And so and now like, and and I
get it that year, like if I'm in

913
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,440
the company and I was in the
junior expiration company, we

914
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,520
sell the dream that, you know,
like, oh man, next program, it's

915
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,560
going to tell us exactly what we
need to know, right?

916
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,320
It's not it's not gonna like
maybe it might, right?

917
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,160
There's a small percentage.
It might, but.

918
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,240
It's the instant gratification
from all that swiping.

919
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,120
Yeah, I think so.
I mean, like, I don't know,

920
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,040
like, yeah, maybe that's a good
way to put it, right?

921
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:18,760
Like we're doing the instant
gratification of swipe left,

922
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,560
swipe right on exploration
programs now.

923
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:25,120
Let's turn this around because
this is where I've been going in

924
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:30,360
the last few years outside of
the podcast is times.

925
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:35,040
I actually think it's the issue.
And as you've pointed out, I

926
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,440
think technical people don't
even fully appreciate how long

927
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,360
it takes to do these things.
So I don't think you can do

928
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:46,880
meaningful exploration as a
result when there are retail

929
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,080
investors involved.
OK, be cool.

930
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,400
As soon as you've got people
with that sort of mentality,

931
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,400
things have to be way more
concrete.

932
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,840
And that's causing people to go
this advanced project rate

933
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,720
because they think that means
concrete or closer to being a

934
00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:04,040
mine.
Of course it doesn't.

935
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,560
Most of them are further away.
That's the that's the misleading

936
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,880
part that I don't know how that
I don't understand.

937
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,360
So people think Greenfield's
exploration will take too long.

938
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,440
So let's turn this around and
go, why isn't a community?

939
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:24,080
Don't we accept that the world
is what it is, it's changed and

940
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,600
the we all have phones and we
all have social media and we are

941
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:32,480
all on the ADHD spectrum.
So why don't we all accept this

942
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,280
and now turn back towards us and
say, how do we change mineral

943
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:41,040
expression to do this faster?
How do we find, let's go for a

944
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,920
really radical one?
How do we find neuroscan 3 years

945
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,560
And the standard answer to that
should be can't be done.

946
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,440
Welcome to the challenge.
Welcome.

947
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,360
Why should we we talk about we
aren't recruiting the best and

948
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,880
the brightest.
Well, one of them is an image

949
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,520
problem, but I actually still
think that isn't even the high

950
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,640
enough level.
If you want the best and

951
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,360
brightest, show me the
challenge.

952
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,400
Show us the challenge for why
this it is.

953
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,280
Put something in front of them.
If the critical minerals,

954
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,560
critical metals theme is correct
and we aren't going to find

955
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,760
enough copper, and we can have
that argument, but say we need

956
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,400
to find these really big new
deposits that'll lead us into

957
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:29,440
the next century, then we are
not going to make it by working

958
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,520
business as usual.
We need a transition into a

959
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,080
fundamentally different style of
mineral expression.

960
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,120
And Ahmad's looking at me like,
do you really think you could do

961
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,040
this in three years?
No, but I do think that's the

962
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,040
direction we should be going.
I mean, yeah, that's this is an

963
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:52,280
important question, right?
Like if, if, if the question is

964
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,160
that we need to find the risk in
three years, then the way we

965
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:56,720
operate is not how we should be
operating.

966
00:46:56,720 --> 00:47:00,840
Correct.
You gotta change the way.

967
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,200
It's like me saying I want a six
pack, but I'm never gonna go to

968
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,680
the gym.
Like at some point I'm gonna

969
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,960
have to change the way that I
operate to in order to get the

970
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,760
fitness level that I need.
And that I think is like, I

971
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,040
think we talk about the fact
that people say like, yeah, like

972
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,080
we're going to find the risk in
in three years and we're going

973
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:19,800
to do it by drilling 1 hole a
year.

974
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,480
Exactly.
You know, like, that's insane.

975
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,440
Like, that's not going to like,
you know, like, so on one hand

976
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:26,840
you're telling me the story, but
your behaviour is actually

977
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,600
eliciting a completely different
outcome.

978
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,920
Is that word again behaviour?
So I think this is the problem.

979
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,240
There's just a disconnect from
what we're capable of doing and

980
00:47:35,240 --> 00:47:38,520
what we end up doing.
So actually, if you listen to

981
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,120
someone like John, you listen to
there's just so many words of

982
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,120
wisdom and what he talked about
and you're like, is that

983
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,240
translating on the ground?
And the question, that's a

984
00:47:48,240 --> 00:47:51,400
rhetorical question.
The question is, why is it not?

985
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,080
Why is it not translating?
And the answer is, we've evolved

986
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,280
from prospecting.
It's a real evolution, but we're

987
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,400
transitioning into like another
world.

988
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:08,120
And that world is a massive lift
in expectations, technologies

989
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,960
and capability.
And that's quite scary and.

990
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,600
Even on an organizational level,
I think that they just never

991
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,920
this understand, like, you know,
like I think it's easy to say

992
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,640
that, you know, this message is
out there and you can choose

993
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,440
which one you want to like,
which one you want to digest and

994
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:24,720
which ones you don't want to
digest.

995
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,160
But yeah, even in an
organization, I find like

996
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,600
there's this like the right hand
or talking to the to the left

997
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,200
hand kind of thing where like,
yeah, like I remember, you know,

998
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,520
we were both in an organization.
You can go check out which

999
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,040
organization was in our LinkedIn
profile.

1000
00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:38,760
But yeah, like where we would be
like, we want to find a world

1001
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,160
class porphyry deposit.
Yeah.

1002
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,960
And our own internal like, yeah,
analysis show that it would cost

1003
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,400
somewhere between like 100 to
$200 million to find one.

1004
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,200
Yeah.
And then our greenfields

1005
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,120
exploration budget to find a
world class porphyry deposit was

1006
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:57,000
$4 million.
Like, I mean, clearly the guy

1007
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,840
that sits on the other end of
the the dog bone that I sit on

1008
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,440
on the desk is telling me that
it's going to cost us $200

1009
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,120
million to get there and you're
giving me 4.

1010
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,400
I mean that, that that's just, I
mean, that's a strategy built on

1011
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:10,600
just luck.
Like, yeah, it's.

1012
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,640
Built on hope.
So yeah, back to your point,

1013
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,120
which is really, you know, we
want to find these special

1014
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,880
deposits.
So you mentioned FILO or we

1015
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,240
could go back to the Neurilsk
and stuff, not all.

1016
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:27,160
So let's rephrase this.
It's an axiom.

1017
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,240
So in other words, it's a
fundable belief that I have

1018
00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:31,920
that's different to a lot of
other people.

1019
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:36,080
Those deposits are not bigger
versions of smaller deposits.

1020
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,960
And as a result, they require
different mindsets and it can

1021
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:40,560
fundamentally different
approaches.

1022
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,920
So you can't just turn up to any
random deposit and turn it into

1023
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,400
the Nexnarelsk or turn it into
the next ESCON data.

1024
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,880
It requires A dedicated act.
A lot of people think that's

1025
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,040
just too hard to do, but I'll
tell you what's really hard to

1026
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:57,760
do.
It's really hard to find

1027
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,440
something like that without
doing it.

1028
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,640
That's the biggest problem that
we've got.

1029
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,360
So if you don't, and this is
another one of my abstract

1030
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,760
moments, if Columbus doesn't
leave Lisbon, he's got no chance

1031
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,800
of finding America or whatever
he finds.

1032
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,080
It just isn't possible.
That's what we learned from the

1033
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,120
podcast as well, from Bennett
and these people.

1034
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:22,240
A lot of people are saying
they're doing something and

1035
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:26,360
they're never leaving the port
because maybe they don't know

1036
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:30,600
how to or maybe they disagree
with that axiom that I started

1037
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,600
with, which is that these are
different.

1038
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,560
Maybe they go no, no, maybe mine
could be different.

1039
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,520
Sure, serendipity is a genuine
real thing in discovery.

1040
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:49,000
But if you keep turning up to
the same abused flower beds and

1041
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:55,360
hoping for an A real discovery
to drive the hive you driving,

1042
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,160
you're making this really,
really hard on yourself from a

1043
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,800
business perspective.
You are actually strategically

1044
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,840
dropping down the probability of
success and the ROI.

1045
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,600
You are, and you don't know it,
but you are making this so much

1046
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,080
harder for a return than you
need to.

1047
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:14,920
Yeah, to get to the same goal,
yeah.

1048
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,920
I mean, I think this is where
like, you know, like, I think

1049
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,800
your question, like, you know,
like what's kind of the like the

1050
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,400
ailments in in exploration.
So I think I think that's kind

1051
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,600
of the the part is that maybe we
just don't walk the walk

1052
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,240
anymore, right?
Like we're not really, you know,

1053
00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:32,640
like we're because maybe we've
been loud into the short term

1054
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,640
malaise of like trying to do
things in in a short term

1055
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,520
period.
I mean, one of the other things

1056
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,440
that I, I now when I look back
at all the content that we

1057
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,360
created, you know, like one of
the things I would do a lot,

1058
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,480
something I would do differently
is really work on like what are

1059
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,840
what some of the environmental
kind of aspects that that

1060
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:58,160
created certain exploration
success as opposed to not right?

1061
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,800
I mean, I think like, you know,
like, you know, you posted this

1062
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:03,800
thing about the like the
explorer's gene.

1063
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,040
And I think, you know, like, I
think there, there is that

1064
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:10,120
component in there that maybe
we're we're not you, you can

1065
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:11,600
look at that view in two ways,
right?

1066
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:15,480
Like, I always think about it
this way in that I think we are

1067
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:20,280
far more governed by our
environment that we work in than

1068
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,240
any intrinsic kind of motivation
at at times, right?

1069
00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:26,960
Like, I think there there are
very few people.

1070
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,040
And maybe that's what separates
the really successful people

1071
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,160
like Elon Musk and these guys
where their intrinsic motivation

1072
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,080
always overrides the environment
they're in.

1073
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:35,280
Always.
Yeah.

1074
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:36,880
Like if they want to do
something, they're just going to

1075
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,240
do it.
And there's also a trait that a

1076
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:43,000
lot of psychopaths have, right?
Because, you know, like, because

1077
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,600
they will not be bound by the
environment that they're in.

1078
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,520
So hence the the fine line
between, you know, you know, a

1079
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:52,400
psychopath or not like anyways,
that's why I think that exists.

1080
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,000
So when it's garnered, I think
to a positive outcome, you get

1081
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,920
the wonderful things that Elon's
done and you create, you know,

1082
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:00,960
like wonderful things.
And that's, I think what that

1083
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,040
explorer's gene kind of book was
talking about.

1084
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:07,000
I think that family had that,
you know, like intrinsic kind of

1085
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,280
thing where they will override
whatever environment they're in

1086
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,200
to get there.
Whereas I think a lot of the

1087
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,160
other times it's the environment
that kind of dictates how people

1088
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,960
behave and, and, and, and curbs
their behavior a lot.

1089
00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:19,680
And I see this a lot in the
startup world that, you know,

1090
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:23,600
like a lot of entrepreneurs want
to be, you know, they want to be

1091
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,400
the Elon Musk where they have
that intrinsic, you know,

1092
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,800
override to the environment.
But a lot of them are actually

1093
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,000
dictated by the environment they
kind of sit in.

1094
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,360
And and I always like look back
now in exploration, like, you

1095
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,120
know, like the stuff content
that we created and how would I

1096
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:40,720
look at exploration?
And one of the things that I

1097
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:44,080
often find out feel is that I
think the environment that we've

1098
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,200
created in a lot of groups,
exploration groups, is this fear

1099
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,600
of failure kind of kind of
environment in that.

1100
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,080
And I and express this and I
will define it clearly in the

1101
00:53:54,080 --> 00:54:00,960
fact that fear, like failure, is
equal to incompetence, and I

1102
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:02,160
don't think that's the case.
Not.

1103
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:03,560
Not when you're dealing with
uncertainty.

1104
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,120
Correct.
And I think that's what I think

1105
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,920
that's the from an environmental
point of view.

1106
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,640
Like if I go to like
organizations now and they ask

1107
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:16,040
me how come we're not like how
come we're struggling as a as a,

1108
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:17,920
as an organization to find
things.

1109
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:20,920
I always think about the
environment you've created.

1110
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,880
And often I find the environment
they've created is that failure

1111
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:28,920
equals incompetence.
And so hence nobody wants to to

1112
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,120
risk that.
In so many different sectors, we

1113
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,480
are very scared that the Chinese
or the East, if you like, would

1114
00:54:36,720 --> 00:54:40,640
do these things before us and
metals of mining is no different

1115
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,720
when it comes to the downstream
parts of it.

1116
00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:45,960
And I asked this question
knowing you've both worked at

1117
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:50,000
Chinese business, but do you
fear that that part of the world

1118
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,760
will has that sort of motivation
or will make these big

1119
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,440
discoveries and that becomes a
geopolitical issue?

1120
00:54:56,720 --> 00:54:57,800
Yeah.
I mean, I guess the one thing

1121
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,600
that, you know, like, like we
found in our time in MMGI mean

1122
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,320
I'll be interested in your
perspective because you

1123
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,360
obviously started much, much
higher than me in the

1124
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,040
organizational structure.
But what I found was that, you

1125
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:13,240
know, we, we had a lens that we,
we could do things longer term.

1126
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:17,720
Yeah, like so we weren't yeah,
like we weren't very like, you

1127
00:55:17,720 --> 00:55:19,720
know, we would come up with a
strategy and I I clearly

1128
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:23,120
remember like, you know, in MMG
we had a strategy and like the

1129
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:26,520
like min medals was that, you
know, you'll have seven years to

1130
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,520
execute on this and after seven
years, we'll come back and talk

1131
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:30,480
to you.
Right.

1132
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,640
So it wasn't that you know, like
on a Monday, you have a

1133
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:35,640
seven-year strategy, you know,
Thursday.

1134
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:37,000
Hey, how's the seven-year
strategy going?

1135
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,080
Right?
Like I'm, whereas I find when I,

1136
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,080
as I, when I work as a
consultant for a lot of

1137
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,640
companies, it's like, you know,
like we spend all this time

1138
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:46,960
coming up with a strategy and
then it feels like they're like,

1139
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,720
well, let's review that strategy
a month later and you're like,

1140
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:52,840
you know, like, like the ink
hasn't even dried on the

1141
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,200
strategy yet.
Like, you know, like, I don't

1142
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,360
think we need to review it.
I think we need to let some,

1143
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:00,440
some water run under the bridge.
And so, so I think that's one of

1144
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,000
the things I found when I kind
of dealt with people there was

1145
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,440
like, you know, we have a
seven-year strategy and I, I, I

1146
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,760
don't think it was, I mean, I
think they're tempered with it

1147
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,960
closer to the seven-year period.
But I think for the large part,

1148
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,640
you know, they kind of let us do
whatever we wanted to do for for

1149
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,720
a while.
So I've worked for a few foreign

1150
00:56:18,720 --> 00:56:21,360
companies and and this is a
common conversation.

1151
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:26,160
Let's, let's just be abrupt to
start with in terms of building

1152
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,880
big things.
The West is getting its ass

1153
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:35,080
kicked and we have to solve this
problem without moving towards

1154
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,640
ideology because it's actually
not really ideology.

1155
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:41,400
So it's not just that they've
got longer term plans, it's

1156
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:44,600
actually they've got an element
of autocracy, which just means

1157
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,880
they've just got a refined
decision making process.

1158
00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:49,800
And one of the reasons why this
relevant to mineral expression

1159
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,240
is the earlier you go in the
value chain, the higher the

1160
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:56,480
uncertainty, the harder the
decision making process is.

1161
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,480
Now a lot of people who are at
the other end are going to be

1162
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,520
offended by this, but I'm afraid
it's orders of magnitude harder

1163
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:04,880
to make earlier exploration
decisions.

1164
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:09,120
Remember, we start from nothing.
There is nothing more uncertain

1165
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,880
than nothing I've had.
It's not uncommon for me to get

1166
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:17,000
good geos who come and work with
me who are not capable of

1167
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,920
dealing with this.
And and so sorry to interrupt,

1168
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:21,800
but one thing I think it's
really important to know is

1169
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,200
that, you know, like you start
with nothing and then the, the

1170
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:30,640
incoming information can look
the same, but the payoff it

1171
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,040
could have could be phenomenal,
right?

1172
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,480
Like and and and and I think
that's always a challenge,

1173
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:37,840
right?
Like, you know, like you look at

1174
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,280
an early stage project and you
guys always ask me this stuff,

1175
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,520
You know, previously when I've
been on here, you talk about

1176
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:44,360
like, you know, like what
project is is going to be the

1177
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,760
next big project, right?
And and sometimes like, you

1178
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,160
know, they look the same, right?
Like there, there's something

1179
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,440
like, you know, like, and then I
think that's hard.

1180
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:55,720
Like I think that's hard to
communicate out to go, well, why

1181
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,640
would you believe in this and
not this, right?

1182
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,040
And and that and then really it
comes down to really belief,

1183
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,640
right?
Like you have some tacit

1184
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,440
knowledge or some like intrinsic
kind of thing that says, you

1185
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,040
know what, I'm going to back
this one over this one, right?

1186
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,360
And that's, I don't think that's
the easiest thing to write in a

1187
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,840
memo to someone and say I
believe in this.

1188
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:17,720
Right.
No, when we're trying to

1189
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:22,160
translate this from the abstract
through to say, investment

1190
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:23,840
community.
Well, it's like, you know, like,

1191
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,960
like WMC probably did this where
like Roy Woodall would have the

1192
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:28,880
like the, I guess the
relationship with the people

1193
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,480
that were in certain things
where they would go.

1194
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:31,960
Yeah, like, I'm going to go and
talk to Steve.

1195
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:33,960
And if Steve says it, I'm going
to back him.

1196
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:38,320
What that is, that's trust, and
the problem with bigger, more

1197
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,680
democratic organisations is
scale just doesn't trust,

1198
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,640
doesn't scale.
And that's actually we're

1199
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,680
solving for.
So the Chinese, as you

1200
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:50,000
mentioned, have solved that
element by taking it away.

1201
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,520
And yeah, and so we're we're
offended, we're offended or the

1202
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:56,360
Russians, we're offended by that
comment.

1203
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:58,360
But actually it is a way of
getting stuff done.

1204
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:00,680
Actually, Elon Musk has taken
that his way as well.

1205
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:03,680
The reason why he's successful
is because he solved that

1206
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,120
problem.
Let's let's let's come closer to

1207
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:08,640
home.
Why is Mark Creasy or Robert

1208
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:13,280
Friedland successful?
I honestly want everybody to

1209
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:17,840
have a go at that because Robert
Friedland has found multiple

1210
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,480
world class true tier one ore
bodies.

1211
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:24,400
You cannot ignore that there's
some secret source going on

1212
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:26,280
there.
And so if you're inside a big

1213
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,240
corporation that's doing
nothing, look over the the fence

1214
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,080
and ask yourself what's going on
there.

1215
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:36,360
Well, well, one element is that
Robert, and he's probably

1216
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,920
sounding abrupt, has the ability
to make these decisions.

1217
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,840
It is entirely about the ability
to make a decisions under very

1218
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,080
high uncertainty.
So what do we need to do there?

1219
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:49,960
Well, the first one is own that
own the fact that not everybody

1220
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:55,040
is capable and that it isn't
actually even a critique of your

1221
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,760
capability.
So actually let's use a real

1222
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,320
material example inside geology.
The difference between an early

1223
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:05,840
stage expression geologist and a
mind geologist is more than

1224
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,160
where they work.
It's actually.

1225
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:12,960
Their comfort with uncertainty.
Let's let's put make the word

1226
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:14,480
uncertainty a little bit more
abstract.

1227
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:18,640
Uncertainty, phrased in common
parlance, is anxiety.

1228
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:22,360
The 2 are synonymous.
If you're under high

1229
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:24,800
uncertainty, you are under high
anxiety.

1230
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:29,320
So you can now see why it's not
normal to deal with this kind of

1231
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:32,000
level uncertainty.
It's not normal that everybody

1232
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:32,920
wouldn't.
It's sorry.

1233
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,200
It is normal that everyone will
want to avoid it.

1234
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,520
So why is everyone avoiding it?
Because it's human nature.

1235
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:41,760
So what kind of special
circumstances are required to

1236
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,520
solve it?
Well, autocracy is actually one

1237
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,280
way.
Let's try and think outside the

1238
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,480
box.
Let's assume that the world

1239
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,520
doesn't want us to go down an
ideological based solving

1240
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:54,680
mechanism.
Let's say it just wants to

1241
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:58,440
improve something.
So why is it taking too long to

1242
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:00,960
build like Sydney's airport?
So why is it?

1243
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:03,240
Why are these big things taking
so long?

1244
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:04,800
Why are they running over
budget?

1245
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:09,360
It's the same problem we're
running into high uncertainty

1246
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:12,440
and we're getting more people
involved to make the decision,

1247
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:16,640
more and more people who are
uncomfortable with the

1248
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,480
uncertainty of making decisions.
So what's this?

1249
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:24,360
What's special about Chuck 50?
Maybe he goes straight through

1250
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:26,360
the uncertainty without even
considering it.

1251
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:30,600
That might even be insulting,
but that is one way to deal with

1252
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:32,560
it.
That's no different to the

1253
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:37,640
Chinese going I'll solve it. 10
year plan, autocracy, problem

1254
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,840
solved.
Solve the problem that you've

1255
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:46,080
got, but don't complain about
that you can't solve the

1256
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,080
problem, because that is
actually the problem that when

1257
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:53,120
choosing not to solve what seems
like an intractable problem,

1258
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:55,920
I've got 5 layers of management
to go through.

1259
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:01,120
Well, that is my challenge. 5
layers of management.

1260
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:04,240
You know what happens if I've
got a good idea for the next

1261
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:06,760
Neurilsk with a massive
discovery?

1262
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,240
If it has to go through 55
layers of management without

1263
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:13,760
regressing to the mean, that's a
hell of a talking.

1264
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,800
Somebody has talked their ass
off to get through 5 layers of

1265
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:18,960
management.
The only way you get through 5

1266
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:22,320
layers of management is if the
idea is obvious.

1267
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:26,840
Or they just end up doing, doing
it without any kind of the

1268
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,200
consequence, right.
And that's the, I mean, I think

1269
01:02:29,200 --> 01:02:31,360
that's the autocratic way,
right, Where they just go.

1270
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:37,320
They take that that decision out
of other people's hands and take

1271
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,080
it upon themselves to do it.
Yeah.

1272
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,840
And I think that, I mean, like
when I met, when I met an

1273
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:45,080
interview, Chuck, like, yeah,
every time you asked him a

1274
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:46,800
question, like, why did you do
this?

1275
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:50,200
He's like, yeah, I thought it
was something I needed to solve.

1276
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:54,040
I said he just did it right.
And he's like, I'm like, you

1277
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:56,160
know, like, yeah, like, not many
people know, but I don't know

1278
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:57,760
how many people know.
I should have phrased it that

1279
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,040
way.
And that Chuck runs a really

1280
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:05,280
quite like leading edge kind of
mineral analysis lab that he is

1281
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,520
largely built I think largely by
himself.

1282
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,960
In his garage.
Yeah, like as an entity.

1283
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:13,960
And he like asking me like, why
did you build a like a mineral

1284
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,880
processing lab, analytical lab?
He's like, well, it was the one

1285
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:18,920
thing I knew how to do and I
could make money on.

1286
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:21,000
And then so he just started,
right?

1287
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:22,120
Like he just started in his
garage.

1288
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:24,480
He processed other people's
samples and then he obviously

1289
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:27,120
along the way he figured out
that there were issues in in

1290
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,400
this way.
And so he just kept building

1291
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:31,600
these things along the way.
I mean, I went and toured his

1292
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:35,080
lab like, you know, like he has
probably world renowned PhDs.

1293
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:38,840
He probably holds, holds more
patterns I think than the most

1294
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:42,720
like ALS or anything like that
because he he invests in it.

1295
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,400
They have their own software,
they have their own algorithms

1296
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:46,880
that they run all of this type
of stuff.

1297
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:49,960
He does it because he wants to
do it.

1298
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:53,320
He takes a decision out of, out
of like other people's hands

1299
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:55,360
about why like, you know, should
he do it?

1300
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,480
Should he not do it?
You know, and, and so I think to

1301
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:01,840
go back to your question about
the East and West, I think like

1302
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,720
what the East does is the, the,
the general level manager, you

1303
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,840
know, the five layers of middle
management that most people in

1304
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:12,600
the West have to go through.
They just tell these guys, you

1305
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:15,120
don't have to think, there you
go, this is what we're going to

1306
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:16,960
do.
Just make sure that you do them

1307
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:19,720
all the way to the end, right?
And then that's what they do.

1308
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:22,880
Now there is a consequence to to
that, like it's probably not the

1309
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:26,880
most efficient way of operating,
right?

1310
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:30,760
But but I think that efficiency,
you know, maybe if you translate

1311
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,640
into a a certain level of
failure rate, I think they

1312
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:35,360
accept that they're just going
to have a certain level of

1313
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,040
failure rate as they go and
they're happy to wear that

1314
01:04:38,040 --> 01:04:40,720
during the process.
Whereas I think we are paranoid

1315
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:45,080
about that level of a failure
because we have to justify like

1316
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:46,760
how we wasted the money, We're
going to waste the money

1317
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:48,640
anyways.
Why don't we waste it and learn

1318
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:52,000
something along the way rather
than having endless meetings and

1319
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:54,160
five levels of management and
wasting the money anyways?

1320
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:58,640
Let's, let's talk about the new
emerging country in the space,

1321
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:02,320
which is Saudi Arabia.
So Saudi to me is in the same

1322
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:07,360
situation as China has been.
They're starting from near 0 in

1323
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:11,520
terms of mineral expression, but
they're heavily committed and

1324
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:14,880
they bring in the best and
brightest and they're going to

1325
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,400
do it differently.
And they've committed so heavily

1326
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:21,600
to this process.
And so let's, you know, I'll ask

1327
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:24,360
you the question, who's going to
be the world's leading mineral

1328
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:28,720
explorer in inside five years?
And now it's a loaded rhetorical

1329
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:31,280
question.
That is what's required.

1330
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:34,680
And they have huge amounts of
bureaucracy.

1331
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:38,800
So this is going to be
fascinating to see how they

1332
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,840
develop this because they don't
have the same autocratic

1333
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,120
development.
They're capable of it, but they

1334
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:46,280
don't at the moment.
But but you know, they have

1335
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,240
like, I mean, I used to live in
Melbourne.

1336
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:50,680
You know, one of the joke I was
told in Melbourne is there's the

1337
01:05:50,680 --> 01:05:53,360
Westgate, like, you know,
bridge, you know, like it's

1338
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:57,280
taken 20 years for that bridge
to add 2 lanes to it.

1339
01:05:57,320 --> 01:05:59,680
You know, in that time, in that
same time the whole city of

1340
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:03,280
Dubai was built, you know, like
so an 8 million person city has

1341
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,520
been built in the same time that
we like in Melbourne and

1342
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,240
Victoria.
That's an Australian success.

1343
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:10,240
It actually got done.
Yeah, that's right.

1344
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:12,920
That is true.
That is the the positive spin

1345
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:16,480
that actually, but as someone
that used to travel across the

1346
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:20,320
bridge, did my life meaningfully
change after the the upgrade?

1347
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,440
I don't think so, right.
So and so I think like, you

1348
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:26,000
know, like the like the the
Middle East or some of the

1349
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:30,440
countries, you know, they have
taken somewhat of a like Chinese

1350
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:31,800
approach or Eastern approach and
gone.

1351
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:33,360
You know, we're going to do
this, right?

1352
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:34,320
Like we're going to build an
island.

1353
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,560
It's going to look like a palm.
We're going to do it right.

1354
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:37,880
People are going to be like,
it's insane.

1355
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:40,000
You haven't sold any land.
Yeah, but that will happen,

1356
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:41,240
right?
Because we'll build.

1357
01:06:41,240 --> 01:06:43,480
It it's extra fascinating as
well because you think about

1358
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,640
your resources and your scarcity
that you might have, and they

1359
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:50,120
have an abundance of capital
right now, but on the scarcity

1360
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:52,680
side of things, they sort of
know that their economy is going

1361
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:54,960
to change over time.
So they are desperate to

1362
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:58,000
diversify that, but that is like
a longer dated thing.

1363
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,920
So to pull pull the idea back to
having long term goals and

1364
01:07:01,920 --> 01:07:04,560
sticking to it.
Their needs, so they they need.

1365
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:06,760
So back to that biological
abstract concept.

1366
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:09,600
You know there is a need and
it's very clear.

1367
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:13,560
But the the impressive thing is
that they understand that the

1368
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:18,160
timeline isn't push of a button.
Yeah, it's not going to be like

1369
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:20,040
that's the mistake I think that
China made.

1370
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:23,200
And they have solved that as
they always do.

1371
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:26,400
But instead of discovering
resources and paying, they made

1372
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:29,200
a lot of it bad mistakes early.
They've solved the problem

1373
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,760
downstream.
And they've completely caught us

1374
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:35,840
all up with their pants down
because it's turned out to be in

1375
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:38,520
certain resources, certain
metals.

1376
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:41,400
The right call.
Absolutely.

1377
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:44,480
You know, I've been to places in
China, I've worked for a few

1378
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:46,480
times in China.
I've been to places where

1379
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:49,440
there's capital infrastructure
and no mine.

1380
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,080
So they built the capital
infrastructure when there's not

1381
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:56,400
even resources present.
And here we are scrapping and

1382
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:59,560
saving and trying to find
capital.

1383
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:03,920
Capital first before resources.
It's extreme.

1384
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,800
And it can be like to the
extreme where I remember working

1385
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:11,400
on a project where we had
intersected like sulfides, yeah.

1386
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:15,520
And I went out on my swing on
like 3 week swing out.

1387
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:20,399
By the time I came back, there
was mining equipment that had

1388
01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:22,840
been brought on site.
And I'm like, what's that?

1389
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:25,160
And they're like, oh, that's a
processing plant that that has

1390
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:26,880
been shipped down from wherever
it was shipped down.

1391
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:28,120
I'm like, what are you talking
about?

1392
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:29,640
Processing plant?
They're like, oh, you hit

1393
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:31,680
sulfides.
I'm like, yeah, we've hit

1394
01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:33,960
sulfides in like early stage
drilling.

1395
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:35,319
Like, like, what are you talking
about?

1396
01:08:35,319 --> 01:08:36,479
And they're like, yeah, well,
we've got it.

1397
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:39,240
Like, you know, you found
something, it's going to get

1398
01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:43,279
processed, right.
Like they so they like, you

1399
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:45,960
know, like now that's maybe not
the most efficient way to

1400
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:49,040
operate, right?
But but someone is taking the

1401
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:50,560
bet, right?
Someone's taking the bet that

1402
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:54,880
hey, you have something like
essentially it's a bi model like

1403
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:56,720
decision, right?
Like it's either yes or no,

1404
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:58,520
either we're going to mine this
or we're not going to mine it,

1405
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:00,880
but we have the equipment.
If the equipment's here, we'll

1406
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:03,000
mine it, right?
And then they've already kind of

1407
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:04,960
made that that decision go
forward.

1408
01:09:05,319 --> 01:09:08,800
Whereas, you know, like how many
engineering studies do we do,

1409
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:11,240
like try to decide, should it be
mine, should it not be mine,

1410
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:12,439
Should it be mine, should it not
be mine?

1411
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,319
And I'm not sure that improves
the odds and whether things get

1412
01:09:15,319 --> 01:09:18,200
mined profitably or not.
There's one other aspect I can't

1413
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:20,960
help but think of.
And Trev and I were lucky to

1414
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:24,359
lucky enough to travel to Africa
earlier in the year and, and

1415
01:09:24,359 --> 01:09:27,319
chatting with some people at
various operations, certainly

1416
01:09:27,319 --> 01:09:31,520
not Western operations.
And you know, the, the swings

1417
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:37,240
with 5 1/2 months on and and
three weeks off, it like that is

1418
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:40,040
not necessarily something we
want to aspire to here in the

1419
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:41,720
West, but it's something that
needs to be noticed.

1420
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:45,279
So it's just the point you just
your point is so important,

1421
01:09:45,279 --> 01:09:48,920
which is people are solving
problems in the way they can.

1422
01:09:49,319 --> 01:09:52,840
And our immediate reaction of
course is we don't like that.

1423
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,880
Well, the message is actually
try and find another way to

1424
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:59,440
solve the problem, not just
solve it using the same tools

1425
01:09:59,440 --> 01:10:01,600
that you've got.
Maybe we can't solve this

1426
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,640
problem.
If I go back to my time in First

1427
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:09,920
Quantum, we had everybody on
four and two rosters and they

1428
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,240
would mature to two week on and
one and everyone goes.

1429
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:15,240
That's outrageous.
Try hiring Australian.

1430
01:10:15,240 --> 01:10:18,320
One of my favorite people,
people I won't mention her name

1431
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:21,280
just to stop embarrassing her,
was an Australian who came to

1432
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:24,640
work for us.
But we put people all over the

1433
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:26,600
world.
They got real greenfields

1434
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:28,760
opportunity.
They got a chance to live the

1435
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:33,400
life, and pound for pound, they
are better geoscientists, better

1436
01:10:33,400 --> 01:10:37,920
explorers, but they did some
hard yards, but they lived the

1437
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:41,320
life we promised them
opportunities in the middle of

1438
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:45,520
Africa, chances to work in
Spain, remarkable things.

1439
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:49,720
But all you had to do was come
and live by the roster that we

1440
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:52,960
needed for the locations that we
wanted to work on.

1441
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:56,560
And anybody who didn't want to
come like, well, you don't

1442
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:59,760
really want to do this.
And of course that is

1443
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:04,320
unacceptable, but we never lost
anybody because in the end, and

1444
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:08,160
This is why I talk about
motivation, in the end, mineral

1445
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:10,480
explorers are very simple
creatures.

1446
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:14,600
You know, we are driven by the
chase.

1447
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,080
And if we're not, we're not
mineral explorers.

1448
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:21,200
We're a different form of
geologists and that's OK as

1449
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:24,760
well.
There is no judgement, but those

1450
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:30,120
who want to do this will by
months is pretty extreme but

1451
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:34,040
just adapted to what you think
is appropriate.

1452
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:38,120
What you can't do is explore
properly on a roster that's

1453
01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:41,840
close to one week on one week
off like that isn't going to

1454
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:43,760
work.
I work for a company who remain

1455
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:46,760
unnamed a few years ago and they
said we want to move to

1456
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:50,400
Greenfield's exploration and
everybody said we won't still

1457
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:52,080
live on the mine or still live
in Perth.

1458
01:11:52,080 --> 01:11:55,000
And I that's cool.
And they went, what's your words

1459
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:57,640
of wisdom?
I went can't be done and they

1460
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:01,000
went what I went, no, no, think
about it.

1461
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:05,160
It just can't be done, you know?
And I gave them various other

1462
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:06,520
pieces of advice on how to do
this.

1463
01:12:06,520 --> 01:12:09,920
But if people don't want to do
this, it's a self selecting

1464
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:13,200
criteria.
Mineral expression is not on a

1465
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,280
mind.
Mostly mineral exploration is

1466
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:18,840
this lifestyle.
If you don't want it, that's

1467
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:21,520
fine, but there are people who
want this.

1468
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:23,960
Yeah.
I mean, one of the comments I'd

1469
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:27,600
make like around your like,
yeah, like 5 months on, you

1470
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:30,160
know, as someone that like grew
up in Pakistan, like, you know,

1471
01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:34,720
like I have a different view on,
on, on that as well in that, you

1472
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:38,360
know, like when I grew up, you
know, like there was the concept

1473
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:41,880
where someone in your family
would go away for a large time.

1474
01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:44,000
Like, you know, a lot of people
in my family would go to the

1475
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:46,240
Middle East to work.
And then they were, and they

1476
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:49,800
were largely sacrifice a large
percentage of their time with

1477
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:54,680
their family.
But the the fact that they did

1478
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:57,360
it, the sacrifice they made
would actually make not just the

1479
01:12:57,360 --> 01:13:00,120
immediate family, but the wider
family much better off.

1480
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:03,600
Yeah.
So, so culturally, you know,

1481
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:07,320
like, like obviously now growing
up in the Western world, I see

1482
01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:09,560
both sides, right.
Like I see, like, you know, like

1483
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:13,760
I probably wouldn't do a 55
month roster, but I also accept

1484
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,600
why certain people would.
Yeah, like I understand the

1485
01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:20,560
sacrifice they make on the whole
actually improves lives for many

1486
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:22,280
people.
Circumstances are completely

1487
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:23,120
different.
Yeah.

1488
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:25,320
And so, yeah.
So I always think that, yeah,

1489
01:13:25,320 --> 01:13:30,680
like if I take, if I take the
lens that I live in in Perth and

1490
01:13:30,680 --> 01:13:33,840
apply it there, yeah, it seems
unreasonable to expect someone

1491
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:37,640
to work five months of the year.
But if I take the lens that that

1492
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:40,800
person sacrificing, you know, a
certain part of their their

1493
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:44,840
family life or working five
months improves their their

1494
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:47,280
family life drastically enough
where their kids have a better

1495
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:50,040
opportunity and they're, you
know, like their other family

1496
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:51,320
members have a better
opportunity.

1497
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:54,440
I don't, I don't necessarily
look at it as a negative.

1498
01:13:54,440 --> 01:13:58,160
I think, I think it's actually
like, I think it's commendable

1499
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:00,760
for them to kind of do that
aspect to kind of improve other

1500
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:05,080
people's lives in at the expense
of not improving their own in

1501
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:06,320
that sense, right.
So.

1502
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:08,760
Turn that round.
Instead of saying let's not go

1503
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:11,000
for the five months because I
think that's extreme, let's go

1504
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,800
for something like 2 weeks,
which would still be took longer

1505
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:15,640
than most of the industry.
What's it?

1506
01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:19,800
What would it take?
Instead of being defeated by the

1507
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:24,600
norm, what would it take to move
people onto 2 weak rosters?

1508
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:27,960
2 weak and one rosters as a
global explorers and everyone

1509
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:32,520
goes more money really.
I don't think so, just it's

1510
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:33,520
environmental.
Thing.

1511
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:38,040
Yeah, so I actually think it's
the it's the the reward and the

1512
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:41,520
thrill of the chase.
If I'm and that I know people

1513
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:43,880
disagree with me, I get yelled
at for this viewpoint.

1514
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,080
People are like, you're being
naive, you're being romantic,

1515
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:48,920
whatever you're trying to do.
I'm like, no, no, you know what?

1516
01:14:49,200 --> 01:14:53,000
I've mentored a lot of geos and
I talked to a lot of geos.

1517
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,520
I'm right.
I know I'm right about this.

1518
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:01,320
People want more.
We're not providing it.

1519
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:07,840
If you provide no thrill, no no
real expression and want to move

1520
01:15:07,840 --> 01:15:10,480
people on to longer, Ross says
you can fail.

1521
01:15:10,480 --> 01:15:13,880
Of course you've got to provide.
This is your word.

1522
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:16,760
And this is one of the things I
learned from Ahmad Currency.

1523
01:15:17,480 --> 01:15:20,920
You've got to provide something
to someone to motivate them to

1524
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:24,480
want to do something.
So come here and let's try and

1525
01:15:24,480 --> 01:15:27,880
find the next narels.
Now there are a bunch of people

1526
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:30,120
going, well, no, I'm going to go
to the Pilgrim, make more money.

1527
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:33,200
Fine, no judgement again, dude.
But you know what?

1528
01:15:33,480 --> 01:15:36,200
I'm actually it's it's there is
no judgement.

1529
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:38,240
They might sound like there is,
but there is no judgement.

1530
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:43,040
It really is a case of going
like people who want to do this,

1531
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:45,680
you know, let's go, let's do
this.

1532
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:48,080
But hey, you know, there's a few
limitations.

1533
01:15:48,880 --> 01:15:52,680
You know, I love my lattes and
and my and my long Max, but you

1534
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:55,440
know, we're going to have to be
making some some shittier coffee

1535
01:15:55,440 --> 01:15:57,040
for a little while and we're
going to have to do this.

1536
01:15:57,320 --> 01:15:58,840
Now.
If you don't like that, well,

1537
01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:02,760
you know, let me show you some
of my world, what where the some

1538
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:05,400
of the places I work and stuff
and I and then there'll be

1539
01:16:05,400 --> 01:16:07,320
people who are going.
Man, I really want to do that.

1540
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:10,760
I know and I know that there are
people who don't want to do that

1541
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:13,160
as well.
Good, you stay here.

1542
01:16:13,440 --> 01:16:16,640
We're going and.
I think that, I mean, you know,

1543
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:20,200
like the more, the more nuanced
conversation in here would be is

1544
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:26,920
how do you keep the people that
have that, that intrinsic drive

1545
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:32,200
to, to explore when they go
through, you know, changing

1546
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:37,240
personal or cultural.
Like, you know, like when

1547
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:39,080
they're going through a part
where they want to have kids or

1548
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:41,640
they want to have, you know,
like, how do we create the

1549
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:42,880
world?
Like how do we create the

1550
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:47,360
environment that still kind of
keeps those people engaged and,

1551
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:51,320
and not give them a job where,
you know, like they, they maybe

1552
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:54,440
get to a point where they're so
jaded that they actually go and

1553
01:16:54,440 --> 01:16:56,040
do something completely
different, right?

1554
01:16:56,040 --> 01:16:59,080
Like, yeah, like, like I'll
explain it like in my terms,

1555
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:01,240
right.
Like I like at a point in, in my

1556
01:17:01,400 --> 01:17:04,360
career, I was working a job
where I travelled 330 days on

1557
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:07,520
the road average between
somewhere between 300 to 330

1558
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:09,480
days of the year.
So 10 to 11 months I was on the

1559
01:17:09,480 --> 01:17:12,320
road right now.
Now that is a hugely

1560
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:15,840
unsustainable lifestyle to keep
if you want to do other things

1561
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:20,160
in, in your, in your career,
right, or in your life, not

1562
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:22,400
career like, like personally, if
I want to do other things, if I

1563
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:24,840
want to have a family, kids,
anything like that, that is

1564
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:30,720
hugely unsustainable.
And so, and so at one point, you

1565
01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:33,560
know, like I, like, I left the
industry, I, I stopped doing

1566
01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:36,800
those roles and I kind of feel
that desire by doing other

1567
01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:39,200
things like, you know, starting
companies or, or going and

1568
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:41,920
learning something new or
exploring something new

1569
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:44,400
cognitively rather than than
physically in that sense.

1570
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:47,960
But but what I find is that I
think they, you know, like there

1571
01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:51,960
comes a point where I think
companies are maybe not thinking

1572
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:54,120
hard enough to create an
environment where they can kind

1573
01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:57,960
of keep people doing that that
part of their life because they

1574
01:17:57,960 --> 01:17:59,560
will come back.
Like, you know, they will go

1575
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:01,360
back.
Like if I had the opportunity

1576
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:04,480
when, when my kids are a certain
age, like I would love to go

1577
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:05,520
travelling again.
I.

1578
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:06,840
Can tell you as young kids,
can't you?

1579
01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:10,640
I like you go, go, go, go do
that because, because this is

1580
01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:13,440
the part that I value now there
will be a part where I value

1581
01:18:13,440 --> 01:18:14,840
something else at, at some
point.

1582
01:18:15,480 --> 01:18:18,560
But I, I think this is where,
you know, like going back to, I

1583
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:21,240
think one of the ailments that
we have and, and This is why I

1584
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:24,640
think companies like WMC and you
know, some of the previous kind

1585
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:27,640
of companies did very well is
that they created an environment

1586
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:29,320
where they could keep people
like this.

1587
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:32,840
I remember when I first joined
WMCI worked with eight people

1588
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:36,880
and the, the shortest time span
any of them had spent inside the

1589
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:40,640
company was 22 years, which I
found fascinating, right?

1590
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:43,240
That everyone that I work with
had been there at least 2

1591
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,320
decades.
Like that's that's pretty

1592
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:47,400
unusual.
I mean, like, I don't think you

1593
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:50,840
would ever find that now.
Like that a whole group had been

1594
01:18:50,840 --> 01:18:53,480
there for two decades.
They all started as graduates.

1595
01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:54,680
Yeah.
They all went through the

1596
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:56,640
process.
They all went and did further

1597
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,480
study funded by the company,
came back, you know, went

1598
01:18:59,480 --> 01:19:02,400
through that whole process,
right down to the lady that did

1599
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:05,360
the accounting, you know, like
she started as a graduate and

1600
01:19:05,360 --> 01:19:07,440
worked all the way through in
the accounting department.

1601
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:09,560
Right.
So how did they create that

1602
01:19:09,560 --> 01:19:12,040
environment which has allowed
people to stay for that long?

1603
01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:14,600
They must have done something
once.

1604
01:19:14,600 --> 01:19:17,720
People don't spend 2 decades in
the same place unless it's good.

1605
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:22,680
Guys, I think there's sort of
limitless amounts that people

1606
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:24,240
can learn from from this
conversation.

1607
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:27,360
I've found it fantastic.
I think we should wrap it up

1608
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:32,080
with a, a question you guys have
asked a lot and I want to sort

1609
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:35,440
of serve it back to you guys.
What is starting with one H?

1610
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:40,000
Something that should stay
firmly in the industry.

1611
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:43,960
Oh dear, you were going to say
that?

1612
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:50,600
You got to give me time to think
something that needs to stay the

1613
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:53,840
training of field geology.
So one of the things that we're

1614
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:59,920
under real pressure is that
universities geoscience is in

1615
01:19:59,920 --> 01:20:03,000
decline as a university subject
globally.

1616
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:06,640
It's about the economics of
universities and the economics

1617
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:08,120
of running sciences and
universities.

1618
01:20:08,120 --> 01:20:09,640
It's got nothing to do with our
industry.

1619
01:20:10,360 --> 01:20:11,880
That's one part of a Venn
diagram.

1620
01:20:12,040 --> 01:20:15,360
There's another Venn diagram
that the industry is rising and

1621
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:19,600
needs more geoscience.
It sounds like an equation that

1622
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:22,400
can't be solved.
The way it's going to be solved

1623
01:20:22,440 --> 01:20:26,080
is to do what?
To do things differently.

1624
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:31,760
But the real risk is that people
won't get the training that they

1625
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:35,320
require because it'll be too
expensive to do so.

1626
01:20:35,480 --> 01:20:39,160
So field work has become one of
our largest costs, the cost of

1627
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:42,880
putting people into the field.
But at the moment, even with the

1628
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:46,160
promise of AI and every other
technology, you can think this

1629
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:49,560
is still a field based science.
This is still a science about

1630
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:53,120
observations and a science about
going into the field.

1631
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:58,120
We've got to keep that, even
though at the moment the

1632
01:20:58,120 --> 01:21:00,400
equation looks like we're going
to trend the wrong way.

1633
01:21:03,040 --> 01:21:09,280
I'm going to go on a similar
point to Steve's, but I'll try

1634
01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:11,000
to make it.
And I don't mean to say this

1635
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:14,160
controversially.
I actually think that like the

1636
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:16,640
idea that we should keep in
exploration is just not all

1637
01:21:16,640 --> 01:21:18,920
about the rocks.
I actually think it's about

1638
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:20,120
people.
I think it's about the

1639
01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:22,800
environment you create, the
culture, it's the relationships

1640
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:25,400
you foster.
It's all of those intangible

1641
01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:28,160
things outside of the rocks.
I get that.

1642
01:21:28,160 --> 01:21:30,080
I take your point.
I think you still have to treat

1643
01:21:30,080 --> 01:21:32,840
people like train people so they
know what the rocks are.

1644
01:21:33,320 --> 01:21:38,200
But I, I think there is so much
more you could do that we just

1645
01:21:38,200 --> 01:21:42,120
don't do it all because I think
we value, we just don't put any

1646
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:44,080
value onto onto any of those
things at all.

1647
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:46,880
And what's something that's got
to leave the industry, guys?

1648
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:50,400
I'll, I'll go first since I
threw you under the bus last

1649
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:53,000
time.
I would say that the the one

1650
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:57,440
thing that I would say that we
have to get rid of is this this

1651
01:21:57,440 --> 01:22:01,240
idea that this one-size-fits-all
paradigm works.

1652
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:02,600
I think I got to get rid of
that.

1653
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:06,080
I don't think it it works.
I don't, I don't think it works

1654
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:08,880
from a people point of view.
I don't think it works from a

1655
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:11,600
geographic point of view.
It it definitely doesn't work

1656
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:13,360
from a jurisdictional point of
view in the various

1657
01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:15,720
jurisdictions we work in.
And it definitely doesn't work

1658
01:22:15,720 --> 01:22:17,600
on a on a company to company
point of view.

1659
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:21,520
Everyone wants to create this
like one magical thing, like

1660
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:24,240
this one magical paradigm.
And I often say, and we talk

1661
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:27,240
about this, right, like this WMC
culture that people want to

1662
01:22:27,240 --> 01:22:30,800
create, you know, like WMC
culture was great, but it might

1663
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:34,520
have been one view is that there
is an artifact of history now,

1664
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:36,040
right?
Like it, it may not be able to

1665
01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:38,920
be replicated in that same way.
So it's that one-size-fits-all

1666
01:22:38,920 --> 01:22:42,760
paradigm I don't think works.
And I think we're as as mining

1667
01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:45,600
companies, I think we're we're
definitely going down the path

1668
01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:49,080
we want to take one approach
because it's that systematic,

1669
01:22:49,120 --> 01:22:51,000
like, you know, a system
thinking in that it's one

1670
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:53,400
system.
I can teach you, you, you and

1671
01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:56,240
everyone understands the system
and it'll work magically, but

1672
01:22:56,240 --> 01:22:58,080
you have, but you're an
individual.

1673
01:22:58,080 --> 01:22:59,840
You're an individual and you're
an individual.

1674
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:03,640
Like your ability to look at
that, like the conversation we

1675
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:06,000
talked about rosters, again, I
have a completely fundamentally

1676
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:08,840
different view on rosters that
you have, right, based on how

1677
01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:12,120
you look at it.
So does the same approach work

1678
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:14,080
for you as it works for me?
I don't think so.

1679
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:16,520
I think we need to have that
leniency in there.

1680
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:20,280
And the way to have that is to
not make IT system or to make

1681
01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:23,320
some part system, but make some
parts of it a little bit more

1682
01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:26,200
human and allow people to kind
of add to it.

1683
01:23:26,480 --> 01:23:29,320
So the idea that I, in a long
winded way, the idea that I

1684
01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:32,920
think should die is this, this
one-size-fits-all paradigm just

1685
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:36,040
don't think works.
And I've actually changed my

1686
01:23:36,040 --> 01:23:38,720
mind just from listening to you.
And I'm actually just going to

1687
01:23:38,720 --> 01:23:42,640
amplify the same comment because
I think it's the problem.

1688
01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:46,360
I don't think we've ever been
more conformist.

1689
01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:50,440
We're living in a time of
massive development of

1690
01:23:50,440 --> 01:23:55,280
diversity, and yet we are making
people the same.

1691
01:23:56,480 --> 01:24:00,080
And that isn't going to work.
One of the starting premises,

1692
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:04,480
all the way back to the abstract
again, is that these are

1693
01:24:04,480 --> 01:24:07,600
different characteristics.
If you don't want to acknowledge

1694
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:10,720
the different, then you are
literally following people into

1695
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:13,400
decline.
We cannot afford to build

1696
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:18,000
businesses of so teams are not
made of the same people, they're

1697
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:21,120
made of compliments.
One of the reasons why Ahmad and

1698
01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:23,480
I started working together.
We're just very different.

1699
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:27,880
There are different things that
we do and want to do that help

1700
01:24:28,040 --> 01:24:32,640
get the complete job done.
That is not a fatal flaw.

1701
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:34,960
That's actually a secret to
building a team.

1702
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:38,000
A-Team is about finding
compliments, not replicating

1703
01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:41,800
yourself.
I think we are incredibly

1704
01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:43,520
conformist.
Yeah.

1705
01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:45,440
I mean, like, you know, we
started this whole premise in

1706
01:24:45,440 --> 01:24:47,800
like, like why did exploration
radio work?

1707
01:24:47,800 --> 01:24:49,800
And I think that's really the
reason, right.

1708
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:52,520
Like I would have a certain view
of looking at things.

1709
01:24:52,520 --> 01:24:54,920
Steve would have a certain view
of looking at things, you know,

1710
01:24:54,920 --> 01:24:59,720
like, was it a a situation where
it was like completely free of

1711
01:24:59,720 --> 01:25:01,800
tension or conflict?
No, like, you know, they're

1712
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:04,640
different.
I jokingly always say this like,

1713
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:06,760
you know, Steve in my
relationship was very much like

1714
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:09,400
if anyone that ever follow
Seinfeld, it was J Seinfeld and

1715
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:13,440
Larry David who, like, you know,
were continuously trying to quit

1716
01:25:13,440 --> 01:25:16,040
the job of writing the show.
There were times where we go.

1717
01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:18,600
I just don't really know how we
can like how we're going to

1718
01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:21,280
create this, right.
And, and I think you got to have

1719
01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:24,000
that healthy level of tension.
I think, you know, I can.

1720
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:26,800
So, so if you're an
organization, so so here's

1721
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:29,080
something that, you know, to
extend that point, you can take

1722
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:31,080
as an organization.
If you're an organization and

1723
01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:35,160
you don't have the ability to
handle like a certain level of

1724
01:25:35,160 --> 01:25:40,280
tension between your your
employees, I'm not sure, you

1725
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:41,920
know, like you got a question
whether you're actually going to

1726
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:44,680
get to something meaningful,
because I think it's like you

1727
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:47,920
need to have that kind of kind
of tension between people to get

1728
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:50,120
somewhere.
So especially in a world like

1729
01:25:50,120 --> 01:25:53,000
exploration where so much is
unknown, like, you know, you

1730
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:55,280
have to have that.
I don't know how you're going to

1731
01:25:55,320 --> 01:25:58,720
be able to do it without that.
I'd frame it just because we

1732
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:03,360
keep going back on each other.
I would frame it that there's

1733
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:05,000
not enough leadership and
there's too, too much

1734
01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:07,080
management.
People are trying to manage into

1735
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:12,200
conformity as opposed to lead
and allow people to just develop

1736
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:14,600
their own idiosyncrasies and
their own personality come

1737
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:17,000
through.
You know, sometimes the secret

1738
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:19,040
sauce.
I'll let's make a compliment

1739
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:24,400
towards my former Co host.
What's special about Ahmed is

1740
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:28,400
his individuality.
What's a pain in the ass about

1741
01:26:28,400 --> 01:26:30,440
Ahmed?
Is it individuality as well?

1742
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:33,560
He does things he wants to do.
He really does.

1743
01:26:33,560 --> 01:26:37,200
That is a special characteristic
and you've got to learn how to

1744
01:26:37,200 --> 01:26:41,600
deal with that or we're both
going to have the exactly the

1745
01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:46,080
same ideas.
I've I've selfishly loved the

1746
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:50,000
responses, but I have to pin you
down for a few rapid fire.

1747
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:52,040
You just got to say the first
thing that kind of comes into

1748
01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:54,000
your mind.
OK, not allowed to justify.

1749
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:55,920
It's just a special part that
you guys wanted to.

1750
01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:58,160
Do this is me managing your
individuality man Perfect.

1751
01:27:00,160 --> 01:27:01,880
Good.
So if I fail this then.

1752
01:27:02,040 --> 01:27:03,560
You're I'm deleting the
individual.

1753
01:27:03,560 --> 01:27:07,320
The podcast's not going up.
Yeah, exactly.

1754
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:11,200
The most memorable.
I'm at the most memorable

1755
01:27:11,240 --> 01:27:13,800
podcast conversation you ever
had over the 10 year journey.

1756
01:27:15,160 --> 01:27:17,960
It was a lady named Samantha, I
forget her last name.

1757
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:20,680
It was about serendipity.
So it was this researcher that

1758
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:24,920
researches serendipity.
It's probably probably one of

1759
01:27:24,920 --> 01:27:28,640
the few times where I've had
like a Skype call or whatever it

1760
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:31,080
was at that time that went 8 or
9 hours.

1761
01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:34,080
Like I just talked to her the
whole day and, and she was based

1762
01:27:34,080 --> 01:27:36,560
in the Netherlands.
And I remember getting off that

1763
01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:40,720
call at, at like, whatever, two
o'clock 3:00 my time and going,

1764
01:27:41,120 --> 01:27:44,400
wow, I just talked to this lady
for a whole day on the phone.

1765
01:27:44,840 --> 01:27:48,120
And yeah, so like, you know,
like that's the one that like,

1766
01:27:48,440 --> 01:27:50,880
yeah, it always sticks with me
about the stuff that I learned

1767
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:53,200
because it was just like
everything that you said was

1768
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:57,840
just completely new to me.
Steve, the one guest you wanted

1769
01:27:57,840 --> 01:28:00,400
to have a conversation with on
the podcast but could never get

1770
01:28:00,400 --> 01:28:05,360
over the line.
So many man, that's opening up

1771
01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:07,440
wounds.
So we really wanted to talk to

1772
01:28:07,440 --> 01:28:12,760
David Lowell and he died.
And the reason that's relevant

1773
01:28:12,800 --> 01:28:16,360
is that we did get to talk to
David Kingston, which is one of

1774
01:28:16,360 --> 01:28:18,360
the more memorable episodes
you'll ever listen to.

1775
01:28:18,360 --> 01:28:22,000
It's a petroleum episode, and he
died after the episode.

1776
01:28:22,840 --> 01:28:26,080
But these are true legends.
These are the sort of people

1777
01:28:26,360 --> 01:28:29,560
that you tell people to go and
watch your own podcast because

1778
01:28:29,560 --> 01:28:33,600
the person is on another plane.
That's so we talk about, you

1779
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:36,400
know, Mark Bennett.
No offense to Mark Bennett, but

1780
01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:38,760
he's one of the most successful
people that you'll ever meet.

1781
01:28:39,040 --> 01:28:44,640
But David Lowell is the man.
You read my next my mind from my

1782
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:49,640
next question I had the most the
most important explorationist in

1783
01:28:50,400 --> 01:28:53,120
modern day era.
The most important

1784
01:28:53,120 --> 01:28:55,960
explorationist minerals.
Explorationist.

1785
01:28:56,320 --> 01:28:58,520
See, this is where I like, you
know, like Steve and I kind of

1786
01:28:58,640 --> 01:28:59,920
kind of differ in that sense,
right?

1787
01:28:59,920 --> 01:29:03,280
Like I, I think, you know, like
David Lowell is definitely from,

1788
01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:06,760
from a, from a scientific point
of view as a geologist, I think

1789
01:29:06,760 --> 01:29:09,800
it's definitely the the person I
would think that the best

1790
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:11,680
explorations right now.
I think it's Friedland.

1791
01:29:11,800 --> 01:29:15,280
I think so too.
Because I like, yeah, his track

1792
01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:18,520
record is, is unbelievable.
It's and I actually think it's

1793
01:29:18,520 --> 01:29:20,320
by a long, long way, like it's
not.

1794
01:29:20,360 --> 01:29:22,840
He's done that with.
Different teams, yeah, different

1795
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:27,440
areas, You know, like clearly he
has like, like, I don't know,

1796
01:29:27,440 --> 01:29:31,200
his technical chops on what he,
I'm sure he has some right.

1797
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:34,320
But but yeah, I think like I
think what he's done is I think

1798
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:38,640
he's incredible.
It's it's I'm staring at the big

1799
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:40,320
score as you're answering that
question.

1800
01:29:40,320 --> 01:29:42,480
And like we could have a whole
nother conversation just about

1801
01:29:42,480 --> 01:29:48,840
Fred then alone, I'm sure.
But I, I, I, I, I want Steve the

1802
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:52,840
most important exploration book
or the book that you read that

1803
01:29:53,160 --> 01:29:56,800
maybe maybe have the biggest
exploration outlook impact on

1804
01:29:56,800 --> 01:29:59,440
you.
So it's behind us as well.

1805
01:29:59,440 --> 01:30:04,480
It's the Copper Mountain.
I, I challenge anyone to read

1806
01:30:04,480 --> 01:30:09,440
that book and imagine being
Jacques Dozy and taking that

1807
01:30:09,440 --> 01:30:15,520
long to get to a discovery
without knowing it's there in

1808
01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:17,880
the 1st place.
It's 28 days.

1809
01:30:18,800 --> 01:30:22,880
That's incredible.
But even even more incredible is

1810
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:28,600
that Freeport redo that journey
knowing it's there with that

1811
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:32,440
length of time in front of them.
I don't think that's even

1812
01:30:32,440 --> 01:30:35,360
possible in the modern age.
I don't think it's even

1813
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:38,600
conceivable in the modern age.
And I don't know who impresses

1814
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:44,160
me more, Rosie or Freeport.
Both of them are on another

1815
01:30:44,160 --> 01:30:48,520
plane.
I'm at the billion dollar mining

1816
01:30:48,520 --> 01:30:51,760
company or or higher that is
most capable of making a

1817
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:56,760
significant discovery.
But you know, so the the true

1818
01:30:56,760 --> 01:30:58,800
Unicorn in the mining space in
that sense.

1819
01:30:59,600 --> 01:31:02,240
Yeah, the mid tier and higher
that is capable.

1820
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:07,880
I mean, I'll go a little bit
different in that, you know,

1821
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:12,200
like what I'm interested in is
like, I may not name one, but

1822
01:31:12,200 --> 01:31:15,120
what I'm interested in is
companies like like Cobalt or,

1823
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:18,000
or things like that, that are
trying to do something

1824
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:22,240
different, right?
And I think I'm always

1825
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:26,000
interested in that because I, I
look at it from the lens that

1826
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:29,800
I'm, I'm, I'm sure 99% of them
are not going to be successful,

1827
01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:33,320
right?
But what I'm interested in is,

1828
01:31:33,320 --> 01:31:36,560
is there's someone that can come
out and set up a new paradigm,

1829
01:31:37,200 --> 01:31:38,680
right?
And then, and then how does that

1830
01:31:38,680 --> 01:31:41,560
happen?
Like how, how do we go from the

1831
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:45,440
point of looking at exploration
like a certain way to completely

1832
01:31:45,440 --> 01:31:47,240
changing it and looking at it a
certain way?

1833
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:50,320
And so I think this company's
like, you know, like, I know

1834
01:31:50,320 --> 01:31:53,320
Cobalt has its distract like
detractors and it has all of

1835
01:31:53,320 --> 01:31:55,880
these kind of issues of whether
they're true exploration company

1836
01:31:55,880 --> 01:31:57,760
or not.
But I think what they're doing

1837
01:31:57,760 --> 01:32:00,600
that's interesting is that
they're just able to access a

1838
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:04,400
like a, a source of capital that
I don't think other people have

1839
01:32:04,400 --> 01:32:07,160
ever had.
And so, so if they can combine

1840
01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:09,280
the source of capital, which is
really the thing that's like

1841
01:32:09,280 --> 01:32:10,680
hurting a lot of other
companies.

1842
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:15,000
And they can combine it with the
fact that they that they, if

1843
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:17,880
they take a longer term view,
which I think they're somewhat

1844
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:19,920
struggling with, which is why
they've gone down the path that

1845
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:22,280
they have, then I think that
would be an interesting kind of

1846
01:32:22,280 --> 01:32:28,000
company to then to then see.
Steve that they're the most

1847
01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:31,360
gripping discovery story of all
time.

1848
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:36,480
Look, I'm talking to somebody
who's almost obsessed with the

1849
01:32:36,480 --> 01:32:41,480
discovery of Norelskan Talnak.
It's been a life's work almost

1850
01:32:41,480 --> 01:32:43,520
to put it together because it's
not something that's in the

1851
01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:47,360
public domain.
It's the deposit style I focus

1852
01:32:47,360 --> 01:32:53,800
on, but it's just, it's almost
from another era it it feels

1853
01:32:53,800 --> 01:32:56,200
like.
It feels like a Columbus, kind

1854
01:32:56,200 --> 01:32:57,160
of like.
Story right?

1855
01:32:57,200 --> 01:32:59,720
It does.
It feels like it's too

1856
01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:01,920
inspirational.
And I think that's the same with

1857
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:04,040
the discovery of Grasberg and
Itzburg.

1858
01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:08,720
People will immediately go, no,
we're not doing it because it's

1859
01:33:08,720 --> 01:33:12,680
too aspirational from our
current starting point when

1860
01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:16,400
we're getting on a plane and
flying off in our in our orange

1861
01:33:16,640 --> 01:33:21,000
suits, we just can't imagine how
we can go from there to there.

1862
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:25,560
Are either of those two the best
site visits you've done as well,

1863
01:33:25,680 --> 01:33:27,160
or have you got a different
answer to that question?

1864
01:33:27,240 --> 01:33:30,960
So this is actually one of my
how long we got here.

1865
01:33:32,280 --> 01:33:34,040
This is one of my favorite
topics.

1866
01:33:34,520 --> 01:33:38,280
There are you can't read your
way to the success.

1867
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:41,560
There's so much to read and it's
easy to imagine, but you've got

1868
01:33:41,560 --> 01:33:43,240
to get off your ass and do
stuff.

1869
01:33:43,640 --> 01:33:46,840
And so I'm it's been to Narelsk.
I've had the fortune to both

1870
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:49,000
work in Western Siberia and be
at Narelsk.

1871
01:33:49,640 --> 01:33:53,560
There's, if you see a super
giant, like something so octave

1872
01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:55,880
risky is 53 times the size of
Nova.

1873
01:33:56,480 --> 01:34:01,280
OK, you're not looking at a
comparable base.

1874
01:34:01,280 --> 01:34:03,200
No offence to Nova.
I love the deposit.

1875
01:34:03,520 --> 01:34:06,720
You're looking at a very special
moment in your own personal

1876
01:34:06,720 --> 01:34:08,880
life, in your own personal
development.

1877
01:34:09,400 --> 01:34:11,880
So clearly that's what I call a
teacher.

1878
01:34:12,240 --> 01:34:15,160
So I believe that there are all
bodies that are teachers and it

1879
01:34:15,160 --> 01:34:19,120
isn't necessarily all about
grade, although that's got to be

1880
01:34:19,120 --> 01:34:22,600
something like it could be
something just it could be

1881
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:25,680
diversity.
So a couple of days ago someone

1882
01:34:25,680 --> 01:34:30,080
posted something on the Internet
in Russian on Narelsk and it was

1883
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:33,680
a phenomenal piece of work.
I went to the bother of

1884
01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:35,680
translating that in the last few
days.

1885
01:34:35,960 --> 01:34:39,840
So what I did is went through a
OCR followed by automatic,

1886
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:42,880
followed by manually went
through every single line to

1887
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:47,440
translate this just to give it
to people so they so they could

1888
01:34:47,440 --> 01:34:49,800
see the diversity of things that
was in there.

1889
01:34:50,400 --> 01:34:52,160
And I got an e-mail back from
someone this morning.

1890
01:34:52,160 --> 01:34:55,240
They went, Oh my God, that's
different.

1891
01:34:55,240 --> 01:35:00,880
I mean, I know, imagine if you
could have seen these like I've

1892
01:35:00,880 --> 01:35:05,040
seen these with my own eyes.
I honestly, I wish you could

1893
01:35:05,040 --> 01:35:07,800
have seen through my eyes
because you wouldn't have the

1894
01:35:07,800 --> 01:35:13,120
same opinions about these sort
of things.

1895
01:35:13,120 --> 01:35:17,600
You've got to go and do this
because it's teaching you and we

1896
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:22,120
do the best we can with
teaching, but go, you just got

1897
01:35:22,120 --> 01:35:23,640
to go.
It will change your life.

1898
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:27,640
I mean, that's so seriously that
you should pay for it yourself

1899
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:30,400
if that's your only option
because it will change your

1900
01:35:30,400 --> 01:35:31,760
life.
Who is the guy you interviewed

1901
01:35:31,760 --> 01:35:34,880
once on expiration radio and he
was renowned for doing these

1902
01:35:34,880 --> 01:35:37,600
site trips and coordinate the
order.

1903
01:35:37,680 --> 01:35:41,720
Does he still do them or?
He's retired now, but but yeah,

1904
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:43,640
I mean, I think that's like,
yeah, like that's why I wanted

1905
01:35:43,640 --> 01:35:47,080
to kind of get Mike, right?
Because I think my, I mean to

1906
01:35:47,080 --> 01:35:51,360
like Steve's point, you know,
like, yeah, I had studied

1907
01:35:51,360 --> 01:35:53,960
nurals.
I studied mafic systems for a

1908
01:35:53,960 --> 01:35:56,080
long time.
And then when I went there, I

1909
01:35:56,080 --> 01:35:59,400
think I came back with an
understanding that overlapped

1910
01:35:59,440 --> 01:36:02,640
maybe 10% of what I knew before
going there, right?

1911
01:36:02,640 --> 01:36:07,320
Because when I went there, I was
part of an international

1912
01:36:07,320 --> 01:36:10,440
consortium.
But I consciously made a

1913
01:36:10,440 --> 01:36:12,440
decision to actually not hang
out with those guys.

1914
01:36:12,440 --> 01:36:15,680
And I spend most of my time with
the exploration and the mind

1915
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:18,680
geologist and people that worked
at neuros because I wanted to

1916
01:36:18,680 --> 01:36:21,040
figure out what they how did
they look at this whole body.

1917
01:36:21,400 --> 01:36:24,040
And the way they looked at it
was completely, fundamentally

1918
01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:25,920
different to how we looked at it
in the West.

1919
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:29,120
So the classic is the chief
geologist of Octobrisky is which

1920
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:33,160
is the world's biggest mind.
I'm not sure if he knows what

1921
01:36:33,160 --> 01:36:36,760
he's doing, but my God does he
know more than anyone else.

1922
01:36:36,960 --> 01:36:40,880
That dude could talk your head
off for weeks and you will

1923
01:36:40,880 --> 01:36:42,560
learn.
But you're also he's got some

1924
01:36:42,560 --> 01:36:45,280
crazy ideas.
But the bottom line is the man

1925
01:36:45,280 --> 01:36:46,880
works on the world's biggest
deposit.

1926
01:36:46,960 --> 01:36:50,440
That's like going to Olympic
Dam, but it's 1 1/2 times the

1927
01:36:50,440 --> 01:36:54,200
size of Olympic Dam.
That level of complexity, you

1928
01:36:54,200 --> 01:36:57,760
could spend your whole life
there and not touch the surface.

1929
01:36:57,960 --> 01:37:03,800
That's not the same kind of
experience that some deposits

1930
01:37:03,800 --> 01:37:05,800
give you.
Now you can do it with small

1931
01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:08,080
deposits.
So the real answer to that is so

1932
01:37:08,400 --> 01:37:11,320
to answer that question fully,
the people who will be listening

1933
01:37:11,320 --> 01:37:13,000
to this and go, but I can't go
to Norelsk.

1934
01:37:13,240 --> 01:37:17,280
Not only is Russia not an option
for me, but actually foreigners

1935
01:37:17,280 --> 01:37:19,280
can't visit Norelsk in the 1st
place.

1936
01:37:19,280 --> 01:37:21,360
They never could.
They never have been able to.

1937
01:37:21,360 --> 01:37:23,000
You have to get.
There is a thing over the

1938
01:37:23,000 --> 01:37:25,840
documentary film crew and then.
Yeah, or in my case, you work in

1939
01:37:25,840 --> 01:37:27,920
an alliance with Norelsk in
Russia.

1940
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:31,760
So you can't just choose that.
So it seems unfair to name

1941
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:33,920
something that the majority of
the world is listening to this

1942
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:36,720
podcast to like I can't do this.
So you got to come up with

1943
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:40,720
something that's easy, that
there's a deposits like Manali

1944
01:37:40,720 --> 01:37:43,840
which sit in Zambia, which have
so much complexity in such a

1945
01:37:43,840 --> 01:37:45,920
source space.
I call them teachers.

1946
01:37:46,840 --> 01:37:48,280
It's actually a non economic
deposit.

1947
01:37:48,800 --> 01:37:51,880
It doesn't sound like a very
good teacher, but it is a

1948
01:37:51,880 --> 01:37:56,680
microcosm of Nurelsk and that's
the best that we can do.

1949
01:37:57,840 --> 01:37:59,840
There are there are options in
Australia, you just got to

1950
01:37:59,840 --> 01:38:02,600
constantly go.
Not everything is the same, so

1951
01:38:03,120 --> 01:38:05,920
let me explain it fully.
The third largest deposit of

1952
01:38:05,920 --> 01:38:08,760
this type is Jinchuan.
It's an awful teacher.

1953
01:38:09,720 --> 01:38:16,360
Shotcreted immediately after
production, seismically active.

1954
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:19,200
Oh my God, it's, it's just not a
teacher.

1955
01:38:19,640 --> 01:38:22,760
There's just nothing about the
way it's mine that's going to

1956
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:25,320
teach anybody that fundamentally
changes how you work.

1957
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:28,440
So there is a difference.
And I know it's a nuance that

1958
01:38:28,440 --> 01:38:32,080
I've learnt through experience,
but I do pass it on because the

1959
01:38:32,080 --> 01:38:35,720
one thing about experience that
you want to pass on is how could

1960
01:38:35,720 --> 01:38:39,920
I shortcut your learning?
Well, don't do this is the

1961
01:38:39,920 --> 01:38:43,240
simple answer.
Do this, don't do this and maybe

1962
01:38:43,240 --> 01:38:46,160
you will not listen.
Trust me, I've got teenagers.

1963
01:38:46,960 --> 01:38:50,120
People don't listen, but just
really stress that point.

1964
01:38:50,440 --> 01:38:53,600
If you get an opportunity to do
the big things, pay it yourself.

1965
01:38:54,080 --> 01:38:57,760
And if you can't, look for the
little microcosms that teach

1966
01:38:57,760 --> 01:38:59,240
you.
But it isn't everything.

1967
01:39:01,320 --> 01:39:03,880
The passion you guys have is is
palpable.

1968
01:39:03,880 --> 01:39:06,360
I love it and I am sure our
audience will just sort of

1969
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:08,400
gobble this one up.
So really appreciate it guys.

1970
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:09,480
Thank you.
Thank you.

1971
01:39:09,480 --> 01:39:10,680
No worries.
Thanks for having us.

1972
01:39:12,040 --> 01:39:13,280
Mate, how good was that
conversation?

1973
01:39:13,280 --> 01:39:15,760
I hope all the money miners out
there loved that one as much as

1974
01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:20,040
I did and it is all thanks to
our fantastic partners Rounded

1975
01:39:20,040 --> 01:39:22,160
Cross, Boundary Energy and Sandy
Ground Support.

1976
01:39:22,840 --> 01:39:24,240
Good to read money minors.
Good to read.

1977
01:39:26,240 --> 01:39:29,080
Now remember, I'm an idiot.
JD is an idiot.

1978
01:39:29,440 --> 01:39:31,520
If you thought any of this was
anything other than

1979
01:39:31,520 --> 01:39:34,200
entertainment, you're an idiot.
And you need to read out a

1980
01:39:34,200 --> 01:39:34,680
disclaimer.